There is More Sexual Abuse in The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Tchividjian had become convinced that the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that had rocked the Catholic Church. He is careful to say that there’s not enough data to compare the prevalence of child sex abuse in Protestant and Catholic institutions, but he’s convinced the problem has reached a crisis point. He’s not alone in that belief. In 2012, Christian radio host Janet Mefferd declared, “This is an epidemic going on in churches. … When are evangelicals going to wake up and say we have a massive problem in our own churches?” For years, Protestants have assumed they were immune to the abuses perpetrated by celibate Catholic priests. But Tchividjian believes that Protestant churches, groups, and schools have been worse than Catholics in their response. Mission fields, he says, are “magnets” for would-be molesters; ministries and schools do not understand the dynamics of abuse; and “good ol’ boy” networks routinely cover up victims’ stories to protect their reputations. He fears it is only a matter of time before it all blows up in their faces and threatens the survival of powerful Protestant institutions. 

The report by Kathryn Joyce, Article from Prospect.org is an eye opener to the extend of the sexual abuse epidemic in many Protestant Churches and schools. By this article, we do not want to undermine Catholic abuses by Catholic priests whom we feel should also be burned at the stake, but its time to fess up, and before we pull the plank out of the eye in our Catholic brothers, Protestants should first see the plank in their eye. The following is the full report:

In November 2012, Bob Jones University, the longtime flagship institution of fundamentalism, announced it had hired GRACE (short for Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), an independent group of evangelical lawyers, pastors, and psychologists, to investigate the university’s handling of sexual-abuse and -harassment reports. Bob Jones officials said they were taking the step after watching the pedophilia scandal unfold at Pennsylvania State University the previous year. They vowed to ask forgiveness of any students they may have “underserved.”

In truth, the origins of the investigation were closer to home. In 2011, an abuse scandal from years before had become national news with a 20/20 report. Tina Anderson, a 15-year-old who lived in New Hampshire, was raped and impregnated in 1997 by one of her church’s deacons, then in his late thirties, while she was a babysitter for his family. When Anderson and her mother told their pastor, Bob Jones graduate Chuck Phelps, what had happened, Phelps had Anderson stand before the congregation while he read a confession of her pregnancy. She was then sent to a family in Colorado until the baby was born and given up for adoption.

Anderson’s rapist, a registered sex offender, was made to confess as well—but to adultery, not rape—and he remained at the church for years. Phelps, who’d gone on to be president of the fundamentalist Maranatha Baptist Bible College in Wisconsin, maintained close ties to Bob Jones, serving on its board of trustees as well as on its missionary and youth-camp boards.

Students and alumni had already begun to agitate online against the school’s lack of academic and student freedom, as well as its response to reports of sexual abuse. Anderson’s story highlighted what these critics—dismissed by the school as disaffected “detractors”—saw as a pattern in how Bob Jones stigmatized students who reported rape or sexual assault. A senior named Christopher Peterman started a Facebook group and website called Do Right BJU, which aimed to remove Phelps from the board and called for a range of reforms; he organized the first campus protest in the university’s history to raise awareness of sexual abuse. Phelps resigned from the board of trustees in December 2011, just days before the rally. But then a few months later, on the eve of graduating, Peterman was expelled for watching Glee, among other violations.

The story continued to grow. Peterman and alumni groups active on Facebook began to hear from more and more students who claimed they had been poorly treated when they reported sexual abuse to school staff. Over the following months, alumni pressured the university to update its policies and investigate the school’s handling of abuse reports. They urged the university to hire GRACE, which had investigated allegations of sex abuse in two Christian missionary groups. To almost everyone’s surprise, seven months after the 20/20 report aired, Bob Jones announced that it had listened.

It’s hard to overstate the significance of the hire. Bob Jones, founded in 1927, isn’t just any conservative Christian college; it’s the de facto center of the national Independent Fundamental Baptist network, which functions almost as a denomination unto itself, with thousands of affiliated churches, feeder schools, and businesses including Bob Jones’s textbook company, radio station, and music publisher. Outsiders call the school the “mother ship” of fundamentalism; the university prefers another moniker, “the fortress of faith.”

To call Bob Jones insular doesn’t quite cover it. On its compound in Greenville, South Carolina, once surrounded in part by barbed wire, faculty children were, until recently, born at the on-campus hospital, raised in the K-12 Bob Jones Academy, educated at the university, then sent out into the world armed with a list of approved churches (mostly those that send the school students or money and that are often pastored by Bob Jones “preacher boys” like Phelps). Until the early 2000s, faculty were paid minuscule wages—hovering around $15,000 a year for a full-time professor—in exchange for subsidized living and the commitment that the school would care for them into old age (a retirement plan called “The Promise”). Rules for students are infamously strict—no TV, no holding hands, no Christian contemporary music, and, until 2000, no interracial dating.

