The Hebrew Roots Movement Is NOT Original Christianity

By Theodore Shoebat

The Hebrew Roots Movement is NOT original and historic Christianity. I did a video on this subject:

If the Hebrew Roots Movement is original Christianity, then where are the historic Hebrew Roots churches in Syria and Egypt?

In the Scriptures it says, “The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.” (Acts 15:23)

So we know that the Apostles put churches in Syria, so when we go to Syria to see the oldest Christian communities, how come none of them are Hebrew Roots?

You will say that that came as a result of Constantine, but show in the historical record, when and how the Hebrew Roots were replaced. You will not find it, because there is none.

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P.S, Note From Walid Shoebat
Be careful, there is a difference between the Hebrw Roots Movement from simply Christians being Messianic. For example, Zola Levitt (who passed away) is Messianic and his teaching is different from what we call Hebrew Roots teaching. There is no problem in connecting the relationship between our faith and the Jewish faith, but the Hebrew Roots Movement is going downhill into denial of the Trinity.

But much of what is said has already been documented in much of the Church history. Pesach (Passover) is Pasch and is known as the Paschal Mystery and has always been part of the Christian fabric. The Hebrew Roots gets into all sorts of dangerous theological errors.

Some in the HRM are way over the edge in their denial of the Trinity and seem to know Jesus only in the flesh. As we will see, this movement is an idea, a view, an attitude, or a philosophy; a shared concept that Jewish traditions and Judaism are far superior for the church, a sure fire way to a deeper sanctification and with some, possibly even salvation.

It’s hard to define the HRM because it is so diverse and made up of so many disparate groups and individuals. It’s a moving target. It’s a vast smorgasbord of everything from scholarship, as in the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, to so-called Third Questers, to individuals practicing subjective pop (make-it-up-as-you-go) Judaism. It can even include the medieval mystical Kabbalah, with its esoteric numerology. More often than not there are no distinctions made between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant or between the Bible and the Talmud. This movement can impose legalism with a vengeance or in some instances may simply suggest Jewish practices that they say will give us deeper insight and understanding as well as make us more “authentic” believers.

Here, then, is a loose definition of the Hebrew Roots Movement. It is a very modern movement that insists that we must resurrect first-century Judaism (our Jewish Roots) and the milieu and lifestyle of first-century Jews and impose them on both Jewish and non-Jewish believers. This is not just an academic study to better understand Scripture and its setting but is rather a movement of restoration that claims that the church has moved off its Jewish foundation and must return to a more Jewish way of life to be authentic.

Although there is great benefit in studying the archaeology, geography, sociology, religion, and customs of the ancient biblical world, it does not follow that we must reinstitute and copy those times, replete with language, customs, and even dress.

It is obvious in much of the HRM that it’s not just the study of the first century for interpretation, information, and illumination that carries the day but keeping the traditions and practices of the Jewish Talmud, which was completed long after Jesus in the years 400-500 ( The Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion , Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York, 1965, p. 374). Actually, there are two Talmuds, namely the Babylonian Talmud and the Palestinian Talmud. The Talmuds vary in many of their customs, traditions, and practices.

Jewish believer Stephen Katz expresses his concerns when he says, “Much of the Jewish Roots Movement is actually based on later Jewish/rabbinic tradition. More importantly, the question of whether Gentiles need to add Jewish lifestyle and return to Jewish roots was settled by the Jerusalem Council described in Acts 15. The remarkable news of the Gospel is that, in Y’shua, Jews and Gentiles have direct access to God” (“The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns,” March 1, 2001).

In practice, many promoters of the HRM draw their content more from Talmudic Judaism than from Old or New Testament Judaism.

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  • Rapheal Sebastian

    Oh dear, Ted. All the Jehoshua, Yahshua, Heshua, Yohshua, Yeshahua etc etc etc spellers are going to bust a vein!

    • Steve Smith

      This Jewish roots thing Only goes back to the 1970s,We have the original why make up a new one . and you are right these guys will have a hissy fit.

      • royal

        Jewish roots goes all the way back to Genesis

  • Steve Smith

    Here ARE Real Jews chanting in Moscow Russa. The guy pretending to be a Jew IS TOO white bread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh4yxMzc70o

    • Steve Smith

      compare this Orthodox Christian chant the Jewish one, we get this directly from the Temple and the Jewish worship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R79JGv46CM this is a Russian Church with a Greek Cantor.

  • Stephen Dalton

    Lynn, the Bible alone can’t tell us everything about early Christian worship. There just wouldn’t be enough room in the New Testament to describe it. Your description of it is basically reading Protestantism into it. Every Protestant I’ve ever read on this subject always does this. The only problem with this is Protestantism didn’t come into being until 1517. Every Protestant sect interprets early Christian worship according to its own biases. Funny how all their worship services tend to resemble a stripped down Catholic service.

  • Steve Smith

    We all know that, but what is your point. Jews and gentile Christians worshiped together as one body. Ted made the point, that most if not all our Orthodox Traditions come from Jewish practice.

    • royal

      Well I think you hit the nail on the head ….this is TRADITIONS……OF ALL KINDS have a place, when you go in to a ice cream shop and you see all the flavors and colors. No matter what kind you pick…..its still ice cream………

      • Julie LaBrecque

        The question is: do all the flavors of ice cream being offered contain the original ingredients?

        • royal

          Your point , is well taking

  • Steve Smith

    Lynn, if you knew Greek and read the Church Fathers then you would know that several mention a deposed Deacon named Nicolas. Irenaus, Hipiolytus, Epiphanius, and Theodoret.
    To make the claim that the Church fell into hyper clericalism based on your rendering of the word Nicolas is plain silly.

    • Stephen Dalton

      This Nicolas claim is quite common in some evangelical and cult circles. I heard it 40 years ago.

      • royal

        How is it that you call evangelical a cult .Walid has all ways been apart of the evangelicals, as well as the hedrew movement. ? Zola Levt, Jewich Voice ….so to call the hebrew roots and the evangelicals a cult is unfounded

        • Stephen Dalton

          royal, I didn’t call evangelicals a cult in that post. I merely said the Nicolas claim was quite common in some evangelical and cult circles. I know that to be true because I once traveled in cult and evangelical circles.

  • shoebat

    “What you have proven is at most that the form of worship found in Syria and Egypt are likely consistent with very ancient forms of Christian worship,”

    Explain to us why they are consistent even though they are in different continents. Your complaining as I can tell, but you so far offered us no explanation. You tried by saying:

    “but not that they represent a proto-form of original Christian worship.”

    So what was the proto-form? Was it this:

    Then you write: “The best source for that is the simply Bible itself, and the consistent testimony of the New Testament is that the believers met predominately in homes”

    Then it must be this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqED34nuSSc O I see, its your church you attend is the pro to-type, right?

  • Stephen Dalton

    c75, the Jewish Christian communities were absorbed in to the wider Christian Church. The synagogues didn’t want Christians around, and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Both these events made Jewish identity irrelevant to these folks, so they just blended into the now largely Gentile populated church.

  • Stephen Dalton

    Typical, uninformed, Jack Chick like smear.

  • Stephen Dalton

    So why don’t you show any evidence that you learned anything from them?

  • Paper napkin

    Lots of denominations so the issue is not so much what came first, because we know that the book of Acts came first and that all the believers were Jewish until the Ethiopian eunuch and officially Cornelius which triggered the church council of Acts 15. The most important thing to the apostles was to be Biblical. In Revelation 1-3 the symbol for the gentile churches are a menorah which is telling. From Christ’s perspective this would be because they had Jewish origins and were grafted into the Jewish olive tree.
    That said, the ultimate issue is if people are saved- and if the early church was the same as Roman Catholicism then we have nothing to worry about. But if the doctrines of salvation in the Catholic Church do differ, then the introduction of Roman Catholicism would have over time altered the belief structures of the prior churches. This is fact did happen through the centuries which was the very reason for Luther’s 95 point thesis.
    To combat Luther’s thesis, one of the things the Catholic Church did was to convene the Council of Trent to codify the beliefs of the Catholics. In this writing, they say that salvation is determined by the Catholic church, not by Ephesians 2:8-9, that it is by faith that we are saved. Trent says that those who believe Ephesians 2 are anathema. The Vatican has never recanted that council as non Biblical.
    The point being that as idol worship and iconoclastic forms of worship did in fact pervade through the centuries into the faith through the strong arm of Catholicism, we can be sure that that was not the faith and structure that Mark delivered to Egypt, or else there would be no reason for people like Luther to eventually step up when they could.
    I know you are aware of the countless believers that were killed by the militant CC because they wanted to follow the simple teachings of the Scriptures. Don’t argue as an apologist for Catholicism because even their current doctrine of faith is cursed (Galatians 1:9), argue as an apologist for Jesus. Taking away from the Jewishness of the scriptures is a red flag being that was the hallmark of the CC through the ages who were proponents of killing Jews. Can’t tell me Mark delivered that kind of thinking to the church in Egypt can you?
    Again, read Revelation, it was a menorah that symbolized the churches, pure Jewish- as was Jesus and Mary. The point is salvation by faith, not salvation by denomination. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews, so let’s keep the focus. Christ took down the wall of division between Jew and Gentile to be one new man so don’t raise it back up again by trying to recreate Catholicism as what the original church was or else you will be fighting against what He has done and the 1700 year history of the Catholic Church itself. We are all one in Christ IF we follow the faith handed down in the Scriptures!

