Why Catholics Having Icons Is RIGHT, And Evangelicals Not Having Icons Is WRONG

By Walid Shoebat

When I first attended church they told me that when it comes to church, that we needed to follow the Book of Acts model. I began to ask myself, what was the church like that was described in Acts? What was the church that Peter and Paul established in Rome like? Did they have incense and icons, liturgy or hymnal books?

Prior to my conversion to Christianity, when I was still Muslim, my Catholic wife Maria insisted to go to church since she was Catholic to Saint Francis de Assisi in Concord, California—I would insist that while she went to church that I would wait for her in the back with both kids, of course, lest they contracted the Catholic plague.

And while she was worshipping, I would have the kids learn some Palestinian style stone throwing at the statues of Mary and Joseph in the back as these were the right size for Palestinian style target practice.

What Maria wasn’t aware of was that I was training our children to be iconoclast.

Until she caught us on one fateful Sunday, red handed, the target practice was all over. Maria never understood why I hated these statues.

But then when I became Christian, I talked Maria into leaving St. Francis since I was more comfortable attending a Baptist church in which they had no icons. Later I began to ask myself; did my hatred for icons stem from my new faith in Christ, or was it reminiscing my clinging to Islam?

But as I researched the oldest Christians and their churches from the first century to the fourth, they presented a problem since all these churches used icons and incense. They all (even including Jesus and the apostles) used the Deuterocanonical books that are in Catholic bibles. They all had priests, altars, images and saints.

Mosaic on the floor of an early Christian church within the Roman army fortress at Megiddo (241 AD)

Mosaic on the floor of an early Christian church within the Roman army fortress at Megiddo (241 AD)

As I shared my findings, it was too difficult to believe by my evangelical brethren. Of course, my friends never examined archeology, history and even the Bible itself to see if Icons were biblical or not.

The first question I asked myself after I did my discoveries was: Is God an iconoclast?

Solomon after all “made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.” (I Kings 6:23)

I asked myself if icons were such a problem, then why do we I find “the brazen serpent” which God commanded Moses to make, (Numbers 21:8-9) and the golden Cherubim and Seraphim, which were purely an ornament in the figured fashion of the ark.

Archeology, one of my interests, provides ample evidence. The image of Jonah and the fish was a Christian image that with several crosses cut into the walls in first century catacombs.

There is an abundance of evidence that the early Christians during Acts did make use of icons along with statues and decorated liturgical elements, such as chalices with the image of Christ engraved upon them. A simple crawl through the Roman catacombs or the remains of Dura Europos (Syria) would provide a pointed demonstration.

Catacomb archeological superintendent Fabrizio Bisconti points to frescoes discovered with the 4th-century icons of the Apostles Peter and Paul in a catacomb under Rome. (AP Photo/Pier Paolo Cito) Source: AdelaideNow

Catacomb archeological superintendent Fabrizio Bisconti points to frescoes discovered with the 4th-century icons of the Apostles Peter and Paul in a catacomb under Rome. (AP Photo/Pier Paolo Cito) Source: AdelaideNow

 

 

As I shared my findings the first thing they told me was that Catholics worship these images. When I asked Catholics they told me that they “venerated” these images and never worshipped them.

The ancient Jews understood this distinction (between veneration and worship/adoration), as did the Christians who came forth from Judaism as its true fulfillment in Christ.

Everything from the Jewish Mezuzah to the Torah was venerated (kissed) by pious Jews even until today. Christ would have done the same; this is an ancient custom. And regardless if one doesn’t find some of these customs in the Bible, it was practiced by the faithful from time immemorial.

I was quite impressed to see Messianic believers carry out such customs, yet found it an irony that they refuse Catholics to do the same while they do not have incense.

The Roman catacombs are filled with predominantly Old Testament imagery, demonstrating that the early iconographers came from the Jewish Christians and not only the Greeks.

The tabernacle/temple itself was replete with images, practically everywhere that one would look (and while prostrating before them): on the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:18), on the curtains (Ex. 26:1), on the veil of the Most Holy place (Ex. 26:31), the statues of cherubim (1 Kings 6:23) on the walls (1 Kings 6:29), on the doors (1 Kings 6:32), and on the furnishings (1 Kings 7:29,36).

The objection is always when many quote Exodus 20:3-5 and Deuteronomy 4:15 God was proscribing against idolatry, that is the worship of images as gods. But in Exodus 25:18-22 and Ezekiel 41:18-19 He ordains the proper use of images in worship. Did God contradict Himself? Hardly.

Even pre-Acts, the temple itself was an image (or “icon”) of heaven; it was made to represent heaven itself (Heb. 8:5; cf. Ex. 25:40). One can even read examples of favorable attitudes towards images in the Palestinian Talmud:

 

“In the days of Rabbi Jochanan, men began to paint pictures on the walls, and he did not hinder them … In the days of Rabbi Abbun, men began to make designs on mosaics, and he did not hinder them” (Abodah Zarah, 48d).

 

 

In the age of the Apostles, the earliest Christians believed that physical phenomena, such as shadows and handkerchiefs, could be used to heal people. Acts 5:15 records how sick Christians believed that healing could come through being overshadowed by St. Peter’s shadow:

 

 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

St. Paul used handkerchiefs to heal the sick:

So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. (Acts 19:12)

St. Peter's Shadow

St. Peter’s Shadow

 

As already mentioned, the synagogue (and house church) of Dura Europos (Syria, ca. early-3rd century AD) is filled, wall-to-ceiling, with images of Old Testament stories and saints — and all in places where the Jews would’ve been prostrating before the Torah scrolls. The assertion that either ancient or Second Temple Judaism was inherently iconoclastic is truly a modern polemical myth. (see Is There Really a Patristic Critique of Icons, By Gabe Martini, May 25, 2013 http://onbehalfofall.org/?p=6335)

Iconoclasm is rampant in the American church, and this is concerning, for it is in common with the iconoclasm of Islam.

The formidable Jesuit polemicists for Catholicism Robert Bellarmine defend icons stating:

 

“When God the Father is represented as an old man, the Holy Ghost as a dove, and angels as winged youths, this is not done because they are really like that. They are bodiless spirits, we all know. But we give them human and earthly forms because it was under such that they revealed themselves to men. God the Father appeared as an old man in a vision to the prophet Daniel. The Holy Ghost is shown as a dove because it was in that form that he appeared at the baptism of our Lord. The pictures and statues we make are not intended to show us things in themselves but rather the quality of things, or the effects they produce. For instance, the Holy Spirit is represented as a dove to signify the gifts of innocence, purity and holiness, which he endows in our souls. Similarly, angels are given wings because we know that their heavenly strength and beauty never decline, and they are always on tiptoe to do God’s bidding. Sometimes we even see them in white robes and sacred stoles, signifying their sinlessness and service of the divine majesty.” (The Catholic Protestant Debate: Robert Bellarmine’s Spirited Polemics by Dinesh D’Souza)

 

Robert Bellarmine

Robert Bellarmine

When Bellarmine states, “under such that they revealed themselves to men,” he is correct, The New Testament did depict the holy spirit as a “dove” in the Bible when Christ was baptized in the Jordan river, also God was depicted as a man with white hair as Daniel described Him. (Daniel 7)

 

The idea that icons were introduced by Roman paganism by Constantine is a myth developed by Alexander Hislop in his Two Babylons. In fact, it was Islam that forbade icons a millennia before Hislop invented his myths.

 

It was the Muslim Abd al-Jabbar was the first to propagate these myths in his “Critique of Christian Origins,” which is considered the first Islamic history on Christianity in the late tenth century. Without knowing that the author is Muslim, quoting some of al-Jabbar writings is similar to what anti-Constantine Messianic and Evangelicals say:

 

“Constantine was wicked and calculating … he made an external show of venerating Christ and the Cross. Yet he confirmed the Roman religious practices as they were, including praying to the East and other things that have been mentioned. He removed nothing other than the worship of the planets, espousal of his [Christ’s] divinity and veneration of the Cross.” (Abd al-Jabbar in his “Critique of Christian Origins”, Part III, 213-214, trans. Gabriel Said Reylonds)

 

That Constantine invented Christmas, he states:

 

“The Romans and the Greeks had a holiday which they called the “Birth of Time.” It was at the return of sunlight in December. They made it the birthday of Christ, adding and subtracting [things from it]. This is the great holiday for them, which the Chritsians celebrate and call Christmas or Christmas Eve. The Christians in the time of Christ, and his companions after him, did not know this holiday and did not celebrate it (Ibid, 244-247)

 

Pertaining to Lent, he writes:

 

“The Romans and the Sabi’un [Sabians] had a day on which they fasted, the days of the planetary perigees, during which they [Christians] refrained from eating meat. When they began to espouse the divinity of Jesus, they confirmed [these fatsts], and then added to them in some ways and subtracted from them. Today they fast fifty days, until the zenith of the sun, then they break their fasts on some days.” (Ibid, 248-250)

 

Al-Jabbar even claimed that incense, icons, veneration of Mary and the Apostles, all came from pagan origins:

 

“The Romans and the Sabi’un [Sabians] used smoke and incense in the temples of the planets and idols. This continues to this day among the Christians who have not annulled it … the Romans, along with their worship of the planets, venerated idols, erected representations of them in the temples. They continued in this way even after they accepted the veneration of the Cross, without any decrease, with Christ, his mother, and his companions [desciples] in the place of those idols.” (Ibid, 279-284)

 

The hatred of Constantine and icons in the church is a modern manmade tradition that goes in line with Muslim views, which I had to endure listening to for two decades in my church and Messianic circles. It was as if my new evangelical faith needed to have something in common with Islam; they denounced Constantine’s vision of the cross in the sky, they even circulated throughout the nation, a mythical scenario I learned fairly quickly which goes like this; it was the evil Constantine who founded the Catholic Church and was its first pope. He established it after he suppressed the original church that comprised of true Bible believing Christians. He prohibited the Bible from being read, changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and mixed paganism with Christianity and that is why Catholics in reality worship The Queen of Heaven, saints, pagan icons, the Sun Disk (Eucharist) and statues.

 

StPeterChrysologus

The church bought into Cumont’s popularized idea that Constantine founded the Catholic Church. But this assertion, like al-Jabbar, came as a result of his anti-Christian perspective and was not accurate history. He wrote that Christianity took from its opponents their own weapons, and used them; the better elements of paganism were transferred to the new religion. (Cumont, The Oriental Religions, intro, p. xi)

And before Cumont, Alexander Hislop, the Scottish ‘ordained Anglican minister’ who wrote The Two Babylons, that many evangelicals, especially Messianics refer to pointing the pagan origins in the Catholic practices.

But the ‘sheep’ were unaware that Hislop attacked the Trinity, which is an issue that both Evangelicals and Catholics agree on.

His pitfall was a self-defeating claim. He falsely pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by Roman Catholics as pagan in origin and definition. Hislop by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India made the Trinity as a “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that, “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”. (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (Neptune, NJ: Loizeau Bros, 1959)

But were all these assertions the truth stated by promoters of truth, or is this a mythical description and a slanderous fabrication of history?

I was a man acquainted with slander, so I decided to fight this with the same passion and vigorousness as I fought the promoters of the Protocols of The Elders of Zion.

Pope Francis hold statue of Mary during Mass at Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida

 

Hislop’s fallacies on the Trinity can be demonstrated by simply exercising his methods ourselves. If we have an agenda, it is possible to contrive any number of links between two entirely disparate religious systems. Odin, for example, is the father of the gods in the Nordic tradition. He sits upon a throne called “High Seat”, from which he can observe Midgard (the realms of men.) Two large ravens (whose names are “Thought” and “Memory”) roost upon opposite shoulders of the throne. Each morning they leave their perches and fly down to Midgard, where they spend the entire day. At evening they return, and whisper everything they have seen and heard into the ears of Odin.
 Sometimes the father of the gods will visit Midgard in person. On these occasions he manifests himself as a one-eyed man attended by two large wolves.
 The Vikings believed that Odin, Vili and Ve (three divine brothers of equal power) were responsible for creation. Later, Odin became Father of the gods, while his brothers vanish from the narrative.

When King Gylfi (a mortal man) makes his way to the home of the gods, he is met by three divine entities, who impart a series of prophetic revelations. The names of these entities are “High”, “Just-as-High”, and “The Third.” At the end of his audience, Gylfi realises that he has spoken to none other than Odin himself, manifested in three equal persons.
 Odin’s wife Frigga has a magic ring, which creates nine other rings of equal value every ninth night. The numbers “3” and “9” are powerful symbols in Norse mythology, because three is the number of Odin and nine is the cube of three. They occur many times throughout the Nordic tradition. (Burk, D. The Two Babylons – Hislop’s hypothesis debunked)

Here we have more than enough material from which we might fabricate a “Norse Trinity” and claim that the Vikings themselves were Trinitarians. (Ibid).

We can even use Frigga’s nine rings, and if we wish to attack Judaism, we would attribute it to the nine candle Menorah. Then we package our findings in a book as it is a new discovery into debunking the entire Judeo-Christian history and it becomes a bestseller that when the truth responds as “Hislop’s hypothesis debunked,” no one reads it.

And that is how sheep are taken to the slaughterhouse after they have consumed their last meal; a concoction that ‘builds on similarities while ignoring volumes of differences’ is a lethal meal.

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  • Kamau40

    Amen Mr. Walid. God Bless you brother!!

    • shoebat

      Bless you too brother Kamau40

  • shoebat

    You write “What are the scriptures in the New Testament that tell us to make symbols and images? Their faith healed them, not shadows and handkerchiefs.” Apparently you failed to read the full article. Search for Peter and you will see. Also, when you say “New Testament” you intentionally failed to say “The Bible”. Now when you ask your question again using “The Bible”, you will fail to debunk anything written in this article, but good luck trying.

    • goldhands

      You are very ignorant. God forgive you. You are good at judging but not at loving. You will loose your soul if you continue to due such things.

    • KC

      As a fairly new visitor to this website, I find articles like this to be nothing but a way to cause division. “The term ‘evangelical comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the ‘gospel.’ Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the ‘good news’ of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.” I find your analogy of linking Evangelicals to Islam’s iconoclast beliefs to be offensive. Walid, it’s your forum & no doubt you will do as you see fit. With so much divisiveness amongst believers it would be nice to see more articles that bring us together as the body of Christ & not cause unnecessary hostility instead. Thank God when we all stand before Him the ONLY thing He will care about is if we are covered in the Lambs blood– not how many “icons” we had in the church of our attendance.

      • Steve Smith

        KC Walid is not using Greek he is using an American term for a group of protestants. in Europe the term is used for Lutherans

        • KC

          Walid says, “But then when I became Christian, I talked Maria into leaving St. Francis since I was more comfortable attending a Baptist church in which they had no icons…” I think it’s very obvious how he’s using the term.

      • Wayne

        1 Cor. 11:19
        “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.”

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Let’s start with heresy #1 : 1. Most protestants deny that baptism “saves” you, or imparts the Holy Spirit, in DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE BIBLE. Acts 2:38-41 “And PETER said to them, ‘repent and BE BAPTIZED, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS, and you WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, this PROMISE is to you AND to your children, and to those afar off…those who accepted his word WERE BAPTIZED, and about 3,000 SOULS were added that day.

          • Wayne

            Where you are in error is when you mix up baptism of the Spirit, versus baptism with water. I hate to break it to you, but water doesn’t have salvific properties. Tell me, did the Holy Spirit indwell them before, or after they were baptized with water? And just for fun, explain Acts 8:16. Im gonna go take a nap. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Were they baptized or not? Yes, they had. And true to Jesus’ and Peter’s word, that you “will” receive the holy spirit. Neither Jesus nor Peter said that the received it AT THAT MOMENT. Besides, do you wish to call Jesus a liar? I pray not. Also, the first gentile convert came about ten years after Jesus ascended. God gave Peter a vision of “kill and eat”, so that Peter would finally understand that the gentiles were to be brought into the church as well as Jew, this is why Cornelius was given the holy spirit, as a sign to Peter to bring in the gentiles. The laying on of hands is done in confirmation. Also, we have Saul of Tarsus, stuck down on the road to Damascus, (some would say he was “slayed” in the Spirit), but, what does Jesus tell Ananias- go down towards Damascus and find Saul. What does Ananias say “Saul, my brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the holy Spirit. Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. HE GOT UP AND WAS BAPTZIED.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You are so wrong about water not having salvific properties. You are denying Jesus by saying that. John’s baptism was “for repentance” and his was only with water before the holy spirit descended on Jesus. Jesus gets baptized in the JORDAN BY JOHN, and the holy spirit, in the image of dove, landed on Jesus. Jesus then tries to explain to Nicodemus that he has to be “born again”, with water and spirit, (what had just happened to Jesus), and Jesus chides Nicodemus for not understanding!! Why? Because all through salvation history, God has used “water and spirit” to renew creation. Check out the first two verses in Genesis, water and spirit. Israelites crossing the Red Sea with the “spirit” over them in the form of a pillar of cloud and pillar of smoke, then Noah and the Ark, the waters, a dove comes to the ark with an olive branch, etc. According to JESUS OUR LORD Acts 3:5 “Amen, amen, I say to you, NO ONE CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT BEING BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT.” Pray tell what could he mean- what just happened to Jesus? HE WAS BAPTIZED. And what follows in the same story? Acts3:22 “After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them BAPTIZING.” Now convince me that water isn’t salvific- Because the spirit hovers over the waters, and Jesus himself entered the water, makes them salvific.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Did the water in the old testament story of Naaman the leper heal him? Yes it did. WITHOUT mention of the holy spirit. 2 Kings 5:1-14
            “Go, wash in the Jordan 7 times, and your flesh shall be restored and you shall be clean…so he went down and dipped himself 7 times in the Jordan river, according to the word of the man of God, AND HIS FLESH WAS RESTORED like a little child, AND HE WAS CLEAN”. You can give up fighting God’s words if you will let the scripture speak for itself instead of coming to it with a bias. God created ALL THINGS, and you can sure bet he put them here to serve his purposes.

          • Corinna Morris

            I love your answers and your humor.
            God bless you, Wayne

          • Wayne

            Thank you Corinna and God bless you as well. This is crazy though. It saddens me that I come here to discuss prophecy (because I disagree with the Islamic AC view) and instead I get Catholic dogma shoved down my throat by Walid himself. Its been going on for a while on this site but it had gotten a little better over the past two or three weeks. Now its happening again. I don’t think Walid knows how many people he is turning off. The Islamic AC view has enough problems as it is. Then when people see these other doctrinal errors and bad theological problems, why would people trust him with prophecy? To me, its only further proof that Walid’s method of interpretation has serious problems. How one interprets the text affects all areas of theology, and eschatology is certainly one of those areas.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you realize that scripture itself tells us that any prophecy of scripture IS NOT FOR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION?
            (2 Peter 1:20) Maybe the human beings mentioned that can, by the Holy Spirit that speak under the influence of God, maybe these are the leaders of the Church he left, the same Church that canonized the Bible might be best to interpret what they themselves declared to be the inspired Word of God.

          • Wayne

            Or, maybe you are simply misunderstanding what this verse is saying. Many do. I’ll tell you what he’s not saying. He is not saying that individual believers, which are obviously indwelled by the Holy Spirit, are unable to interpret prophetical writings. That idea is rejected and contradicted throughout Scripture. Just one example among many……what was John told to write in the Book of Revelation?

            Rev. 1:3
            “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”

            Notice first that this doesnt say “Blessed is the Catholic Church that readeth, and those Catholic Churches that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therin…”

            No, this is meant for individuals. Individuals who read it, hear it (Gk= “akouo”-to understand, perceive), and keep it (Gk=”tereo”-to attend carefully, guard).

            Again, there are a plethora of examples we could look at, but that shouldn’t be necessary.

            Now lets look at 2 Peter again, but lets look at more than just verse 20.

            2 Pet.1:19-21
            “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

            Is Peter even talking about how individuals interpret Scripture? Is that even implied in the context? Clearly, he is not. What did he say prior to verse 19?

            2 Pet. 1:16-18
            “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”

            Peter is referring to being an actual eye witness to the Transfiguration. This is no doubt a big deal, but unlike many today, he still doesnt base truth only on his experiences! He bases truth on the written Word. This is the final authority, not our experiences.

            He goes on to say in verse 19, that we have a MORE SURE word of prophecy. Said another way, whats written (Scripture) is more sure than whats simply been “seen”. Why? Because the future had been written down before it happened, or will happen, and its open for everyone to witness. God has declared the end from the beginning, its part of what authenticates His message.

            Notice also in verse 19, he tells his readers (individuals) to “take heed” to prophecy. How can they be expected to take heed if he tells them in the next verse that they cant even understand it anyway?

            No, this is a misunderstanding of verse 20, and again can be seen in verse 21. What he is saying in verses 20 and 21 is that the prophecy thats been given, wasnt of any individual’s own thoughts or own doing. He is dealing with the source of prophecy to man, not with the interpretation of prophecy by man.

            Also, see Mark 4:34 and Acts 19:39. These are two other places where the Greek word for ‘interpretation’ is used. A better definition for the word in 2 Pet.1:20 would be “disclosure”.

          • Corinna Morris

            This is the first post wherein I’ve commented through this feed. I’ve commented a one liner or two in the other feed before. I just finished Walids book Gods war on terror and liked it so much, I bought copies for two family members that are reading it now. I didn’t understand what the ending was trying to say but perhaps my cousin will. I’m an apartment manager and I have refugees galore coming to me from Syria and Egypt. Orthodox and Islam are both running here for refuge and it’s appearing to me, bubble girl, that they are two sides of the same extreme coin. The Orthodox that I have here don’t read their Bibles, if they even have one. I bought a Arabic/ English bible translation for one family, but the need to read or learn has to come within from God. The Islamic family’s are falling to the American party/how to beat the system lifestyle rather rapidly. With in months of them being here, it’s clear to see they are changing and I’m not so sure it’s for the better. I will say this post has me on alert, where Mr. Shoebat is concerned. I was disappointed with how he responded with any opposition in the beginning, and disappointed with the whole decisive nature in general, but then again, he’s human and I’m not always on my best foot, so I understand the pressure. He would do best leading people to salvation in Christ, than from one extreme religious dogma to another. Catholics that don’t read their bibles and think they can earn salvation are big money givers, so it can be a profitable enterprise monetarily if that is the agenda. God exposes all, so I trust He will bring truth. Until then, I am greatly cautioned. I will look for your comments in the future, as I weed through the junk trying to gain a little understanding about what’s really going on, in the world lol Keep being a voice of reason Wayne. God bless you

          • Wayne

            I agree with what you’ve said here. Walid has done a great job in exposing the true nature of Islam. Of that, there is no doubt. But its like some of that is being cancelled out by him advocating the RCC/Orthodox. I too enjoyed Walid’s book, as well as some of Joel Richardson’s work. But in the end, I simply disagree with both men’s views. Some important things just don’t add up. I have no doubt that Islam has a role to play, but Islam is only one piece of a large puzzle. I believe Catholicism has a large role to play just as well, and its not a good role! The AC will be many things, but he will by no means be a strict Islamist. He will somehow appeal to Islam, but he will also appeal to phony ‘Christians’, some apostate Jews, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, etc.

            There are other areas I disagree as well. I disagree with the whole area of what Walid’s view does with the “Fourth Beast”. I also disagree with the “Ottoman Empire” even being involved with Rev. 13 & 17 period. I disagree with Walid’s view of Saudi Arabia being “Babylon”, and his complete interpretation of Is. 21. I disagree with many if not most of the things he says regarding Dan. 11:36-45. I mean, there are just a lot of areas where I see big problems.

            But though I disagree, I still like to discuss these things with people who see it the way Walid does. However, this nonsense with Catholicism has to go. I simply wont continue to put up with it. What happens is you have people like this Julie chick that just completely spams the whole discussion. No telling how many comments she’s plastered here on just this one thread and I disagree with every single statement she’s made. Her errors are so many and so serious that it would take an endless amount of time to remedy. But again, Im not here to help fix many centuries of errors put forth by the RCC. Im here to discuss with people the meat of Scripture, not fight and argue with babes.

            Take good care of yourself Corrina and keep fighting the good fight!

          • Corinna Morris

            I am in 100% agreement with you on most of what you said. I say most because I would love for you to expound on the topics in your second paragraph. I would greatly appreciate it when you have time as I’m questioning Walids agenda and viewpoints more and more as I see his accusations, assumptions, responses, and seeming ability to read people’s minds. It doesn’t even sound like the same walid I’ve seen on YouTube and who’s words I’ve read in his posts and book. Something is very wrong. As far a Julie, I’m praying for her, she knows not what she does. She’s just spitting vomit at any unsuspecting bystander. I’m hearing cries for help is all. So join with me in prayer for Julie.

          • Wayne

            Yes, I’d be glad to explain more. Im not sure that this is a good place to do it though. Too much confusion with all of these comments and anyone and everyone having a sounding stage for their false doctrine. Do you have a secondary email that you could give me so we could establish communication? If not, I can make one and give it to you. Just don’t put your primary email on here for everyone to see. Let me know.

          • Corinna Morris

            Are you on Facebook? Can you find me as Corinna Morris or [email protected] ?

          • Wayne

            I think I found you. Sent you a message and friend request.

          • Don’t worry Wayne…The Millennium will begin 735,000 days after the death of Christ which was either in 34 or 35 C.E. we will begin to see things occurring around 2040 the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period…

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Heresy #1 (continued) – 1 Peter 3:19-21 “In it he also went to preach to the spirits in PRISON, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, WERE SAVED THROUGH WATER. This prefigured BAPTISM, WHICH NOW SAVES YOU.”
          Titus 3:5 “not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US THROUGH THE BATH OF REBIRTH (born again) AND RENEWAL BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.”

          • Wayne

            Now you are just lying by omitting the key part of verse 21…”(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)”!!!! The act of water baptism is an outward profession of faith due to a good conscience toward God! WATER HAS NO SALVIFIC PROPERTIES!! LOL

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Oh, you are so wrong. Keep believing like you believe. Do you know what a covenant is? If you do know, how does one enter the New Covenant?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If you can tell us how one enters the New Covenant, then tell us how you “keep” the New Covenant. Clue: The old covenant entry was by circumcision, the “keeping” or “sign” of the covenant was by celebrating the Passover Feast, which was the “meal” that Jesus shared with his apostles the night before he died. You know why? Because Jesus is now our Paschal Lamb, and just like the old Passover meal, you have to eat the flesh of the lamb after the Lamb is slain.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Romans 6:3-4 “Do you not know that all of us who have been BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”
            Romans 6:11…But now you have been WASHED , you were sanctified, you were justified…” Corinthians 12:13 “For in one spirit we were all BAPTIZED into one body…and we were all given to drink of one spirit” Galatians 3:27 “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed themselves with Christ”
            Col 2:12 “You were buried with him in BAPTISM, IN WHICH YOU WERE ALSO RAISED WITH HIM through faith in the power of God… How many more verses do I need to provide for you before you might understand? Something that is quite remarkable to me, is that fundamentalists and evangelicals claim, “The Bible says what it means, and means what it says!! We take his word literally!!! (except for baptism and communion, Jesus didn’t really mean what he said).

          • Corinna Morris

            Are you trying to bring more divisions?
            (1 Timothy 6:4-he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,)
            And:
            (1Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.)

          • Somekindofpatriot

            Your right Corinna, Satan seams to be having a field day here. Enough already, let’s remember what’s important.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            NO-TRUTH, why, if I bring scripture to a post, I’m being divisive, if you bring them, you’re not being divisive. Can you answer the question?

          • Corinna Morris

            Grace and peace to you, in Jesus name Amen!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        If you find his analogy offensive (of linking evangelicals to Islam’s same belief), you might want to study the history of “protestants” that tore down and destroyed these icons. The first shot across the bow came from the protestants, not Walid.

        • KC

          Jule, do you really believe God, after sending His Son to the Cross, cares one iota if you do, or do not, carry a hankerchief into your place of worship? He knows the attitudes of our hearts– if it isn’t an attitude of idle worship, carry the hankerchief if you want to, but don’t tell me my theology is like Islam because I don’t need, or want to use icons. These hostile topics & divisions are endless– you make a point, someone else will contest & counter it, you respond– on & on it goes, never-ending. My comment to Walid was a valid one– the use of icons in worship, or the lack of using them, does nothing but send up a red flag about the motives of the person(s) bringing the issue up in the first place. Has this website now become a fight between Protestants and Catholics? If so– I’ll leave you to it. What a waste. “”I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be ONE as we are ONE.” (John 17:22)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No I don’t think he cares, I’ve never said or implied that. If you thought I did I apologize. Because you don’t seem to be Catholic or Orthodox, you don’t know the slander that those groups have had to deal with, AND the persecution since the protestant reformation. There’s enough blame on both sides of the issue. I will bet, though, that you yourself have never been slandered, because, here in America, protestants prevail. As far as most protestant denominations are divided in their doctrines and practices, there is ONE thing they all agree on, and that is, that they are in protest against the Catholic Church.

          • KC

            In spite of what you may think about all Protestants, I consider ANY person who claims Jesus Christ as the One & only Son of God & Savior, my brother/sister in Christ. I’m sorry if your experiences in life have been contrary to this. One of my best friends is Catholic. My belief is we need to come together in our commonness (belief in Christ) & stop picking at the scabs of history. If indeed we are living in the last days, time is short. Let’s start loving one another instead of arguing.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Amen

          • shoebat

            KC, no one is “picking on the scabs of history”. To be silent on history is crucial and we learn from our mistakes in history. History is key to find out who is and who is not obedient to Christ. Fact is, books galore are still being printed that point the Catholic Church as evil. They slander without evidence. Should we be silent when our Protestant brethren slander our Catholic brethren? Most of the articles we write on Catholic Protestant issues is simple–its time to confess, we mistreated Catholic history. The Catholic history is amazing. My question is: how much do you know about such history?

          • KC

            Re: “What difference should my theological views have with aiding the suffering?”

            In a perfect world, it should make absolutely no difference what-so-ever.

            Re: “Your first mistake is this “the people who will visit your website will already be Christians… This is utterly false KC.”

            I now see that my assumption that your site would be frequented, mostly, by people such as myself (believers who are prophecy buffs) is, evidently, not the case. Some of my naivety is due to not being on your site for very long.

            Re: “…when Islam rises against Russia and Rome? What will so many Evangelicals do? Will they stand with Russia and Rome? No, they will cheer the Muslim to kill the Orthodox and the Catholic.”

            It isn’t Evangelicals who are running the heads of nations around the world making these decisions. I do understand your underlying point here– to educate, but the majority of the world is “lost,” and as you well know from scripture, things end that way too. Somehow God is accomplishing His plan for mankind in spite of this fact. I applaud your desire to educate about what you deem important– but I do think it unrealistic because, as you said yourself, the malicious outnumber the righteous. The gate is narrow because too few choose to enter in.

            Re: “Battle of Lepanto. Protestants missed out… ”

            History is replete with the evidences of unjust actions taken, or not taken. The “Christian” United States denied visas to Jews (WWII) and slogans like, “Kill them all and let God sort them out,” (Beziers Massacre) didn’t originate from people who chose rightly. All are guilty of the autrocities of war.

            Re: “…Moses who told you to gaze at the bronze serpent. What would you tell Moses?”

            If I believed Moses was divinely chosen by God, (are you infering as is the Pope?) and he told me to gaze on the serpent, I would be right there among the rest of the iconolaters. I’ve already said, on your site, I would never tell anyone they shouldn’t have icons– given that they aren’t worshipping the icons themselves. I actually believe the diversity of the different ways we worship is okay with God. He knew “one shoe(bat) wouldn’t fit all” (sorry, couldn’t help the pun). But I don’t expect anyone to tell me how I should worship, either, if I choose no icons.

            Re: “Let me ask: what divided us? Is it me?”

            As I said, Jesus knew we would be divided, He prayed for us to be One (in spirit) as He and the Father were/are One. This is my point– I think we can be One in our commonness of Christ and still have different denominational worship. I just believe we should strive for unity and not dwell on the differences.

            Re: “What and who was the Church?”

            All believers in Christ.

            Re: “Are these questions unimportant?”

            No, but motivation for asking is also important.

            Re: “So tell me, who divided the Church?”

            All the nasty, bad, demon possessed reformationists, of course.

            Re: “How can we solve an issue if we do not examine the roots of the problem?”

            The roots of this “problem” have been studied for centuries. I don’t see the diversity of The Church as a problem, but I do realize I’m in a minority.

            Re: “Do we follow Luther or Christ? If Luther was correct, than be all means lets follow him. You might respond with “I follow Jesus”. But can one make a blanket statement like this?”

            Yes, I do believe one can make a blanket statement like this. By the authority of God’s word, and the indwelling of His Spirit, I have the capacity to follow Him.

            Re: “Jesus had us follow Peter and Paul. He appoints authority. Is the question of authority an invalid question?”

            No, authority is not invalid, scripture tells us to be subject to those over us, but authority is not necessary for belief in Christ, nor is it necessary to live a life as a Christ follower. I can live on a deserted isle with a copy of the Bible, read and understand the Gospel, never hear of the Pope or any other church leader in my entire life, and as long as I believe Christ is my Savior i will go to Heaven when i die. Too simple? “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

            Re: “To be silent on history is crucial and we learn from our mistakes in history.”

            Agreed.

            Re: “History is key to find out who is and who is not obedient to Christ.”

            No. In the individual’s life it is the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of obedience. In a society, it is the collection of individuals who are listening to their moral conscience, the moral majority (hopefully Christian) who decide. “History” will tell me only that there were even Christians who turned a blind eye on Nazi Germany– but history will not make me do the right thing. I am, also, limited in what I can do about some of the wrongs I see happening. Case in point– the Obama administration’s foreign policy towards Israel.

            Re: “Should we be silent when our Protestant brethren slander our Catholic brethren? Most of the articles we write on Catholic Protestant issues is simple–its time to confess, we mistreated Catholic history. The Catholic history is amazing. My question is: how much do you know about such history?”

            I think there is a rich history involved in every aspect of what we call The Church today. I also believe God can be found “in” each historical “part” of the Christian Church. The Catholic Church may indeed have an amazing history. That doesn’t nullify what God did through hundreds of very Godly men involved in the reformation. All are blessed if their motive be Christ. As I said to someone on your site this week, if a person confesses Christ Lord and Savior, they are my brother/sister in Christ– I don’t care what church they go to. I celebrate our other diversities.

            Should I pay financial restitution to African Americans for my ancestors involvement with slavery? Should I go find a Hispanic and give him my house since, after all, we stole land from Mexico? Or, oh, don’t forget the original sin was Eve’s fault so, blame me for the Fall while you’re at it. Where does it end Walid? Are you looking for us all to join the Catholic Church?

            I do understand the slant all this has on your interpretation of prophecy, but… “He changes times and seasons; he deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.” If God is “changing,” “deposing,” “raising up,” and giving “wisdom and knowledge to the discerning,” and He’s done this all through history, is it possible you have “taken on” a part of history that God had complete control of for His own reasons– part of a bigger plan perhaps? The “God’s sovereignty” can of worms is now open.
            Blessings

          • shoebat

            “God is accomplishing His plan for mankind in spite of this fact.” Indeed, but it is our involvement in this plan that makes all the difference.

            I wrote: “…when Islam rises against Russia and Rome? What will so many Evangelicals do? Will they stand with Russia and Rome? No, they will cheer the Muslim to kill the Orthodox and the Catholic.”

            You responded with: “It isn’t Evangelicals who are running the heads of nations around the world making these decisions. I do understand your underlying point here– to educate, but the majority of the world is “lost,” and as you well know from scripture, things end that way too.”