By 2012, though, the fortress no longer seemed inviolable. While Bob Jones was for decades the choice destination for conservative Christian students, enrollment at the school was dropping: down about 10 percent in the last decade and nearly 25 percent since its heyday in the early 1980s. Alumni blogs published pictures of what used to be an overflowing chapel, now left with hundreds of empty seats; two dorms are scheduled to be demolished this summer. Leaked minutes from a recent faculty meeting noted that Christian colleges are closing across the U.S. but that Bob Jones might find salvation in China and South Korea, where “the opportunity for Christian education” is still “unbelievable.” The school has begun selling off assets: the radio station, the music publisher, the hospital. “The Promise” to support retiring faculty has been rescinded.

Christopher Breedlove

Boz Tchividjian

Even so, the idea that Bob Jones would reach outside itself for help was stunning—especially considering to whom it was reaching out. GRACE was founded by a member of evangelical royalty: Boz Tchividjian (“rhymes with religion,” he likes to say), a former prosecutor who teaches law at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia, Jerry Falwell’s legacy school, and who is the grandson of “America’s pastor,” Billy Graham. Before he came to fame, Graham was a Bob Jones University dropout who Bob Jones Sr. said would never amount to more than a “poor country Baptist preacher somewhere out in the sticks.” Though the two later became friends, they split again in 1957 over Graham’s revival crusades—in particular, a crusade at Madison Square Garden that Jones, who’d warned Graham to avoid cities and politicians, condemned as too ecumenical and accommodating to modern society. The quarrel between the two men led to a rift between fundamentalists and evangelicals that persists today, as evangelicals seek to win souls by engaging mainstream culture and fundamentalists retreat from it. When Jones’s great-grandson Stephen Jones, now president of the university, appealed to Graham’s heir, it seemed like a transformative moment. Perhaps the fortress was raising its gates at last.

It was momentous for Tchividjian and GRACE as well. Tchividjian had become convinced that the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that had rocked the Catholic Church. He is careful to say that there’s not enough data to compare the prevalence of child sex abuse in Protestant and Catholic institutions, but he’s convinced the problem has reached a crisis point. He’s not alone in that belief. In 2012, Christian radio host Janet Mefferd declared, “This is an epidemic going on in churches. … When are evangelicals going to wake up and say we have a massive problem in our own churches?”

For years, Protestants have assumed they were immune to the abuses perpetrated by celibate Catholic priests. But Tchividjian believes that Protestant churches, groups, and schools have been worse than Catholics in their response. Mission fields, he says, are “magnets” for would-be molesters; ministries and schools do not understand the dynamics of abuse; and “good ol’ boy” networks routinely cover up victims’ stories to protect their reputations. He fears it is only a matter of time before it all blows up in their faces and threatens the survival of powerful Protestant institutions.

In the past couple of years, Tchividjian has begun to look prophetic. Reports and allegations of sex abuse, rape, and harassment—and a culture that has badly mishandled them—have become more and more frequent. In fall 2012, former members of Sovereign Grace Ministries, a “family” of about 80 conservative churches from various theological traditions, filed a class-action lawsuit against the ministry for failing to report allegations of sex abuse in the 1980s and 1990s—including abuse perpetrated by church leaders’ immediate family members—and discouraging victims and their families from going to law enforcement. (The lawsuit was dismissed last year because of expired statutes of limitations and jurisdictional questions, but an appeal and criminal investigations are under way.) This spring, an exposé in The New Republicrevealed that Patrick Henry, the college of choice for evangelical homeschoolers, has covered up alleged campus rape and sexual assault, thanks largely to its victim-blaming emphasis on women’s purity. Allegations of similar practices soon surfaced against other Christian colleges, including Pensacola Christian College in Florida and Cedarville University in Ohio. A documentary released in February, No Place to Call Home, recounts the systematic sexual abuse of children in the 1980s at Jesus People USA, an evangelical commune in Chicago. The empire of Bill Gothard, founder of the fundamentalist Institute in Basic Life Principles, crumbled earlier this year after bloggers revealed dozens of sexual-harassment and molestation claims against him.

Common threads run through the stories: authoritarian settings where rule-following and obedience reign supreme; counseling techniques that emphasize victims’ own culpability; male leaders with few checks on their power; and, in the eyes of many Christians including Tchividjian, a perversion of the Bible to justify all three. “When you have this motley group of many denominations, this independent environment, and then this distortion of scripture, that’s an environment where abuse can flourish,” Tchividjian says. “But we’ve never been forced to deal with it on a Protestant-wide basis.”

This will be a challenge. The Protestant world includes tens of thousands of denominations, plus thousands more nondenominational churches, ministries, mission boards, and subcultures. Unlike the Catholic Church, there is no Vatican, no shared leadership connecting, say, Calvary Chapel’s 1,600 churches with the Southern Baptist Convention’s 46,000. No common standards apply but the authority of scripture, which is interpreted differently from church to church, school to school, mission to mission.