  • Stephen Dalton

    Ryan, the Judaizers, whom you praise so much, wanted to bring people back into a yoke of bondage. Paul hated their evil ways and said on one occasion that he wished they would castrate themselves!
    You object to Jews coming to faith by converting to Christianity? Newsflash sonny! Everybody who enters the church has to do that!
    What you call the early church’s Anti-Semitism is merely the Church’s struggle against Judaizing. Books like Rabbi Newman’s “Jewish Influence On Christian Reform Movements” show that Jews inside and outside the Church were very aggressive in pushing Mosaic and Talmudic notions upon Christian people. That’s why so many of those early Christian leaders were so harsh toward them. They didn’t want to see the yoke of bondage on their fellow Christians.
    “most are your allies, not enemies,” Wrong Ryan, you and your fellow Hebrew Roots devotees are pushing something that has been a declared heresy since 50 AD. Please dump this sectarian foolishness and take up the historical Christian faith.

    • Axios!

    • Ryan

      Is following God’s appointed times like the weekly Sabbath, the Passover (the actual date our blessed Savior died for the sins of the world), Pentecost (the date the Spirit fell on believers), and commemorating the fall feasts (Jesus’s return) sinful? Think and mull over it. If it was right and good for our Savior to participate and observe, it is right and good for us. Oh man, you mean I have to praise and worship the good Lord a few extra days a year, feel his presence, be blessed and remember the awesome and amazing things he has done for us, and will continue to do, then yes, what a yoke of bondage I want to stay in.

  • Stephen Dalton

    royal, the Hebrew Roots movement may be good for the Jews, but it isn’t good for the Church. The Jerusalem council rejected the Mosaic Law as binding on Christians in 50 AD as a yoke of bondage. The early Post-Apostolic Fathers preached against it, and all the Post-Nicene fathers did likewise. You may think that they don’t make demands to follow the Mosaic Law, but history proves time after time, this is what eventually happens. There’s no way to separate one part of the law from another part of it.

    • royal

      Your right I had the messianic movement confused with the hebrew roots movement. ?.I have never heard of the hebrew roots before….

  • Stephen Dalton

    JB, please read the early church fathers. You might find out the log is in your eye.

    • Woody

      He won’t do that because the truth resides there and he is not interested in truth despite Jesus’ Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” Reminds me of the brilliant Scott Hahn who hated the Catholic Church until he began to read the early Church Fathers and then, keeping an open mind, exclaimed, “Goodness. I am in the wrong church!” See “Rome Sweet Home.” by Dr. Hahn.

  • It boggles the mind to think these Halloween Jews pretend that this is how Christ worshipped. Why not ask an authentic Jew? If you can be bothered to do so, look for a man called Deacon A. James Bernstein. Bernstein is a Jew, and one who was schooled in the deepest aspects of Judaism. Through studying the New Testament, he became an Evangelical Christian, but wanted to marry his Judaism into it, so he founded Jews For Jesus. After coming across the Church Fathers, he realized his error, and is now an Eastern Orthodox deacon.

    • Loren Elifrits

      Actually he is a priest now. He is pastor at St Paul’s in Brier Washington.
      http://www.stpaul-orthodox.org/calendar.phphttp://
      http://www.antiochian.org/biography-fr-james-bernstein

      • Wonderfu news, Loren! I read his posts on Facebook, but didn’t catch that he was elevated. Axios, indeed!

    • royal

      Keep watching he might find anotber he likes…. and your reference to Helloween Jews pretend that this is how Christ worshipped You are Jew baiting, and you should not go down that road

      • Ah, Jew baiting. Real Jews who read this stuff are ready to rip the heads off these poseurs. My words, in comparison, are very, very mild.

        • royal

          You didn’t answer the question, about the ..Helloween and the Jew comment. I need to make a clarification, misunderstood, term hebrew roots, I throughwe were talking about the Messianic teaching, which Walid was very active in.a word mixup………now answer the question

          • How does one answer the delusional? The Hebrew roots people are frauds. Jews For Jesus are frauds. Someone like Zola Levitt was a Christian with Jewish ethnic roots who actually believed in Christ in a Trinitarian form. If he died an Evangelical, from our point-of-view it means nothing, as they are of a cult which is one of the many spinoffs of Calvinism, itself an evil idea.

            So no, even those who call themselves Messianics are, perhaps, good people recognize Christ in most aspects. That doesn’t make any difference. Christ established one Church. All others who hijack His name do so as a heresy.

            Also, never, ever demand anything from me like you’re some mall cop. You merely didn’t like my previous answer. Now, you have a more fleshed out answer. If you want to learn something rather than insist on peddling rubbish, say so.

          • royal

            If you won’t so pompous,, you wouldn’t be so pitiful. And make on mistake you are pitiful. As far as you teaching me, that’s a laugh…I have no idea what Religion you are , the church of self love………no thanks

          • I won’t lose much sleep over that. You’ve shown what you know.

      • Stephen Dalton

        royal, I happen to be descended from a Marrano Jewish family,

    • Kkdgrace

      I saw a talk he gave on you-tube, about his conversion and his journey to Orthodoxy. He compared the liturgical services in the Orthodox church to that which was present in early Judaism- making the point that God instructed Moses on the pattern of the Temple and the form of earthly worship pleasing to him, mimicking the worship that takes place in Heaven. Very fascinating. I downloaded his book “Surprised by Jesus” last night in order to learn more of his story and the conclusions he’s drawn. The more I read of the Early Church Fathers and listen to/read apologetics for the Orthodox faith, the more I see how shaky is the foundation of Protestantism on which I’ve stood. I think it would be good for every Protestant to dig into the history of the Faith and examine the beliefs they hold so firmly..instead of unquestionably accepting what they’ve been told throughout they’re lives. I’d much rather have as much of the truth as I can possibly find instead of mindlessly believing that the status quo is the truth and nothing but the truth. It’s a shame that it’s taken me this long in life to “discover” that factoid.

      • kkdgrace, you have nothing to be ashamed of, and are welcomed as a brother. No one knows what they are not taught. This has been the evil of reading the Bible blindly and pretending to know, as so many frauds who haunt the comments sections on Shoebat.com do. When reality hits, you realize that things become clear, not hidden in a cult-like manner. The further you delve into the Church Fathers, the more profound things become.

  • Steve Smith

    I’m Russian Orthodox, not Catholic but catholic a part of New Rome not Old Rome.

  • Steve Smith

    I’m Orthodox, not Catholic and we have a unbroken line to the Apostolic Church.
    We have people from Israel at my church that can trace the family back to St PHOTINI the woman at Jacob’s well.

  • Lynn Derrick

    Many were Hebrew, many were Gentile.

    Here are some Jewish and non-Jewish church fathers, in the Bible itself:

    Acts 13
    “1 Now there were in Antioch, in the local church, prophets and teachers: Barnabas and Simeon, who was called Niger, and Lucius the Cyrenian, and Manaen, the foster brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
    2 And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting…”

    Barnabas was a Levite, but a Cyprian by birth (4:36).

    Niger (meaning black) was probably of African origin.

    Lucius was a Cyrenian from Cyrene in North Africa. He was a Jew if he was the Lucius in Rom. 16:21, a kinsman of Paul.

    Manean the foster brother of Herod: Herod was governmentally related to the Romans; hence, Manaen, Herod’s foster brother, must have been Europeanized. It was the Lord’s sovereign doing that the foster brother of John the Baptist’s murderer became one of the leading functioning members in the church.

    Of course Saul was a Jew born in Tarsus and taught by Gamaliel according to the law of Moses (22:3). The five prophets and teachers recorded here were composed of Jews and Gentiles, each having a different background, education, and status. This indicates that the church is composed of all races and classes of people regardless of their background, and that the spiritual gifts and functions given to the members of the Body of Christ are not based on their natural status or cultural or historical bias.

    I still appreciate what some of the Hebrew Roots brothers have brought out, especially in understanding the depth and rich fabric of the feasts, the shmittahs, and some of the rabbinical histories, history of psalming, and so forth. Sure they may over do some things, but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. They are God’s children, and God has revealed some things to them.

    • royal

      Thank you for your responses …and I agree that the hedrew root movement has been very helpful teaching Old Testament along side the New

      • shoebat

        Be careful, there is a difference between the Hebrw Roots Movement from simply being Messianic. For example, Zola Levitt is Messianic and his is a good teaching connecting the relationship between our faith and the Jewish faith, but the Hebrew Roots Movement is going downhill into denial of the Trinity, so be careful Royal. Always examine the fruits.

