There is a very common misunderstanding that has taken place over the title of “Mother of God”. Protestants and Judaizers (not Jews but Gentiles who insist that the Church conform to Judaism in order to be right before God) have often accused Apostolic Christians (Orthodox, Coptic, Roman Catholic and others) of being idolaters and worshippers of the Blessed Virgin Mary for giving such a title to her. However, for our understanding, we need to have an examination of the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, in order to see what is the reason for such a title. May God open the eyes of the reader. For Jews (not Judaizers), I sincerely hope that you will take the time to open the Tenach (Old Testament in Hebrew) and see indeed what is there and you will find the key to not only understanding the nature of the Messiah but also of understanding your future too. For Christians, it is important to understand this correctly lest you fall into serious heresy and thus go the path of perdition.

Byzantine Icon-Mother of God

Byzantine Icon-Mother of God


Before the Prophet Moses the Lawgiver came on the scene, we have our first parents, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. In this scene, we not only discover the first sin of disobedience due to the tempting of the Serpent, who is none other than Satan the Advesary (for that is what “Satan- שָּׂטָן” means in the Hebrew, since he is the adversary of both God and man) but we also discover a significant prophecy. In Genesis 3:15, God gives this prophecy regarding the opposition to the Serpent and his seed as well as the Woman and her Seed: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” In the Hebrew Masoretic text, it is clear that both the Woman and the Seed of the Woman are part of this battle in defeating the Serpent and his seed. The Vulgate at this point due to ambiguity in the gender of the Seed in the Hebrew, translates the seed as “she”, thus denoting the possibility of the Virgin being the one to do the damage to the Serpent. The Septuagint whilst accepting the possibility of the Hebrew indicating a male seed, misses out on the point of the Seed of the Woman suffering a blow to the heel. Whatever the case, what we can gather from all 3 is that the Woman will be part of the campaign to defeat the Serpent due to the fact that her Seed is the One Who will in the process of suffering a wound to the heel, would wound the head of the Serpent, which is a greater blow. Hence, both the Woman and her Seed are part of the campaign against the Serpent, Satan.

Genesis 3:15 potrayed

Genesis 3:15 potrayed

Eve, in her sincere attempt to want to partake of this prophecy mistakenly states this statement about Cain her firstborn, which all English translations fail to grasp: “קָנִיתִי אִישׁ אֶת־יְהוָֽה-I have gotten a man, even Yahweh/Jehovah” (Genesis 4:1). Whilst she had the right idea, she sadly had the wrong identity. A certain rabbinical student who discovered this whilst he was going to Israel to make Aliyah, was extremely shocked by such a statement. This led to him along with many other discoveries to find out the correct identity of the Messiah and thus truly have a homecoming not only in Israel but in Heaven above where he is today. [Details of this can be found in a book called “Out of the Clouds” (1952) by Rabbi Zvi Ben Avraham aka Dr Lawrence Forbes (1899-1964)] Hence we can see that even in the Tenach, there is clearly a case of the possibility of having such a thing as “Mother of God”.

The Blessed Virgin Mary appearing to an unbelieving Jew

The Blessed Virgin Mary appearing to an unbelieving Jew

Many centuries later, the Prophet Isaiah in the 8th century B.C around the time of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and Southern Kingdom of Judah, was given these prophecies by the God of Israel Himself:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)

In regards to the first prophecy, Judaizers, unbelieving Jews and modernistic “Christians” have stated that the term in Hebrew: “הָעַלְמָה- ha’almah, does not mean “virgin” but instead means “young woman”. This flies in the face of the passage for obvious reasons. Wicked King Ahaz pretends to be pious and states that he will not ask for a sign from Yahweh/Jehovah but is given one anyway as a rebuke for unbelief. Clearly, if it is a sign, then something supernatural is involved. What would be supernatural about a “young woman” giving birth to a son? In light of this, having a virgin birth is necessitated here. But that is not all. The word “ha’almah”, is correctly translated as virgin since it is used again in reference to Isaac’s future wife Rebekah, as a virgin woman not yet married in Genesis 24:43 as well as being used in reference to those whom Solomon has taken unto himself for wives in Song of Solomon 1:3, 6:8. The King James Translators correctly recognized the virginity involved in those situations and thus translated them as “virgin/virgins”, which is totally in accordance with Hebrew understanding of virginity before marriage. Sadly and most blasphemously, the modern translators of the modern versions have deliberately clouded the meaning in an attempt to remove the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ and have put terms which do no justice whatsoever to the text. (Good examples are the Revised Standard Version, Good News Bible, New English Bible and other modernistic translations, which have removed the word “virgin” altogether and put terms to lessen the impact of the prophecy). However, that is not all. The name of this child is also significant. “Immanuel- עִמָּנוּ אֵֽל-God is with us”. St. Matthew, who is a Jew and who wrote his Gospel for Jewish Diaspora believers thus quotes this prophecy and even translates it: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” (Matthew 1:23). That is another clear indication that this Virgin Woman is indeed the “Mother of God” since the One to be born into her will be called “Immanuel-God with us”.

Regarding the second prophecy of Isaiah, not only was Isaiah told that a Child shall be born but also we are told the titles and work of this Child: “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” And also: “and the government shall be upon his shoulder:” Not only are we told that this Child born of a Virgin Woman is Immanuel, but also that this Child is also to be called “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace”. Are these not all titles that indeed belong to God? But that is not all. In the following verse of this passage we are told this: “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.” (Isaiah 9:7) Whilst critics may scoff and state that when Jesus of Nazareth came that no kingdom was established, they are not mindful that prophecy can happen at different phases of time. One half indeed has been fulfilled. The other half will indeed be fulfilled when He returns to destroy the Antichrist and False Prophet as well as sit on the throne of David forever (II Kings 2:45) and establish the True Millennium in Jerusalem to fulfil to the letter all promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in regards to their descendants and their land. Nevertheless, we have a clear case even here that if this Child is indeed God as clearly stated, then what can we honestly conclude but that the Mother is indeed: “Mother of God”? Sadly, the Septuagint fails to grasp the depth of this prophecy by failing to retain the titles of this Child. Even St. Ignatius of Antioch, one of the earliest Apostolic Fathers, attests to this reading in the Hebrew text! [1] However, it is clear that even from such statements, there clearly is a case not only for the identity of the Messiah being Deity, but also by extension, that the Mother must be the “Mother of God” due to such an inevitable conclusion.

East gate of Jerusalem blocked by Muslim graves in defiance of the Messiah of Israel.

East gate of Jerusalem blocked by Muslim graves in defiance of the Messiah of Israel.

Another prophetic hint is given in Ezekiel 44:1-3: “Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.” We are told here not only of the gate in the east part of Jerusalem that is shut and will not be entered into except by Yahweh/Jehovah Himself and that the prince shall enter by it and eat bread before Yahweh because of this. It is interesting to note that many years after this prophecy was made, Yeshua/Jesus of Nazareth entered by this gate and was received in great acclaim as testified in the Gospels and after being rejected by His very Own, that gate was indeed shut up many centuries thereafter and was even desecrated by Muslims by placing Muslim gravestones in that area. Since this prophecy stated clearly that Yahweh/Jehovah has entered into that gate and it shall be shut after him, can we not help but conclude that the prince is none other than Yeshua/Jesus and that Jesus is none other than Yahweh/Jehovah that has entered that gate? Also, in typology, the gate has been referred to by a number of the Fathers in the Church as representative of the Blessed Virgin who has had Yahweh/Jehovah enter in her and become a Man for the salvation of mankind and that the gate is shut for her too, since this will not ever happen again in history. Either way, this Messianic prophecy cannot be ignored and gives 2 truths simultaneously: 1. The Messiah is God/Yahweh that has come and gone through the gate in the east of Jerusalem and will be returning again through there. 2. The Messiah is Virgin born and the east gate in Jerusalem was also a type of the Virgin Mary giving birth to God in the flesh. Ever thought that this could be a strong hint of the Mother of God?

As a final point of discussion from the Tenach, we should make reference to a prophecy given to the prophet Micah, who was also around the same time period as Isaiah. He states this prophecy regarding the Messiah that is to be born in future: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

Here we are not only told the birthplace of the Messiah, namely, Bethlehem Ephratah, but equally, we are told His identity: “ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting”. That is clearly an indication that this Child is no ordinary child but is actually Someone from eternity! Who else can be from eternity but Yahweh/Jehovah Himself? The Hebrew actually confirms the translation since it states: ““וּמֹוצָאֹתָיו מִקֶּדֶם מִימֵי עֹולָֽם׃” (mowtsa’ah meqedem moyowm owlam). The whole phrase in Hebrew indicates clearly that there has been a going forth since the days of everlasting or eternity. That being the case, is it not now an inevitable conclusion that if indeed the Messiah to be born is from eternity, thus indicating Deity, then what can we conclude about the mother of the Messiah, but to state that she is indeed the “Mother of God”?

Now I know a number of my Jewish friends and readers will now be shaking their heads and stating: “How can God be man? How can God have a mother?” My dear Jewish friends, this is now an inevitable conclusion from the Tenach that you hold to. You may not understand it, but does God have to fit into man’s puny sense of reason and understanding? If so, then He ceases to be God since God Himself stated: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8, 9) God is God and what He has revealed about Himself, let it be so! That is true Faith whether we like it or not. May God remove the veil from your eyes that you have every time you read the Torah/Tenach. [As a side note for my Jewish reader, when the word “Messiah” is mentioned for the first time in the whole of the Tenach, he is associated with death not for Himself. (Daniel 9:26). This is just one more piece of the puzzle for you but I leave that for now].


Now for all the Christian readers, whether you claim to be Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, this section is specially for you. We briefly alluded to the fact that St. Matthew, in his Gospel of Matthew 1:23 confessed that the Messiah/Christ is indeed Immanuel, God with us. If you can accept that the Messiah/Christ is indeed Immanuel, God with us, then how can you not accept the obvious, namely that the Virgin Mary, is indeed the Mother of God? There is something more worth considering too. By the time we come to the Gospel of St. Luke, we are told that Elizabeth, who bore St. John the Baptist the Forerunner of Christ, who happens to be the cousin of the Blessed Virgin Mary, has this statement to make: “And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:42-44)

Please notice 3 things:

  1. Elizabeth salutes Mary as “Blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb”(v42). She acknowledges the importance of both Mary and her Child in the Divine Plan.
  2. She acknowledges that this Child in the womb is none other than her Lord! (“mother of my Lord”-v43). If that is the case, the Child is Jehovah/Yahweh and therefore Mary is indeed the Mother of God! The Jehovah’s Witnesses and other heretics have a hard time accepting this one! I used it on them on a few occasions and they were always stumped on this one.
  3. The babe in the womb of Elizabeth (St. John the Baptist) rejoiced at the arrival of Jesus! (v44). Clearly, babies in the womb are living beings! Abortionists, choke on that one! Furthermore, St. John the Baptist clearly acknowledged Jesus Christ as being superior to himself, even from the womb. Even the heretical religion of Islam admits this via their Hadiths and commentators on the Qu’ran! “She [i.e. Mary] came to her sister who was then pregnant and to whom the birth of the Baptist had been announced. When the two met, the Baptist’s mother felt that her child was bowing within her in recognition of Jesus…” (History of Al-Tabari, Volume 1V [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], p. 114 And also: “The sister visited Mary and said, ‘O Mary, do you perceive that I am with child?’ Mary answered, ‘Do you see that I am also with child?’ Her sister went on, ‘I feel the child in my womb bowing down to the child in your womb.’…”It is reported that she felt the fetus in her womb bow down with its head turned toward Mary’s womb.” (Ayoub, The Qur’an and Its Interpreters, The House of Imran [State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany 1992], p108) Even Ibn Abbas admits: “Yehia [John the Baptist] bowing down in the womb of his mother, is his accepting that Jesus Son of Mary is the Word of God” (Ibn Kathir, commenting on Sura 3:39). So the Muslims can go and run around in circles all they want to try and make Muhammad superior to Christ, but the evidence is clearly against them from whichever angle they look at it! Why would St. John the Baptist bow to Christ in the womb unless Christ is clearly God in the flesh?! And for that matter, if such is the case, why do Protestants and Judaizers have a hard time accepting the obvious conclusion now that the Virgin Mary is indeed the “Mother of God”?
The Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Elizabeth.

The Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Elizabeth.

I should also point out that when the Blessed Virgin gave the Magnificat in Luke 1:46-55, she not only rejoices in God her Saviour, a clear reference to our Lord, but also remembers that the Child in her womb is meant as a fulfilment to the house of Israel regarding the promises made to Abraham and the fathers of Israel. (Luke 1:54, 55). So she clearly accepts her role in the Messianic prophecy and also accepts that Israel is important due to the promises of her God to Abraham and the Patriarchs of Israel. And thus, by extension, she also accepts that indeed she is the bearer of both the Messiah of Israel and also God of her fathers too! Anti-Semites in the Church, please watch out now, you are offending 2 Israelites/Jews here!

St. Simeon-the God Receiver.

St. Simeon-the God Receiver.

By the time we come to St. Simeon, who is an ailing priest in the Temple in Jerusalem, we find that as he is performing the rites of consecration of the Child Jesus in the Temple, in accordance to the Law of Moses, he thus states this blessing regarding the Child Jesus: “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.” (Luke 2:29-32) St. Simeon thus acknowledges that the Messiah before his eyes is salvation for all the world, and a light to the Gentiles as well as the glory of “thy people, Israel”. He also gives this prophecy to the Virgin Mary as well: “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 1:34, 35) Here we see that not only is our Lord meant to be for the rise and falling of many in Israel and will experience opposition, but that the suffering would be such that even the Blessed Virgin herself will feel a sword piercing her soul too as a result of such evil actions. We see this clearly at the Crucifixion of our Lord whereby this indeed occurred. Our Lord seeing this grief of His Mother, states this: “Woman, behold thy Son!” (John 19:26). In a state of compassion, our Lord states to St. John the Apostle who is present at the time: “’Behold thy mother!’ And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.” (John 19:27) Our Lord could indeed see the grief His Blessed Mother was enduring as part of this plan of defeating Satan, the Serpent and Adversary, and thus offers his disciple, the Apostle John, the place of being the son for His grieving Mother, to which the Apostle John rightly responded and accepted her in his own home as his own mother. IF ST. JOHN THE APOSTLE AS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CHURCH, COULD ACCEPT THE VIRGIN MARY AS HIS OWN MOTHER AS CHRIST COMMANDED, WHY ARE OTHERWISE WELL MEANING PROTESTANTS SO BLIND AS TO NOT ACCEPT THE VIRGIN MARY AS THEIR OWN MOTHER OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?

Theotokos and St. John at the Crucifixion.

Theotokos and St. John at the Crucifixion.

If indeed, as proven above, that Christ is God/Yahweh/Jehovah, and that indeed, the Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed the Mother of God based on that fact, then how is it that a number of Christians have such difficulty accepting this and are so intent on accusing idolatry and paganism? Do you want to accuse the Apostles of this too?

Finally, we have a picture in Revelation 12:1-17 of the woman whom Satan hates. Throughout history and even to present day, let us ask one simple question: Which of the following receives the most negative and mocking portrayals by godless leftists, atheists, and all manner of evil men: the Virgin Mary, the Church of Christ in the world, Israel/the Jewish people as a nation? The correct answer is that all 3 are subject to such evil attacks by Satan and godless sons of Belial. Whilst some may single out the description of the woman as: “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars” (Apocalypse/Revelation 12:1) as being a clear reference to Israel based on Genesis 37:9, which is indeed correct, yet one truth does not dismiss another truth. The woman can also be the Blessed Virgin on account of her giving birth to Christ and suffering such opposition on earth even now by Satan and his forces. And by extension, the Church is a partaker of the Woman since the Church is part of the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2:12 and has by the Blessed Virgin Mary as Mother as discussed above, and is equally attacked by Satan and his mob on earth too. Nevertheless, God is merciful and the attacks of Satan against Israel, the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Church are doomed to failure as the passage indicates clearly. So clearly based on the above, Christ is out to defend all 3, and therefore, how is it that Protestants and Judaizers are so intent on attacking the Blessed Virgin Mary, which is also a slap in the face of Christ our God as much as attacking the Church and Israel is a slap in His face too.

The Woman of Apocalypse/Revelation Chapter 12 and the Dragon illustrated

The Woman of Apocalypse/Revelation Chapter 12 and the Dragon illustrated


Based on the above, St. Irenaeus of Lyons had this to state regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary in relation to her role as being part of the plan of salvation of mankind and to defeat Satan via the Seed of her womb, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God and Very God of Very God:

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Early Apostolic Father and disciple of St. Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle, St. John

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Early Apostolic Father and disciple of St. Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle, St. John

As Eve was seduced by the word of an angel and so fled from God after disobeying his word, Mary in her turn was given the good news by the word of an angel, and bore God in obedience to his word. As Eve was seduced into disobedience to God, so Mary was persuaded into obedience to God; thus the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve.

Christ gathered all things into one, by gathering them into himself. He declared war against our enemy, crushed him who at the beginning had taken us captive in Adam, and trampled on his head, in accordance with God’s words to the serpent in Genesis: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall lie in wait for your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel.” (Against Heresies, Lib. 5, 19, 1; 20, 2; 21,1: SC 153, 248-250. 260-264)

Therefore, we can clearly conclude that understanding this concept correctly is to bring glory to Christ, since He is the Seed of the Woman that defeats Satan and the Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed part of this campaign to defeat Satan since she submits to God and resists Satan (James 4:7). For Jews, understanding this will not only help bring great understanding of who the Messiah is, but also more importantly, will help understand that the Messiah is the One Whom they have spurned but nevertheless promises to redeem them towards the end of time, when He returns to defeat the Antichrist that has deceived them and sought their destruction. A correct understanding of the Mother of God will indeed be helpful for this purpose since she still wishes for the Jewish nation to repent and believe on her Son, their only hope and salvation, both in eternity and in the future kingdom to come. For Christians, a correct understanding of this concept will indeed help bring proper perspective of prophecy too as well as appreciate the value of accepting the reality of Christ being Very God of Very God. It is also the means to refute serious heresies that deny the Deity of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and the means to motivate us for holiness in our battle against evil.

Christ is born-Glorify Him. (Orthodox Christmas Greeting)

God Bless. Glory be to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Both now and forever and unto the ages upon ages. Amen.

[1] “The prophets also, when they speak as in the person of God, [saying,] I am God, the first [of beings], and I am also the last, and besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 44:6) concerning the Father of the universe, do also speak of our Lord Jesus Christ. A Son, they say, has been given to us, on whose shoulder the government is from above; and His name is called the Angel of great counsel, Wonderful, Counsellor, the strong and mighty God. (Isaiah 9:6) And concerning His incarnation, Behold, a virgin shall be with Child, and shall bring forth a Son; and they shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23) And concerning the passion, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before her shearers is dumb, I also was an innocent lamb led to be sacrificed. (Isaiah 53:7; Jeremiah 11:19)” –Ignatius, Letter to the Antiochenes (Chapter 3)

  • Great job, Thomas, and I think you have covered it all with one exception.

    God also had a legal reason why Jesus must be born of a virgin. In the Law, it is said that God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of their father to their children, to the third, even the fourth generation.

    For those who slanderously say that Jesus was conceived by Joseph and Mary’s union or go so far to say that Jesus was a child of rape, they makes Christ’s atoning death at the Cross to be null and void.

    Through Christ’s obedience and death at the Cross, God nailed the hand written requirements of the Law because they were contrary to us and against us, and taking it out of the way, God made a spectacle of victory over the Law, and condemned the hold of sins, which is death, through Christ in the flesh. God also disarmed Satan’s ability to accuse us by, again, nailing the requirements of the Law to the Cross.

    I also thank God for divinely appointing Joseph to be Mary’s husband to protect the Holy Family because Satan has always hated the family unit from the beginning, it shall be so until he is finally defeated once and for all when he is cast into the Lake of Fire. Even so, Joseph, operating out of free will, had to be encouraged by the angel Gabriel that the Child in Mary’s womb was the Savior, because he, under the Law had every rights to divorce Mary, and he was, undoubtedly, under pressure to have Mary stoned on the suspicion of adultery. Yet, he went against social pressure and obeyed God in his calling to be Mary’s husband, and Jesus’ step-father.

    • ace

      There is another tradition that Joseph, once he understood that Mary had been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, in humility was afraid to take Mary as his wife, until encouraged by the angel, because, as She was the new Ark of the Covenant, he did not feel worthy to be her protector (much less touch her – even on the outside, like to help her mount an animal to ride it)…

      • Interesting.

        I’m also going by the Law because he was well within his rights to divorce Mary yet the very Law also stacks against him, hence why he was seriously considering secretly divorcing her.

        There’s a passage from Deutronomy that spells out the requirement to prove the virginity of the bride if the husband suspects she is not a virgin. That is what I am basing my reasoning on.

      • racarrera

        Well-stated point, Ace. Quite a heavy thought.

        • ace

          And, once the Blessed Virgin had been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, She was the spouse of the Holy Spirit (and couldn’t intimately belong to Joseph). Carrying Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, in Her womb, Mary, the new Ark of the Covenant, also becomes the human being who has known Him the longest.
          (Except, perhaps, that Adam and Eve may have seen Him in the Garden of Eden, since Jesus was in the beginning with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Remember in Genesis where it says they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day? And then, after the Resurrection, remember when Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene and she initially thinks he is the gardener?
          But, let’s go back to the earlier premise. Just like God said to Jeremiah the prophet “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you”, I believe God knew the Blessed Virgin Mary from all eternity, and time is just a construct for us mere humans. In our timeframe, the question then become when did we first become aware of the One God who knew us before we knew Him?)

          • racarrera

            You already answered the question well. God is timeless, and operates outside of it. God fore-ordained that the Theotokos would be the woman who would ‘birth’ Him into the world and come as Emmanuel. I think that Jesus’ words to His mother would have been a clear indication, and by the Church had made its pronouncements via Ecumenical Council, it was already a foregone conclusion.

      • Hazel Waldron

        We need to be careful with ‘tradition’ Only with the Bible can we be sure we are following that which is true.

        • When you say “we need to be careful of tradition” which “tradition” are you talking about “Man’s tradition” or “God’s tradition”?

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Sacred Oral Tradition, with a big “T” is often confused with tradition small “t”.

            Deposit of Faith = Apostolic Tradition (or Sacred Oral Tradition) + Sacred Scriptures This is hardly taught in modernist, almost secular “churches” today.

      • WhiteHorse

        good point; i agree.

  • Willing to die for Jesus

    Yes, thanks Thomas for this article. If that still doesn’t convince people, this video outlines the scriptural basis of the Blessed Virgin Mary as well as Her crucial importance as the Woman in Rev 12.

    It has been on YouTube without any negative feedback and is a true blessing.


    • I’m about a minute into the video, and immediately noticed they are using the Law of First Mentions as well as hemenuritics (sp?).

  • Tom_mcewen

    I hope this helps protestant understanding, now for some, Mary and Christ is far from each other as east is from the west.

    • mspip

      hoping to gain understanding from this being raised in protestant family, tho not lutheran, there was much talk about the errors of catholicism. not the errors of protestants etc of course…. i have learned a lot from this site.

      • racarrera

        Be brave, patient and honest, and you’ll learn a lot here. Trust me on that.

        • mspip

          have learned a good bit already.

          • Seraphim2478

            Ms pip, you are becoming a spiritual astronaut!!

          • mspip

            i reckon that’s good.

          • Seraphim2478

            Indeed…indeed…no sarcasm intended! 😉

          • Seraphim2478

            Elder Paisos of Greece was always fond of coming up with these type of sayings, I think his creativity is rubbing off on me, now if I can get his holiness to rub off on me, I would be very happy!! I am a useless servant and I place my hope in God’s mercy and compassion!! Peace be to you sister!! 🙂

          • Grandmere

            Love my Pip.

          • mspip

            love to you grandmere, always enjoy your notes here. some funny, some not, some informing and correcting, all is needed. those on here for the most part seem to have their heads on straight.

        • Kkdgrace

          Actually, despite some pretty twisted comments, I have to say that this (so far) as been one of the better comment sections on the identity/nature/etc. of the Mother of God. Usually it descends rapidly to an insult-fest and not much understanding is gained after reading the whole thing…just a very bad case of heartburn. You can find some “meat” in this, at least. I understand why the Council chose the term Theotokus for Mary but I know many Ptotestants have difficulty with that term. It would serve them well to read a little deeper (if at all) into Church history. I think a problem as well is in viewing our Triune God as three *distinct* persons….almost like three separate Gods, although I don’t think that’s intentional. To me it’s rather simple: Is Christ God or isn’t he? And if you say that Christ Jesus is God, to whom did Mary bear/give birth? The Trinity is a mystery- why must man think he has to reason out everything, down to the very last jot and tittle? We can’t reason our way into understanding how the Trinity “works”! Ah well- I’m getting all twisted again with trying to “clarify” myself! You have yourself a very blessed Christmas, Rudy!

          • racarrera

            I certainly agree. We’ll always have a few wingnuts show up, especially on holy days (they seem to congregate here more often on such fests). The wonderful thing is that not all Protestants are the same. We have many who both understand the idea of the Theotokos, even if they don’t understand the verbage we use. That’s not such a big deal, so long as the concept sinks in.

            Have a wonderful Theophany and a very Merry Christmas, Kkdgrace!

  • Thomas, I should also point out that while Islam halfway acknowledge Jesus’ immaculate conception, they stop short of acknowledging who Jesus’ father is, saying that He was a miracle for He was conceived without a father.

    • Стефан Евгений

      And they got the wrong Mary, the sister of Moses

  • Thomas

    In the last days the angels of darkness will portray themselves as angels of light .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • RodK1975

    “[W]hy do Protestants and Judaizers have a hard time accepting the obvious
    conclusion now that the Virgin Mary is indeed the “Mother of God”?”

    Like with so many other things, it’s a situation of “I say toe-may-toe, you say toe-mah-toe”, the false assumption people make that “your” phraseology is and/or has to be exactly the same as “mine” and an unwillingness of both parties to make an effort to understand what the other party means when they use a certain term or phrase. Of course, you’re going to have contrarians in any group, but those people aside for now, a lot of the confusion with the term comes from nuances in peoples “Christianese”. When the average Protestant/Evangelical says “God”, they mean one of two things either God as “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” or if they are referring to God the Father only, they’ll just say “God”. When referring to Jesus Christ only, they’ll use “Christ, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God the Son” and then of course, referring to the Holy Spirit only, they’ll say “Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, God the Holy Spirit”. That isn’t a written rule anywhere, that’s just how the ‘lingo’ has developed. So, when most Protestants/Evangelicals hear “Mother of God” the image or concept that sort of unconsciously pops into their head is either “Mother of God the Father” or “Mother of the Trinity”. They may not articulate it in those exact terms, but that is the concept or idea that they’re thinking of. Hence, they feel uncomfortable at the use of the term “Mother of God”.

    Now, do correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that when Catholics use the title “Mother of God” and Orthodox use the term “Theotokos” what they are basically saying is “the Virgin Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son”. And yes, there are many Protestants/Evangelicals that do understand “Mother of God” in it’s correct context. Mainly the people that object are people that either a) are just contrarian and like and want an argument or b) people that just have not been exposed to Catholic and Orthodox theology and have been told superstition and baloney (and sadly a lot of people are in this situation). Most of the regular commenters here on this site are people that are good at learning, studying and understanding the Bible and Theology, but I dare say most people are not like that. What they know is what they’ve been told in their church and that’s it. That’s not an excuse, but it is what it is.

    This is where the Fruit of the Spirit would come in handy. Christianity could come a long way if people would exercise some patience, love and kindness and explain themselves and listen to the other side instead of throwing stones. It takes time, contemplation, effort, humility and seriousness to understand each other, people… it’s not as easy as simply reading what someone says Catholics or Protestants or the Orthodox believe or teach or understand about a topic or doctrine, it takes getting to know people and learning about their Christianity through them as a person and more importantly respecting each other as a fellow follower of Christ.

    Anyway, I’ll step down from off of my soapbox now… Great article, Thomas, I really enjoyed it.

    • Стефан Евгений

      Hey! Rodk, I will give you the best meaning of what Theotokos (God bearer) is.
      She who gave birth to He who is,…… as in the” I am” He who is.

      • RodK1975

        Hehe… I was going to add “God bearer” in but I just left it like it was… I didn’t want to confuse anyone…

        • Стефан Евгений

          Well….. what’s wrong in having an education?

          • RodK1975

            Nothing at all… :-))… If you only knew the spaghetti web that’s in my brain!

          • Стефан Евгений

            I have CP, I feel traped sometimes, couse what is in my head can’t come out. Spelling and Math ,,my brain has a hard time doin. but. I make up for it in other ways

          • RodK1975

            I know what you mean, I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words and articulating them in an orderly fashion. I don’t know how to explain it, other than to say it’s like I think in an unspoken language sometimes and I have a hard time translating it and putting it into words. Plus the fact that my brain gets to racing and is cluttered up like the attic of an 80 year old hoarder… :-))…

          • mspip

            as we get older it seems like the brain is getting too full and it can be difficult to bring to surface the things that are stored there. or maybe it is just age doing what that does.

          • Seraphim2478

            Pajulsta!! Most esteemed… Brother…What do you mean by “CP”?

          • Стефан Евгений
          • mspip

            you sure do make up for it. contributing good comments with lots of sense.

          • Стефан Евгений

            mspip, It takes me for like forever to type.

          • mspip

            all of us are given some kind of problem, tho at times it’s hard to see it as a gift. you are better able than some of us at making sensible comments. have seen a few weird posts here and there .

          • Стефан Евгений

            Thank you! sorry for being late, Orthodox Christmas you know.

          • mspip

            spaghetti in lots of our brains. winding around and getting stuck, ack. need to find a way to throw the junk out.

    • Doc

      I accept this as what is going on as well. If catholics referred to Mary as “Mother of Christ” instead of “Mother of God” I don’t think there would ever be another controversy about the matter.