Even with its tightly controlled hierarchy, the Catholic Church has responded abysmally to sex abuse. “The Catholics have been forced through three decades of lawsuits to address this issue,” Tchividjian says. “The first decade, they gave it lip service, but after three decades, hundreds of millions of dollars lost, and publicity that devastated the Church, they were forced to begin addressing it. It’s my prayer that we’ll deal with it without being forced to.”

GACE’s mission grew out of a phone call that Tchividjian received from a reporter in the summer of 2003. Now in private practice, Tchividjian for eight years had prosecuted child sex-abuse cases as a district attorney in northeastern Florida. The reporter was looking for perspective on a story. In a Pentecostal church in Wisconsin, a convicted sex offender who’d been allowed to volunteer in Sunday school had allegedly abused two sisters, ages 8 and 12. When the girls told their parents, their father went to the pastor, who advised a sit-down with the volunteer. During this meeting, Tchividjian says, “the perp did what perps usually do: cry and ask for forgiveness, so happy he was caught.” The pastor said it sounded like repentance to him and that the accused could prove it by staying active in church life. Would that be enough to allow the father to forgive him, the pastor asked, and to forgo reporting the accused to “man’s authority”? The father said OK, if that’s what God wanted them to do. By the time the journalist called Tchividjian, six years later, the victims’ family had been asked to leave the church and the Sunday school volunteer was about to go on trial.

The pastor’s mishandling of the case touched a nerve with Tchividjian, who had seen similar dynamics play out many times. When he’d started working in the district attorney’s office, criminal cases had been distributed to prosecutors “like a deck of cards,” each prosecutor getting a mix from grand theft to molestation. Tchividjian saw how his colleagues shuddered at the sex-abuse cases and tended to plea them out quickly, as though the facts were too awful to bring to court. “It was almost too painful for them to grasp,” he says. When Tchividjian requested to take on all the district’s child sex-abuse cases, the other prosecutors happily obliged. In time, he established a sex-crimes unit that handled hundreds of cases over eight years.

All too often, he says, a pastor would come to court in a supportive role, almost always sitting on the perpetrator’s side of the aisle, not the victim’s. The Wisconsin case made Tchividjian think back on those pastors. He began to realize that he had a calling of his own: to teach the Protestant church to be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem. “I was encountering survivors who were absolutely eviscerated as a result of disclosing abuse in the Protestant church,” Tchividjian says, “and the long-term damage is sometimes more from how the church responded, or failed to respond, than the abuse itself.”

He contacted people he’d met over the years, advocates for abuse survivors he suspected were Christian, like Victor Vieth, former head of the Gundersen National Child Protection Training Center, and Diane Langberg, a Pennsylvania psychologist who specializes in trauma, including child abuse. Together, in 2004, they pulled together a board of lawyers, pastors, and therapists and formed GRACE. To their knowledge, this was the first group dedicated to educating Protestant churches about sex abuse and the ways in which religion can be used to sweep abuse under the rug.

They started speaking at conferences, urging Protestants to take child sex abuse seriously and support survivors rather than blame them. Tchividjian wrote a booklet for the World Reformed Fellowship, a cross-denominational network, on “Protecting Children from Abuse in the Church.” Today GRACE, which still has no full-time staffers, offers prevention seminars for churches, along with consultations when abuse allegations arise.

On a snowy Saturday afternoon in January, in a converted shopping plaza north of Philadelphia, Tchividjian stood before several hundred staffers and volunteers at Calvary Chapel of Central Bucks County. Though he’d be hard to pick out of a crowd, with his close-cropped brown hair, glasses, and blazer-and-khakis uniform of a Baptist college professor, when Tchividjian gets going—as his talks escalate from campus lecture to closing argument to full-on sermon—you can hear and see a flash of the fiery young Billy Graham.

As he always does, Tchividjian delivered a scary set of facts: If general statistics apply—a quarter of U.S. women and a sixth of men have been sexually abused before age 18—Calvary Chapel’s 1,000-member congregation might easily include 200 victims. But even that doesn’t get at the scope of the problem, he said. Congregations need to understand that churches are targets and havens for abusers. One study has found that 93 percent of admitted sex offenders describe themselves as religious. Offenders who report strong church ties abuse more often, with younger victims. That’s not because Christians are inherently more abusive, he said, but because they’re more vulnerable to those who are. Tchividjian repeated what one convicted sex abuser told clinical psychologist Anna Salter in her book Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders: “Church people”—always looking to see the best in people, to welcome converts, to save sinful souls—are “easy to fool.”

“When something does surface, all too often the church leadership quiets it down. Because they’re concerned about reputation: ‘This could harm the name of Jesus, so let’s just take care of it internally.’