            But you still avoided the issue and several other issues in your response. No one was speaking of Evangelicals running the show. Evangelicals are a major voting block in this nation. Not only that, as individuals we need to take sides. I was simply asking “what side would Evangelicals take? It is a major issue, its a showdown between the true followers of Christ and Antichrist. Example: Christ in Joel 3 judges based on our support for dividing the land of Israel. Do you think that where we stand does not ale a difference? Read Joel 3 and contemplate on it. Please do not brush the issue at hand.

            The problem with Prophecy buffs is that they are mostly interested in Rapture timing. I don’t think you are one of these. Prophecy buffs want to use the Bible as a time-clock, yet forgetting that getting involved is the most crucial issue. The problem with most Evangelicals I speak with is this: In everything, they seem to be narrow minded. It is as if the main thing is the Four Spiritual laws and a booklet. Whatever one says to them that might bust their comfort zone, they will always pull the booklet and say “The only important thing is salvation”. Yet they ignore that the God wants to finish His work in us. Such process is not an easy one and neither is it accomplished in thinking simplistically by ignoring the whole of the book. The Bible is not a booklet, it is a roadmap for us individually and collectively.

          • KC

            “What side would Evangelicals take? It is a major issue.”

            Yes, a major issue– but where we differ lies in where you think we are in the process. You still have hope for a different outcome and I think the last election put the writing on the wall as far as Evangelicals are concerned. I think you overestimate the power of the, so-called, Evangelical voting block. Over 6 million who call themselves Evangelical voted for Obama. “What side would Evangelicals take?” Those who are paying attention, and who know something about prophecy “should” take Israel’s side (whatever that will mean and however that will play out in history). God puts the writing on the wall for His people who are “paying attention.” As for the rest– they are too busy being involved in their daily lives, so I don’t put much hope in them.

            Yes, it does matter individually, too, if we bless Israel or not. When surveyed the American public prioritizes the economy, always. When I look at a candidate my first question is, “how does this person stand on the defense of Israel?” Again, I know I’m in the minority.

            I would agree that a lot of prophecy buffs are focused on the Rapture, but it is because many look at world events and reason, “we have to be close.” Yes, getting involved is critical– and many of us do what we can to let our voices be heard and give financially to organizations we deem worthwhile. However, there is an overwhelming sense (when I read what’s being said on various sites), that things are happening so fast there’s hardly time to take it all in. This combined with the duties of daily life tends to make far too many apathetic. Like the frog in the pot of boiling water who, as the heat is turned up, just sits there and cooks to death instead of jumping out.

            Could not agree with you more that the Bible is a roadmap for us both individually and collectively. I think what you are experiencing, Walid (re: your attitude on how Evangelicals focus on Salvation) is a cultural difference. You were born into an area of the world where life is hard and violent. You see hope and change still possible in this country and wonder why we don’t realize how good we have it, correct? Our country is compiled of people born into ease and wealth where most of us never lack for anything– “the American dream.” Now we see a deterioration of the moral fiber because God is systematiaclly being removed as we become more and more a secular society. This saddens many of us to watch happen, but many feel as though there’s nothing we can do about it. So the bottom line Walid? Because of your background you are an optimist and wonder why we don’t realize how much we have here and how we can still change the world. Most of us see my parent’s generation as “the last great generation,” but we have little hope in returning to the values we once had. Therefore, yes, we focus on Salvation because, when all is said and done, that IS what’s most important. “God into all the world and preach the Gospel.” Perhaps, to you, it appears we are thinking “simplistically.” To many of us, it is thinking realistically, because, if indeed, the hour is late– Salvation is what matters the most.

            I’m not justifying the attitudes nor the lack of action, Merely giving my perspective.

          • benvad

            I’m Catholic and we were guilty of not aiding the Church of Constantinople in time when they needed help against the Turks. We did save the rest of Europe against the Turks and other Muslims.

            Where we’re the Orthodox when we commenced the Crusades? My point is there’s enough blame to go around that we are all guilty of. One day the Evangelicals and the others will realise, I just hope it is not too late.

          • I have seen plenty of televangelists – Robert Tilton comes to mind, and a few others, who have made bits of kleenex available to people who want healing – for a minimum ‘gift’ of 20 bucks. Now where did Tilton get such an idea?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why don’t you tell us, since you seem to know. I, or any fellow parishioner has never had to “Pay” for healing in the Catholic church, if that’s your insinuation. All you have to do is come to the altar and be anointed with oil while the priest prays for you with the laying on of hands. Free and effective. I don’t know who Robert Tilton is.

          • shoebat

            KC, imagine you were with Moses who told you to gaze at the bronze serpent. What would you tell Moses? Another question, you talk about being one. Let me ask: what divided us? Is it me? Did I make a division in the Church? Who divided the Church? What and who was the Church? Are these questions unimportant? So tell me, who divided the Church? How can we solve an issue if we do not examine the roots of the problem? Do we follow Luther or Christ? If Luther was correct, than be all means lets follow him. You might respond with “I follow Jesus”. But can one make a blanket statement like this? Jesus had us follow Peter and Paul. He appoints authority. Is the question of authority an invalid question?

      • shoebat

        If debating theology was “divisive” than when God said “Come let us reason together …” was also according to you “divisive”. I also find that people who are easily offended are the most offensive, for what you stated accusing me of being offensive is also in itself offensive. Why don’t you find something I said to be wrong ad correct me instead of doing the typical “I am offended”. To me the wheel that squeaks does not get any grease, but gets thrown in the dumpster.

        • KC

          Walid, I came onto your site recently after becoming introduced to your prophecy teachings. I had nothing but praise for you because you challenge people to study prophecy for themselves. In less than a two week time period, of coming here, our conversation has come to this. You write a book about how Islam is the Antichrist, then you expect me not to be offended when you compare Evangelicals to Islam, and you do this in the name of debating theology? “Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,” The verse you quote to defend debating theology is God rebuking “meaningless offerings.” My message has been one of fellowship & cohesiveness– to try to build on our strengths as believers in Christ. You post articles that you know full well will be counterproductive to the unity of believers. You complain that there a few “real thinkers” here, then you slam anyone who disagrees with you & instead of discussing anything, you insult with “squeaky wheel” comments. There have been plenty of specifics about where you are wrong by multiple people here. Believing Orthodoxy is the cure-all for the world is wrong. Comparing Evangelicals to Islam is wrong. Posting articles on your website, when people have come here because they start out respecting you, but then end up being bombarded with insults is wrong. “Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” If your desire is to teach those who come onto your website, it’s my opinion. that you’re methods do not correspond to the way we’re told to do it. Not all of us are stupid sheep who fall in line with everything you say– we can think for ourselves.

          • shoebat

            KC, I didn’t compare Evangelicals to Islam, but an aspect of Evangelicals. There is a big difference. If I criticize the Catholic Church for complimenting Islam, this by no means I compare Catholics to Islam. You need to be careful here not to go beyond what I wrote. But such is the world we live in today, people are quick to judge while they say “do not judge”.

          • KC

            Be it an “aspect” of Evangelicals, or otherwise, the key word you use is “criticize.” It is your critical persona that was, by far, the major point I made to you. You make no mention of the methods you enlist, on this site, as being contrary to the teachings of scripture. In fact, your latest headlines continue to spark the decent that you seem to flourish on. “But such is the world we live in today, people are quick to judge while they say ‘do not judge'”? Somehow this coming from one whose headlines make continuous, blanket judgments towards people, or groups of people, doesn’t hold quite the punch that it should. “You need to be careful here not to go beyond what I wrote.” Not a problem, Walid– the “spirit” of this site is not something I plan to further engage in.

            A short-lived, but now disillusioned fan,

          • Somehow this coming from one whose headlines make continuous, blanket judgments towards people, or groups of people, doesn’t hold quite the punch that it should.
            KC…I think your reading a bit more into this article while he is simply comparing the different iconic attributes of the various religions. Much of Christianity has their flawed doctrines when it comes to proper biblical interpretation….Look I do not think that Walid is criticizing Christianity per say out of dislike but merely in a roundabout way exposing it how it varies from biblical doctrine…the bible instructs us to do just that. In other words he is kindly exposing its flawed doctrines and for someone like you to get offended at such a proposition reflects on your unwillingness to accept change when it comes to knowing the truth of how God wants us to worship him…Walid does not have a so called herd mentality like you do and is only saying that we should look to God’s word for guidance and not go smoothly along with the traditions of men which is what much of mainstream Christianity is based on…I think you need to learn to lighten up a bit.

          • KC

            My comment (you quoted) did not just result from yesterday’s article. It is a culmination of my whole experience on this website for the past two weeks. Thank you, though, for confirming to me, by the tone of your comments, why my decision to not engage on this website anymore, is the right decision for me. I disagree with the methods, the tone, and a lot of the theology by the way, that Walid & Ted use to try to “instruct” their readers, finding it contrary to scripture. But you’re entitled to your fond opinion here, just as I’m entitled to move on.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It’s really sad you feel that way. If people with different views can’t compare them, how do we know who’s right. You just accused Ted and Walid of being contrary to scripture in their theology. Why don’t you make a list of the things you believe they are wrong in, see if they can bring scripture to bear, instead of just bailing out?

          • KC

            Julie, I came to this website thinking it was a discussion forum on the topic of prophecy. The kinds of theology differences that are being flung around here do not get solved (IMO) by making a list– they are the kinds of issues that are deep rooted & have been around for centuries. Some people like to engage in these kinds of “discussions,” but would you agree that we all have different personalities & life circumstances? My personality is one which doesn’t like conflict– I like to try to build on commonness (our faith in Christ), not debate differences. And my life circumstances are such that I find unneccessary stress, just that, unnecessary. I pointed out to Walid, with scripture, where I believed he is in error with the methods he uses to engage his readers– he had no comment. So, it’s fine to say “make a list,” but the nature of the beast in Internet bogs is… ‘You may be right, but if I ignore your comment it’ll just die right here.’ I seriously doubt if anyone has had any of their theology changed here. I try to live by the thought that my ultimate purpose in life is to live a life “worthy of Christ,” & to sum that life up it means you don’t cut someone’s nose off (insults & arguing), but then ask them to smell a rose (know Christ). I’m not seeing discussion of prophecy, or the knowledge of Christ being shared here. But that’s just my opinion. God bless.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            KC, I respect everything you are saying, but I think you expect cookie-cutter people, and that has never happened in all of human history. Even the bible has a far ranging display of characters from one end of the spectrum to another. You say you don’t like conflict- most don’t, but its a bit unfair for you to expect a person to change their personality so they don’t stress you.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Plus, you say you are wanting to see a discussion of prophecy. This particular article were threading on doesn’t pertain to prophecy, others do. Maybe you just got on the wrong page, that’s all. Im sure I come off as defensive and offensive, but I’ve had darts in my back all my life because I’m Catholic. I live in a state with less than 10% Catholic, so its not even a “fair” game when it comes to piling on top.

          • KC

            “Cookie cutter people”? Obviously you didn’t catch my last response to Walid. I embrace the diversities that exist between the different denominations that all worship Jesus Christ as Lord. I simply think we should build on unity instead of duking it out over differences. Nobodies asking you to change your personality Julie. I was simply explaining why I don’t like to engage in these hostile exchanges and why I find them purposeless— and I ended with, “that’s my opinion.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            By “cookie-cutter people”, the implication is their personalities, NOT their denominations. Read my statement again and I think you’ll realize that was the point I was making.

          • KC

            My interpretation mistake on what you meant, and I assume you understand when I said… ‘I was simply explaining why I don’t like to engage in these hostile exchanges and why I find them purposeless— and I ended with, “that’s my opinion.”‘

          • KC

            Without going into detail I’ll just tell you I understand what being in a minority is like. The Bible is full of references about us suffering for our faith– it’s to be expected, and will be rewarded, if indeed, our suffering is for Him and not for our own self righteousness. Yes, I’m sure Walid does articles on prophecy and I’ll keep my eye out for those.

          • shoebat

            Actually KC I am working hard in sifting people so that the chaff does not engage my website. The numbers are growing and I am concerned to keep it to a small lean and mean narrow gate.

          • KC

            Walid,
            You are a highly intelligent man who has endured the kind of loss (because of your faith) that most of us only read about in books. You have a ministry that saves Christians from persecution, so, while many “talk” about making a difference, you’re out there actually doing it. I’ve watched several of your prophecy & interview (online) videos & radio Q&A “interrogations” you’ve been through. I think I’m a pretty good judge of character & what, initially, interested me in your presentations was your, “no bones about it” style. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you in terms of knowing that you are a man of compassion/passion for your causes.

            (IMO) For the most part, the people who will visit your website will already be Christians– most likely, they are true, Christ honoring believers, because most false sheep don’t have an interest in prophecy. I understand some are disingenuous & others just out to cause trouble– that’s a given in today’s world. But, Walid, if I am a true follower of Christ (no matter what denomination I might be) & I come to your website to see if you can teach me more about God’s prophetic word, or to engage in discussion about current headlines, how is it that I’m going away feeling like I’ve been brow beat? I guess I just don’t equate arguing over the historosity of the Catholic Church as being something that helps separate the “chaff.” Separating the chaff would be letting those who reject the Gospel fall to the floor. But for those of us who accept the Truth in Christ, why is there not a place for all of us on your website? Is it because Catholics have had a raw deal for far too long? Ok, it’s your website, if that’s what your mission has become, so be it.

            I have suggested that the disillusion, for many who visit, sets in because the atmosphere is not one that is conducive to mutual, respectful learning. “If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” (Gal 5:15)

            You’ve been given a huge opportunity in this website to bring people, from all walks of life, together, in a common desire to grow & understand God’s prophetic word, in, what many believe, are the last days. Your visitor numbers may be growing, but I pray it’s for the right reasons. I hope there’s a way to combine your passion, intellect & opportunity & make this a place people can come to to learn & engage, without feeling like the “no bones” style means having a few bones broken.
            Respectfully,

          • shoebat

            KC, my friend, first of all let me explain one thing; we exist to deliver financial help to the most suffering Christians in the world. We take the highest profile cases in the world and with the fraction of what others spend can stretch a buck to go a mile. We prefer that the donators deliver it themselves so they can see and experience what this is all about. We are simply a conduit. On daily basis I get emails from donors who threaten to pull out unless we play their theological tune. So many act as if they are the ones doing us a favor. What difference should my theological views have with aiding the suffering? I could care less that if a Muslim helps a suffering Christian, would I complain? Your first mistake is this “the people who will visit your website will already be Christians– most likely, they are true, Christ honoring believers”. This is utterly false KC. So many are backbiting, slanderous and hate mongers. But you cannot see it as I do. You wonder why we bring issues that many consider “divisive” and why we fight for the rights of Catholics? To answer this would take a decade, but once you see what I see, you will finally understand. The issue of Catholic Protestant/Evangelical divide is a crucial one. Here, I will gave you one small example and it has to do with Antichrist. Just think about one small issue, if one thinks that Gog is Russia, and its not, and one thinks that the Catholic Church and Rome is Harlot and its not, what would the outcome be when Islam rises against Russia and Rome? What will so many Evangelicals do? Will they stand with Russia and Rome? No, they will cheer the Muslim to kill the Orthodox and the Catholic. This actually happened at the Battle of Lepanto. Protestants missed out on one of the greatest battles in history and sent Protestant troops to fight alongside the Muslims against the Catholic alliance. This is a load in itself for you to digest. Please do not take a few seconds and respond haphazardly, but contemplate on what I said here. All the best. Walid Shoebat.

          • Corinna Morris

            May I ask what is your criteria of chaff? In pulling up chaff could you not also be pulling up wheat? Perhaps that’s why Jesus waits till the end to decide?
            Matthew 13:28 “He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’
            29 “But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
            30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ‘ “

          • shoebat

            Matthew 13 is not about blogs Corinna

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            (Chaff is the inedible part of the wheat, separated by threshing. It is not something that is “pulled up.” It is “blown away” — or burned (as St John Baptist said, making reference to the Threshing Floor of Araunah the Jebusite, then occupied by the Temple in Jerusalem!)

          • shoebat

            KC, I have a “critical persona”? I am “judgmental”? What else am I ? What more do you want to say about me? Indeed, this is the place to dish it all out. Go ahead, be my guest.

          • Corinna Morris

            Me too KC. I’m praising God for revealing true character though.

          • Corinna Morris

            Judge appears 188 in 170 verses. The scriptures are clear we are not to be hypocrites. We are to use righteous judgement and not be doing the very thing that we are telling someone else not to do. “Judge not lest you be judged” is by far one of the most misquoted scriptures and primarily used by hypocrites themselves. They are judging at the same time they are telling someone else not to.
            Let’s see what that verse really says:
            Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
            2 “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
            3 “And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
            4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
            5 “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
            That verse is telling us not to be a Hypocrite Walid.
            Luke 12:57 “Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?
            John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            do these verses apply to everybody including you?

          • Corinna Morris

            I am in 100% agreement with you sister. Amen!

        • Corinna Morris

          Come let us reason together would start out with this is RIGHT and this is WRONG? That’s reasoning? That doesn’t sound reasonable to me. lol
          She said she finds it offensive, does that offend you for her to say that? You told me “I apparently failed” and “I intentionally” failed in the same paragraph. Then wished me luck. lol Apparently you made assumptions and perhaps you really don’t know my intentions. To which I reply, you are right, I fail at many things. Thank you for pointing that out twice.
          So let’s reason together you and I… Perhaps, people’s impressions of your replies are not so favorable? Perhaps its coming across to people that are not in agreement or have questions or concerns, that you are on the defense instead of just trying to answer the questions or concerns, to the best of your ability, as the teacher? Would that be reasonable?
          Would I be wrong if this is my impression? This is the first time I have had disagreement and questions to one of your posts. All my comments on posts thus far have been of thanks and appreciation. I know it’s tough to post things that you work on for a long time and then have to read that not everyone in the world agrees with you. Perhaps we can all learn something here and grow. Where two agree, one is redundant any way. So I’ll go first, I’m sorry if my words were offensive or hurtful to you Walid. I’m not trying to be offensive. I’m trying to be truthful. I’m seeking more information before I make a conclusion regarding this issue. I seek scriptural basis for everything so as not to be deceived. You don’t want any of us being deceived. Perhaps we can do a further study on the use of icons, in the church and see what scriptures confirm this?
          Thank you, and God bless you.

          • shoebat

            Corinna, I am not easily offended. I have the skin of an alligator. You talk about leaning and growing. This is a good thing. The problem in America is that people judge one another on how they come across instead of simply answering issues. Take a look at Julie. She usually responds to everything with INCORRECT, YOUR WRONG … she is cut and dry. But instead of people examine what she writes, they either ignore or paint her as rude when she is not. But just take a look at Christ and how he judges. He is CUT and DRY just like Julie. He divides sheep from goats. If Jesus is in America, He would be viewed as “not such a nice guy”. Show me where in Scripture where Jesus smiled? In most of these verses he wept, he bled, he reprimanded … look at what KC tells Julie below “do you really believe God, after sending His Son to the Cross, cares one iota if you do, or do not, carry a hankerchief into your place of worship?” Indeed I do. Jesus honored the lady that touched His garment. God honored the sick who were under the shadow of Peter. These things are in Scripture. Here we have Julie, who is not a sola-scripturist defend Scripture more that the sola-scripturist. Indeed, Jesus cares about the handkerchief if the purpose of that handkerchief is to honor Him. I can bring thousands of examples on how God cared at what many think He should not. Let me tell you, the ones who cared about one verse, that Messiah comes riding a donkey and not a horse, these ended up saved. The common tradition at the time of Jesus was that Messiah will ride a horse. He came on a donkey as Zechariah predicted. This difference between the horse and the donkey was salvation, just as it was the difference between vegetables and animals in the stories of Cain and Abel. Can you imagine of you were there and the Bible was not written yet, you might argue with Abel, why would God care about killing animals? Spare the animals and sacrifice some fruit. God’s thoughts are not like ours. It is time to tune in God’s mind by plugging into His Spirit.

          • Corinna Morris

            Galations 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
            20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
            21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
            22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
            23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
            24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
            25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
            26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
            I’m afraid you are defending the wrong person, scripturally speaking.

          • shoebat

            Corinna, am I an adulterous unclean lewd idolator sorceror hating fornicator? Am I a hater contentious wrath filled selfish dissenter and a murdering drunk reviling heretic? Am I un-peaceful un-gentle un-joyful conceited hate provoking maniac? Thank you for revealing to me how awful I am and God bless you.

          • Corinna Morris

            Walid, I never said you were any of the works of the flesh or the works of the Spirit. Only God can show you your heart. It wasn’t posted with your name saying Walid this is you. You defended Julie against KC. I put what the scriptures says about the works of the flesh vs the spirit and I conclude scripturally. you are defending the wrong one. Then you take it personal as if it was for you.

          • Corinna Morris

            Please read the comment before that you posted to me. Jesus decides the sheep from the goats at the end. You are human and un equipped to divide sheep’s from goats. Unless someone is using blaspheme against Gods Holy name or swearing how can you know who is a sheep or a goat?
            Is this the criteria you are using?
            The Sheep and the Goats
            Matthew 25:
            31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

            34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

            37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

            40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

          • shoebat

            You pasted verses and a statement. I wasn’t sure who it was for. I was trying to say this “can you be clear?” someone could get paranoid (like myself) and take it the wrong way. No harm done.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So Walid is wrong to defend me or I am missing something

          • benvad

            She’s ignoring you.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That’s the MO of rock throwers.

          • 1Prophet

            Shoebat…I keep seeing you refer to you! I. me. Who cares? What about Jesus? What about Gospel TRUTH! The Word of God. What is happening here that you call chaff, God calls refined gold where the dross has been burned away. These are not “personal attacks” But righteous men & women that contend for the purity of the Word of God as opposed to hearsay! It not you, but your doctrines of demons. God love you just as much as He loves me, but He doesn’t love your sin! Neither do I! Your word purge is the same word used by Mao TeDung, Stalin, Hitler & Pol Pot that justified murder!

      • I used to be an iconoclast, myself, KC. What iconoclasm breeds in people is a disdain for the sacred in the visual, aural and olfactory senses. God created those senses in us as part of our make up. God’s truth is seen, it is felt, it is smelled and heard in beautiful works of art, music, incense, etc. To limit only our relationship to God to the Bible is to cut off all that He has created us to enjoy.
        When I became a Catholic, last year, I realized just how much I was missing in my senses in seeing God present in nature and that which we do as an extension of being created in the image of God. If you ever get a chance to smell chrysm oil, and listening to Bach being sung at a Mass, you might begin to understand.

        • KC

          Mme — I am, both, visually & hearing impaired. Understanding the blessedness of our senses is not something I take for granted, nor do I condemn anyone for wanting to experience a fullness of our God-created-senses during worship. You said, “To limit only our relationship to God to the Bible is to cut off all that He has created us to enjoy.” This comment does not speak to my objections of the posting of this article. I took issue with Walid’s comparison of Evangelicals to Islam. And, I took issue with the premise of posting such an article as this one in the first place, because you only have to look at the responses to know these kinds of topics are a guarantee of divisiveness. As I said elsewhere on this thread, if it isn’t an attitude of idle worship, icons are a matter of personal preference– God knows the attitude of our hearts. But please don’t tell me that my theology is like Islam because I don’t need, or don’t want to use icons on Sunday morning. My relationship to Christ is not “limited” because I don’t burn incense, or listen to Bach at church. As long as you aren’t worshipping the emotional feelings of these things instead of worshiping God Himself, I would never tell you you shouldn’t engage in them. I stand a good chance of going completely blind & deaf before I stand before the Lord. My senses are precious to me– I take in as much of God’s created world as I can as often as I can. In my opinion, it is my heart attitude during worship & relationship with Him that I will have to give an account for– not, “to icon or not to icon.”

          • On this point, you get no argument from me. I suppose I was just showing how I came from an iconoclastic position to one that accepts it.

        • krinks

          What you have just described is idolatry.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            according to you.

          • Mila

            Nahhhh idolatry is when one loves… say… money more than God. And not when one uses one senses to think, feel, devote, adore, praise God.

      • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

        Islam impacted the Christians in the Middle East with its rigid Iconoclasm. And YET, Muhammad himself, upon capturing Mecca in 630, entered the Ka’aba and held his own hands over an ikon of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Christ her Son, to preserve it, while all other paintings were being destroyed at his orders; that included even a mural of Abraham, allegedly his own ancestor! Even 50 years later, Arab historians say the Ikon of the Virgin and Child still existed inside the Ka’aba. Yet depite this, Muslims became iconoclasts. Their doctrine spread to some on the edge of the Byzantine Empire, and for a time the iconoclast emperors were in power. But they were defying the teaching of St Paul, that CHRIST is the IKON of the Invisible God. (You see JESUS, you see GOD.) And JESUS left His Own Image for us on His Shroud. GOD does not disapprove of Ikons!

        The Western Christians never had such a battle to define the ikons as Eastern Christians did. Gradually, during the era called “The Renaissance”, Western Christian art lost its theological moorings, & became somewhat “wild”. Bishop John Jewel said that some women’s prayer books had pictures of St Mary Magdalene, “Not when she repented of her sins, but when she played the harlot!” — That wasn’t Church teaching, but the “artistic license” taken by some painters! But it provoked the iconoclasm of the Protestant Revolt. Protestant rhetoric often did not know where to stop; not only abuses were attacked, but even wholesome illustrations! They “threw out the Baby” — but kept the bathwater — dirty lies told against good and honest Catholic practice, completely in keeping with Biblical teaching. — This is what Walid has been trying to get some folks to SEE! So don’t be hostile toward him. Just open your eyes! Awake!
        True ikons are “Theology in Color.” They are not worshipped; but they can truly assist us in “looking Godward.” — and some have even led to the conversion of Muslims to Christ! PRAISE GOD!

        • KC

          I am not against icons which I mention several times in posts on this article thread. Perhaps if Walid had posted an article containing the information you just gave me, instead of, antagonistically, labeling his article the way he did, and then comparing this aspect of Evangelicals to Islam– many would not have been offended. If you read any of my subsequent discussion with Walid– you will see that, by far, my issue with him was NOT the topic of icons, but is the way Walid goes about presenting his “teachings.” There is a way to bring all believers together, in a spirit of unity, which I think he has such a unique opportunity to do. But I don’t see that happening on his site. Many come there seeking to learn more about prophecy only to have abrasive headlines & divisive issues “discussed” with insult flinging. I realize many don’t find him, or his site, offensive, but I happen not to be one of them. I pointed out, in scripture, why I believe his methods are contrary to scripture. To each his own, yes? Thanks for taking the time to “inform” me, but it really wasn’t necessary, as I said, I have no issue with icons if the worshipper isn’t worshiping the icons instead of God.

    • AnthonyM

      Yes, good article Walid. I enjoy reading well researched articles, but some minds are closed. Have you done an article on Chris-lam? Is that a real term?

      • prodigal

        Let us get this straight. Believers are on this site and they are closed minded?

      • shoebat

        Yes, just search Shoebat and Chrislam on google

    • prodigal

      What if she totally debunked you idol argument? Would anyone be changed?

    • Corinna Morris

      Acts 17;11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the “Scriptures” daily to find out whether these things were so. (Emphasis added)

      Actually, I read your article 4 times Walid and I am desperately seeking Gods wisdom, in this matter. I want the truth in all things. But I do fail at many things, so you are probably still correct to point that out, twice.

      My biggest question or concern is, how does this bring glory To Jesus Christ and is this uniting the church or helping to divide it more? The usage of RIGHT vs WRONG, in the title seems clear to bring division.

      (1 Timothy 6:4-he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,)
      And:
      (1Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.)

      You say all these churches used icons and incense… What are all these churches? What scriptures confirm this?
      Weren’t there 7 letters to 7 churches 1st century AD, and 5 of them Jesus had things against them? Including one had left their first love? Can we really base anything on church history or archeology without scripture confirming it to be true?

      You say: They all (even including Jesus and the apostles) used the Deuterocanonical books that are in Catholic bibles. They all had priests, altars, images and saints. What scripture confirms this? When did the scriptures in the Catholic bibles come to be? Perhaps the Catholic bibles are using Jesus words and not the other way around? Who is they all had priests, altars, images and saints? What scripture confirms this?

      Teacher, you have brought some mighty strong claims and accusations and I don’t think asking you to provide scriptural evidence for these claims is trying to “debunk” the article or out of line, when this has the potential of leading or misleading many.

      So I will rephrase, please give us “scriptures” from the “entire Bible”, that tells us, followers of Christ, to make for “ourselves” or for our “assembling together” images, icons, statues or likenesses of any kind. I’m following Acts 17:11, being like a Berean, as I am told to do.

      I don’t believe luck is scriptural either teacher, but I do believe prayer is. I am confident that the Holy Spirit is able to bring clarity based on scriptural evidence. I pray all who read this do like the Berean’s and search the scriptures daily to see if these things be so.
      Thank you, once again. Grace and peace be with you, from our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.

      • Somekindofpatriot

        Right again Corinna, When Jerome first translated the Old Testament into Latin he refused to include several books within the main body of Scriptures. Instead he established a separate section he named “The Apocrypha”. The books in the Apocrypha were written after the Canon of the Hebrew Bible was complete (about 425 B.C). The word apocrypha means “hidden, or secret” but due to their doubtful authenticity the word has come to mean “fraudulent, or forged” by some scholars.

        Although some feel there are many more, the Apocrypha is normally made up of fourteen books which are found in Greek and Latin translations but never in the Hebrew Old Testament.. Only 11 of these are included in the Catholic Bible today but all 14 can still be found in the Orthodox Bible.

        The Apocrypha was removed from the Protestant Bible altogether at the time of the Reformation. Here are several reasons why many Christian authorities reject the writings of the Apocrypha:

        1. The Apocrypha was never in the Hebrew Canon.

        2. Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the New Testament writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha. (Jude mentioned Enoch, but Enoch was not the author of the books that bear his name.)

        3. Josephus (a well-known historian from the Biblical era) excluded them from his list of sacred scripture. He felt they were lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin.

        4. During the first four centuries there was no mention made of the Apocrypha in any catalog or canonical book. They were believed to be slipped in during the fifth century. There are reputed to be 263 quotations and 370 allusions to the
        Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them refers to the Apocryphal writings.

        5. The books of the Apocrypha were never asserted to be divinely inspired or to possess divine authority in their contents.

        6. No prophets were connected with these writings. Each book of the Old Testament was written by a man who was a prophet.

        7. These books are replete with historical, geographical and chronological errors. In order to accept the Apocrypha one would have to reject the Old Testament narratives.

        8. The Apocryphal doctrines and practices are often contrary to the Canon of Scripture.

        There is some historical insight to be gained from the Apocrypha, since they were written in the time between the Old and New Testaments. But extreme caution must be exercised. These books weren’t written by the people whose names are mentioned in their titles, and they are neither theologically nor historically accurate. You should test the things they say against other reliable sources before accepting them as valid.

        • Rexlion

          I agree. Walid’s statement that “They all (even including Jesus and the apostles) used the Deuterocanonical books that are in Catholic bibles” is made without any hard evidence or references.

          • shoebat

            Your correct Rexlion, but if I did, the article will be so long. They tell me to keep my articles less then 1000 words or else the audience will loose steam. In another decade from now, it will be 500 words or less, or even perhaps a Twitter line will suffice.

          • shoebat

            Somekindofpatriot, you write ‘sounding’ knowledgable, but what you intentionally forgot to mention is that you simply cut and paste this nonsense from: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-books-of-the-bible/

            Now that you endorced such statements, please provide a single shred of references to anything you pasted here. You can’t since now you have to think for yourself instead of having someone else think for you. Almost every line is littered with historic error. So before I waste much time, I must require you to include references to your claims. It is then that we can easily show how erronious are such assertions which you blindly trusted from some blog that wanted to sound ‘knowledgable’. My prediction is that you will not because you can’t. In fact,

            The core issue becomes is this; who is the authority to decide on what is and what is not Scripture; Luther, the Puritans, the Jews, or the Catholic Church?

            This is a Jesus style checkmate question, for if you say Luther, the Puritans or the Jews, you will be in checkmate. If you choose Catholic, you will be in a greater checkmate: your king is gone and you are out of the game.

            As the Jew would say Oy Vey (woe is me)!

            Here, let me explain.

            Protestants reason that since God entrusted the
            Old Testament to the Jews, they should be the ones who determine which books belong in it. They cite Romans 3:2, which says, “The Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.”

            But the Jews had two canons; the Palestinian canon, which is identical to the Protestant Old Testament, and there was the
            Alexandrian canon—also known as the Septuagint—which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament.

            So which one do we use as the standard for sola scriptura?

            The Protestant argument goes like this; the Jews settled on the Palestinian canon in 90 AD at the Council of Jamnia.

            The Catholic counters; Indeed, but this was well after authority had passed from the Jews to the Church (Acts 4:19). It was
            also the Council of Jamnia that rejected the New Testament while Jesus and the Apostles have always used the Septuagint.

            To Jamnia or not to Jamnia? That is the question. It’s the bottom line. But to Jamnia has a major problem for all Christians; if Jamnia is authoritative then the New Testament is not an authority since Jamnia rejected the New Testament.

            There is yet another problem; there was only one authority that determined the New Testaemnt cannon that was accepted by
            Protestants, that is, the Catholic Church, that when it comes to the issue of the New Testament canon, no Christian, including Protestants who call the Catholic Church “Harlot” rejects the authority of the “Harlot” Catholic Church. This in itself proves that the Catholic Church is no “Harlot”.

            There is even yet another problem; the Septuagint’s acceptance by the early Church can be found in the New Testament itself. It quotes the Old Testament approximately 350 times. Three hundred of those quotes are from the Septuagint. If you care to know these quotes, let me know.

            Another Oy
            Vey!

            A.C. Sundberg, a Lutheran historian settles the matter:

            “It has become evident that the Septuagint circulated in Palestine. This inference was suggested to Semler (1771:1.124-128) by the use of the Septuagint in the earliest Christian writings of the New Testament … the text of these fragments, assigned to the end of the first century C.E., is most probably a recension of the Septuagint … the text of the New Testament quotations from the Old is to be found in a Palestinian Septuagint tradition. (Albert C. Sundberg Jr., The Old Testament of the Early Church Revisited, quoting from Cross 1995:128, n. 2). http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/chapter2.html)

        • KC

          Thanks for this, important facts worth mentioning.

        • Corinna Morris

          Thank you so much for that. Very informative.

        • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

          There is significant misinformation here. The “Deutero-canonical books” WERE included in the Septuagint, the Greek Bible in use before Jesus was born. This is the Bible St Paul grew up with. This Greek Old Testament was being “supplemented” by Christians before 70AD by the addition of the Gospels and Acts. This worried the Rabbis, especially after the Fall of the Temple in 70AD. By 90AD, they had agreed that “anything without a Hebrew original in hand” would not be considered Biblical. Their intent was to EXCLUDE ALL CHRISTIAN WRITING. (St Paul’s Epistles appear to have been collected and published as a group perhaps as early as 67AD. A tiny fragment of I Timothy was found in a cave at Qumran. That community was ended by 68AD.) Josephus represents Jewish thought after the Jewish War, as he was writing about 90AD.
          Jerome was taught Hebrew by a Rabbi, who did not know why I & II Maccabees were excluded (they are genuine history); he taught Jerome the prejudice lately adopted.
          Yet at Masada, one of the Sacred Texts buried in the room made into a Synagogue, on the N wall of the fortress, when they were under assault, was a scroll from the “Apocrypha,” IN HEBREW.
          And I happen to know a devout Baptist lady, Spirit-filled, whom the LORD led to honor and respect the ‘Apocrypha’ by showing her that it DID have passages of indubitable Holy Inspiration.