        • royal

          Thank you, I was getting off track, the Jewish roots is new to me thats why I throught it was the messianic, with a new name..Iam sorry thanks again. I dont watch television evangelist any more not after zola went home . isn’t that the first time you started teaching was on zola

        • Stephen Dalton

          The Talmud(s) are merely the traditions of the elders mentioned in the Gospels. Jesus said their traditions made the word of God of none effect, so why bother practicing them?

      • royal

        I need to correct my self I was confused, ar the name heberw roots, I throught that , we were talking about messianic teaching.Walid explained the difference

      • Julie LaBrecque

        There exists a Church today that teaches Old Testament along with the New, and provides the Jewish roots of our faith: The Catholic Church.

        • royal

          Mine to, see we are sisters

    • royal

      In my response i was not familiar with hebrew roots, only the messianic movement, I was confused.

  • Steve Smith

    This Is a Russian Altar, notice the seven oil lamps.

  • AnthonyM

    Thanks for the video, I have never heard of Hebrew Roots movement before. Is that is what is meant by Judiaziers?
    The first one singing did the Spock ‘Live long and prosper’ sign with both hands. Hard to take that seriously.

    • Stephen Dalton

      Tony, that Spock sign thing is a genuine part of Jewish worship. Leonard Nimoy borrowed it to create the Mr. Spock character.

      • AnthonyM

        Amazing, thanks. Looked furhter and found this on Wiki: In his autobiography I Am Not Spock, Nimoy wrote that he based it on the Priestly Blessing performed by Jewish Kohanim with both hands, thumb to thumb in this same position, representing the Hebrew letter Shin (ש), which has three upward strokes similar to the position of the thumb and fingers in the salute. The letter Shin here stands for El Shaddai, meaning “Almighty (God)”. Nimoy wrote that when he was a child, his grandfather took him to an Orthodoxsynagogue. There he saw the blessing performed and was impressed by it.

    • Loren Elifrits

      Anthony, Leonard Nimoy was a practicing jew, and this is exactly where he got the ‘live long and prosper sign. Here he is taking about it .
      http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=leonard+nimoy&qpvt=leonard+nimoy&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=EC20110B11300DB64DBEEC20110B11300DB64DBE

  • Stephen Dalton

    JJ, the epistles of Paul (especially II Cor. 3, Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians, and Hebrews) make it plain that the New Covenant replaced the Mosaic one. We believe Moses because his covenant was a pedagogue that pointed to Christ. Christ is the end of the law. Jesus’s blood was greater than the lambs and other animals who were sacrificed for the remission of sins. And please, don’t tell us that we’re immoral because we don’t keep the Torah. There’s no way for anyone to keep the Mosaic law today. The Mosaic system was nailed to the cross in 33 AD, and the temple and the priesthood finally vanished in 70 AD. And that includes the Ten Commandments, as taught by the Mosaic law. The law of Moses was an administration of death because it only demanded the keeping of the letter of the law. The New Covenant says we must keep the spirit of the law. Jesus told us how in the Sermon on The Mount how this was to be done. Free yourself from the Mosaic and Talmudic legalism, and embrace the New Covenant JJ.

  • Stephen Dalton

    And lets hope that train goes further down the line until it’s out of our sight!

  • AnthonyM

    Theodore asked for links to primary source documents, not an Internet link to someone alleging what others have said. Hay did not verify the attribution of the statements, so the reader does not know if the quotes were made up, or copied from another site that made them up. Just because something is placed between “quotes” does not mean it is accurate.

    The quote from St Augustine is false. Confessions 12.14 does not include ‘(the Jews)’ as you stated. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/augustine/confessions.xv.html

    • Ryan

      “The Spirit of God who wrote these things by his servant Moses did not wish these words to be understood like this. He did not wish to have it understood as you say, but as we say.” To them, O God of us all, thyself being the judge, I give answer.

      Who is then the people who are misunderstanding what Moses had to say? How could it not be anyone else than the Jews?

    • Woody

      Ah, very good; sounded so un-Augustine to me. Thanks

  • shoebat

    Really? Who did they kill?

  • shoebat

    I think that you totally misunderstood me. All the posts were not necessary. I never said that I was against house church when we are persecuted and underground. This was always the case during persecution, but from as early churches, but even then, take a look to see how they practiced church:

    http://shoebat.com/2014/04/11/why-catholics-having-icons-is-right-and-evangelicals-not-having-icons-is-wrong/

  • royal

    What movement are you referring to.?

  • John James

    Hebrew Roots is a term coined by men. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It in no way precludes us from the need to >keepkeepkeeping>(Colossians 2:16 Let no Pagan therefore judge you about food and drink, or about the distinctions of festivals and new moons and Sabbaths..)
    Then, as it is today, the “Religion” that dominates the region will judge you for keeping His Feasts, His Sabbath days and His commandments on food. Paul is telling believers in Yhwh not to be concerned with the judgments of those that do not keep His commandments.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Who controls the heavens? Maybe you know better the He?

    • Stephen Dalton

      Blood moons! Oh, I’m so scared my knees are knocking!

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    Thank you.

    • *golf clap*

    • royal

      You take pride in your sharp and fiery Tongue……

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        Of course I do. Especially when it is the truth. Will you go reply to Walid? Or choose to keep replying to me with your nonsense?

        • royal

          No I done with you

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Could you share with us ‘the ones that didn’t resemble them’? Do you know any Church history? Any clue what heresies they dealt with?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why are there many abuses in the protestant clergy that are married?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus already reigns. “He must reign until all he has put all his enemies under his feet.” 1 Cor 15:25

  • shoebat

    Interesting,

    You see my question above but instead of answering it, you ask questions: how can you deny …?

    Then you make statements and opinions as to how Central America was taken and you went on and on without giving a historic quote?

    How come so many people say things without any backing?

    Now, I don’t want to waste time, so unless you can give quotes and evidence (compete evidence) to what you accuse, there is no need to entertain an opinion, is there?

    So lets not waste time, ok?

  • shoebat

    ” And a Vicar of Christ? That is so against scripture …”

    Isn’t a “vicar” a “representative” or “deputy” of Christ on earth?

    Doesn’t the Church represent God on earth? Aren’t you also an “ambassador” of Christ?

    So let me ask, putting aside Catholic theology, I am curious, do you have problems with Coptic theology?

    Yes/No (and please do not say you don’t know anything about them, do a search)

    How about Eastern Christian Orthodox theology?

    Any other of the mainstream Christian theology you object to besides the Protestant reformation?

    Or is it that you only accept the Protestant Reformation as your base to interpret theology?

    Who exactly in all denominations you have a problem with?(please I know that you follow Scripture alone, so don’t repeat that line) I would like to see your answers to my questions.

    Also, Please show references from the True Church that was not Catholic or Orthodox prior to Luther? Name them?

    Also, you don’t have a problem gleaning theology from Luther who wrote: “The Jews and Their Lies”?

    Yes/No?

    Luther said “If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly … as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

    Is Luther correct or incorrect on this theological concept and why?

    *This is a Yes or No answer with explanation.

    Can you specifically state if you agree with what is said above and why do you agree or disagree with it?

    Also, you have no problems gleaning from Luther’s theological concepts regardless that Luther blasphemed Christ:

    “Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.”

    Is it true that “Christ committed adultery”? Yes/No?

    I want your view on each of these statements Luther said. What do you feel Luther was having said what he said:

    A) A Christian?
    B) A heretic?
    C) Just a sinner who was “sinning boldly”?

    Can one who is saved sin a million times over? Yes/No?

    Now, please give me a cohesive answer. Much appreciated.

    Walid Shoebat.

  • shoebat

    Is that the only place they met? Was the “early church” only during the disciples? What about the first 3-4 centuries, they met in Catacombs.

    Can you tell us, why the image of Jonah and the fish was a Christian image that with several crosses cut into the walls in first century catacombs. Can you tell us why they had similar icons as we see on Orthodox and Catholic churches?

    There is an abundance of evidence that the early Christians during Acts did make use of icons along with statues and decorated liturgical elements, such as chalices with the image of Christ engraved upon them. A simple crawl through the Roman catacombs or the remains of Dura Europos (Syria) would provide a pointed demonstration.

    Should we condemn these things? Please help.

    • It would behoove the hecklers on this page to actualy go see Israel and Christian Palestine to see what ‘house churches’ really look like. Instead of the rubbish tour packages, go to where Christ and the Holy Spirit never left – inside those magnificent Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches which never once buckled, even under the weight of Islamic Arab and Ottoman Turk monsters.

      • Woody

        Great point Rudy, but only someone who wants to know the truth would do this; prejudice is much easier to hold onto.

    • Woody

      Yes, and Jesus also talked to dead people which the Catholic’s imitate; shall we condemn Jesus (foolish one), and did not God Himself order which many call “idols” – two angels on the Ark of the Covenant, and a Serpent which He ordered the Jews who were ill to look upon it and they were healed. I don’t think our God is an iconoclast.

  • shoebat

    I am concerned with this biased comment and your scripturally baseless rant. My messiah taught that there is neither Jew nor Greek. If you stand in opposition to the Father, you will find yourself with the dogs outside the city gates. Repent, for the reign of Jesus is near!