Tchividjian rattled off ways in which Christians’ openness can allow abuse to go unchecked: Perpetrators tend to use scripture to coerce, justify, and silence. If they’re clergy, they will exploit their positions; if they’re laypeople, they will take advantage of a church hungry for volunteers and rely on the trust given to members of a church family. “The reason why offenders get away with what they do is because we have too many cultures of silence,” Tchividjian said. “When something does surface, all too often the church leadership quiets it down. Because they’re concerned about reputation: ‘This could harm the name of Jesus, so let’s just take care of it internally.’

“Jesus doesn’t need your reputation!” Tchividjian declared. “When somebody says that, it’s a lie. Keeping things in the dark and allowing souls to be destroyed by abuse, that shames the Gospel. Jesus is all about transparency.”

Calvary Chapel’s pastor John Hessler, who preaches frequently about his own imperfect past as someone who enjoyed the 1960s, wants his church to be vigilant. “In the old days,” Hessler says, “if you had a pulse or could fog a mirror, you could serve in children’s ministry.” By the time Calvary Chapel was founded 15 years ago, holding its first services in a barn, insurance companies had begun to require that churches conduct background checks on all volunteers. Hessler has made those checks increasingly rigorous, but even in the church’s young life, he has run into a number of troubling situations. There was the middle-aged congregant who would drift out of service to linger around the Sunday school and who angrily quit the church when asked to stay away from the kids. There was one of the congregation’s most straitlaced members, an eager would-be missionary, whose daughter alleged at 16 that he’d been molesting her for eight years. So when GRACE came to Philadelphia for a training session in 2013, Hessler sent several staff to attend. After the staff came back shaken, Hessler invited Tchividjian to address his church.

“It’s a balancing act,” Hessler says. “We don’t want to live skeptically. How do you live in such a way that you’re not suspecting that everybody is a dangerous person but are realistic enough to create boundaries so that a person who is a would-be perpetrator would find this too difficult an environment to operate in?”

It’s a challenge for Tchividjian, too. Years of investigating abuse cases—“we spend our days swimming in Christian cesspools,” he says—has left him hypervigilant. Megachurches with thousands of volunteers unnerve him, and after working on too many cases where girls were molested by someone in their best friend’s family, Tchividjian and his wife no longer let their daughters spend the night at friends’ houses, let alone church camps or “lock-in” church-basement sleepovers. “But for my wife,” he says, “I don’t trust anyone 100 percent—I’ve seen too much, too many scenarios. What I have to wrestle with is how do I deal with that? How do I balance that tension, between not trusting anyone and knowing that we have to function in life? You have to figure that out for yourself. But know this: Offenders exploit trust.”

 

II. The Missions 

In 2009, as invitations from church groups were multiplying, GRACE was tapped for a new kind of work. A Florida-based group, New Tribes Mission, was in trouble, as now-adult children of its missionaries were speaking out publicly about sex abuse at a New Tribes boarding school years earlier. Another phone call to Tchividjian, from out of the blue, led him from preaching prevention to once again investigating perps.

With more than 3,000 missionaries across 20 countries, New Tribes members have been described as the “Indiana Joneses of the missionary world.” Founded by a Los Angeles missionary in 1942, New Tribes sends its staff to remote locales, from rural West Africa to the Arctic, to evangelize communities that don’t have translations of the Bible.

Children of the missionaries are known in Christian shorthand as “MKs,” for missionary kids. About five years ago, a group of MKs whose parents were stationed in Senegal during the 1980s and 1990s started exchanging stories about the abuse they say they’d suffered. New Tribes had some 20 or 30 couples spread across Senegal, embedded with villagers they were trying to convert. New Tribes culture (though not formal policy) dictated that children, when they reached six or seven, were sent to a central mission boarding school so their parents could focus on evangelizing.

In Senegal, the school was in the city of Fanda. The children lived there under the supervision of untrained and usually reluctant New Tribes “dorm parents”—some of them missionaries who’d failed in the field—and saw their biological parents infrequently until graduation. The dorm parents and the missionaries were themselves overseen by field leaders, whose power and control, GRACE would later write in its investigative report, “paralleled that of a pastoral staff, a congregational board of Elders, a set of church Deacons, an employer, a local civil government, and a family chieftain, all in one.” Former staff members are more blunt. They describe field leaders as despotic.

The dorm parents—whom the MKs were taught to call aunts and uncles, and to see as representatives of God—were permitted to spank the children, and MKs describe spankings that were more like beatings, leaving children with welts after minor infractions like failing to sleep at naptime. Some say they were subjected to cruel and bizarre punishments like being forced to eat their own vomit. “The culture at school was one of fear,” says Bonnie Cheshire, a 34-year-old MK who was sent to Fanda at age 7.