          The Epistle to the Hebrews, in Ch 11, refers to those who hid “in dens and caves of the earth.” This is a DIRECT QUOTE from the accounts of the Maccabean Martyrs, to whom Hebrews refers. Jesus, observing Hanukkah in the Temple, was LIVING OUT a respect for this part of His Jewish heritage.
          While Jews may not account I & II Maccabees part of the “Canon” any longer, this is still a vital part of their National Literature and Identity. It was that vital era in Jewish history where the concept of a “Priest-King” came to the fore, preparing some of the Chosen People for the Advent of our Lord.
          Our Lord alludes directly to the Book of Tobit, responding to the Sadducees, in MT 22, about the woman married to 7 brothers. He rebukes them because they “do not acknowledge the WRITINGS (tas graphas)” — the third part of the Hebrew Canon, the Khetubim. HE HIMSELF implies that Tobit is part of the Canon of Scripture. And Tobit is a profound Christ Figure!
          But that would take too long to add here.
          (“Know” frequently has the fuller sense, “acknowledge.” The Sadducees did not acknowledge anything but the Torah of Moses; not even the Prophets were part of their limited canon.)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks for bringing all this to illumination. The angel Rafael is mentioned in Tobit, and because protestants don’t have that book, they look at me crazy when I mention Rafael.

          • Wayne

            I wont waste my time responding to most of this nonsense. I will only take a second to look at what you said on Mt. 22. You attempt to persuade that Jesus was alluding directly to your book of tobit, but this is a firm example of eisegesis. You read your own idea into the Text. Jesus didn’t give two cents about your book of tobit, nor did He care if the Saducees were reading it. He was rebuking them for their disbelief in the resurrection of the dead.

            Now it is true that they gave full authority to the Torah, and that they gave a lot less authority to the Prophets and Writings. So as far as doctrine is concerned, if it was clearly found in the Torah, they believed it to be true, but if it was found in the Prophets or Writings they didn’t accept it as fact.

            This is exactly why they rejected the belief of a future resurrection of the dead, because this doctrine isn’t formed in the Torah, and this is exactly the point being discussed in Mt. 22. tobit, nor any other uninspired writing had anything to do with Jesus’ statement of them rejecting the Scriptures. Again, you are reading your own idea into the Text.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Do you realize, by your own admission, that you are trusting the books that NON-CHRISTIANS approved of? Do you know that there are 200+ plus quotes in the New Testament that are from the Septuagint, and that these “apochryphal” books were included in it? Do you know that the original King James version included the apochrypha? Do you know that there was a Hebrew version of one of these books found in the caves of Qumran?

        • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

          Actually, the books now listed as “Apocrypha” WERE part of the Hebrew Bible, whence they came into the Septuagint (LXX), when it was translated, c. 270BC. Some of the books, like the Maccabees, were written later, and WERE cited by Jesus and His first Apostles. Jesus is referring to the Book of Tobit in His argument with the Sadducees, in St Matthew 22, because they “do not acknowledge THE WRITINGS” — this was a Part of the Hebrew Bible. (This is often wrongly translated “the Scriptures”; the first part of the Hebrew Canon is ha-Torah; second is ha-Nabi’im, the Prophets; third is ha-Ketubim, the Writings.) The Letter to the Hebrews actually quotes from Maccabees, as “inspired.”
          Much of the “info” you have listed here is erroneous.
          AFTER the Fall of the Temple, Jewish leaders were afraid that copies of the Greek Bible would have CHRISTIAN texts added to them, and unsuspecting people would attribute the Same Authority to the Christian writings as they did to the Jewish.
          THIS is when they slammed the door shut, to exclude CHRISTIAN writings. This shaped Josephus’ views, etc.
          The Rabbis ruled that if the original Hebrew could not be found (it was ‘hidden away’ – apo-krypha – [like ‘crypt’]) – then it could not be included. Of course, Greek was the original language of the New Testament.
          Interestingly, several Hebrew original texts of “apocrypha” were found under the flooring of the synagogue on Masada, hidden there by the last hold-outs in the First Jewish Revolt, in 73AD.
          The rabbis just didn’t look very hard!
          If you take the time to read Ben-Sira’ for instance, you will find some true wisdom, inspired by God, superior to that in the “canonical” book of Ecclesiastes. There is a prophetic passage which describes very clearly the corrupt mind of those who attacked JESUS.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Have you asked yourself what “scripture” these Jews might be searching daily? Do you think it was the 27 books of the New Testament? The ones that weren’t canonized until the late 4th century? Or, would Paul have the Jews study the Old Testament prophets to see how everything that had occurred was prophesied of in the old testament, because it is all there.

        • Corinna Morris

          Julie, You’ve misquoted me one to many times, told me I’m wrong and that my ignorance is showing. WHY on Earth would you want to now ask me a question. That is not a question, it’s my ignorance thinking out loud. For I don’t care to hear anything that comes out of your heart via your mouth at all.
          Grace and peace be upon you from my Lord Jesus Christ.
          Matthew 12:34
          O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37
          For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Your tongue is a 2 edged sword, and your statement makes you a hypocrite and a backbiter, First, you say you don’t want to hear anything that comes out of my mouth, then in your next breath, you try to declare peace and grace on me. You should consider that all the quotes you gave above apply to you as well.

          • Corinna Morris

            I’m still praying grace and peace, from Jesus Christ, for you Julie and I pray it comes rapidly. Nevertheless, not my will but His be done

          • Julie LaBrecque

            With friends like you who needs enemies?

      • shoebat

        As far as your question on the Duetrocanonocal books see my refutation of Somekindofpatriot below. As far as biblical examples for icons, I already provided them in my article and I do not see it fit that I repeat myself. But as far as your rejection of archeology since you state the seven churches sinned, than you must ale say that the Temple in Jerusalem sinned and that God sinned since icons were required (Cherubs, Pomogranites etc…) The Temple had an icon of Moses. When Antiochus Epiphanes entered the Temple of Jerusalem, and saw a painting of a man riding on a donkey, said to be Moses, he expressed such hatred for God’s laws, and His prophet, that he sacrificed a large hog at the image of Moses and the holy altar, and not only this, he sprinkled the broth which came from the hog’s flesh on the sacred books. *Diodorus, fragment of book 34*

        • Corinna Morris

          Walid, thank you for your responses. There just are any scriptures advising, telling, encouraging, teaching the church to make use of icons. We weren’t told to make churches that look like Jewish temples. There isn’t one single scripture wherein the mention of the use of icons appears in any of the many mentions or letters to or of the church.
          I thank you again for this great study. My mind is now fully persuaded. So we just agree to disagree. I enjoy following you. I read almost every post. This is the first post I have disagreed with, so that’s not a bad track record. Iron sharpens iron. I’m not sure this will be the only post I disagree with, but that’s ok. As long as we agree, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I look forward to future discussions.
          Your sis in Christ,
          Corinna

          • shoebat

            Corinna, the way you phrase your questions is as if one asked you: I find no scriptural references in the Bible for youth pastors, organ or guitar, Sunday schools, pulpits, hymnals … Your response will be, indeed, but the Lord said for us to sing for Him joyfully, and I would agree. Here is my challenge to you: in that article I wrote, take all the Scripture verses I stated and show me where you disagree so Iron can sharpen Iron as you state?

          • Corinna Morris

            There again, answering for me as if you are clairvoyant and can read my mind and know how I will answer. There’s a lot in the churches for which there are no scriptural basis for. And I wouldn’t conclude it is going so well. I see more church swap meets, craft tables, and rock concerts and a whole bunch of empty lost people caught up in materialism, (idol worship) and living lives after the flesh. With what the people are drawn with, is what they will be drawn too. Youth pastors, guitars etc wasn’t the topic at hand. If people don’t wake up, repent and do their first works over again, so Jesus is their first love, He is going to spit us out of His mouth. There needs to be a lot more preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. We have broken everyone of His commands. We are liars, blasphemes, adulterers, thieves, haters of good and lovers of evil and He took the punishment we are due. We need to repent and put our trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, because time is running out. behold He is coming quickly. All this other malarkey the church wants to battle and divide over is utter rubbish and will burn in His presence.

  • goldhands

    Good job Walid! We have to forgive our ignorant brethren. The good thing is that the Evangelical movement is a new fad and hopefully will disappear soon. Division among the brethren is not good and evangelicals have brought the majority of it to the body of Christ. Evangelicals are probably some of the most judgmental and unloving of all the body of Christ. What I’ve noticed most is the their reliance on feelings rather than faith…too bad. As for icons…we all have icons of one sort or the other. Our icons are hidden in our hearts yet manifest themselves in our driveways as cars, at the dock as a boat, or on our tv screens in the form of an athlete or athletic team….the list goes on and on. And what about THAT image of the beast spoken about in the Book of Revelation? Could that image be in the palm of our hand in the form of cell phone? The list goes on and on because the issue of icons is in our hearts. Jesus came to explain that the heart of man is where the action is occurring. The action is not occurring in the 3D!!! The actions in this 3-dimensional world is first occurred in someones heart. “Let he or she who has no icons in their heart be the first to judge Walid or any others icons.” How dare we who are the generation of the “selfie” judge Walid or anyone who wishes to have an image of his choice. It is not like Walid is talking about an icon of Lucifer or some other demon of hell. Is not pornography and pornographic images the same as images of the goddess Diana? How much pornography do evangelicals watch? To judge a person because they are inspired to serve God better because they venerate an image or icon is quite irrational. I heard of a man once who wanted to someday buy and own a certain car when he graduated from college and he carried this ‘image’ of the car with him, looking at it often; after graduating from college and securing a good job he indeed bought that car. If looking at and venerating an image can help someone get to heaven who are we or anyone to judge? Jesus Christ died on the cross and shed His blood to set us free some these childish discussions. Jesus Christ died to set us free from the Law…for this I am glad because I like bacon from time to time. How many consider that if we lived at the time of Christ He was bound by the Law to to associate with us Gentiles? Jewish Rabbis did’nt get buddy buddy with Gentiles!!! Jesus was bound by the Law to avoid Gentiles. THANK GOD WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW! In Christ all things are permissable-even images and icons!!! Icons and images are probably the reason I feel very peaceful when inside of a Catholic or Russian Orthodox church. It’s like the very air has reverence for the Christian images and icons. When I walk into an Evangelical church it is not the same and it’s like something is missing. Tongue and cheek: Evangelicals have their icons alright: Joyce Myers, Benny Hinn, The Crouches, Greg Laurie, Joel Olsteen and many others. What about trips to Israel? Is not a trip to Israel and holy places making Israel and the holy places Icons unto themselves? I mean isn’t it a little weird that Christians go the tomb where Jesus died? Isn’t that the same as hanging out at a cemetery? A little weird to hang out at the tomb of the RISEN Christ if you as me. Go ahead and judge Evangelicals because that is what you do best…..no wonder church attendance in the United States is dropping at an alarming rate. Instead of worrying about Walid and his icons why don’t you concern yourself with the witchcraft of control and manipulation that have entered into the Church along with materialism and pleasure seeking?

  • goldhands

    Very creative: you copy and paste a post. Obviously you have no inspiration from the Holy Spirit and lack all understanding concerning the things of Christ. God have mercy on your soul.

    • Therese

      Goldhands,
      Corinna is not ATTACKING anybody.

  • goldhands

    Who made you judge, jury and executioner? Yourself? God forgive your ignorance. I’m sure your IQ matches your shoe size. Smile.

    • Therese

      Read you Bible it is all there.
      Jesus says to judge for ourselves what is right and what it wrong.
      We are also told to have self control and not to insult each other. Your personal attacks are uncalled for.
      All Judgement will ultimately be up to Christ Jesus. However, we need to exercise judgement so that we do not stray from the narrow path.

      • Woody

        I like your post, and your name, I just love.

    • Woody

      Now this is really SOS “she was not there,’ must be a public school graduate, wanna bet. I was not in WWII, but I believe it; I was not in the Civil War but I believe it; There is nothing “Gold” about your hands or mind; she is just so much smarter than you–and you are”irked” because you know it.

      • goldhands

        I forgive you Woody for your comments. You are absolutely correct about me and my intelligence-I’m not the smartest guy in the world. It’s all about love and loving each other and God anyway. Christian religious icons, and images are really petty things to get concerned about. Jesus came to show us that we are all missing the mark and it’s more about what he did than what we do. He knew millions and millions of years ago what “we” would do with Christianity and I’m sure He will figure it all out in the end-And I don’t think He plans on loosing any of us who place our faith in Him.

        • Woody

          Yes, and that is why He gave One man “the Keys” and promised to be with him until the “End of Days.” And He did not want to leave us, but He had to do His Father’s Will, so in His Divine Mercy – He did both-He left, (His death on the Cross for us) AND He stayed, (giving us His Body and Blood Soul and Divinity), each day of our lives–the greatest Miracle known to Man; but even then the First Protesters, rejected Him (they turned away from His Gift, saying “This is a Hard saying,” (John VI), and they turned away because they certainly took Him “literarily;” for — note that He did not run after them, “shouting, no!, no! You misunderstand me.” No–they heard Him right, and He let them go, instead, turning to St Peter, and asked him and the motley band of First Bishops, the Apostles…you gonna leave me too. “To Whom shall we go, ” Peter answered.
          And images I do not believe are “petty” things, but are like the pictures many believers and non-believers have in their homes – they are “reminders” of those that we love. They “assist” in meditations of Our Lord’s passion…(ask the Saints such as St. John of the Cross–but each saint had is, or her favorite meditation which enhanced their prayer-life.
          and yes, He of all people knew that we are a Hospital for sinners and that is also why He gave us the Sacrament of Penance, once again saying to His Apostles, “Whose sins ye shall forgive ARE forgiven them; who sins ye shall retain ARE retained.” The only way to make this kind of “assessment” is to “hear the sinner.” I am sure He will figure it out. And Thank you, Jesus once again for the two greatest miracles known to man’ it proves I know that you Love us (but note that I am not spurning the other five) I just have my favorites – a sinner. {I did notice the Pope last week dropping out of line to rush to a confessional interrupting his procession – (as an aside-I hope the lowly priest forgave him–a joke)
          God Bless, and have a nice day…

        • Woody

          Meditation of the Day

          “The last degree of love is when He
          [Jesus] gave Himself to us to be our Food; because He gave Himself to be united
          with us in every way. ”

          — St. Bernardine of Siena – 1380 – 1444

          “Nothing is mere
          coincidence; everything that happens is contained in the Word of God and
          sustained by his divine plan. The Lord passes through all the stages and steps
          of humanity’s fall from grace, yet each of these steps, for all its bitterness,
          becomes a step toward our redemption: this is how he carries home the lost
          sheep.”

          — Pope Benedict XVI

  • goldhands

    You are an ignorant man. We are not under the Old Testament. You cannot use the Old Testament to make your argument. God have mercy on your soul. How dare you attack Walid. Who are you?

    • Wayne

      But Walid is using the O.T. to make his argument, and you are okay with that. Just look at Walid’s above comment. Which is it with you?

      • shoebat

        Abrogation is a Muslim and not a Christian practice. God never abrogated the O.T. People who do that do it to support a heresy. Hitler abrogated the O.T. One cannot make a blanket statement “its O.T” and by this they ignore biblical mandates. Icons are described in all of Scripture Old and New. Incense too. Do you hate incense in a worship service Wayne?

  • Wayne

    A link to this article should be put under the definition of the word “eisegesis” in the dictionary. Shoebat’s credibility continues to crumble. Sad times!

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Read God’s word in its CONTEXT. Surely God would not make a prohibition (as you understand it), and later tell the SAME people to do the very thing he commanded them not to do.

      • Wayne

        Julie, I am reading it in CONTEXT. Walid’s article, and those who agree with it, are the ones failing to see the CONTEXT! The CONTEXT of articles of the Tabernacle and/or Temple CANNOT be equated to veneration of IDOLS by the Catholic Church! That’s your CONTEXT! Why do you fail to see that you are the one not reading these things in CONTEXT? Unbelievable!

        • Steve Smith

          ICONS ARE NOT IDOLS

          • Wayne

            Uhh, yeah, okay. Whatever you say Stevie.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Can you address God commanding “images”, graven at that, to be made? PLEASE explain this in light of your belief.

          • Wayne

            Every piece of the Tabernacle pointed to Christ. You need to remember that God does not change! What God commanded to be made was done for a specific reason. These things were “types” of the yet future Messiah. What you and those you stand with here need to do in order to justify your “images” that you bow down before is that God commanded it to be done. You cant do this. All you can do is show proof of how past idolaters did it, but you cannot show that it was ever instructed or sanctioned in either Testament. And while you keep screaming “context”, you need to realize that you are the one that’s completely ignoring it.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Not every piece in the tabernacle pointed to Christ. For starters, how could He be the Ark? He was IN THE ARK. Can you recall the 3 items that were in the ark? 3 items inside the Ark : 1. God’s word in STONE (the tablets), 2. a cup of the Manna (bread from heaven) 3. Aaron’s rod that budded (sign of the true high priest). Let’s now compare those 3 items as they relate to what was in Mary’s womb: Jesus 1. Jesus is the Word of God IN FLESH. 2. He is the “TRUE BREAD SENT FROM HEAVEN” (according to John 6) 3. Jesus is the True High Priest. Where was Jesus? In Mary’s womb, the Ark.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you forgetting that King David Leapt and danced for joy when the Ark was coming to him?

    • shoebat

      Very strange, my credibility is growing leaps and bounds by the day. What is also strange is that you say that I “intimidated” you and now you seem to be mumbling negative sentiments about me. Could it be possible that you are guilty of the very things you accuse me of? Perhaps you need to examine your heart Wayne and ask why you are being negative here.

  • Wayne

    Amen Corinna. Keep speaking the truth. And don’t let Walid push you around or intimidate you. He’s good at that with anyone who doesn’t fall in line with everything he says. I know from first hand experience. Hang around here long and object to anything he says and you will have that experience as well.

    • Steve Smith

      Wayne lets hope God offers us an onion.

      Once upon a time there was a peasant woman and a very wicked woman she was. And she died and did not leave a single good deed behind. The devils caught her and plunged her into the lake of fire. So her guardian angel stood and wondered what good deed of hers he could remember to tell to God; ‘She once pulled up an onion in her garden,’ said he, ‘and gave it to a beggar woman.’ And God answered: ‘You take that onion then, hold it out to her in the lake, and let her take hold and be pulled out. And if you can pull her out of the lake, let her come to Paradise, but if the onion breaks, then the woman must stay where she is.’ The angel ran to the woman and held out the onion to her. ‘Come,’ said he, ‘catch hold and I’ll pull you out.’ he began cautiously pulling her out. He had just pulled her right out, when the other sinners in the lake, seeing how she was being drawn out, began catching hold of her so as to be pulled out with her. But she was a very wicked woman and she began kicking them. ‘I’m to be pulled out, not you. It’s my onion, not yours.’ As soon as she said that, the onion broke. And the woman fell into the lake and she is burning there to this day. So the angel wept and went away.

      • Wayne

        Keep your onion, I’ll apply The Blood.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          You say you will apply the blood. Do you drink the blood as Jesus commanded?

          • Wayne

            Don’t get me started on your cannibalistic “Transubstantiation”! I know you want to start quoting John 6, and that’s fine. But then after you do, answer me this: Do you eat rocks too?

            1 Cor. 10:4 “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

          • Steve Smith

            Funny that is what the muslims say we are….. cannibals

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So did the Romans and other pagans, read history written by non-Christians! Apparently the first Christians believed they were eating his flesh and drinking his blood or else the accusation couldn’t have been made! Amen. If anybody wants to doubt that the Eucharist isn’t a sacrifice, read Malachi 1:11, starts after God has asked for someone to close the temple gates (which happened in 70 AD), he declares “From the rising of the sun to its setting, my name is great amongst THE NATIONS (the gentiles now brought into covenant): INCENSE OFFERINGS (sacrifices) are made to MY NAME EVERYWHERE, and a PURE (who was pure but Jesus) OFFERING (sacrifice): for my name is great AMONGST THE NATIONS”. Now listen to this, God’s word: “But you profane it by saying that he lord’s TABLE (altar) is defiled, and ITS FOOD MAY BE DISDAINED”

          • Steve Smith

            If people could read the bible in Greek or Church Slavonic it would shock them what it really has to say. The early church fathers had a lot to say about the Holy Eucharist.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Amen to the Greek, it really is an eye opener, our English language doesn’t have words to really convey the meaning. And, yes the early church fathers wrote VOLUMES on it. Why? Because it is VITAL, and Jesus demanded it. It is so important, sadly most modern Christians deny it. The greatest spokesmen for Catholic apologetics have been former protestants (most of them were virulently anti-Catholic, i.e., Steve Ray, Scott Hahn) that saw problems in the beliefs espoused by their denomination versus what the word of God says, plus the study of the early Church fathers, those who learned from the feet of the apostles.

          • Steve Smith

            We keep holy tradition with the bible the oral history of the church and the bible keep us straight . We know what Jesus wrote in the dirt when the mob wish to stone the woman. he wrote the men’s sin that only GOD WOULD KNOW. The blind man at the pool of Bethesda in Greek he was born without eyes Jesus spit in the dirt made eyeballs and pushed them in the empty sockets, you do not get that in English bibles .

          • rnot

            But they video tape themselves eating people, as they did in Syria. I am sure it is not a new thing in islam – very few things are except the way they have a new invention done by a non-moslem made into a bomb.

          • Steve Smith

            how true, or copy something from Christians and clam it is islamic

          • Julie LaBrecque

            dingdong, water flowed from that rock.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Hello Wayne- are you there?-did the people drink from the rock?

          • shoebat

            So Julie is a cannibal? Tell you what, if you would like to present a well documented article showing why Julie is cannibal since she believes in Transubstantiation, then allow her to respond to it, I would be glad to post it. Deal?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Sounds good to me. I will anybody share with anybody “with eyes to see and ears to hear” what the Bible, from the Old testament through the new, substantiates that the bread is his flesh, and the wine is his blood.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are we going to have a Bible lesson about the flesh and blood? How about this- you bring your evidence based on the word of God, then I’ll respond in like manner.

        • shoebat

          I’d take the onion while I apply the blood. You didn’t get the parable of the onion or perhaps you did not care to appreciate the parable. What is with this “keep your onion”? speak for yourself, I will take the onion.

      • Corinna Morris

        Once upon before time, there was nothing, Nothing exploded and became everything, including an onion, which is scientifically impossible.

        In the beginning God created… That is not only scientifically possible, it’s the very laws of intelligent design we are able to do the science with in the first place. There is nothing random. There is a lot of information. Where does the information come from?

        Think about it. Use your brain to reason.

        • Steve Smith

          We get it from Christ , St Paul tells us hold to the traditions you are taught by mouth or letter Orthodox do not pick and choose what is in the bible most of us can read it in Greek or Church Slavonic or Aramaic the language of Christ our God and I do use my brain…Slavie Bog

          • Corinna Morris

            What scripture would that be Steve? You can quote it in Greek, Slavonic or Aramaic, you choose, just be sure to include the book and verse number please.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            2 Thess 2:15 ” Brothers, stand firm and HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS that you were taught, EITHER by an ORAL statement OR by a letter of ours.” 1 Cor 11:2 ” I praise you because you remember me in everything and HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS, just as I HANDED THEM ON to you.”1 Cor 11:23 “For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you….” Hebrews 13:7 “Consider the outcome of your leaders way of life and IMITATE their faith”.

          • Steve Smith

            Thanks Julie. Holy Week has started so I have not had time to reply to Corinna . Thanks for the verses it would have taken me time ,our bibles are not numbered . Don’t know what she was asking. I posted the onion parable from The Brothers Karamazov think it went over their heads it shows Gods mercy but man rejects it from greed and spite. have a blessed Holy Week ….Slavie Bog = Glory to God

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’re very welcome. Palm Sunday is tomorrow for us. Lent seems to have been long this year to me. Maybe its all the desert I gave up that has made it seem so long! Every time I’m tempted, I just hearken back to Jesus’s flesh being ripped off, the thorns on his head, and the nails through his hands and feet. Then I really feel unworthy. The pain he endured for us is beyond any of ours comprehension. Happy Holy Week. God bless you and your family.

          • Corinna Morris

            By oral statement of anyone? No, of the Apostles, either by the apostles word or their letters, so it must me scriptural and what the Apostles teach will also be confirmed by the Prophets. There is no scripture telling the “Church” to use icons, in service or worship of God. If there is please post it now. Please post one scripture of a tradition any of the Apostles gave orally or in letter, to use icons in the church. After all this is the topic at hand, or are you just here to bring contentions and strife?

          • Corinna Morris

            Colosians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

          • Woody

            Where hast thou been? Two weeks you disappear? Hey, did you see Faux Catholic is back, and he is now reliving the old heresies which were resolved centuries ago. He really should not have dropped out of high school and should return and study some history. He still does not see the simple truth that “if Mary (my Mom) had said, “No” to the Angel Gabriel he would have NO Savior! Now how hard is that to understand; even Luther, Zwingli, Wesley and the other men who founded their own church, even though only Jesus had and has the authority to “found” a church and He did found His Church, thank God, with no help from us–look at the mess Faux Catholic makes. What happened to SickRent?

            Let’s dispose of Faux’s, the new Nestorian’s, heresy right now: (Below this is an historical list and statements from the smartest men in human history on the subject. Can you imagine anyone on this site’s diaper brigade even expecting to match these brilliant Theologians?

            Mary: Mother of God

            Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this
            doctrine.

            A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half
            of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus “was descended from David according to the flesh” (Rom.
            1:3).

            Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

            Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

            To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only
            carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

            The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one
            human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that
            Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the “Nestorian” church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity,
            just as other Christians do.

            Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

            The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

            Irenaeus

            “The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

            Hippolytus

            “[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (Theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

            Gregory the Wonderworker

            “For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

            “It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).

            Peter of Alexandria

            “They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

            “We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a
            body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

            Methodius

            “While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

            “Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).

            Cyril of Jerusalem

            “The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

            Ephraim the Syrian

            “Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom
            became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

            Athanasius

            “The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D.365]).

            Epiphanius of Salamis

            “Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

            Ambrose of Milan

            “The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

            Gregory of Nazianz

            “If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter
            to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

            Jerome

            “As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself
            was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

            “Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

            Theodore of Mopsuestia

            “When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

            Cyril of Alexandria

            “I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

            “This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was.
            This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh” (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D.
            430]).

            “And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh” (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

            “If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema” (ibid.).

            John Cassian

            “Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

            “You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).

            Council of Ephesus

            “We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with
            the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her” (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

            Vincent of Lerins

            “Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ” (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).

            NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.

            Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

            IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827

            permission to publish this work is hereby granted.

            G-d Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Have been in and out, here and there. So sorry to hear Sicrent is back amongst us, I so love when my replies are from/to “friends”.
            Evangelicals are closely related to gnostics – they accept that grace from God comes only spiritually-devoid of matter or form. That’s why they fight water baptism, eucharist, unction, holy orders, laying on of hands, etc.
            So what do they do with God taking on matter (coming in the flesh)? What do they do with Jesus using matter (that He created) to gain entrance into the kingdom, to impart healing, infusion, etc.? They have to throw out the baby with the bath water. Our modern day counterparts esteem themselves far above the brilliant church fathers, making themselves fathers for themselves and any that will follow them. Weren’t we warned not to follow man? Is that not what they do, from Luther forward to present day?

          • Woody

            You are so good at the Bible; this morning at our Mass, before the Gospel, i heard one I do not believe I had ever heard before; so did it happen twice that the Apostles were put in jail only to be released–normally i recall the one where an “angel” led them after releasing them BUT this mornings mentioned one where “an earthquake” shook the jail–the jailer thought he had “failed” and went to commit suicide,but Paul and Silas told him to come before them and he knelt and was converted to Jesus (God Bless), and then the jailer took P & S to his home treated their wounds and fed them? So is there 2 jailbreak stories here?
            Poor Faux is back with us still begging for someone “to listen to him.” Right! I did not see that SicRent is back – I thought perhaps he left and became a Catholic priest? Aye!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’ve got to go read the post by albeit – it is the most vile trash I’ve ever heard, He called Mary’s womb ‘snatch”, and that if he had been her husband, he would have jumped on that snatch knowing that Jesus came from it. UNBELIEVABLE.

          • Woody

            Yes, he is as sick as that guy in California but he doesn’t know it – we need to put him in our prayers; I will say a Rosary shortly to my mom.
            God Bless

          • Woody

            Even worse I have not as yet seen any support for Our Lady from over 200 Prots on the site; if they are there I stand corrected bu it shows how far they have come since Martin Luther, Zwingli, Wesley, and Calvin–all who have shown such great love for Mary; imagine insulting Jesus’ Mom who stood at the Cross and had to watch His agony for over 3 hours – or the ingratitude of shown to one who had a free will and had she said–“No” to the Angel Gabriel – we would have “no Savior” at all. And the gall to stand at their judgement after denigrating the Mother of God and “asking to be let into Heaven…” Not I–I thank God at every morning Mass that I was born into His Church, the only one founded by Jesus Himself while on this earth; and yet–He did not leave us–giving us that wonderful gift of His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, and when we “Fall” as we all do–the other hand-in-hand gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation [Confession].

            G-d Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It is truly mind-boggling how far they have come from their Christian moorings. How Christian is that? The Bible says “one faith”- that ‘one faith’ always included reverence to the all holy ever-virgin, to the Eucharist, oral confession, baptism of infants, one church They are horrified to have to ‘confess’ their sins to anybody, what are they afraid of? A bunch of chickens that refuse to humble themselves, that’s what.

          • Woody

            Do you know someone named James White? Who is he? I also learned something else I never heard of: Godwin’s Law–

            Godwin’s law (or Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1″ [2][3]—​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

            The dumber I get the smarter I get ’cause there is no such thing as a dumb question except mine which seems dumb because it is dumb? Huh?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He is a pastor of one of the 39,000 man-made churches, very anti-Catholic.

          • shoebat

            He got a final warning. As far as the poster, perhaps you can get a copy?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Great idea, I’ll take it to Kinkos. Then what – mail to Rescue Christians?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Walid has shown through not only historical but archaeological documents and records what the first Christians believed and practiced. If he uses these proofs, you accuse him of “pushing you around”. A good dose of history is good for all of us now and then.

      • Wayne

        I don’t base truth on what some “Christians” did or didn’t do. I base truth on God’s Word. I don’t think anyone is disputing what “Christians” might or might not have done in the 2nd or 3rd Century. Whats being disputed is the fact that the Bible does not support your idol worship as you want it to. Yes, history shows that people (even “Christians”) were given to idolatry, not only in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Century, but ever since time began even to this day. No one disputes that. But I don’t discern between whats biblical or unbiblical based on what people do, I base it on Scripture. If you want to base your truth on what these post-Scriptural idolaters did, then by all means go ahead, just don’t expect me to approve of it or remain silent about it.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          You claim that the Bible doesn’t support idol “worship”. On that, you are right. You didn’t address that “images” were COMMANDED BY GOD TO BE MADE. Maybe you are taking what part of scripture you CHOSE TO follow while ignoring the rest. God never commanded them to “worship” the images, but He darn sure did command them to be made.

          • Wayne

            Yes, I did address it. See one of them comments down below.

        • shoebat

          Wayne, you say that you are not disputing that Christians in the 2nd or 3rd century used icons. But my question to you is this: why do we not find ANY Christian from the first to the third century who would agree with you. Perhaps you can provide us something from the historic account. In other words, the first Christians interpreted the Bible the way Julie does and not the way you do. I have explained why Icons are biblical. You need to explain your view in light of historic reference and not just how modern interpreters see it. My dilemma is this: Did Christ fail to build His church and only until the last few hundred years the truth of how Scripture is to be interpreted was revealed?

          • Corinna Morris

            Do we follow men or Gods word? What’s the scripture that says examine history to show thyself approved a workman that needeth not be ashamed?

          • shoebat

            We follow men who were inspired by God. The Bible is written by men who were inspired. If you want to be so strict, here is my question: In Joel it says that in the end of days the children will dream dreams and see visions. Once this happens, do we tell them that there words are not in Scripture?

          • Corinna Morris

            My Dearest Walid, “Dreams” occurs 72 times in 59 verses and “Visions” occurs 27 times in 27 verses. All dreams and visions, that come from God will be in agreement with scripture. So “their words” are actually “Gods words”, if indeed they are and the scriptures will confirm it to be so or not. That’s the amazing, awesome part about Gods word and studying Gods word day and night. God never deceives or leads anyone astray for ungodly gain or covetous agendas. He does nothing in vain. God does not change, He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Man is deceitful and can not be trusted, so everything that claims to come from God, will be confirmed by Gods word, if it be so. Every jot and every tittle will come to pass. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Those that are not in His word are thrown to and fro by every new wind of doctrine and easily deceived.
            Thank you again for responding. I’m enjoying the study in Gods word. God bless you.
            22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
            23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
            24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
            25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
            26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You don’t realize that your statement is actually proving his point, his point BEING that according to your prior bold statement that you will believe ONLY the written word of God. You’ve basically changed your stance now.

          • Corinna Morris

            I haven’t changed my stance. Everything must be validated by scripture, period

          • shoebat

            Corrina, you have answered wisely. My point was simple: when the children of Israel will dream dreams and see visions, you will have some say “sola scriptura” and they will ignore them. One must be careful of man’s invented cliché’s. No where in the Bible does it say “sola scriptura”. Anyone who is so strict about such use simply defends Martin Luther. I follow Christ not Luther.

    • shoebat

      Wayne, if I have intimidated you or insulted you in the past, perhaps I could extend an apology, but before I do, you need to show your case.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Your ignorance is showing. If their “faith alone” would heal them, why the mention of handkerchiefs and scarves? Why Peter’s shadow? Did the “faith alone” people without handkerchiefs and scarves get healed? Do you remember the old testament story of a dead man who was thrown onto the bones of Elisha and came to life? I suppose the “dead” man’s faith healed him, not the bones.

    • Corinna Morris

      Please stop bearing false witness against me. How many times are you going to misquote me? How many times have you told people they are so wrong or ignorant?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    If Exodus 20:3-5 is your gold standard, answer this: Why did God command the making of “graven images” later? Besides the bronze serpent, the ark, the menorah with its 7 branches (image of the Holy Spirit), and the graven images in Solomon’s temple, the priests had to wear vestments with stones and images of pomegranates on them. You need to read in context with what God’s command truly meant. No images of “other” Gods.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Also, did not God declare that he made man in His own “image” and likeness? Well, if we take your stance to its logical conclusion, then any man (human) needs to be struck down.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You are so wrong. In the story of the man who was brought in by his four friends, I think they lowered him through the roof, after he was healed, Jesus declared it was the faith of those that brought him in that healed him, not his.

    • Therese

      Julie,
      The guest above said “Their faith healed them”. The guest did not specify if it was the mans faith or his friends.
      The guest is correct.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Do you want to also make the same argument about Tabitha being raised from the dead by Peter? Did her “faith” (she was dead) raise her? Or was it the prayer of Peter that opened her eyes and raised her to life? Acts 9:36-41

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Matthew 8:14-15 “Jesus entered the house of Peter, and saw his mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and waited on him.”

        • Corinna Morris

          The power of God, through “faith” raised her. God is the power, faith is the instrument. Peters faith allowed him to say, Tabitha arise. This was after he prayed.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You kind of skirted the question!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Acts9:2 “And there PEOPLE bought to him A PARALYTIC lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw THEIR faith, he said TO THE PARALYTIC, “courage, child, your sins are forgiven.”

    • Corinna Morris

      Thank you for commenting. I do believe i said “their faith” God bless you

  • yahshua love’s you

    Brother walid your right at home I have a menorah and a copy of the arc of the covenant love you be blessed

    • shoebat

      Me too. I also have Mezuzah.