      • RodK1975

        Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, however, this illustrates my point perfectly. The term “Mother of Christ” or Christotokos means something totally different to Catholics and Orthodox than how you or I would mean it and understand it… This goes back to the heresy of Nestorianism (and the First Council of Ephesus) which denies Christ was fully human and fully God… I know you don’t mean it that way, which illustrates how terminologies mean different things to different people and are understood in different way by different people… Someone that comes along and doesn’t know what you mean will accuse you of being Nestorian, teaching heresy and that would offend you because it’s not true then an argument would ensue and it would be messy, when you both meant the same thing… Which is why I say people need to take time and patience in learning and trying to understand each other instead of flying off the handle and tossing accusations and so forth at one another…

        You’re a daisy if you do… lol!

        • Стефан Евгений

          MY! what have you been Reading?

          • RodK1975

            I read and think, brat… 😉

          • Стефан Евгений

            More, is the pity that most that comment here, do not… brat!!!!! 🙂

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Colossians 2:9 should end the ‘argument’ – in Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

        • Jimi Belton

          Does Mary become or is a part of this God-head? Just asking please

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Did I or anyone say that she is part of the Godhead? You obviously know NOTHING of our doctrine all the while attacking what you think we believe. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are the 3 members of the Godhead.

          • He was also saying that Jesus’ blood was not from Mary and that Jesus was from Yahweh’s bloodline … and now another (Hazel Waldron) was even dissecting Jesus as in a lab and these guys do not realize they are becoming steeped into heresy of Valentinianism which taught that Holy Spirit deposited the Christ Child in Mary’s womb and that Mary was the a surrogate mother, but not truly Christ’s genetic mother. The Apostle Paul refutes this when he writes, “God sent His Son, made of a woman.”

            What part of “made OF a WOMAN” do they not understand? That alone shows that Mary was crucial.

            They rabble on playing gymnastics while offending and becoming offended. They are telling us one thing “why are you not as mad as us” so they think we are mad and they are sane.

          • Jimi Belton

            Walid, ask any MD about the blood of any human born….A tiny fetes develops its own source of blood, and that blood does not come from the Mother that carries that baby….If I am wrong tell me why a mother will have a child with a different blood type….The Blood that was made in the Fetas of Baby Jesus just like the blood source from all mothers…..
            M.R. Dehaun [MD] wrote a book called ” Power Of The Blood”…I offer friendly advice to all to get this book from Moody Press….wish I still had a copy..

          • What every heretic does best is to try to analyze what is a mystery by comparing Jesus to any human case as if God has to adhere to science when He is beyond science. Always trying to dissect God into a manmade logic never ceases to be the way of a heretic.

          • Jimi Belton

            Walid G-d is the authur of science….It is so sweet when he shows His people a preview of what we will be totally knowledgeable of….This is a Mystery to some but what Blessing my soul received after reading this great short book….There is no ZERO mystery about any of this, It simply shows that before the foundations of the earth, YHVH had His perfect design laid out , and to see how Humanity has been made And Perfect Sinless Jesus did not have to receive any of the contaminated blood from fallen Adam, ….See He is sitting in the heavens having a great chuckle at the foolish teachings of fallen humanity, and their error ous teaching….But continue to push this doctrine of Baalam, Trying to pollute the Holiness of His Word, by blending in the worship of Angles, and the Former [virgin] Mary, Bless her also,…Yes we Christians do bless the young Virgin Mother, [of Jesus}….But it is your call, sir, The Holy Spirit, that dwells in my heart and soul and my very being, Has given me a word about your very ministries….But to be the ”heretic” you know me for, I will not go any further than this….Prepare your own Soul and preach the undivided word of truth to your ”Followers”, May G-d have mercy on you and me also…Walid, I have to daily try to keep my soul pure So I am not trying to act superior in any way….I have to plead the Cleansing of His Blood so often at unchristian things in my life such as pride….But I will suffer any and all name calling or any thing that is tossed my way….Thank you….Jb

          • I can’t believe you’re even asking this.

      • racarrera

        Rod beat me to the answer, Doc, so read what he says. It’s quite exact.

        • RodK1975

          Thanks, Rudy… that’s a nice compliment, I appreciate it…

          • racarrera

            You earned it, bud.

      • mspip

        probably not. but Christ is God the Son and Mary is his mother.

    • Kamau41

      Very well thought out and explained Rod. Amen brother.

      • RodK1975

        Thanks, Kamau… 🙂

    • Seraphim2478

      To take what you say further Rodk1975, when we explain to the non-apostolic christian, that we “venerate” ,”honor” a saint, angel , the Theotokos. They immediately think we “worship” these. Even in the dictionary it will not help apostolic christians, we find that veneration can mean worship!! Even though this is obviously not what we do. We do show honor and reverence for such according to our ability and good will. Somehow it is acceptable to honor a war veteran or a heroic public figure, but not acceptable to honor holiness in a human being?? God is wondrous in his saints. Since Jesus Christ clothed himself in the robe of flesh, He touched all of creation and sanctified it and blessed it and all creation praises him, each in its own language.

      • Julie

        Thanks great insight – and depth. As they looked upon Him on the cross…He raises all up to Himself.

        There is so much more to Christ’s death and resurrection and it is sad to see Christian brethren only go so far in their perception to reduce all to text with no humanity.

        • Seraphim2478

          Today the nature of water is sanctified. Jordan is divided in two, and turns back the stream of its waters, beholding the Master being baptized. ( Theophany the hymn for the blessing of the waters) we can witness here, how the Church reveals the Mysterious (sacramental) nature of creation there is now no “real” dichotomy between the “secular” and the “holy”. The quicker we remove this artificial construct, the quicker the world can be revisited and unearthed to reveal the true sacramental conciousness of this good yet fallen wold.“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor. 15:28) 😉

      • ChiRho

        Well said Seraphim.

    • ChiRho

      Well said Rod. Humility is a big key that many people could use more of.
      Like you noted, a lot of this problem of the title is cultural. Protestants hear that prase and it feels weird like Mary is being made into a god. I read so much arguing back and forth here before the first time someone finally explained where the title came from and why. Then it made sense and wasnt so threatening. It was to counter the heresy of Jesus being made to not be really a part of God. Like you said, the terminology of ‘God’ here is referencing Jesus, but most Protestants, though believing the Two are both part of the Trinity, dont ever refer to Jesus in that manner.
      Protestants also dont typically know this history, and many times Latins are too quick to get angry before trying to explain.

      • RodK1975

        Thanks, ChiRho, I appreciate it!

        • ChiRho

          You’re welcome. This knowleedge needs to be heard.



      • RodK1975

        Thanks for the reply, Parks…

    • Rod,

      Perhaps hear our eastern version of the “Hail Mary” and hopefully it will be a prelude to help me share some of my thoughts (which I realized are unsolicited):

      Rejoice o’ virgin Theotokos, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou has born the savior of our souls.

      This eastern form I think most clearly expresses the Catholic/Orthodox understanding of Mary. Jesus Christ is God. To deny this, obviously, is to deny the Trinity and the saving work of Jesus Christ (among so many other things pertaining to sound doctrine.) We have to look at John, “In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God” and it goes on to see that “He was with Him in the beginning.” Therefore, as was the Arian controversy, the Holy Fathers prevailed in declaring that Jesus was from eternity past and triumphed over Arian who stated, “There was a time when the son of God was not.” Therefore, those self-righteous individuals who think it is an act of piety to declare Mary was the “mother of Jesus” in essence deny his divinity and his position among the God head.

      What is a strange dichotomy is that there are those who declare Jesus Christ is God while deny that Mary is the mother of God. My question to them often is, “When did Jesus become God?” Many will of course try to come back with their biblical knowledge of “according to the bible, he was always God.” However (on a side note) they forget or don’t know, Arian was using the bible to prove there was a time when the son of God was not. Therefore, if Jesus was God from eternity past, did he stop being God in the womb? Of course not, and it is from this premise that it is clear, Mary is the mother of God. Mary did not give birth to the Godhead, Mary is not a 4th person of the Trinity, but in Orthodox terminology and understanding, Mary is intimately linked and tied to her son.

      Protestants have tried to separate Jesus from his Mother. If you ever heard the Orthodox say something to the effect of Blessed Virgin Theotokos, Save Us, they are not replacing Jesus with Mary as the savior of the world. This statement refers to the very fact that Jesus is the savior and Mary has brought forth the saviour of our souls into this world. Misguided, non-understanding Protestants, continue to misrepresent the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. It is further the reason they have turned the “church” into a “spiritual” union worldwide, and this is what makes it, “One, Holy, Catholic (i.e. universal) and apostolic church” because they actually have departed from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church, abhor its dogma and proclamations and ultimately have denied the very fact of the Theotokos, and her place among the church.

      I fear that the hatred of Mary actually stems from the hatred Satan had of Eve. Listen to Justin Martyr (160), “He became man by the virgin, in order that the disobedience which began with the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived to word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. Bu the virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her.”

      When it was shouted to Jesus, “Blessed are the breasts which nursed you” and Jesus replied, “Blessed rather is he who hears the word of God and does it” protestants use this scripture to prove that Jesus was giving no credit to his Mother or was setting up only himself and this was a clear indication he did not want any “worship” to go to his Mother or anyone else. However, when Jesus said, “Blessed rather” he was making a direct reference to his Mother and her obedience. Scripture is clear, when the angel came to Mary, she “found favor with God.” Jesus said, “Blessed rather is he who hears the word of God and does it.” Could Mary have not been obedient in her early life? Could Mary have not wanted to bring forth God? Could Mary have rejected the persecution that would come to her from being the Mother of the savior of the world? However, in all phases, Mary was found and remained obedient. Obedient to what? She was truly obedient to the Word of God! Those that want to be, “Sola Scriptura” let them look to the Theotokos who was the one who found favor with God because of her obedience. Jesus said it is those who hear the word of God and DO IT, who will find favor and his mother is the example of that.

      Irenaeus writing in 180, like many of the ante-Nicene fathers, wrote extensively on the contrast of Eve’s disobedience with Mary’s obedience. In fact Irenaeus wrote, “Mary, who was a virgin, by yielding obedience, became the cause of SALVATION, both to herself and the human race,” and also, “For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”

      Rod my friend, you appear to be continually growing in Orthodoxy at heart as we all seek to do. I think Steve wrote sometime around Christmas about Orthodoxy meaning “correct glory.” He provided a link to a priest who clearly described what correct glory means; it is something we are all on a path to hope to attain. Please do not be discouraged by the things people say to attack the Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. God bless you my friend.

      • RodK1975

        Once again, Vinny, you’ve given a balance and well thought-out explanation and again, this is why I like reading your comments, I learn something from all of your comments… Thanks, Brother!

        • Well Rod Vinny sounds like great Wine and is the best of vintages.

          • RodK1975

            I agree, Mr Shoebat, Vinny always seems to have wise and thought provoking words, even though everyone may not agree with him, he still has thoughtful and civil comments and responses, it’s too bad more people can’t emulate him… I tried on my comment that he was replying to, but to not much avail… the comment section still turned into bedlam despite my efforts to foster understanding… but, Oh well, never give up, never give in, Jesus never said being a peacemaker would be easy…

  • Стефан Евгений
  • Tom_mcewen

    I use watched YouTube on the evil Catholic church, if these protestants knew about cars as think they know about the Catholic church I could sell them cars with cardboard engines.

    • Стефан Евгений

      You should see what they say bout Orthodox, we are worse, hahahah

      • Tom_mcewen

        I didn’t think they could spell Orthodox.

        • Стефан Евгений

          And brother Tom, they can’t pronounce “Theotokos” you should hear the ratbags. A total twisting of facts.

          • racarrera

            We’re either Jewish or ‘Ruskies’ to these folks.

  • theophorus
    • AnthonyM

      “Fight, children of light, you little number who see clearly, for behold the time of times, the end of ends”

  • Kamau41

    “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”(Genesis 3:15).
    “And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:42-44). Another excellent and solid article, Thomas. Church History/the Holy Scriptures, written by the Saints, clearly reveals without question that our Blessed Virgin Mother is indeed God’s Mother period. We pray that many eyes will be opened to having a correct understanding of the Mother of God.

  • koolmom21

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    233 “Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.”
    Mary is the Mother of Jesus so ergo the Mother of God.
    Nice article Thomas
    God’s blessings

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Howdy!! Where have you been, sunshine?

      • koolmom21

        I’ve been diagnosis with hereditary chronic pancreatitis. I have been in and out of the hospital and the last time I had surgery to help open my ducts. Too fun-not. I am feeling better now and hoping to stay that way for a long time.
        It’s good to be back but I have missed so much. I will have to play catch up for a long while.
        I hope all is well with you Julie and Happy New Year!
        God’s blessings

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I’m sorry to hear of your diagnosis – I have a friend that has had pancreatitis, I know her bouts were horribly painful. Hope you feel well enough to stick around, sure missed you – I know Grandmere has asked about your absence as well.

          • koolmom21

            Thank you so much Julie. I do have good days and bad days so it’s all in God’s hands. I am sorry to hear about your friend and I hope she is doing well. I’ve missed you all as well and everyone has been so sweet on my return. Grandmere and you are two of my favorite bloggers, I have a few more but I always look forward to your wisdom on the articles.
            Back to my homework. God’s blessings

        • Grandmere

          Lot’s of prayers will be going up for you. XO

          • koolmom21

            Thank you,thank you and thank you Grandmere! It means a lot to me knowing prayers are being said on my behalf. God knows I still need them. I do have good days and bad days but I am hanging in there for now. I am happy to be back but I’ve missed so much. I am working on my homework; reading some of the articles I’ve missed.
            God’s blessings Grandmere and HAPPY NEW YEAR! XO to you also

    • Kamau41

      We missed you dearly Koolmom. So glad to see you back again. Hope you had a very Blessed Christmas season and Happy New Year…

      • koolmom21

        Thank you Kamau! Nice to be back and I have missed all of you too. .
        Christmas was so much fun this year and so far the New Year has been good. I hope you had a very Blessed Christmas season and Happy New Year also. I have missed so much and now time to play catch up. LOL
        God’s blessings

  • racarrera

    Both the article and the comments today are sterling.

    • Well, that’s before all the comments being held up are approved. Jeez.

      • racarrera

        Ahh, true that… We have to wait for the moron-a-thon that will commence shortly.

        • They already are here. Whack-a-mole is now commencing. Grabbing the popcorn because this will be amusing to see them spin their wheels.

          • racarrera

            Here, it’s pouring and I’m finally settled down for coffee. I’ll enjoy that (and popcorn later) for now, and watch the scholars whack the less-than-scholarly for a while.

          • Стефан Евгений
          • racarrera

            It’s war, then. No one touches the Holy Mountain.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Turkey, has some real big balls to touch The Garden of the holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.
            They may get

          • racarrera

            They will. I’m expecting Turkey to f**k up very soon, and when they do, I hope Russia crushes the head of that worthless serpent.

          • Kamau41

            Indeed. They are sure enough already coming thru like a vengeance.

          • I think that there should be a distinction between traditional Protestants who partially hold to the Orthodox school of thoughts and liberal Protestants who are wrecking theology with innovations.

            For example, as much grief Martin Luther have caused and continues to receive, it is undeniable that he held to several Catholic/Orthodoxy teachings such as upholding Mary’s perpetual virginity, the Eucharist as the living body of Christ, and so forth. Where Luther went askew is his criticism of the Pope as Antichrist and worst of all, his The Jews and Their Lies.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Where is Grandmere when we need her?

          • Family issue. Keep her and her husband in prayer.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Sure will.

          • Grandmere

            Papa having surgery. Mother in law and brother in law both in the hospital.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Wow – hope all recover and that you survive the stress.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            My prayers for their speedy recovery and healing for your Papa, Grandmere.

          • Стефан Евгений

            You got candles dear

  • I care because so many have been deceived by them, including Christians who got deceived by them. So their theology matters a great deal.

    • racarrera

      And it is a Christian attribute to care even for one’s enemies to come back to Christ. Anything less than that is worthy of the Devil and that’s all.

      • And it’s also the duty of Christian to bring back one who have strayed in error.

        • racarrera

          We have too many ‘kill them all, let God sort them out’ types, which is utterly non-Christian. Warfare is acceptable. Blind rage murder isn’t.

          • I think that is where I struggle the most. I am horrified at what Muslims have done in the name of allah, thinking that they are doing God a service, and I am equally repulsed by some Christians who are teaching that Islam and Christianity are sister faith when theologically, it does not even begin to line up on fundamental, core doctrines.

            It sometime makes me boil to the point of seething rage.

          • racarrera

            These things make me burn, too, but then again, so do hypocrites believing they can sin with impunity and pretend that they are, in fact, Christian (Once Saved, Always Saved as an example)

          • RodK1975

            Exactly, grace should make us so grateful to God that we put extra effort into resisting temptation and refraining from sin… sigh…

          • RodK1975

            And in case I don’t get another chance before Thursday… Merry Christmas, Rudy!

          • racarrera

            I thank you, my friend!

          • Seraphim2478

            Racarrera, I wish you very blessed Nativity! Christ is born!!!

          • racarrera

            And to you, brother in Christ. We Glorify Him!

          • RodK1975

            And a Merry Christmas to you Seraphim…

          • Seraphim2478

            Thank you Rod, may you continue the journey and may you prosper in the knowledge of God!!

          • Lenn

            Well, the Pope and his Vatican claim that you worship the same god: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/vatican-spokesman-islam-teaches-non-violence-in-the-name-of-god … You find salvation in the Bible. At the Cross of Jesus Christ.

          • I know that, bub. I don’t pay attention to the pope on a great many things and let get one thing crystal clear: I AM NOT CATHOLIC.

            Two, the Pope never said Christian and Muslims worship the same God. What he said was they “profess” to worship the same God because they trace their claim back to Abraham. He, in his folly, was trying to find a way to dialogue with the Muslims by finding a common ground. It is backfiring on him.

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    Nicely done, doesn’t stray. A good pass-along(er). Have been looking for one.

  • racarrera

    No. This role was defined 1700 years ago by Council and by the words of the Angel who greeter her. We don’t need cheap innovations from those who chose to leave the Church Christ founded.

  • racarrera

    God’s Human form does. Read up on the Ecumenical Councils rather than try to innovate and change Christian teaching.

  • racarrera

    They do reject honoring her to their detriment. When an Angel of the Lord is telling someone, “Hail, Full of Grace,” this isn’t some common person he’s talking to.

  • racarrera

    They are, but the problem is that scholars of ancient Hebrew couldn’t pronounce it correctly anyway because there were no diacritical marks to aid in pronunciantion. What is used today by modern Jews is Tiberian Hebrew script, with diacritics which they assume are correct. It’s, in fact, a retranslation from Greek and Aramaic.

  • You say that Jesus is being God correctly yet you have issue with Mary being given the title, Mother of God? I think you badly misunderstand the intent.

    The whole point is to say that Mary is the Mother of Christ yet is the Mother of God.

    • racarrera
      • I see what Nestorius was trying to do, and he made a huge blunder. He was trying to understand, like I once did, how Christ could be the perfect Lamb of God, and I think this is because the Church Fathers meant well, yet they miss the legal angle that I mentioned earlier.

        Once I saw what the Law said about the husband questioning his wife’s virginity, that cleared up a whole lot of thing. And I had the chance to read Protoevangelium of James some more, and found the passage where Joseph was worried to death about Mary’s sudden pregnancy, and that confirmed what I was thinking.

        Joseph was faced with an impossible task of disproving Mary’s virginity being broken because how in the world can he explain her pregnancy with her virginity intact? And by bringing her to the elders, he is shaming her and bring a bad reputation on her. The penalty for losing the case was fines and not being permitted to divorce her all the day of his life. So, God intervened by having Gabriel repeat the message he shared to Mary regarding Christ.

        • racarrera

          This is why people NEED to read Christian history and not rely on reading on a surface level. This is how all these heresies start.

      • I see what Nestorius was trying to do, and he made a huge blunder. He was trying to understand, like I once did, how Christ could be the perfect Lamb of God, and I think this is because the Church Fathers meant well, yet they miss the legal angle that I mentioned earlier.

        Once I saw what the Law said about the husband questioning his wife’s virginity, that cleared up a whole lot of thing. And I had the chance to read Protoevangelium of James some more, and found the passage where Joseph was worried to death about Mary’s sudden pregnancy, and that confirmed what I was thinking.

        Joseph was faced with an impossible task of disproving Mary’s virginity being broken because how in the world can he explain her pregnancy with her virginity intact? And by bringing her to the elders, he is shaming her and bring a bad reputation on her. The penalty for losing the case was fines and not being permitted to divorce her all the day of his life. So, God intervened by having Gabriel repeat the message he shared to Mary regarding Christ.

  • From one Protestant to another, let me ask you a simple question.

    Do you ask your family member, friend, or your pastor to pray for you?

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    Was Mary just a tool, something of convenience?

    The title Mother of God (in Greek, Theotokos) was confirmed by the whole Body Of Christ as a special counsel in Ephesus about 431 a.d. Should read the story of it, and the theological crisis that led to it.. Powerful trinitarian and christological heresies were afoot and needed confronting. What was being denied was the very nature and person of Jesus Christ, as being fully God and fully man: in union in His one person without confusion. Without that confession there is no salvation.

    The Council of Ephesus chose to express that truith about Christ (and our salvation) by calling Mary “Theotokos”,truly the mother of of Jesus Christ who in His person perfectly uniting (without confusion or diminishment) full and perfect humanity & full and perfect divinity.

    Mary is mother of Jesus whose full and perfect humanity was united with the unbegotten Son of God. At Ephesus no one even suggested (let loose a single hint) that Mary was mother of God as He is in himself, of his essence (the Godhead Three in One, or the Second Person as the Eternal Son of the Eternal Father). Protestants assume, erronously, that the title other of God (Theotokos) implies that. It does not.

    A SIDE NOTE: It may help to approach this issue (in short, Mary herself, as the Orthodox do (from the Orthodox tradition). Mary as the Mother of God (Theotokos) is the only “official” title or dogma the Orthodox “officially” recognize. Their approach to Mary is simpler, less “uncluttered”. (Catholics reading this, please do not take offense.) My wife and I were Orthodox for many years before we entered the Roman Church; we came to adore and love her there. Giving ourselves over to the less “cluttered” Orthodox understanding of Mary (Mother of our Lord) helped in making the switch from evangelicalism.

    A marvelous freedom is uncovered in coming to adore and love the Mother of our Lord – whose “yes” God the Father waited upon. She is truly the Mother of our Salvation, for that Redemption comes to us in the person she bore. .

  • When Jesus said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” it never took away the fact that Mary was blessed for doing the will of God, that is bearing Christ and rising Him. She was afforded a honor that no women in the history of the world have ever had, being the Mother of the Savior of the World.


    Okay. It seems you forgot the clearest verse in Luke 1:43: “And whence is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth had no other Lord but Jehovah/Yahweh. That being the case, is Jesus Christ Yahweh/Jehovah? If you accept that, then you also should not have had a problem with Apostolic Christians calling Mary, “Mother of God”. You are just like the doltish student in the Bruce Lee movie “Enter the Dragon” that has focused on the finger rather than where the finger is pointing. From an Eastern perspective, why not see the object through the eye of the finger itself? So too should you approach this matter. When we state the Virgin Mary is the “Mother of God”, we glorify Christ as God, as Yahweh/Jehovah. We see that as part of the plan of salvation, Mary willingly participated in it and accepted being the chosen vessel for the bearing of God in the flesh for the defeat of Satan and for the salvation of mankind as well as the means of redeeming the house of Israel, whom the Messiah is sent to first. Thank you and God bless.

    • racarrera

      Wisdom. Let us attend.

  • HeatherMaeC

    I believe she was the mother of God, but I just don’t see how it’s biblical to pray to her and to worship her. We don’t pray to and worship Abraham, David, Matthew, Mark…ect. Maybe I am wrong and it is in the bible to do so, but I have never come across it.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Heather – we don’t worship her – further, when we ‘pray’ to the saints, it is asking them to intercede for us since we know the saints are reigning with Jesus, Rev 5:8, and their prayers are answered.

      • HeatherMaeC

        Do you have any more scriptures (not being snarky just curious) I don’t think the prayers in a Rev 5:8 our about our prayers.

        • Стефан Евгений

          Here, Heather this may help. 2nd Maccabees 12 v40.

          42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

          43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

          44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

          45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

          46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.


        • Julie LaBrecque

          Tell us then whose prayers they are offering up.

      • Стефан Евгений

        Julie,dear. I know we have not seen eye to eye, so this is my gift to you. I came across it and thought of you.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          That is so sweet of you!. I know that someday the schism will heal – Vladimir Soloviev forewarned, in 1182, the tyranny that later happened to Russia – and he wanted the Russian Church to return. He also foresaw that the 20th century would be ‘the epoch of great wars, civil strife, and revolutions.” I know the end of the schism will happen – it has to – to fight the anti-Christ and his minions. Blessed Christmas to you!

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            I too pray for the schism to end, it hurts us more than it seeks to serve in the end, as the ONLY Church that Christ the Lord created, we cannot remain separate for long, I want us to breathe in unison again too. Two lungs breathing in one body!

          • Стефан Евгений

            Julie, what do you think of elder Cleopa? http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/88363.htm

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Love it !

          • Стефан Евгений

            I, knew you would.

        • Grandmere

          Such a precious song.

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        The problem here is the word “pray”. Protestants, mainly American Protestants and then this was exported as far as it could go, seek to use the word pray as in worship. When clearly the word “pray” means to ask. In court, we would in the old days use terms like “pray tell”….I pray the court to grant…as in I ask you to inform me or I ask the court to grant, or prithee the contraction of “I pray thee”, which means I ask you when confronting your adversarial counsel.

        • Стефан Евгений

          That is basic,The King’s English.

        • Grandmere

          I see you are familiar with the QB.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            I was a Barrister before I moved to the US after my service in the military. So yes the QBD and the House of Lords are very to me.

        • I was also taught that to pray is to submit a petition to God, would this be similar to Catholic’s teachings? Just curious.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            The very word petition means to ask. You write a petition to higher authorities pleading your case, or asking for something. So yes, pray is to ask.

          • Thought so. Thanks!

      • Tom_mcewen

        The difficulty is the dead. Christ says, God is the God of the living, not the dead. To non Catholics and Orthodox Mary is dead. God lives in 16th century science, Tuesday follows Monday in Heaven.Time is a railroad and for some the station for the living is in the future, far down the track

        • Rapheal Sebastian

          The moment they realize that God is indeed Almighty and He does not fit in a box they manufactured and is not bound by space and time, they will then see everything as the Church intended when she canonized the books of the bible and as she has taught for 2000 years, until then, scriptural gymnastics, bad translations using English of all languages and cherry picking is all we will see.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Just look at what mart1963 wrote. that must be some strong shyte he is smoking.LOL

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            In internet parlance, I am going to say..ikr???? Bro, that dude is definitely on something…taking so much time to write a bunch of nothing..is a sure sign of some strong shyte abuse.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Bro. by some of the strange comments they have to be kookoo for cocoa puffs. the’r brain must be fried.

      • mspip

        interesting. food for thought from one who was raised protestant tho no longer in church

  • RodK1975

    Thank you, Gabriel!

  • Стефан Евгений

    I would like at this to wish all my brothers and sisters a a very blessed Christmas tide.

    Christ is born, Let us Glorify Him


    • RodK1975

      MERRY CHRISTMAS STEVE!!!… On Thursday.. lol.. I’ll probably tell you again too.. :-))

      • Стефан Евгений

        We are on Byzantine time, we start the day at sundown,

        • RodK1975

          Ah, good to know, thanks Steve!

    • racarrera


    • Rapheal Sebastian

      Blessed Christmastide to you and yours, my brother.

    • Grandmere

      I love it. Merry Christmas to you and your family, you little Ruskie! XO

  • AnthonyM

    Good article Thomas. It is so clear the way you laid out using basic logic.

  • Стефан Евгений

  • Seraphim2478

    Spaceba brat!! Blessed Nativity to you!!!

    • Стефан Евгений
      • Seraphim2478

        This is something that people who don’t fast, will never understand!! St. Seraphim said to “never trust someone who doesen’t fast”. Very wise. Blessed feast day to you Brat!!!

        • Стефан Евгений

          Tired of potatoes and prunes. LOL

          • Seraphim2478

            I usually rely on my beans, fish when permissible pasta, I am known for being the “bean king”…lol. ;)))

    • Стефан Евгений

      this laptop is really buggered.

  • mspip

    no, many years in protestant church but always was taught that she was a virgin who was selected to gave birth to the Savior Jesus. however in kjv Bible there are two places or so that indicate she had other children. some don’t think so, i don’t know.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      They make the great mistake of thinking ‘brothers’ means uterine brothers – this is not the case in the cultures of the Middle East, esp the Jews – Abraham calls Lot his brother- but we know that Lot was his nephew. Hebrew and Aramaic had no word for cousin.

      • racarrera

        Neither did English until the Norman Invasion and it’s linguistic aftermath.

      • ChiRho

        One more highly important example that many people have absolutely no knowledge of.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          That is the result of reading texts without knowledge that they were written by Middle Eastern people for Middle Eastern ears.

          • ChiRho

            And language history and translation knowledge. It just isnt something you pick up on by yourself. There are good reasons for structure and teaching guidelines/rules.

    • Grandmere

      A careful study tells who the mother of these kinsmen was. Her name was Mary also. Mary was such a common name. It was not unusual for a family to have more than one daughter named Mary.

      • mspip

        hmm. mary is still a common name. named my daughter that. this makes sense, thank you. people still name their children after relatives. my children had two cousins named carol, one was called big carol and the other one little carol….

      • Exactly right.

        That’s why Mary is called the Virgin Mary to set her apart from all the other Mary mentioned in the Gospels.

  • Стефан Евгений

    Karl. ask yoursef, what came first the bible or the Church.

    Read this, then you may understand, NO Christian thought the way you do for the first 1500 years of the Church.