In the mid-1980s, one of the dorm fathers, David Brooks, who oversaw the “Little Dorm” for the youngest children, allegedly began sexually abusing girls, including Cheshire. The missionary kids say he would come to their beds at night under the guise of comforting them and touch them inappropriately. They say he taught them to masturbate and he encouraged the girls to take pictures of one another in the shower and to play games that involved finding objects hidden in his or other girls’ bathing suits. Another dorm father allegedly punished girls by holding them down and kissing them. One allegedly groped a missionary kid’s breasts. The wife of a New Tribes missionary allegedly had sex with a male MK. In all, seven staff members at Fanda were accused of sexual abuse.

MKs’ letters home were censored, but when some of the girls told their parents what was occurring, and when parents told New Tribes field directors, they were told that they were gossiping and that their “slander” would “destroy another man’s ministry.” The kids say they were told that their complaints would condemn Africans to hell, because their parents would no longer be there to save souls. The parents of the MK who alleged statutory rape were sent back to New Tribes’ “boot camp” and eventually expelled from the field.

In 1988, Brooks left Senegal for a medical furlough. In late 1989, while he was on leave in the United States, additional allegations of abuse emerged from Fanda. Brooks made a partial confession to New Tribes administrators and was asked to resign the following spring. But New Tribes never notified U.S. or Senegalese authorities, and he was never prosecuted.

New Tribes’ Senegal mission exemplifies what Tchividjian and GRACE call “spiritual abuse”—wielding religious authority to persuade the victims that they were responsible for what happened to them.

New Tribes’ Senegal mission exemplifies what Tchividjian and GRACE call “spiritual abuse”—wielding religious authority to persuade the victims that they were responsible for what happened to them. They say such abuse is often the by-product of “legalism,” a catchall term for rigid, rule-oriented Christianity wherein the state of your soul is reflected by the length of your skirt or how you discipline your children. “Legalism” is often used by moderate Christians to decry the petty obsessions of fundamentalists. But the term also reflects a seminal theological debate within Protestantism, which was originally grounded in the conviction that Christians are saved “by grace alone”—that is, by their profession of faith and not by their actions. Abuse victims often describe the communities they came from as legalistic: isolated and authoritarian bodies that placed obedience and rules above all else, where no one was allowed to make small mistakes and where crimes had to be covered up to protect the cause of Christ.

New Tribes’ school in Fanda closed in 1997, officially because of security concerns as civil war raged within the country but unofficially because so many missionaries withdrew their children from the school that there were no longer enough students to maintain it. That same year, New Tribes conducted an ill-conceived internal investigation into the abuse claims. Mission officials sat in on missionary kids’ interviews, and in the end, all but one of the abuse victims declined to testify. Consequently, New Tribes identified just two perpetrators and cast the abuse that occurred at Fanda as an exception. New Tribes continued to operate schools in other countries it was evangelizing.

In 2008, Kari Mikitson, another Fanda MK who claims to have been abused, contacted New Tribes looking for answers: What had the mission known about the alleged abuses while they were being perpetrated, and what actions had it taken to ensure it would not happen again in other New Tribes schools? The mission board and lawyers met with Mikitson and Cheshire to offer an apology and ask for forgiveness. That wasn’t enough. Mikitson and other MKs founded a website, fandaeagles.com, to publicize the alleged abuse. The site has had 3.6 million views and shows up on Google searches right below the New Tribes Mission website. New Tribes subsequently conducted a second cursory review of the Fanda allegations. When the MKs kept up the pressure, the mission agreed to hire a neutral party to investigate.

The missionary kids were initially skeptical of yet another group promising a “Godly response,” as GRACE did. “This was the same terminology used against us by New Tribes to justify both the abuses and the cover-ups,” Mikitson says. “In evangelical-speak, ‘Godly response’ to abuse means using any means necessary to protect the institution’s bottom line, while piously pretending their real concern is protecting the name of Jesus.” But GRACE offered to fly Mikitson to Florida to observe one of its church trainings. She went prepared to “cross GRACE off the list” but instead heard such a staunch defense of victims’ rights that she became convinced that the group was right for the job.

GRACE took New Tribes’s commission with two conditions: that the investigation would be independent and that its final report would be provided to MKs and their families, with New Tribes only learning the results after GRACE’s investigators completed their confidential interviews.

Courtesy of Bonnie Cheshire

Bonnie Cheshire, right, outside the Fanda school

Their report wouldn’t lead to criminal charges, because the alleged abuses had taken place so long ago and outside the United States. Instead, GRACE aimed for another sort of reckoning. Tchividjian shies away from comparisons to truth and reconciliation commissions like South Africa’s, because of how the word “reconciliation” is often used in a Christian context: as an end point to be reached as expeditiously as possible, as code for cheap grace. True reconciliation, Tchividjian maintains, is the prerogative of the harmed; beyond that, it’s up to God. Instead, GRACE aimed for radical truth-telling. Its report would give New Tribes a factual accounting of how it failed the MKs so that it might confess, repent, and change its practices. “From day one,” Tchividjian says, “we thought the objective should be to demonstrate authentic repentance, to know where you’ve failed and to be transparent about it.”