      • yahshua love’s you

        Brother walid your amazing you know how to break those religious spirits hahaha

  • James Foard

    God is a God of culture, He is a God of art and He is a God of beauty. In these barren Protestant churches (I’ve been going to one for six months) stripped of any kind of representation of religious decoration i feel like I am in a secular meeting hall instead of in the house of God. There is a lack of the feeling of “specialness”, of solemnity, of sanctity. I feel like I might be at a town hall meeting. And without the understanding and practice of Communion I leave still spiritually hungry and feeling like I’ve been to a lecture or a pep rally instead of communing with God. I’m still a Protestant at this point, but I am thinking of converting to a more sacramental church.

    • Steve Smith

      ”Beauty will save the World” Fyodor Dostoyevsky, what he meant was the Orthodox Liturgy.

  • Therese

    Walid,
    What has this got to do with Christian Persecution? Or Rescuing Christians?
    Or is this more about you?
    If you do not help Jesus to unit/gather the sheep, then you only help scatter the sheep. I’m sure you have memorised the scripture about that.
    Simply put you are wrong; but I suspect only Jesus/Holy Spirit can convict you of that at this current time. I would be wasting my time as you would only wish to argue with me.
    You are acting as if you are rather superior in knowledge than anybody else. It is also written in the scriptures that only a foolish man does that.
    A man like that is blind and will lead others to trip also.

    • Steve Smith

      This has every thing to do with Christian persecution this is the first thing muslims destroy , most Christians in the mid east are Catholic or Orthodox. Muslim hate the cross the iconostasis the Eucharist ,Incarnation of Christ, the Holy Trinity and the Virgin birth.

      • Therese

        You act as if Catholics or Orthodox are the ONLY Christians.
        Is this a website only to promote and support Catholics and Orthodox. Or does it support and help protect evangelicals also?
        I tell you now; I an Evangelical Christian, would protect, support and take care of any Catholic, Orthodox etc (that is unity Julie). It sounds like Walid, Julie, Goldman and you Steve would NOT do the same for me or my fellow evangelicals.
        We all must find our way – no matter what we are.
        Since they go for the idols; maybe we should not invest so much into these things and focus on the Holy Spirit (something that is unseen). This; they can not burn or take from us.

        • Steve Smith

          I was only pointing out our ancient Christian culture as a Carpatho- Russian and a Russian Orthodox Christian I know what Ethnic and religious hate can do. The Bandera thugs killed and tortured Czech Lutherans, Poles Germans Jews and us. The village my grand parents are from was wiped off the map, over 300 of my relatives are dead. My Uncle Ivan was cut open, his intestines nailed to a tree forced to run around the tree till his insides wound around it, then he was bayoneted, And yes I would help you. Our Holy Icons are dear to us as God’s mercy comes through them to us.

        • shoebat

          Therese, we rescue a large number of Anglicans from Pakistan. We also rescue Catholics and Orthodox. We rescue anyone who proclaims the Trinity, the Cross and the Blood regardless of denomination.

        • Somekindofpatriot

          I’m with you. Satan’s having his way here. Don’t anyone waste your time responding to this post because I won’t see it. I refuse to have anything more to do with this site, it feels as if evil has found it’s way in.

        • redeemed

          ‘For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.’
          …no icon, candle, statue, incense, pilgrimage, wafer, rosary or penance can take the place of being led by His Spirit.
          Jesus tells us half the people sitting in pews are out of oil.
          He promised us His Spirit would ‘lead us into all truth’
          now is the time to let Him lead us out of the world, false religion, and doctrines of men..He is coming soon.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Thanks for setting the record straight. It has much, and everything, to do with the persecution. The Koran and/or Hadith states that when their “jesus” (he’s the fake Jesus warned us about being in the desert or in an inner room) comes, he will tear all the crosses down. IT appears that SATAN HATES THE CROSS!!! Not just the cross that JESUS died on, but ANY replica!! Satan can’t stand it!! Why do you think exorcists use the crucifix along with prayers and Holy water to drive out demons? Because Satan is subservient to it. Do you know that many of the random victims of the muslims are chosen ONLY because the victim had a crucifix or cross on their body or hanging from the mirrors of their cars? These victims aren’t afraid to display their faith in a visible manner. If the persecution heads to the US, let’s see how many Christian will quit wearing the cross or crucifix.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      How else are sheep gathered into one fold unless they all have the same beliefs and practices? Have you ever considered this? Jesus prayed for his disciples to be as “ONE”, so that the world might know that the Father sent him. With 38,000 different sheep-stealing denominations, all with differing beliefs and practices, how does that measure up to Jesus’ words?

    • shoebat

      Therese. Just take a look at the first things Muslims do when they invade a Church. They destroy all the icons. It has everything to do with Christian persecution. I also find it to be true that the most persecuted Christians in the world are the Orthodox and the Catholics. Even here, in America, being anti-Catholic is the ONLY accepted prejudice.

  • Steve Smith

    Walid I can’t thank you enough, you post facts not some off the wall book lacking scholarship. What most people with negative comments lack is a firm teaching of the Doctrine of the Incarnation… GOD became flesh this is at the core of iconoclastic belief . We are the first Icons that God created ”let us make man in our image (ekon) in the Russian Orthodox custom we place a small mirror close to the holy icon corner so that when we pray before the holy icons we are reminded like the saints we too are the image of God. The Serbian Orthodox Church has a 7 part teaching on icons on YouTube look for it, it is worth it.

    • shoebat

      Steve, your biggest problem is this: you make sense. I love what you say “GOD became flesh the lack of this is at the core of iconoclastic belief”. Indeed, we are all icons for we are created in the image of God. The problem with many who do not see what we see is that they hold on to a booklet with few verses in Scripture while they ignore massive instruction from God.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You are so right. Doesn’t it boil down to them being a short step away from being gnostics?

        • shoebat

          Indeed, its a serious problem.

  • 1Bobby8

    Thank you Walid for this most convincing and truthful article.

  • Therese

    Walid,
    Please clarify for me if you save Evangelical Christians too?
    Or just Catholics and Orthodox?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Walid doesn’t ask or care if they are catholic, orthodox, or evangelical. He is an equal opportunity saver.

    • shoebat

      We save Evangelicals, Catholic and Orthodox. Just review our work in Pakistan.

  • prodigal

    I do not have time now to fully digest your article. However, if you stick to the first century church we get a much clearer picture of the gospel.
    I have no beef with the catholics but it is easy to see they have strayed from the book and our western culture is mixed with paganism.
    I love your work and know you are sincere by your work but I do not like the bashing of others.
    I align closely to the Apostolic Pentecostal doctrine and I have read Hislopsbooks and many others and I must say we need to go back to the 1st century to get the clearest picture of the truth. Yes the penecostals of today use the hankerchief

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Can you specify how they have strayed from the book? Blanket statements like that aren’t capable of being responded to. And please give example how western culture is mixed with paganism instead of the blanket statement. People would like to respond. thanks

      • prodigal

        Acts 2:38 baptism is by immersion in Jesus name. Our roman calendar versus the Jewish calendar may give you some insight. A preacher or a deacon is allowed to have only 1 wife not 0 necessarily. Graven images abound. Look at Easter . The old and new testament fit hand and glove and there are no eggs and bunnies and there is no carnival. God is who forgives sins not a priest unless he has been wronged. I apologize since it has been 20 years since I was well prepared and zealous about debating and Hislops book has not been defeated in this article. Foxes book of martyrs is another good book. The Lord our God is 1 God and Jesus is God in the flesh. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Praying to man made figures and praying to dead believers is not in the bible. Having a cross or a fish or some other symbol is not bad in itself but we worship God in spirit.
        Look at the baptismal pools of the old churches. Catholics keep records just undo everything they have changed, since they believe they have the keys, and we are back to the Gospel. Faith without works is dead and faith with works such as a fruit tree bearing fruit is the example.
        Julie I doubt you will find the argument you are looking for here since the people well equipped probably have tuned out already.
        The Catholics are right about abortion and many things. I can stand shoulder to shoulder and fight the enemies of God with them but I fear that at the top they are more than willing to terminate anyone who disagrees with them if they were dominant.
        Julie you are dead set on your Catholic teaching and I will not be body blocking any Catholics at the door of heaven. Yes the church in the US is largely asleep but the places in this country and around the world where Catholics are the dominant force it is very hard to find the light and hope the gospel brings.
        In the coming hours the refiners fire will clarify things for believers.
        BTW I was in the military long ago and it is a shame we are aligned with turkey and Saudi and turning a blind eye to the persecution of people because of the name of Jesus Christ. I believe we as a nation have a mandate to defend the Israelite and we should stomp anyone who kills Christians for being Christian. We as a nation are in deep spiritual trouble as a nation. Right now we are cursing Israel and the persecuted believers.
        God is good and he answers prayers. I have been praying for you and Walid and Ted as well as my own understanding.

    • shoebat

      I have attacked Catholics in a few articles. The difference is this: When I attack certain Catholics or some corruption in the Vatican, I have never had Catholics attack me. Never. But when I critique certain Evangelicals, many swarm in and act exactly as Muslims do. It is a strange phenomenon that needs to be explained. I am a Christian. Period. I do not need to be Evangelical, Baptist, Calvinist … to be in the hand of Christ. Christ wants us to be one, yet we are so divided. Stranger than this, is that when I try to unite, I get accused of dividing. i try to help Evangelicals to love Catholics. What sin is this?

      • prodigal

        Dear Walid I am not attacking you. To equate handkerchiefs with statues of Mary etc is like equating a lawn mower with a jet. Baptism in the bible and historically is by immersion in water and we are baptized in Jesus name. Children are sanctified by the believing parent and choose God at the age of accountability. The pagan calendar we have prevents most of us from the bible study intended for us on the feast (appointments) days. As you know God is very orderly and almost everything he does is filled with meaning. Just look at what has been done to celebrate the resurrection– eggs and bunnies– just where does that originate. I believe there were believers throughout history that did not accept the roman version. There are churches that are ordaining homosexuals and everyone that can read a bible knows that is wrong. Most believers I know defend the Catholics against the attacks from the left and their right to worship as they see fit. Because they understand that we must hang together or we will hand separately. I learn from your understanding of the middle east and while I may not always agree with you overall I am better for reading your take on things. Dear brother some of these things are for Julie but I do not want to talk to her. Before being a prodigal perhaps I would have but if in responding to her with the wrong spirit even if I am correct it could damage other believers. Reading your blog has been difficult at times because Ted sometimes has his finger in the non Catholic eye but I persisted. With a sad heart I think I will leave your forum and wish you well. May God bless and keep you and may he open all of our eyes to his truth. Ps go see the movie ” God is not Dead” great movie and uplifting.

        • shoebat

          You state: “I believe there were believers throughout history that did not accept the roman version.” Yet you provide not a single shred of evidence to what you stated here.

          The question is why? Why do people “believe” stuff without asking themselves to prove it first.

          Can you please provide who these Christians were? Once you try to research this issue alone, you will end up discovering how in error your statement is and your life will turn around in a way that you cannot even fathom at the moment. You will never find anyone opposing the Catholic Church who even come close to be qualified as Bible believing Christians. Good luck on that one, but I shall await with patience your response.

          • prodigal

            People like William Tyndale are examples to me. Today in North Korea there are believers and they have no sign on the door. Even if the truth lay dormant for centuries it is alive and well today. Personally I can not reconcile Catholic doctrine with the teachings of the bible. It would have been much easier for me to be Catholic and I had and have many Catholic friends. In the south it would have been easier to be a Baptist. May we all find God’s truth and be able to receive it. When I lived in the northeast US I found it a spiritually dark place and when I travel the most light I find is around the bible thumpers throughout the world. If I were a fruit inspector I would have to go with the bible thumpers. I saw you at the pulpit of many evanjelicals explaining what you had learned and what God had shown you and you were given credibility by association. God has blessed you and may he continue to do so. The evanjelicals have no time to fight with Catholics. The fields are white and the laborers are few. God has been good to me in spite of my failures and I do not feel high and mighty. Just trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling in awe of his power and mercy. I respectfully disagree. God is good.

    • Tom_mcewen

      “I have no beef with the Catholics but it is easy to see they have strayed from the book” They wrote the book, not the Protestants, thou they do distort it.

  • prodigal

    Very disappointing article that will have only negative impact. Why do you feel compelled to be a Catholic apologist? I have been in this country and many more and know that living around Evanjelicals that read their Bible and love God impacts people and nations for Jesus Christ. Bashing non Catholics may not be helping. Go to the 1st century and read the bible. There is a lot of pagan junk in our western culture and we need to purge it. Many evanjelicals use the handkerchief and oil today. I am at a loss to see the point of the article. I believe in the Apostolic doctrine Acts 2: 38 but I love all believers and am a lowly servant of the most high God. Let us pray for all the Saints ( believers) to have a clearer understanding of his word and to work together for the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God bless you.

    • shoebat

      prodigal. I love Evangelicals who follow the Bible. I love Orthodox and Catholics too. Why must you paint me is such a way calling me a “basher”. Not all Evangelicals are Iconoclast and it seems that you are not, so I am at a loss here why you are reprimanding me?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      the use of oil is declared in the Old and the New Testaments/ I’ll reference only New testament passages/ Jesus himself was anointed with OIL Mark 14:3-9 “A woman came with an alabaster jar of perfumed oil, costly genuine spikenard. She broke the alabaster jar and poured in on his head…She has anticipated anointing my body for burial. Amen, I say to you, wherever the gospel is proclaimed to the whole world , whatever she has done will be told in memory of her.”

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Mark 6:13 “They drove out many demons, and they anointed with OIL many who were sick and cured them”

    • Julie LaBrecque

      James 5:14-15 “Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and THEY should pray over HIM and ANNOINT WITH OIL in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will heal him.” (Note: the sick man is not the one praying it is the Presbyters). I just can’t understand why so many Christians oppose the word of God just for the sake of holding to their preset biases.

  • jmstalk

    Thanks for the article Walid. I like a man who’s honest and sincere.

  • rnot

    thanks Mr. Shoebat for a very insightful article. I also look at it as we humans have many senses. The ears are only one sense, vision is another. Some of the art and statues are not great items of art, but some are indeed good and beautiful. To see a visual expression of Jesus, His mother, His death that reminds us of His resurrection – is not a bad thing. And I will tell you that I get sick and tired of the holier than though preaching by non-Catholics that it should be their way or the highway.

    In fact, they need to go and read the Bible again and St. Paul says, “… that whoever condemns sin in others and do the very same thing has no defence at all but condemns himself. He declared: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judges; for wherein thou judgest another, thou consdemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things” – Romans 2:1.

    I have gone into other denominations of Christian’s churches and their insistence that only singing be the only sense that is used to worship, is very limited indeed. I don’t like to listen to them and I don’t even like to listen to a lot of bands either. After doing a little reading on sides of the brains that people use – some people just do not have the patience to just sit and listen to a bunch of songs and some are just ghastly to listen to. I like to sing but I don’t like to do it in public.

    If another doesn’t want to wear a cross, see a cross, or a picture/statue – fine but don’t tell everyone else they have to do what they do. It is irritating at the very least and insulting at the very most to infer that we don’t have the correct spirit of worship or some other such nonsense. We know that worshipping statues, or things, is against the 1st commandment. It is silly to assume that we don’t know that.

    I like the smell of incense, I like to look at art, I like to wear a cross, I like to feel the cross on my chest every so often when I think about it because it all brings my thoughts to the One and that is a good thing.

    And as for moslems… gee, they bow to a stone (5×365), make a journey to it, do their rituals around it and think it is going to forgive sins. A stone does their allah’s job of forgiving sins?!? Go figure. They need to look in the mirror but they will deny it all and that makes it easier for them to be holier than though too.

  • 1Prophet

    I must say at this point, Walid, if I see anymore hearsay coming from you trying to drag Christians into Catholicism & its worship of IDOL, not icons…call them what they are! I will remove myself from you & my support as well. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? AND WHAT CONCORD HATH CHRIST WITH BELIAL? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. WHEREFORE COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YE SEPARATE, SAITH THE LORD, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THINGS; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) You can reference the worshippers of Belial to the Old Testament and they were idol worshippers. They were referred to as have unclean spirits. Friend, listen hard, God will not cover you with His grace when you worship false gods of stone, wood, gold & silver. IDOLATRY IS IDOLATRY. I trust this will be the end of you totally irreverent non-sense!

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Revelations 5:8 “…Each of the elders held a HARP and GOLD BOWLS FILLED WITH INCENSE, which are the prayers of the holy ones.” Wow!! In the New Testament- and this vision is of HEAVEN!!!

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Revelations 8:3-5 “Another angel came and stood at THE ALTAR, holding a GOLD CENSER. He was given a great quantity of INCENSE TO OFFER, along with the prayers of the holy ones, on the GOLD ALTAR that was before the throne. The smoke of the INCENSE along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the CENSER, filled it with burning coals from the ALTAR, and hurled it down to earth….” Well, does God approve of incense or not, according to the vision John was given? Does God approve of ALTARS? Sounds like there’s one in heaven!

    • shoebat

      Prophet, your financial support is not for me. I do not make a cent from you. Your support is for the persecuted. So its up to you to keep or remove it. This is one thing that many are famous for here in the West. They always talk about money as a method to be used as “power of persuasion”. I always get rid of these as quickly as they show up. As far as Icons is concerned, you sir are an icon, for you are made in the image of God. As far as you accusing me of idol worship is your choice to participate in slander. So please spare me the insults and just leave.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Do you think you scare him? Don’t bite the hand that feeds you- He runs the show. Maybe consider this (speaking to myself as well): we agree to disagree agreeably.

  • The Temple veil was torn at the death of Christ
    Yes it was…It also represents a halfway point in time because it split right down the middle….But what halfway point in time??? 735,000 days from the covenant with Abraham to the death on the cross and 735,000 days from the death on the cross unto the Millennium…totaling 1,470,000 days symbolic of Christ’s 14,700 (12) hour days life here on earth

    • Corinna Morris

      Ok uh…who shot John?

  • Corinna Morris

    I’m a Christian, I’m saved, but I do sin and I do make mistakes and post things in haste as well; and, I too have had my fair share of learning when it comes to finding out someone was not what they appeared to be at first and then have to back track and remove any endorsements of said party. I’m not infallible, but my Savior is! We should be reading our Bible with as much zeal as the next fake book to come out with mind blowing “revelations” of what’s to come in the last days. Truly there is a “war on for your mind” but it’s not going to be revealed by “fringe” false prophets who aren’t even saved, it will and IS revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures. Be careful out there, it’s a minefield.

    • Corinna Morris

      “33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matthew 12:33-37

      Cross Reference Matthew 7:15-23

      “15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

      21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”–Jesus Christ of Nazareth

    • Woody

      A beautiful act of sorrow on your part but i don’t know what you did. God Bless, and Peace be to you..

  • Rexlion

    Walid’s writing is much improved of late. 😉

    Walid wrote: “They all (even including Jesus and the apostles) used the
    Deuterocanonical books that are in Catholic bibles. They all had
    priests, altars, images and saints.” I would like to see more specifics on this. What writings from the first 3 centuries AD state that the Christians were led by priests? Had altars? Had statues of Mary in their places of worship?

    Certainly there is no problem with creating artwork. Figures in stained glass, paintings, carved statues and other things can be beautiful and can remind us of past events and people. But is there a problem with placing the statues at the front of the church, presenting offerings before the statues, and bowing to pray before the statues?

    Perhaps one can validly state that the Church is not overtly promoting worship of the images. But by presenting the images in this fashion, the Church is promoting an atmosphere that can too easily become idolatrous. Think back to the illiterate, uneducated people of the earlier centuries: do you really suppose that those Catholics were ‘up to speed’ with the understanding that graven images were not to be worshipped? Even today, it would be all too easy for a Catholic to associate a little *too strongly* the statue with the person and to actually begin praying to the statue *as* the person… as if the person *inhabited* the statue.

    “All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.” Would it not have been better for the Catholic Church to have long since discontinued these iconic practices, if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of impropriety and to avoid causing some brothers to stumble?

    Saying that Hislop’s statements about icons is wrong because Hislop was wrong about the Trinity is similar to saying that I can’t be right about baking cakes because I once burned a pie. And saying that Evangelicals are wrong about icons because Muslims happen to say the same thing… well, both Catholics and Muslims say some of the same things, too.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Rexlion, you are saying that because an icon happens to be in a church building, and since kneeling and bowing happens in the church, that equals idolatry. So was God in error when he had Solomon’s temple filled with images and statues? God surely knew that his children would be bowing, kneeling, and praying in the presence of the images and statues.

      • Rexlion

        That is not quite what I am saying. I’m saying that people leave offerings of lit candles and flowers before the statue, bow and kneel specifically to the statue, and sometimes even pray specifically to the statue as if the person represented were inhabiting that statue. I was raised Roman Catholic, I’ve seen it.

        If you talk to anyone who has been to Thailand, they will tell you that the Thai people commonly do the same thing to their statues… even leaving food offerings before the statues. And those statues are not in churches, obviously, because the Thai are not Christians.

        In both cases, idolatry is taking place.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You claim we aren’t to make icons. Why did God command Moses and King Solomon to make them?

    • 1Prophet

      That’s so simple a little child should know it. That was Old testament before Jesus came ushering in the New covenant of which all of those were types and shadows of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the church. Those things were imperfect as the OT priesthood was. And that are not ICONS but false god and IDOLATRY! PRIOD! From the worship of Belial! The OT has been finished and done away with except for the purpose of history, prophecy and the types & shadows of Messiah Who has come, Yeshua Ha Mashiyach! The law of the letter works death & the Spirit & TRUTH works life everlasting!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        that’s odd- the old testament peoples could have images before Christ came in the flesh/ and now that Jesus has come in the flesh, and actual “image”, we can’t have what the old testament had? Your reasoning is faulty. Try again

        • 1Prophet

          Mine faulty? You gave the very reason why idols are not relevant at all. You’re so faulty in everything you say and it is all carnal reasoning, and typically for the Synagogue of Satan, you probably don’t even study the Bible, only listen to the hearsay of the dope. Opps Pope!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            go ahead, slander the pope again, do you remember what happened to those who rebelled at Moses (Korah’s rebellion)? God opened the earth and swallowed them ALL.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            And, what about Ananias and Sapphira? They fell dead at PETER’S feet.

          • 1Prophet

            What is your problem with understanding the pope & Catholics are Self-exalted Satanist & aren’t from or of God whatsoever? Those keys belong to all believer’s & you are the modern Pharisees & if you saw Jesus you would crucify Him again, and the pope would drive in the nails. After all, you don’t want to disclose you teach the pope is God! Hearsay is hearsay! You were founded on hearsay & you remain rebellious against God Himself. It was upon Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Son of the Living God that Jesus built His Church and upon that confession, not Peter . Not on any man, but on Himself! The pope is not Peter nor his heritage. They blasphemed God not the silly little pope!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tell me exactly what scripture we can read that gave 1Prophet keys to the kingdom and I will stand corrected. Good luck.

          • 1Prophet

            And you still use words that indicate witchcraft of Satanism is present in you! LUCK? That is hit & miss gambling. In the NT we ARE blessed period, without any hit & miss. Jesus never built His Church on A man. Jesus is the ROCK. Do a word search and see. Your foundation is not on the rock but on sand & get will be the fall of your house. Being as Jesus is the rock, anyone who confessing him as Peter did has been given the keys to the kingdom. Will you deny that as I and others us it, it is always done accordingly. This HEARSAY Shoebat you believe has allowed the pope to propagate lies and justify it falsely to you who are blind. “And Simon Peter answered and said, THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. And Jesus answered and said unto him, BLESSED ART THOU, SIMON BARJONA: FOR FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED (((THIS))) UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and UPON (((THIS))) ROCK, I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:16-18) Jesus always made Himself perfectly clear & doesn’t need your help to foul up his Word. Jesus said His confession (((THIS))) and it is the (((THIS))) rock He built His Church on. If it were Peter, Jesus would not have failed to say, ” BLESSED ART THOU (((ONLY,& NOT ANYONE ELSE))) SIMON BARJONA. But He didn’t. Anyone who confesses Jesus as the Son of the Living God is confessing Who the Rock is. JESUS, JESUS, JESUS! NOT A MERE MORTAL MAN, PETER! And Peter is not the Holy Ghost! So Ananias and Sapphira didn’t lie to him, and whoever they had lied in the presence of, if it were you (if you were a true believer that is) or me (who believes in Jesus, not Peter) they would have fallen dead at MY feet, and know it or not. One did! Binding & loosing pertains to spirit, binding the bad, and loosing the good or angels of God! Good-bye. I shake the dust of hypocrisy & lies off of my feet & on judgment day, we will let Jesus decide this issue before us all!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Jesus RENAMES Simon as PETER, KEPHA in Aramaic, which means Rock. Any person in salvation history that received a name change PLAYED A VITAL ROLE for God’s purposes. Using your idiotic interpretation, when God renamed Abram, Abraham, He really didn’t mean that his name meant what it meant. Further, why don’t you ask yourself why Jesus traveled to Caesarea Phillippi to make this declaration. You might learn something that sheds light on it. Jesus made this name change to ROCK in FRONT OF A MASSIVE ROCK. Do your homework before spouting off. By the way, in this ROCK Jesus was standing by was a cave that was called “the gates of Hell”.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Since you are trying to deny that Jesus’ declaration was a name change for Simon, John 1:42 refutes your interpretation. Jesus PROPHESIED the name change. Stop trying to change the obvious.

          • redeemed

            Christ is our Rock and His kingdom is built on what Peter said in answer to Christ’s question, ‘who do you say I am’? ..His Kingdom is built on believing He is the Son of God…not Peter.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Follow the exchange between Jesus and Simon. Simon renamed Jesus, “The Christ”. Jesus renames Simon, “Kepha” in Aramaic, the language of Jesus” Peter in Greek so that it would be in the masculine. Simon renames Jesus, Jesus renames Simon. Simon further describes Jesus “the Son the Living God” Jesus responds likewise describing Simon as the “Son of Jonah” (john in some versions), which means “son of the Holy Spirit. Simon of his own earthly knowledge DID NOT reveal Jesus” identity, as Jesus so declares it was MY FATHER IN HEAVEN WHO REVEALED THIS TO YOU. So, if you choose to believe that “rock” was Peter’s confession, that does not hold to what Jesus said himself. You are now left with “the rock” being God’s revelation to Simon, with no person involved. I missed how you reconcile John 1:42 when Jesus PROPHESIED this name change, he did not declare he was going to give a name to A STATEMENT SIMON WOULD MAKE, but to Simon himself. I don’t know why this is so hard for people. Abraham himself is referred to as Rock, and as Father. Why is it so hard to apply the same Titles to Peter? You must not have studied the Davidic Kingdom, because it has in its structure a “royal steward” a “father over the house”. Jesus is the true son of David, and sits on his throne.

          • Woody

            I know–prejudice… is way…

          • Woody

            Another non-scholar…

          • Woody

            Yes, and here it is for you non-Scripture non-scholars:

            The Law of First Mention…

            When something is first mentioned in the Bible, the meaning of it remains the same throughout the rest of the Bible.

            When GOD gave authority to someone in Scripture, HE changed the name of that person.

            1. GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the ‘Father of a Multitude of Nations’, in Gen 17:5. HE gave Abraham ‘primacy’ over all other men.

            2. GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when HE made her the ‘Mother of Nations’ in Gen 17:15-16. HE gave Sarah
            ‘primacy’ over all other women.

            3. GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and Jacob became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29, 35:10.

            4. GOD renamed Simon to Peter in Matt 16:18, thus giving him ‘primacy’ over all of the Apostles. Why else would GOD give a new name to Simon?

            5. GOD renames Saul to Paul to ordain him for his future role as the Apostle of the Gentiles. Thank, You,God…thank You God…Thank You God [3 times in honor of your Trinity]

            The ‘Law of First Mention’ as applied to Abraham, Sarah, Israel, and Paul, works very well indeed. Why then do some believe it does not work for Simon-Peter?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Did God change Saul’s name? I can’t remember that it is recorded as a name change by God, could be wrong..

          • Woody

            Yah, he changed it from Saul to Paul; he was Saul when he was murdering Christians, and was one of the ones who stoned the first Christian Martyr – St Stephen; I guess shortly after the horse fell on Saul…err, Paul.you know he was not a namby-pamby– his statuary is always pictured with a Sword (representing a “sharp tongue”) He is the father of “Fraternal correction” what you are doing on this site; only he did it with the Corinthians.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I know his name was Paul after being Saul of Tarsus, but, I, not aware that the Bible records the name change was done by God

          • Woody

            Don’t ask what I am doing back here; I only spent a cursory day reading Walid’s fine article, so I reread it now; very good. I hadn’t heard the Constantine lie until about 2 months ago a lady said that to me and i thought it so silly I burst out laughing, but later I came across what looks like a Pope around 800 or so who seems to have he name, Constantine; perhaps to honor him as the First Roman leader to release the Christians from the nonsense of the Romans, especially that goof ball Caligula who cured his nephew’s cough (when he would not stop coughing by having his head cut off. Said my Blessed Margaret Novena tonight again–Walid is so familiar with her; I did not know she is an “incorruptible” She is listed as a cause in my own Church here; at Mass today, I said upon leaving, “What happened. we used to honor her relic on Wednesday after Mass?” This guy said, “Probably because it is Thursday.” I felt stupido.
            God Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If that’s the first time you heard that Constantine started the church, all I can say is that you must live in an area not heavily predominated by protestants, cause I’ve heard it all my life. I used to attend a bible study group in my neighborhood, I was the only Catholic, and boy they took off on that one session, they believe it hook, line, and sinker. Nothing would change their minds. Ignorance is bliss.(not!)

          • Woody

            happy St Catherine of Sienna day; what a woman she was and named the first woman “Doctor of the Church,” she took on the Pope himself urging him to return to Rome (from Avignon),and then spent her life treating the people dying of the Black Plague (I”ll ;probably be accused of being racist now on this site) Catch this–she was the youngest of 25 children; now that is an active man. Sometime I cannot get on–does that happen to you – but at least I do get “missives” from Faux Catholic and the lady that has her corset on too tight (which is what ma used to tell me; she misquotes me and then accuse me of being prejudiced– I asked why we do not see any Protestants getting any press – are they not involved in the Pro-life movement; so instead of answering my query, she comes back and says i should not accuse the of that–I did not; in fact I live Evangelicals a lot-but all we ever see on TV is Fr Frank Pavone (great guy< and I did say I do see Alveda King who is involved up to her ears, and also "Roe" of Roe vs Wade" who is ;prolife now and confessed that "they made the whole thing up. Not sure what religion Roe is today?
            God Bless

          • shoebat

            Woody, why do you call it “Black Plague’, are you racist? 😉

          • Woody

            Yes, I love girls…

          • Woody

            Hard to believe you were born in Bethlehem; can you tell us a little bit about the town? You know…size…population…any thing left honoring the birth of Jesus, etc.?

          • shoebat

            1Prophet, please go learn how to spell heresy, you keep misspelling it as hearsay. This is the tenth time you did this. First learn how to spell the word before you qualify yourself to debate the topic. Then you say “you are the modern Pharisees”? Please review the Bible and see how many great pharisees the Bible mentioned and discussed. Again, take your pitchfork and leave this place, or else I will have to end up booting you out. That or learn to have some respect on my blog.

          • 1Prophet

            What does Pope have to do with Moses, much lest with the God and Father of my Lord Jesus Christ. He may well be the anti-Christ himself, he is for sure AN anti-Christ and so are you! Nothing will happen to me I reject your Satanic curse in the Name of Jesus. I know what has happened to people who have touched me as I am the righteousness of God in Christ, an Anointed One by Jesus Himself. Please try you freaky scare tactics and your lack of knowledge of God’s Word with some simpleton Catholic that will follow “every wind of doctrine” and has been every since your Synagogue of Satan began pushed through by the Roman Empire to destroy Christianity. PLEASE! REPENT YOU IDOLATOR!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Well, there was a change of authority with the New Testament. Not only does the Pope have “the keys of the kingdom”, he also inherited the seat “cathedra” of Moses. Matthew 23:2-3 “the scribes and Pharisees sit on MOSES’ SEAT. Therefore, DO AND OBSERVE ALL THAT THEY TELL YOU… Jesus goes on to give them a ripping, because they teach but don’t practice. Matt 23:13 ” You LOCK (use a key to shut in the Greek) the kingdom of heaven before human beings.” Wow. Sounds like Jesus recognized a power on earth to open or shut the kingdom using keys, the exact keys he gave to PETER and PETER’s successors. Study Isaiah 22 and read about the office of the royal steward who was over the house of the King, the office was handed down even then.

          • Woody

            Julie you must have the entire Bible in your head; I cannot remember yesterday. God Bless, darling

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’ve studied a lot, that’s all. Interestingly, if you order a copy of the original King James version (1611), you will see 2 interesting facts: 1. It included the 7 deuterocanonical books, but they were placed at the end of the OT. 2. The preface of the KJV 1611, HAS THE LIST OF THE FEAST DAYS OF THE SAINTS!

          • Woody

            Yes, my favorite is the Douay Rheims bible.; the language is so pretty; it would be the Vulgate but I forgot my Latin? St. Jerome started out his original translation from the Hebrew text; however the Pope told him he must use the OT Jesus quoted from the most–the Septuagint, which also has the proper books. It does not surprise me that Luther has the correct books in his bible[ I had heard that he never took them out but that when he sent them to the Printer–the blatherskite lost them, not Luther, but look at the Prots who have been stumbling around for centuries over this for no reason. Yes, they change on a daily basis what was true, – to no longer true so I will go off and found my own church, despite the fact that only Jesus has the right to found His Church and He did.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I have about 5 different versions including Douay Rheims. Interesting you brought up the Vulgate- in the Lords’ Prayer, where the English says “daily” bread, Jerome interpreted it “supersubstantial”. Check out the Greek epiousios (sp)?, it had not been used in any Greek literature to date when written, so Jerome had to dissect it into “epi”, which means over, above, or upon, and “ousious” is substance, being.

          • shoebat

            Keep in mind, some Pharisees accused Jesus of the very thing you accuse others of. They accused Jesus of being influenced by demons. And as it turned out, their piety was what was so demonic. It goes the same for you. In one comment you accuse me of breaking one of the Ten Commandments. Cut me some slack Mr. Pius, you broke all Ten. We all did.

          • Woody

            Good :Point, and I was thinking of Dusty who accuses us the breaking he Sabbath and that is exactly what the Pharisees accused Him of “Why this man does not keep the Sabbath.” Strange how after 2000+ years we come full circle.

          • redeemed

            ‘gainsaying of core’ involved making a fake priesthood against the eternal priesthood of God..exactly what the papacy has done..we have a High Priest forever of the highest order, making intercession for us…no earthly priesthood is needed.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            And, you think that there is not a priesthood in between the High Priest, as there always was, and the priesthood of the laity? We are all called to be priests, a nation of priests.
            To understand the New priesthood is to go back to the last supper. I’m sure you don’t believe Jesus’ meant what he said, this is my body, this is my blood. Never the less, He only included his Apostles at this Passover meal, no one else but them because they were to be His priests, in the order of Melchizedek, who offered bread and wine to Abraham. Only a priest can “pour out” blood. What Jesus did in the “upper” room (there’s an implicit reference here, to Mt, Sinai, they were taken “into heaven itself”) The last supper was THE RATIFICATION ceremony of the New Covenant. This is the only time Jesus mentions covenant, and it is in the cup of His blood we are so told. Jesus had to perform the ratification ceremony of the New Covenant in advance of the “slaying of the lamb”, because, He was/is the Lamb, and lambs don’t make it out alive. In the Old covenant, Moses was the mediator of the covenant with God. Jesus is the both priest and victim in this covenant ceremony. The words of institution in the upper room, were THE words that made his sacrifice, that was done OUTSIDE OF THE TEMPLE, a sacrifice. Without the last supper, what happened to him on Friday is nothing more than another Roman crucifixion. He freely gave his life on Thursday night.