  • Julie LaBrecque

    How little you know – explain Psalm 132:8

    • Jimi Belton

      Julia L. you sure can come up with the most outlandish and twisted use of some obscure verse….you are so quick to use nasty words in your zeal to promote the false doctrine of Mary Worship…

      • Jimi,

        Have you become lazy? She asked you to explain Psalm 132:8. Have you even looked it up?

        “Arise, LORD, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.”

        Go ahead, interpret since you say you have the “Holy Spirit”.

        • WhiteHorse

          Walid, I am no Bible scholar, but here is my interpretation of Psalm 132.”Arise, LORD, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.” People are crying to the Lord Sabbath who is GOD also known as JESUS CHRIST to return to earth on the last day, destroying satan and all evil people, ant then to rest with us for eternity. Currently, Christians are working harshly to defend our faith, be missionaries and ambassadors for the Word of God and Christ’s truth in a God-forsaken world completely engulfed in evil and immortality and lies and destruction – our risks and stakes are high even unto death and with risk of losing our salvation if we succumb to temptation or inability to withstand the torture and turn against our belief in Christ. The arc symbolizes safety or haven (Noah’s arc) or the arc of the covenant in the temple, a safety vessel. There is no other safety vessel that can carry us through tribulation, famine, floods and wars against the flesh, principalities of the air and ruthless world leaders, religious or political other than Lord Jesus Christ himself. All Scripture needs to be interpreted in context and in juxtaposition to historical background or content too, to some extent. I appreciate any comments.

          • Did you have to send four comments with the same thing?

            Okay, great, everyone with a private interpretation. For two thousand years the “Ark” was interpreted as Mary. Now you come along and tell us its allegory of some sort. Are you better than all the Church Fathers who already interpreted this? Had you spent some effort and looking up what the early church stated about this you would learn a thing or two.

          • Dan Baxley

            Walid, really? Really? Do you sincerely believe “ark” in this verse, in this one place, means Mary? So the strength of YaHWeH is Mary and not YaHshua. My Bible says that everything, the creation itself is given to YaHshua, not Mary —

            (1Co 1:23-24) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

            YaHshua, our Savior Son of the Living God is our ARK of Salvation, it is He we should seek to find our safety — not Mary.

          • Dan,

            Why argue over Mary here? Without just giving your opinion, please quote the error and please refute:


            But refute over at that section where we discuss Mary in detail.

          • Jimi Belton

            I just like to add that the great ark of Noah was sealed on the inside and outside with Tar, bitumis tar, That is the same word as used for ATONEMENT…..The Ark of the Holy Spirit today is our bodies, SEALED from the OUTSIDE with atonement, same as with the inside…Hope this will help you to go on deeper with your truth….You are correct, btw….

      • WhiteHorse

        Jimi – you throw your pearls before swines when you try to explain anything truthful to Julie LaBrecque. We are wasting our time.

        • Great, now that you threw your swine before pearls, and you realized that you are wasting time, does that mean you are looking at the exit sign? Or are you belaboring more?

          No, there is no horderves today.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Mary is the only literal and historical fulfillment of Rev 12 – Israel AND the Church are secondary fulfillments. Your aren’t thinking clearly, nor are you reading the article. Isaiah 7:14 speaks of a VIRGIN being a SIGN – and Rev 12 reveals a GREAT SIGN – a WOMAN – and Jesus called his mother WOMAN.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    I can only add 2 things: The Church, the one that Christ built, is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and Jesus stated that He would send THEM the Spirit to guide THEM into all truth, John 16:13 – this is only ONE institution that Jesus was speaking of – and it will be here for all times.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Scripture states that He did.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Do you consider that Eve was co-peccator?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Saints intercede for those on earth, Rev 5:8

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Are you a Jehovah Witness ?

    • ChiRho

      Man, you picked up on that fast. +10 points.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Thanks – doesn’t take long for people to fall into heresy by trying to deny that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God.

        • racarrera

          Indeed. I was waiting to see if this one would be honest and cop to being JW. +1 for honesty.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It is amazing how Mary’s role as Mother of God is a litmus test for heresies.

          • racarrera

            Between this and Jesus’ Humanity, these are the keys to spotting rubbish.

        • ChiRho

          You knew the specific one fast though.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Grace is divine power, and power to do good – so someone that is FULL of grace will exuded grace.

  • Bilbo

    Additionally, Eve was created, in sinlessness and perfection, with all her eggs, and females in the womb are formed with all their eggs. Mary’s contribution, the egg, was created by the Jesus in sinlessness through Eve. The seed of a woman.

    Additionally, the “shell” of the egg becomes the placenta, hence blessed is the man child who opens the womb or matrix.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Col 2:9

      • Bilbo

        It’s a wonder how you take something you have been absolutely ignorant of, that has been offered to support Mary doctrine in a whole new way, and somehow turn it against the poster. And now you’ll incorporate it into your own meme and forget altogether who the source of this incredible info was. You’re welcome, Julie L.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Then you deny what scripture clearly teaches – The Ark/Woman is in heaven – Rev 11:19 – Rev 12, clearly she has her entire body, crown on her head, moon at her feet. see Psalm 132:8 – notice, that the Lord AND HIs mighty Ark arise to heaven.

    • Grandmere

      When it comes to Bible study, he is true to his name.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        SNAP for you! You don’t miss a lick!

  • Стефан Евгений

    I take it, that you never bothered to read the above.

  • ace

    Mary is full of grace (Luke 1:26-28) “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

    Jesus is full of grace (John 1:14) ” And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth..”

    Jesus is true God and true man; fully divine and fully human.

    Jesus true God and true man, who by God’s design, was incarnate with Mary’s grace-filled flesh, died on the cross for us, crucified in the flesh received from the Blessed Virgin Mary.

  • Julie

    The woman is both the Church and Mary. Israel does not recognize the 12 stars, the apostles and the Church founded on the apostles.

    • Jimi Belton

      Hello Julie, Try as one may, Mary is not part of Revelations….That verse we are speaking of is identifying the House of Israel and the 12 tribes of Israel…When Jesus gave his earthly mother to John as his mother, that was the last of ”The mother of Yah” that we see in the Bible, and I am beginning to despair at the continuance of promoting Mary as supreme OVER the Trinity God Head …The scriptures is very plain that Mary and Joseph had 4 sons and daughters….This insane worship of Mary has to be very depressing to lost souls and their search for Salvation….The worship of Mary is nothing short of a CULT…..It is equal to worshipping a false god…..and as the RCC has twisted up this ”Idol worship” of Mary, many are confused and will reject all of the Bible…I am saddened, jb

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Jimi – you have a woefully deficient understanding of scripture and of Middle East cultures, esp Jewish. Mary NEVER had any uterine children except Jesus – those ‘brothers’ that you insist on making biological children of Mary belong to a different Mary – the one that had Clopas/Alphaeus as her husband –

        Matt 27:56 “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the
        mother of JAMES and JOSEPH, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”

        Mark 15:40 “There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the MOTHER of the younger JAMES and of JOSES, and SALOME.”

        John 19:25 “Standing by the cross were His mother and his
        mother’s sister, Mary the WIFE of Clopas, and Mary of Magdela.”

        Matt 10:3, Mark 3:18 “…JAMES the son of Alphaeus…”

        Luke 6:16 “…James the SON OF ALPHAEUS…..
        Giving proper honor and praise to someone is NOT worship – get your head out of the sand.

        • Jimi Belton

          JL, dearest lady I went to 1 Kings ch.2 and read and researched your incorrect usage of the scriptures….I am NOT woefully deficient in understanding the Word of My Father in Heaven…If you are OPEN for truth this very verse and chapter will put to rest the RCC version of this chapter…Julie, G-Ds Word is hidden to them that are LOST….and I must say that I have always known where the RCC erred from Truth, but this subject of attempting to use the Bible to justify your false doctrinal worship of Mary the Mother of Jesus…..And when you clip and snip a verse or two to try and support your FALSE religion….such as we have here…I am going to expound on this entire chapter for you, and ask you to be a little kinder in your attacks on me…It may not be possible for you to ‘be kinder’, as it probably is something your carnal nature does not understand.
          This chapter has been used ,[by you], to create a totally false picture of ”The mother of god” notice it is in lower caps, as I cannot bring myself to even think of advancing this false.
          Julie, is this one of your church`s cornerstone teachings?…If it is you better re-think a lot of the doctrine….I think many good intentioned Catholic lay people are being led astray by the Elders, both male and female,…More later Please….Thank You

          • Do you see what Julie is telling you below? Have you accessed Church History?

      • Julie

        You are looking at Scripture without the reality of faith of the Church going back to beginning. You are not accessing all the Church history, and Christ did not pass out bible books.

        I put ‘pass out bible books’ to be explicit in what you are doing…the Word without its believers.

      • Julie

        And….You don’t know anything of the Eastern Orthodox. They don’t have the universal charism but have the apostolic faith.

        When I use universal charism in this context, I mean the office of the seat of Peter, primary apostle.

        Because the Latin Church is universal, we have to ensure that the same faith is transmitted to all peoples and at the same time see the seed of faith take root in the ‘soil’ of the local culture. We have to begin by using what they understand in their culture and building on it to reform it to Christ’s culture.

        So we have many charisms of Mary in how she is expressed and is particularly related to by a specific culture of peoples.

        If you go to the Orthodox, of which American bible fundamentalists don t know much about, you won’t find as many different charisms…Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe…but you will still experience great devotion to the Blessed Mother, Theotokos, Mother of God because Christ is God.

        To say that for 2,000 years we have been in a cult is most abusive, ignorant, anda bigoted. You would think with all the theological scholars, they would have pointed out a long time ago we were into some kind of cult and idolatry.

        You need to take a step back and find out what the Universal Church actually believes, in this context the Latin/Orthodox. Get yourself a Catholic catechism. Look up the liturgy.

        No go back, read the Prologue, and then the whole part on the Profession of Faith and begin to see how we believe in God.

        To refuse, where I come from, is a sin….bearing false witness.

        We are not stupid, We are not lacking in education. We are into no cult. We do not worship idols.

      • Julie

        Sorry….to accuse people of being idolators sounds like the tin hat preacher men of the deep South.

        The RCC twisted?..no it hasn’t.

        It is the sad situation of making Scripture say what you want it to say devoid of salvation history.

        • Jimi Belton

          My dearest Lady, I think we will end this discussion, It will never be solved this side of Heaven…I KNOW that His Holy Spirit in my soul, keeps me firm on the validity of Scripture…And without that Holy Presense inside you we are just a mixed up ‘bag of riddles’…Bless you…..

          • Julie

            The problem is judging by appearances.

            We are members of Christ’s Church and know the intercession of the saints who pray for us in heaven. And the bishops, going back to 200 AD, came to acknowledge through discernment, testimony, and miraculous intervention, the prayers of Mary.

            You go back to ancient times, you will see that the Church always held Mary in high esteem, venerated her as perpetual virgin, Christ her sole mission.

            The Blessed Mother always points to Christ and never to herself. But through her help we came to see her as our Heavenly Mother. I mean, around the time of her first assistance going back to those times.

            A psychiatrist was on EWTN and giving us teaching on diabolic possession, oppression. He said those damaged by Satanic activities take from 2 to 10 years to be completely free. And every single one of them said at the end of their oppression, a most beautiful woman came into the room to them and told them,’It is finished’.

            I can tell you from hospice work how Mary has helped pulled the devil away from snatching a soul, Mary the first recourse and giving them confidence to face God because they had led very sinful lives.

            We do not practice and cannot practice our faith if it is not based on the True God.

          • Julie

            We walk in the Lord in faith when it is mystery…we can only trust in Him.

          • Jimi Belton

            Amen….Julie I KNOW I will be in heaven, and I also know that many precious Orthadox believers will be in heaven with me….I cannot judge a person`s soul, that is for my Lord and His Judgement is Right and Just….I enjoy this site and I thank all the host on [email protected]…Bless you

          • Julie


            We cannot judge by appearances. if we do, then we are not in the truth of the Living God.

            If we could see the Lord right now as He is, we would have no need for faith or for hope. but we would have then as we can have now, is His love within us. An old Jesuit enlightened me on this.

            All of us, no matter how defined our beliefs, still require us to live in the mystery of faith and accept that which we cannot understand or change.

            But it is better to pray for the increase of the gifts of the
            Holy Spirit to increase our faith, our hope, and make us more open to the greater dwelling and mastery by the Lord in the gifts of His Spirit.

            So it is most important to know our limits, accept them with humility and seek communion with the Holy Trinity Who leads us to greater communion with each other through Our Lord Jesus Christ. That is how we do it.

            And Mary’s will is only Christ’s will.

          • You have a serious problem Jimi. And neither Shoebat or any other can resolve. You are steeped into this Messianic movement which you think is the pure faith from the first century. Its not. Hope one day you open your eyes. At times I get angry with you because I care.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “If” they Holy Spirit keeps you firm on the validity of scripture, why did you tell me that you had to research what your pastor/sect said about 1 Kings 2:19? Can you explain why the Holy Spirit is teaching you different things that what He taught for 1500 years before any of your protestant deformers came along?

          • Jimi Belton

            Julie I do refur to Bible commentators, and ministers of Old, same as you seek out RC teachings…The scripture in 1 king 2;19 is abundantly clear to me, and what it was teaching and what YOU was trying to make it say in error…Julie I am DONE with you…please go away….

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You can leave, the door is open – I’m going nowhere – you failed to refute anything.

          • No one told you to “go away”, we respected you and now you’re telling folks to “go away”?

            A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” – Wisdom from the Church Fathers

          • Jimi Belton

            another scheme of the Satan was to accuse the Brethern, it was not important what the subject was, just falsly accuse,,,I think dearest Julie realized that i was not being for real….But Waled that gave you enough fodder to attack me did it not,,,,I say this with a smile on me face, because you have tried this same ”accusing ”tactic a dozen..or so..and the H.S just tips me off to your wiles….sorry

          • Have you been drinking again Jimi? What in the world are you talking about?

          • Jimi Belton

            well old friend Walid, I have missed your babbling on about just about everything…When I said ‘go away’ You and Satan through you ”accused”me of something that simply was not so…Just know and beware of the guiles of Luficer

          • I don’t understand why you provide an instruction to beware of the guiles of Lucifer when you should give such instruction to yourself?

          • racarrera

            Projection is an amusing thing to see.

          • “I do refur to Bible commentators, and ministers of Old”

            How old? Can you show me one as old between 70AD and 1500 AD? Who? Name one?

          • Jimi Belton

            I should of said TRUE ministers and ancient wrighters

          • Jimi Belton

            Julie I did not mean that in the literal sense….I meant go get a refreshing nap, as I an going to do….;Julie I love you in Jesus

      • Violet Vanderhelm

        True Jimi Belton. The Catholics are misguided from the early Church leaders and it has turned into a tradition: the worship of Mary.

        • Jimi Belton

          Violet, such a beautiful name, I have been a born again Child of the King for 45 years this Aug. The Lord gave me a ministry in Lake Geneva Wisc. back in ’71’ and most of my ministry was to young RC youth…Late teens and 20s…So I do have a great love for a Catholic..’One that does become a BA Christian….many of these Converts were ‘saved’ and baptized by submersion, there in Lake Geneva…I never attacked their RCC, other than simply to TEACH THE BIBLE….There is no more need of additional ”helps” to encourage our Father in Heaven to hear our prayers, such as , praying for some priest to transmit our prayers on to G-d….No need for The Blessed mother of the Baby Jesus to be called upon to transmit our prayers on to her Son, Jesus, and all the Saints, all the priest, all the BONES of some DEAD person….I despair of even talking about this -R-O-T-that the false teachers mix into the batch….AND the two is like oil and water….They cannot be combined….

        • Now you want to attack the early Church? Good grief. Whats left.

      • Why aren’t you arguing with gataheart below. He says “Raphael, did Jesus here claim to be God?” He denies the deity of Christ. Yet here you are arguing over Mary.

  • Julie

    Do you believe Christ is God?

    • mspip

      He was God when walking on the earth and still is.

      • Julie

        The Man God. People find it easier to believe in Christ as God but have a very hard time understanding Him as True Man.

  • Julie

    What church do you belong to? I never see people reveal what church they belong to while negating Mary and the Roman Catholic Church, and also don’t seem to be aware of much of the Eastern Orthodox.

    Just asking.

    • Jimi Belton

      Julie I am non-denomination….I was Saved in a small Baptist Church in No. Ill. in 1971…..I was in a bad way . Running to and fro in sin….until My lord and Savior saved me from my sins…..Over a short period of time me and the preacher had serious differences, and he was jealious of the street ministry that G-d had given to me, and the souls that was coming to Salvation, we had to part our ways, I am now just a Christian, Saved by His Grace, and get his Word from many sources…Thanks J.
      Ps, I am an Evang. Prot. Christian

      • Julie

        Thanks for ID. I am a Catholic and we find our righteousness in the Lord and we cooperate with the grace He bestows on us every moment of the day to seek His will in all things. Ours is a walk in conversion and we follow Scripture, in that Our Lord admonished us, those who endure to the end will be saved…in the Cross, renouncing one’s self daily, picking up the cross….as each day has enough of its own problems.

        God bless.

  • nagra bagra

    I was not raised in church, but i did receive a bible as a gift from a person living nearby at the time. I, out if curiosity began to read it…i was about 10 at the time, and i can still remember my first impressions after reading about Mary….admiration…if God chose her, then i wanted to be like her. LOL!! Of course i had no teaching or knowledge of how to get there….and i wouldn’t for many years later,and not before, some involvement in demonic activities, that lead to some strange super natural occurrences that led to an amazing delivery from ‘something’ demonic making me unwell!!! But that’s another story. Yes, Mary is amazing!! And a good mother who endured suffering. Who would have loved Jesus more than she besides God? And yet endured watching her innocent boy suffer horrifically at the hands of wicked men. I cannot grasp it.

  • Jimi Belton

    Yes it is. and I do agree with you….This praying to Mary asking her to “ASK” her son to intervene is so totally un-scriptual….Jesus told us how to pray to get results, never did Jesus refur to Mary to ‘aid’ Him in His decision….John 14; v. 13,14, And whatever you ask in my name I will do it……That the Father may be Glorified in the Son…..oops there was no mention of Mary, nor of the hundreds of ”saints”
    ……….Luke;11;v.2…When you pray say, Our Father who are in heaven…..This teaches us WHO to pray to….
    Hallowed be your name…..These couple of verses are not to be used in rote, or some creed, Jesus is teaching us how to be effective in Praying…
    Hallowed be your name…..We are here taught here to Praise….Hallowed, Holy, Sacred, Blessed, Precious, Wonderful, Jesus, Our Father in Heaven…We need to break down this verse[s] and allow the Holy Spirit to show us HOW to pray….First we acknowledge Our Father, second we worship our God, through Praise, in his Hallowed Being…..He is worthy….
    ….Your Kingdom come…..That is mine and the groaning of so many through the centuries…..Thy Kingdom Come…..Hurry Lord Jesus and save us from this evil here on earth….
    …..Your will be done in heaven as in the earth……This is a continuance of this prayer….May Your will be done here and in heaven at the same time…..
    ….Give us our daily bread day by day, as needed….This is just a reminder to our Father to please provide our daily Necessiaries, and food…..
    …….And forgive us our sins as we forgive those that have sinned against us…..This is also a most effective KEY to getting answers from our Father in Heaven…..FORGIVENESS of others……sometimes not so easy….but we can receive that GRACE to forgive if we ask for it….
    …..and lead us not into temptations, but deliver us from evil…..If each and every one that names the Name of Jesus, and the Trinity, would study these points of HOW to be an effective Pray[er], these are the absolute KEY to a full life of WORSHIP of our Father in Heaven….May every thing that has the breath of LIFE in them, shout His Praises and Worship the only One that is Worthy…..Bless you my most Holy G-d Head…j

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Guess you forget about the Wedding at Cana – my, my – plus you don’t know about the Davidic Kingdom – the Queen Mother intercedes, 1 KIngs 2:19.

      • Jimi Belton

        julie your use of the OT chapters in 1 king 2;19 is totally out of kilter….I resent you trying to force the bible to support your flawed religion….Have you read that the person that the Mother of god, or Queen of Heaven, or in this the Mum of the King…..asked her SON to give a present to the First Son a Concubine of the late Kind David, Ab`isag, to the person that was of the opinion that HE was supposed to replace Solomon, as King…well as a result of request, and it was full of evil intentions on Adoni`jahs , Solomon`s half Bro.well also tell your audience that cost him his life, THAT VERY DAY….also, for long with is pal Joab a veryclose associate, JOAB, also had to die that very day….All because ”The Mother Of G-d” asked a request of the KING….Many people will not look up your casual toss out of scripture, but some will…..Dear Julie La. You are error, and G-d can deliver you if you ask,

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Jimi- you are quite in error – if Solomon would have been ‘dethroned’, SO WOULD BATHSHEBA – if you really knew the OT, you would know this – perhaps you miss the oracles such as “Say to the King AND to the Queen Mother,: come down from YOUR THRONE; from YOUR HEADS fall your magnificent CROWNS.” Jeremiah 13:18. You also err in missing that the Mother of the King is always mentioned WITH the King: 1 Kings 14:21, 1 Kings 15:2, 1 Kings 15:10, 1 Kings 22:42, 2 Kings 8:26, 2 Kings 12:2, 2 Kings 14:2, 2 Chronicles 26:3, 2 Chronicles 27:1, 2 Kings 16:1-2, 2 Chronicles 29:1, 2 Kings 21:1,.2 Kings 21:19, 22 Kings 22:1, 2 Kings 23:31, 2 Kings 23:36, 2 Kings 24;8, 2 Kings 24:18 – now note how Matt retains this pattern: Matt 2:11, Matt 2:13, Matt 2:14, Matt 2:20, Matt 2:21, So much for ‘casual toss out’ of scripture. God can deliver you Jimi – just ask.

          • Jimi Belton

            I have never seen anyone weasle out of a corner like I have just seen from You, Dear Julie….

  • Jimi Belton

    We Prot`s. do fully embrace the Virgin birth of Jesus, The Bible forbids us to go further and turn ANY human into a form of worship….Christ ONLY is worthy of Worship…..Be careful about mixing yeast into the dough….

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Care to tell us how YOU PROTS fully embrace ‘calling’Mary blessed – and just how do you guys do this? You ought to be careful, because in the OT, God claims that HE will be the source of her being praised in ALL generations.

  • Tom_mcewen

    No God did not say Mary was favored, the greek is quite clear She is full of grace an act completed in the past and continuing in go the future. I hate the translators who translate the plain Greek meaning to high favored. Paul was quoting a psalm, Did Jesus sin, he is part of all, did Enoch sin, he was taken to heaven and nothing unclean is allowed on heaven
    And last Jesus was talking of his mother with out the comma which was added to change the understanding.

    • Стефан Евгений

      Tom. you are talking to a stump. just see the conversation with Colin, a never ending circle.

      • Tom_mcewen

        I know and there is an endless supply of those who use ignorance and false witness.

        • Стефан Евгений

          And twisty twisty! LOL

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You have blinders on – even in the OT, the Jews were to bring in the gentiles – esp in the Davidic Kingdom – how do you miss this? Jesus took the kingdom from the Jews and gave it to a NATION producing its fruit – you must have missed this. You need to do a study of the Davidic Kingdom so that you can understand what Jesus did, for it is the model of ‘The Church’ is – The Queen Mother is highly integral to the Davidic Kingdom – the ‘Sons of David’, those that were the Kings of the Kingdom, sat their mother to the right of their thrones, and the Queen Mother wore a crown, and interceded for the King’s subjects. – just as Rev 12 portrays, see 1 Kings 2:19, Jeremiah 13:18-20

    • Jimi Belton

      JulieLa….I studied 1 king 2;19 and read the entire chapter again and again, and studied one of the greatest of Christian Commentators, M. Henry….I wonder what you would say to this; The King`s Mother, Bath-sheba went before her son and asked for a petition for someone other than herself, such as mothers sometimes, and she had King Solomon to swear that he would honor her petition, well he vowed to honor her request, and she asked for the hand of Ab`ishag, Davids Concubine, to be given to his half brother, Adoni`jah,…seems non threatening, rtight….wrong, it had the potential of great disaster, and after hearing all the request and being entrapped to agree to ”honor his mother” he immediately saw the danger of his older half
      brother demanding the throne, in some future scheme involving the ”mother of the KING” or as Julie La. would have us to believe the future mother of G-d….well what happened then??
      The KING saw how dangerous it was to him and THE KINGDOM OF GOD, that he ”THAT very day, ordered the death of his half brother, Adoni`jah, see verse 21, 22and especially verse 23, to see such FOLLY in allowing Mommy to petition something as profound as this…He renigned on his promise to Mommy dearest and had his half Brother SLAIN that very day, and Joab, and removed the priest from his robes, and de priested him, but allowed him to keep his life, because some past good the [former] priest had dome…

      Julie La. you better be careful on how you manipulate the scriptures to suit your own religion of MOTHER OF G-d worship….

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Why did Jesus honor the Queen Mothers request to provide wine? Your theory just got blown to smithereens.

        • Jimi Belton

          No it has not been blown away…We are trying to discuss 1 king 2; v. 19…and dear Julie L. I really feel sorry for you…You stammer around like a Polly, and simply will not answer the Q. that is asked of you….I love you anyway, I am just saying these comments to hope and wish that you would be more careful about calling fellow Believers, SICK PERVERTS…..That I am NOT…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You are trying to refute the fact the Mary intercedes – I just proved she interceded – you are so blinded by your cults teaching that you FAIL to realize that the greatest intercession ever done on earth by mere creature was by Mary – HER FIAT.

      • This type of interpretation you do would switch Jezebel with Rachel, Herod with John the Baptist, one Morning star (Jesus) with an evil morning star (Antichrist) …. utter nonsense.

        • Jimi Belton

          There is no utter nonsense in this statement, when you refuse to adknowledge truth, you and legions like you will resort th name calling, twisting scriptures, and always accuse the people of Jehovah God of some wrongdoing,,,,Walid you better find you a place of repair, For God is our Place of repair,,,

        • Jimi Belton

          yes utter nonsense on your part….Why does the holy scriptures have to go through such a bruising to fit your total False …I did not switch anyone, I just stated pure scripture….One good thing I have learned not to cower under a false teaching or in this case, a falsehood being pushed out into the dialog to cover and protect the utter sickness of a few

  • Стефан Евгений

    Did not even bother to read the links I provided.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Intercession is all throughout the New Testament – you need to explain why Paul sentenced a sinner to punishment, then after the period of punishment was sufficient, Paul then declared him forgiven.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Tim 3:15) – guess you missed that one – plus your forefathers removed 7 books that were inspired by God.

  • Lenn
  • ChiRho

    I’m not RC but you have just turned the Scriptures into a huge pretzel.
    Christianity has been around for almost two thousand years. You would do better to look back to those who were there in the early times, who knew the disciples, and the disciple’s disciples, etc for proper explanations of the Scriptures and not someone who has just recently “decoded” the Bible seperately from all of Christian history.

    • Grandmere

      This is the problem with private interpretation of the scriptures.

      • ChiRho

        Yeah, strange thing is, someone down the page posted a picture with that verse while arguing for his own interpretation.
        I honestly cant say that I dont naturally have my own ideas occur when reading and thinking about scripture, but being open to hearing the Traditional teachings of the ancient Church has given me more understanding than I ever couldve figured out in my lifetime.

      • Jimi Belton

        Yes this can be a big problem, inturrupting the scriptures to suit oneself, just look what a disaster the popes of Rome has done for Christinity

        • And what have you done for Christianity in comparison to lets say Pope Pius XII? Please, zip it before I unleash the dozen or so Popes who fought Islam better than anything you have ever done in your lousy comments. Study before you open you trap Jimi. The tongue is your rudder and it directs you to murky waters.

          • Jimi Belton

            and the false is still carried tightly embraced on the chest , to throw out a red herron…I am aware to much of what these ancient popes had to sell

  • DANTEontheLake

    Soweto Gospel Choir – Ave Maria
    Isaiah 52:7 KJV
    How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

    • ace

      Beautiful! Thanks for posting!

      • DANTEontheLake

        Revelation 5:9 KJV
        9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

        • DANTEontheLake

          • DANTEontheLake

  • Whoa.

    You committed several errors.

    1) Jesus has always co-exist with God before coming in the flesh. It’s why He has the title, Immanuel, meaning God-with-us. He was/is God in the flesh.

    2) Because Jesus is God, Mary was chosen to bear Him so He could be born in the flesh.

    3) The Holy Spirt, also co-existing with God, overshadowed Mary and she bore Jesus.

    The Trinity was at work.

    Mary was never God’s Mother yet she bore Christ who is God. So her title is Mother of God to refer to Christ.

    • racarrera

      Ask this one what his denomination is.

      • Has to be one of the offshoots from the Campbell Movement.

        • racarrera

          I’d think so as well.

        • Tom_mcewen

          Is that Soup? A little of this and bit of that and we have theology of heretics.

      • RodK1975

        This is a huge problem that I see and it happens on both extremes… Trying to define everything down to the atomic level… There are some things that should be well defined and there are just some things that cannot be broken down into exact and stringent doctrine. Like the Trinity, I understand it, you understand it, because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to us in a way that words cannot define. You cannot break down an explanation of the Eternal God which exists outside the boundaries and limits of matter and space-time, which is why non-Trinitarians can’t understand or accept the Trinity because at a certain level it cannot be broken down to the nth degree and learned, it has to be revealed and if the Holy Spirit is not present, it can’t be revealed. Which is one of the things I love about the Orthodox Church, there are times when the Orthodox will just say “THIS IS A MYSTERY” and leave it at that, because trying to break down the infinite into finite terms can lead to kinds of ‘inventive’ doctrine and heresies…

        • racarrera

          Agreed, strongly.

          • RodK1975

            What he said sounds classical gnosticism. “Jesus is spirit” and “temporary body”… Pardon me, but Christ rose in the Flesh… this guy treading on dangerous ground whether he realizes it or not.

          • racarrera

            He’s delusional enough to think that by blathering two ‘Hebrew’ words and making threats, people will take his foolish self seriously. These people literally make it up as they go along.