GRACE board members, including theologians and pastors, volunteered to serve on the investigative team along with former prosecutors Tchividjian and Victor Vieth and psychologist Diane Langberg. They expected the process to take a few weeks. Instead, it lasted more than a year, culminating in a 66-page report. The abuse turned out to be far more widespread and severe than anything even a former prosecutor could have imagined. “We lost a little bit of our soul on that investigation,” Tchividjian says.

The investigators began by sending a confidential questionnaire to all the Fanda students from the 1980s and 1990s whom they could find. Fifty-six of 108 MKs responded (compared to a 3 percent rate when New Tribes tried), and GRACE’s team interviewed 21 in person or by phone, taking written statements from a dozen more. They also reviewed more than 1,000 pages of mission records and interviewed nearly 40 New Tribes staff who had been associated with the Fanda school.

Released in August 2010, the report identified more than 20 victims of alleged sexual abuse and documented dozens more physical and emotional abuse allegations. The victims of spiritual abuse at Fanda, GRACE concluded, “may well include almost the total school population.” In addition, missionary kids from other New Tribes boarding schools around the world had gotten in touch with GRACE, with some reports going back to the 1950s, and it recommended that New Tribes investigate those claims as thoroughly as those from Fanda. “We have seen what the devil does with silence and inaction,” the investigators concluded, “and we reject it as the sin that it is.”

The report offered a checklist of ways that New Tribes could demonstrate repentance: Establish a $1 million fund for victims’ and their families’ care; terminate 14 former dorm parents and supervisors; notify the abusers’ current churches; cooperate with future lawsuits; and, for those Fanda and New Tribes leaders who had ignored the abuse, require a penalty tithe of 10 percent of their paychecks for the victims’ fund.

Tchividjian and the other investigators spent a day going through the report with New Tribes’ board of directors. They prayed together, and New Tribes agreed on the spot to most of the recommendations. The mission’s CEO, Larry Brown, told the conservative Christian World magazine that the board was “ashamed” by what GRACE had found and acknowledged that Fanda’s authoritarian atmosphere and theology—specifically its culture of “legalism”—was to blame. He pledged to find out what had happened at the other schools.

“It seemed very clear to us that they got it,” Tchividjian says. But that was the immediate response. “The long-term response,” Tchividjian says, “was that New Tribes pulled back significantly from us. I think what was happening was other institutions were looking at them thinking, ‘Why in the world would you hire a group to do what they did? They dragged you through the mud.’”

New Tribes soon announced new investigations of alleged abuses in at least nine other schools in eight other countries—but this time, it wouldn’t be hiring GRACE. The mission hired a new coordinator to administer investigations under the project name IHART, or Independent Historical Abuse Review Team. New Tribes has told the missionary kids that whatever information the research turns up “will be stored at a law firm,” accessible only through “a legal process.” (New Tribes leaders declined repeated requests for comment on the investigations and to answer questions about whether it has implemented the recommendations in GRACE’s report.)

Rachel Steffen, a New Tribes missionary, says her two daughters were sexually abused by a dorm parent in the Philippines. Click below to read more of her story.

Rachel Steffen

“I think what happened with GRACE and the Fanda report is they took New Tribes by surprise, and it was a huge blow to them when it came out,” says Rachel Steffen, a former New Tribes missionary who says that her two daughters were sexually abused by a dorm parent in the Philippines. “I think they vowed that they would never lose control like that again.”

Nearly four years later, only one of New Tribes’ subsequent investigations has been completed, for a school in Brazil, and the results have not been released.

In 2011, as the initial promise of GRACE’s first investigation turned to disappointment, another embattled missionary group came calling. The Association of Baptists for World Evangelism (ABWE) was founded in 1927 by a splinter group called “Regular Baptists” to promote a “militant, missionary-minded, Biblically-separate haven of Fundamentalism.” Thanks in part to its insular culture, the group remains obscure even in conservative Christian circles—GRACE’s leaders had never heard of it—but ABWE is hardly marginal, with around 900 missionaries in 60 countries, backed by some 5,000 supporting churches. Here was a second chance to establish GRACE’s model of redemption in a group that was struggling with its past sins.

In 1988, one of ABWE’s missionary doctors in Bangladesh, Donn Ketcham, allegedly began sexually abusing and raping a 12-year-old missionary kid who asked not to be named; we’ll call her Julia. Ketcham, then in his late fifties, was a beloved figure with deep ties to ABWE; his Baptist-preacher father had helped found the General Association of Regular Baptists. He was charming and charismatic and alleged to have had serial affairs with younger female ABWE staff, more than once resulting in the woman’s dismissal.