  • John James

    Has it been the goal of Satan to get men to keep Yhwh’s commandments or to disobey them?

    Yahweh was mad at Israel for rejecting Yhwh’s laws… SoOo his solution was to send His only son so you could reject His laws…O_o sounds made up. Peter was correct. Paul is hard to understand. And even in his time people were turning into a lawless fiasco. Psalm 119 is not only the longest chapter in the Bible it is also the longest lie?? It is either a true chapter literally or it is a false chapter literally. 33000 Christian denominations, 55 million abortions, adultery, pornography, divorce, homosexuality, Gay marriage, wicked leaders,…………… HEY CHURCH!!! YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG..Christian nation? SMH!!

  • Stephen Dalton

    JJ, the Old Covenant is no longer needed. The schoolmaster led us to Christ. We have graduated from school and we know longer need him. The New Covenant is our diploma. Your whole reply shows you don’t understand this simple fact. Read II Cor 3:4-18 and let Jesus free you from the administration of death.

    • John James

      2 Cor 3:6 The “letter” and Spirit” are not opposites. In verse 1 Paul begins by explaining how a “letter” in itself is not sufficient for his purposes, and how those in Corinth are not epistles written with ink, but in the Spirit of Elohim. The letter points out flaws. When we study the letter, sins of the weak flesh are exposed; our “natural” man is condemned to death to create a new birth according to YHWH’s Spirit. Christian theology , however, teaches the “letter” refers to Torah, and that Torah is contrary to the spiritual man, which is a rather evil theology considering that mainstream Christians are already keeping over 60 percent of Torah. Torah contains righteous directives of how to live and love ,as well as the Covenant of promise that necessitates Mashiyach. In this discourse Paul is juxtaposing condemnation as a function of the letter; he is most certainly not discrediting the Torah of YHWH as it pertains to the Spiritual Man (Romans 7:14;8:4). Torah is the Word of YHWH: “For it is not a vain thing for you; BECAUSE IT IS YOUR LIFE:AND THROUGH THIS >>>WORD<<< YOU SHALL PROLONG YOUR DAYS IN THE LAND" (Deuteronomy 32:47.

      • Stephen Dalton

        I never said the letter and the spirit of the law were opposed to one another. However, the letter of the law can not bring us life. That’s what Paul was trying to tell us in II Cor. 3:6-17. He makes it very clear that the Old Covenant was gone, and the Ten Commandment were a part of that covenant. Paul also says those who cling to the Old are blinded. Start reading the New Testament without the Hebrew Roots biases. Matthew 5-7 is a good place to start.

    • John James

      Has it been the goal of Satan to get men to keep Yhwh’s commandments or to disobey them?

      Yahweh was mad at Israel for rejecting Yhwh’s laws… SoOo his solution was to send His only son so you could reject His laws…O_o sounds made up. Peter was correct. Paul is hard to understand. And even in his time people were turning into a lawless fiasco. Psalm 119 is not only the longest chapter in the Bible it is also the longest lie?? It is either a true chapter literally or it is a false chapter literally. 33000 Christian denominations, 55 million abortions, adultery, pornography, divorce, homosexuality, Gay marriage, wicked leaders,…………… HEY CHURCH!!! YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG..Christian nation? SMH!!

    • Woody

      Very good; she certainly missed the New Covenant.

  • Ryan

    Nope, don’t think so. Stephen was wrongfully killed because the people made up a lie he was preaching contrary to Torah. Acts 6:8-15

  • Ryan

    I agree. It is everywhere and in every denomination.

  • fab

    Has anyone ever asked the question: how com christianity began as a priesthood and Juda’ism’as lawyers?
    Researching a little 2d temple era,w find a deep division and jealousy between the priesthood and the doctors of the law vying for power over Judea.
    Why is it called Juda’ism? Isn’t the Bible about Israel? When did the two terms become synonymous? Where is judaism in the Bible?
    The 2d temple gives us a setting: the hellenization of Judea and the reactionary doctrines that took place. In these we find the major division and patterns that today’s judeo christianity displays.
    The patriotic zeal of the 24 sects was expressed very differently according to each sects doctrine. This created a mindset that each sect’s point of view was the right way of treatng the gentiles: thus was going from total acceptance to total rejection, with any flavor in regard to presence, participation in services and common life, conversion, worship etc.
    This in turn gave each sect the feeling that they were representing the right way the Torah, therefore they considered themselves the true Israel, while in their eyes the other sects were mock up Israelites.
    In that line of thought, their consideration of the northern kingdom, cast out in 722bc, was dead and Judea wee the remnant of Israel and therefore constituted the whole Israel.
    Inn light of their effort of fighting off the gentile influence onto the judean lifestyles thereby boosting patriotism, anything gentile became a target for deprecation including the northern kingdom whom was considered dead to the Torah therefore plainly like any other gentile nation.
    This is extremely important to understand the subsequent schism between the group identifying itself as Jews and the other, also issued out of Judea yet called the catholics.
    One of the job of Jesus when he came 2k years ago was to set his house back in order.this meant to specifically strengthen Judea and save Jacob, the northern kingdom, because to bring in the gentile required the whole house of David to be united again. The new covenant is between both houses, Jeremiah 31:31 cannot be clearer, Hosea, Ezequiel 37, the dead bones of the Houser of Israel, in context. The spirit to teach the law in ez 36:20-27 the house of Israel. But Judea always had the law in their heart.
    This, the pharisees understood. But their thirst for control caused further an anti gentile climate, though they were the ones who had invited the Romans in to settle the dispute they had with the sadducees, the ruling class in charge of the priesthood, sadducees who had their own doctrines about this whole matter.furthermore there were the Essenes, the descendants of Aaron who walked away from the temple and established a wilderness type of priesthood hoping to one day recover the temple and revive the priesthood.
    Came Jesus.
    The doctrine of saving the prodigal son that was lost and which is about to return, the northern kingdom, well described in Luke and which is the focus of the book was very much the fear of the pharisees who also were professing an anti gentile attitude. But Jesus reminded then that Israel is a priesthood into the nations and the job of any Israelite was to preach the Torah, the gospel to all nationsthat all nations may come to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacle, which meaning was to abide by the Torah and bee an intricate part and one with Israel, according to the oath that God made to Abraham, all nations shall be blessed, as rambam the commentator understood as: being a part of Israel.
    This priesthood message was understood very well by the Essenes who walked right in into the Jesus movement, bringing in the priesthood leadership that pastored christianity for so long.
    But the popular pharisees whose leaven was that anti gentile doctrine hijacked judeans through legal threat and manipulations as they were the lawyers of the people who had no choice but to heed their advice of be treated as gentiles in front of the Sanhedrin. They in turn became the rabbinical order of spiritual leaders who is a lawyer based system, therefore a horizontal system, very opposite to the priestly mentality of non ownership,humbleness and vertical service, which is found in the manner of living of the first believers in Jesus.
    The dispute was thus set: law vs priesthood, judean patriotism vs reaching out to pull back the northern kingdom as the net that was cast over the seas and fishing in the gentiles from all corners of the universe: Juda supremacists vs universalists, Jews against katholikos (universals in Greek).

    Therefore, we conclude that the Jewish system (part and half of my ancestry) in imbued with resentment against the priesthood since the 2d temple and that their rejection of Jesus had to do with the universal message along with the understanding that Judea has to submit to Ephraim upon his return (northern kingdom) Ramban, the Rebbe, many other agreed on that. And that fear blocked any sense of acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah.eventually doctrines of rejection of each other on both sides of judeo christianity evolved to the present doctrines that keep every denomination separated from each other.
    Yet the Torah is clear: there must be lawyers, there must be a priesthood and the nations must all be a part of Israel.
    The Hebrew root movement is indeed confused because out is pulling doctrines out without knowing their origins, thus the same division that they are trying to bridge actually confuse even more the brethren. But God is in charge.

    It is imperative to consider that the priesthood in the body of the Messiah are the catholic priests and their offshoot. This priesthood was passed on from priest to priest and can be traced back to Aaron, by adoption, obviously not blood as it is a calling. This is not judging the doctrines but the lineage.
    Thus, whether coptic, orthodox or roman, Anglican-, Lutheran, etc, the priesthood is inherited.
    Much like the rabbinical juda’ism’ also accredit rabbis and follower through adoption an conversion.
    Both sides are brothers.period. There should not be any hatred rather intense cooperation that the body of the Messiah may function as one.

    As acts 1 and the subsequent church, the commandments nor the law were never rejected except through marcionist influence, but the pharisaic interpretation was in light of their doctrines on the gentiles and Judah supremacy.

    This is why Jerome,i think, noted you cannot be a Jew and a catholic,i.e. A Judah supremacist and a universalist. He is right. And this is the problem.
    Or was.
    Today this Judah supremacy doctrine is found in language like: the Jews were in Egypt, Abraham was a Jew, the Torah was given to the Jews, etc.
    And the churches saying: no, we are the true spiritual Israel.
    Really?