  • Sometime? So you are having those you ask to pray for you in an intercessory role.

    Recall from Jesus’ words when He said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and in saying that, He made it crystal clear God is the God of the living, not the dead. Mary, Peter, Paul, and so forth are ALIVE. They are more alive than we are right now. They are close to God’s throne and they pray along with us to the Father so that Jesus would be glorified so the Father would be glorified through the Son.

    Recall at Mount of Transfiguration how when Jesus was transfigured into His glorified state, Elijah and Moses appeared before His three inner circle, and they spoke, and the disciples heard their voices. Elijah and Moses are alive!

    As Paul wrote, to be absent in the body is to be with the Lord.

  • racarrera

    No it doesn’t. You’re mixing a Babylonian concept with a Christian one. Try actually learning from the Church, rather than some yob who doesn’t understand basic history.

  • waffle_anna

    “She is earthly mother of James and other sons and daughters of Joseph.”

    Except that is a different Mary. Jesus’ mother is always referred to as MARYAM in the Hebrew. The “Mary” who is the mother of the sons and daughters is referred to as MARI’A.

    To deny Mary’s perpetual virginity is serious heresy. She has been OVERSHADOWED by the Holy Spirit, meaning NO MAN, not even her own husband, can touch her.
    This “overshadowing” only happened one other time in Biblical history, namely the Ark of the Covenant.

    • Grandmere

      Preach it, sister.

  • waffle_anna

    You realize what “kecharitomene” means, right? “Full of grace in past, present and future”. Grace is the opposite of sin. So to be “full of grace”, one mustn’t have one iota of sin inside. Gabriel was telling us that Mary, being full of grace, is actually sinless, that she has been preserved from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve.
    And that is why she has been immediately assumed into Heaven after her death.

  • Grandmere

    I actually feel sorry for you.

  • Grandmere

    Jesus is still in that body right this very minute. He ascended BODILY into heaven.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Can you believe the stench these people believe and promote? Is this guy a full-blown Gnostic?

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        Gnostic blasphemy too!

  • Grandmere

    Why did Jesus give his mother into the care of John if he had brothers and sisters? That would have gone against all Jewish teaching and tradition.

  • I was agreeing with you until the last line, “God the spirit.”


  • Grandmere

    No Mary – No Jesus. God considered Mary necessary to his plan of salvation. Who are you to say she was not?

  • You forget one little fact, a very tiny fact…

    Maccabee happened long, long, long before Christ came.

  • Grandmere

    Make sure you NEVER ask your spouse, your pastor, or a friend to pray for you. You don’t want to commit a grave sin, right?

  • No.

    Thomas never intended for Mary to be a 3rd party. See, that’s part of the problem, rather than listening and researching on how the Orthodox view salvation (it’s a lot like traditional Protestant’s thinking, believe it or not), folks want to jump down the throat of Catholic/Orthodox for what they believe rather.

    Even Mary herself acknowledged Jesus being her savior, and that is a cause to rejoice because she, out of all the women in Israel, was chosen by God to bear Christ, the Savior of the world. She had to know, growing up listening to all the stories and prophecies, that God will send a deliverer, and she could not, in her wildest dream, imagine that God, from time eternal and foreknew, would choose her. Yet, it depended on her free will to accept her calling.

    “Let this be done to me according to the word that was spoken to me,” said Mary, and that little declaration turned into an echo that still reverberate today. “The Word was with God and the Word became flesh.”

    Catholic and Orthodox both say that Mary points back to Christ being the Savior. And I agree with them.

    • Стефан Евгений

      Hodegetria (Odigitria, Directress) Icon of the Mother of God, Our Lady the Ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of God (Theotokos). See she is pointing to Christ, as The Way.

  • ” I think the Elijah/Moses reference is a stretch”

    That is in the Gospels. You are denying the Transfiguration?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You might ponder these verses, then ponder them and ask why would people pray/fast/make offerings for the dead if the righteous dead go straight to heaven – 1 Samuel 31:13, 2 Sam 1:12, 2 Tim 1:16-18, 2 Maccabees 12:39-45; then ponder Micah 7:8-9, Malachi 3:2-4, 1 Cor 3:11-15, Psalm 66:12, next ponder what prison exists that you can get out of by paying back, Matt 5:22-26

    • WhiteHorse

      Julie, You pose a valid question here. I have asked this very question you ask of priests, ministers and never get a definitive answer as they probably don’t know either. One rationale, my opinion, when our loved ones die, we all like to believe they will be with the Lord in Heaven, immediately on judgment day or whatever time frame and perhaps some do not deserve to go to heaven, but we cannot accept that, so we pray to God for mercy and leniency and to accept them into Heaven.

  • Grandmere

    Do you think Jesus was ever disobedient to his mother?

  • Grandmere

    Nowhere does it state that his staying at the temple was an act of disobedience to his parents.

  • racarrera

    You have a very primitive way of looking at the Bible. What’s your denomination, Henk? That will say where you learned what you’re talking about, because it doesn’t comport to Christian thinking over 2,000 years, but does make sense to a fairy tale cult.

    • Стефан Евгений

      I can’t get over him trying to use Greek and fail. The septuagint uses Kyrios for Adonai. Lord.

      • racarrera

        This is where one spots the frauds and silly people, brat.

  • Grandmere

    If he had been disobedient to his parents he would have been guilty of breaking the commandments. Impossible.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Luke 2:51/John 2:3-9; you obviously forgot the commandment to honor your father and your mother – Jesus broke no commandments.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Mary is not above God – she is a creature, not divine.

  • racarrera

    I have bad news for you. There IS. Unless you deny the fact that the home of Christianity, the Middle East, the Balkans and the Anatolian Peninsula, have had Christianity since the beginning, where theological thought was developed.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why do you not read the WHOLE EVENT – “He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was OBEDIENT TO THEM; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.” Luke 2:51

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why did Paul pray for his dead friend Onesiphorus? Do you forget the Peter prayed for the dead and raised the dead to life? What about the bones of Elisha bringing a dead man to life? What your protestant theology has taught you that you don’t have to do anything for the damage your sins have caused – explain why Jesus says we will be sent to a prison that we don’t get out of until we have paid back the last penny?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You’re getting upset because I am upsetting your apple cart.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So Mary is the co-mediatrix.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    1 Cor 5:3-5/ 2Cor 2:6-11. Paul was no protestant pastor, he was a Catholic Priest.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So how do you eat His flesh and drink His blood – He said this was necessary for eternal life – you’ve made yourself your own church – this flies in the face of everything Jesus taught and did.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So the Jewish people are in heaven? The Jewish people are the Ark? You make no sense.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.’ John 17:22. Guess you missed that verse.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You just can’t bring yourself to calling her the Mother of God, can you?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Ask anyone of the Greek speakers here, or look at a REAL Greek dictionary for the meaning of the word “kecharitomene”, which is the word the Gabriel addressed Mary.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    What ignorant pastor taught you that she had other children?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Are you praising the Virgin Mother? If you belong to God, as I will suppose you think you do, then you would be praising her – God claims HIMSELF as the author of her being praised in all generations – but your sects don’t teach much on the OT, so you probably don’t know where this verse is.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Where, pray tell, where all these supposed children while Jesus was dying? Why were there no children for Mary to go live with?

  • Julie LaBrecque


  • Julie LaBrecque

    “Behold YOUR SON.”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The Bible didn’t exist until the 4th Century – and it was the Catholic Church that decided which books went in and which books didn’t go in. Your founders threw out 7 of those books – and NONE of your sects have the same beliefs – which is why there are 40,000 denominations – everyone of you interpreting a Catholic Book.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Do yourself a favor and study the Davidic Kingdom – things might finally make ‘sense’ to you and you won’t have to twist scripture to your own destruction.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Oral tradition came FIRST – which is easily determined by the discrepancies in the Gospels. Can you tell me why you believe that Matthew was the author of the gospel attributed to him?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Was the Centurion’s servant healed on the faith of the Centurion? Was the Sryo-Phoenician’s daughter healed by the mother’s faith?

  • ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” (John 1:1-4).

    Jesus has always exist. He co-exist with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. Any attempt to understand it will fall flat since we are finite and God is infinite.

    The Trinity is a dogmatic doctrine that was defended in the First Nicene Council against the heresies who could not accept that in spite of Jesus own words that the disciples were to baptize in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Subsequent councils have upheld it throughout the age.

    It is of great importance to our salvation because the Trinity is a core doctrine of the Christian Faith. The one sin that will never be forgiven, in this life or the next, is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Insulting Jesus is forgivable, but insults against the Holy Spirit? Nope.

  • Why then are you standing there? Keep your promise and Walk Away.

  • Joe M

    At Christmas, services held in Churches, whether Roman Catholic or Presbytarian, even televised services, always say that Mary was a virgin, and that the child she gave birth to is God with us. There is no dispute about that! This is the truth of Christianity. God is not sexist, he gave Mary an important role.

    Equally, scripture states that before Jesus came to Earth, he existed in Heaven, and He came down into his Creation. He was born as a human, and the human was human, fully human, and this human is Mary’s seed. Now take a breath, God is not born and God is fully God, and this is God who existed prior to everything. God is not born! In Jesus was the amalgamation of God with human, and human with God, 100% human and 100% God.

    So, Mary gave birth to a human, as a human is born, yet God is not born. So, Jesus the man was born but God was not born. Mary was and is the mother of Jesus the human! That he also happens to be God doesn’t make that Mary actually gave birth to God, but it does mean that she served God to enable his entrance into the human person.

    The fact that Mary’s seed will fight against Satan and crush him, l believe it means that Christians, those who’s mother is no longer Eve because they have taken the antidote to the poisonous fruit, and have the Holy Spirit, will with God’s encouragement fight against Satan to free the Earth of Satan’s tyrannical rule, and those who are Mary’s human seed will crush Satan with a little difficulty, but victory will be won. Jesus will be present, as every eye will see him, and know that He is God and in his humanity, he is Mary’s seed.

    I know that l have not committed blasphemy in my post, so refrain from accusations. I have full confidence, not a thread of doubt, that my understanding is correct. I am not taking issue with the writer, or belittling Mary, the mother of the human Jesus. Jesus was a remarkable human, he never sinned ever! God cannot sin, nor did the human Jesus.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    Read the verse in Greek and then it is worth exploring.

  • Julie

    No I wasn’t going anywhere in that direction.

    You should get a catechism, pray to the Lord and stop attacking Catholics and thinking you are so much better than anyone. That is pride.

    • mspip

      you are correct julie

      • Julie

        I don’t understand these people where they think they are so superior in Christ but refuse to find out what we truly believe in.

  • Julie

    Oh…I know where you are going with that one….Yes, Christ obeyed His mother as a Child and do you know when Jewish boys become of age????

    So what.

    Like I said, you are wasting your time. What are you trying to prove? Your righteousness should be in Christ and not wasting time attacking people you cannot even comprehend.

    Guten nacht.

  • Julie

    You haven’t finished reading.

    Christ died for all mankind.

    The Church is based on Christ and the apostles. And the 12 apostles can likewise represent the fulfillment of faith of all people in the Church, reading further in Revelations those surrounding the altar praising Him, those of many tongues and races — obviously not Jewish.

  • Joe M

    It is impossible to have any response from the dead because they are dead. The saints are not dead. However, there is no need to not pray directly to God, who Jesus is! We know!

    We can only enter Heaven through the gate or door who is Jesus. I am not Roman Catholic, but l have never heard of entering heaven through purgatory, but such a thing is not possible! Am l an arrogant person who assumes that l am right or do l really know what l am talking about? I claim that l do know what l am talking about. If l am called delusional, then l am in good company because they said the same about Jesus.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      What is this bit about being saved by fire that Paul speaks of ?

      • Joe M

        I wrote to you but it seems there is no record of it, something went wrong with my internet, but you may get two responses.

        Paul is saying that God tests our deeds as Christians, and if those deeds are righteous then the holy fire will not burn them but if they are not righteous they will be destroyed, but the Christians who are deemed to be believers in Jesus, they themselves will be allowed into heaven through Jesus, his promise. People who don’t believe in Jesus, that he was crucified as a sinless, holy lamb offering to give salvation, then they will not enter heaven.

        Good righteous works stand to the Glory of God. When we go to heaven, we shall become as like the Angels. There are strong Angels, Arch Angels, and there are Angels who are ordinary Angels, though l do not like using that term. There are difference between Angels as there are differences between people. But all Angels are great in the knowledge of God and in worship to him. Our position as Angels in heaven can be attributed to our righteous deeds by God’s measurement, not man’s understanding. Some people who are Christians have given works that are vane, and they got their reward for them on Earth from fellow man, these deeds will not survive the holy fire, nor will sins that were committed by the Christian prior to their becoming a Christian, but the Christian will survive and enter Heaven through Jesus. God’s holy fire burns up everything unworthy, but the Christian himself is worthy and will not be destroyed.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Please explain the 2 different categories mentioned – those with gold, silver, versus those with wood, hay, stubble – and why does it say they are saved by fire, not destroyed by fire? Those destroyed by fire are the damned, not the saved.

          • Joe M

            it is scriptural that there are different vessels, different kinds of vessels, some are gold and silver, some are wood. These vessels are Christians. These vessels are useful, all are useful. However, that which is stubble is destroyed as it is not useful.

            The Holy Fire destroys that which is worthless. The Holy Fire does not destroy that which has value. Thus if we give an example of spirit souls who are evil, they will be destroyed as worthless vessels, their works/deeds and them. The Christian spirit souls will only have their vane works and misdeeds destroyed, but they themselves are valuable vessels who are made of wood, silver, gold, never chaff and stubble, so they will be saved by the Holy Fire for they are immune to the fire, it will not burn them, it saves them. Remember, the flames of God did not burn the bush that Moses saw, and the flames of God alighted on Christians at Penticost, dancing flames came down on the Christians. These flames are Holy Spirit flames and as you know when you are given the Holy Spirit, He saves!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            What you totally gloss over is this – Paul is speaking of judgment day – after we are dead. Protestants say ‘they are saved’, but Paul states that they will be saved by fire.

          • Joe M

            You could be referring to a belief that we as Christians have to face a second death, and we are cast into the fire, and if we are not to suffer eternal damnation then we are unburned and rise up out of it. If however, a spirit soul is evil and has no Saviour Lord then he is left to burn up in the fire, and suffers agony forever.

            I believe that even though a Christian is spared and the fire does not burn him, he would be alarmed and afraid of dropping into such a place, and seeing those who’s bones are blackened and twisted who are burning yet in agony are unable to die. For that reason l don’t believe God will do that to a Christian.

            Scripture gives strong support for an outer darkness, and the gulf between God and those who are in outer darkness. Scripture also gives indication that those who are in the pit look up and see those in heaven, and they are perpetually thirsty and uncomfortable.

            God is a comfort to his children so fear no fire, let God comfort you.

            You will need to explain Julie, what it is you think Paul has said, that being your interpretation of what he said.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So you don’t believe that when wood, hay and stubble are exposed to fire that they burn?

          • Joe M

            Everything exposed to fire will burn. So, l told you stubble and chaff burns and it will burn. Gold and silver melts initially. Wood is useful, Jesus even worked as a carpenter.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Now put all that into what Paul said – he was speaking of people being saved by fire.

          • Joe M

            Do you think that you are going to be saved, by the fire, whatever fire, hellfire, holy fire?

            Jesus talked about some being bound up and put out to darkness, yes, outer darkness. Put everything into what Jesus said.

            Limbo, purgatory, earthbound spirits causing aggravation , who needs to be a soul in purgatory to be annoying? Be at peace Julie. Settle down, you won’t always be in this world, you know.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt (Mt. 18:32-34). Please tell me what your sect calls this ‘prison’ that the lord can deliver us to that we can get out of – by paying back.

          • Joe M

            This is a scripture that tells you of the love and compassion of God and the deliverance of his forgiveness when with contrite heart you beg for forgiveness.

            Why then do you refuse to forgive those who are in debt to yourself says the Lord but you are harsh with the person who owes you, yet you forgot that God was forgiving and merciful to you. So, says God, you will receive a shock because God is going to teach you a lesson, he will turn his face from you for a time until you learn your lesson and treat others kindly and forgiving just as you expect God to treat you.

            Then when you have changed your ways and know better forever, God will decree that you have had a hard lesson and now you understand, and He will forgive you because you have changed and become as fitting of one who is made in the image of God, and knowing that even those who you despised are also made in his image, and you should care about them, your employees, your children and not be hard and harsh.

            You are free to be as generous and kind to all in reference to your understanding of the need to do good deeds but hopefully your heart is willing, and you are not ruled through a threat that you had better do it for salvation, because God wants your desire to have a compassion that comes from love, for this kind of love for your fellow human is love that rewards you in satisfaction as well as pleasing to God.

            It is not good enough to throw the food down on the ground and say ” eat it”, it is not good enough to throw money on the table with a grudging snear to the taker, it is not good enough to cancel a debt with a grudge attached. There has to be love! For if we fear God our Father, then we fear disappointing him, and being ashamed. How pleased would God be with us, if we grudgingly did what appears to be righteous because we fear being punished? Love and compassion is from the heart and we shall find many people who need our love and compassion thus worry less about ticking a box on a good deed.

            The scripture relates to our life on Earth, and our dealings with God and our fellow man. It is not about those who have died in flesh and as they never recognized God, were not lifted up, though they can haunt their habitats until they fade out completely.

          • Jimi Belton

            That is the dross in our lives that hinder us from pure worship of G-d,,,,It will be applied as needed, in every life of The Called and anointed of Gd…And it is by fire of tribulation that we purify ourselves

          • Hazel Waldron

            Their WORKS will be tried by fire. Read John 3; 16-18 He who believes in Him is NOT JUDGED! Clearly our works/deeds will be judged and those not done in the Holy Spirit will be burned up but the person will still be saved – because they are born again and believed on Jesus and had the testimony of their faith in the redemptive power of His blood. It really is very simple when you remove the religious mumbo jumbo of the RCC. Scripture is clear to those who are born again.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you trying to assert that the ‘person’ is not involved in this ‘burning up’ process? Tell me, how do you separate the body from what you have done in your body? Obviously you aren’t born again like you think you are or you might understand what is going on here.

          • Hazel Waldron

            Romans 3; 21-26 5;9, 19, 14-20 8;1-4 9-11 10;9-11 11;6 14;7&8 and 1 Cor 3; 8-15. Yes the person does not experience any burning up. Our works are tried and those done in the flesh are burned up and those done in the Spirit are not but as 1Cor 3;15 states the person is saved.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It also states that he suffers loss – guess you missed that part.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “For we must ALL be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that EVERY ONE may receive the proper things of the body, according as HE hath done, whether it be good or evil” 2 Cor 5:10. How is that you ‘born agains’ omit so much scripture from your theology? Do you HONESTLY believe that you aren’t going to be judged?

          • Jimi Belton

            My sins was judged on the cross…”It is finished”My salvation is Complete in Christ

          • Flame blue

            True. Fear nothing but the Lord.

  • Joe M

    Sometimes scripture has two meanings. For example Israel, its people have gone hungry, were whipped, were mocked, were killed, Satan did that to them. Yet, Israel still exists! Jesus was whipped, and mocked, and he was killed, Satan tried to kill him, but Jesus resurrected and turned what was meant for bad to good!

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    Do you believe that Jesus is God or was a god?

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    I write this reply not to chide you in anyway, but I find it ridiculous that you continue to use English as your starting point. No Christian worth his salt would dare declare that English is the language of the bible and after having known that English is not the language, does nothing to find out or try to learnt how to read God’s word. Is it because that you care not to learn to know the true Word of God in the essence that it was written? Will it lead you to read the Early Church Fathers and teh Desert Fathers? This is what that is holding most Protestants back, pastors would decry, shame and even hurl insults should any of is followers read the ECFs and the DFs. For they will then find God in His true Church.

    In the Septuagint as well as in the NT it all explains clearly why the Protestant arguments fall flat if only they knew the language. Catholics have for centuries now debated against Protestants who insist on using English while the Catholic shakes his head humbly and bows down and prays for his brethren’s conversion and learning.

    By self interpretation without any knowledge of customs, norms and idiosyncrasies of the people of that time you use English the world’s most confusing, inept and inaccurate language to read holy scripture. You only open yourself to self interpretation and tremendous error, thinking that you are moved by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is never wrong, the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic in allowing one thing and disallowing another in two different churches. The Holy Spirit is clear as to what is sin. For example, there is no such thing as adultery is fine with a divorce. This is allowed in Protestantism, no where in scripture does God condone divorce and that is evident in the Holy Spirit leading the men to canonize those verses regarding divorce in the bible. As the same Holy Spirit moved the men to promulgate the Doctrine of the Trinity, The Immaculate Conception and The Assumption of the Blessed Mother. The Holy Spirit is not wrong about Purgatory, that is why in the books that Luther removed Purgatory is found and explained. Ahh…Hosea 4:6 leaps out to me while replying to you, by our own folly we perish for sure.

  • Poor Mary. According to you she will be bussing tables with you in heaven.

  • Willing to die for Jesus

    Please see this, Iggy: http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm

    The Blessed Virgin is our greatest advocate at death. Nobody is assured entry into Heaven, even Christians – those who claim to be followers of Christ.

    Christ Himself said that He would not recognize all those who were His followers:

    “Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?” (Matthew 7:22)

    It is quite sobering, but we are not God and it is only God who is allowed to pass Judgment on His creation. That includes all of His creation, both followers of Christ and non-followers of Christ.

    There will be those who claimed to follow Christ who do not get into Heaven and there will be those who did not follow Christ who will make it into Heaven.

    We cannot place ourselves in the judgment seat of God. That is the height of arrogance and defying God Who is the Judge.

    That is why we must ensure we do works and live a life free of sin and do penance/ repent. We can never know whether we will make it into Heaven. We cannot say we are “saved” until we are in Heaven.

    It was Luther who taught salvation by faith alone and the concept of once saved, always saved is not true to the Christian tradition going back 2,000 years as practised by the Catholics and Orthodox. You will notice in the Middle East, in the birthplace of Christianity, that in the Holy Land,

    Protestantism is not an indigenous concept at all and all those native to the Middle East (the Iraqi, Syrian and Coptic Egyptian Christians) are all Catholics of various rites (not just Latin rite, but Maronite Lebanese, Chaldean Iraqis and Melkite Syrians) as well as Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians.

    Perhaps you may find it worth looking into these Christians traditions, since the Catholics and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have been following Christ and are members of His Church since He ascended into Heaven. Whereas Protestant traditions have only existed since 1517 with the Lutheran Reformation.

    You should also take note that Luther was most devoted to the Blessed Mother and prayed the Rosary until his death and so did the other early Reformers.

    The Blessed Virgin is the Mother of the Church and the Mother of All Christians and She sits on the Throne in Heaven as the Queen Mother and is our greatest advocate at death.

    Again, I truly urge you to have a look at the link ttp://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm since it is a great shame that Christians have abandoned reverence and have forgotten about the importance of Our Blessed Mother who intercedes for us in greatest times of need

    For example, the Blessed Virgin saved Europe from Islamization at the Battles of Lepanto, Malta and Vienna when it seems the Ottomans would have overrun Europe but the Europeans all prayed the Rosary and miraculously the Turks were beaten because of the help of the Blessed Virgin).

    And we are also praying for the Muslims who greatly venerate the Blessed Virgin but unfortunately do not recognize Her Son as the Son of God. But there have been Muslims who have converted to Christ because the Blessed Virgin always points us to Her Son. There was one such woman in my Archdiocese, a Muslim woman who came into the Cathedral dressed head to toe in a burqa who I saw with a friend, who asked spoke to Her and the Muslim woman said the Blessed Virgin came to Her in a dream which compelled Her to go to a Church service. Granted she did not bless herself with the holy water at the holy water fount or genuflect inside the Church (as a Muslim) but the Blessed Virgin drew Her to go to Christ’s Church. I don’t know whether this led her to accept Christ and become a Catholic Christian.

    If you look at the beautiful Orthodox Icons or some statues of Mary, She is with Her infant Son and always points us to Her Son, Our Lord and Savior.

    Everything about the Blessed Virgin is about Christ. All of our devotions to Her is in thanksgiving to Her role as our Greatest Advocate at Death. Which is why when we pray the Rosary, which is entirely scriptural, we pray:

    Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
    Blessed art thou amongst women,
    and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God,
    pray for us sinners,
    now and at the hour of our death.

    Here is former Baptist, now Catholic, Tim Staples who also discusses the Scriptural basis of the Rosary, which is one of our greatest prayer weapons against Satan.

    God bless you in your Christian journey and may Christ Our Redeemer and His Blessed Mother look over and protect you.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    I think yes, if you knew your child was indeed the Lord Incarnate. They all knew that Jesus was indeed fully human and fully God and they have been told that at the Annunciation of the Angel of the Lord, Gabriel when he appeared to the Blessed Mother and then later visited St. Joseph in his hours of torment knowing his betrothed is now with child yet she knew not of man. They, His earthly parents, knew that He had many things to do in His time. After all didn’t St. Elizabeth proclaim that the Mother of her Lord was there to visit her and the child, St. John the Baptist still in his mother’s womb leapt? The Blessed Mother and St. Joseph both knew who the LORD Jesus was and is before and at His birth, Passion, crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    {God always existed. God has no mother. God is spirit. No human can ever be the mother of God,}

    These are the exact arguments muslims also make.

  • Nobody is turning her into a goddess. Get a clue.

  • The subject matter is can we call Mary the “Mother of God” and you bring a different topic. If on writes about a subject, the other quickly brings a different subject addressed in a different article. Yet you find them NOT commenting on the other articles that DO speak of the subject they comment on.

    I find this observation everywhere. It is sort of an interest to thwart what is being said instead of dealing with what is being said.

    • Tom_mcewen

      Here in Prague during the times of the Kings like Karl IV by Royal command, not the church, jewish men had go to church for a one hour per week lesson, the Jews would put wax in their ears and priests understood and accepted this. The play was accepted because both needed each other and each needed the King. I wonder if I would be as well served by putting wax in my ears when listening to Protestantism show what I perceive as ignorance by desire and design. If will make life more restful. Kafka when his father deserted his family, the church opened an apartment for the family and provided money for food and school. Heil Mary full of grace. God’s words not mine.

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        There will be a booming business for wax makers.

  • Grandmere

    The term “woman” was one of ultimate respect. When she tucked him in bed and said, “Goodnight, son. I love you.” Would he not have said, “I love you too, Mother”?

  • RodK1975

    “But — I believe the answer is likely something I learned from
    listening to J. Vernon McGee —- What is a sin for me might not be a
    sin for you….”

    Very interesting point, Iggy… this might be hard to believe, but I was thinking about and contemplating this article last night and had that EXACT thought come to mind… Paul deals with this in chapter 14 of Romans. There are some things that can be a sin for you and not for me… I relegate things like smoking cigarettes to this category. And I think it can be applied here too…

    Kudos to you Iggy! 🙂

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    I read Koine Greek, Latin, arabic and several other European languages, mainly the romanized ones but not the Cyrillic based languages commonly found in Eastern Europe. Many of us here do also read more than one language, especially Greek and my Orthodox brethren share their knowledge when Cyrillic is needed, if you must know.

    Aramaic is the language Jesus spoke, and yes, there is an Aramaic bible too. But the Septuagint as well as the original NT was in Greek. Why simply because it is the most accurate language at that time and it has to follow through in the essence and language in which the Septuagint was written. The Septuagint and the NT make up the Bible, if you don’t already know. You would also do well to go find out what the Didache is. You should not confuse the language Jesus spoke with the Septuagint He used to teach in the Synagogues. If the Septuagint is good enough for Jesus it is most certainly good enough for me but apparently 7 books were not good enough for Luther, so he had them removed.

    Catholic Christians have no need to read the Torah in Hebrew, we have the Septuagint. You are right, atheists and Agnostics use arguments to try refute Christianity, try as they might, they will fail. The assertion is somewhat correct when they say the bible is corrupt, but I disagree with the word corrupt, instead I use “edited” because the Protestant version isn’t complete, Luther in his need to convert the Jews, ascribed to the decision of Jewish council of Jamnia which sought to remove those 7 books because Jews were becoming Catholic Christians and had to stem this tide using the argument that those 7 books were not written in Hebrew and therefore cannot be part of the Jewish scripture. In 1947, however, fragments in Hebrew of Tobit and Sirach were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. In addition, most Scripture scholars believe that 1 Maccabees, Judith, Baruch and parts of Wisdom were also originally written in Hebrew. The early Church did not require all Scripture to be written in Hebrew, and the New Testament books were written in Greek as I have previously stated.

    In the 16th century, Martin Luther adopted the Jewish list, putting the Deuterocanonical books in an appendix. He also put the letter of James, the letter to the Hebrews, the letters of John, and the book of Revelation from the New Testament in an appendix. He did this for doctrinal reasons (for example: 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 supports the doctrine of purgatory, Hebrews supports the existence of the priesthood, and James 2:24 supports the Catholic doctrine on merit). Later Lutherans followed Luther’s Old Testament list and rejected the Deuterocanonical books, but they did not follow his rejection of the New Testament books.

    Finally, in 1546, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional list of the Catholic Church.

    So with this background information now before you, there is only one way to read scripture, the way the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teaches it, any other interpretation that goes against that teaching would be in error. After all, 1 Tim 3:15 clearly lays out that the Church indeed is the foundation and pillar of truth. Only Church can teach us what scripture means since it is the Deposit of the Faith. The Deposit of Faith is the body of saving truth entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and handed on by them to be preserved and proclaimed. Jesus ordered them to teach the nations “everything I have commanded you” and assured them “know that I am with you always, until the end of the world.” (Mt 28:18-20). The metaphor of a “deposit” suggests that this teaching is an inexhaustible treasure, that rewards reflection and study with new insights and deeper penetration into the mystery of the divine economy of salvation [God’s plan for saving mankind]. Although the Church’s understanding of this teaching can and does develop, it can never be augmented in substance. The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes:
    “The apostles entrusted the sacred deposit of the faith [the depositum fidei; see 1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14] contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. ‘By adhering to (this heritage) the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread [the Eucharist] and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.'”