          • Woody

            Yes, and the first 32 Popes, beginning with Peter, were martyred, and the Church grew on the blood of Martyrs. Go Jesus’.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Yes, and the early fathers, in reference to Christians being martyred, described that their blood was “seed” for new converts. The pagans saw how strongly these Christians believed in what they professed that they willingly went to their deaths, “to be ground into wheat” for Jesus.

          • Woody

            Look at the name this guy’s chosen? How come all of these “Johnny Come Lately’s think they no so much and yet they are so easy to refute. I bet this is one of those “Once saved, always saved guys,” and I don’t even know him. Gee I wonder why St.Paul says, “…we work out our salvation in “fear and trembling.” doesn’t sound like Paul was very confident that he was “once saved always saved?’ does it?

          • shoebat

            1Prophet, I am curious, do you own a pitchfork?

          • 1Prophet

            No!

      • shoebat

        1Prophet, so help enlighten us, please. Here is the issue: all Christians (until Zwingli showed up) had icons. Are you saying that all Christians were idol worshipers until Zwingli showed up? Please do not change the subject and simply answer my question. Here let me make my question simpler: Can you provide a name of any Christian group that was Iconoclast prior to Zwingli? Remember, my questions here are specific. Please do not start quoting Scripture to answer the question. This is a question on history.

        • 1Prophet

          So you are saying you were alive back then to follow all the Christians? My gosh Shoebat, how old are you. There has always been those who have opposed idolatry & the Synagogue of Satan, the Catholic Church. Even Catholics, have thought and acted outside of your and the pimp, opp popes lies!

        • Woody

          Ah, I love you–you are a disciplined master…
          (by the way though all the early Prots just rave about Mary)

  • efranco

    Walid, venerate is a synonym for worship. Please look it up in a dictionary.
    The brazen serpent you mention. 2 Kings 18:4 “He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.”
    Jesus said to the Samaritan woman. Matthew 4:23-24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.”
    I say this sadly. I did not have the stomach to read the rest of your article.
    I tend to believe that God used you to break the prophecy paradigm (Rome) that is still in the West. As you surely know He can use anyone to accomplish His work, even unsaved. I don’t know your heart only God knows, but please Walid tell me, what’s going on? Is it that the controversy you brought with the prophecies gave you such a high that you need more controversies? Is it that you don’t have anything more to offer? Are you bitter? Please do not harden your heart.
    Romans 12:3 “For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

    • Julie LaBrecque

      If you chose to “venerate”, or “glorify” your mother and/or father, your spouse, your children, does that mean you worship them? If someone accused you of this, would you straighten them out- would you tell them that your expressions of your deep and abiding love for them doesn’t mean that you put them on par with God?

      • efranco

        You’re exactly at the root of the problem. You’re attributing those words; glorify, venerate, worship,… to an image, icon, inanimate object and not to a person (mother, father, God,…) . Seriously!!! And that’s the beginning of idolatry. Furthermore, if you push your veneration towards your mother, father,… too far, you will fall into worshiping them. Very spiritually dangerous, but happens. By the way, using quotation marks on a word (ex. “venerate”) is just a modern way of compromising and stretching the real meaning of the word. Please examine your heart.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          So, whatever word I choose to describe my actions is the deciding factor of what I’m doing, rather than what I’m actually doing or feeling? I believe that I’ve read that the word translated into “honor” in the commandment to “Honor” your father and mother is actually closer in meaning to “Glorify” your father and mother. Have you ever told your spouse (if married) ” I love you more than anything in the whole wide world”, as is quite common? Does this statement mean that they don’t love God more? Of course not.

  • David Roberts

    שלום! I agree with much of what brother Walid wrote as I do my utmost to follow the example of the Apostolic Believers. It’s true that icons (paintings) were there from the earliest times. In that sense, I say the Eastern Churches have it right, but it is against the Torah to create any statutes except without the direct permission and guidance of God, that’s why it was not a sin to have the bronze serpent or to have the twelve bulls in the Holy Temple, so it seems to me that statutes was something the anti-Jewish Roman Church who had rejected the Torah developed and established, but I do think it’s terrible how the protestant Church has cut itself off from so much of authentic Christianity. e.g. Denying the change that takes place with the bread and wine during the Holy Communion where the spiritual life and power of Christ come into the bread and wine by the Spirit of God, and many other things. Protestants are always saying we should follow the Bible and the Bible alone, how about this? The Apostle Paul instructed the Gentile Churches to practice the Semitic custom of the kiss greeting: The Roman Church, The Corinthian Church, The Thessalonian Church. references: Rom 16:16, 1 Cor 16:20, 2 Cor 13:12, 1 Thess 5:26

    Even the head Apostle, Simon Peter commanded it,

    “Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.” 1 Pet 5:14

    And we see this Apostolic practice carried out in Acts 20:37,

    “They embraced Paul and kissed him.”

    Of course this will be difficult for some Christians get used to, but if they want to be one of the brothers of Christ, they need to get used to Biblical Kingdom culture.

    Blessings in Messiah Yeshua.

    • shoebat

      Well put David. One issue, when you state: “but it is forbidden in the Torah to carve graven images. The only exceptions are when God Himself commands for them to be built, such as the bronze serpent or to have the twelve bulls in the Holy Temple.” Would you then support the destruction of all the statues of Washington and Lincoln? After all, there are NO EXCEPTIONS except what Scripture said, right? How about the statue of Liberty? Should we become terrorists and blow that down too?

      • David Roberts

        I wrote a reply, but I’m not sure if it went through…
        My answer is that there are two stages of Christianity, the lamb stage and the lion stage, and we don’t tear down Hindu temples or statues until Christ returns as the Lion and removes everything which offends God from His worldwide kingdom. Regarding the statues of Washington and Lincoln, all the founding fathers that died in the Lord will come back with the Messiah in glorified immortal bodies shining like the sun, so we’ll have the real ones with us so we won’t need statues to remind us of them. That’s also true of Miriam (Mary) the mother of Yeshua, and all the other Apostles and Saints. We will see them face to face. In the mean time, I say paintings/icons is the Orthodox position. I think the Byzantine Church, the Assyrian Church, and the Ethiopian Church, the Mar Toma Church in India would agree. So ultimately yes, I do believe all statues (except any that God commands to be built in the Millennium) will be removed, but that is significantly different to Islam that doesn’t just destroy statues, but also paintings of prophets, etc. and many other art forms.

        • redeemed

          David, islam is worshipping the biggest idol there is..
          It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which IT WILL SPEAK , and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.” See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

          Rev 13:15

          And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both SPEAK, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

          • David Roberts

            Did you read my post? I’m a Believer in Yeshua and following the orthopraxy of the original disciples. I’m not a Muslim.

  • shoebat

    There faith in Christ healed them. But even the woman who touched the garment of Jesus, she too was healed through her faith in Christ, but CHRIST HONORED what she did as He honored what was done in the shadow of Peter and the handcurchief … why is this so difficult? Its like saying that your pastor cannot pray for you for healing since Jesus is the only one who heals. Well, sure, but the fact remains that Jesus honors the prayers of your pastor s an intercessor. Does this undermines Jesus from being the only mediator? NO. And neither are these other issues. Why is this so difficult? I pray and hope you see my point. With love and blessings. Walid.

    • Corinna Morris

      There are many examples of how faith, in the power of God, or the power of God alone was exercised. I find no difficulty with this whatsoever. So many different ways, that it becomes evident that Jesus and the scriptures are avoiding repetition, so sinful man, who lacks faith, or has a weakness towards idolatry, because of sin, won’t fall into doctrinal practices of making things, a particular incident or style, the object of their faith. Jesus Christ is to be the author and finisher of our faith. Which now brings me more confirmation that icons were something to be avoided, for this very reason.
      I’ve searched the scriptures since last night, breaking only to sleep, and have not found one single scripture, wherein the church was told, encouraged, taught to fashion our places of worship after the temple using anything from the temple. It has been a great study, thank you. So my friend, we will just have to agree to disagree. Jesus Christ is the object of my affection and faith. My faith is strengthened by the Word of God. I have never needed an icon of any sort to worship nor for me to put my complete trust in Him. The Holy Spirit has revealed Him to me. He took the judgement that I was due and has covered me with His righteousness. The penalty that was due me, He bore on my behalf. It’s even more clear to me now, that my having icons or images would be a unnecessary or even a hurtful thing for me to do. Why would I want to do that? I worship Him in spirit and truth. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Acts 7:47 “But Solomon built Him a house.
      48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
      Act 17:24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
      25 “Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
      26 “And He has made from one blood[fn] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
      27 “so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
      28 “for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
      29 “Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
      30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
      God bless you all. It’s been a fantastic study.

  • gatekeeper96740

    Thanks for the lovely explanation.

  • krinks

    “But as I researched the oldest Christians and their churches from the first century to the fourth, they presented a problem since all these churches used icons and incense. ” – This is a lie from the pits of Hell. The earliest of churches were Jews who knew better than to try to introduce idolatry into the House of God. What do you suppose the warning against bowing down to or serving statues means?

    • Steve Smith

      Dura Europos Synagogue 244 AD Facts do not lie Walid did his homework think before you call your brother a lier

      • shoebat

        Thats a fine photo Steve. Iconoclast not only agree with Muslims, but they also behave like them. They froth with slander and always present UNRELATED quotes from Scripture to portray themselves as holy. They love to trumpet phrases like “the Word of God” “the pit of hell” “the blood” when they are so far from the Word. It is as if my little child admires the sky and the stars, and instead of me discussing how God made these stars, I simply say that “pagans worship the stars”, so I start quoting Scripture about “star gazers” and admonish him that he should stop gazing at the stars. But what does gazing at the stars in admiration of God’s creation has to do with paganism? Such folks do not even realize that it was Zwingli who banished icons. Even Luther who coined “By Faith Alone” retained most aspects of the medieval Catholic Mass. It was Zwingli who reduced the service to a basic sermon accompanied by unleavened bread and wine. Zwingli further removed various icons and relics from churches in order to keep with a very simple style. Ministers under his direction were required to abandon their special clerical vestments and wear lay clothing. Now we know why so many dress in Hawaiian shirts instead of vestments. So, for Christians to call me evil and liar for accepting icons, they must also reject Luther who was not an Iconoclast. Today we have Lutherans, but what must we call the Iconoclast? Zwingliites? I would not make such an insult, but I hope these understand that God made all of us icons.

    • The truth is reading and understanding God’s Word…Not bowing down to some icon or statue representing some saint or disciple of the past…read and follow God’s Word….The truth shall set you free not some statue..

    • Julie LaBrecque

      You should check out the oldest churches in existence before opening mouth!!
      They all have altars and tabernacles. Pray tell, what would stand in between the altar and the tabernacle?? A Priest. and where there are altars, there is incense. PLEASE READ THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS! It is “revealing”. Most modern protestant churches have thrown out the altars, no tabernacle, and they put a pulpit with a preacher on the “stage”, at least that’s the term used here where I live.

      • krinks

        The oldest of churches was/is described in the Book of Acts It was comprised of Jewish believers in the Messiah that still met in the Synagogues. It took a bit of time before the Temple authorities saw them as a threat and had them cast out. There were no idolaters nor anyone that taught obedience to a human authority for salvation.

      • redeemed

        if the catholic church was following the system of tabernacle worship, they would not be replacing passover with ishtar.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Aren’t you cute! Is this from Shepherd’s Chapel? Or, Lorraine Boettner? Hislop? Geez, wonder which it might be. Get a life.
          Do you know many churches “face East’? Do you know that most people are buried “facing East” (Be sure to leave instructions for your mortician NOT to bury you facing East). Gosh, I wonder if they do that in honor of Ishtar? Perhaps? Is Jesus going to show up in the “eastern sky”, and be seen from EAST to WEST? Hum. I recall he rose in the “morning”. If I recall my 4th grade science correctly, The SUN (Jesus, our SON), aka, the “light of the world”, rises in the EAST.

  • krinks

    The fact that you can so blatantly lie about the scriptures In trying to defend the Roman Catholic Church invalidates everything else you teach and say.
    Ephesians 2 among many others tells us that salvation is by faith alone and yet the Council of Trent declares God’s curse of eternal damnation against anyone who says salvation is by faith alone.
    The Unum Sanctum says there is no salvation without obedience to the Pope. ‘Nuff said. The Roman Catholic Church is a heretical imposter. Shame on you.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      No it doesn’t! Show me any place where faith and alone are together, and I’ll show you that there is ONE place and only one place where “faith alone” is used. James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works, AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE.”

      • Julie LaBrecque

        The problem with many Christians is that they think it is only ONE thing that saves us. According to the Bible, there are SEVERAL things that have to occur to bring about final salvation, We have to confess with our mouths, we have to “believe”, we have to have fruit, we have to love our neighbor, forgive our neighbor, give alms, have a knowledge of truth, by repentance, by grace, by his blood, by his cross, by his righteousness, by baptism, etc. Its not a one stop shop to be his disciple.

      • krinks

        Ephesians chapter two. “8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” – Your heretical church hath declared an anathema against what Paul clearly declared.
        I thank you for being so jumping ugly about clear Biblical teachings. Your words prove The Roman Catholic Church as pagan nonsense. Every time someone like Wahlid tries to teach as you do and pretend it Christian it is important for someone like you to show up, defend your church, and ultimately fail. It shows the folly of the ecumenical movement.
        As for Wahlid I sincerely hopes he does read the proclamations of the Council of Trent as well as the Unum Sanctum. No right thinking person can read either one, compare them to scripture, and still call himself a follower of Christ for accepting either one. Ultimately when he/you figures out they don’t line up, either they leave your church or trust in its leaders. The same leaders who in their defending of pedophilia/pedophiles have proven themselves ungodly wicked. By their fruits yet shall know them.

        • redeemed

          you are right in every point krinks. rome is on Daniel’s statue of pagan kingdoms as surely as babylon persia greece and the ‘ONE’ who is ‘YET TO COME”, the ottoman empire. you cant fill your ‘churches’ with statues and pray to them without disobeying the Commandments of God who says not to even MAKE an image, let alone light candles in front of it and implore it to intervene with God for you. Jesus said the dead are asleep in the dust awaiting the resurrection.

    • shoebat

      krinks, when someone writes “you can so blatantly lie …”, I stop reading the rest. For someone to accuse someone of lying they need to present: 1-that the person knows the fact 2-that the person KNOWINGLY presented the falsehood. One could have made a falsity, but this does not mean that they lied. In other words, you slandered and by that I can correctly call you a slanderer. And then you have the audacity to say “shame on you”? Someone could even be spreading a lie, but even that does not mean they are liars, it means that they are deceived. Then you present a statement without giving any quotes “The Unum Sanctum says there is no salvation without obedience to the Pope”. Where is your quote?

      • krinks

        No matter how you spin it, in defending the Roman Catholic Church, you aren’t telling the truth. Try Ken Johnson’s ‘Early Church Fathers’. In it you’ll see a point by point rebuttal of nearly every Roman Catholic teaching using both scripture and early church writings.

      • krinks

        As for the Unum Sanctum and the Council of Trent look both of them up lest you think I am making something up. No right thinking person can read the Bible, those two proclamations, and honestly still call themselves a follower of Christ.

        Here is the last line of the Unum Sanctum from a Roman Catholic source; “Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. “.

  • krinks

    Read Ken Johnson’s ‘Early Church Fathers’ and you’ll see a point by point rebuttal of nearly everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches using early church sources including this topic. Wahid couldn’t be more wrong were he lying on this topic.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Read Eusebius if you want the most respected work of early church history.

      • Woody

        yah, it’s always the people who came 1517+ years after Jesus who think they know the most.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          So true. They don’t realize that the early church was very Jewish, I believe they were referred to in one region as “the new Jewish sect” and also the “Jewish Chrestus sect” Even Peter says he has never eaten any unclean thing with unclean peoples, so God gave him the vision of “kill and eat”, and had the HS descend on Cornelius, so he would get it through his head that it was time to bring the gentiles into the Church.

          • Woody

            Yes, they read Scripture and the period of Jesus’ time through the prism of today’s eyeglasses (2014); I’m sure most believe that Jesus had a copy of the NT and read from it often-Yah-right! I’ll bet they even believe that Jesus drove a Volkswagan (sp?)- I notice a subtle difference in our favorite scriber; he is getting more Christian towards you…IO just came from Mass and Fr Blau gave out one of the best things I have seen–it is a long 2 page document of “all of the Prophecies made by the Prophets (way back 400-1000’s of years before Jesus predicting all of the things that would happen to Him and what “the Messiah” would be like. He did a neat thing in the list,forming it like a quiz: e.g., “Messiah would…”, OT – Genesis 3:15-NT – Matthew :20-Galations 4:4
            People are supposed to finish the sentence after “would” I think only you could do this…God Bless – did you get my query last night where are the verses when Jesus said he would set family member against family member…etc.?

          • Woody

            Yes, they read Scripture and the period of Jesus’ time through the prism of today’s eyeglasses (2014); I’m sure most believe that Jesus had a copy of the NT and read from it often-Yah-right! I’ll bet they even believe that Jesus drove a Volkswagan (sp?)- I notice a subtle difference in our favorite scriber; he is getting more Christian towards you…IO just came from Mass and Fr Blau gave out one of the best things I have seen–it is a long 2 page document of “all of the Prophecies made by the Prophets (way back 400-1000’s of years before Jesus predicting all of the things that would happen to Him and what “the Messiah” would be like)” He did a neat thing in the list,forming it like a quiz: e.g., “Messiah would…”, OT – Genesis 3:15-NT – Matthew :20-Galations 4:4

            People are supposed to finish the sentence after “would” I think only you could do this…God Bless – did you get my query last night where are the verses when Jesus said he would set family member against family member…etc.?

            ScRent just told me he has no pictures in his house? Now he is really strange?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I haven’t seen the post yet, will look, but I do know it the verse. I think it will play out something like this- a family member is threatened with harm, so they deny Jesus, become Muslim, then “rat out” family members to remain in ‘good standing’.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          they fail to realize that the Book of James warns against anybody wanting to be a teacher because they will be held to a higher standard.

          • Woody

            Yes, and faux catholic does not want me reading his posts because I point out that he never tell the truth; one would think that if one has no knowledge of what they are saying they would be embarrassed to display their ignorance (I mean this in the Christian way–lack of knowledge); let’s face it what he does is take a verse out of his bible and post it-a fifth grader can do this just as well; he must think that he is the only one in the world who has a bible which we gave him – 325 AD; they have no knowledge of history which Walid says in his well-researched articles; several are upset with him and it is these same people who hate the Truth always ignoring the most important thing Jesus ever said, “Know the Truth and…….that is why Walid who grew up in prejudice can spot it so easily and despises it. Now the other guy how doesn’t pay any rent upstairs is just locked in always giving his buddy he devil a voice in his posts and does not every realize–he says the same thing over and over and over again, but cannot answer a simple query, since they believe bible is A Sola player- “where is the Church Jesus founded today–I have posted that quiz for 4 months and only one person answered it and–he answered it correctly, lady madonna, Dusty, has not even tackled it. Disappointed in her. I don’t think they will read Eusebius or any of the Church Fathers, because therein lies truth. When Scott Hahn decided to read the early Church Fathers, he exclaimed, oh no–I am in the wrong church; this is nothing like we protestants believe..but at least he was in the right pew…I had a priest who told me he took a class at Franciscan University where he teaches i believe Theology, and the priest laughed, saying, “you know he teaches just like a protestant minister, peripatetic style, and preaching, sometimes soft, sometimes loud–he enjoyed it very much. Did I tell you I got a wonderful thing at Mass today; Fr Blau handed me a paper which list all the old time Prophets who predicted Jesus hundreds of years before; boy that must have taken him a long time. I sent it on to my gorgeous Prot girl friend who is teaching bible school at the beach.Micah is the one I recognize who pegged Jesus right. 119 verse that predicted Jesus coming or some personal traits which fit him like a glove. I’m glad your not short with your verses like me.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Amen brother

    • shoebat

      I second that.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    You should study the Davidic Kingdom, which is the kingdom prophesied would always exist. Jesus is the “son” of David his father. Solomon is the true son of David, the Old Testament proto-type of Jesus. And what happened after Solomon was placed on his throne? His mother, Bathsheba, entered the throne room, Solomon rose and bowed when she entered, and brought a seat for her. And what does Bathsheba, the queen mother do? She interceded for the people. Now let’s look at John’s gospel, Wedding in Cana. The party runs out of wine, Mary intercedes for them, and Jesus fulfills her request and changes the water into wine, EVEN THOUGH HIS HOUR HAD NOT YET COME. Have you ever interceded for a fellow believer? All intercessory prayer is taken to Jesus. If you think strictly of which you wrote above, you should never make intercessory prayers for anybody but yourself. Psalm 132:8 “Arise, Lord, come to your resting place, YOU AND YOUR MIGHTY ARK”

    • Goten Loves Life and Apples

      Solomon is nothing like Jesus Christ in fact Solomon turned into a horrible King who put up images of Baal and Moloch in the holy temple. Solomon was also very warped spiritually with over a thousand wives and he built pagan alters for them to boot. In other words he started out on the right track but it didn’t take long for his true colors to show and that is why he was nowhere near as righteous as King David let alone the pure hearted Jesus Christ.

      • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

        It might surprise you to learn that SAMSON is an Old Testament figure of Christ — playboy that he was! St Matthew makes many references to Samson to show how the Scripture prepared for Christ. Even Samson carrying off the city gates is a picture of Christ carrying the wood of the Cross.
        And though Solomon strayed into many faults, God used him, too, to prepare the way for Jesus’ coming, and indeed to show positive things, despite Solomon’s faults. God is bigger than you are. His plan is bigger, His perspective broader, His love wider and deeper.
        Solomon indeed is the ancestor of St Joseph, through the line of David’s throne in Jerusalem, unbroken until the Babylonian Exile. This had to be, though that “tree of Jesse” was “chopped down” by the Babylonians. Afterward, the line from David’s son, Nathan (named for the Prophet who rebuked King David!) “sprouted from the roots of Jesse”, a “new Branch” (Netser –> Nazar-eth) was the line from which Maryam, Jesus’ Mother, came.
        St Irenaeus, the first Systematic Theologian of the Church, ca. 180, points out that the enthroned line, represented by Jeconiah, or “Coniah”, is cursed by Jeremiah (22:24-30), that his offspring will never again sit on David’s Throne. This applied to St Joseph, a devout man whom God chose to protect His Son; but Joseph could not be the biological father of Messiah.
        However, David knew (Ps. 132) that “of the fruit of thy BETEN” God promised him a greater Son. ‘Beten’ occurs 68 times in the Hebrew Bible. 30 times, it is “belly”; 30 times, it is “womb” in particular; 8 times, it is “body” in general. So we can see the part of the body that is meant by the term. It is NOT the way one speaks of a Man’s descendants! (fruit of the loins) So when Elizabeth speaks of the Blessed Fruit of [Maryam’s] Womb, it is This passage of Scripture which the Holy Spirit has brought to her mind & mouth. Elizabeth calls Maryam “the Mother of my LORD” — using a term that Jews of the day used ONLY FOR GOD HIMSELF! Elizabeth calls Maryam “The Mother of God.” THAT’s BECAUSE of WHO JESUS IS! Evangelicals do not deny His Deity. He is GOD ETERNAL even at the moment of His Conception. He did not “become” a demi-god later on.
        The heretic Nestorios denied this ancient title to Maryam in the late 300s. But look at his arguments! His problem was, he had a woolly mind. He couldn’t think his way out of a paper bag! Let that not be said of our Evangelical Brothers & Sisters! To say Mary is the Mother of God means Her SON JESUS is the Eternal GOD, not that she somehow became mother of God the Father! That would be unadulterated nonsense.

        • Goten Loves Life and Apples

          First off Issac was a Christ like figure and so was Joseph who was carried off into Egypt as a slave, not to mention Boaz was also a Christ like man and King David was a man after Gods own heart. I also would consider Abel to be a Christlike man and then lets not forget about John the Baptist ether. As for Solomon i couldn’t say the same for him because despite asking God for wisdom he ended up going down a dark road not to mention he had a thousand wives aka talk about a womanizer. Lastly i agree concerning the divinity of Christ that he was always God and always shall be God but to address my final issue i know of people who pray to angels or Mary instead of God and that’s just not right in the eyes of God.

          • Woody

            well I never heard of that, anyone praying “instead of God” for that is just Dumb! I’m glad they are not in my church but,as Jesus, predicted-one finds heretics everywhere; how about that first one Simon Magus that St Peter put the proverbial boots to..
            nothing new here under the sun…

        • michelletherese

          Fascinating!! But in the modern translations it seems that Psalm 132 states, “one of your descendants” and nothing about “fruit of thy womb” … which verse is this phrase found in??

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Psalm 132:11. You need an accurate translation, not a paraphrase.

      • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

        (God uses us for His purposes, despite our failures, our flaws, even our flat-out rebellions! That is the lesson taught throughout the Bible. Don’t sell God short and miss His Point! He loves us too much for that! So He uses Even someone like King Solomon! Look deeper than you have before at this, and be amazed. “What wondrous love is this? O my soul, O my soul!”)

        • Woody

          Fr. Have you read The Diary of St. Faustina? Isn’t that a hoot – I love her daily repete with Jesus; it is so cute, and the things she asked Him for–she is so polite, “Would you do me a favor?” (paraphrase) Jesus “Sure what is it? “i want you to save all of the souls who are to die today?” Now–that is quite a request, and Jesus acceded. But what i love most is that she has found the secret of like itself; only if more people knew: (her prayer) [This is from an “uneducated person–she had to have had the help of the Holy Spirit with this and her diary] (A lady ii Church whispered to me. “Now there’s a lady who could have used a valium.” Cute.

          O My God

          When I look into the future I am frightened.

          But why plunge into the future?

          Only the present moment is precious to me,

          As the future may never enter my soul at all,

          – It is no longer in my power
          – To change, correct, or add to the past;
          – For neither sages nor prophets could do that
          – And so what the past has embraced I must entrust

          To God

          O present moment you belong to me whole and entire,

          I desire to use you as best I can,

          And although I am meek and small,

          You grant me the grace of your omnipotence,

          And so, trusting in Your Mercy,

          I walk through life like a little child,

          Offering You each day this heart,

          Burning with love Your greater glory,

          J.M.J. [Jesus, Mary, and Joseph]

          God and souls

          King of Mercy, guide my soul,

          Saint Faustina

      • Woody

        Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  • shoebat

    Fr. Christopher. Wish you could write articles on the subjects you bring forth. The Shroud of Turin was slandered because of stupid scientists, yet it was later proven true. But it was through me being always slandered that I was able to understand that whomever is so slandered, they must have the truth. Thank you also for your comments on the Duetrocanonicals.

  • richinnameonly

    Oh Walid, look what you’ve done! I’m just catching up on articles here and came across this one that has stirred up a hornets nest in one day. Some other articles here of great importance get hardly a notice. What amazes me is that people have such tightly held views on something that has so many variations among “Christian religions” that they have no room for thought and examination. They read your article and are thrown totally off balance. Doesn’t seem like there is any one religion that has the absolute truth on all Christian practices. I don’t believe we yet know what the absolute truth is when it comes to all these things that may be acceptable to God or not. Some are obvious and some are not. I’m just glad we can agree on basics like the existence of God, Jesus sacrifice and a hope for the future. If you want idols (I’ll assume you don’t make them your God) you’ll probably enjoy a church that has all the visuals. If not, then wind up at a church that has none.
    I don’t understand the comments about thinking you are actually equating some christain religions with Islam just because there can be a commonality on a certain point. Look at all the Christian religions that wind up opposing Israel because of their replacement theology. That’s just one example.
    Keep them coming Walid, I don’t think you can get rid of me. Except if you return to Islam.

    • shoebat

      Indeed. And if some think I erred why do they not cut me some slack, try to correct or refute the verses I shared? These days many churches even remove the cross and put the globe instead. I love the cross. And if some reject symbols and icons, why do they include crosses?

    • Doesn’t seem like there is any one religion that has the absolute truth on all Christian practices
      You are probably right…however one thing is clear…the true Sabbath is on a Saturday and not Sunday…and by the way the Jewish faith celebrates it beginning on a Friday night which is also incorrect…It begins on a Saturday morning and ends on a Saturday evening which is how it should be observed…Is it okay to begin to observe it a little early??? I am not the one to decide that however I think holding services on a Friday evening is in fact wrong to take the place of Saturday services…

  • shoebat

    Ron, what you write about Constantine is false. Show me one historian who would agree with what you said? Where are your references? But if you care to read what history has, please try to refute: https://shoebat.com/2013/09/21/constantine-create-catholic-church/

  • Luke 11:27-28 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
    28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Think Jesus broke the 4th commandment? Why not just come out and say it instead of hiding behind a smoke screen. She was the example he was referring to because she perfectly Heard the word of God and Kept IT. Mary’s cooperation and devotion in carrying out God’s plan make her more blessed than her body parts.

      • Think Jesus broke the 4th commandment?
        Never!!!
        However Mary herself said she was in need of a Savior which means that even she sinned…The Catholics say the Rosary which is clearly blasphemy against God…Ten Hail Marys to One Our Father….How bad is that??? I was raised catholic until I found God’s truth now no more…will not ever go back…

        • Julie LaBrecque

          If you knew the rosary, you would know that it honors every stage of Jesus’ life, each decade is divided so, from the annunciation, conception, resurrection and ascension in heaven. There are 2 events relating to Mary in the glorious mysteries, all the rest is JESUS. You claim you were raised Catholic, you must have been a very poor Catholic since you can’t explain the Rosary. Since you want to charge it is blasphemy against God, being that the rosary HONORS JESUS, do you believe that Jesus is God? Is He offended of devotion to every stage of His life? I don’t believe God has a beef with beads, they are similar to the knots in the tassels of the prayer shawl, I think He actually prescribed the knots be made. So, let me ask you- How many times a day do you pray the “Our Father”. I bet zero if you’d be honest. Catholics that pray the Rosary daily say the “Our Father” at least SIX TIMES. And the “Glory Be to the Father'” six times to boot. Anxious to see how many times a day you pray the “Our Father”.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            ” I rejoice in God my Saviour”. Let me explain, you must have been real rotten at understanding the Catholic Faith. Mary was “saved” from sin at her conception. In other words, she was kept “saved” from falling into the mud pit, not after having falling in. If you want to get to the bottom of it, read it in the Greek, learn what Kecharitomene means, maybe you’ll get it. If someone is FULL OF GRACE, by implication, there is not room for anything else. Besides, all “vessels” used by God had to be “PURE”, she’s no different. Everything Mary had was graced to her by God himself, He’s not stingy.

          • 1Prophet

            I don’t care to know any more than I do about YOUR fake faith!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Does someone have a gun at your head? Why don’t you just scram out of here before you wear us all out.

          • Mary was “saved” from sin at her conception. In other words, she was kept “saved” from falling into the mud pit, not after having falling in.
            OMG…The Catholic church has really taken you off the deep end …Mary was born with original sin just like everyone else except Jesus and she also had other children after Jesus…I repeat get out of this babylonian church system you are in!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Albeit- were all of God’s sacred Vessels pure and Holy?

          • PURE MY ASS….we are all dirty rotten sinners in need of forgiveness through God’s saving grace…You are going to be in for a very rude awakening when you meet the Lord My Dear…I’ll bet 100 to 1 this is never said from the Catholic pulpit

            1 Timothy 4:1-3 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

          • Woody

            This is actually funny from a guy who never tells the truth,for one thing he forgets what he said on his last ;post: he applies this to others because of his false “interpretations” – he does not even realize that all he ever does is prove he can read (barely):

            “1 Timothy 4:1-3 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars,”

            “What is the pillar and foundation of Truth,” Paul asks?

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            the “Ke-” at the beginning of “Ke-charito-me’ne” makes it the Perfect Tense in Greek. Its deeper sense is “*Perfected* in Grace.”

          • Woody

            Why would he know this; it take a scholar to understand these concepts.

          • Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
            You never ask me to explain the Rosary my dear…but why…I know all about the mysteries, stations of the cross, etc etc etc…Yes God does have a beef with beads as the former indicates…do I pray the Our Father…well sometimes depending on my mood but when I do pray it is meaningful and from the heart which is more than I can say for many Catholics

          • Julie LaBrecque

            How do you know how Catholics prayer in their private prayer? The Rosary is a DEVOTIONAL prayer. Quit levying charges against people you don’t even know. Please read response to 1prophet. You guys think you have us cornered with every attack. Psalm 136 repeats “for his mercy endures forever” 26 times! The 4 living creatures IN HEAVEN cry out DAY AND NIGHT the same exact words according to Rev 4:8. Since you don’t understand liturgical worship, while claiming to have “superior” knowledge than us stupid Catholics, you don’t know the Psalms are used for liturgical worship. The events happening in Heaven as revealed in the Book of Revelations are done in liturgical style.

          • 1Prophet

            We will never know what you pray in private, for you like to pray where man can see you & you may not ever pray in private. You just can’t help but trip yourself up in every words you say, because it is rote & it has yet to come from your heart. For you are spiritually dead in your trespasses & sins as anyone who holds to the false doctrines of Catholicism. Don’t misquote me. I didn’t say Catholics, because some have put the doctrines of demons under their feet and have actually asked the Lord Jesus to come into their hearts on a personal basis! Not RELIGION which is what crucified Jesus to begin with!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I feel sorry for your wife if you’re married.

          • liturgical, SURGICAL, REGURGICAL…whatever

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You might want to figure it out. We’re talking about God here, not you or me.

          • michelletherese

            The rosary is nothing more then a devotional. It is not an issue of salvation, it does not save us, it is not a requirement, no one is ever *required* to utilize this style of meditation. So holding up the rosary as some kind of evidence that Catholics are breaking commandments is a straw man.

          • The rosary is nothing more then a devotional….
            You can say that again…And may I asked who is it devoted too??? Don’t bother I think I already know…Hail Mary etc…

          • Woody

            You missed the Our Father but you keep giving ;proof they you were never Catholic, and that is a good thing for it exposes yourself as such.

          • Steve Smith

            michelletherese. the ex Catholics and Orthodox I meet who wish

          • The rosary is nothing more then a devotional. It is not an issue of salvation, it does not save us
            Boy ain’t that the truth!!!! Tell that to the millions of Catholics that think that it does and by the way who exactly is it devoted toooo???

          • Woody

            Like so many Prots they are the only people who “tell others what they believe…” No since at all and again; when i wanted to know what my Methodist wife believed I would “ask her,” but this concept is too deep for them-why? Because it would expose their lies, and since “they have eyes but they do not see; ears but they do not hear…” and (If I may, Jesus)…”make it up when they know nothing.”

          • 1Prophet

            The Rosary is Idolatry & repetitious prayer Jesus said not to do!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He said VAIN REPETITIONS, not repetitious prayer. Do you recite the prayer that Jesus taught us? By your standard, a believer should only say it once and never again. You must not read the psalms, especially 136 “for his mercy endures forever” is repeated 26 TIMES!! Maybe you haven’t read the book of revelations either. “day and night they do not stop exclaiming ‘HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.” And these 4 living creatures are in Heaven without being kicked out for “vain repetitions”. Why don’t you Catholic bashers focus your energy elsewhere and leave us alone.

          • 1Prophet

            More the reason that it is idolatry, because it is vain or USELESS lifeless words! You can’t let go or your Satanic beliefs can you, even though it will of HAS killed you!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I think you are beyond hope of ever acknowledging that you have boxed yourself in with all your prejudicial biases, because anytime anybody has brought evidence to refute any assertion of yours, you just respond with another unfounded attack.