    Let Abraham be a Hebrew, let the Israelites be in Egypt, let the Torah be given to the world, let Israel be reunited, let all the churches return to the Bible laws and festivals.

    Act 15 only speaks about not pushing nor accusing the gentiles for breaking the law, but in verse 21 it is clear that the expectation was that they should learn and practice it just as any other judean of the time: Moses is taught on the sabbath in the synagogue.

    As long as they did not do any idol worshiping,etc. The spirit had called them. In exe 36 the spirit is given to teach the law and put it in their heart per the new covenant clauses.
    This the first Christians were clear about it. Until Marcion,etc.
    Contrary to the pharisaic rulings about conversion.
    Today,Chabad had reversed a lot of these ruling and allows non Jews to assist and learn and partake. Much as many churches are embracing the feasts of the Lord.
    Jesus is indeed bringing back his people together.

  • John James

    2 Corinthians 3:15 And to this day, when Moses is read, a veil is thrown upon their hearts But when any of them is turned to Master YHWH, the veil is taken from him.

    (There reading of Torah does not blind, nor does the reading of the “renewed Covenant” bring Grace: but in each, one must “turn to Master YHWH with their hearts: to remove the veil. MarYah/YHWH is used here, rather than Y’shua. Rather than people turning to Y’shua as the deciding factor, the point is that both Jews and Gentiles must be truthful, and not just use prayers or Scripture readings as some sort of magical incantation, but to turn their hearts to YHWH. In many places Y’shua teaches that he came to bring Glory to the Father, and to turn hearts unto YHWH.)

  • Ryan

    Hate is hate. No matter whether in the 3rd century, or the 21 century. Those words are right along the lines of Hitler and Nazism. Yes, that is part of the legacy of some of the early church fathers and what bred replacement theology.

    • Rapheal Sebastian

      Have you read The Jews And Their Lies by Martin Luther? Which was later adopted by Hitler himself as his promulgated his final solution.

  • shoebat

    Armstrong thinks that “It is necessary to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism — neither of which are permitted by the Catholic Church today, but still the former is distinct and quite different from the latter. Of your suggested examples of patristic anti-Semitism, the only one that qualifies as unquestionable anti-Semitism is the quote from St. John Chrysostom’ infamous homilies against the Jews.

    But the other passages do not in any way qualify as anti-Semitism. At worst they are examples of the common anti-Judaism found in the early Fathers, and the passage from St. Ignatius isn’t even anti-Judaism, but would be “anti-Judaising.” St. Ignatius was condemning the heresy that Christians had an obligation to observe the Law of Moses, and the New Testament itself condemns the same heresy. Of course many absurdly and stupidly claim the New Testament is anti-Semitic too.

    Again, the passages from St. Justin and Origen are examples of anti-Judaism, not anti-Semitism. The passage from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted.”

    But is this all Ryan can find?

    Where do I start with Luther? Or should I start with Luther?

    • CounterHeresyFighter

      It was very enlightening, Mr. Shoebat. ^_^

  • shoebat

    Armstrong thinks that “It is necessary to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism — neither of which are permitted by the Catholic Church today, but still the former is distinct and quite different from the latter. Of your suggested examples of patristic anti-Semitism, the only one that qualifies as unquestionable anti-Semitism is the quote from St. John Chrysostom’ infamous homilies against the Jews.

    But the other passages do not in any way qualify as anti-Semitism. At worst they are examples of the common anti-Judaism found in the early Fathers, and the passage from St. Ignatius isn’t even anti-Judaism, but would be “anti-Judaising.” St. Ignatius was condemning the heresy that Christians had an obligation to observe the Law of Moses, and the New Testament itself condemns the same heresy. Of course many absurdly and stupidly claim the New Testament is anti-Semitic too.

    Again, the passages from St. Justin and Origen are examples of anti-Judaism, not anti-Semitism. The passage from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted.”

    But is this all Ryan can find?

    Where do I start with Luther? Or should I start with Luther? Even putting aside Luther, for two decades I had to endure CURRENT accusations of being Jesuit spy and that Catholic belong to a Harlot Church. Ryan needs to just google and see the thousands of articles written with slander. Is that not prejudice?

    • CounterHeresyFighter

      Wasn’t St. John Chrysostom actually condemning the Judaizers rather than the normal Jews who were minding their business?

      And history undeniably proves that Luther was truly anti-Jewish, whose writings even INSPIRED the NAZIS themselves 400 or something years later. Even many Protestants, including the heretic John Hagee, know this as a fact.

  • shoebat

    Armstrong thinks that “It is necessary to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism — neither of which are permitted by the Catholic Church today, but still the former is distinct and quite different from the latter. Of your suggested examples of patristic anti-Semitism, the only one that qualifies as unquestionable anti-Semitism is the quote from St. John Chrysostom’ infamous homilies against the Jews.

    But the other passages do not in any way qualify as anti-Semitism. At worst they are examples of the common anti-Judaism found in the early Fathers, and the passage from St. Ignatius isn’t even anti-Judaism, but would be “anti-Judaising.” St. Ignatius was condemning the heresy that Christians had an obligation to observe the Law of Moses, and the New Testament itself condemns the same heresy. Of course many absurdly and stupidly claim the New Testament is anti-Semitic too.

    Again, the passages from St. Justin and Origen are examples of anti-Judaism, not anti-Semitism. The passage from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted.”

    But is this all Ryan can find?

    Where do I start with Luther? Or should I start with Luther? Even putting aside Luther, for two decades I had to endure CURRENT accusations of being Jesuit spy and that Catholic belong to a Harlot Church. Ryan needs to just google and see the thousands of articles written with slander. Is that not prejudice? Lets see you now say it “hate is hate” right? Go ahead, make my day.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    How do you know how they believed and practiced as opposed to all the manmade Bible-alone churches that sprouted after Luther came along with his novel interpretations?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    How do you interpret “This IS my Body”?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    ‘Why do you think there are so many abusers in the Catholic clergy’. See what box you’ve put yourself into? You are stating that celibacy is the cause of abuse. You never mention the millions of celibate clergy that have never touched man or woman. How do you defend protestant married clergy abuses? Shall I employ your formula and determine that being married causes abuse?

    • Woody

      Julie, so are too logical. It’s like cow-farting causes global warming only this from someone’s mouth.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Can’t help it, I was born that way,

  • shoebat

    Ryan,

    Two observations:

    1-You ignored the question marks. I asked you questions. You never answered. This is the typical sophist method you follow.

    2-You changed the subject to theology when it was racism.

    99% of you do this which says only one thing; there is no desire to seek truth, the issues is banging comments and spinning.

    Go back and fulfill what a dialogue requires. Answer the questions first. I answered your question now why can’t you answer mine? This also needs to be answered if you wish a dialogue.

  • Woody

    Found you; yes, even the New Testament was not finished until April 8th, 1592

    • Julie

      The Council of Trent again reviewed the Catholic Bible….and again with the pope and in communion with all the bishops of the world, the whole process taking up to 18 years with a 10 year gap, verified in the Holy Spirit that those books were indeed inspired for public revelation.

      The Council of Trent was the reform in response to that in the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation.

      Yet you want to follow a single individual based on his limited perceptions….how many years the individual makes a theological stand to start another church, claiming his version is correct over the consecrated, the ordained, the bishops, the studied theologians, over 1500 years of consistency of faith….

      How many split up Christian sects are in the USA alone?

      Did you know it is the English speaking Christians who are most anti-Catholic? who write up the most deceptive and ill founded claims against my faith??

      • All of this was political. The English slandered Spain and most bad news from them came from English lies, the worst kind, as black propaganda. For centuries, English were known as utter liars, and such habits were spread unwittingly by American dullards too lazy to actually do the research for themselves. This is why you end up with cesspools of ignorance in real life and moreso online. It is truly shameful.

        • Julie

          As I become more educated, being a loyal American and growing up with some anti-Catholic prejudice as a child here in the NW, reading all the terrible remarks that have come out of our country, and they are starting to become abusive to me….it is looking like our fellow English speaking peoples are the ones who are the worst…all in the name of their form of Christianity.

          When I see the damage done to people who do want to believe in God, they have such fear put into them about Catholics, they cannot recognize anything historical, they cannot bother to read as it is ‘over their head’, as one of my in-laws stated.

          When I see how pervasive and wrong it is…it is akin to the KGB and their disinformation about America throughout the entire world.

          I almost am beginning to wonder if this is some sort of pay back.

          Hope not.

          Thanks, Rudy.

          Catholic Answers is now coming out with documented facts about the Crusades and the Inquisition. I also read out those under investigation for heresy….after being plunderered by Islam for 700 years and enforced dhimmitude….that these individuals were not placed in criminals’ prisons but in separate quarters.

          • The pleasure is mine. Welcome home to Apostolic Christianity. Orthodox and Catholic laity are understanding each other more and more. It’s a shame that the others wish to live in a lie.

          • Julie

            So true.