    Both Oral Tradition and Scripture “come from the same divine wellspring.” A shorthand formula for this is:

    Deposit of Faith = Apostolic Tradition (or Sacred Oral Tradition) + Sacred Scriptures

    Apostolic Tradition–Jesus commissioned the Apostles to “go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you” (Mt.28: 19-20). He promised that the Holy Spirit would “instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I have told you” (John 14:26). Just before his ascension into heaven Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation” (Mk 16: 15). He commanded them to do precisely what He himself had done, namely, deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice and granted them, through the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues. He told them, “He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

    It was by this oral Apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which books should be included in the New Testament. Many were already in use in the house churches (Christianity was “underground” for three centuries and much persecuted) St. Augustine endorses the same position when he says: “I should not believe the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church” (Con. epist. Manichaei, fundam., n. 6). As St. Paul urged in his epistle, 2 Thessalonians 2: 15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” The books of the New Testament were written between about 45 A.D. and as late as 100 A.D. but were not put into a defined canon or single collection until the end of the fourth century. Why not? The Holy Spirit protected the oral Tradition or Apostolic Tradition taught by the true Church, which by 100 A.D. was already known as the “Catholic Church.” See the seven letters of Ignatius of Antioch, accepted by both Protestant and Catholic scholars as legitimate. Sacred Tradition has for its subject the Holy Spirit, indwelling the Church as the soul animates the body. The Spirit guides the Church in its interpretation of the Word and in its liturgy.

    I hope this helps.

    • Tom_mcewen

      Bravo, bravo…..

    • Iggy Autry

      Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail, and I’ll give it more than 1 read. My thoughts right now:

      1. I did a little reading about the history of those 7 books.

      It said that they were a translation into Greek (of that day) of the entire Jewish canon – which were in Hebrew – with these 7 books included – which did not end up as part of the Hebrew canon when it was formed sometime after Christ’s time…

      So, the Greek texts were not the original for any of the books.

      My point has been — if someone is going to tell me I’m wrongheaded because I haven’t read my Bible in its original language —- where does such a thought end…?

      I’m assuming the Greek of today is not identical to the Greek of the time of the first translation. So maybe people fluent in today’s Greek might have trouble with that old Greek like the students I try to teach Shakespeare (or when I read Shakespeare myself….)

      So, getting into a Mandatory Language argument opens up a big can of worms that should sweep in a massive amount of believers…Virtually every single believer who is not trained in classical Hebrew – at least for these 7 books – because before they were in Greek – they were originally in Hebrew…

      2. The other thread in the argument is that the Church is the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong – based on how they interpret Scripture and what they know about the traditions beyond the text…

      The Church mandatory (infallible?) authority runs into trouble for me just in my reading of the scripture.

      Twice, Jesus gave us a parable about the future evolution of the Truth that is the basis of the church/community of Christ

      The parable of the leaven and the parable of the mustard seed.

      Now, many have seen in those two a wholly positive interpretation of how the church will grow and prosper and become larger and larger.

      Others have see it differently – That the parables predict that the True Church would expand but then corrupting influences would be introduced (leaven in the one parable – birds in the other).


      This is why I don’t believe a believer should leave his faith up to a man or men inside the church without testing it with their own reading.

      Why do some people only see positive in the parables of leaven and mustard seed…?

      The parables just above them were clearly meant to include the negative — each explained to us by Jesus Himself as representing how the True Word is given out and then ruined by some receivers of it… The parable of the sower and the parable of wheat and tares…

      In the parable of the sower, birds are bad. Why are the birds in the parable just after it suddenly only good? Why is leaven only good when leaven was bad in reference to the Pharisees?

      Doesn’t it seem to make far more sense if the parable of the mustard seed and leaven fit as echos of other two parables Jesus just got through getting out of His mouth – which matches the parallel literary style of Hebrew?

      Why am I approaching heresy if I say I think those who interpreted the those parables as only good – and that they are describing a church that is only going to grow bigger and incorruptible?

      If we look at the actual history of the church – and some of its leaders – doesn’t leaven and birds as negative make more sense too —?

      – This touches on what I wanted to say about bringing Luther into a debate about whether a person like me can rely on his Bible if it doesn’t include the 7 books removed from the other version…

      I’m not basing my faith on what Luther had to say. I’m reading the Bible.

      But, what was going on in Luther’s day? Were there any tares among the church leaders?

      Was there no negative leaven that had creep in as official doctrine?

      Was the church of Luther’s day pure and incorruptible and identical to the first days of the church…?

      Have there been leaders in the official church who sound more like

      “7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.” and “22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. ”

      than ” 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” and “23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

      My point being — If history/tradition of the church is supposed to be my foundation — I’m going to have a line of atheists and liberal believers — a line circumnavigating the globe multiple times — to point out to me every point in time that leaders in the church did things no Just God would agree with…

      Church history has been going on for 2,000 years now —- and it isn’t all peaches and cream — including whatever leaven Luther and later Protestant leaders of denominations added to it….

      If I can’t trust my Bible because I can’t read the original language (or any other reason).

      And I can’t trust the Church because – in its long history – human beings have added interpretations and doctrines and other things that might be highly corrupt —

      — where the heck are people telling me I must turn…?

      3. I wrote a very long comment a few hours about to a post someone linked for me that was by Walid Shoebat that explained his story of coming across these 7 books and why he believes they are a big thing for all Christians to consider… The comment will need to be cleared, so I can’t link to it here.

      The short version is something I believe I wrote yesterday too:

      What in the 7 books fundamentally alters what believers who only have the books of my Bible offer…?

      Since the 7 books are part of a Bible that includes all of the books of my Bible —- do the scriptures in those 7 books contradict or expose as corrupt the other books in it’s very own collection?

      If my Bible is corrupt because of items taught in those 7 books – then there must be something wrong with the Old Testament that you read before and the New Testament you read after those 7…

      Or — do the scriptures in those 7 books – since they were originally Jewish scriptures – agree pretty much with the rest of the Jewish scriptures and the books of the New Testament?

      If they do, then how crippled is a Christian like me whose Bible doesn’t contain them…?

      The point being – Christian and Jewish texts are not Islamic.

      If you can locate contradictions and corruptions in the Jewish scriptures and New Testament scriptures — Judaism and Christianity are in huge trouble….

      This is the very claim Muslims and liberal believers and atheists have long used to attack Christianity (and I’d guess Judaism too)…

      But — if those 7 books do not expose corruptions or contradictions in the New and/or Old Testament – which is the same for both Bibles — why could we say it is mandatory for Protestants to read and integrate into their beliefs those 7 books?

      This seems somewhat like a Catch-22 argument to me… at least where it pertains to Salvation:

      Consistency is a must for a fundamentalist believer – Jewish or Christian…

      If these 7 books expose a core lack in the beliefs of Jews and Christians who don’t have them in their Holy Text – we have mammoth problems with each of these Bibles….including the one with the 7 in it….because all are largely identical…

      ….It would seem to me….

      But, I’ll need to think it over some more….

      Above all – Paul told me plainly that he preached Christ and Him Crucified – a stumbling block for Jews and foolishness to Greeks…

      He stressed several times that anyone who tries to add to that – in terms of Salvation – is not coming from God…

      If those 7 books or anything else in the New Testament contradict and invalidate that —- a religion that isn’t like Islam – and doesn’t give its prophet and messengers “do-overs” is in fundamental crisis…

      • “What in the 7 books fundamentally alters what believers who only have the books of my Bible offer…?”

        Why not simply take seven more. How about some of the minor prophets?

        Then I could ask: what in the 14 books fundamentally alters what believers who only have the books of my Bible offer…?

        What would you say?

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        You seem like you are in a crisis or something. Salvation is core in all of Christianity however we cannot as mere humans, creatures created by the Almighty comprehend His salvific plan for all. He is beyond space and time Thus the Church teaches that God so desires that all of humanity be saved God’s will, by the way, the word Christian was coined by the Jews as a derogatory term for followers of Jesus, who were actually called People of The Way (The Way here is in reference to the Lord being the Way, Truth and the Life) and later members of the Catholic Church. Acts 9:31 where the Greek words kath ho les is first used to describe the Church throughout the land.

        The Council of Jamnia saw the throngs of Jews converting, these converts knew that Christ is the Messiah that was prophesied in the OT. Thus Christianity, even a as a slur, at that time is the fulfillment of Judaism.

        They Council had to stop this one way or another, so those 7 books if were of such significance as to be the cause for the conversion of the Jews then surely they must have more than just significance but also of salvific truth.

        {If they do, then how crippled is a Christian like me whose Bible doesn’t contain them…?}

        Short answer is: Very, since those books teach of Purgatory, prayer for those in purgatory, the priesthood and merit. Protestants deny the existence of Purgatory and the authority and historicity of the priesthood and rely on OSAS. The denial of the aforementioned and reliance on OSAS is in itself unbiblical, however the accusation is always reversed and hurled at those who uphold the teachings in those 7 books, namely, those damned Catholics and Orthodox.

        Your point of corruption in the Church etc etc has no bearing on the Truth the Church teaches, which has not changed, men are men, they are merely humans, men will inherently be corrupt, tempted and fall victim to their own desires, the Church which has the Holy Spirit dwelling cannot. We have had some of the worst, corrupt and selfish popes in the Church’s history, but they have never changed the Truth that the Church teaches, despite the false allegations, no where can there be found a detraction from what was taught from the 1st Century up till now. See my previous reply with reference to the Deposit of Faith.

        {And I can’t trust the Church because – in its long history – human beings have added interpretations and doctrines and other things that might be highly corrupt —}

        The above clearly explains this. The Church is never corrupt, written words can and always can be, thus, you have the Mormons hijacking scripture, the JWs adding words and saying that The Archangel Michael and Jesus were brothers and the SDA or whatever else say that Jesus and the Devil are both created and are brothers etc. I may have wrongly attributed such beliefs to the wrong cult, one or the other believes that anyway, these cults are not of any importance to you or me in this discussion, but the gist of the matter is that people generally corrupt what is truth to suit their agendas. Luther did the same, as did Calvin, Zwingli and a whole host of other that came along the line, and thenceforth all of those 40000 denominations that exists today has some form of using scripture to suit their agendas.
        The Church that Christ founded has only one agenda, the salvation of souls, that truth as taught by way of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Oral Tradition and Scripture guided by the Holy Spirit cannot be corrupt.

        I cannot answer all of the questions you pose, some of them blur the lines between rhetorical and while some seem to be in need of an answer, while I profess I do not have all the answers, I will say this, my faith is based on the obedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church and her Magisterium, the authority of the shepherds therein and on the interpretation of scripture by the Church alone. I hold to the belief, that the Church is the only authority of scriptural interpretation, prophesy and instruction. This is not blind faith, but true faith in Apostolic succession and the authenticity and legitimacy of the Deposit of the Faith.

        These links maybe of some help to you. Please do not read this as mocking you or trying to condescend. I see that you are truly in search for truth, and all I can do is offer you a Catholic perspective, a perspective that you never had the opportunity to see because of what ever preconceptions and hearsay that may have influenced you. Anyway, have a read at your leisure.








  • Julie LaBrecque

    See verses above – please get out of the Watchtower Society – they are nothing but false prophets – how many failed prophecies does it take for you JWs to wake up? Still plan on driving Abraham and the patriarchs around the US in a car?

    • Violet Vanderhelm

      Julie the important tenet is to believe Christ was God and pure – that his Father is God, not a human Joseph. Mary was the mother, the vessel to deliver him who was a virgin, pure and that has been established since Jewish young girls in their teens were virgins. It states Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary raised Christ as a normal child to a certain extent, so it was only natural that both Joseph and Mary had sex AFTER the Son of God was born – why should they not. Her mission to deliver the Lord was accomplished and Joseph and Mary were married, so why not have sex – no law would have stopped them. The argument of the Pharisees for not believing in Christ was that fact that he had a mother and father and brothers and sisters which to them meant – he is NOT GOD. They did not believe in the spiritual, miracle of birth of CHrist (without a human sperm).

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You protestants are such carnal people – tell my ONE place where Mary OR Joseph are named as parents to any other person. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and Joseph became aware of that when the angel told him the baby conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit – no way would he touch her lest he die – can you explain why Mary said “I KNOW NOT MAN.”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    God doesn’t USE humans –

  • I would like you to start reading the Ante Nicene Fathers. Their writings have deepened my understanding of Christian theology.


    They have PDFs of their writings so you could read at your pace.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus spoke to the dead – Peter spoke to the dead – David spoke to the dead – your theory is busted by the Bible.

    • mspip

      yes, when Jesus spoke they came back to life!

    • Hazel Waldron

      Really? Chapter and verse please. Jesus spoke to those who had died to raise them from the dead. But I am interested in where you have read this in the Bible.

      • “Chapter and verse please. ”

        I did not leave Islam because I asked Christians “chapter and verse please”, I left Islam because I searched on my own. You can easily google the issue on your own and then come back and make an argument. I can send you a link, here:


        Now start refuting line by line.

        But I doubt that your interest is search. Hope I am wrong.

        • Rapheal Sebastian

          Also I bet there was no one going around asking the Apostles when they were teaching for chapter and verse, please.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Praying to/for dead: ELIJAH prayed for THE
        DEAD – 1 Kings 17:19-22; DAVID prayed to/for THE DEAD – 2 Samuel 1:19-27 (Note: David actually speaks to Jonathan, v.26) PETER prayed for the dead – Acts 9:40-41; PAUL prayed for the dead – 2 Tim 1:16-18. Jesus prayed for the dead, John 11:43: “When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud
        voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

    • Rapheal Sebastian

      John 11:43, Jesus called out to the dead Lazarus to come out!

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The prayer of a righteous man avails much – I would say that Paul’s pray for Onesiphorus was heard.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Telling someone that they have forgotten scripture is throwing around judgments?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him on the last day.” Is this a core tenet your sect’s faith? Is Mary your mother in your sect?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So you deny the Lord’s clear words?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Your skin is paper thin – I never judged you.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You should be sorry because you are ignoring all the verses that identify the parents of the ‘brothers’ of Jesus – you need to read your protestant forefathers said and believed about Mary.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Pointing to scripture is throwing stones?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You call me a stone thrower when I do – so what do you want me to do?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Those 7 books were canonized – you can’t ‘undo’ canonization – nothing in ‘those’ books contradict scripture in ‘the rest’ of the Bible. Luther wanted to throw out James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation – James contradicted his novel theory of ‘faith alone’ salvation.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)? By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)? [SOMETHING WE DO] By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)? [SOMETHING WE DO] By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)? By declaring with our mouths (Luke 12:8; Rom 10:9)? [A WORK] By coming to a knowledge of the
    Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)? [OUR ACHIEVEMENT] By works (Rom 2:6, 7; James 2:24)? By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)? By perseverance (Matt 10:22; Mk 13:13; Col 1:22-23)? By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)? By His righteousness (Rom 5:17;
    2 Pet 1:1)? By His cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14), By eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:54)

    • mspip

      tho not iggy, i amgoing to look up and read all these. thank you.

  • RodK1975

    I hope you’ll stick around, Iggy… this was my whole point in my main comment above… we don’t have any hope of ever being able to work together if we don’t at least try to understand the other person’s theological position, why they believe what they believe and at least try to see things from the other person’s perspective…

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Can you see that you disregard scripture passages when they contradict your own interpretation? Peter said that scripture is not for private interpretation. Communion is not a ritual, it is a binding doctrine, per the lips of Jesus the Lord.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice.

  • Стефан Евгений

    YES! we can read the original iggy, and it is not in classical Greek, I was taught by my Godparents who spoke Doric that is a direct decent from Koine Greek spoken by the Apostles.

    The Gospel according to Luke 1

  • Стефан Евгений

    Who gave you the right to take it out,?


    • mspip

      i must research and find out what has been removed that should still be there!

  • RodK1975

    Iggy, I can’t speak for Rudy, but I think what he basically means is “honoring” is that Christians should continually admire, honor, pay respects to Mary like we would decorated war heros and other people that we hold in very high esteem but a little above them, but not to the point of worship. And by “detriment” I think he means that not “honoring” Mary or looking a Mary as just an ordinary person that just happened to birth and mother the Son of God, that we’re missing out on striving to become as Christian that dedicates themselves as much to Christ as we possibly can by attempting to emulate Mary’s concern for, dedication to and her motherly love for Christ. I probably didn’t describe it well enough, but that’s my understanding…

  • Стефан Евгений

    The Gospel came from the Church. in our oral Tradition.

    Let me give an example John 9:1 sacred Tradition teaches that Jesus made eyes from the dirt and spittle, the man was born without eyes Christ pushed them into the sockets we can see this clearly in greek the people did not recognize the man for the change in his appearance was so great, they thought it was another man.

  • Стефан Евгений
  • Tom_mcewen

    And jesus said, The father and I are one.

  • Tom_mcewen

    Why the holy spirit didn’t penetrate her, Jesus appeared in a locked room, so He as God can not escape from a locked womb. Your God does seem capable of creation.

  • Стефан Евгений

    Not only Catholics but Orthodox, See elder Cleopa, The problem is the English till or untill Heos in greek it is a infinite word it dos not end. So Scripture and Tradition are clear she was ever virgin,


  • DanlBoone

    God doesn’t have a “Mother”.. worshipping Mary, eg, “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God” “Co-Redemptrix” are all Roman heresies.

  • The point I was making about the Transfiguration is that since Moses and Elijah are alive, then we should reason that those died in Christ are alive at this present moment.

    Since Jesus said that heaven is God’s throne, then the saints are in the King’s court, and if they are praying for us and along with us, then I don’t see the objection to it.

    I was taught that prayer is another form of submitting a petition to God. Jesus told us that when we pray we pray to the Father so that He would be glorified through the Son. Catholic and Orthodx teaches this as well. They are trying to say that the saints also petition for us and with us.

  • as for denominations affiliation, I grew up in a Southern Baptist, then joined a Charsmatic Pentecostal, and later a Foursquare church. Now? I’m without a church.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Tell me when Jesus disobeyed his mother – the mother of the King is the one that CROWNS the King, Song of Songs 3:11

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus spoke to the dead – Peter spoke to the dead – David spoke to the dead. Why does you sect cut off those in the Body of Christ from the Body of Christ – there is only ONE Body.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “This Lady and Virgin Queen will sit to the right of the throne of her Son on the day of the Second Coming (Ps 45:9).” Quarrel all you want, you don’t know scripture like you think you do. (Quotation given is from the Orthodox Church.)

  • Julie LaBrecque

    This Lady and Virgin Queen will sit to the right of the throne of her Son on the day of the Second Coming (Ps 45:9).

    • Jimi Belton

      Julie La. Please stop making up things that does not fit into the PROPER setting of Scripture…I really feel ill at times, when I read these ”out of whack” verses

  • You just separated Christ from God. Can’t do that.

  • When Jesus ascended to heaven, the Angels told the men who was still gazing, “Why do you stand there gazing? This same Jesus you saw go will return in the same manner.” He is going to return in the flesh.

    Your theology is way out of whack.

  • Then you don’t understand at all.

  • Стефан Евгений

    IT is the DIscus site that holds them up

  • Julie

    What religion do you belong to ?

    Do you know many people kept pictures of St. Jude and kept handkerchiefs that touched the apostles?

    Do you know what Catholics believe? I don’t think so.

    We are not idolators and to think such….

    Do you know in Exodus a graven image of cherubs face the Mercy Seat in the ancient temple of Jerusalem? That the priests had all their vestments defined by the Lord, down to ‘graven imags’ of pomegranates on their hems?

    Sacred Scripture provides you images of the birth of Christ in a stable with His mother and St Joseph. Arent you creating a graven image in your mind when you reflect on them?

    What about Christmas cards?

    You have inherited scruples…and this is what I mean when people are so quick to say they have God, they have Christ, but have no idea what it means to be redeemed and saved by Christ as True God AND True Man.

    If I were you, I would go find out what Catholics truly believe and not these 1800’s rural American misrepresentations.

    There is such a thing as another commandment you have overlooked: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

  • Julie

    Agree. But the misrepresentations about my sacred faith are so perverted and false it makes me question if these people are truly Christian.

    If you want to find out what Catholics truly believe, you do yourself justice to go to the Catholic Answer Forum, the one in particular for non Catholics.

    There people will go in depth to explain our faith and provide you many references.

    Bless you.

  • Julie

    It is the time they become adults.

  • Julie

    No I am quite secure. It is the fact that you people who claim to be so much better have a most distorted concept of how we believe.

    I just don’t see how people can claim to be superior Christians and have such preconceived and bad concepts of Catholics, and refuse to even find out what we truly believe.

    There is the commandment of not bearing false witness…and in my life of Christ, He calls me to seek understanding of my neighbor.

    So may be we do believe in two different Christs.

    I don’t go lurking around Protestant sites and attacking other Christians, but I do defend my faith against English American prejudice. Not so much for those who do this, we have to pray and do penance, but for those who simply read posts and ponder.

  • Keantobekean

    Umm just a wee adjustment. Luke’s genealogy goes from bathsebas 2nd son Nathan to Mary’s father. Joseph is son in law( Luke 3 v23 ….being(as was supposed) the son of Joseph the son of Heli.
    Verse 31 the son of Nathan. The son of David

  • Julie

    Good…I sense the Holy Spirit at work in you irregardless…continue to follow the Holy Spirit.

  • There is no contradictions in these 7 books. The thinking you have is ‘how does this effect salvation’ is not a valid one. Its like saying that the clutch and the breaks are essential, but the two flaps inside the car over our heads do not. How can one even imagine the Bible being full without Macabbees and Wisdom?

    The Church had these for 1500 years. Where they just crazy, or was Luther crazy?

    You think too much and give yourself a headache.

    • Iggy Autry

      I don’t agree with the analogy or the thought. Respectfully…

      Part of this topic was some commenting in the thread that Protestants do not place Mary in a proper position and it threatens or negates their salvation. That the way Catholics deal with Mary is an essential item to become Saved and Protestants are missing it…

      That’s huge…

      That’s not pieces of the car missing. That’s being in two different cars – on two different paths….

      And part of the suggestion was or seemed to be that — if we’d just read those 7 books, we’d see the error of our ways and see that we haven’t achieved Salvation yet.

      — That is like saying I need a car to drive to heaven but I’ve got one without an engine and wheels which is also locked in cement.

      That’s a Salvation issue.

      Not a proper practice issue.

      Not an issue about what makes a better or worse Christian…

      Someone was saying or implying my Salvation is in question because I don’t take Communion regularly and that the physical act of taking communion was necessary for Salvation… that it was a mandatory act – not just an outward symbol that I’d accepted Christ as God and Savior…

      Do scriptures in the 7 books elevate Mary to a position above what the average Protestant believes — which is that Jesus was born of a virgin – Mary – who conceived via the Holy Spirit…?

      Do the scriptures make her a central part of Salvation – which Protestants are missing out on…? That Mary is going to be our advocate at the Great White Throne and if we don’t believe that our names won’t be in the Book of Life…?

      These were things stated or implied to me in the thread.

      Do those scriptures teach that faith alone does not save and to say so is heresy?

      These are things that were brought up in the comments about differences between Catholic and Protestant beliefs – with some implying that part of the problem was that Protestants aren’t reading the correct Bible or treating the authority of the Church correctly.

      Including the item of the 7 books was whether reading the Bible in English is fool hearty because I can’t read the original Greek and that’s one big reason why Protestants go wrong too.

      Another was that Church authorities are the final arbiters of what the scriptures mean – so this is another reason why Protestants go wrong and their Salvation might be in jeopardy…

      Each of these was a part of what I was talking about in a couple of long comments.

      Some were offering up ideas that either touched on whether a person is a real Christian or not —- meaning Saved or not —- or they were coming close to saying that — which I feel needed exploring for clarification…

      So basically, are we talking about learning to be a better Christian – or – whether a person following the English version of the Protestant Bible can even learn to be a real Christian — a Saved person in Christ…?


      Or Practice?

      One is absolutely vital.

      The other involves a perpetual – but often useful – discussion about interpretation and emphasis….

      • Rapheal Sebastian

        Salvation is not a once and done deal. Scripture tells us that salvation is an on going process, and one can indeed lose their salvation. Salvation cannot be reduced to a single moment in time. Paul says both that we “were saved” (Rom. 8:24) and that we “will be saved” (e.g., Rom. 5:9). Salvation is an ongoing process rather than a one­time event. God interacts with each person in a dance of divine grace and human faithfulness over time. There are decisive moments in the process of being saved, of course. The central moments are Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection from the dead. “We were reconciled to God through the death of his Son,” Paul tells us (Rom. 5:10), and “He who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also” (Rom. 8:11).

        Apostolic Tradition then teaches that in order for this to be complete all these acts of faith and works of mercy must be coupled with the Sacraments. The history of human salvation is the history of the way God came to men. The first step on this way was the bridging of the gulf separating God and man in the person of the one Mediator Jesus Christ and by his work of redemption. By means of his Church Christ makes his grace available to all. Only in this application of redemption to mankind is the redemptive action of Christ completed. The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God’s way of salvation to us. It deals with the holy signs which Christ instituted as the vehicles of his grace.

        The great mystery of the union in Christ of a human nature with the second Person of the Godhead is that the human actions and sufferings of Christ are divine actions and sufferings. The sacraments are a living continuation of this mystery. There are earthly, external signs here which, of themselves, could never acquire any supernatural significance, but the signs of the sacraments have been made by Christ into vehicles of his grace. They effect in men the grace for which Christ made them the sign.

        So there are two fundamental ideas which constantly recur in the Church’s teaching, on the sacraments. First there is the Church’s concern for these instituted by Christ, their number, and their proper preservation and administration; then the grace which Christ has for all time linked with these signs and which is communicated by them.

        The second is the effect of the sacraments. They are the signs of Christ’s work; the effectiveness of Christ’s continuing work in his Church cannot be dependent on man’s inadequacy. A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies. It is effective not by reason of the power of intercession of priestly prayer nor on account of the worthiness of the recipient, but solely by the power of Christ. The power of Christ lives in the sacraments. The effect of the sacrament is independent of the sinfulness or unworthiness of the minister. The Church has never tolerated any subjective qualification of the objective effectiveness of the sacraments ex opere operato. This would ultimately be to conceive the way of salvation as being man’s way to God and not God’s way to man.

        The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation. The sacraments are the vehicles of grace which they convey. They are validly administered by the carrying out of the sign with the proper intention. Not all are equally qualified to administer all the sacraments. The validity of the sacrament is independent of the worthiness of the minister. Three sacraments imprint an indelible character.

        Sacramentals are instituted by the Church and are effective by virtue of the Church’s intercession. Institution and alteration of them is reserved to the Holy See.

        • William Dean Ziemer

          I suppose if one insists on avoiding the more sure verses that put the question to rest “once and for all”, just as we are to rest in the finished work of Christ, one may disrespect this great salvation that Christ payed for and that no one can work for, pay for or earn in anyway, that was given to us while we were yet His enemies, alienated by sin.

          But in truth, the person who has truly understood the depravity or their own actions and imaginations, has denied them and any attempt to bridge the gap that only Christ can and has embraced His immense paternal love, accepting the too good to be true news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they can rest in Him and see the fruit of the spirit in their lives. No matter how many times they fail they will turn in that same second and see that God’s love for them had not changed for a moment… the work of Christ is finished and we are to rest in that and revel in it.

          I do! and I don’t let my short coming hold me back from praising Him and giving Him thanks for His incredible grace and mercy, which was demonstrated for the world in the body of Jesus Christ.

          I’m truly free to worship my Savior with no fear and with total boldness in Christ, to humbly accknowledge His presence 24 hours a day every day.





  • William Dean Ziemer

    “Hence we can see that even in the Tenach, there is clearly a case of the possibility of having such a thing as “Mother of God”.”

    “clearly a case of the possibility”… And of course, this has a 50/50 chance, also, on being absolute, evidence that it is not talking about what you desperately want it to be talking about… as you say, “clearly a… possibility”, which the average reader can understand to mean nothing in an argument.

    Catholic doctrine exalts the demon, that calls its self Mary, above mortal man and applauds and encourages prayers and songs that exalt it. Catholic teachings and writings even usurp the authority of redemption from Christ and bestow it upon this blasphemous demon spirit encouraging followers to hide in the arms of the false Mary to be protected from an angry God.

    My God! Some of the prayers of Catholics are extremely Antichrist!

    It will surprise me if the truly Blessed Mary >is not< standing in judgement of Catholics in the same way that Jesus told the teachers of the Law, that Moses would be their judge because they trusted in him.

    My hope and prayer for Catholics is that the scales of man's teachings and traditions fall from their eyes and that they find the true and rich love that God the Father has for them apart from works; the great love that is given freely by the power of the blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead.
    May you hear Him calling you out! I affirm this in the power, in the name of Jesus Christ.

    • Rapheal Sebastian

      Sick..such wickedness in what you write is nothing but vile bile filled demonic hate while you attach demons to everything other than your supposed beliefs. God have mercy on you, May Jesus the Lord have mercy on you for saying such things about his mother.

      • William Dean Ziemer

        Holy Scripture backs what I believe and the Holy Spirit of God affirms it. Much of Catholicism is based on men’s demonic experiences. It can not be backed by Holy Scripture and in many cases is Antichrist.

        But please, if you have actual Holy Scriptures that clearly state without a Catholic “interpretation” that what I’m saying is false, please enlighten me.

        But I know you have nothing but men’s words to back what you believe… words, which contradict clear Scriptural teachings.

        May God open your eyes and heart to see the perfect, integral love of God our Father and to know how great His love is for you so that you may be confident in your right and holy standing with Him based, not on what you must do, but on what Christ has done out of love for you.

        There is only one mediator between God and man… it is Jesus Christ and no other.