          • Woody

            Yah, I noticed that, too; but he starts with erroneous thinking and then comes around until his mind searches for something that seems to support it (thank you Aristotle)
            Julie you are so good, so brilliant–you should have been a ;priest (OOPs! sorry) Without a logical mind, though he will miss all of what you say because it is so “logical.”
            God Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Well, being rational and logical has always been used against me, God gave me a brain with not one shred of creativity, my kids hated to play Pictionary with me because I couldn’t even draw a good stick man! My mind was all math, science, and solving puzzles, so, I stand today, still the product of what God made me to be.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The Rosary has been called “The Gospel on a String.” It has helped millions of Christians over the centuries to learn, and pray through, the Life of JESUS, and grow in His grace. I thank God that Pope John Paul II added the “Mysteries of Light” to the original 15, to put before us the great moments of JESUS’ teaching ministry. (I’d always felt that great moments like the Transfiguration were ‘missing’.) Now they are fully present, and enrich our spiritual life in the Lord.

          • Woody

            Yes, my Missionary friend just told me about a month ago (this is so great) that last year and the year before he, and his Order< were given 18,000,000 Rosaries to hand out and they are gone already. No wonder, as Fr Paqua has said 8-9 million Africans have been converted to Christ the past few years. Go Mary…keep leading them to your Son..

          • OH HOW YOU WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A FEMALE GOD TO PRAY TO!!!!! SO GO AHEAD AND PRAY TO MARY !!! YOUR DAY OF JUDGEMENT IS COMING!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Jesus is listening !! (he can read hearts)

          • Woody

            Right–“Jesus I hated and denigrated your Mother but will you let me into Heaven, anyway.” How dumb is that?

          • Woody, woody, woody…when will you ever learn…Mary is not the spiritual mother of God…Jesus does not have a spiritual mother…never once did Jesus call Mary his mother…It ain’t in the bible…you are sooooo confused

          • Woody

            “Learning?” You’re in dire need of an education; get rid of your false ;pride, and read the early Church Fathers (those who were there at or closest to the time of Christ; Without the Anchor of Christ’s Church look how far you have drifted and continue to move off the course of God’s love:

            [note also that those of us who follow Christ’s “Know the Truth an d the Truth shall set you free,” and “Seek and you shall find” always post our SOURCES as required by Walid since he knows that NOT posting sources indicates nothing more than prejudices]

            Amidst all the stimulating discussion here about the Catholic doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity, it
            ocurred to me that it would be instructive to point out that both Martin Luther and John Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, and Wesley — the progenitors of the three major branches of the Protestant Reformation –all held firmly to this Catholic teaching. For your consideration, let me add here some pertinent quotes from these two Protestant leaders.

            I’d respectfully ask our Evangelical and Fundamentalist friends here to think carefully about these quotes and consider just how far modern-day Protestantism has drifted from its 16th-century moorings, not to mention how very far it has drifted from the fifteen centuries of the Catholic Faith that preceded the Protestant Reformation.

            Martin Luther
            (his writings)

            Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

            SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress
            Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

            Luther: “Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really
            mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call
            cousins brothers.”

            SOURCE: , ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } [Luther}

            SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she
            later lost her virginity . . .”

            Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
            know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
            nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

            “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
            Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

            John Calvin

            Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in
            concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

            SOURCE: {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr.
            William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

            [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform
            us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

            SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

            “Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

            {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

            Huldreich Zwingli

            ZWINGLI: “He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical
            defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . “To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting – not prayer – ‘Hail Mary’ . . . “God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including
            the saints and angels – it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow.”

            ‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . .
            There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

            ZWINGLI: SOURCE: {G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London:
            Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The
            Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

            Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’

            {Thurian, ibid., p.76}

            ZWINGLI: “I have never thought, still less taught, or
            declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of
            holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”

            {Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

            Heinrich Bullinger

            SOURCE: “Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s
            perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious
            as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .

            Bullinger: ‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified
            by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’

            SOURCE: {In Hilda Graef, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

            John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)

            “I believe… he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”

            SOURCE: {“Letter to a Roman Catholic,” quoted in A. C. Coulter, John Wesley, New York: Oxford University Press, 1964, 495}

          • Woody

            By the way you are still unable to solve my quiz:

            REMEMBER JESUS, OUR DEVINE FOUNDER’S Biblical Words “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus and now let us put it to the test to these brilliant guys and gals on this site:

            In going on 5 months now, no one (except 2 and they got it
            right) has been able to solve or even guess at the answer to my quiz?

            How come no one else can solve the “mystery?” — Why
            — the Largest Christian Church in the World by far with 1.2 Billion members (the Catholic Church); yet, no Founder of this Church apparently can be found (an oxymoron?)

            All churches have a founder—why not this one???
            [NOTE ALSO THAT ALL BUT ONE CHURCH WERE FOUNDED BY MERE MEN AND THEY CAN CITE NOT AUTHORITY TO DO SO–ONLY JESUS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO FOUND HIS CHURCH….AND HE DID…

            Have at it, people.

            FORMAT AS BELOW:

            Christian & Bible Churches
            Founder
            Year
            Country
            Nr: Members

            Judaism
            Moses
            B.C.
            Israel

            10.7 MILLION
            Catholic Church
            Founder?????
            28 A.D.
            Judea

            1.2 BILLION
            Lutheranism
            Martin Luther
            1517 A.D.
            Germany

            75 MILLION
            Swiss Reformed Church
            Zwingli
            1523 A.D.
            Switzerland

            2.4 MILLION
            Mennonites
            Several Founders
            1525 A.D.
            Switzerland
            1.5 MILLION

            Anglican Communion

            King Henry 8 I AM I AM
            1534 A.D.
            England
            85 MILLION

            Calvinism
            John Calvin
            1536 A.D.
            Switzerland
            80 MILLION

            Presbyterianism
            John Knox
            1560 A.D.
            Scotland
            40 MILLION

            Baptist Churches
            John Smyth
            1605 A.D.
            Holland
            100 MILLION

            Dutch Reformed
            Michaelis Jones
            1628 A.D.
            Netherlands
            2 MILLION

            Methodism
            John Wesley (Charles wrote many hymns)
            1739 A.D.
            England
            75 MILLION

            TOTAL ALL PROTESTANTISM
            600-800 MILLION

            Amish
            Jakob Ammann
            1693 A.D.
            Switzerland
            0.25 MILLION
            Quakers

            George Fox
            1647 A.D.
            England
            0.4 MILLION

            Moravians
            Count Zinendorf
            1727 A.D.
            Germany

            Congregationlists
            Robert Browne
            1592 A.D.
            England

            Swedenborg
            Emanuel Swedenborg
            1747 A.D.
            Sweden

            Brethren (SAY AIN’T THIS THE GUY WHOSE VOLKS-WAGON WILL BE EMPTY WHEN HE GETS RUPTURED?
            John Darby
            1828 A.D.
            England

            Latter-day Saints
            Joseph Smith
            1830 A.D.
            NY, USA
            15.2 MILLION

            Seventh Day Adventists
            Ellen White
            1860 A.D.
            NH, USA

            Salvation Army
            William Booth
            1865 A.D.
            England

            Jehovah’s Witnesses
            Charles Russell
            1870 A.D.
            PA, USA
            7.65 MILLION

            Christian Science
            Mary Baker Eddy
            1879 A.D.
            Pleasant View, NH USA

            Pentecostalism
            Charles Parham
            1900 A.D.
            CA, USA

            Worldwide Church of God
            Herbert W. Armstrong
            1933/1947 A.D.
            OR, USA 3

            Unification Church
            Sun Myung Moon
            1954 A.D.
            South Korea

            [MY AND A NEW HERESY GREW ONLY YESTERDAY–THAT OF ‘WOMEN PRIESTS” SO PROTESTANTISM WENT UP ONE MORE NOTCH–NOW WENT FROM 42,387 TO 42,388….]

        • michelletherese

          The “Hail Mary” never once suggests that Mary is God, or a god.

          • Oooooooh Paaaaaleeeeesssse!!!!
            Hail Mary full of grace…
            Only when she was pregnant with the baby Jesus…Not before nor after and certainly not now!!!
            the Lord is with Thee…
            Really!!!!!! Are you trying to tell me that the Lord is subserviant to Mary???? It should instead say she is with the Lord!!! Better still neither is the case
            blessed are you among women
            They may have gotten that one correct
            and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus
            Here we go …Can’t let go of the Babylonian Mother goddess mindset…that occurred long ago ..get over it….Jesus is no longer a baby…
            Holy Mary, Mother of God
            I am about ready to puke!!! “Mother of God” I don’t no where to begin…this is a horrendeous statement…never utter those words again other wise you are guilty of idol worship!!! She is no longer holy any more than any of the other dead saint’s are holy
            pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen”.
            Say what??? Mary is awaiting her resurrection like everyone else…She’s deader than a doorknob…Let me suggest that you stop praying to her and pray strictly to the Lord instead…and know the truth because the glorious truth will set you free!!!

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Pssst! Albeit, I’ll let you in on a secret! She appeared in Mexico in 1531, not very dead at all! It led to the conversion of Indian nations in droves! She revealed herself as “Te coatla-xo-pe” (I hope I’ve spelled the Nauatl correctly!) = “She who tramples the serpent” — the Aztecs knew then that their own serpent-god was trampled. They turned to Christ. The Spaniards thought they heard “de Guadalupe” – something they knew from Spain. So she united both cultures… GOD acted to lead more people to HIMSELF, through her. And don’t sell God short. He uses even our little steps toward Him; He does not condemn us if we don’t always take large strides. Like a Good Father, HE rejoices even when His children take little steps forward. Of course, He loves it when they take giant steps, too. We all need to be more generous-hearted toward one another.

          • She did not appear but it was a deception by Satan…Listen very closely to the words she speaks at these various apparitions…they sound righteous but are the deceptive words of Satan himself…they run contrary to scripture which is the true Word of God
            2 Corinthians 11:13-15
            For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

            I ask you Sir if not the Catholic church than who are they talking about and if not Mary apparitions than who are they talking about???

            2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
            And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Bias twists your mind, friend. 2 Cor. 11:13-15 best describes a cult that sprang into existence in 1830, in upstate New York, the work of a deceiver, if ever there were one!
            And are you accusing the Ever-Blessed Virgin Mary, chosen by God for her unique role in Your Salvation, as a “lawless one”?? You must remember that to a Jew, the Law = the Torah in particular, the whole of the Hebrew Bible in general. It was “the lawless” ones who crucified Jesus — the gentiles, who were “without the Law.” I can assure you, the Lord God of Heaven, JESUS, will not destroy His Mother!

          • Go ahead and pray to your female god with the devotional rosary said to her…I will pray instead to the One Most High God…Yashua Hamesiach

          • Woody

            I can’t seem to find albeit in the Sola Scriptura where there is any verse that seems he is competent to “interpret” Scripture; gee, maybe he thinks Jesus made a mistake – oh I know-I bet it was Mary’s fault.
            There is nothing in the Bible that says “the pillar and foundation of truth (is Scripture); but St. Paul says –, “it’s the Church.”
            1 Timothy 3:15 but albeit left a long time ago…

          • Woody:
            If Satan was to disguise himself as a deceiver to deceive as many people on earth as possible in what form would he take??? I ask you Woody…since you consider yourself such a brilliant theologian and are a “LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND” what would be your answer??? If not the Mary apparitions than who???

          • Woody

            You don’t know where it came from; for one: (and you are right in good company on an issue that was solved long ago by the First Christians: (Heretics never seem to go away; now we have Nestorius back after all these centuries)

            Theotokos is a Greek word that means “God-bearer” or “Mother of God”. It is a title assigned by the early Christian Church to Mary, the mother of Jesus, at the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. The theological
            significance at the time was to emphasize that Mary’s son, Jesus, was fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus’ two natures (divine and human) were united in a single
            person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning “Mother of Christ”. This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of “Christ’s humanity” and not His Divine nature.

            Nestorius’ view was anathematised by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Mary being mother of God the Son is therefore duly entitled Mother of God.

            Calling Mary the “Mother of God” was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed. The
            Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: “He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos.”

          • The Muslims only acknowledge the human part of Jesus by calling him the Son of Mary…I disagree with your thesis that Mary is the Mother of God because God is spirit and not flesh…You cannot join the two together…the flesh is against the spirit and the spirit is against the flesh

        • Woody

          What a joke more proof that he has never been a Catholic; ask him if he believes in the “Gospel” and he will say yes–well, that is the way Mary designed her Rosary–the Rosary IS the Gospel, each bead representing an event in Her Son’s life:
          Sorrowful:
          The Agony in the Garden
          The Scourging at the Pillar
          The Crowning with Thorns
          Jesus carries His Cross
          Jesus is Nailed to the Cross
          Does this guy possess any smarts, one lie after another; reminds me of BO, our faux Pres
          Padre Pio thought so much of the Rosary he never called it a Rosary–he said, “Hand me my weapon.’ So he certainly recalled Our Lady saving Christianity at the Battle of Lepanto when, after the far outnumbered Christian fleet took up their “weapons” and suddenly the Turkish fleet was becalmed.”
          Another example of him not knowing any thing about history,especially Christian history; look at Walid – he came from a Muslm background yet he has no trouble finding Truth and that is because he has no “prejudice” in him; he knows that “prejudice” is like poison in the human body, and we see it in this guy’s every post…

    • shoebat

      Jesus did not rebuke the women, He said “more than that”. In other words, in addition I say …
      So still, Mary was blessed and the Bible says that she will be called blessed throughout all generations. Now, which one of the two honored the Word of God on this? Catholics or Protestants?

      • I was raised Catholic…many of them still believe she is in heaven and acts as a co-redemptrix…In other words she hears our prayers that is for those that pray to her…I do not…She is awaiting her resurrection like all of the other saints…My brother in law prays the Hail Mary before each meal for world peace ….Yea right…I do not follow along…Praying to her and expecting her to hear your prayers and calling her blessed are entirely two different things…

        • Billkammerer

          So, you are saying that Mary, the Mother of Jesus – Jesus, the second person of the Holy Trinity – Jesus The God Man – Jesus – the Savior of the World – Jesus through Whom the Universe was created – Jesus consubstantial with The Father – THAT Jesus – isn’t in Heaven with him? In Hebrews 11:5, we are told that Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death. And in Sirach 44:16 we are told that Enoch walked with the Lord and was taken up that succeeding generations might learn by his example. And in 2 KIngs 1 – 13 we see that Elija was taken up into Heaven bodily. If God would take Elija and Enoch up into Heaven, why would he not do the same for His Mother?

          Would you not do it for yours?

          • Well for one thing sir it certainly would have been mentioned in the bible if that was the case…It is not and for your to assume so… well we all know what that means…and another thing do you pray to Elijah and Enoch??? I’m curious…How much power do they have to answer your prayers and intercede on your behalf??? Why on earth don’t you just pray to the one that created them isn’t his power so much greater??? Maybe this verse will wake you up out of you trance …Romans 1:25 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

          • Billkammerer

            Hi there, albeit! Hope you are having a good day.

            Where do you get your authority to interpret scripture? For that matter, What does the Bible say is the pillar and foundation of truth?

          • Woody

            That is because you are SOS on Sola Scriptura; anyone that believes that the Bible contains all information is definitely a follower of a lowly defrocked priest, not Jesus. No man other than Jesus was ever given the permission to found His Christian Church and He did that quite admirably without your or my help. Like I am her to help you; I am with the government.” Yah, another lie exposed.

        • shoebat

          albeit, is Mary the Mother of God? Here is why I ask: Muslims say “Jesus son of Mary”. Do you know why they use that phrase? It is because Muslims hate the Trinity and the idea that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, so do you have a problem with calling Mary Mother of God? Just curious.

          • Mr. Shoebat:
            Sorry about the delay…I have been out of town family funeral…some people have a life…Also your website isn’t always accessible on my computer not sure what is wrong
            Jesus was very careful on how he addressed his earthly mother Mary even as saintly as she may have been …Jesus never once addressed her as mother directly …You will not find one verse to where He does, if you do I would like to see it …He knew in advance how us humans would make a big deal about Mary being the mother of God…The reason is because we are a wicked and adulterous people and love our earthly lives more than the afterlife…Therefore she is awaiting her resurrection like all of the others and cannot answer our prayers even though Catholics firmly believe that she can…

          • Woody

            Nonsense; The early Christians were “manic” for relics of the fallen saints; but no one ever searched for Mary’s Body–because they knew it would not be there.

          • You really are an annoying jerk…Not know the difference between two saints…that’s really low punk…Go ahead and pray to your St. Anthony…Idol worshipper!!! And how can your be so sure he is even a saint??? Oh because the Catholic church says so …I see how you are…Your a religious NUTJOB!!! And you dare call your self Christian …Hah…Liar

          • Woody

            Your words reveal you…”idol worshiper.”
            Since God commanded that 2 angels be placed on the Ark of the Covenant (idols with your mind) AND His command to make that Serpent (idol in your mind) and have the people GAZE upon it for HEALING (something which you also deny), on both you with mind of a human, tests God by calling Him an “Idol worshiper”– -return and, along with your bud there [sickent},get your GED so you can compete with the rest of the posters. I will pray that God forgives you for you heresy.

          • sumsrent

            You are the biggest liar here Woody…
            Nobody in their right mind would call those “idols”… And I haven’t seen anyone call them “idols”…
            Therefore you falsely accuse others of what they believe!
            And… you’re the biggest instigator with Julie following a close second.

          • Woody

            You have eyes yet you do not see; you have ears yet you do not hear” – yet, you miss the aggrandizing beauty of Julie.

          • Woody

            Hey, dippy I knew it was only a matter of time for you lie to be exposed; TV just had a lady priest Protestant (did know you allowed women priests) but she and her church are putting up a plaque honoring Muslims at, about all places,in the museum dedicated to those who have died on 9/11–and also praising Jihad, so you are really off base not the One Holy Catholic Church of Jesus Christ and I bet you have idols around your house–pictures of your family–are you worshiping them in bashing scripture? Or like, Catholics paying honor to those we love. A Ah we-caught you, “Oh, Thou hypocrite,” Thank you Jesus

          • sumsrent

            I understand… both you and Julie are itching in your pants to find something to hold over my head…

            And now you claim I’ve lied? About what?

            Also… you can point out every non-catholic Church as being wrong for supporting satanic Islam… I won’t disagree!

            See… you think it’s all about anti-Catholic…

            WRONG!

            It’s about exposing satanic Islam and it’s lies, deceptions and cohorts. Which sadly includes the satanically influenced catholic fake church.

            If that bothers you… then good… it should.

            Now answer the question…
            Do you believe you worship the same fake god of satanic Islam which your popes claim you do?

            A simple yes or no would do it…

            If you’re a Christian these shouldn’t be difficult for you to answer?

          • shoebat

            Sumersent,

            For the third time, you always write: “Do you believe you worship the same fake god of satanic Islam …”

            Its time to set you straight. To be frank, I am getting tired of all you graffiti being posted all over my blog stating that the “Popes worship the same satanic God as Islam”. You provide no references without any context and I do not have time to be baby sitting you. You always post uneducated nonsense without proper context. It is true that Vatican entertained Muslims by complementing Islam, but what is so rarely circulated (by you and others) in the West is that it was the Christian Arab Patriarchs and Bishops who influenced such recognition in Vatican’s Nostra Aetate which included statements that “the Muslims’ have great respect for Mary, and Jesus,” that, “Islam has much in common with Christianity and Catholicism,” and that Muslims “worship One God.” Explaining how all this happened, came from the top when former Pope Benedict XVI in 2013 revealed confessing that such unprecedented recognition of Islam stemmed from “bishops of the Arab countries” who objected the recognition by Vatican of the Holocaust. Vatican wanted to mend relationships with Israel. Is that a sin?

            But what you seem to ignore (I addressed this) is that when discussions began regarding Catholic-Jewish relations, Benedict revealed:

            “ … to deepen and renew Christian awareness of this [The Holocaust] … the Arab countries—the bishops of the Arab countries—were unhappy about this: they feared somewhat a glorification of the State of Israel, which naturally they did not want. They said: fine, a truly theological statement about the Jewish people is good, it is necessary, but if you speak about that, speak of Islam too; only then will there be a balance …” *Pope Benedict on Nostra aetate, Tuesday, 19 March 2013.*

            Benedict then CONFESSES the grave sin:

            “In the process of active reception, a weakness of this otherwise extraordinary text has gradually emerged: it speaks of religion solely in a positive way and it disregards the sick and distorted forms of religion which, from the historical and theological viewpoints, are of far-reaching importance; for this reason the Christian faith, from the outset, adopted a critical stance towards religion, both internally and externally.” *Ibid*

            He called Islam “sick and distorted religion”. Why did you fail to mention this?

            So you can see clearly that while the error crept in, it didn’t go without confessing and exposing it. That as well as Nostra Aetate is not a major document as if it etched Catholic belief.

            Don’t forget that such influences has been going on for years regarding such issues influencing the Catholic Church coming from Evangelicals who are corrupt. For decades they tried influencing the Catholic Church. I will not get into depth on this here. Such Evangelicals do not represent the spirit of the Evangelical Church as a whole. So I do not go around and say that the Evangelical Church is ALL corrupt just as a result. Corruption is in all denominations as you already know that we are in the midst of a falling away. So please refrain from your graffiti.

          • Woody

            The only difference between the “idols” you have in your own home and the ones the early Christians had and continue today is that they are 3 dimensional; ask Walid as he is an Engineer and is aware of the properties of things.

          • sumsrent

            Like I told Julie weeks ago…
            Get out your Bible and read up on what an Idol is… learn something and quit trying to distort the truth.

          • Woody

            Yah, I guess you do not have ;pictures of your family in your house or you would be “worshiping” them. You say the dumbest things; and you never “seek and ye shall find…” for the last thing you want is to “know the truth and the truth would set you free.” If you had the guts you would pick up the Catholic Catechism and their beliefs are spelled out “in detail,” and one of them is “worshi belongs only to God.” No–you only want to continue lying so all can see it and it makes you look so silly and uneducated. But I guess you don’t care.

          • sumsrent

            You falsely claim I lied…
            and provided no evidence of such…
            Care to try again?

          • sumsrent

            Are you suggesting that people pick up the satanically influenced catholic fake church’s catechism?

            Why? So they can learn how to submit to satanic Islam?

            Answer the question Woody…
            Do you believe you worship the same fake god of satanic Islam which your popes claim you do?

            A simple yes or no would do it…

            If you’re a Christian this shouldn’t be difficult for you to answer?

          • shoebat

            Sumersent,

            Here I have to clean your mess again. You always write: “Do you believe you worship the same fake god of satanic Islam …”

            Its time to set you straight. To be frank, I am getting tired of all you graffiti being posted all over my blog stating that the “Popes worship the same satanic God as Islam”. You provide no references without any context and I do not have time to be baby sitting you. You always post uneducated nonsense without proper context. It is true that Vatican entertained Muslims by complementing Islam, but what is so rarely circulated (by you and others) in the West is that it was the Christian Arab Patriarchs and Bishops who influenced such recognition in Vatican’s Nostra Aetate which included statements that “the Muslims’ have great respect for Mary, and Jesus,” that, “Islam has much in common with Christianity and Catholicism,” and that Muslims “worship One God.” Explaining how all this happened, came from the top when former Pope Benedict XVI in 2013 revealed confessing that such unprecedented recognition of Islam stemmed from “bishops of the Arab countries” who objected the recognition by Vatican of the Holocaust. Vatican wanted to mend relationships with Israel. Is that a sin?

            But what you seem to ignore (I addressed this) is that when discussions began regarding Catholic-Jewish relations, Benedict revealed:

            “ … to deepen and renew Christian awareness of this [The Holocaust] … the Arab countries—the bishops of the Arab countries—were unhappy about this: they feared somewhat a glorification of the State of Israel, which naturally they did not want. They said: fine, a truly theological statement about the Jewish people is good, it is necessary, but if you speak about that, speak of Islam too; only then will there be a balance …” *Pope Benedict on Nostra aetate, Tuesday, 19 March 2013.*

            Benedict then CONFESSES the grave sin:

            “In the process of active reception, a weakness of this otherwise extraordinary text has gradually emerged: it speaks of religion solely in a positive way and it disregards the sick and distorted forms of religion which, from the historical and theological viewpoints, are of far-reaching importance; for this reason the Christian faith, from the outset, adopted a critical stance towards religion, both internally and externally.” *Ibid*

            He called Islam “sick and distorted religion”. Why did you fail to mention this?

            So you can see clearly that while the error crept in, it didn’t go without confessing and exposing it. That as well as Nostra Aetate is not a major document as if it etched Catholic belief.

            Don’t forget that such influences has been going on for years regarding such issues influencing the Catholic Church coming from Evangelicals who are corrupt. For decades they tried influencing the Catholic Church. I will not get into depth on this here. Such Evangelicals do not represent the spirit of the Evangelical Church as a whole. So I do not go around and say that the Evangelical Church is ALL corrupt just as a result. Corruption is in all denominations as you already know that we are in the midst of a falling away. So please refrain from your graffiti.

          • sumsrent

            Walid…
            “fail to mention this”?
            I must confess I hadn’t seen this before… or… if I have… I disregarded it because it is wavering…
            In other words… If I pick this apart… will it upset you more than what you are?

          • shoebat

            albeit, I had an email from an Evangelical just the other day leaving to Orthodox Christianity. He now attends an Orthodox Church. He said that he has been monitoring all the harsh language used by Evangelicals against Catholics and he sees these no different from Muslims. We are losing folks to the other side no thanks to harsh language like this. So may I kindly suggest you moderate your tone a little?

        • Woody

          If this guy was raised Catholic it is with a small “c.” He knows nothing about Catholicism. Tell it to Jesus at your judgement.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      First of all, you need a better translation of St Luke’s Greek than the one you are citing. The opening conjunction is better taken to mean, “Yes, indeed!” KJV had “Yea (yes), rather,” but the “rather” is not a contrast. — It’s just misleading to modern ears. It builds UPON the previous statement; it does Not negate it. “Yes, therefore!” Maryam (the unique name of Jesus’ Mother in the NT) means “Exalted Lady.” [ It does not derive from “mara” (Hebrew for ‘bitter’), as in the Book of Ruth.] In Aramaic, “Mar” is a title of respect to this day.
      Maryam is indeed “Maka’ria” – having a Blessedness that none can take away. She certainly “heard the Word of God, and kept it!” Do you think there is another person who “heard the Word of God” and “kept it” better than Jesus’ own Mother? If so, you haven’t been reading the Gospel very closely. How many times does St Luke tell us “she kept all these things in her heart”? She dwelt on these wondrous acts of God in her own life, pondering them in her heart. Did not God do well in choosing her out of all the human race? She is the very finest model anyone could find for living a life of pure devotion to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. All who would be Jesus’ “Beloved Disciples” will embrace her as their Mother, and “care for her.”
      Another person raised a spurious objection. The proper title of the Mother of a King is “Queen Mother.” IS Jesus YOUR King? If so, you will have NO trouble acknowledging that Maryam is “the Queen Mother of Jesus.” HIM we proclaim the King of Heaven. She is not the false deity of the Old Testament, and to slander her is no Christian’s business. When anti-Semitism surged in 19th C. France, a Frenchman replied, “Of all the blows our Lord received in His Passion, anti-Semitism is the worst, for He receives it on the face of His Mother!”
      It is easy to accept that Maryam is the Mother of the King. You can just take it that far, until you are comfortable honoring her, as the V Commandment requires. She gave birth to the flesh (the Body) of Christ. In the extended sense, the Body of Christ is the Church. She cares for “the Beloved Disciple” (hopefully that is you!), who together, at the foot of the Cross, represent all the Christians that ever shall be.
      An English Evangelical theologian says, “What Catholics say about the Mother of Christ our God protects what Evangelicals say about her Son.” (John deSatge.) So let’s stop squabbling!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Awesome. I had earlier responded to him, or someone with same quote, with similar explanation that Mary was the person he was referring to who hears the word of God and keeps it, as opposed to just her body parts being blessed. Thanks for you in depth explanation!

        • Read my response you should enjoy it

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why don’t you give the rest of the quote ” do not be called “rabbi” (which means “teacher”, hope you never called anyone teacher) “Do not be called master…” 1 Cor 4:15 ” for I became YOUR FATHER IN CHRIST JESUS”. Paul also talks about “FATHER’ Abraham! Come on, albeit, look at the context! Even Jesus used the names he forbid! Matt 10:24″ No disciple is above his TEACHER, no slave above his MASTER” What say ye now? I did enjoy what you said!! You made yourself appear ignorant.

          • These verses in which you refer are always in the 2nd person meaning an indirect reference…Yes God did say to Abraham that he would be the Father of many nations however this is only through his seed and not a spiritual Father who provides guidance directly over others…Your missing the point as usual to defend your habits through the Catholic traditions of men dogma …Jesus would frown upon the congregation addressing the priest as father and you know as well as I that there are some who follow what the priests say whether right or wrong as if its the gospel truth even though it may not be!!! Like Mary worship for instance along with many other false teachings…Boy will they ever be in for a rude awakening come judgement day

          • Julie LaBrecque

            ALBEIT- Who was your English teacher? How can the use of father in “I became YOUR FATHER IN CHRIST JESUS”, be talking 2nd person. PAUL IS SPEAKING ABOUT HIMSELF, PAUL. And in the connotation used, he is referring to himself AS SPIRITUAL FATHER. Do you have a birth certificate? Here in America, our birth certificate forms have an entry for FATHER and an entry for MOTHER. You better shred your birth certificate if you have one!

          • Well if you think you are sooooo right then what kind of example was Christ referring too and if you don’t specifically know then be careful because what the Catholic Church is doing sounds like pure heresy to me…There is a big difference whose words that are God breathed and written in the bible by someone as being referred to Father in comparison to someone whose words are not…what I am saying is we all look to scripture from whomever it is written by as the gospel truth because in essence it was writtten through a prophet by the Father in heaven so indirectly they could consider themselves a father…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            oh, now it’s OK to consider yourself a father, a long as it’s done “indirectly” You are choking on a gnat while swallowing a camel.
            Let’s do a little English lesson The person speaking is “1st Person”, the person(S) being spoken to is “2nd” person. Paul, therefore, is the 1st person, and he is referring to himself, the 1st person, as Father. He later tells the Corinthians that he is sending them Timothy, “my beloved and faithful son IN THE LORD”.

          • I think you got your directlies and indirecties mixed up…I can only imagine your poor husband never having a last word with you unless its “Yes Dear.” I could never tolerate all the sleepless nights that you must make him endure just so you can win an argument…He must be a total basket case….You keep skirting the real issue at hand which is the flagrant hypocriscy in the Catholic church and the title that they have which is Father…You never want to address the real meat of the problem in the Catholic church and instead resort to taking once in a blue moon cheap shots at my not so perfect english Jeeeeesh
            Shame on you Shame shame…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Albeit- first of all YOU made the claim of being the English scholar by your assertion that Paul was speaking in the 2nd person, then you accuse me of taking cheap shots at it.
            Second of all, you claim that I keep “skirting the issue” of “flagrant hypocrisy” and the use of title “Father”. This entire exchange has been addressing the “Father issue”

          • shoebat

            albeit, how do you know how Julie treats her husband? And what business is it ours to even state such gossip? How do you know her husband is a “basket case”? Let us stay away from gossip.

          • Woody

            This from a guy who doesn’t know the difference between St Francis and St. Anthony?
            The faux is the real shame; Julie is well-read and I wish I had her knowledge

          • Julie

            You are displaying your discernment, your sense of judgement directed at Catholics and at this highly educated lady, Julie.

            Did you know that English used in great literature from the 1800’s that are most popular have been rewritten 2000 times so that we can understand the true intent today???

            Because of this sentiment, it is hard to understand what they are trying to tell you because you don’t have the recepticle to understand.

          • Woody

            Again, while Scripture is inerrant-your “interpretations” are not…and that is why there are over 32,750+ churches all exclaiming “I know what Jesus means.” Right. But after 4 months only one person has taken my challenge in my quiz and to his credit got it right:

            No one has been able to answer my quiz except one person
            who got it right even though it has been posted on this site for 1 ½ Months?

            You seem smart—NAME THAT FOUNDER??

            Moses – Judaism

            Catholic Church – Founder (Members; Largest Christians
            1.2 Billion) – ??????????

            How logical are you that the World’s largest Religion according to you- it’s Founder has been lost??? Right (Funny no one has lost the rest–they got all the rest correct??)

            Jacobus Arminius, Dutch theologian, founder of school of thought known as Arminianism

            Heinrich Bullinger, successor of Zwingli, leading reformed theologian

            John Calvin, French theologian, reformer and resident of Geneva, Switzerland, he founded the school of theology known as Calvinism

            Balthasar Hubmaier, influential Anabaptist theologian, author of numerous works during his five years of ministry, tortured at Zwingli’s behest, and executed in Vienna

            John Knox, Scottish Calvinist and leader of the Scottish Reformation

            Martin Luther, church reformer and founder of Protestantism whose theological works guided those now known as Lutherans

            Philipp Melanchthon, early Lutheran leader

            Menno Simons, Anabaptist leader who, through his writings,
            articulated and thereby formalized Mennonitism

            John Smyth, early Baptist leader

            Huldrych Zwingli, founder of Swiss Reformed tradition

          • Woody

            Oh, faux boy is back misinterpreting as usual; I think you can handle him, sweetie.

      • 1Prophet

        That is the problem with the Catholic HEARSAY! You are always trying to make God’s Word a lie & your word exalted over His Word. That is making yourself a god & is APOSTASY!

        • Julie LaBrecque

          If you ever decide to open your eyes to the Bible, you’ll discover how much honor is given to Mary by God himself, & then you will feel ashamed. The Mothers of the Davidic Kings (after David) were given the TITLE AND OFFICE of the Queen Mother, The Great Lady, The Gebirah (sp?). After Solomon has been crowned, his mother Bathsheba enters the ROYAL COURT, and Solomon arose from his THRONE and had seat brought in for her at his right hand. The queen mother interceded for the subjects of the kingdom.

          • michelletherese

            And that tradition was carried on for ages and ages afterwards, with even the Queen having the duty to fall on her knees before the King and intercede for the subjects.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Absolutely.

          • Woody

            Yah, on the lighter side, one of my girl friends told me on an elevator once that she was a “Leo” and since she learned I was a “Pieces (sp?)” she said “when I say bark, buster you get down on your knees and and bark…” So I did get on my kness and
            “Ruff! Ruff! Rufffff!” But it backfired the people all got scared and got off the elevator. She was a cute little blonde.

          • Billkammerer

            And I would not want to be standing near somebody while they face Jesus and insult His Mother by saying that she is nobody special…

          • shoebat

            I would not want to be standing in from of anyone to say that their mother is not special 😉 how about Jesus.

          • Woody

            Boy how true both of these posts are–if anyone said one word about anyone’s mom where I grew up he or she would end up in a sausage grinder–how about Danny Greene for one? That may be the only thing I have going for me at my judgement—“I loved your Ma.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Me either! Sad, they don’t realize they are slapping Jesus’ mother in the face.

      • michelletherese

        I’ve noticed this strange trend of using some bible verses to negate others. Why would the bible want to do that to itself?

      • “She certainly “heard the Word of God, and kept it!”
        Sir… I am sure she did and Christ wants us to hear the Word of God and keep it too and the Catholic faith does not…
        For starters you need to “CAN YOUR TITLE” because if Jesus does not regard you as a father than neither do I
        Matthew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
        “If so, you haven’t been reading the Gospel very closely”
        I have been reading it a lot closer than you you “Sunday worshiper” among a host of other fallacies…
        “All who would be Jesus’ “Beloved Disciples” will embrace her as their Mother, and “care for her.””
        Care for her??? Will embrace her as their Mother??? “You truly are deceived.” I do not read anything about caring for Mary being a requirement of discipleship…Liar

        Luke 14:25-33 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

        “If so, you will have NO trouble acknowledging that Maryam is “the Queen Mother of Jesus”
        This comes straight out of the Babylonian Goddess worship of Mother Goddess and child worship…Look up Semeramis and Tammuz another one of your man made fallacies!!!