            Many Latin churches throughout USA are drawing to the use of icons rather than statues…although my former parish has a very soft, simple statue of Mary, Queen of Heaven.

            Latin architecture is more hierarchical, Eastern more communal. So many want a sacred liturgy that can draw indigenous peoples of Africa and elsewhere who can relate to more to such a liturgy.

            I attend a Maronite church, which of course, is united to Rome, and the priest speaks Aramaic, and he calls down God’s protection all during the liturgy. Now I can understand why.

            I have now heard from various sources that it was alot of mistranslation that led to the Great Schism. The higher up’s know this, but it is the broad, ethnic, nationalistic base that is refusing re-unification.

            I also wonder how much Russian conversion affected the sacred union between East and West.

            Another interesting contribution is now from our Big Brothers, the Hebrew Catholic Association, that has been based in St. Louis, MO, and has a small number of Jewish Catholic priests!

            God Bless You, Rudy

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Two Julies

      • Woody

        Huh? 2 Julies? You never gave me a rundown on your trip to Okie? Anything exciting happen?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          The church was overflowing, hundreds stood outside (me) on the parking lot, when the Blessed Sacrament was brought outside, all fell to their knees, was such an awesome display of His sovereignty and power like I had never witnessed. During the procession, got to hear the Rosary in Spanish and Vietnamese and English simultaneously. Went to dinner at Mexican restaurant that had a replica of Our Lady of Guadalupe!

  • Woody

    Boy, this guy is on hemp or something or taking Obama pills- like himself, none of his statements true-but not a rare find today–forget education–just make it up!

  • Woody

    Good point. I just read a great topic by some guy called Shoebat and it is well done because it it the truth.

    The Catholic Church is the only church that has done anything about the abuse scandal which affects about 2.7% of priests; thus while zero is acceptable one knows that “sin” causes it; the Protestants do not even track it in their churches but the data is gathered by their insurance companies.

    There
    Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

    Of course because of Catholic prejudice only the Catholic Church is attacked by other churches and the press.

  • Woody

    Catacombs mostly; the Church was under severe persecution until Constantine.

  • Woody

    The term “Catholic” goes back to the second century; the Universal Church of Jesus goes all he way back to Him, then known as “the People of the Way” before its name was changed by the saint on his way to be eaten by lions.

  • Woody

    Yes, Ignatius renamed our Church from “the people of the way” to the Universal (Catholic) Church of Jesus Christ. Thank you, Iggy

  • Woody

    Yes, Hahn reads Scripture in Aramaic, Greek, English, etc. so unusual for a person today; I listen to him. Or Greek speaking persons on here have often commented how the Bible is misinterpreted in translations from the original Greek to English (our Orthodox friends, etc)

  • Woody

    Yes, I think of the first Protestants in John VI

  • Julie LaBrecque

    I agree with whatl you’ve said, I think you may have misconstrued my response.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    I fully believe all the precepts set out by the Church.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You need to read Malachi 1:11

  • shoebat

    Ryan,

    You once wrote “Let me remind you about who the New Covenant is with and who are the grafted in ones and heirs to the promises of the commonwealth of Israel.”

    I agree with your statement wholeheartedly.

    So, now that we are “grafted in” would you consider Scripturally that you can move to and live in Israel?

    If not, why not?

    If yes, why yes?

    The answer to these two questions should answer your other issues.

  • Stephen Dalton

    Kathy, only the German and English call the yearly celebration of the risen Lord ‘Easter’ The rest of the Christian world calls it Peash, that is Passover. Those folks hung on to a lot of old pagan names for things. That’s why Christmas is called Yule, and why most of the days of the week in our calendar are named after the old German/Norse gods. Wednesday (Wotan’s Day), Thursday (Thor’s Day) etc.

  • royal

    Dear Julie: I miss understood, I am not familiar, with this hebrew roots movement. I through that they were talking about the Messianic, teaching, which ,Walid was very much a large part…just a word mixup

    • Julie

      I don’t know if it is a movement so much within Catholicism. Our roots are Jewish, our worship fulfills Judaism….that which is given to us directly by God in how He dictates worship rather than we deciding what is pleasing to Him.

      Only the Son of God is the acceptable form of worship to the Heavenly Father.

      Check out http://www.hebrewcatholic.com.
      Also, http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com

      And two books written by a former Calvinist minister, Dr Scott Hahn, ‘The Lamb’s Supper’, and ‘Consume the Word’.

      The problem with the Messianic movements is that they have the same issues of Protestantism, no central authority as you have in the universal Christian Church.

      • royal

        Thank you .I will , check it out God bless…

        • Julie

          By the way, St. Ignatius of Antioch, who had military escort to his execution in Rome, called Christ’s Church, the “he katholike ekklesia” — ‘Universal Church’ the Catholic Church — in 107 AD — in contrast to new protestant spin that pagan Constantine started the Catholic Church in the 300’s.

    • shoebat

      Royal,

      A rule of thumb when searching for truth is to look at schisms and divisions. Christ clearly said He wants the Church to be ONE. We ought to simply like little children obey Him. So when we see so many schisms and divisions, its not from God its from Satan. The Hebrew Roots and so many other movements before it had schisms, divisions and hostilities within hostilities. Christ said “you shall know them by their fruits”. These have one thing in common, Scripture isolation. They can either isolate the Torah, isolate verses that speak of Christ without the Trinity (in order to deny the Trinity), isolate verses that have plural marriages to promote polygamy, isolate faith from works, isolate isolate isolate is the signature of the wolf, for he isolates the sheep …

      What I love about truth is that finding it is not as complex as people make it to be.

      As Julie said, one cannot really find more Jewish roots than the ancient churches Copts, Orthodox, Catholic … they have spices, Menorahs, Pasch (Passover) …

      What the Hebrew Roots want to do is deny the Trinity. They want to manufacture an apostolic succession and impose themselves as the original church. The biggest problem with cults is this; they have no history so they steal and rob someone else’s history. The devil robs and steals. This is what Christ warned us about.

      • royal

        Thank you for being careing. You and Julie both …I’ll think on all of this God bless

  • Julie

    In China, the Christians there are in great persecution. The situation there in some ways resembles the governments of ancient Rome empire.

    People had to worship underground.

    If you study the catecombs in Rome, these were the burial sites of the Romans and people were afraid to go down there.

    But it is where many Romans worshipped Christ….bringing His light into the world at the very center of the Roman Empire…and among its dead!!

    In ancient times under persecution, people worshipped in their homes and that is the case in China.

    Also there is the Roman Catholic Church in China that has a number of its bishops imprisoned for many years. Then we have the Nationalist Catholic Church which is not recognized by Rome and is beholden to the Communist government.

    It has problems like the nationalistic Russian Orthodox who were complicit in working against mainline Russian Orthodox and Catholics, many of whom died. This faction also worked to smear Pope Pius XII by infiltrating the Vatican with two of its priests from Romania to ‘doctor’ the documents of Pius and his work in helping the Jews and Slavic people who were greatly persecuted by the Naziis.

    But I would also add in these conditions, the liturgy was pretty much uniform throughout the ancient Christian world….a miracle of unity of the Holy Spirit at work.

  • Stephen Dalton

    “as for me no one has ever put me under the yoke of bondage.” Nope, you did it to yourself.

  • shoebat

    We are always the most misunderstood group. But so was Jesus.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Catholic Church dates to AD 33.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Do you believe that when Jesus returns that we will all be changed into immortal bodies?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    For a Christian to partake of the Jewish feasts is to deny that Christ is the fulfillment of these feasts through HIs institution of the Messianic Banquet of His body and blood, Proverbs 9:1-11, Isaiah 25:6, Matt 26:29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:15-20

  • shoebat

    Really? I didn’t know that. None of us here know that. WOW.

    • I just spit up my coke from laughing. Thanks, Walid. 😀

  • shoebat

    Again, it proves useless to dialogue with folks who want to throw rocks and run.

  • How the Opstles Died:

    =================

    There is a
    tradition that the
    Apostles divided the entire world into sections and then cast lots to see
    who would go to which part of it, that the Gospel might be preached to the whole world.

    Of course, we know where Paul
    went
    (as is recorded up to the end of the book of The Acts of the Apostles). Some think that he later
    went to Spain on a fourth missionary journey, as he had hoped to do.
    Here are some of
    the traditions telling where the other Apostles traveled as
    missionaries, and how their lives are said to have ended:

    ANDREW

    Traveling to what is now modern-day Russia, to
    the “land of the man-eaters,” Andrew preached Jesus to its
    inhabitants. Christians there claim
    that he was the first to bring them the gospel. It is also said
    that he preached in the Roman province of Asia (modern-day
    Turkey). Tradition also has him preaching in Greece, and says that he
    was crucified there.

    BARTHOLOMEW

    Tradition says that
    he went on missionary journeys to Southern Arabia and Ethiopia.
    That with Thomas he traveled to India, and also that he preached in
    Armenia. Accounts of his death vary, but all agree that he was
    martyred for the faith.