        • Rapheal Sebastian

          You are so deluded, that you forget it is the Catholic Church that brought the Bible to the world, you hatred clouds logic, judgment and facts. No Catholic Church no Christianity, basic fact. And from what you write it is obvious you are an idolater, an idolater of a faceless God, an iconoclast, an idolater of a book, you deify a book over the words of Jesus and His Apostles way before the book was even made into one. Good luck also with your likening His mother to a demon, a word of advice, it is not smart to speak of anyone’s mother they way you have.

          • Willing to die for Jesus

            This person is a “missionary” from Oregon to Catholic Latin America, to Guatemala where he has lived for over a decade.

            I haven’t come across anybody more blasphemous than him with regard to the Blessed Virgin.

            He seems to make it his “mission” to save dumb Catholics from perceived Mariolatry. It is truly sickening and demonic stuff that comes out of him.

            Furthermore, he actually once said to me that my profile picture of Christ the King was “like a rattlesnake” warning to him… so he is drawn to Catholics and attacking everything Catholic.

            It’s pretty tragic he goes to Guatemala than attempting to reach people “for Christ” in his home state which is the most secular in the entire US with less than half the state being Christian and home to the first region in the world that legalized euthanasia by referendum.

          • William Dean Ziemer

            Your catholic indoctrination has left you ignorant of the eternal truth that it is God…(not the Catholic Church) who brought His word to man through various men and has preserved it through various means including having it translated into Greek, hiding in clay bottles, protecting it from enemies and then ripping it from the hands of the Popes who sealed it off from the masses because they didn’t want us ignorant common people to read it… But God Himself has prevailed over the tyranny of the Popes and their heretical teachings and men’s traditions!

            I am beyond confident in God who called me to Himself apart from any denomination just over 40 years ago and has kept me as He keeps His word and assured me of His love for me and of my eternal life with Him in the presence of the angles through the 100% finished work of Jesus Christ His son. He has opened His Holy Scriptures to me and has shown me things that only He can reveal.

            Now, again, as I said before, May God open your eyes and heart to see the perfect, integral love of God our Father and to know how great His love is for you so that you may be confident in your right and holy standing with Him based, not on what you must do, but on what Christ has done out of love for you.

            There is only one mediator between God and man… it is Jesus Christ and no other.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Pfft..you are filled not with God’s spirit but with something else obviously. Your snake venom and bile retching empty rhetoric is a sign of an obvious sickness. You wouldn’t know truth if it came out and bit you in your rear. I am sure you are all so brave, but in reality are a coward who probably at the glimmer of a blunt knife deny Christ if you are in Syria or Iraq and bet you don’t know that all those Christians that ISIS are killing for refusing to deny Christ are Catholic, but you and your ignorant ilk will also deny that.

          • William Dean Ziemer

            You are confident in your assumptions about me. My confidence is in Him who called me and gave me new life in Him.

            I don’t know you from Adam so I won’t venture a guess but by your own words and manner of accusations, it seems clear that you have nothing of substance to talk about and do not know anything of the Holy Scriptures themselves but only that which you have been taught to believe by teachers of men’s traditions.

            You use words similar to those that the Pharisees used against Jesus but I can tell you confidently, I know who I am in Christ and I know I am in His eternal care right now. I confess that Jesus was crucified to take away the sins of the world including mine, a person who blasphemed God, ridiculed His followers and mixed the Holy name of Jesus with every base word I could think of… but by the grace of God, I am in His presence, forgiven.

            I confess that Jesus Christ rose from the dead in power and is seated at the right hand of God the Father of man and of angels and the creator of all.

            Assume all you want about me, it really has no effect on me or on anyone who is truly hidden in Christ so, I say again, May God open your eyes and heart to see the perfect, integral love of God our Father and to know how great His love is for you so that you may be confident in your right and holy standing with Him based, not on what you must do, but on what Christ has done out of love for you.

            There is only one mediator between God and man… it is Jesus Christ and no other.

  • William Dean Ziemer

    Where is the Catholic Monolithic Religion headed with this? Doesn’t look good.

    “Vatican spokesman: Islam teaches “non-violence in the name of God”


  • Then answer this simple question – is Jesus God?

    If so, then Mary is the Mother of God in reference to Christ.

    That’s all there is to it.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    It is a serious error to say that God has parts. I hope this prevents you from ever using the word “part” when discussing the Holy Trinity.

    The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

    Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.”

    In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

  • RodK1975

    Good point, Parks, most people would rather just argue and cast dispersion because it’s easier than putting forth the effort to listen, learn and understand the opposite side… Plus, it’s easier for a person to assume they have all the right answers when they don’t listen to others.



      • RodK1975

        It’s ok, Parks, this site is moderated… so sometimes it takes a while for comments to get through…

        • PARKS CURTIS


  • RodK1975

    Iggy, Trevor has found some good resources that explain some of the Ante-Nicene church Father’s thoughts and positions on the Antichrist and Tribulation…

  • No I didn’t. Reread what I just said.

    • racarrera

      Don’t slop around with the swine. You get dirty and they get annoyed.

  • Check out my blog. The link is in my Disqus profile.

  • Julie

    Guess what? Catholics agree with you 100% on the references you shared on being saved…ours is a life long conversion, picking up the Cross, following Him, dying to self everyday and trusting in His mercy. He is our righteousness.

    Praying as they are already in heaven….we ask the saints to pray for us as they can see the face of God before them. This is what is being a member of the Church, the communion of saints….we are not. Mary’s prayers are most powerful because she did not sin and was especially made by God to be Christ’s mother, He her only concern.

  • Julie

    You should speak to a priest. Really. You come across as a trophy…that is how those cults look upon Catholics like you, a trophy.

    Pray to the Lord to be delivered. Such concepts are not of God.

    And you are mixing up the Word of God with that of the Church that is given the duty to teach. Orthodox is Eastern Christian, founded by the apostles, the Latin Church is the Western Church founded by St. Peter and St. Paul.

    Both exhorted us to follow their teachings and tradition. Tradition is putting into practice the apostolic faith. The catechism defines our tradition of faith. You can download it online

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    The Catholic Church has 23 rites, the Roman rite which actually is the Latin rite is often called the Roman Catholic Church which although is not wrong but terribly inaccurate. There is only ONE CHURCH, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There are 23 rites which include the Coptic, Alexandrian, Chaldean, Byzantine, Armenian and Antiochian. The Eastern Orthodox brethren, although still remain in schism are not Protestants and they share all the same Apostolic succession, rites, liturgy with the Catholic Church, neither is superior both are two lungs of the same body. The only difference is that there are some theological differences that should have been easily worked out but has remained unchanged. It’s simply an East and West issue.

    The fact that the Methodist, Lutherans, and some others also say the creed some even took the extraordinary step of removing the words Catholic Church from it, it is a deliberate attempt to distance themselves from the Apostolic Creed, this shows why they are Protestants, contrarian, anti-anything Catholic, when clearly for 2000 years the Holy Catholic Church is what is meant in the Creed. The Nicene creed existed way before the Methodists or any other derivative of Protestantism came about. The Catholic Church is pre-denominational too, I might add.

    As to the response to No Catholic Church No Christianity, there are contrary opinions to this however, facts remain that those arguments are mostly ad hominem attacks not based on historicity or fact, even in Acts 9:31 the Church was identified, of course once again in the Greek language. History is replete with acts of defensive wars against conquests by muslims, even before the Protestant heresy came about in 1517 AD. The victories against the muslim hordes cemented the Church’s position and that of all Christendom. This is history, even contrarians have not or are unable to refute this.

    One very very insightful man Cardinal John Henry Newman once said this, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” While this maxim is not a rule, it generally states why so many are not Catholic simply because the lack of knowledge of Church history.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    You are right, everything points back to God, His salvific plan and how He implemented that salvific plan through Christ the LORD who is Savior. And thus the Apostolic Creed or the Nicene Creed clearly states what we believe. Any diversion from those core beliefs makes you not a Christian.

  • racarrera

    This article might be of help to understand the Trinity just a bit more: https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-doctrine-of-the-holy-trinity

  • John Doe-Believer

    I know … that is written in my translation too. However, it makes 13 generations only and a spouse isn’t part of anyone’s geneology. Additionally, since Joseph is the stepfather only and Mary’s geneology nowhere mentioned then the prophecy and the claim that the Messiah is from the line of King David impossible to make.

  • racarrera

    That’s quite true. What the Church Fathers did, however, was give us a deep framework to ponder. You’re quite right that we’ll never ‘know’ God in the deepest sense, though we ‘see’ God through His energies and through His hand in Creation.

    There are a lot of books within Orthodoxy where we do try to get to a deeper understanding of how the Holy Trinity works. I will be happy to point out sources when you feel up to it.

  • Julie

    What they have to connect Mary not sinning is to the very reason Christ came for us: The atonement of sin.

    To place our Lord in a sinful human tabernacle goes against the consistency of our understanding of God.

    Mary answered that ‘she did not know man.’ She was a consecrated virgin, first born and placed in the temple at a very early age, all and totally consecrated to the Lord.

    The angel answered her and likewise indicated that ‘With God all things are possible, showing that God would honor her consecrated virginity and through His power, she would be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceive the Man God.

    Why she would desire to do anything else outside this greatest calling in the world again is totally out of the constancy and will of God.

  • Julie

    Thanks, you are a dear soul.

    Christ will provide us a new Jerusalem. He will never come back to this earth. Look at the very last passages of Sacred Scripture of this world, it will fold up and we will be given a new heaven and a new earth.

    I want to die with the sacraments. God could take me any day and at any place. But I want the beautiful sacrament of receiving His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist in my dying moments and I want the blessing and sacrament of my entire being before I pass on to the next world. So that is the perceived anxiety…i don’t know what movie you are talking about.

    In regards to ‘works’ I have no idea what they are even saying..it is like accusing…instead of centering their lives on Christ.

    We are to pick up our cross and follow Him, die to ourselves daily, and persevere to the end. Christ said, I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me….

    What we do to others, we do to Christ. And He ties this to the Last Judgment. How can we say we believe in Christ but not live in Him and extending His saving and redeeming love to those around us??? It is living our faith in Him.

    When we receive the Eucharist, we are filled with His life and our response at the end of Mass, we are now through Him all united and one, and now we go out to serve Him in our neighbor.

    So simple. There is nothing to criticize or attack…but there are those who get side track….every moment we live is a gift from God and He wants us to live it in Him and not criticize others …not that I sense that in you…don’t waste your life ….thinking about other people…in such a way that makes one critical or anxious….it takes time and maturity….reflect on His Word, pray…continue to seek Him.

    God bless you!

  • Julie

    If my faith was what you are indoctrinated to think it is…then it would have died out a long time ago. NObody is forcing anyone to stay and the pope is not monitoring me or anyone else.

    Of course, in your position, it is the Catholic preachers and teachers you are targeting.

    Please re examine your education and training and orientation. Why not get yourself a copy of the Catholic Catechism, go one doctrine at a time, seeing what Scriptures it is referring to, the deep teachings of the Early Church Fathers, the saints and popes, the councils…many people who have renounced everything for the Gospel.

    I don’t think it is that Christian people using misunderstanding and misinterpretation and prejudice to promote themselves, and there is a commandment many forget and it regards not bearing false witness against one’s neighbor.

    You just did to me …as a person and a believer. Just because so many are Catholic doesn’t mean your comments just go over our head.

    They are very insinuating, prejudice and non Christian as well as very immature.

    Grow spiritually…you are not seeking the Lord but your own self righteousness.

  • Julie

    Yes it would be.

    But then their faith is for us very shallow. They do not grasp the depth of the Lord that we do in Word and Eucharist and in the life of the Church.

    It is hard for them to understand the Beatific Vision…to realize how much the Blessed Mother knew before her was the Son of God and the angels postrated themselves before Him all the time.

    I just don’t see how…considering there are Catholics who have profound spiritual friendships, decided to marry but not have personal relations…yet the Blessed Mother had other impulses and other children that would take her away from such a sublime calling.

    Without the Eucharist, the sacraments, the communion of the Holy Trinity — our main vocation in life, it is very hard for Protestants. And they don’t know anything about the Eastern Orthodox, Theotokos.

    I was doing nursing care in a Greek Orthodox home and the day person told me she was taken back by the icons in the home and she told me she was a Christian. I told her those are icons of Mary the Mother of God and I am Catholic and a Christian and so this family.

    It is very hurtful.

  • Julie

    Yes, the New Jerusalem will be the new heaven and earth.

    If you chose Christ, if you are called to Holy Communion in the Church, when you receive, you say ‘Amen’ attesting to the fact and greater reality that you are indeed receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

    When people receive without faith they are either not realizing this is a sacrilege, or they willfully do so and do commit a sacrilege.

    We are to protect the sacredness of God. We are not to receive unworthily. There are those in ancient times who were willfully sinning and went up to receive, and one man in particular dropped dead. St Paul spoke of those getting sick because they were not conforming their lives to the Lord.

    Even the Lutherans require people to be in full communion with their beliefs to receive their communion, because communion is the calling together of all people with the same faith, intent, and shared journey in the Lord.

    So many of us are praying for the reunification of being back at one table of the Lord…the Latin, Orthodox, and our separated brethren in the Protestant churches. I cannot receive communion in the Orthodox church because of the schism right now, but there are many working on this as well. So we respect this discipline.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    No Catholic would deny that there were self serving and corrupt clergy throughout history, however that does not change what the Church teaches, they were corrupt for their own selfish reasons, the corrupt popes never changed Church doctrine.

    The supposed atrocities during Spanish Inquisition has been more than debunked by none other than Christian hating wholly atheistic and secular BBC.

    The Protestant heresy, or rebellion as you call it, is exactly what it is. The very root of it is “protest”. Luther did more damage to Christianity than imaginable, alongside Calvin, Zwingli and the rest tat came after that derived their religion on that of the theology of aforementioned men.

    What you see of those charlatans on tv that seek to bilk and milk believers off out of their money by mailing, strange items like arrows and hearts and all sorts of paraphernalia for “seed” money is a butt of jokes of non-believers. How do we save souls when the basic logic in unbelievers minds is that Christianity based on what they see on tv is a scam? They are definitely not wrong is making that assumption when we have charlatans like Creflo Dollar, whose personal need for a private jet saw him try to raise 65 million dollars for it. Prosperity gospel preachers, these and a whole host of charlatans, selling blood moon histrionics based on dodgy prophesy and gametria, which by the way is an occult practice of kabbalistic Jews, whose end time predictions and date setting have never come true. Scripture warns us not to indulge in such activities or trying to determine when the end times are, for only God knows the time.

    Then you have race baiting charlatan reverends like Sharpton and Jackson always finding a way to make money out of personal tragedies of innocent people.

    These people bring disrepute if not ridicule to Christianity. This is why if there is any reason to to excoriate Luther and those thereafter for their fruit, this reason alone should be more than enough.




    THIS IS NOT ALLOWING ME TO EVEN ARTTATCH A IMAGE SENDING TO YOUR EMAIL AS IFT IS FUNNY / BUYT SAD file:///Users/robertcurtis/Desktop/TRUMP/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-10%20at%206.53.33%20AM.png

  • Julie

    Why don’t you get a copy of the catechism and read confession and read what ‘absolution’ does. Yours doesn’t. Especially when you have this unholy sneering attitude to people who don’t believe just like you do.

    Sorry I don’t believe in your preacher men…The Church always had bishops and presbyters and priests…no raving, anti Catholic preacher men.



  • Violet Vanderhelm

    RE: 7 Books ( I believe they are the period historically between Old & New Testaments during the Maccabees period) – they are not in KJV so I would not bother to read them as Word of God, perhaps they may contain historical value, traditions exposed. I would have to read other history books of the same period to validate. KJV is the most valid because it is uniform in every language in the world. I checked in the Serbo-Croatian, for example – matched word for word of KJV. The Cyrillic Bible (All the variation Slavic languages (Makedonian too which I checked out) does not contain the 7 books but does contain a translation of KJV which is the most valid translation. The question is what you are using the Bible for: preaching, spiritual help for your sole, a history, reproof, correcting your sinful ways, predictions of the future of the world? Even my atheist friends were compelled to read the whole Bible OT & NT but did not find value in it since they do not believe in God. The Bible contains all the wisdom you need as the key your salvation in Lord Jesus Christ – what more do you need in this worldly life? It’s good for a historical reference too and you can also read other valid history books to reaffirm what the Bible already has stated. Old Greek is entirely different from Modern Greek – night and day difference. Current modern Greeks living in Greek do not even though their Old Greek. Compare it to Old Early Medieval English – pre-Shakespeare – perhaps less than 1 % of the words are discernible. Old Latin is used in medical terminology root words and some Latin languages: Italian. Language may be entirely different in spelling, sytax, grammar but the roots are familiar. As lay people I do not see value in reading the Old languages: whether Ancient Greek, ancient Latin, Ancient Aramaic, ancient Hebrew as all languages have evolved. Heaven and earth will pass away but God’s Word will never pass away nor change. Anyone adding to the books or changing them: mormon books, koran, jehovah witness scriptures is cursed as it is spreading lies and it is not written by God himself breathed into the pens of men which you find in Old & New Testaments of KJV. The major reason for apostate Christians is Leaders in Christian churches did not enforce enough that as Christians we only need to read KJV and not the other books the world offers lest they confuse you and you leave your faith. I studied under jehovah witnesses – very controlling and domineering on accepting their new book/literature, after a while of their indoctrination – they force you to choose or you are not studying with them. So when they forced me to chose KJV over their version, I told them I will chose KJV and then they disassociate with you. Abyone of us can change, add to, subtract the Old/New Testament but we will be cursed and lose our salvation.

  • Violet Vanderhelm

    Christ was in the beginning with God and was God, so Christ existed before Mary giving him birth. Christ was simultaneous both God and Man – perfect and sinless in every way and perfect living sacrifice – which he did once for the atonement of every man born, should they believe in Him.

  • Violet Vanderhelm

    sendtheclucker – you are accurate. The reason they deify Mary is because they equate deity with purity – no sex. And as a result they have to claim Mary never had sex with Joseph to retroactively proof their false point. Firstly, Paul never had sex as he had no desire. He initially killed Christians; Paul was initially no saint because he never had any desire. God revealed himself to Paul that Christ is God in vision and Paul changed, but he still was no saint. Nobody should be worshiped except FAther, Son CHrist, Holy Spirit as Trinity or God-head.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So you think you are Jesus’ mother? The Bible says her name is Mary, not Hazel.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    You are right. Matthew 5:32 …but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    Also this is pertinent.

    Romans 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

    And this too Matthew 19:6 “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

  • Julie

    There you go again…how you are drawn to falsehoods.

    So what is the great church you belong to? Why aren’t you going around having everyone come to yours…and spend your time in there feeding on deliberate misrepresentations created by the English after the Reformation.

    Even the BBC exonerated the Church.

    Yes…what is the church you belong to and who founded it and where did it start????

    Please don’t bother me any more with such falsehoods…it is sinful.

    • What has this guy been reading this whole time Salem’s witch hunt or Foxes Book of Martyrs.

      • Julie

        Thanks…and they are totally devoid of Butler’s ‘Lives of the Saints’.

        I read that many more were killed for witchcraft outside the Church.

        People then only knew what they knew, whether Christian or not. Like the world thought the world flat.

        And they think Galileo was condemned by the Church for saying the world was round, inspite of the fact that the Church refined the scientific method. And the discipline was there that each scientist was to propose their hypothesis in a particular order so that they could better arrive at the correct conclusion. Copernicus was ‘up’ before Galileo, the latter who previously received a standing ovation by the cardinals when he entered Rome. Galileo side stepped Copernicus, and likewise overstepped his jurisdiction with science, when to prove his position, he removed one line of Scripture. These two things are what got him into trouble. Yet under house arrest, and living very comfortable, he was given the freedom to continue his scientific work.

        It is sad people settle for compromised accusations and condemnations and certainly is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I wondering if I am dealing with the same person using a different name.

  • Julie

    Go do a search on Shoebat on Martin Luther, the father of ‘authentic’ Christianity and sola scriptura…doing a better job at refounding Christianity than Christ and His apostles did.

    The monasteries did so much for the population.

    If you would get some education, you would find out ‘Dark Ages’ pertained to the invasion of the barbarians attacking the former pagan Roman empire and it was the Church that was building a new society.

    May be rather, you should go find another group to be in as the one you are in sounds wicked.

    I am fed up listening to all the hatred and falsehoods and distortions by so called holy people the true Christians. I am a grandmother and it has really gotten to me this past year.

    We are so sick of it. Sick form of the true faith in Christ. You put your faith in man, and not in Christ and His will. Otherwise, you would not be drawn to such garbage.

    • “I am fed up listening to all the hatred and falsehoods and distortions by so called holy people the true Christians.”

      You can say that again.

      • Julie

        They never ID what group they belong to or where they get the junk and they always refuse to find out the truth…of course, never in us ourselves but the standard of faith which should be a daily renunciation of self.

        They go the opposite and promote themselves and it is so hard because they have made up their minds.

        I pray to the Lord to help me just ignore their taunts and pray for them.

        Thanks so much for so much for the historical background of our faith…there is always so much to learn!

      • Julie

        Alot of them, the ones that refuse to open any text to learn anything of our faith, at this level are usually older and from the South.

  • Julie

    Still hiding behind your cult.

    Get lost.

    • Jimi Belton

      Julie I an very disappointed that you would be so ugly….to soneone that is being very civil with you….I see i have been deleated everywhere….No prob…

      • Julie

        It is one thing to say ‘I don’t understand your Christianity, albeit our faith and practice the same since the beginning.’ Another thing to accuse us of idolatry, and blaspheming the Blessed Mother.

      • Julie

        My Christmas was spent on my daughter’s hope with her Protestant inlaws. I invited the mother to our Mother’s banquet that honored Mary. The mother knew we were going to see my other daughter out of state. She handed a note over to me to give to my daughter.

        We drove up, went in and gave her the note. She opened it up sitting next to me…her face dropped and she looked at me with much pain, ‘Religion destroys faith in God’.

        All I hear is to name it and claim it. I cannot share my faith at all without her coming back talking loud to dominate. At Christmas I lost a pair of scissors I borrowed from her…now think it was a little devil for all I know…so I said spontaneously, ‘I will ask St Anthony to help me find it.’ She comes back and says, ‘The Lord will find it.’

        I shared about a pastor who was in the Catholic parish in their town they moved to. I went in to see their faith. I came back to share with the dad, and he got up and walked out of the room.

        I am getting literally sick,, literally sick of so called superior Christians putting me down all the time.

        It is literally making me sick and likewise I live in a town that is notoriously anti Catholics.

        I speak on the defensive.

        I cannot take the put downs, the misconceptions, the continual games played, the blasphemies, the conspiracy theories….no more.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    You and your blasphemimg kind will have to pay for every word you utter. Now begone with you! Your kind have rewritten the bible and now you pose the work of the devil as if it was truth. Upon your death may The Son of Man, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have mercy on your soul, eternity is a very long time.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You are SICK PERVERTS –

    • It definitely gets tiring dealing with broken records and folks who never research anything. I have answered these folks and doubt that they will get it and they will keep playing their same songs. Hang in there.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Matt 27:56 “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the
    mother of JAMES and JOSEPH, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.” Mark 15:40 “There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the MOTHER of the younger JAMES and of JOSES, and SALOME.”

    John 19:25 “Standing by the cross were His mother and his
    mother’s sister, Mary the WIFE of Clopas, and Mary of Magdela.”

    Matt 10:3, Mark 3:18 “…JAMES the son of Alphaeus…”

    Luke 6:16 “…James the SON OF ALPHAEUS…..

  • Jimi Belton

    Dearest Violet, Thank you for the kind word….Violet,when Julie LaBrecque quotes the Holy Scriptures, then anyone can see the real J.L. come out of her ‘hidden self’…For Instance 1 Kings 2, especially verses 13, 14, 15, 16….

    I could write pages on the fallacy of using this chapter to justify Mary, as the ‘mother of god’….JL did this, in her last scathing comment to mith”e….BTW Violet, I do not get in any way ‘ruffled’ by people that go after me and my beliefs….Jesus never worried what anyone said about him, or even what they did to him…I guess that we can go to this Book of 1 Kings, 2 v.13.
    Adoni`jah was the older brother of Soloman. usually Heir apparent to the throne,but not so in this case, neither in David`s case….As Julie La. soundly instructed me ”In the faith”, she does not use the scriptures to justify her words….There is no other witness [There is no other ‘witness , in our case]
    Adoni`jah, son of Haggith came to Bath-sheba, Mother of Solomon, [two brothers, different mothers]….He came to Bath-sheba, and tried using guile to make his appeal, [verse15]as how HE was the older, etc. and should be on the throne…He begged Bath-sheba to intercede for him TO THE KING,.He presses Bath-sheba, v.16 not to deny him his one request.
    SPEAK, I BEG YOU UNTO SOLOMON, THE KING [for he will not deny you, or refuse you. ask him that he give me Davids Concubine, Ab`ishag in marriage…Innocent request right, WRONG…
    And Bath-sheba, did as asked, she went in unto Soloman, THE KING., and she was treated as any mother would be treated by her son, HOHOR THY MOTHER AND FATHER,,,, Mother Bath-sheba, asked her son to do what she asked and Solomon assured her that he would grant her request, and mommy asked for the hand of King David`s ex lady friend,
    Ab`ishag, in marriage,. verse 19…At this time mommy, Bath-sheba,was given Royal seating, on the right hand, [A place of the highest HONOR] of the KING, and mommy asked her son to grant a small petition, and refuse her not, King Solomon assured mommy that he would not deny her, her request… And she Ab`ishag be given to Adoni`jah, your brother, in marriage….Innocent enough, right, no,. because King had sworn to honor his mothers request, and sworn to it….well He then realized how easy mommy asking such a request from the KING could of just cost him the throne, had mommy Asked that also….OK, Let me close
    …as a result of ”THE MOTHER OF GOD, ” The mother of the king”ASKING FOR DIVINE FAVORS just caused her son King Soloman to have to go out and KILL HIS BROTHER , JOAB one of the great men of the military, was also slain, wellwell
    We see here Julie La. that your mother of god, cost men their lives, because they relied on this mother of Solomon to do their evil bidding…..

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    Exactly the Jews knew what Jesus said, he didn’t say he was the Son of God, He said He was the Son of Man. IF you knew anything at all, about Judaism, then you will know that this is exactly what God the Father said to Moses. As for stoning you, you and your New World Translation or what ever Watchtower writes you stone yourself with those things. You and your kind are so brainwashed and so cult like that your elders or whatever you call them will never allow you to read anything other than the crap they publish. So please if you want to proof anything proof that you are sane first by leaving the JW cult.

  • Jimi Belton


  • Jimi Belton

    Wow Violet, You have properly stated my very beliefs, I will add one thing that the RCC does not touch….When Yah in his great wisdom designed man and women, he built into us humans a very unique system of filtering the blood of a mother so that it does not flow into a child, that can be proven by any M.D.
    Proof is this, The blood from a child is created in the wee body of a child, and that very small ‘person’ does receive his nourshment from mumma, but not her sinful blood that she received from her sinful nature, of from fallen EVE and Adam…Therefore Baby Jesus in the smallest form of humanity
    received life from Mary, but his BLOOD-LINE was from Yahvah,
    This in No way lessens the Purity, and the Sinless perfection of Emmanual, meaning G-d with us…It just enhances your great and very correct comments, violet….Julie calls many of us sick perverts, [in caps]…just because what we teach is a purer form of worship for our Lord and Savior Yeshua, I do totally reject any, Mary cannot be the receiver of any prayer….It cannot be in our worship of Our Triune God-head…Heavenly Father, I ask you to use this forum to save any lost soul, and forgive us any sins that we might commit in just expressing thoughts….Amen

    • “His blood line was from Yahweh?”

      You think that your Messianic references of knowing a couple Hebrew words gets you closer to the way the faith was in the first centuries? Trust me, you know very little and you write as if you know something.

      Your not even aware of the near heresy you are about to enter. Belief in the Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith. Monarchians, Patripassinists, and Modalists believed that God the Father and Christ are “one person”. These heresies maintain that God the Father became Jesus Christ and is why someone is teaching you this crap.

      The bloodline could only be traced through His mother, Mary. She alone provided 100% of His genetic material, and thus provided the “flesh of the offspring of David”, as shown in Rom 1:3,
      “…concerning His Son who was born to Him according to the flesh of the offspring of David.”

      Matt 1:1, “The book of the origin of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham.”

      John 7:42, “…Does not the Scripture say that it is of the offspring of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived, that the Christ is to come.”

      2Tim 2:8, Remember that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and was descended from David.”

      Luke 1:32, “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord GOD will give Him the throne of David, His father, and He shall be king over the house of Jacob forever.”

      Gal 4:4, “But when the fullness of time came, GOD sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law.”

      See also all of these verses which refer to Jesus Christ as the Son of David:
      Matt 9:27,12:23,15:22,20:30-31,21:9,21:15,22:42,22:45, Mark 10:47-48,12:35,12:37, Luke 18:38-39, Luke 20:44.

      I am so tired of reviewing comments by folks who only look mature, but act and write with the maturity of milk fed children. And yes, PUN intended. It is a shame I see grown up folks write nonsense. In fact, I am tired of it.

      As to your other remarks in support of Violet, read my response to her and try to answer maturely.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      “YAHVAH has BLOOD? Where in the world did you dream that up?

      • He dreamed it from the heretical Messianic whom 80% deny the Trinity and he thinks he is being fed meet when he is not even being fed milk, he is drinking vomit from old heresies.

  • Jimi Belton

    please prayerfully read Mark; chapter 6 verses 1-4…If we lack wisdom let him ask G-d who will give liberally…

  • Jimi Belton

    well said….My words and thoughts exactly

  • Стефан Евгений

    Sorry, for the late reply. Iggy, Keep to the Greek, Iodays Hebrew has too many flaws, The Greek Septuagint matches the dead sea scrolls, the Masoretic text do not. you can translate the Septuagint back into Hebrew flawlessly.