Julia’s sister Diana, a 41-year-old pastor’s wife in Colorado who alleges that Ketcham groped her in Bangladesh, told the Prospect the story she and Julia shared with GRACE. In July 1989, the sisters were back home visiting an adult sister in Indiana when Julia, who hadn’t revealed what had occurred to anyone in the family, told their pastor what Ketcham had allegedly done. Instead of informing the family, Diana says, the pastor phoned ABWE headquarters in Pennsylvania. A staff psychologist, Russell Lloyd, flew to Indiana with Ketcham’s supervisor, Russell Ebersole, to determine whether Julia was telling the truth. Once convinced, Diana says, they compelled Julia, who was just shy of her 14th birthday, to sign a confession stating that she had “participated in a physical relationship” with the doctor and that what she did was “very wrong.” The ABWE officials then flew with Julia to Bangladesh. Julia’s parents were made aware of her “confession” but never told that their daughter had said she had been raped. Julia was made to ask her family’s forgiveness.

Lloyd and Ebersole confronted Ketcham, who left the mission field and returned to his home state of Michigan. ABWE sent a vague notice to the churches that sponsored Ketcham’s missionary work, stating that he’d been let go for “immoral conduct”—a phrase that most read as adultery. Ketcham established a family medical practice where local church members sent their children, and where he continued to work for more than 20 years. (ABWE did not reply to repeated interview requests for this story; attempts to reach Ketcham, now in his eighties, through his daughter yielded no response.)

By the time the family left Bangladesh in 1991 to get her better counseling, Diana says that the alleged rape had “forever altered her life.” The family wouldn’t hear her whole story for another 20 years.

Julia struggled with eating disorders and repeatedly attempted suicide. By the time the family left Bangladesh in 1991 to get her better counseling, Diana says that the alleged rape had “forever altered her life.” The family wouldn’t hear her whole story for another 20 years.

More than a decade after Julia’s family returned to the United States, stories about Ketcham began to surface. At least two MKs allege they were raped, and five others allege being groped under the pretext of unnecessary breast or pelvic examinations. Another six or seven missionary kids accuse Ketcham of drugging and abusing them. They remember being alone with Ketcham at the ABWE hospital or in his home and waking up in the morning feeling hazy and nauseated, unable to recall what happened the night before. At a 2002 ABWE reunion, a group of now-adult Bangladesh MKs confronted the mission’s new president, Michael Loftis, about Ketcham.

They went away expecting the mission to launch an investigation, or at least report Ketcham to the Michigan Board of Medicine. But ABWE offered only to help pay for victims’ counseling. Little happened until 2011, when Julia spoke out publicly. After finally telling her family about her alleged rape, she co-founded a website, BangladeshMKsSpeak, with another missionary kid, Susannah Beals Baker. The site detailed Julia’s story and published testimonies from other victims. In the first week it was live, BangladeshMKsSpeak attracted thousands of comments and scores of other stories.

ABWE was forced to respond. The mission reported Ketcham to Michigan’s medical board; within a year, he surrendered his license. On its website, ABWE published a confession of its own, acknowledging that Ketcham should have been fired years earlier and that the vagueness of its dismissal letter had allowed the doctor to conceal his alleged acts. The letter pleaded with the MKs to “please, please forgive us.” ABWE president Michael Loftis was let go. By mid-April, at the missionary kids’ urging, GRACE had a new job, investigating Ketcham and ABWE’s response.

Courtesy Tamara Rice

Julia (front center) and her sister Diana (right)

GRACE went to work in June 2011. It soon became clear, however, that ABWE was not enthusiastic about being investigated. The mission failed to produce documents GRACE requested, Tchividjian says, and in early 2012, ABWE began a separate investigation of all its missions. The result was a brief website notice stating that a handful of abuse cases had been confirmed, that unnamed offenders had been identified, and that none was still working in the field. Some allegations were not reviewed, ABWE said, because “the victims did not consent to pursuing an investigation.” While GRACE’s investigation continued, Diana says the mission tried to undermine it: ABWE leaders offered compensation for Julia’s treatment in what struck the family as an attempt to buy her future silence. They said no.

In January 2013, after more than 100 interviews, GRACE announced, in a routine update on its website, that its investigation was nearly complete. Three weeks later, ABWE fired GRACE, alleging that the investigation was “fatally flawed” and “would not find the truth.” For survivors and their families, this was devastating news; it meant, under the terms of its contract with the mission, that GRACE’s report could not be released.

The public criticism of GRACE put its fledgling reputation on the line. ABWE claimed that the missionary kids’ testimony was tainted by their exposure to one another; that the investigators weren’t using the evidentiary standards of a courtroom and had not recorded the interviews; and that eight interviewees had complained that GRACE had asked leading questions and excluded positive recollections about ABWE from their interview summaries. ABWE claimed that one unnamed interviewee said she felt “revictimized” by GRACE.