    JAMES, THE SON OF ALPHEUS

    James, the Son of Alpheus, is said to have
    proclaimed Jesus in Syria. Josephus (a Jewish historian writing for Romans; see also our page: Josephus
    On Jesus) reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

    JOHN

    The only Apostle
    for certain never said to have been martyred, is the Apostle
    John. John became
    Bishop of Ephesus (a Greek City located in what is now modern-day
    Turkey). He was exiled to the Island of Patmos. There John was inspired by God to write the Book
    of Revelation. Tradition holds that this happened in a
    particular cave which you can still go and visit. Greek Orthodox Monks long
    ago built a Church and monastery over it.

    MATTHEW

    Matthew (Levi) was
    the tax collector who followed Jesus and later wrote the Gospel of
    Matthew. He preached in Persia and Ethiopia. There is
    disagreement as to whether or not he was martyred. According to some of the oldest
    sources, he was not martyred. Other sources hold that Ethiopia was
    the place where he died; and that he was stabbed to death there.

    MATTHIAS

    The other
    Apostles by casting of lot chose Matthias to take the place of Judas in
    an attempt to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy “…let another
    take his office” -Psalm 109:8, quoted in Acts 1:20 (however,
    some feel that the Lord Himself fulfilled this prophecy by replacing Judas with the
    Apostle Paul). Matthias is never mentioned again in
    Scripture. Tradition says that Matthias
    traveled to Syria with Andrew and was burned to death.

    PETER

    It is said that Peter asked to be crucified upside
    down in Rome,
    saying that he was not worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.
    He was executed ca. 66 A.D. by the Roman Emperor Nero.

    PHILIP

    To the northern African city of Carthage,
    Philip is said to have brought the Gospel. It is also said that he
    led the wife of a
    Roman proconsul to the Lord, and that the proconsul was not pleased
    with this. It is said that he had Philip arrested, and executed with great cruelty.

    SIMON THE ZEALOT

    Simon, it is held,
    traveled to Persia. Tradition says that he refused to sacrifice to the
    Persian’s sun god, and was killed because of it.

    THOMAS

    It is held that
    Thomas preached east of
    Syria. Tradition says that he proclaimed Christ in India, and founded the church of Mar Thoma.
    This church is still in existence today, and claims Thomas as its
    founder. In India they say that he then traveled to China and also
    preached the Gospel there, later returning again to India.
    Thomas is said to have died in India, killed by four soldiers armed with
    spears.

    PAUL

    The Roman Emperor Nero is
    said to have had Paul beheaded in Rome around 66 A.D.

  • The Apostle James went to Seria and they killed him over there,
    people didn’t want to hear the good news and where peagans during that time.

  • By the way allot of Jesus his followers went to the east Like Seria and Arabia
    they all get killed there because people didn’t want the good News.
    Tradition says that Matthias
    traveled to Syria with Andrew and was burned to death.
    =======
    Matthew also get beat to dead in Seria.
    ========
    BARTHOLOMEW thye killed hum in Arabia.
    ====
    Andrew in Turkey by man eaters.

  • Julie

    I think Protestants also look to individual men too much. They project some kind of false deity on our hierarchy, when our focus is on Christ Himself. Before God we are all equal.

    The point is the Catholic Church has the full deposit or understanding of Christ, but its members are all on the same faith journey…it is Word and Sacrament and Tradition going back to the beginning in how our faith was to be lived out.

    Catholics are no better than any other. It is Christ’s instituted Church that we draw the life of Christ.

  • These people know better, but choose to lie. Don’t mind them, and remember… Luke 23:34: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do”.

  • Julie

    Yes, there are no martyrs in Protestantism — they point to Jan Huns or Mormonism….which is gleaning all they can from Catholic manner of teachings, expressing, starting to use our vocabulary, draw on CCC460 to state Catholicism is proving in its own catechism we can become gods without reading it in context, including foot notes that pertain to the Eucharist.

    Becoming a child of God is entering into communion with the Holy Trinity and being an instrument of Christ Himself humbling serving others, and considering yourself less.

    It was St. Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD who called the Church Catholic, –the original name being Universal Church — No Latin or Eastern but that reflecting the truth that Christ died for all mankind and is calling us to new life in His Church.

    I am a cradle Catholic, endured some anti Catholic prejudice as a child, and would hear remarks every so often throughout my young adult life. So it is really something to see at my age, a grandmother, to realize how much our fellow English speaking peoples were most guilty in creating falsehoods about our faith.

    I will also note that Germany and Great Britain were already falling into nationalism, and Martin Luther himself wrote an essay that partly addressed ‘the motherland’.

    BTW, http://www.pavetheway.org verifies with documents that there was no one other than Pope Pius XII who did more for the Jews than any other, besides showing the majority of German Catholics opposed Hitler and his party by not voting for them, along with German Catholic bishops and that thousands of German priests were shot to death by the Nazis for opposing this regime.

  • Amen to that!

  • Hello, kkdgrace;

    I would advise visiting all of them, if only to see both the stability of the liturgy, and the ethnic flavoring of each church. I love all of them. I was Chrismated into the Slavic realm, but became Byzantine shortly after. I visit Antiochian churches from time to time as I enjoy the Arabic language quite a bit, though I never learned it properly. If you were born Roman Catholic, the process of Chrismation is an easy one. For any other sect, it would take a proper baptism. If you need any further help, by all means, contact me here and we’ll talk about it.

    God bless, indeed!

  • shoebat

    John,

    I apologize if I got to review your video late. I fully agree with it. The first converts were Jews and they fully adhered as Jews.

    Then we have also the gentiles.

    But there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are one in Christ.

    The issue is: should we all now speak Hebrew? Dress in Tallits?

    Heavens no. Its not necessary.

    But people take advantage of the truth you shared. They take it as if we must all copycat this in every way.

    They take it as if this was corrupted by Church Fathers.

    This is the question at hand.

  • And pray for me, a fellow sinner. I shall start thinking about blogs you might enjoy. This place is a blast, however, for learning about the Church Fathers. Say what you will about some of the commentators, but this place is never boring. The Shoebats are good men, and they will point you to much spiritual milk. I’ll do what I can to add to the mix.

  • Julie

    People have to realize that being in Church is being in God, in Christ through the Holy Spirit…this communion that transcends everything of this world.

    I was thinking last night of a Protestant woman I cared for who had recovered from an operation, her second bout with cancer. She had the most wonderful and beautiful personality, most Christ centered..and full of His life. She was a great blessing to me.

    I experienced the Lord with her…although she was not Catholic. She appeared to have no malice against anyone, so cheerful…We simply did not worship together.

    The earliest Christians were Jewish, and suffered like the others in the Diaspora. These Jews were considered Nazarenes by the Orthodox Jews, the ones who cast the Nazarenes out of their synagogues. The Romans called the Christian Jews, the Galileans…where Christ first came from His 40 days in the desert…to come to the area of Israel where people were coming back from exile or were very poor and/or were in need of physical healings…

    The Christian Jews who went to Rome were part of house ecclesial communities led by presbyters. When SS Peter and Paul came, they then in turn founded the Church as the Church of Rome…but people continued to remain in their individual church settings…but they all considered themselves as part of the Church of Rome.

    As I stated before, Catholic is Greek for universal. The Church was called the Universal Christian Church by 107 AD and there were distinctions only of patriachs..but people still considered themselves as part of the universal Church…and their worship was standard throughout the ancient world…You can look up St. Justin the Martyr to see how he documented and explained what happens at Mass to the ancient Roman emperor around 154 AD.

    People by 100 AD had practically all the books of Scripture except Hebrews..which was finally approved by 200 AD, the liturgy …the banquet table as the Covenant of the Blood, the form of worship Christ defined for us, those authorized by the apostles to be bishops and presbyters, and the basic components of the Creed. People made vows at the end of Mass to not lie, kill or commit adultery. Many went to daily Mass.

    There were no divisions or schisms…but in these 300 years, also marked by sporadic persecutions, the development of Christology developed. What I mean by this is that our Early Church Fathers (ECF) likewise…practically all of them had some erroneous reflections…but together with the Holy Spirit, our catechism grew in fully defining Christ in the deposit of faith in Christ.

    It is the Church, not Scripture that completed the final revelation of Who Christ is…True God –and True Man…the Nicene Creed…Emperor Constantine was present at this Council…and signed the Edict of Milan to make Christianity legal and Sunday a day of rest.

    But the Church was one….as it developed and expanded, each region had its particular events, challenges…that affected theology and worship. But we were all one.

    Russia converted about 1000 AD. It is also the time of the Great Schism.

    Now I am hearing..it was a known fact afterwards that mistranslations caused the initial problems…but to this very day…it is the lower ranks who are stubbornly continuing this terrible schism.

    I see both good and negative aspects of both the Latin and Orthodox Churches…I pray for our common unity to be restored…soon…the Patriarch of Constantinople is hoping to address this with the Eastern Church patriarchs either in 2015 or 2016.

    And we are now also seeing the emerging of the Hebrew Catholics who share the same faith…and do not see the Church as replacing the Nation of Israel. They likewise state that the Messianic movement has the same problems as Protestantism in that there is no central authority and they have various partitions…and of course do not accept the Church…many of them having wounded experiences from the Church in the past, true counter witness of Christ by universal Christians on both sides of the schism.