    Here are several articles to pick from……http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbehalfofall/category/scripture/old-testament/

  • Jimi Belton

    Plain speak, even a total loon can understand your words….May I repeat, GOD DOES NOT HAVE A MOTHER…Just to utter those few words is sickening to my ears….That is simply putting an Idol over and above the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords

  • Julie

    Do you recall how you how you claimed me such and such…in regards to the pope and misconstrued everything?

    That is why I don’t waste time with screwy thinking.

    Why don’t you get on your knees and pray to God and stop going around thinking you are so holy and right and hate the Church and Catholics…hypocrisy is a sickness, a spiritual sickness we all have to be on guard for.

    Turn to Christ and stop attacking and misconstruing things that are outside your ballpark and life will be better for you and there will be peace in the world.


  • Julie

    That is your issue. You are not looking at the Catechism to see what we truly believe and the spirituality within.

    You want to remain in prejudice. That is not Christian. The Christ I believe in leads me to find out what others truly believe not what some sect or preacher man or Chick or other publications any educated person knows are falsehoods.

    It is evil all the sins against the commandments. And to go about thinking you are better based on falsehoods, and promoting them is a sin a serious sin…and sin is evil.

    I really don’t like conversing any more with American anti Catholics. Our history in this country has been unfortunately anti Catholic, and you are not even aware the English coming out of the Reformation were on the same par as the KGB in creating spins against my faith.

    We are human beings. I spend time trying to follow Christ. I don’t spend my time going about attacking Protestants or thinking I am better or refusing to find out what they truly believe.

    You made a profound statement in another post that you believe in Christ.

    Well so do I. So how is yours better and who do you think we go to on Sundays at church????

    That is the sad part.

    God bless, but I am finished.

  • Who is beating a dead horse? Who for the last five centuries has been writing about Mary sleeping with Joseph? Can you find Christians who say what you say from 70AD to 1500 AD? Mary sleeping with Joseph is recent interpretation, not ancient. So please get a clue. St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.

    Never heard of nuns and priests who dedicate their lives to remain virgins? Or just because you do not have this in your congregations it then must be eliminated?

    Do you suppose that Jesus should also have slept with a wife?

    Do you suppose you know how to answer a simple question: name me a Christian who lived between 70AD – 1500 AD who believed that Mary slept with Joseph?

    You can’t and you won’t. Even your Martin Luther, Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    So to say “RCC” this and “RCC” that, would require you to say the same things about your reformers. So do me a favor and find your own dead horse to beat. As early as the second century one can find Christian references (see Protoevangelium of James) that tells of Mary’s virginity before giving birth, the miraculous way in which she gave birth, and her physical virginity even AFTER giving birth.


    “The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

    Hilary of Poitiers

    “If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate” (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).


    “Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

    Epiphanius of Salamis

    “We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

    “And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).


    “[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

    “We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).

    Didymus the Blind

    “It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

    Ambrose of Milan

    “Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

    Pope Siricius I

    “You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).


    “In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

    “It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

    “Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).


    “We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

    Cyril of Alexandria

    “[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

    And all of the sudden, you folks come in here acting as if you were experts on the subject. Stop listening to a guy dressed up in a Hawaiian shirt.

  • Taking one aspect of what Jesus said and denying other aspects of what Jesus says is the practice of tricksters.

  • Please search for my response to Violet and others here and see your folly.

  • They “did terrible atrocities in the name of God”? What atrocities? Name them?

    If you are up to it (which I doubt you are) refute:


    I did the homework when I was thinking like you do.

    Do you do any homework, search and study? Or are you always used to slander?

  • “Did you actually say that the RCC did a better job than Jesus Christ and the Apostles? ”

    What utter nonsensical argument. The Church is the body of Christ which existed way before your reformers showed up.

  • Strange. Here are Protestants who would disagree with your heresy, yet they are more interested in arguing over Mary’s perpetual virginity than arguing with your cruddy heretical arguments. This speaks volumes. Good grief. Get out of my falafel stand.

  • Go join Islam then.

  • Jimi, don’t get bipolar on me just because you attend some heretical outfit and I rebuked you. Jesus bloodline comes from David through Mary which I showed you. Do you suppose I just let you flutter your rudder in the direction of the devil and you expect me not to care about you? You’re not glorifying anything but a heresy which I explained to you. Strange how you refuse to even consider or repent of it. Yahweh does not have a “blood line”. This Messianic stuff, ever wonder why 80% of these Messianic groups abandon the Trinity?

    Listen Jimi, I have always tried to shepherd folks and now simply stand by seeing them go into a lions den which you are. Take off hess dark glasses and try to see with the eyes God has given you before He gives you up to become completely blind.

    • Jimi Belton

      Walid why do you pull up a book [2 hour read”] By Dr. MR deHand of moody, a med dr, just explaining the human body and the application of the Sinful nature of Eve and Adam, and every human since has that tainted blood, But Jesus ….Because the miricialous way we were built…..;I hope you will read it, but maybe your pride will not allow that….jb…Go to Moody and ask to read this, book….If it cist a couple $ Send me the bill

      • “maybe your pride will not allow that.”

        Yep. My pride will not allow that. It waits for your’e pride to admit that Yahweh (God the Father) has no blood as you stated.

  • Good grief gataheart. Why are you arguing with Julie when you should be arguing with the other Protestants here. You do not believe in the Trinity. Take that argument with Jimi, Violet and the others. Or is this simply devils narrowing in on saints and waring out the saints? Go ware out your other brethren whom your cult derived from.

  • Why aren’t you arguing with gataheart below. He says “Raphael, did Jesus here claim to be God?” He denies the deity of Christ. Yet here you are arguing over Mary. Strange indeed.

    • Jimi Belton

      Isn’t it brother WALID

      • Jimi Belton

        Brother Walidd I rather not discuss God’s holy Word with a Jehovah’s Witness

        • Comon Jimi. I thought more of you. You say that Yahweh has blood and now you would not rather witness to a JW? Instead you cling to an old heresy? Comon. Who loves who? We love you and you reject.

          • Jimi Belton

            Waled if I were in your shoes i would be a little bit more careful in making fun and jest from a statement about the Blood of Jesus You are making a rather raucus statement about something that i did not sat…BUT WAS THIS NOT THE VERY WAY OF SATAN to mock every word of God that he could…I urge you to be more careful….Pride goes before destruction, and a proud look before a fall…

          • O how you twist Jimi. You said that Yahweh (God the Father) had blood. You blasphemed and now you accuse me of blasphemy? Here is your’e own blapheming words:

            “…Therefore Baby Jesus in the smallest form of humanity fed and grew to birth and the sinful nature of Adam was halted from Mary to the Son of Almighty God…Jesus
            received life from Mary, but his BLOOD-LINE was from Yahvah”

            Yahweh has NO blood line, Yahweh has no blood, the Father in not human. This is heresy.

          • Jimi Belton

            then Jesus was tainted with the sinful blood of Adam….Is that your teaching….Jesus received food and drink from Mary, but poluted tainted blood from Mother Mary was not part of the Pure Jesus…So you figure out where Jesus received pure un pllluted blood to grow to birth on…Give me an answer anywhere but his mother….I have explained so many times, but walid you seen to be a clown really without a clue..so come on walid make a lot of false statments

          • Flame blue

            No, Jesus was begotten not created. He had been given blood to fuel his human body but not Adam’s blood. If only you will understand that, Jimi.

            So, you will say that Mary’s blood had Adam’s “contaminate” in it, but listen up and realise that the Holy Spirit destroyed the contamination by making her holy. Prophets had the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. Yes, they were given Him, because it is Him who prophecies, and does miracles, it only appears to be the human but its God.

            After Penticost the Holy Spirit was given to all disciples of Jesus Christ, at Penticost, and after, and Christians get given Him too, to keep them living holy lives. Before you were Christian you were a sinner but afterwards, you are not, or shouldn’t be, because it is possible not to Sin after you have become a Christian. It is fully possible!

          • Millions of endless discussions, as dust in the wind. Millions concoct hair splitting arguments to sidetrack main issues. Dust particles that some fish bite on wasting precious time.

          • Flame blue

            “Millions of endless discussions, as dust in the wind. Millions concoct hair splitting arguments to sidetrack main issues. Dust particles that fish bite on wasting time” you say. I totally agree with you, and they will do this until the Day of Judgement. But, l myself will not do so!

            Jimi has left your forum now, but he was worth making an effort to educate, and that was all l was doing, was making an effort.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      You and I know why – they would rather lend credence to the JW’s interpretation before they would ever admit or say that Mary is the Mother of God.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    YOU are the one that does NOT know – you have insulted Christ by insulting Mary and St. Joseph – just because protestants have NO regard for celibacy, hence why they have none, doesn’t mean that celibacy isn’t treasured in God’s sight. Apparently you missed the part where Joseph was told that the child was OF THE HOLY SPIRIT – anyone that knows the scriptures knows that the Holy Spirit espoused himself to Mary – and you THINK that Joseph intruded on the bridal chamber of the Holy Spirit?. Maybe you need to read what Jesus and Paul taught about celibates, then tell my why no protestant church has any to offer – and why your church teaches that birth control is OK – it isn’t to God – he slew a man that did such a perverted act.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “they saw the Child with Mary HIS mother…” Matt 2:11; ‘Get up! Take the Child and HIS MOTHER and flee to Egypt.” Matt 2:13; “So Joseph got up and took the Child and HIS MOTHER while it was still night” Matt 2:14; “Get up, take the child and HIS MOTHER and go into the land” Matt 2:20; “So Joseph got up, took the Child and HIS MOTHER, and came into the land of Israel.’ Matt 2:21. Hum – did you fulfill any of these roles Hazel? Did Jesus nurse at your breasts? Did He come from your womb? Were you the Mother standing underneath the Cross? Were you the Mother that told him to make wine? You must have amazingly long arms to reach back that far.
    By the way – Jesus built ONE Church, HIS CHURCH, and it is HIS CHURCH that promulgates doctrine – your church has NO connection to the Church that Christ built – you just make up doctrine based on NOTHING but your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION – which is FORBIDDEN.

    • Jimi Belton

      She was only reading off a verse from the Bible and Julie you went into a very carnal spiel

    • I will be deleting his broken records. He does not answer questions. Until he answers questions I will not put up with repeated statements.

      • Jimi Belton

        before I answer a Question, I like to do proper research…..unlike you and JL

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Explain it.

    • racarrera

      They cower, as usual.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You mean such man made traditions as MEN starting their own churches???

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Per SCRIPTURE – the CHURCH is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, 1 Tim 3:15. What the ignorant masses ignore is that the Church existed long before the BIBLE was Canonized – BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH – speaking of MAN MADE TRADITIONS – why did your man made churches remove 7 BOOKS OF THE BIBLE?

    • WhiteHorse

      Julie – Christ is the church or Bridegroom and the believers on Earth are His bride, I agree with you to some extent, that since Jesus Christ is Alpha Omega, the church pre-existed the Bible and the church as we know it today. Jesus as the CHURCH is the pillar but our tangible proof, since He physically left the earth, for any future age to come is the BIBLE, since we cannot visibly see Christ like those who saw him whilst he walked the Earth. King James Version is the most accurate of Holy Scriptures Old & New Testaments – both Testaments should be read in conjunction and are the absolute God-breathed Words of God – the living Word also known as Jesus Christ. Those other 7 books (written between the period of the Old & New testaments are written by man and have error of some types, even if they are read as historical books. Even history books, regardless of author, publisher will contain some amount of error or omissions to distort truth. Here is the proof: all mainstream Christian denominations stemming from the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant denominations agree on that, therefore God would not permit something sacred to perish. Therefore the 7 books are not sacred. There may be some historical value and that is all. A newspaper article may print an actual event with 99% accuracy of an event but it is not God’s Word but the writings of man.

      • Jimi Belton

        white Horse, one thing i will add, Jesus left this earth but He promised us that he would send the comforter, The Holy Spirit, and on Penticost after his ressuciation, he Filled thousands, and even today, There is times that I can hardly contain the fulness or the Holy Spirit…What other reason would a person accept all this in faith….When you are filled with HIM, You just cannot just sit idle…..Praise Him today….

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The Pope has never said that atheists will go to heaven. What THE CHURCH teaches is that it is God’s will that all men be saved.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    I would turn you to 1 Samuel 31:13 where the Israelites FASTED FOR THE DEAD. I would turn you to 2 Samuel 1:19-27 where David SPEAKS TO DEAD JONATHAN – I would turn you to 2 Tim 1:16-18 where Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus. I would turn you to Acts 9:40-41 where Peter prays for the dead woman Tabitha. Maybe you need to remember that Jesus spoke to the DEAD – “Lazarus, come forth!”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Note that St Luke gives Maryam’s Genealogy,
    traced through Nathan, son of David (v. 31), a line which never sat upon the throne in Jerusalem. St Irenaeus of Lyons (writing ca 180AD) makes the point that St Joseph’s descent through Coniah (Mt 1:11), made him **ineligible** to be the biological father of the Messiah. Jeremiah 22:18 & 24 declare Coniah
    a “disinherited branch” of David; but Nathan’s line is a “new
    shoot” (Netzer) from the stump of Jesse, hewn down by the Babylonians.

    David’s prophecy (Psalm 132:11, in Hebrew) says that the Great One to follow him would be “the fruit of thy belly” (beten = Womb) – i.e., from a Daughter of David.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Please get out of the cult of JW’s – you are nothing but false prophets. NO ANGEL WAS EVER CALLED THE SON OF GOD – now go tell your false interpreters to change Hebrews.1:5. God said He does not CHANGE – so if He is a FATHER, he was ALWAYS A FATHER. Do you get it yet?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    ” I haven’t attacked you personally. Just the RCC.” How nice of you to admit that you attacked Christ’s Church.

  • Joe M

    But those who have seen Jesus has seen God. Did Jesus rebuke Thomas for calling him “my God”, no, he accepted that Thomas was correct that he realised that Jesus is God. Jesus is God, and we know what God is like because of Jesus. We cannot know in any other way!

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Gata – can you tell us the ONLY THING GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE?

  • Joe M

    Can l interject here, Jim. It would be good if you would assume a user name and go to preach to Muslims. You would need to be careful though! Why l say this is there is no point getting worked up about what Roman Catholics think, because they believe Jesus Christ was the Word of God come into flesh, and he lived a sinless, blameless, holy life, did miracles, cured the blind, the sick, walked on water, raised the dead, and he was the Spotless human offering for the salvation of those who believe in him, in what he claimed about himself and their Saviour Lord who was crucified and gave his sinless blood to redeem their silly and sometimes deliberate wilful sins against others and against God. These Roman Catholics believe that Jesus is eternal and came from Heaven and returned to Heaven after his mission, and sent the Holy Spirit, as a companion and advisor to dwell in them. They do accept the Bible and believe Jesus is God. You don’t need to try to save them my friend, because Jesus has saved them, and cleansed them, provided they don’t roll in filth again. This is what you believe too, and nothing more is needed for salvation! I tell you this truth!

    You will find Muslims on topix Islam. You will have as hard a job arguing with them as you have argueing with Roman Catholics, but they are unsaved, and anti-Christs, so give them no excuse to plead ignorance about Jesus, educate them brother?

    • Jimi Belton

      thank you dear friend….It was needed for me to hear what you have spoken….again Thank You…

      • Joe M

        I am glad you found some value in what l said, Jimi.

        Regards Joe M. God bless you.

    • Jimi Belton

      Joe M would you suggest a web site….Thanks man

      • Joe M

        Topix Islam. You can put www before it if you wish. There is a good reason not to use your name but choose a user name. It is tough dealing with muslims, be careful and have good security software. Don’t sign up to the website, there’s no need, because if you sign up your details etc, email address can become visible and they can trace you in face book etc, which you don’t want believe me.

        Some atheists are on the site trying to educate the Muslims but the Muslims don’t listen to a word they say because muslim interest is attacking Christianity and lieing about it to undermine the faith of the Christian. So, you will find them going after you to initially woo you. Muslims will attempt to teach you that Islam has much in common with Christianity. The idea is that you should understand that the Torah came first, the Gospels superseded the Torah and now the Quran came last as the final word of God to supersede the Gospels. They link their religion in perverse ways to the Bible but you need to remember that they have no foundation as Islam does not go back to the Torah or before it, and the Torah is not part of the Quran. The Bible has the Torah attached and we see the Prophets works that do show the coming of Jesus in prophecy. Also know what Muhammad was and how he is the opposite of Jesus Christ. So, be careful brother. But you are protected!

        In the topix forums there is a Christian site known as Topix Christian, you get a lot of atheists attacking there, and muslims too! So, you will be attacked for not supporting the expansion of homosexuality and you will face attacks from ignoramus people who think that science has all the answers even in this time. These people are blind to the reality of what is going on caused by our political leaders linked to Satan.

    • Jimi Belton

      Joe M would you suggest a web site….Thanks man

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Gravity is a force – the Holy Spirit is a divine being.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Praying to/for dead: ELIJAH prayed for THE DEAD – 1 Kings 17:19-22; DAVID prayed to/for THE DEAD – 2 Samuel 1:19-27 (David actually speaks to Jonathan, v.26) PETER prayed for the dead – Acts 9:40-41; PAUL prayed for the dead – 2 Tim 1:16-18. JESUS prayed for the dead, John 11:43: “When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” So much for your false statement that nobody prayed for the dead in the Bible.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “She was chosen because she was Joseph’s fiance. Not for any other reason.” I am truly sorry that your pastor/founder has taught you such terrible falsehoods – you, if you were really familiar with scripture (Jer 22:18, 24) you would know that no man from the line of Coniah could sit on the throne –

    Note that St Luke gives Maryam’s Genealogy, traced through Nathan, son of David (v. 31), a line which never sat upon the
    throne in Jerusalem. St Irenaeus of Lyons (writing ca 180AD) makes the point that St Joseph’s descent through Coniah (Mt 1:11), made him INELIGIBLE to be the biological father of the Messiah. Jeremiah 22:18 & 24 declare Coniah a “disinherited branch” of David; but Nathan’s line is a “new shoot” (Netzer) from the stump of Jesse, hewn down by the Babylonians.

    David’s prophecy (Psalm 132:11, in Hebrew) says that the Great One to follow him would be “the fruit of thy belly” (beten = Womb) – i.e., from a Daughter of David.

  • It matters not what you think of me, what matters is what you think of the Copts who were beheaded by ISIS. Are these according to you “martyrs”? If so, why if not why? Keep in mind, they are Copts and follow apostolic succession theology.

    Have at it.

    A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” – Wisdom from the Church Fathers

  • And you also attacked me with doubts about me being Christian and now you attack her with doubts of being unchristian saying “Hardly Cristian”. You’re frothing at the mouth as if to compare if one does not utter you’re ways as “not being Christian” as if your cut of the true cloth and so all patterns must follow yours. Do me a favor and knock it off.

  • The heresy gets so far that you are now doing a biological analysis of Jesus’ miraculous birth playing God as in a lab trying to dissect the mystery while failing to oodles of historic information on Heresies. The Immaculate Conception isn’t about Mary, it’s about Jesus. Luther and other reformers spoke of her as sinless. So why not take your war to the Protestants?

    Also her virginity throughout her earthly life (a universally accepted belief even among the most radical of Protestant reformers and a teaching taught in the Lutheran Confessions). And her Bodily Assumption as well, similar to Enoch and Elijah. Such teaching was deeply rooted in Christianity.

    You cannot and will not produce one who thinks like you from 70AD to 1500AD. This question alone and you’re inability to answer it should silence your froth about me. Now bugger off.

  • You are becoming steeped into heresy and I do not have time for dealing with your Valentinianism heresy which taught that Holy Spirit deposited the Christ Child in her womb and that Mary was the a surrogate mother, but not truly Christ’s genetic mother. The Apostle Paul refutes this when he writes, “God sent His Son, made of a woman.” Repent or not is you’re choice but I seriously have no time for scoundrels who come in here acting as if they were saints.

  • Are you getting busy with the JW or exclusively the RCC?

    If the issues of Mary is a cult, then you’re reformers are also cults. Have you announced them as such? No.

  • Nonsense. You do not answer anything. I already asked you to name me one Christian who believed the way you do from 70AD to 1500AD. You never could answer and most of your comments are the usual record we heard here a thousand times over.
    Keep it up and out you go. Last warning. I am tired of approving repetitions and cannot even start on all the questions you were asked where you were evasive.

  • Many times we posted negative articles about the Pope to only find out that the source twisted them and we had to bight out tongues. It teaches us how to be careful. So many folks come in here posting this and that about the Pope as if the whole history of the rich Catholic Church rests upon what Pope Francis said here and there. It is the spirit of the accuser I must say. Thanks for your constructive comment saint Apollonia.

  • Julie

    Get a catechism. Every doctrine has its reference to scripture, early church fathers, councils.

  • Chrislam is more problematic for Christians than for Islam. What Warren did was remove any reference of God being the Father of Christ.

    Islam already have denied that God has a Son.

  • Did you know David slept with Bathsheba and Solomon had a thousand concubines. Did you know that you did not answer my question? Go back and see where I had “?” and take care of homework.

  • Its always the case, advise a foolish guest that this is not his home and he opens the refrigerator anyway. Advise a fool and he will reproach you and call you “rude”. If you are a scholar, it doesn’t show. Now, I have been extra patient with you. Enough is enough. For the last time stop opening the refrigerator. This is not your home. And this goes for your buddy above.

    • racarrera

      The professional wrestling wing of pseudo-Christianity is out in full force.

  • “Jesus would have been a girl”? “chromosomes”? You are now analyzing the miracle from your scientific prism and trying to spread a heresy? Jesus was of Mary.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    So people are dead, the live people fast – you can’t connect dots? Did you miss this “They mourned and wept and fasted until evening and his son Jonathan and the people of the Lord and the House of Israel, because they had fallen by the sword.” 2 Sam 1:12. In ALL these verses, you refuse the obvious: DEAD PEOPLE ARE BEING PRAYED FOR.

    • Hazel Waldron

      The ONLY conversation we should have with the dead is to raise them from the dead. Sometimes they spoke to the dead person and sometimes they prayed to God about it. Nowhere else does scripture ok praying to the dead for guidance, gifts, forgiveness etc. The scriptures you have given do NOT stand up to what you are saying when they are read in context. As I said before ‘if you want to command the dead to rise, go right ahead’ otherwise conversing with the dead is forbidden. We can enter into the Throne Room of God through the salvation & justification Jesus has given us and we need no other intercessor than Jesus.

      • Are the saints who are absent from the body, dead?

        Just a Yes or No.

        Please no explanations or rapid machine gunning verses.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You sound terribly lost – I really hope you can recover.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Just how and why do you suppose this happens – you said you don’t have to do penance or fasting – that Jesus saved you – know there is some fire involved in being saved – what’s up?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You still don’t ‘get it’, do you? Joseph did not supply the genetic material for Jesus – Mary did.

    • Jimi Belton


  • Julie

    Finito….was giving you time and your response is the same rejection I see in anti Catholics.

    That is why I am working to get out of trying…and just let you folks hold on to your own…we will all be held accountable before God.

  • Julie

    Obvious response by those who look at Scripture outside of context of its Person and believers.

  • Flame blue

    For some years Walid Shoebat directed this web site, it quarrels with non-RC Christians, and he has a loyal band of Roman Catholics to attack the Christians they call Protestants and heritics. It became an established practice indeed a sport of sorts done in the belief that all Christains have to follow Roman style Christianity. These attacks are a habit now and so they continue.

    Non-Roman Catholics, are coming into the web site forum not to quarrel and argue with Catholics but because Walid Shoebat goes out to churches, mostly not Roman Catholic, and they invite him and welcome him to preach about end time events linked to Islam.

    These Protestant churches are free minded in terms of being inquisitive and respectful of knowledgeable Christians like Mr Shoebat, and they are keen to listen to him, something that he would probably find rare in Roman Catholic Churches of congregants protected by the shepherds who are their priests. In RC churches, the priests like to control everything, and speakers such as Mr Shoebat would be disrespected by the priests.

    Mr Shoebat gives out his website address at these debates, speeches, television chat show events, and he also has utube videos of his opinions, interpretations of scripture etc, and people who are non RC Christians watch them listen to him, like his views, on the whole, and agree with him, which shows that their Christian mindset, is in harmony with him, amazingly, is spite of the fact that they are not Roman Christians. So, they purchase his books, financing in some way his livelihood in the service of God. They become fans, and fans are respectful so they visit his website, naively believing that they will share comments with other Christians particularly people who are concerned about troublesome and violent people who are terrorists and have designs to destroy Christianity and Christians.

    When these increasing numbers of respectful fans of Mr Shoebat and his son Theodore, are attracted to the website, they will be in for a rude awakening because they will find Roman Catholics who view non RC Christians as heritics, and apostates, and are still launching verbal war fare on what they think is the genetic prodigy of Martn Luther whom they hate, even if these so called Protestants are not Luther people, from Luther churches in Germany, but have different religious backgrounds, they will still be hated as if they have stolen Roman Silver or Gold from the Vatican.

    The point being these Roman Catholics in this forum have been stuck in a time warp of hatred which manifests itself in distorting and twisting just about everything the so called Protestant says. This is also caused by their habit of viewing non RC Christians negatively and being allowed to attack them, for some years, and failing to take into account the real reasons why Mr Shoebat is attracting these Protestants to his forum, in these times.

    This is very disappointing for these Christians, who are targeted to account for why they don’t believe in having Mary Statues in their church, and a slightly different view of participating in Communion. Of course, the Protestant answers to justify or state his/her religious beliefs, then finds that they are accused of attacking the Roman Catholics beliefs etc, they have got it down to a fine art honed over the years!

    This leads to the non RC person leaving the site feeling rejected and hated, and resisting the pleasure (for want of a different word ) of reading the books they purchased written by Mr Shoebat, and not wanting to watch his videos anymore!

    I have witnessed many Protestants leave this forum because of the wicked way they were treated and l advise you to take care brother because they like to have a Protestant scape goat, and you are about the only one left on the forum!

    There is little point protesting to Mr Shoebat about this issue because he sees his little flock as innocent lambs under attack from Protestant wolves, and he fails to see their mischief making as the two faced cunning people they are. Some of course, are worse than the others.
    It’s time Mr Shoebat stopped giving talks to Christians who he regards as heritics in their churches, and giving out the address of his website to them, if he can’t train his sheep, well rams actually, about how they need to be gracious to the new fans that he is attracting even though they are not Roman Catholics.

    I hope he sees this feedback and development plan for his future.

    God bless you sister.

    • Flame,

      It doesn’t do any good to post you’re long detailed view of me on some lonely comment section here. Please bless me with your slander and spread this out as far as you can on other blogs.

      Now run and do what you do, but you must do it quickly.

  • Julie

    And Christ instituted the sacrament of penance. He absolves all sin, but we are to do penance..in other words, we are to be and do Christ more.

    We cannot judge someone by exterior. Never. But we do by their fruits, and being in Christ’s Church and confessing our sins to the Lord through His ministers is doing what He desires.

  • Julie

    Your comments to me were as such. Very judgmental and typical misconception. Such misconception and misrepresentations are indeed cultish because as you stated, you refuse to find out what we truly believe.

    I recommended our catechism that shows every doctrine and its foot note to how we believe…from sacred scripture, the apostles and ministers, each belief building on the other.

    Another is that any theologian is held accountable and must forward his reflections to the Church….not some little power clique….but those in authority who likewise are referencing the foundation of our faith.

  • Julie

    Get a catechism. It shows all the references to scripture and the action and traditions the apostles gave us.

    Likewise our faith is not book based but based on human beings in salvatoin history, faith lived out…so you also need to study church history and you can do that with the catechism by looking at references and then looking up the Councils for more understanding.

    There is nothing man made or shady. If it were, the Universal Church would have collapsed. But it does not because it is centered on Christ Himself.

    He said the wheat would always have the chaff…a test for us, and a persecution for us by the world when we are stereotyped by those who do bad in the Church.

    Walid now has an extensive essay on the anti Christ and Islam is its religion. Look at the early churches in Asia Minor and what happened to them. CBN had a program on the altar of Zeus, the seat or throne of Satan in revelations at Pergamum, that the Nazis had dismantled and taken to Germany. Read about bishop Patimos who was martyred and prayed for the perseverance of the Christians’ faith, the only bishop mentioned by Christ through St. John in Revelations.

    An Assyrian Christian shared with us his grandfather said the anti Christ would come from Northern Turkey, which took over the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    There are 5 patriarchs: Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople. Founded by the apostles.

  • Where will the Christian be while these works are being burned up? On earth? In heaven? No unclean can enter heaven. Where are they being cleaned up? In that like a fiery shower where all these deeds are being burned up?

  • Is that a booklet you just typed up here? I don’t see a single verse to back up each line you wrote.

  • “1 Cor 5;5. When we die we are absent from the body present with the Lord”

    So saints are alive and well?


    • Jimi Belton

      The true Child of God is also refurred as Saints, will be in the very presence of Jesus at his or her last breath.

  • Julie

    I can debate but refuse.

    God will absolve any sin. But the dimension is that one must confess sacramently to receive the Eucharist, His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

    St. Paul spoke of all of us having to go through the fire to purge us of all inclination or desire to sin. The Orthodox don’t see purgatory as a torture chamber as cultures that drew on the fiction of Dante’s Inferno.

    And when we receive the Eucharist, we are living already in Eternal Life and so for us, death is merely a passing door. And Revelations refers to the saints gathered around the altar of the Lord who pray for us.

    You should study the Mass. It is the greatest power on earth. Good source, former Protestant, Dr Scot Hahn, ‘The Lamb’s Supper’. The Mass’s roots are biblical.

  • Julie

    Again yours came up.

    Christ did not err and leave us without proper theology and practice until Martin Luther….otherwise this is parallel to Mormon belief that true faith did not come until Joseph Smith, etc etc etc.

  • Rapheal Sebastian

    So I guess the people they were teaching did ask, book, chapter and verse please too then.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    We are admonished throughout the entirety of scripture to do penance. I will ask YOU, since no protestant I have asked has answered, please explain 1 Peter 4:8 “Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because LOVE COVERS A MULTITUDE OF SINS.” If you can explain this verse, which is contrary to the false theology that you espouse, you will be the first to do so.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Pure ignorance – guess you are totally oblivious to Galatians 4:4 “Made of a WOMAN” – can you tell us how the Holy Spirit has genetic material?