        “Of all the blows our Lord received in His Passion, anti-Semitism is the worst, for He receives it on the face of His Mother”
        Another lie…Christ died for our sins his earthly child bearing vessel Mary does not have anything to do with anti-Semitism…This is pure crazy talk…
        “are comfortable honoring her, as the V Commandment requires”
        Honor my parents I do …Mary is not my mother… This is pure crazy talk…
        “She gave birth to the flesh”
        Exactly that is why we should not worship her John 4: 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
        You need to get a life sir and start by knowing God’s Truth

        • Gina101

          I guess you literally never called your own dad father.

          Paul referred to other of his converts in this way: “To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior” (Titus 1:4); “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment” (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.

          Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

          • You are saying one thing but the verses you show me describe another …None of these verses say that he should be addressed as Father none or have that title before his name …You have not made your point and another thing who is Philem. 10

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Albeit – check my reply to you, I blew your theory out of the water.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            albeit-CAN IT, already. I’ve gone down this same road with you before, don’t be coy.

          • Go ahead call him FATHER until your face turns blue…Your day of judgment is coming sooner than you think and don’t say you haven’t been warned!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks!

          • Woody

            Oh, good here is a short one for a response; I’ve been thinking are you sure of Putin that he may wear a 32B; I was pretty good at JCP until my lady supervisors let me go when i asked to be a bra fitter; they said, well how would you know, so i told them by the judgement of my glove size. Glove size? Yah, it’s a 36C.

          • Woody

            Have you noticed the “uncertainty” and ill manners in albeit’s posts, always like the bully in the schoolyard with these !!! which is the same as “shouting” on the internet–instead of debating back and forth calmly and easily (sounds like an inferiority complex to me, and he is always begging for someone to ‘believe him?” Why?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Inferiority complex

          • Woody

            Isn’t it strange at best that whenever I ask a Protestant if they believe in the Gospel, they answer with a RESOUNDING “Yes, of course.

            But if you ask them if they say the Rosary–they say why I would never say that. Yet this is where a prejudice is really shown and makes their statements make no sense for the Rosary IS the Gospel. And a beautiful prayer it is …meditating on Jesus life…so peaceful …:,tearful at times…

            THE ROSARY

            JOYFUL MYSTERIES (MEDITATIONS)

            o THE ANNUNCIATION OF THE ARCHANGEL GABRIEL TO MARY
            o THE VISITATION OF MARY TO ELIZABETH
            o THE BIRTH OF JESUS
            o THE PRESENTATION OF JESUS IN THE TEMPLE

            THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES

            o THE BAPTISM OF JESUS IN THE JORDAN
            o SELF MANIFESTATION AT THE WEDDING IN CANA
            o THE PROCLAMATION OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD
            o THE TRANSFIGURATION OF JESUS
            o THE INSTITUTION OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST

            THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES (MY FAVORITE AND THOSE OF THE SAINTS)

            o THE AGONY OF JESUS IN THE GARDEN
            o THE SCOURGING AT THE PILLAR
            o JESUS IS CROWNED WITH THORNS
            o JESUS CARRIES HIS CROSS
            o THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS

            THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES

            o THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS
            o THE ASCENSION OF JESUS
            o THE DESCENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AT PENTECOST (BIRTHDAY OF THE CHURCH)
            o THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY INTO HEAVEN
            o THE CORONATION OF MARY QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They just don’t know what it is, that’s all. It’s easier to “go with the flow” than to find out what something is really about. Not enough salmon out there willing to swim upstream!

          • Woody

            Believe me; we would rather be in our position than yours; telling Jesus at our Judgement – “we loved you Mother beyond belief just as you did. God luck on getting into Heaven.

          • Woody

            “You have eyes yet you do not see; ears yet you do not hear.”
            Gee, add another thing he does not know just like St. Dominic, Francis…et al
            Her post is right one…or as Harnack says, …domnt argue with the prejudiced ones for they are BLIND. Thank you, Adolph

          • Woody

            You see it too; how dumb is this…they take this literally but John VI not literally.

        • essdee

          hater.

          • Then be prepared to call God a hater to because he wrote the verses…

        • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

          Who said anything bout “worshipping” Maryam? Not I. You falsely accuse. The problem is, you seem to have no respect for her at all, not even for the fact that Her Son Is GOD. The Holy Trinity chose her for this unique (and eternally significant) role. She was no mere “vessel”! That is a heresy, denounced in Jerusalem from early time. She freely gave her full Consent when Gabriel spoke. She *co-operated* with the Will of God, as we are all meant to do. “Be it unto me according to thy Word.” THEREFORE She IS “Blessed” to ALL generations. Take a breath. Call her “Ever-Blessed!” — It WON’T hurt, and it will actually draw you closer to God’s own heart. This “simple lady” of Israel overturned mighty thrones by singing her Magnificat. What faith! What love of God! Take it to your heart. Take Her to your heart. Rejoice in her triumph of faith. It will bring you joy.

          Ha-satan knew that the Truth would come, so he fabricated many decoys, like your Babylonians, like the Hindus, et al. But the decoys are a distraction, not the truth. Look past the decoys, and see what GOD has given to us! Once a mother, always the Mother. (Your mother bore you; she has never ceased to be your mother, — no matter how many millennia have passed since then!) Ha-satan could never “sell” anything if it had not a speck of truth in it; but he twists it, of course. St Paul tells us that God has not left Himself without a witness — in any culture. Look past the twists. What is ha-satan trying to HIDE?
          How is he trying to deceive You?
          If you love JESUS, you will love also those whom HE loves. He loves His Mother; that cannot be denied. (I hope you love your own!) So must you, if you will worship Him, and follow Him, in Spirit and in Truth. Loving her in no way detracts from love of HIM. If you love your wife, does it make it impossible to love her children? NO! The more we love, the more we CAN love, in truth.
          You may not have noticed, but Jesus takes His Whole Humanity exclusively from His Mother, who was (and is) JEWISH. Anti-Semitism has DIRECTLY to do with Her! — and with HIM!

          • shoebat

            Fr. Christopher, the problem I have with you is that I could not find a single line you wrote that is contrary to Scripture.

            You were supposed to be a legalist Pharisee and a teacher of manmade tradition. Isn’t that what you Catholics are good at? (I am being sarcastic).

            The only problem I found was that had you started with “Pastor Christopher” instead of “Fr. Christopher”. Once they see “Fr.” they will write you off, regardless that the truth was spoken. In other words, we are plagued with the sin of PREJUDICE. Indeed, once we see FROM SCRIPTURE what GOD said about Mary, we can see that she is to be called blessed throughout ALL generations. When I was Muslim, we used to say Jesus son of Mary. It is the heretics who want to title Mary as simply the mother of Jesus, no, she had GOD in her WOMB. This is an amazing story. She was chosen to be the MOTHER OF GOD. PERIOD. AMEN.

          • Woody

            Yes, and I don’t know if it is true or not but I heard Muslims have a high respect for Mary–I also hear she is in the Koran but not sure of this/

          • Scattered Pearls

            Hey Woody, just reading this fascinating discussion. I’m Muslim myself, but am very curious about “fundamentalist” vs “traditional” Christianity. We have similar struggles in Islamic theology.

            Muslims have a very high respect for Maryam (upon her be peace) btw. A chapter of the Quran is named after her. Heres a portion:

            (Remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Al-Masih, `Isa, the son of Maryam, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and he will be one of those who are near to Allah. He will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.”
            She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.” He said: “So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: `Be! ـ and it is.”

            Heres another from another chapter:

            “And [mention] when the angels said, “O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.” (3:42)

            Thus she is the best woman to have ever existed. She is always referred to as a virgin, and is not said to have lost this status.

            Thought you might find this interesting, Hope it answers your question. God bless.

          • Woody

            Yes, and that is beautiful and I am sure she is pleased with such prose. To your question I only know of traditional Christianity since Jesus founded His Church while on earth; so you may get lost here on the site–most never mention that since Jesus is God and He promised to be “with His Church until the “End of Days”–he always keeps His Word. In a nutshell, traditional ways are pointed out very well by Walid’s research–how can one deny history. Basically we believe in the Old Testament, and the New Testament; however the NT came in late at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. We still have the 10 Commandments as found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus came He brought a new Covenant, while giving Peter the Keys to His Kingdom (Jesus, is Jewish and knows that uner “Jewish law” this is the granting of Authority which he also expounded on when He further said. “Whatsoever you bind on earth I shall bind in Heaven; whatsoever you loosed upon earth I will loose in Heaven.” Again, under Jewish law, this means He gave his Church the power to change religious laws. As an example, at the Church’s First Council in Jerusalem, St. Peter, St. Paul and the other Apostles (there were 13 in all) came to together and made it no longer needed for “circumcision” to be mandated since they wanted to attract Gentile into the Church in accord with Jesus desires. They also, (not at this Council) changed the day the Sabbath was to be on–from Saturday to Sunday so as to honor the day Jesus rose from the dead. Then we still have the 7 Sacraments Jesus gave us; I really love Penance (because He knew we are all sinners so he established this by bestowing the ability for his new Bishops and presbyters the power to forgive sins — “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them’ who sins you shall retain they are retained.” Think about this–the only way to make a decision like this “affirm or deny” is to “hear” what sins the person has committed. Marriage is a Sacrament – (Matrimony) the love between one man and one woman.
            The “Last Rites” (the Anointing of the sick) from a priest who blesses a dying person with Holy oils and chrism.– sometimes this heals and person and they go not die–a lady I take to church each week startled my wife and I telling us she had the Last Rites. in her case it healed her and she looks better than ever. Then there is my favorite but of course I love them all–Jesus left us the greatest miracle in the history of the world–the Eucharist-His very own Body and Blood to eat and drink under the appearances of Bread and Wine; the priest who stands “in persona Christi” at the point in the Mass (the Catholic Church Service) where a change is made by God to the bread and wine by Jesus, and we receive Him in that form. Lastly, we have Baptism, the pouring of water over the forehead while saying “I Baptize thee in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”And finally Confirmation at about age 7 when we become “Soldiers for Christ.” All of the Sacraments need to have the Form (Words) and (Matter). Not all are required to be done by a priest (anyone can Baptize another)

            And as you mention the traditional Church is Apostolic going back directly to Jesus. Now there are other Apostolic Churches also because Peter the first Bishop of Rome directed the Apostles to “go forth and each all nations in my Name…:” and many were in Arab countries–you many know them as Byzantine, Orthodox, Uniatse, and several others. These Churches generally can still “consecrate the Eucharist.” Hear confessions (sins, etc.) Early on we and others created “creeds” prayers to meld us in union with one another one called the ‘Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed, both confessions of Faith and we still say them today. And then there is the “respect” we show God’s (Jesus’s) mom; like the verses you cited; She was approached by the Angel Gabriel who addressed her “Hail Mary,” which has developed into Her favorite prayer; Her “Fiat” as it is called is Her acceptance to have Jesus (since we all have a free will she could have said–No!) but she didn’t and that is why one of her many titles is “the New Eve,” since She corrected the evil of sin which Eve had wrought. Her main purpose is to bring people to Her Son, and it always has been; Tradition has it that Our Lady gave him the Rosary:

            To overcome the Albigensian heresy. Dominic stressed the importance of education…It was during Dominic’s fight against this heresy when tradition tells how this saint received the rosary from the Virgin Mary in a vision. According to tradition, the Virgin Mary told him to “Pray my Psalter and teach it to your people. That prayer will never fail”. Dominic was told that if he did as instructed, the heresy would be dispelled from France. Eventually after widespread teachings on the rosary and the meditations of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, the heresy was defeated and the Church was strengthened.

            Sometimes you might ask one if they believe in “the Gospel” Jesus’ Teachings..but you could ask the same people if they believe in the Rosary, and they might say “No.” This is impossible and only means they do not know what the Rosary is–“it IS the Gospel, has beads which keep track of a series of prayers but most important each “bead” is an event in Jesus’ life; thus “it is the Gospel.” We meditate on His Life while we are praying and this brings us closer to Him -sometimes I cry like when i think of His Crucifixion.

            In summary it is: 10 Commandments
            7 Sacraments
            A series of “devotions” – prayers like the Rosary, and an expectation that He is Our Savior and will bring us to what is called the “Beatific Vision” (seeing and living with God in pure happiness for all eternity…

            Walid has just finished an interesting research story on the “First Christians of Jesus,” time and it showed His Church is not much different today–sometimes we call if the “Smells and Bells,” because like the 1st Christians – we still burn incense, we still pray for and honor our dead, we still have relics (the first Christians loved relics) because until the 4th Century many of us were martyred and that is way our Church was “built on the blood of Martyrs.’ And we have statues to remind us of those we love..no different than when a woman carries a picture of her son or daughter in her purse.

            Now, if I am not mistaken your origin is also from Adam under Ismael – is that correct?

            God Bless, (Boy, I am glad you asked for the short answer)

          • Woody

            fr. Just an update. You’re not going to change this guy’s mind; he is the same person that told Julie and I that he was a Catholic for 50 years, then came back later and did not know who St Francis and St Anthony were, saying he forgot because he was a little boy when he last heard this so it looks like he may be over 100 years old.

        • Billkammerer

          Hmmm… I’m guessing that you hate your father, your mother, your wife, your children, your brothers, your sisters and your life. Interesting…

          • Taking my words and twisting them to suit your own beliefs…Fine…Believe your own lies and will let God decide your fate on the Day of Judgment

          • Billkammerer

            Hi again, albeit. Hope you
            re still having a good day. 🙂

            I’m not twisting your words, those are the verses you quoted from the Bible. Either you believe what you say you believe and take all of the verses in the Bible literally, or you don’t.

            Again, I ask, from where do you get your authority to interpret the Bible?

          • I use the bible verses to debunk man made rules and beliefs …If you have issues with that then take it up with God He wrote them for all of scripture is God breathed

          • Billkammerer

            So you are saying that anybody can interpret the Bible on their own?

          • NO one can interpret the bible on their own..But ithe Catholic church has and most of their followers have …The bible intreprets itself!!! It takes insight and perception to interpret the bible and look at what the Catholic church has done just for starters…They said that Jesus lived 33.5 years I say he lived 14,700 (12) hour days so who you gonna believe the Catholic church or me!!!

          • Billkammerer

            Hi albeit,

            I’m curious to know how you came up with that number? A day is about 23 hrs 56 mins. (24 hrs rounded up). 33.5 years is about 12,227.5 days.

            14,700 (12 hr days) comes out to 7,350 full days.
            7,350/365 (365.25, but I’m rounding down) = just a tad over 20 years.

            Let’s say for the sake of argument you’re right, and Jesus was 20 years old when he died…

            Where did you get that number? It has to be your interpretation of something because I don’t see that in the Bible. Ergo, you interpret the Bible.

            I just want to know where you received the authority to do so.

            I will be happy to believe you if you wiil prove to me that you have have been given the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture.

            God Bless…

          • Oh good grief!!! Who is the Lamb of God??? Who is the Holy One of Israel??? Who died on the cross 1,470,000 days after the creation of Adam??? Who was born on the 14th day of the 7th month in the Hebrew calendar the day before Tabernacles??? Who Who Who???
            Look up the age of Jacob!!!Look up the time beween conception and birth of a Lamb There’s your answer and besides were talking days…hello your counting nights and days

          • Billkammerer

            Hi again, albeit,

            Again I ask, from where do you get your authority to interpret the Bible? And where in the Bible does it say that the Bible interprets itself? Who is guiding you in your understanding of Sacred Scripture? Are you the only one on Earth who has it right?

          • Boy I see the Catholic church has got there dogma over you hook line and sinker!!! Remember the Pharisees and Saducees??? Did Jesus condemn them or praise them??? Did John the baptist welcome them or curse them?? What was it about them that Christ condemned ??? It was there man made rules and doctrines elevated above the “Word of God” You keep trying to entrap me with your foolish remarks…Did Jesus attend a Catholic seminary??? I know the bible quite well so don’t bother testing me!!! Read 2 Peter 1:20

          • Billkammerer

            Howdy albeit,

            It’s a simple question. Where do you get the authority to interpret scripture?

            I respectfully submit that if you can’t answer that question, then you don’t know the Bible as well as you think you do.

            There is no place in the Bible that says that scripture is the complete word of God. In fact, just the opposite is true.

            JN 21: 25, “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

            2 Thess 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you were taught, either by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter of ours.”

            2 TIM 2:2 “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.”

            1 Cor 11:2 “I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.”

            1 Thess 2:9 “You recall, brothers, our toil and drudgery. Working night and day in order not to burden any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.”

            1 Thess 2:13 “And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that,in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.”

            Acts 2:42 “They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.”

            2 Peter 3:16 “speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

            2 JN 1:12 “Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to speak face to face so that our joy may be complete.”

            3 JN 1:13-14 “I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon, when we can talk face to face.”

            2 Peter 1:20-21 “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.”

            Acts 8: 30-31 “Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading? He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me? So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.”

            Heb 5:12 “Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food.”

            Oral Tradition is how the Gospel was proclaimed for the during the early years of the Church. The first letters weren’t written for years after Christ ascended into Heaven.

            Then there’s 1 Tim 3:15 “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

            Happy Easter and God Bless…

          • It’s a simple question. Where do you get the authority to interpret scripture?
            What gives you the right to prevent me from learning from scripture??? You sir are a leading example of how the forced submission of the church killed millions of unwilling participants back eons ago who knew the truth and were unwilling to submit!!!This mindset originated with the founding of the Cathiolic church to exert its authority over the masses with there man made rules and doctrines and is typical of how the Phariesees and Saducees did the same during the time of Jesus…I am just simply connecting the dots through parallel verse comparison by insight and perception of God’s word…Its no wonder Catholics don’t take it upon themselves to read the bible …The Church won’t let them!!! The bible has its own authority…Believe what is written and have the love of the truth in your heart and you will be saved

            There is no place in the Bible that says that scripture is the complete word of God. In fact, just the opposite is true.
            So Christ forgot to tell everyone to celebrate the pagan feast day of the fertility goddess Ishtar??? Today officially called Easter by the One true Catholic Chirch??? I see how you are!!!

          • Billkammerer

            Ahhh.. I see you attended Jack Chick Seminary. 🙂

          • Billkammerer

            Hmmm… Where to begin?

            “The Bible has it’s own authority.”

            Yes, it does – and that authority is the Catholic Church.

            Actually, the Bible came from the Catholic Church. The Bible is 100% a Catholic document. You would not have the Bible without the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church existed before the Bible (New Testament). The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament. The Catholic Church canonized the Bible, Old and New Testaments, and the canon remains the same today in the Catholic Church. And, really, it was the same for pretty much everybody for 1100 years until Martin Luther changed it – his changes were, and are, MAN MADE traditions, used only by Protestants.

            To suggest that Catholics are not allowed to read the Bible is a complete and utter falsehood. What would make you think that to be the case?

            But I think you were meaning to say that the Bible “IS its own authority”. Please tell me, where is that in the Bible? I’m pretty sure it’s not there, and that would make that belief a MAN MADE tradition, held only by Protestants.

            By the way, the founding of the Catholic Church happened when Jesus founded it.

            God Bless You.

          • The Jews wrote all of the books of the bible…Now I have other tasks to take care of today so get out of my life and stop bothering me with your lies!!!

          • Billkammerer

            One more before I get out of your life..

            It is sad that you, at least as evidenced by your demeanor, lack the love and joy of the Christian heart. I have been praying for you, and will continue to do so.

            God Bless You…

          • Woody

            Bill, you exposed him very well and he broke; he does have a tendency to not only speak with a forked tongue but to spread the falsehoods also.

            You are pretty good and saturated with the Truth like my little chicklet on this site; she is SO knowledgeable and exposed him also, many times – I can see it in his !!!!
            God Bless

          • Woody

            Wonderful but notice psychologically he is so unsure that he has to !!!! (according t Shrinks) someone who does this is just an “English Bully” hoping to foist their errors upon another. He needs help if he thinks he can “connect the dots.” See another lie, one after another…many Catholics have several Bible – I have 3 and hear several readings of Scripture each morning when I am lucky to receive the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of My Lord God and Savior as He commanded…oh, he’s back on the nonsense of the Church killing millions which Walid called him on and he could not produce any reputable source other than his own wishes.

          • Billkammerer

            Good morning, albeit,

            I actually agree with you on one point, here: Jesus didn’t attend a Catholic seminary.

            Jesus WAS the ORIGINAL Catholic seminary, and the Apostles were the ORIGINAL Catholic seminarians.

            God Bless You.

          • More Catholic BS nonsense I see …Jesus came to fulfill the Law or Torah not abolish it…The first 5 books of the bible….Hmmm funny no Easter, No Christmas, No praying to Mary, No celebration of the Eucharist, No all saints day, No day of rest on Sunday etc. etc…What gives??? I guess all of the bibles printed must have been corrupted by the boogie man

          • Woody

            There were no Bibles then; only the OT and Jesus used the Septuagint which if you get time–count the books in it and if you are such a good Math major you will come up with 72, not the 66 you quote from.

          • Woody

            Beautiful…”Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.” Thank you, Jesus (I prayed for my father today–oh, I’m sorry we are to call no man father)

          • Woody

            I’m beginning to think Julie taught in a Catholic Seminary; she is so SOURCE (thanks, Walid!)

          • Woody

            If you know the Bible quite well it is frightening since you make many errors all by yourself. So I know you know the Phar and Sadds; but that makes you even older than you told us. Man made rules – God would love to hear that when He gave us the 10 Commandments, among other things.

          • woody …Stop being such an annoying troll …Take your religious BS and shove it where the sun don’t shine!!!
            Unlike you, some of us have a life!!!

          • Woody

            “The Devil IS the Father of all lies.”

            Start telling the Truth and I will stop; as a tip–go back and get your GED for you are in way over your head here; stop being an Email bully !!!! with your nonsense; these are real Christians–not faux Christians, and they see through a person who makes errors constantly’ yet, believes he can “self-interpret” Scripture accurately – from Scripture he has which alone is inaccurate- having only 66 books of the 72 book Bible Jesus used- the Septuagint, one who follows Martin Luther, a defrocked Catholic priest—and one who cannot even cite where Martin Luther’s nonsense of Sola Scriptura (and i might add-Sola Fide) appears in the Bible–a short trip through the father of all Logic–Aristotle would lead you to Truth; if you were following Jesus instead of Luther,you would want to follow my Master’s Words: “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.”

            For one–the Septuagint is extant so if you truly wanted “truth” you do as Jesus said…”seek and you shall find,”–you would pick it up and you–being a “math major” even getting Jesus’ age wrong, pick it up and count the books–72 and this is the OT Jesus quoted from (just another of the many lies you post) but No – you would rather take the easy route and stay “in error” like Simon Magus did before the first Bishop of Rome put the boots to him in short order.

            You are no match for Julie and Walid, and Julie was right in that little Marty tried to eliminate from his bible: Hebrew, James, Jude and Revelation; and you still do the same thing today–what disagrees with your logical errors you look the other way; Other most obvious errors you post egregiously:

            — Walid’s fine studies show he is interested int Truth, not prejudice: “Those damned Catholics,” and his history of the early Church which does show that, “idols” [according to the Prots’ definition of “an idol” is wrong–the First Christians, then known as “the People of the Way” before St. Ignatius of Antioch (3rd Bishop of Antioch and appointed by the 1st Bishop of Antioch–Peter, before he went to Rome) renamed them a moniker, “Catholic,” [Source: 107 AD Iggy’s letter on his way to be martyred in Rome, joyfully i might add) Greek for “universal” and which has stuck until this very day.]-“still extant.”

            — God Himself directed that 2 angels (according to Prots–idols) be placed on the Ark of the Covenant, AND also directed that a Serpent be made and said for the people to be “healed” and this means once again, “that your interpretations of Scripture are way “faulty” which means you are calling God an “idol worshiper which is patently ridiculous.

            – “Catholics don’t read the Bible” [we wrote it so why would we not read it? (Julie needs to constantly quote it to put up with your nonsense)

            – “Jesus never addressed His Mother by name…” another non-sequitor – except for you, it is considered rude to address one’s mother by name from her offspring. I never addressed my mom, as “Margaret” and I have never heard a child do this?”

            – “I was a Catholic for 50 years”–you have never been to a Catholic Mass or, like Elizabeth Hahn, a truthful Protestant, note that Scripture (the real one) is read at every Catholic Mass, both the Gospel and the Readings.

            – “St Francis” is the Patron saint of “Lost Articles” – really way off and even a baby-Catholic would know this. His forte is animals; St Anthony is the correct answer so once again–“wrong so no cigar.”

            – Peter was never the First Bishop of Rome and never went there,” – you own Protetant Theolgian addresses this when he says “anyone who says this is both prejudiced and Blind.” pretty strong coming from a non-Catholic, but at least “Truthful…” non-sequitor

            Peter’s name – “The names of Peter, which include Simon and Cephas, are mentioned more times in the New Testa-ment than any other Apostle.

            “Of Peter the most is known. Peter is mentioned 195 times, the rest (ALL) of the other Apostles COMBINED are only mentioned 130 times. The one mentioned next in frequency to Peter is John, to whom there are 29 refer-ences.” And as Julie points out…St. Peter is mentioned always “First” except in one instance throughout the NT.”

            In the Catacombs – St Peter’s initials are inscribed over 300 times–go there and see for yourself,–“Didymus.”

            – “Your treatment of my Mom, Mary are completely out of touch with the first Christians…To Wit:

            “Theotokos is a Greek word that means “God-bearer” or “Mother of God”. It is a title assigned by the early Christian Church to Mary, the mother of Jesus, at the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. The theological significance at the time was to emphasize that Mary’s son, Jesus, was fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus’ two natures (divine and human) were united in a single person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning “Mother of Christ”. This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of “Christ’s humanity” and not His Divine nature.

            Nestorius’ view was anathematised by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Mary being mother of God the Son is therefore duly entitled Mother of God.

            Calling Mary the “Mother of God” was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed. The Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: “He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos.”

            — This puts you fully in the situation of Heresy’s realm, you need to hope Jesus looks the other way at your judgment, but that is not a sure bet..

            Thus, these are only a handful of your inaccuracies and lies; I don’t want to embarrass you…

            When you stop lying, i will stop “trolling” as you put it..for as Jesus says, “if you seek the Truth ye shall find it…” or as Bishop Sheen once said, “if they will not seek the Truth they will not find it.”

            Thank you Holy Spirit for these fine thoughts..
            Thank you Holy Spirit for these fine thoughts..,Thank you Holy Spirit for these fine thoughts.., three times in honor of your Trinity

            And thanks to the Fr., Julie and Walid, for continue to spreading the Truth of Jesus Christ and his message to the World

          • Funny thing Woody I don’t hear any of the others you’ve mentioned joining in on your parade of me making false claims..It is you not me that is truly decieved …so go ahead and pray to your idol gods called saints and go ahead and pray constantly your rosary and to the “Ever Virgin Mary with the Immaculate Heart”…Satan will be waiting for you with open arms

          • Woody

            You must have missed Walid’s article on which Church is just like the first Christians–it ain’t the Prots–all the Churches then and now had statues, icons, incense…etc. I receive Jesus Body and Blood each day of my life so satan ain’t about to come near me…or as St. Faustina said, “when he comes near me I just mention Jesus name and he disappears…back to hell. You ought to try it and maybe satan will quit bothering you.

          • Woody

            That’s because no one pays any attention to you.

          • Woody

            !!!!!!!!!!!! Truth uber alles – Luther

            St. Apelles

            St. Apelles & St. Lucius were both bishops in the early Christian church. Apelles was the first bishop of Smyrna, Turkey. Lucius was the bishop of Laodicea. Apelles’
            name can be found in St. Paul’s letter to the Romans. They were contemporaries of St. Clement and all three were martyred for the faith.

            Wow—go ye Catholics, (another of Our Bishops die for the Faith) (St Clement was the 3rd Pope after St. Peter and was the one St. Ignatius of

            Antioch directed his remarks when he renamed Jesus’ Church from “the People of the Way” to the Catholic Church.”

          • Woody

            Ahhhh, look who is afraid of the Truth: you should be on Obama’s staff–you would go far there. I already posted most the lies you say, and so have others who know you very well.
            God Bless,but I did put you in my Mass today…

          • Woody you wouldn’t know what truth is if it bit you where the sun don’t shine!!! Go ahead with your herd mentality and believe what many others believe…God does not follow the numbers…Look at how many died in the flood!!!

          • Woody

            Great post – too logical for this guy…SOS

          • Woody

            He is never right;Jesus was 33 when He died.

          • Woody

            We believe the Church Jesus founded no some one who makes mistakes in his posts yet thinks he can interpret Scripture correctly (this concept in itself is illogical) I’m glad you corrected Jesus on His life-perhaps he wasn’t a math major like you are?

          • Woody

            Talk about idiocracy — a guy who “interprets” ad infinitum and now says what he says is “meaningless” which I do agree with but quite different than the Church which St. Paul says to Timothy “…to listen to.” Because they do have the authority to interpret correctly “whatsoever you bind on earth I shall bind in Heaven;whatsoever you loose upon earth I will loose in Heaven..”
            Heavens, the math major is back, a guy who is not mentioned in his Sola Scriptura that he has been granted the ability to do math, and it shows…no one believes a liar–ask Barach Obama.
            Competing with Christ’s Church is a joke.

          • Woody

            We all have bibles; your quotes only prove that you can read, and not so well at that. Your name is not in any bible I know of not even the KJV (and that is a bad sign) You got it bill–they all say they can interpret the Bible on their and that at is way when one gets mad at another they go off and found “another” church–they found a new church every 5 days; or as Scott Hahn believes “fifty years from now there will be only one Church left, the Catholic Church the one Jesus started with.

          • Woody

            You need to learn Scripture, “Judge not lest ye be Judged.” I would rather be with Jesus Mom at Judgement than with your standing there alone.

        • Woody

          So phony; another false reading and inability to interpret Scripture…but this one is stupid; I don’t know one of my Protestant friends that does not call his dad, father.

          Falsejhood II:

          I have been reading it a lot closer than you you “Sunday worshiper” among a host of other fallacies…

          Again, all of my Protestant friends worship on Sunday; while we in fact worship every day having the privilege of receiving Our Lord’s Body and Blood which He addressed in John VI and when He did, his Protestant audience walked away to follow Him no more; only the First Bishop of Rome answered Him, “Lord to whom shall we go?” He alse – readdressed this at the Last Supper and did not change his truth.

          Care for her??? Will embrace her as their Mother??? “You truly are deceived.” I do not read anything about caring for Mary being a requirement of discipleship…Liar

          This is because you are “stuck on Sola Scriptura” which is not even in the Bible–SOURCE-show it to me. but Scripture does say in St Paul’s to Timothy I Timothy 3:15 that the “pillar and foundation of Truth (not Scripture) is “the Church.’ And as Scott Hahn asks “Why doesn’t that truth come into Protestant minds?”

          All you ever prove is that you can read; and your belief in your own statements shows in your overuse of !!!!! Only persons who unsure of themselves do this (it is usually referred to as being “an English Bully.”

          “If so, you will have NO trouble acknowledging that Maryam is “the Queen Mother of Jesus” This comes straight out of the Babylonian Goddess worship of Mother Goddess and child worship…Look up Semeramis and Tammuz another one of your man made fallacies!!!

          No we don’t, and we agree with your founders, Luther, Zwingli, Wesley, Calvin and Bullinger, which shows how far you have strayed from the truth of your original founders which is where your artificial bible jousting has taken you.

          Not one of your founders showed up when the NT was drafted in 325 AD?

          “Of all the blows our Lord received in His Passion, anti-Semitism is the worst, for He receives it on the face of His Mother” Another lie…Christ died for our sins his earthly child bearing vessel Mary does not have anything to do with anti-Semitism…

          Okay, brilliant one–how many blows did Jesus receive at His Passion? You wouldn’t know because Jesus does not confide in Apostates: He received 5,480 blows on His Body.

          The only one who sees anyone worshiping Mary is a dummy; and it is posted for all to see in a Catechism, unlike your ilk because you have no beliefs–you a multitude of un-beliefs which results in a mish match of churches all of which contradict each other and Christ Who said, His Church is ONE. Dashing another of Sola Scriptura’s errors is that your Sola’ing is wrong again by only listing 5 wounds of Jesus when, in reality He had 6 wounds, and as He has said “one is unrecorded by man.”
          The Catholic Church provides to God ALONE any worship…if you had any smarts you would look up “Dulia vs Hyprdulia”

          • Woody

            I can’t understand how any Protestant will show up for Jesus at his or her final judgement and expect Jesus to let him into His Kingdom after spending their lifetime bashing His mom; good luck with that; then again-you got time to get a GED and maybe as you grow older you have a possibility of obtaining some smarts. Even in the society of the world it is considered at the least unmannerly to dinegrate someone’s mother..so maybe you didn’t get any manners growing up.

        • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

          Albeit, last year, I confess, I laughed at a man for saying, “As you reap you will sow!” This is a man who has, with others, done great harm to a number of people! The man thought he was quoting Holy Scripture, but of course, he got the sense backward.
          The next morning, the Lord spoke to me, and said, “Forgive them, father, for they DO not what they KNOW!”
          — Though the man and his allies were KNOWINGLY doing WRONG, I was still to forgive them! I knew the Lord was speaking.
          So, if the Lord called me “father” — what do you say to that? Maybe you’ve missed His point?

        • Woody

          I would advice the good Father to wear this statement as “a badge of honor…” no finer compliment could have been paid by you than this Drivei:

          “She certainly “heard the Word of God, and kept it!”
          Sir… I am sure she did and Christ wants us to hear the Word of God and keep it too and the Catholic faith does not…
          For starters you need to “CAN YOUR TITLE” because if Jesus does not regard you as a father than neither do I”

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Woody

          Yes, and he received 5480 blows on His Sacred Body; gee, wonder why that ain’t in “Sola Sciptura,” and the 6th wound on his Body as Jesus said, “,..the wound unknown to man, and the one He felt the most pain out of.

      • Woody

        Yah, and she took a rat like me on-that’s really awesome! I’ve given her some heartburn that even antacid tablets won’t cure, but She has as promised stuck by me; and look at the high praise Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Wesley heaped upon her…
        wonderful

    • 1Prophet

      Amen! Brother. I’m tiring of their futile attempt at disproving God & His Word. Let the DEAD BURY THE DEAD!

  • shoebat

    Excellent.

  • KC

    Hi Proudvet
    I didn’t see your comment yesterday or I would have responded to you then. To answer your question about why I was offended– I think I’m really just experiencing a fundamental difference (on this website) in the way I believe believers should interact with one another. If you’ve read my posts to Walid, in this thread from yesterday, I think they explain why I believe the way I do. In spite of the differences that can happen in interpreting scripture (as you pointed out) I believe most of the Bible is easily understood– inspired by God to be comprehended at an adolescent reading level. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” I may quote scripture to make a point– without it, how else does one discuss doctrine, reproof, correct, or instruct? I don’t doubt that Walid & Ted are very knowledgable. My objections have to do with the atmosphere that surrounds the interaction on this website, some of the theology that (I believe) isn’t scriptural, and, also, the manner in which things are presented. We all have to decide for ourselves whether the interaction we engage in is a benefit or a hindrance. For me, I’ve decided it’s a hindrance here. But I do wish you nothing but God’s blessing. I’m an Air Force brat & I have nothing but admiration for your decision to serve our country. Thank you again.