    They need our prayers for their healing so that they can come to the Banquet of the Lord.

  • sean Richard

    for a new member to this movement you lost me at trinity. one of the first things learned as a child in the Jewish faith is the Lord our G_D is one Lord. a key reason many jew’s reject Christ is because the church invented the idea of a trinity back in 325 AD at the council of Nicaea. I know there is a lot of weird beliefes out there and I for one tread very lightly around any group that does not teach the Lord our G_D is one Lord and teach a 3 person G_D head instead. I fellowship with oneness believers/Jewish believers and among the oneness ranks it’s not that hard converting jews as there more likely to listen to Oneness teaching then the idea of a 3 person G_D head

  • By your analogy Judaism and Christianity does not matter since Joseph Smith is of recent origin. And while you would use the same argument that Christianity is before Mormonism, you do not mind to NOT use this argument because Catholicism is before YOU.

    • Ameri Sor

      Good point. For the first 300 years of the Church, the Gospel was spread by the Apostles, the first Bishops, by oral Sacred Tradition. Finally, as the Sacred Scriptures were Canonized in the 4th century, do we see the union of the two mechanisms of sotorology, Sacred Traditions (spoken Word of God), and Sacred Scripture (the written Word of God) both of equal and mutual authority. Welcome to the Catholic Faith, the One True Faith founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, built upon the rock of St Peter.

  • Michael Mosher

    Dear Walid,
    I owe you a tremendous apology. I once wrote a message on this site accusing you of being Roman Catholic, and a deceiver who needed to repent. The irony is that I, myself, have since converted to Catholicism. I feel horrible for accusing Catholics in the past of being less-than-Christian, and my words to you in that previous note have weighed on my conscience.
    Please forgive me, my brother in Christ, and pray for me.
    God bless you and your.
    Sincerely,
    -M.

    • Mosher,

      I have forgiven you already, the day you wrote that message. No apology needed, you have blessed me when you wrote that message last year, but you have greatly blessed me when you wrote this message today. I still think of the Catholic I slandered years and years ago whom I do not remember his name. I am interested on what happened to you and how you got to this stage brother Mosher. Welcome home. It must have been a journey and if you do not mind sharing how you found your way home.

  • Welcome home brother Mosher.

    So glad to see you have made it home brother Mosher. Let us know every now or then how your walk goes. Or even better yet, jump in the ship and we will journey to many waters and fish for more.

  • sean Richard

    I’m sorry but Christianity as a whole is wrong. Study your history. You saying Hebrew roots is not the original Christianity? we are not Christians at all. The Christian beliefs are based on the Vedas out of India where as the Hebrew roots use the complete bible as there foundation

    • “where as the Hebrew roots use the complete bible as there foundation”

      You must be using the Bible for zig-zags.

  • No Longer Divisions:
    We become “Children of God” through Faith in Christ (Yeshua Ha Mashiach)

    “But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:25-29)

    • “No Longer Divisions”

      Great. Why then are you divided from the two millennia church?

      • Hi Walid. The union is the spiritual Church comprised of born-again believers throughout the world. There is actually no “denominational” nor “sectarian” division when we are united in the Biblical faith of the New Testament teachings of Jesus. In other words, when Jesus returns, He will not ask which “church” we attended nor will He ask which “Christian denomination” did we adhere to; He will already know whether or not we had a sincere and personal relationship with Him through faith and acceptance of Him being our personal Lord and Saviour.

        • “Church comprised of born-again believers throughout the world”

          I do not find the “born again” denominations that have thousands of disagreements and splinters in my scriptures Mike. I only find Christ Who promised to build His Church.

          Now if you kindly show me a single Christian who agrees with your interpretations from 100 AD to 1400 AD I might entertain your comment. Other than that, lets not waste time over issues that has been discussed millions of times over. I am in a hunt. I am in a search for any Christian that agrees with you from 100 AD to 1400 AD.

          Are you the one to give me the answer or must I await for another?

          • Hi Walid. Answers from the Holy Bible:

            1.) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither
            shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

            2.) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:6-8)

            3.) But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:25-27)

            4.) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
            And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:7-8)

            5.) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:15-17)

            6.) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2: 26-28)

            7.) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. (Hebrews 4:14)

        • Kamau41

          Jesus says these words, which is so very clear that there is ONE Church that HE promised to build to St. Peter:
          “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this ROCK I will build My CHURCH; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”(Matt 16:18-19)

    • Kamau41

      If what you say here is true Mike, then explain to us why there are almost 60,000 different denominations and every week there are new splinters occurring?

      • Kamau41: Are there not divisions within the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) as well? Vatican I vs Vatican II, for example. I know of several parishioners who have expressed their disagreements with what Pope Francis is up to these days and where he is leading the RCC.
        The reason there are so many divisions and splinter groups from those divisions is because they are following the teachings of a fallible man and not following and trusting the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit – the Spirit of Truth.
        I’ll bet that even within your own parish congregation, you will find a few who long for the former teachings and question the changes that are being made since Pope Francis stepped in as more of a political Socialist rather than a theologian and shepherd of the flock.
        You will witness more changes coming from within the RCC, some that even you will disagree with. So, the point is, all religions have divisions but there will always be One Truth and that is trusting in the New Testament teachings of Jesus Christ, believe that through His crucifixion He atoned for your sins and mine, once and for all, that He Resurrected with victory over death and ascended unto the Father, and that He will return again as Messiah ben David and Righteous Judge and will establish the Millennial Kingdom of God in Jerusalem prior to the final Judgment Day.

  • I see. So Jesus then failed to “build His church” and “the gates of hell prevailed” until you showed up, right?

  • Christianity is Hinduism? Yep, aha, right, sure …

    Have a nice day.

  • Listen Sean. The link you sent is of some idiot who knows nothing. He elevates Hislop.

    Ralph Woodrow, who authored a book paralleling “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop is an excellent case-in-point. Both Hislop and Woodrow – amongst many others like Dave Hunt – wrote some of the most influential books that supported such a myth, which was etched into the minds of millions of Protestant and Evangelical Christians. While Hunt’s book “Woman Rides the Beast” is so easily refuted, Woodrow’s confession should shed light on how these over-hyped, half-baked books are flawed.

    Woodrow stated:

    “As a young evangelist, I began to preach on the mixture of paganism with Christianity, and eventually I wrote a book based on Hislop, titled Babylon Mystery Religion (Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Assn., 1966). In time, my book became quite popular, went through many printings, and was translated into Korean, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and several other languages. Hundreds quoted from it. Some regarded me as an authority on the subject of ‘pagan mixture’. Even the noted Roman Catholic writer Karl Keating said, ‘Its best-known proponent is Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion.’ … As time went on, however, I began to hear rumblings that Hislop was not a reliable historian… As a result, I realized I needed to go back through Hislop’s work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out.

    As I did this, it became clear: Hislop’s ‘history’ was often only an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths … The subtitle for Hislop’s book is ‘The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife’. Yet when I went to reference works such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, The Americana, The Jewish Encyclopedia, The Catholic Encyclopedia, The Worldbook Encyclopedia – carefully reading their articles on ‘Nimrod’ and ‘Semiramis’ — not one said anything about Nimrod and Semiramis being husband and wife. They did not even live in the same century. Nor is there any basis for Semiramis being the mother of Tammuz. I realized these ideas were all Hislop’s inventions … While seeking to condemn the paganism of Roman Catholicism, Hislop produced his own myths … Take enough names, enough stories, and enough centuries; translate from one language to another; and a careless writer of the future might pass on all kinds of misinformation … Building on similarities while ignoring differences is an unsound practice. Atheists have long used this method in an attempt to discredit Christianity altogether, citing examples of pagans who had similar beliefs about universal floods, slain and risen saviors, virgin mothers, heavenly ascensions, holy books, and so on.

    As Christians, we don’t reject prayer just because pagans pray to their gods. We don’t reject water baptism just because ancient tribes plunged into water as a religious ritual. We don’t reject the Bible just because pagans believe their writings are holy or sacred.

    …If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and Morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshiped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13: 21–22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

    I realized that citing a similarity does not provide proof. There must be a legitimate connection … Hislop says, for example, that the “round” wafer used in the Roman Catholic mass came from Egyptian paganism. For this he cites a statement in Wilkinson’s Ancient Egyptians (vol. 5, 353, 365) about the use of thin round cakes on their altars. When I checked Wilkinson’s work, however, he also said the Egyptians used oval and triangular cakes; folded cakes; cakes shaped like leaves, animals, and a crocodile’s head; and so on. Hislop failed to even mention this.

    While condemning round communion wafers as images of the sun-god Baal, Hislop fails to mention that the very manna given by the Lord was round. “Upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing….And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat” (Exod. 16:14–15, KJV, emphasis added). Round is not necessarily pagan.”

  • Instead of dealing with what I sent you you changed the subject. Typical.