  • Julie

    Sorry mam. The Lord did not institute His Church in America, bible alone. Luther took out 7 books of Scripture, destroyed the priesthood and subsequently the Bread of Life Who is the interpreter of Scripture.

    You cannot have Eucharist without ordained priesthood.

    I have done 5th year study at secular university and we know very well written text is open to personal interpretation.

    Go down any street and see how many churches there are refusing to come together in the Lord.

    He established His Church on Peter and the apostles and the ecclesial foundation is found in the 5 patriarchs: Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople, all founded by the apostles and bishops chosen by them in the continuity of faith not broken for 2000 years based on His Word and the tradition of faith in which to live out our faith.

    The true faith did not come with Martin Luther in Germany 1500 years later. Your concept of God is very different and not based on the truth of Christ.

  • Julie

    Sorry, your belief system began with Luther.

    You refuse to find out what Catholics truly believe.

    So I am not intending to respond to such anymore.

  • DanlBoone

    that’s absolute insanity. God has no “mother”..

    it’s goddess worship, no matter how you try to spin it.

  • Jimi Belton

    Hazel I have prayed long and in truth through the power of the Holy Spirit, and It is my belief that we are just wastingour time…..This disgussion when it gets to leaning on the truth, and waled and Julie, and some others immediately start defending their positions withnasty slurs about my intelligence, or some other Christian how he spells a word….Walid, I respect you to the point that you can carry on a dialog without offencive,,,Seems that is your mannor…I hnow in whom I have Given my all, because He gave His all for me….and you seem so eager to put a Christian brother down so quick…..When you once made the ststement that you ‘liked me, JIJI’…well that is a sure way to cultivate a follower, one who it weak in their faith,,,,I prayed a lot about if I should get into yourwild walid web site….and as much as i love to discuee the gret things God has done in my lofe, i sense you are sileently moking them….Yes Walid I do have the Holy Spirit
    indewlling in this tabernacle made of dust and clay…Walid when the Lord sends a true Child of His Kingdom to you, such as this dearest Hazel, ”My spirit was one with hers immediately”Waled you went to the Catholic rof what? fellowship, friendship, worship of Jesus….Why d`t you seek the Lord aboyt what I said about Jesus and the Way Holy JehovahCreated the human and their ability to have a fetal infant in her tummy and none of the mothers blood will be tranfformed into the infant…Dr. .M.R.De Hand wrote an excellient book about this from the Moody Bible Instute…Called, ”the power of the Blood…Read it and you may noy be so hasty to moke ne so often….Waled I do love you like a brother in Christ, but yyou seem to enjoy the praises of man more than the QUITE praises of Jehovah….May his presense be here in this letter sent with real christian love

    • Jimmi,

      Where does it say in the Scriptures that Jesus’ blood was Yahweh’s own blood?

      Thats number one.

      Number two: you’re friend Hazel wrote a slanderous remarks saying that the bombing I did in Bethlehem Manger square was not true. I sent her a link from the U.N. she never apologized for her slander. Here is the link:


      (search for “Manger Square” where Jesus was born. I threw a bomb there.

      And here is the message I sent her:

      “This debunks CNN, Jerusalem Post and others who said that “there was never a bombing on manger square”. This, especially that the U.S. reported from the Jerusalem Post in 1977, the very newspaper that said there was never a bombing. In fact, the Jerusalem Post for their mistake allowed me an entire rebuttal to be published on their paper.

      Secondly, I must have we been so good to infiltrate the FBI? The government disclosed a secure secret event and broke protocol which they were never to state anything that was told in the lecture. We never asked for more media publicity and its a win for us and a loss for national security.

      Now, to you, you are beginning to sound like a Muslim slanderer. Please, you either apologize or leave my blog once and for all.

      Its your choice to do the right thing.”

      Did she do the right thing? No. And now you seem to want to tell me that she is a “wonderful person”?

      Jimi, where on other major blogs do you find the person running it even communicate with folks much put up with continual slander, ridicule and such. And then to have to put up with folks who accuse us of what they themselves are guilty of? Enough said.

      • Jimi Belton

        I certainly did not side with this woman on saying you were aliar ….And what ever has been done in the past is surely no cause to Glory, we can glory in our salvation”’Do you want me to leave your site,…I will if you say….But if I am allowed to continue to stay I will defend sound doctrine with all my heart Tkank you

    • Jimi Belton

      I t was not Marys`s blood….I will go back [in my tine] andand I e=will versesbe through with your hereisy…

  • Jimi Belton

    walid is open to any and all offerings for his ministry to”save the christians”’I hope youdo well.. but walid I do Send money, Large amounts to help in Africa, Jerusalen, AND OTHER cHRISTIAN MINISTRIES…..wALID i OFTEN SEE THE EXACT EZPENDURES OF THESE CHRISTIAN oRG`S. AND ONE OF OUR fAV. IS BiLLY GRAHAM….cAN YOU SAY ANYTHING EVIL ABOUT THIS COMMENT….jIMI

  • Not all the crusades failed Violet. We had Protestant hero, Sir Allenby who defeated the Ottomans and took Jerusalem and decided to walk on foot instead of a horse. I suggest you read here:


    As far as aiding our fellow brethren, the best way is to find the victims yourself and help. However, we do this work extensively through Rescue Christians. We have spent ample time to find organizations that do this and failed to find any. So we started one ourselves where we rescued thousands out of slavery. Serious donors are welcome to examine the records.

    Thanks for inquiring and God bless you for it.

  • Julie

    Please go.

  • Forget Catholics Aaron, what about Copts, Serbians, Eastern Orthodox … are they too pagan and only your type is not?

    Yes or No please, no need for long essays.

    I also studied your Easter “Ishtar” stuff. Tell me, was Samriamis and Nimrod in the same historical period? Can you research it and get back to me?

  • Aaron Kelly

    a LOT of deleted comments Walid, I now see you just delete anyone who doesn’t agree with your views… It’s sad

    • Sure did and I am proud to delete your nonsense comments that say that the Catholic Church is “Pagan” without supporting your view with historic reference. This is after all my blog. How would you like it if I came to your home and positioned Icons of Jesus, Mary and Joseph and Saints all over your living room and bedroom?

      I asked you a simple question: show us from history where Samriamis and Nimrod where in the same timeline, can you? You can’t and you won’t. All this crap you people belabor is historic nonsense.

      You’re whole position is based on this fallacy which a kindergarten history student can tell is all false.

  • Jimi Belton

    Thank you dear friend….The truth is a welcome thing this day and age, and you have presented it straight…Walid is the twister in some of my comments….But i will live to make another {Catholic} into a true Born again Christian….Trust me Brother, False cannot make a permanent nest upon my head….Thank you dear Friend..

    • Flame blue

      Hello Jimi. It was some time since l wrote that post to you so l was surprised to hear from you at this time, but l welcome your reply.

      I have had apoligies from Walid since that point, and he says he appreciates the truth l present.

      I loathe Christian apon Christian attacks simply because of a few differences between them. It is shocking to me. In Britain, the Roman Catholics and Protestants have united in Christ. Recently, we had Roman Catholics attending and participating in a World Prayer Day Service at our church. And yesterday, one of our congregation brought a Roman Catholic friend to our quiet mid week service, and she is going to attend other events at our church in the future. We have no intention of converting her to Protestantism, and she has no interest in being unfaithful to Roman Catholicism. She explained that she enjoys going to other churches and experiencing the difference in worship styles.

      • This guy was insisting that the blood of Jesus did not come from Mary and that Yahweh our father had his own blood which He gave to Jesus. He made the Father as if He was human and you think this sorry heretic is here to fight deception and find unity? No. He is here to sell heresy Flame.

        • Flame blue

          Thanks for the information Walid. He has got it wrong but it’s a human error, and our Lord will forgive him, for if l can pity him then God is certainly going to be compassionate to a greater degree than me.

          Poor Jimi, he’s come back to your website and apologised and asked you to let him stay, and you will, of course. This Jimi needs gentle handling Walid. If he misunderstands just correct him gently. It’s your job to explain matters to those who don’t know or understand. Is this not your position, you know it is! What’s the point of Jesus putting a lampstand emitting his holy light to you on his Bible, if you will not take some of that light and help Jimi? So, that’s the truth, Walid. God doesn’t take offence easily, nor must we, woe to us if Jesus took offence at us, because he could easily find fault with our imperfections and errors!

        • Flame blue

          Hi Walid, l have sent you this worship song for Easter coming.


      • Jimi Belton

        Thank you Brother in Christ…It is a lonley path as I draw closer to my Lord,..And as the years continue to spin off for me…..I have the discernment of True and false, as do most true Christians, I am not sad about the treatment I receive here, It is only the NORMAL treatment that anyone will receive when they take a stand for sound doctrine….I know well that there are people on this site that will mix any false doctrine into a portion of the actual truth, But That is the very thing that we were warned about in Rev. 2; v.14, Baalem, and the doctrine of the Nicolations.The first 3 chapters of Rev. speaks to the 7 churches of Asia…and Brother in every congregatation of anyone that calls himself a Christian, anywhere on this earth is represented in these 7 churches of Asia….This has been on my heart for many years now, where do I stand in each of these 7 churches, Do I hate the Things that Gd hates, and do I love the things that He loves…And to stand firm against the doctrine of Baalem and the Nicolations, I pray that I will be found true…I know that I could compromise my stance and be the best of pals with J.L. and her kindred spirits, but I will suffer without the Gate for Christ sake…When we are being praised by men then we better be careful, that is what our flesh wants more than anything ,. The approval of man….That is just what Satan wants also….BTW Blue, after the 3rd Chp. of Rev, you will not see the ‘Church’ mentioned again….Please examine the 7 churches of Asia . Amen…

        • Flame blue

          Hello Jimi,

          Christians need to work together as a team, and remember always that Jesus is our leader and God.

          No doubt the errors that Christians commit; the vanities, arrogance, boasting, harsh judgments, pride, are all represented within the 7 churches of Asia Minor. Humans are not perfect. Jesus desires to perfect us, but what is not good must be cut off. Nothing spiritually bad will ever enter heaven.

          We can only have sound doctrine through Jesus, not from our own abilities. We need to know that when we read our Bibles certain points, passages, of scripture speak to us, because God’s Word is living Word. All we can do or should do, is open ourselves to his Word, and God whispers personal words to us, for his purpose.

          Truth is Jimi, we must remember that we are privileged to be made by God to be flowers on a dung hill instead of maggots. Should a rose shout to a daffodil that it is a better flower, better looking, nicer smelling, surely not?

          Here is my assessment, you are a flower on a dung hill, not a maggot, and Walid too is a flower on the same dung hill. I too, l am a wild rose on the dung hill! That’s it, it’s really not complicated! Thank God we are not maggots, because they are a lower form of life!

          I hope you understand what l have said?

          Blessings to you.

          • Jimi Belton

            Thank you

    • “Walid is a twister …” and all sorts of slanders coming out of your mouth Jimi.

      And then you say “But i will live to make another {Catholic} into a true Born again Christian”

      So what you are saying here is that I should respect you for this and allow you to sheep steal on my blog? I pointed your heresy and you are upset. You said that the blood of Jesus was not from His mother. Devils. Nothing but devils. Beat it Jimi. Go sell your wares somewhere else.

  • racarrera

    Maybe because Julie is right, and weird people like you clutch onto conspiracy theories.

  • The topic was The Mother of God and not the Septuagint. A heretic always never address the topic and always changes the subject. Only a heretic believes that the seven books were man made, they were used by Jesus.

    If you are up to refuting go ahead, the proper place to refute the seven books is here:


    But I guarantee you will not refute anything since your type has been coming in here and throwing a brick and then leaving as soon as they break glass. You are just another mouth with no action. As far as your King James Only. How about the Hebrew and Greek. This is the best source.

  • WhiteHorse

    Friends, I am no Bible scholar, but here is my interpretation of Psalm 132.”Arise, LORD, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.” People are crying to the Lord Sabbath who is GOD also known as JESUS CHRIST to return to earth on the last day, destroying satan and all evil people, ant then to rest with us for eternity. Currently, Christians are working harshly to defend our faith, be missionaries and ambassadors for the Word of God and Christ’s truth in a God-forsaken world completely engulfed in evil and immortality and lies and destruction – our risks and stakes are high even unto death and with risk of losing our salvation if we succumb to temptation or inability to withstand the torture and turn against our belief in Christ. The arc symbolizes safety or haven (Noah’s arc) or the arc of the covenant in the temple, a safety vessel. There is no other safety vessel that can carry us through tribulation, famine, floods and wars against the flesh, principalities of the air and ruthless world leaders, religious or political other than Lord Jesus Christ himself. All Scripture needs to be interpreted in context and in juxtaposition to historical background or content too, to some extent.

  • Julie LaBrecque was in the hospital and your insults are coming through wide and clear. It is your comments that are not worth reading that I have to approve.

  • “she is deliberately trying to confuse the masses the way the serpent tried to confuse Eve with half truths”

    You feel compassion for no body. I’ve seen your type come in and get out by the hundreds. She does not need your searching or your opinion. Your not the person worth while her time or effort. Go teach yourself and never talk about her negatively the way you do. Just mind your own business. I don’t like your kind around here. In other words, just get lost.

  • Your’e so full of it. You slander and sin more than anyone I review on this blog. Just get lost. Troll.

  • Dan Baxley

    Hum, very good Walid — good at covering up the base question as to by Catholics Worship Mary — we are not talking about how honor Mary is to be, but that she is worshiped by the Church above the Christ. I have a Roman Catholic Cataclysm where we find Mary referred to as the Queen of Heaven but best of all the Mary the Church worships is nothing like the Mary you document — not at all. The Mary of the Roman Doctrine and one that leads to the worship of the Roman Mary is that doctrine of the Immaculate Conception — the teaching that the Roman Mary was born sinless before YaHshua. This worship, of course, leads to and is encourages the petitioning of the Roman Mary to intercede for the sinner –hum, that is something our Savior is to do, not Mary. There is not biblical grounds for worshiping Mary nor for praying to her. While your article is pretty through concerning the virgin birth, the Mother Mary of our Lord was not Eve and you being a student in prophecy understand this. I would advise anyone, Roman Catholic or not, get you hands on “Catechism of the Catholic Church” and read it for yourself. Lots of good info and revelation. Also, I use the Hebrew Birth Name of our Savior, and I am not a Judizer, as you define those seeking to restore the Old Covenant — that would not be me, but then I would never kneel down before a stone statue and kiss it either — and will not pray to the Queen of Heaven, ever — read the following and notice the mentioning of the Queen of Heaven (v.17), and it is not the Mother of YaHshua the people are burning incense to —

    (Jer 44:15) Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

    (Jer 44:16) As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of YHWH, we will not hearken unto thee.

    (Jer 44:17) But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

    • “YaHshua”

      First learn how to spell His name before you enter into any discussion.

      And what do we see today come out of the Hebrew Roots Movement? Millions today say that using the English name “Jesus” is “improper”. They suggest you use Yeshua instead. For Christians to call the Savior Yeshua including the use of the Hebrew version of the Old Testament is absolutely wrong.

      Surprised? Don’t be. Fact is, that by the time you read the name Yeshua, as you are doing here using English letters, you have 100% already mispronounced the name of the Savior. Unless one speaks ancient Hebrew, the Hebrew name ישוע can never be pronounced as Yeshua (Ya-shu-wah) which sounds more like Chinese, not Hebrew.

      These who swallowed the bait, hook line and sinker, do not know that the use of Yeshua as a name for the Savior is an evolved pronunciation that came from English speaking Messianic followers who miserably failed to properly pronounce Hebrew. First of all, the ending in the name Yeshua (what sounds like “ua” or “oowah”) is an American attempt that mispronounce the last Hebrew letter in the name. The last letter is aiyn (ע), a rough, guttural sound not found in Greek or English.

      Millions of poor souls are duping themselves. They do not even realize that the Hebrew letter aiyn does not even exist in English and is never pronounced with the “oowah” sounding. In the ancient Hebrew world the letter aiyn just as the Semitic letters Khaf and Cheit are extremely difficult for westerners to pronounce.

      Most people (including even Jews) only pronounce the Hebrew letter ayin as a glottal stop if at all, but when ayin is pronounced properly in some Hebrew accents (i.e. Mizrachi, Sephardic) the consonant is pronounced equally no matter where it occurs in the word. In ancient Hebrew it was indeed pronounced more “heavily” while modern Hebrew has slowly rejected this pronunciation (because they simply could not do it) and evolved when the European immigrants who revived Hebrew used sounds they knew from German or Russian, so they didn’t vocalize the Hebrew letter aiyn since they too, like the English speaking world could not do it.

      I should know this subject on how to pronounce the Hebrew since it was Eliezer Ben-Yehuda who was the renovator of the Hebrew language for the state of Israel and his grandson, Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yehuda is a friend of mine. His grandfather came from the West. Eliezer and I had such discussions on the pronunciation of David, which most do not even know, should be more correctly pronounced as Dāwīḏ as we said it in Bethlehem. Anyone could consult these sages of the Hebrew language and see that we are correct.

      Originally the aiyn was pronounced more like the other Semitic languages. In fact all cases of Hebrew phonemes ended up as allophones which wasn’t the case in ancient Hebrew. Ask most Jews and they will tell you that a lot of these traditions of Hebrew pronunciation are disappearing or have already disappeared because most Jews now learn and use modern Israeli pronunciation even in religious contexts.

      Another fact is the predominance of Arabic as the spoken language that influenced and helped preserve the sound of ayin among Mizrahi Jews who correctly insist that it is European influence that resulted in its loss.

      While everything I wrote so far about pronouncing Yeshua is an issue of semantics and nothing more, the question then is: why then object on semantics when English speaking folk say “Jesus” while the Messianic persist on the wrong pronunciation Ya-shu-whaa? The “oowah” sound is nothing like the sound of “aiyn” just as much as the sound of “Je” is unlike the sound of “Ya”.

      Why all this hair-splitting gymnastics when even in the Septuagint and other Greek-language Jewish texts, such as the writings of Josephus and Philo of Alexandria use the Greek Ἰησοῦς Iēsoûs which was the standard Koine Greek form used to translate both of the Hebrew names: Yehoshua and Yeshua?

      Greek Ἰησοῦς or Iēsoûs is also used to represent the name of Joshua son of Nun in the New Testament passages Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8. (It was even used in the Septuagint to translate the name Hoshea in one of the three verses where this referred to Joshua the son of Nun—Deut. 32:44.) So if the Almighty cared so much about how we pronounce a name, why is it that two of these men (Joshua the son of Nun and Joshua the High Priest) are mentioned in other books of the Hebrew Bible where they are instead called Yehoshua?

      So to use Yehoshua, Yeshua or the Aramaic Eashoa’ M’sheekha or the Arabic Yesu‘ or the Spanish Jesus which is pronounced Hesus or the English Jesus … is all the same to God who never once said that the “saved” can only enter through the gate of “proper pronunciation”.

  • Jimi Belton

    That was probably slipped into the scriptures, by martin luther…..just kidding

  • Jimi Belton

    I cannot agree with you that Jesus Blood cane from Mary….Mary was non other but a poor young virgin committed to be married to Joseph….Mary was of the lost humanity from the fall of Adam and Eve, and she needed the her Messiah to save her sinful soul just as every other human in history…

    • Flame blue

      Jimi, Mary was a Prophet, or if you prefer to say “Prophetess”, but that’s her status, nothing less. That good and excellent Prophet did her mission to the satisfaction of God. Mary was as holy through the Holy Spirit ( given to God’s prophets before Pentecost) as any of God’s prophets.

      True there was only one who never ever sinned and that was Mary’s human son Jesus, who was ruled entirely by Yahweh in him.

      Jimi, you will not overturn Roman Catholic’s adoration for Mary, you cannot ever achieve that! Listen up friend, don’t belittle Mary, she was not a little girl dope used by God, but that’s the impression you are giving. She knew her status, even if the World didn’t know it. Just as you know your status and l know mine, we know what and who we are, Mary knew who and what she was!

      God is not jealous of those he subsumes, He is not! Why would He be, so why would He resent Mary’s status in the eyes of Romans? Don’t worry, friend, calm down!

      Jesus Christ had human blood, Jimi, he was not created in the way that humans are, but he had flesh, bones, blood, pain receptors, like all humans because he was fully human, but begotten not created. He had holy blood because He never ever sinned! That’s how it was Jimi. He had the same blood as Adam, but Adam accepted sin, and tainted us by that act. However, Adam’s blood would have looked the same after contamination as it did prior to it because he committed spiritual sin as the spiritual prompts the physical to sin.

      God reset the clock, and the Holy Spirit can overcome Satan and we all have the opportunity to accept the antidote to the poison of Satan, because of the work of Jesus Christ. His mission as God and man, and God with man was fullfilled. God is now with us, we are merged, we are saved as long as we remain Christians, and intend to remain God’s children, worthy of his name!

  • Jimi Belton

    Amen, Brother in Christ, my soul rejoices and heaven claps and cheers for you….

  • Jimi Belton

    Greasing the wallet for many tv ‘preachers’ means nothing, just get my book and give me a big fat check…Flame, Just ignore me, as i can and have fought satan in his stronghold…I am not moved

    • Flame blue

      No, l won’t ignore you.

      Who do you think that you are fighting? Does God fight against himself? So, you may say that He fights against Satan and you are doing his will by fighting Walid. However, do the maths Jimi, is it just you that has the ability to discern that Walid is not of God?

      Does that mean you are saying, you have the Holy Spirit and can discern but l don’t have him and can’t discern that Walid is a bad one? See, the problem there?

      I am not judging you bad, just confused. You are confused! Walid also has a right to eat and keep a roof over his head, in the service of Jesus Christ. He doesn’t get big fat cheques. He’s a genuine spirit filled Christian, that’s my discernment. You can share scripture and illuminate it through Jesus using you but where in scripture does it say that you should argue over scripture and its meaning and think you know everything and become unpleasant in the service of God?

      We know in part about God, we don’t know how He fully works, we don’t fully know his whole mind. We only know what God shows us and tells us. We must be humble!

      • “These Protestant churches are free minded in terms of being inquisitive and respectful of knowledgeable Christians like Mr Shoebat, and they are keen to listen to him, something that he would probably find rare in Roman Catholic Churches of congregants protected by the shepherds who are their priests.”

        This is not true Flame.

        Your analysis is speculative and is using more conjecture than fact. I believe in open discussion, gloves off, let the chips fall where they fall. I believe in freedom to express and I do not like keeping quite for the sake of unity. Jesus came to bring a sword and divide. Jesus did not come for divisiveness. One needs to know the difference. If you notice, I respect and allow your critiques. What I do not like is heresy. When Jimi spreads heresy I intervene. His view of Christ having the blood of Yahweh is way out in the devil’s camp, so I cast him out. You do not express such outlandish heresies.

        • Flame blue

          You are quoting my post from a few months back, but l thought we made up since that point. The post l wrote recently to Jimi, is actually in support of you, and critical of Jimi’s view point.

          In any case, l watched your utube videos when you were speaking in those Protestant churches that you were invited to speak in, and you were respected. Certainly, l don’t know if they biffed you on the nose after your speech and kicked you out the door, but l doubt they did that!

          Jesus divides those who don’t believe in him form those who do believe in him. He didn’t come to divide those who believe in his name, his Lordship, from each other. Though Jesus has sheep in different fields, they are still his sheep, and in the end all Christians will stand united. Jesus promises this. Scriptures starting around John 10 verse 3 and beyond. He is the Good Shepherd, read on to verse 16 ” l have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

          • The “other sheep” are the gentiles, not Luther’s.

            Jesus divides on all sorts of issue, issues that you say we should suppress for the sake of “unity”.

          • Flame blue

            You don’t know what other sheep he’s talking about, Walid. I am not Lutherian.

            There was a Lutherian church in Germany, and an imam was invited to say Islamic prayers in it. One of the Christian woman shouted out when he started praying, and she said ” this is the Church of Jesus Christ who’s Lord, l break this curse”. She was escorted out, but the imam was allowed to stay, but they threw the Christian out. Clearly, she is not of his ilk, and l believe she belongs to Jesus, but maybe you don’t believe it. I know that demonic work is being put in place, by misguided or wicked people, and l don’t dispute that point.

            How are the Roman Catholics going to fight against the anti-Christ, if they don’t unite with the non Roman Catholics?

            I don’t believe in unity at all costs, but you think Jimi is a heritic and he thinks you are a heritic. Who would want to be peace-maker in the middle of your dispute? Yet, admit it, l supported you and told him to stop it. I didn’t tell you to behave yet you are talking to me as if l did,that’s what l don’t understand? You have basically said, you tolerate me because l don’t express outlandish heresies.

            I can’t help how you perceive me in my Christianity. Same as my aunt who is Roman Catholic, who warned me to take care as l walked home on a dark night because there was attacks going on her neighbourhood. I replied that l wasn’t alone and she replied ” your on your own” and l said ” No, l have Jesus with me”. She then accused me of blasphemy! I can’t help how l am! And she was offended!

            Certainly, l don’t fully understand Roman Catholic theology, but l try to take care and not cause offence. Sorry, if you are offended.

            There are things l don’t understand, and when l think of Jesus getting praised and people waving palm leaves, and crowds praising him, as he rode on a donkey through Jerusalem, yet a few days later, there were crowds shouting for his death, l think ” people can be so fickle”.

          • “I can’t help how you perceive me in my Christianity.”

            Always trying to paint me as if I perceive you in certain ways. I don’t. I don’t even know all what you believe exactly. You could have told me before but I deal with so many comments I forget.

            As far as that jerk. You know well the man was spewing heresies and he has been here for months doing this, so I finally had to get rid of the heretic and now we are arguing over something I am not sure what it is. What was I suppose to do, entertain the idea that Yahweh has “blood” and He “passed it to Jesus”? Give me a break.

            You said:

            “I don’t believe in unity at all costs, but you think Jimi is a heretic and he thinks you are a heritic. Who would want to be peace-maker in the middle of your dispute? Yet, admit it, l supported you and told him to stop it.”

            Well thanks for the support Flame. I appreciate it.

            There is really no “peace-making” with these.

            Eventually World War III will break out and there will be mass killing of saint and heretics just as it was in the time of the Maccabees. It always ends up this way.

            Until then, we tolerate heretics, and entertain them until they go too far and then we ban them from our midst.

            It is really cut and dry and it doesn’t take so many American style words to argue over.

            Roger and out.

          • Flame blue

            Well, l am not taking issue with your dealings with Jimi. I took issue with his dealings with you, and l know he felt down about that! I hope he’s ok though because l think he’s sad and has problems. That’s what my instincts tell me.

            Over and out, Walid. I did send you a great Easter hymn in one of my posts, but you have no time to listen to it, l guess.

          • Sorry Flame, must have missed the hymn, I will hunt for it. As far as Jimmi, yes he had issues, but he was rather stubborn when someone clearly tells him that Yahweh has no blood. He tends to be cultic.

          • Flame blue

            I think l read something a while ago, some silly Christians, saying Jesus had no gene pool damage because his blood came from Father God, and the blood comes from the Father not the mother( meaning Mary didn’t give Jesus gene pool damage). Jimi must be in that cult, poor soul! It’s shocking, many times, l just shake my head. It’s pitiful ! I don’t know what to say when l hear this, but they are confused, God does pity their little minds, for sure.

          • Love your peacemaking, so don’t get me wrong. It was that me and Jimmi are not equally yoked. Had it been the case, I love peace and your soft tone helps.

          • Flame blue

            Thank you. May we have peace for all our lives, true peace is bliss. Peace to you and yours!

          • Didn’t look at the date Flame. Please forgive.

          • Flame blue

            Of course, l forgive you. No problem Walid.

  • Sorry your comment got deleted. I brought it back.

  • Shannon Courtney

    Can someone tell me of a good book to read on “Mary”. So, far I have watch a video by “Symbolon” Lighthouse Catholic Media.org

  • Flame blue

    Hi Jimi, nice to hear from you. I hope you have been in good health.

    I dislike when Christians spar with each other, which is different from debating with each other on certain scriptural areas.

    Really, if a Christian’s salvation comes through understanding scripture in every detail then most Christains are doomed. Truly, Jesus is our salvation because we believe in his truth, that he is the truth, and has given himself as our redemption offering. That means we accept that Jesus was crucified, died, and was risen from death and defeated death and Satan. That’s why we will not face death, and we don’t offend God by breaking his Commandments by following a wicked lifestyle.

    Having good knowledge of scriptures in addition to core beliefs and knowledge is good because it assists us to know that Satan lurks looking to devour. It is helpful to have good knowledge of the Bible, but it is not essential beyond the core beliefs.

    It is easy to prove that we dont need to agree totally with each other as to what scripture means. If we need to bow to the comprehension of scripture within one particular branch of Christianty, in the nity critty, then the simple minded are doomed, those who just can’t comprehend and remember scriptures in depth. However, all God requests is that we believe as like little children who cannot understand scriptures, in the way adults do arrogantly arguing with their brethren over the meaning of scriptures., indeed telling their brethren that they are not saved because they don’t do this, that and the other. We know that God even says that He chooses/ uses the simple to shame the wise.

    There are many times, l just leave another Christian’s understanding alone, let them arrogantly pontificate when l know that their Church has taught them something and they are not going to shift their opinion for me. I know that the core beliefs of Christian Faith, their belief in Jesus is all that is needed to save them, why then argue about their scriptural beliefs in terms of differences between my branch of Christianty and theirs? No point, Jimi. Peacefulness and Love is great, greater than animosity and arguements.

    Don’t upset yourself friend. Walid is a worthy man of God, he’s on God’s side, and l love those who serve my God. Like yourself Jimi. God bless you.

  • Flame blue

    Hi Jimi, hope all is well for you. Glad to know you have comfort in the Lord’s Word!

    God bless you.