  • We should not eat pork…a pig is the same as yesterday today and tommorrow…A pig is a pig is a pig…It is unclean for you do not eat pork…Those that recommend it decieve themselves and defile their bodies

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Geez, read the New Testament, God declared all things clean, EVEN US DIRTY GOYIM GENTILE DOGS!! I Thank God for that!

  • John A. Patriot

    Well said Walid, you have certainly done your due diligence… I recall just about all the same citations during my tenure under Jesuit Fathers whom taught me theology. I had the sad occasion this past year to attend two funerals at neo-Christian structures, I will refrain from calling them churches since by their own intention they do not represent what I would call my own Traditional Church. I found them devoid of any semblance of traditional Christian symbolism, would I not have ‘known’ them to be a house of worship to the congregation, I’d have thought them a banquet hall. I have been in the least of Catholic Churches, and even the simplest of icons convey the Holy. Personally I found the vacuous room distracting, and uncomfortable for the sacred use it was called to perform and yet those who were accustomed to this venue, the ‘congregation’ who some of which I call Friend, brought me to a new understanding of their regular outreach to me as a ‘fellow christian’ whom I suspect they consider a wayward soul… Yet it is I who now fear for their souls as wayward… All over this issue of Icons among other contrivances of the secular reaching in to the Traditional Catholic Church… I continue to be troubled by my visit to these venues

    • Therese

      Dear John A. Patriot
      I find it very sad and disturbing that you do not feel close to God without the Idols/Icons and decorations. Tradition is not what Christianity is about.
      Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.
      Nowhere in the old or new testament does it say it is ok to worship idols?
      Walid himself said in one of his videos that Muslims do not realise that they are worshiping Mohammed – but they are. Same thing.
      Walid also said that wearing a Habib or turban and performing their ritual prayers etc, can not make them holy. Same thing.
      Walid also said that what makes a person holy comes from the inside – from the heart. That is the truth; it does not from an idol/icon or decorations. When you receive the Holy Spirit your heart is circumcised. The veil is removed from your eyes, he lives within you.
      John 14:15-17 If you love me keep my commands. and I will ask the father and he will give you another advocate to be with you and be with you forever – the spirit of truth, the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him, but you know him for he lives within you and will be in you. You don’t need Idols/Icons or decorations to be close to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
      The article above is more Walid’s opinion than of sound scripture.
      I still do not understand why and what the point was for this article. Is it a competition of sorts? (etc; who is the most persecuted or who can argue the best about scripture? Or who can belittle another the most?)

  • Julie LaBrecque

    A thought that just came to mind. If ALL Christian denominations had retained icons through present day, at least crucifix and nothing else, look how much easier it would be to refute the Jehovah’s Witnesses who teach that Jesus was killed on a “torture stake”, a straight up and down wood beam, kind of an antichrist spirit in my eyes to deny the cross. In case some of you don’t know, besides that belief, they teach and believe that Michael the Archangel came down from Heaven as Jesus, and returned to Heaven as Michael. I debated a witness on my porch this winter, tried my best to show the trinity to him, and notice his reply: ” I was taught all that junk about the trinity from my Lutheran upbringing.” I was so shocked to hear how vulgar he was when he said it. Anyways, I just the last punch -as his fellow witnesses were closing in, I yelled at the top my lungs “Jesus Christ, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” He never looked back.

    • redeemed

      after they told me Jesus was not God but an angel, i asked them not to come back.

  • shoebat

    well said

  • Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord:that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

  • Maranatha

    Wahid, you say ”He ordains the proper use of images in Ex.25:18-22”, well I wouldn’t advise anyone to kiss that cherubim because they will die instantly.
    Those cherubim belong to the Arch of Covenant….That was tricky..An Ark that He hide to ourselves for almost 3,000 years now..

    Also we have to remind ourselves of another verse–if we still believe what the Bible says– Isaiah 42:8 ”I am the Lord, that is my name; and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise to graven images”. Doesn’t say ”worship”, He says Not Even Praise..!

    Where the Lord says ”Not”,…I think He means ”Not”.

    Let alone the FIRST COMMANDMENT:” Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image..”’….”Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…..”.

    I think ”not”is still ”not”.

    The whole note is disappointing.

    I was under the impression that you brought fresh air and core biblical teaching to the flock.
    Still our prayers with you.

    ..

  • Maranatha

    Another point about Constantine and paganism:

    The Caesars and the pagan religion had temples for female goddesses they called Basilica temples.

    When a Caesar died, he was elevated to the pantheon of gods for worship.

    The ruling Caesar was called ”Pontificus Maximus” of the pagan believers.

    The Caesars senate, was called the Curia Romana.

    They had a body of male priests and another of female priests.

    Their official language was the Latin.

    …..sounds familiar, so far????

    • Julie LaBrecque

      These same pagans believed in a God, believed that a “redeemer” would come, born of a virgin that was also his own child, in marriage between one man and one woman (with rings) ritual baths, sacrifice, prayers, etc. Many of the surrounding countries around Israel just happened to have an “ark”, just like the Israelites. You have chosen to list the practices that speak ugly, and leave out the “good” things they practiced. God prepared the pagans for inclusion into his covenant people, and God did not abolish every thing they did, he brought truth and light to everything, as the book says “a light of revelation to the gentiles”.

    • Steve Smith

      A Basilica was a law court Christians used them because it made a prefect Church building.

  • 1Prophet

    Amen brother! They violate so many Scriptures, but they don’t care what the Bible says. They only care what the pope says & they DO worship him as God!

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Why don’t you just descend on the Vatican and take him out and spare us all your diatribe.

      • 1Prophet

        Because unlike you, I know I am not God and He will deal with it, but I am not to remain silent or the rocks (not Peter) will cry out! HEARSAY (Shoebat) again! To you TRUTH is a diatribe and HEARSAY is your truth!

  • Maranatha

    Another interesting question:

    In pagan Roman with so many priests– male and female–serving their gods day and night. Where do you think they went to after Constantine ruled only his type of Christianity will be official and all the rest will be illegal?

    Do you think those pagan priests went to different business like selling oranges in the street?

    They went to fill up applications for the new official religion.

    Many open positions there.

    In the meantime–and you failed to mention this–many real biblical Christians went to the hiding, to the mountains, to the country side and abroad where they build up communities all aver Europe.

    In hiding for many centuries they gave origin to the Anabaptist, Valdenses, Huttites, etc.

    Even before the 800’s…!!!

    Because the Christian Evangelism didn’t start with Luther.

    Dont’ you know that in the Great Day of the Lord, ALL IDOLS will run away in horror ”into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty”????..Isaiah 2:18-19.

    Finally:

    17 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences(errors) will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

    2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

    ..

  • Steve Smith

    Walid ,I am shocked at the comments posted on here. These people call themselves Christian. I have never seen such hatred and ignorance of historical facts. Good Christian teaching is lacking ,the church settled these arguments seven hundred years ago in the 7’th Ecumenical of Nicea. We did not portray the divne nature of God in the old testament but he did reveal a part of himself in the form of the burning bush and the three angles in the visit to Abraham. Holy icons in the church are seen as supporting the doctrine of the incarnation, that God came in the flesh that he was truly God and truly man in the person of Jesus Christ. We see all of creation as good and we use it in the worship of God Jesus said ”he that has seen me has seen the father” therefor we can portray God in the person of Jesus Christ. All Christian holy icons are prototypes. When we venerate an icon

    • shoebat

      Steve, I have seen more shocking things than this. I lived for two decades with this type of problems. I am sitting ere and weeping reading so much hatred and ignorance. I simply took comfort watching your icon, I see two crosses The Crosses over the Crescents. To me I see a prophetic symbol that when Christianity defeats the revived Ottomans. I read that this has first appeared over the domes of Churches in Russia and Ukraine with the capture of the city of Kazan by Tsar John IV in the sixteenth century.
      It became more popular in iconography, especially in icons of the Holy Protection of the Mother of God where a Greek Cross was placed over the Crescent to recall the Christian victory over Muslim attackers. I wish you could write an article for me on this to post.

      • Steve Smith

        Walid . You have made my heart glad my brother. I tried to get this point across with no luck People in the U.S. do not understand our cross and I will try my best to write something for you.
        a Russian Middle Age Dome Cross from Vladimir and the icon of the Mother of God ”Stand for Christ with the Martyr’s Cross”

  • shoebat

    thank you for that proud vet, thank you

  • shoebat

    another guest, perhaps you might want to share with us, and since you pointed 1 or 2 commandments I broke, just how many commandments did you break?

    • 1Prophet

      Shoebat you are a disgusting & pathetic Jew hater just as all Catholics are! Pope Piss backed the Nazi & Rome has always wanted to take control of Jerusalem to set up the Vatican there!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You just accused Walid (and Catholics) of being “disgusting & pathetic Jew haters”. You are proving to the world that you are a disgusting & pathetic Walid and Catholic hater.

        • 1Prophet

          And how is that so? Because you said so? Again you trip your own self up with you unlearned words. Being as what I said is truth, then how can I have proved to the world, (oh, and I didn’t realize the whole world was reading all of this LOL! How uninformed of me) that I hate you and Walid? I don’t. I HATE YOUR PATHETIC LIES! You can change that by truly receiving Jesus in place of the pope and Peter. I would think Peter would turn over in his grave if he were still there, if he could see how all of your TYPE not Catholics again, but you who believe the doctrines of demons, to think you are attempting to set Mary, Peter & the pope above God Himself! REPENT!

        • Woody

          What’s new wit dis? I always take Jesus advice and NOT go the way of the world; Note:

          (where does the devil want us to go?)

          – Abortion is fine – so I go pro-life
          – Gay marriage is harmless (35 mm dead of Aids) – so i follow Scripture
          – Make as much money as you can and keep it – I give to the poor
          – Nothing wrong with Pornography – Yah, right, keep on the straight
          – Let’s get as many churches as we can – Hmm, Did not Jesus say .would that all be one…
          – Let’s put the Jewish people to death (Hitler) – How ’bout loving them as the chosen people
          – Let’s have them all register just so we can be nice to them – Right
          – Turn in your guns – this will stop violent crime – right – the strictest gun law cities in the world have the highest crime rates so what shall we support?
          – stay out of the Church Jesus Founded – hey where is that Church today?
          – Maryjane is a find drug – it should be legalized – don’t belive the latest study that it causes brain damage

          And so on–do not follow society

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Amen. Even in-vitro fertilization produces more embryos than are implanted, the rest are “kept”, and if not “used” at a later day by the couple, are destroyed. I’m not sure which pope produced the paper that explains the theology behind it (being a grave moral wrong), but it is a brilliant paper, may have been Benedict or John Paul II.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Let them try taking guns in Oklahoma! It will be a hard fought fight, “I’ll give up my guns when they pry my cold dead fingers off it”, famous bumper sticker around here!

  • 1Prophet

    I’d love you to try and knock my teeth out. In a matter of 2 seconds you would be crying on the ground. Don’t even talk your lies. The Catholics Church by pope piss backed the Nazi’s and even gave their names. Don’t even go there. Do you want my address so you can try in vain to knock out my teeth. You have no idea of my training in the Corps & what I could do to you. But I do so in self defense. You however have threatened me, like a good Catholic. Also you make decision without all the facts, like who I am & what I can do. There has yet to be a 13th degree black belt in any form of martial arts been able to beat me! Nor any other of my grade. We didn’t train to earn belts, but to kill! This whole conversion of violence is childish, but life & death is final!

  • Therese

    Look I still don’t understand WHY you felt you had to write this article. I’m shocked that you did. This article is about your opinion not scripture.
    The title itself is disrespectful and judgemental.
    This is not an article written to promote and bring about unity. I’m surprised that you did not see that coming. Your a smart man.
    I see more hatred in the article and in the comments made by said Catholics.
    If a person were hurt, suffering or in need and I was there I would help them in the name of Jesus. If they were any Christian denomination, and even if they were a Muslim.
    I may end up like your uncle (Steve Smith); but where one light goes out – Jesus then will light another light/s.
    Jesus asked us if we would die for not only the ones we love, or those we have something in common with, but to save those we don’t love or even know. Jesus said even Pagans would die for their friends and loved ones.
    For me as for most evangelicals – Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one.
    There are numerous scriptures in the New and Old Testaments in the Bible that say do not use Idols.
    God does not like this so we should not do it – THE END. God always has the final word and he knows best.

  • Gina101

    Another commonality between Muslims and Protestants, there is no Magesterium; therefore, they base their beliefs solely on their own interpretations of the Bible and thus have thousands of denominations. Likewise, Muslims have different versions, interpretations, and tribes based out of the Koran.

  • Gina101

    Then you should never ask any family member or friend to pray for you. And rip apart and throw away any pictures of loved ones in your home or wallet.

    The church Christ established is a family, not lonely isolationist individuals. Those who died and are in heaven are more alive in Jesus than any of us believers on earth.

    • shoebat

      I agree with you Gina, we are not meant to be in the closet, but our light should be as the lighthouse on a hill. But someone could argue, what about monks who live as hermits, how would you respond to that?

      • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

        (“Monk” comes from monachos, one who lives “mono-” as a solitary; but in normal monastic communities, the hermit is still attached to a monastery, he is still a brother, and is still a member of the family; he still responds to the abbot (< father). Ultimately, the monk/hermit remembers the Lord JESUS, Who returned to society after His wilderness fast, strengthened by His battle with satan, to strengthen others.

    • Woody

      Now this is insight; how many homes have I been in where according to the Iconoclasts – ‘graven images” are displayed; shows how silly this argument is lasting over centuries.

      • Julie

        How then do you explain the ‘graven images’ dictated by God Himself regarding the most sacred Mercy Seat in the ancient Jewish Temple.

    • Woody

      Just saw this; how nicely put and succinctly;
      Protestants often back themselves into “untenable and unsustainable positions; for example–like “call no one father” and then go over their house and watch themselves call their own father “father,” or as above with their anti-icon fetish- and then having pictures (a statue is a 3 dimensional picture) {ask Walid as he is an Engineer) of ones they love in their own house; or saying only God may be prayed to; and then “asking friends to pray for them.” Strange lot that they are.
      [Walid has also done excellent research on how the early Christians lived and they were against none of this and practiced as we do today.

  • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

    Most of us have, at least once, been invited to a friend’s home to spend the night. We might have been rudely awakened if the friend set an alarm clock & we didn’t know about it, but it rang loudly right in our ear! We could accept the ringing, and wake up; or we could slam our hand down on it & shut it off, ignoring the Wake-up call.
    Walid has rung a loud Alarm! There is something alarming in our world today. It is the resurgence of radical Islam, determined to force all Jews and Christians into “submission” (Islam), or death.
    Walid is calling attention, like an alarm, to the division of Christians which ought not to be! There are those who “sleep” on tired old theological slogans they have learned ages ago, and never further examined, old rhetoric that does not match the facts, polemical and uncharitable charges that do not bear close examination. The Alarm Bell (Walid) must Sound Off! He has done a great service! “Awake, thou that sleepiest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee Light!” — a hymn sung at Baptism (in the middle of Easter night), even BEFORE St Paul wrote to the Ephesians!!! (The newly baptized, now clothed in fresh white robes, and anointed with sacred Chrism in the Sign of the Cross, were then given a candle or lamp for their procession back into the room where the rest of the church was awaiting them, for the First Mass of Easter.)
    Christians have much more that UNITES them. Some of the things that have been causes of division in the past were simply from the polemics of the 16th Century, and never were true to begin with! Get over it! Learn some charity! Examine with an open mind what has helped people grow in grace, even *outside* your own experience, your own “traditions” or heritage. (This, obviously, goes both ways! Catholics can learn from “Bible-thumpers”; and Protestants can learn from Catholics; Orthodox & Catholics can learn from each other… we will all grow, to God’s greater glory.
    Ikons are not idols. God uses them to teach people the truths of our Faith. HE HIMSELF made the First IKON — on His Holy Shroud. (Before a single word of the Gospels was written, the New Testament already had a Frontispiece!) The Ikon was among the very first “languages” into which the Scriptures were translated. (And even Baptists print coloring books to teach the Bible!) Our Lady Maryam is the Mother of JESUS our Lord GOD and KING; she is not a false goddess of the Babylonians. (THAT is the nonsense! Get off it!)

    EVERYONE! Heed the Alarm! We Christians are called to UNITY, such as will convince the unbelieving world (including the Mohammedans) that JESUS CHRIST is For REAL! — and He can’t be REAL without a real Mom! One of the great saints who had to face Islam first (St John of Damascus), says, “In the title ‘Mother of God’ is found the whole Mystery of the Incarnation.” If we let her, she will point us ALL to CHRIST. And the more often we see the ikons, the more often our hearts and minds will be drawn to their Original in Heaven. Let them be what they were meant to be — Windows into Heaven! And let the Christians UNITE. We must, for God’s Will to be done in us.

  • If you believe she can answer our prayers than feel free sir to pray the Hail Mary just like the Romans said Hail Caesar or Germans said Heil Hitler…Was not Caesar consider or at least worship as a god??? Think about it sir …Where on earth do you think Hail Mary came from???

    • Billkammerer

      “Where on earth do you think Hail Mary came from???”

      Uh… The Bible.. Luke 1:28.

      • The Lord was with many holy men and prophets of God while they walked the earth…Does that mean we should pray to them instead of to God??? I rest my case

        • Woody

          More profitable for you to rest your mind.

        • Woody

          You are the only one who ignores God, all prayers go to God, but many are there to assist us in our needs, did He not say wherever two or three are gathered together – ”
          He chicken-plucks the verses and ignores the rest, the Bible needs to be read “in toto.”…we are all in this together whether we like it or not.

    • Woody

      Dumb, we know where the Hail Mary came from–you don’t – it was the Archangel’s greeting to Her when he asked her to the the Mother of Our Lord, and, with a free will, she could have answered ,”No!,” and you and the rest of us would be without a Savior and no way to get to Heaven–ingrate!

      • Again your pathetic attempt to somehow justify praying to her by comparing an angel with a simply greeting to Mary wreaks of total confusion and utter blindness…You would be far better off to pray to someone like Abraham or John the Baptist…At least they and their words are listed more prominently in the Word of God but better still pray only to God…

  • Do you always feel like praying sir??? When I pray I want it to have meaning and sincerity and be completely open to the Lord and asking him to lead me in ways so I can fulfill his will here on earth…and I see you wrote this to take a cheap shot at my credibility and desire to know the truth as if you think you’re a hundred times better …well I let God be the judge of that!!! Just remember by the standards that you judge others in like fashion you will be judged!!!

    • Woody

      You missed again…as usual…Jesus said…”to pray always.”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    gotcha, I thought you were implying that they must have started “their tradition” base on something Catholics do. Like you stated, our healing is free because it comes through the Holy Spirt!

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Amen, and a big THANKS to Fr Christopher Kelley, for jumping in here to “Help” us “feeble” Catholics in trying to defend The Blessed Mother! I knew a lot of the “background” to her in the OT, but not the Maryam analysis part. Awesome info, let’s all pray for all priests, bishops, and cardinals, and of course, Pope Francis. They need our prayers as much or more than anybody, their job is a never-ending devotion to Christ BODY & SPIRIT, and to His Church. I publicly thank them all.

    • Woody

      Yes, and Walid hit it on the head when he said, by using the title, Rev he will be brushed off by many; is it not the Protestant Theologian Harnack who said , so many are prejudiced.

  • Yoda Dundar

    Sadly Walid also takes shots at Spirit filled Christians and ridiculed speaking in tongues, yet we read all through Acts, John, Cor etc even where Paul said he thanks God he prays

    1 Corinthians 14:18 1_corinthians/14-18.htm‎
    I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: … It is a proof that a people are forsaken of God, when he gives them up to the rule of those … impassioned nature of St. Paul, who was so wholly under the influence of the Spirit of God.
    Walid you know so much yet so little about the true Gospel, have to agree with other posters here, am disappointed

  • pfehrman

    Walid, first let me tell you that I love that you love God’s Word and speak truth through your understanding of it; thank you for that. Now, for the Catholic side of this discussion that you’ve presented here. I’m assuming from this article that you are standing behind the Catholic faith; I have no idea if you worship in a Catholic church or not, but my experience with the Catholic faith takes me in a different direction than what you’ve presented here. First, all of the Catholics that I know do NOT venerate Mary, they pray to Mary and worship her. Second, they consider the Pope as God on earth. I have a problem with both of those things since I do not believe that Mary is holy as God is holy. I do NOT believe that the Pope is God on earth. My Catholic friends and family do NOT read and study the Bible or even know what it says. Constantine didn’t event anything, but he did endorse the mixture of his pagan beliefs with that of the Catholic beliefs, that much I do know. His mother did do a LOT of destruction in Jerusalem based on her “feelings” of where Christ was buried, etc. There is a lot wrong with the Constantine influence. Worshiping statues is WRONG; it IS idolatry and shouldn’t be done. The pagan holidays shouldn’t be venerated as Christian/Jewish holidays. What Jesus did is what we should do today. I’m confused about your assertions on many points that seem very opposite to what you’ve taught for so long now. My take away has always been to find the answers in the Bible. Christmas, Easter, etc. are not in the Bible but the warnings to not do what the pagans do is in there. Are you advocating the pagan rituals and holidays because it does sound that way in your article. Please let me know, because I’m very confused right now where you actually do stand on your faith. Thanks

  • Woody

    There is nothing in Scripture that says to “listen to Scripture;” so where in Scripture is “Sola Scriptura (SOURCE , passage and verse please); Scripture
    did not come in until 325 AD,and I do not hear of one Protestant that attended the Council of Nicea? Why did God command for 2 angels (according to you–icons) be placed on the Ark of the Covenant; why did God command Moses to configure a snake (an icon) and have the people gaze at it to heal? Looks to me you are at odds with God, and I will go with my Dad every time.

    Your problem, like the others is “self-interpretation of the Bible;” and while the Bible may be inerrant–you are not–I do not see any permission given to you by God in the so-called Sola Scriptura (what verse is your name in?) As in St. Paul telling Timothy …to you “What’s the pillar and foundation of Truth?” Certainly, not Scripture 1 Timothy 3:15–“the Church.” How have you missed that one?
    Walid is right on!
    You have over 32,750 churches all claiming “my scripture is better than your scripture.” Jesus is ONE like His Church is ONE.
    God Bless

  • Woody

    Jesus said, “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” Walid has done this with great research; it is what it is; and it cannot be change because you disagree with it – God told his loved one to create a Serpent (an icon according to you) and have the people gaze upon it to be healed; He also commanded that 2 angels be placed on the Ark of the Covenant; so unless you are greater than God, I think my Dad can speak for Himself.
    Keep on preaching the Truth, Walid, no matter where it leads you, for you will be pleasing to Jesus. What you are doing is, like Martin, plucking verses which support preconceived errors of the mind (a logical error 101)

  • Woody

    More nonsense; More lies from the trenches – Catholic beliefs are published outright in a Catechism which may be obtained free at any public library…he needs to learn the difference between “veneration” and “adoration.z” But education runs shallow with these guys.

    I don’t think these guys are Catholic but they sure got it right:

    I’d respectfully ask our Evangelical and Fundamentalist friends here to think carefully about these quotes and consider just how far modern-day Protestantism has drifted from its 16th-century moorings, not to mention how very far it has drifted from the fifteen centuries of the Catholic Faith that preceded the Protestant Reformation.

    Martin Luther
    (his writings)

    Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

    SOURCE: {Luther’s
    Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

    Luther: “Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

    SOURCE: , ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } [Luther}

    SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

    {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

    Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .”

    Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
    know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
    nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

    {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

    Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

    “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

    {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

    John Calvin

    Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in
    concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

    SOURCE: {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr.
    William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

    [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn
    from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man
    will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

    SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol.
    I, p. 107}

    “Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

    {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary
    on John, (7:3) }

    Huldreich Zwingli

    ZWINGLI: “He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical
    defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . “To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting – not prayer – ‘Hail Mary’ . . . “God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels – it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow.”

    ‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . .There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    ZWINGLI: SOURCE: {G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London:
    Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

    Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of Jesus

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Irony of ironies, most modern day protestants PROTEST against many of the beliefs of their very heroes, except, of course, sola scriptura & sola fide. The earliest fathers wrote how Mary was not only the “New Ark”, but also, the “New Eve”.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        They also fail to understand that in Aramaic, the word used for brother (I think it is adelphos), was also used for a cousin, and nephew. Even Abraham calls Lot his “brother”, in reality it was his nephew. Early church fathers tell us that Joseph was a widower, and had children, I think 5 sons.

      • Woody

        are you still up; I am going to start calling you by my “fondest name,” Bible head. Do you call the verse which says that Jesus “is going to set sister against brother, brother against, and so on?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          The people that believe Mary did not remain a virgin do so in to their own peril. They say the verse “and Joseph knew her not until she had given birth…” makes it obvous that she and St Joseph had ___. Until, when used in scripture is used to state that the thing mentioned NEVER happened. For instance, back in the OT, we are told “and Michal had no children UNTIL the day of her death:, so by their reasoning, Michal had children after she died. Also, Jesus told the Apostles “I will be with you UNTIL the end of the age”., again with their reasoning, after the age, Jesus will no longer be with them.

          • Woody

            This shows how far they have strayed:

            Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

            SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress
            Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

            SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she
            later lost her virginity . . .”

            Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
            know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
            nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

            “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
            Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

            Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in
            concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

            SOURCE: {Harmony
            of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

            [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform
            us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

            SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol.
            I, p. 107}

            “Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

            {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

      • Woody

        And how about even the Eastern Churches–Theotakos – Mother of God, now they had a big stink about it back then and of course my Mom, Mary won.
        The first Protester you can see in John VI when Jesus tried to give them His Body and Blood, and –they walked away for “this is a hard saying…to follow Him no more. Boy did they miss out but Peter as always was with His Lord…”To whom shall we go.”

        • Julie LaBrecque

          And guess what, that very verse when the disciples no longer followed him over eating his flesh and drinking his blood is John 6:66

  • Woody

    Great post, but he always ignores the Truth for the “Truth would set him free,” and Thank, you Jesus

  • Woody

    Yes, and I am the worse piece of crap around (oops sorry Julie for swearing in front of you). That is why I quote Adolph Harnack so much, the great Protestant Theologian [he must have been the last one because – they have so many diverse beliefs, I don’t know how they could have a Theologian today]; anyway, he says so many are both prejudiced and then he upped it–“blind.”

  • Woody

    All this does is prove one can read; while the Bible is inerrant – ones “interpretations” are not and proof of that is the 32,750 Protestant churches growing by one every 5 days, and it won’t be long until they are up to 50,000, all due of course once the left the church they were doomed to confusion…see 1 Timothy 3:15 where St.Paul does not say “the pillar and foundation is ‘scripture” – he says, …listen to the Church and Jesus’ Church is still in the world today (unless you believe He is a liar)–your job, Friday is “to know the Truth and it will set you free,” and “to seek the Truth…”
    God Bless

  • Woody

    Why are you on this site; you don’t sound like a Christian and,I’ll bet because St.Paul was forever have a constant dialogue with the Corinthians, he was “hating” them too in his efforts to correct their ignorance. So much for the logic and your preconceive neurotic tendencies; threatening a lady only gives further proof to your impotence-you must be a Demoncrat; if you had a semblance of knowledge, you would know that the Catholic Church came out first against the KKK, but as Harnack, the great Protestant Theologian says, “you are blind.”

  • Woody

    This man is no Christian and is ignorant besides; see a shrink for you anger problems. The question should be “what are you doing on this site?

  • Woody

    You are disappointed but Walid follows Jesus, “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.” Remember-the Pharisees were disappointed in Jesus because he also spoke the truth….

  • Woody

    Yes, my parents lived through No Irish Need Apply but you don’t hear us complain about it nor did I even hear it form my mom or dad; most became streetcar conductors or motormen as they used to say or even the lowest considered job – policemen; who knows probably the lowest thing on earth now would congressmen and women—or maybe-Harry Reid.

  • shoebat

    Actually Proudvet56, The Shoebat Foundation is printing CONFESSIONS 😉

  • Woody

    Nonsense-read Walid’s research…God Himself commanded for 2 angels (replicas) be made and the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with them; additionally. He commanded Moses to make an “image” of a snake, and when the people viewed it -they would be healed of their malady.

  • Woody

    Nonsense-read Walid’s research…additional news to someone else. God Himself commanded for 2 angels (replicas) be made and the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with them; additionally. He commanded Moses to make an “image” of a snake, and when the people viewed it -they would be healed of their malady.

  • Woody

    Boy I’ll back that up; Walid’s viewpoint is wide open and that is refreshing.

  • Joseph Mulligan

    If there is any truth in what is written here, why is it that a host of secular and church historians, including catholic, utterly disagree with you? In fact accepted church history shows opposition at Rome and across the west to the rise of idolatry in the use of icons in the late 4th century. Catholic authors in the late 4th century considered promotion of religious icons of Jesus or Mary to be heretical. I’m shocked and amazed at your ignorance concerning history!

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  • joseph mazz

    He touched Jesus’ garment and was healed. “This is my Body”. It’s really rather straight forward.

  • Pictures and art can tell and speak about the history to be remembered, but l still have trouble with statues in Churches. l guess a statue can Make people look and see the religious side of it and to remind non-believe we do have Jesus. But l still think it is wrong to bow your head and pray in front of them. l know they used engraving on object to tell a story of religion. It also help the young to learn. I would never damage a religious statue or any statues. I just think of them as art and nothing much more then that, a refresh reminder of a Bible verse. or parable. As a child l learn more about Jesus through the viewing of a artful picture book. I do not worship the planets but thought of them as telling times and days and when religious days are to be honored. Like a calendar written in the Heavens. Drawings were used to tell the history. and most drawing were engraved even. I understand that. Seems a little like holding statues in honor in recognition of qualities of holiness is a bit much.

  • Woody

    The Origin of the Catholic Church it’s origin is in the Bible; Jesus founded it on His favorite Apostle, Peter (his real name was Simon) but Jesus changed it to Peter (Kephas, Cephas) in the Biblical language – Greek and Aramaic,) both meaning “Rock” which Jesus used later when He said, “Thou art Peter (Rock) and upon this Rock I will build My Church.” And He did giving it wide authority to rule, “Whatsoever you Bind upon earth I shall Bind in Heaven; whatsoever you Loose upon earth I shall Loose in Heaven.” (nothing stronger than this since “Binding and Loosing” among the Jews was making and changing of Mosaic Law. If you “google” it you will see 266 direct lines of “Bishops of Rome” (where Peter first made His SEE) to Pope Francis (the present Pope) The first 30+ popes were Martyred by the Romans beginning with Peter who asked to be crucified “upside down’ (since he was not worthy to die like his Master) At the time of Peter, the Church of Jesus was known as “The People of the Way” (Jesus Way), but by the first Century “Heresy” was already seeping into the Church so much that People were getting confused (s design of Satan) [persons making all kinds of crazy claims like they do today] (brings us to 107 AD) The Third Bishop of Antioch, “Ignatius of Antioch” (Peter was the first Bishop of Antioch before he moved his SEE to Rome) was captured by the Romans and was on his way to Rome to be eaten by Lions (actually looking forward to it), when many in crowd asked him “which is or where is the Church that Jesus founded?” To which he answered in a letter (still extant) basically “look to Rome wherever your find the Bishop of Rome you will find Jesus’ Church for that Church is truly “Catholic” (a Greek word meaning “Universal” Church of Jesus Christ and it has been known as “the Catholic Church” ever since.
    God Bless, brother

  • Tom_mcewen

    He didn’t, Jesus said this day you shall be within paradise with me, Jesuse visited those in prison and did assend to the father (heaven) so the criminal was not in heaven but in Purgatory

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Because ‘But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth.” Mark 2:10. Jesus also asked forgiveness for those who killed him, and He told Pontius Pilate that those who handed him over had the greater sin (John 19:11)-a teaching which protestants vehemently deny – even though Christ spoke it.

  • William Dean Ziemer

    I’m a little sad really; I have been blessed listening to various tapes or yours Walid but I must admit I was concerned early-on by some things you said that made me believe you had not found the fullness of the freedom in Christ that is available.
    I’ll hold on to hope for you.

    As for this article it is very weak at best;
    you use Catholic doctrines to support Catholic doctrines; how does that work?
    And your few, actual, “Holy Scripture” references don’t lend the support you may have hoped for.

    I was called to Christ when I was 24 years old. I was in my top bunk around midnight, in a army dorm in Ft. Monmouth New Jersey. I knew nothing of Church doctrine nor had any bias concerning which Church I should attend and did attend almost all known Churches at various times in the first couple of years.

    No one told me anything about statues, paintings and other icons but in my spirit I was repulsed by them. I can only believe that it was the Lord who was guiding me because, as an artist, I have a natural attraction to all of those things .

    I didn’t read your whole article because it also sickened me, no offence to you, but one thing I did notice; you brought up the fact that God told Moses to make the bras pole that had the two snakes on it. That is true but you neglected by intention or by ignorance, to mention what Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah did to it and other icons…

    2 Kings 18 verses 4-5
    “He removed the high places
    and broke the sacred pillars,
    cut down the wooden image

    and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made;

    for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it,
    and called it Nehushtan.

    He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that
    after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah,
    nor who were before him.

  • Maria

    Look up “venerate” from a reputable source before you just jot your own thoughts. To venerate is to regard with great respect or to revere. Veneration can be defined as “respect or awe directed toward someone due to his/her value or greatness.”
    The simplest definition of worship is to “ascribe worth.” Worship can be more completely defined as “showing respect, love, reverence, or adoration.” Based on the dictionary, no clear difference between veneration and worship exists. In fact, veneration and worship are often used as synonyms for each other.

    But dictionary definitions are not the point. It does not matter what it is called. The Bible nowhere instructs followers of Jesus Christ to offer worship, veneration, adoration, or anything similar to anyone but God. Nowhere does the New Testament describe any followers of Jesus Christ worshipping, venerating, or adoring anyone other than God. They did not receive worship, either. Peter refused to receive adoration from Cornelius (Acts 10:25–26), and Paul and Barnabas were equally adamant that the people of Lystra not venerate them (Acts 14:15). Twice in the Book of Revelation (19:10; 20:7), the apostle John begins to worship an angel, and the angel instructs him, “Worship God!” Mary and the saints who have gone to heaven before us would say the same thing: “Worship God!”

    The Catholic Church has different degrees of worship: dulia, hyper dulia, and latria. Dulia is the honor given to the saints. Hyper dulia is the honor given to Mary alone, as the greatest of the saints. Latria is the honor given to God alone. In contrast, the Bible always ascribes honor, in the context of worship, to God alone (1 Chronicles 29:11; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 4:11; 5:13). Even if there were biblical support for different levels of worship, there still would be no biblical support for offering lower/lesser levels of worship to anyone other than God.

    Only God is worthy of worship, adoration, praise (Nehemiah 9:6; Revelation 4:11; 15:4), and veneration, no matter how it is defined. Mary’s worth comes from the fact that God choose her for a glorious role and saved her from her sins through the death of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:47). The saints’ worth comes from the fact that God saved them, transformed them, and then used them in mighty and amazing ways. May we all, with Mary and the saints, fall on our knees and worship the only One who is worthy.

  • ” I wasnt aware there were any objects of veneration among those of the fledgling church.”

    Really? Aprons and handkerchiefs are physical objects, but this did not prevent the Apostles, since they “brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.” (Acts 19:12)

    And since you said you “love me to death” then start believing the Bible in Acts.

  • RDH,

    You got checkmated on your previous comment. Are you sure you would want me to checkmate you on this one?

  • You would have considered Moses an idolater when he “made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,” so “that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.” (Numbers 21:9)