Tchividjian and his fellow investigators published a 15-page, point-by-point rebuttal on GRACE’s website. Their process wasn’t like a courtroom’s, they said, because this wasn’t a legal proceeding. The investigators recorded some testimonies, but not all, because they allowed interviewees to ask that they not be tape-recorded for fear of reprisal from ABWE. There were no court-grade transcripts because hiring court reporters would be exorbitantly expensive, and the mission had balked at paying even a fraction of previous transcription costs. GRACE pointed out that all interviewees, both survivors and mission staff, had been given drafts of their transcripts and asked to correct them however they saw fit. Fond memories of the Bangladesh mission, the investigators noted, were not what they’d been hired to find. “When placed in the context of ABWE’s conduct over the past 20 months,” GRACE concluded, the termination “strongly suggests ABWE is unwilling to have itself investigated unless the investigation is within your control.”

ABWE replaced GRACE with Professional Investigators International (Pii), which said it was conducting not an investigation but “research” into the Bangladesh hospital where Ketcham had worked. Pii, which is also handling at least one of the New Tribes investigations, was founded by a Mormon couple, one of whom runs an image–consulting firm. The company’s website emphasizes that “the client suggests the scope of work initially.” In a brief statement responding to questions from the Prospect, Pii CEO Linda Davis characterized its work for ABWE and New Tribes as “totally independent investigations following investigative procedures, very thorough in nature.” Beyond that, she had no comment.

Courtesy Tamara Rice

A teenage Tamara Rice on a train in Bangladesh, where she alleges she was abused by missionary doctor Donn Ketcham.

In a section for frequently asked questions on its website, ABWE promises that in its “desire for transparency,” it “intends to publicly release the unedited report, when it is completed.” The Bangladesh missionary kids are dubious. When Pii contacted Tamara Rice, an MK, for an interview last November, she says the investigators refused to say how her answers would be used or whether her identity would be kept confidential. She, like other MKs, has refused to speak with the new investigators under those conditions.

“ABWE accused GRACE of building a case against them in their investigation,” Rice says. “I feel there’s a good chance that what ABWE is doing now is building a defense case against future lawsuits—that really these interviews are lining the walls of their lawyers’ office.”

III. The Fortress

By 2013, a decade after Tchividjian felt called to spread the word, sex abuse had become a topic that Protestants could no longer ignore. Since 2004, GRACE had trained more than 150 churches and ministries, consulted with dozens more on prevention policies, and helped implement abuse-awareness programs at six Christian colleges. Despite the disappointments, the New Tribes and ABWE investigations had shed new light on the problem. So had a fast-growing network of survivor websites publishing accounts of abuse.

Two major evangelical foundations, children’s mission ministry OneHope and relief organization Samaritan’s Purse (run by Tchividjian’s controversial uncle, Franklin Graham), had asked GRACE to help them develop and implement abuse-prevention and response policies. Tchividjian, Langberg, and others on the GRACE board were regulars on Christian media. The Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest Protestant body, had passed a resolution calling on member churches to report suspicions or allegations of sexual abuse to law enforcement. Then as the ABWE investigation was unraveling, Bob Jones University turned to GRACE.

It appeared that the school was ready to open itself to change. Bob Jones revised its sex-abuse policies, held its first campus-wide awareness training, and sent a sizable delegation to a GRACE conference. Meanwhile, alumni and staff members were telling their stories to GRACE.

While Tchividjian would not comment about their ongoing investigation, theProspect interviewed eight Bob Jones alumni who say they’ve given testimony. Their accounts offer a glimpse of what GRACE is likely to find: a cloistered atmosphere in which abuse victims have been discouraged from coming forward, and in which those who do are routinely blamed and discouraged from reporting it to family members and police.

Katie Landry, now 31, left her homeschooling Mennonite family in Ohio and matriculated at Bob Jones when she was 19, two weeks after she says she’d been raped by a co-worker back home. “When that happened to me,” she says, “I didn’t have the word rape in my vocabulary. I knew that there was a word called fornication, when an unmarried person has sex, and I knew there was adultery, when a married person has sex outside marriage. But there wasn’t anything in my life that said sometimes sex happens when you don’t want it and you didn’t ask for it.”

Erin Burchwell, who grew up on the Bob Jones campus, was sexually assaulted by a Bob Jones “preacher boy.” When she revealed this to Dean Jim Berg, she says Berg asked her what she had been wearing. Click on the image below to read more of her story.

Erin Burchwell

Landry acted out her freshman year, which in the context of Bob Jones meant she left campus without permission to get pizza with a few friends. She says she was suspended for a semester and came back to intensive disciplinary counseling. When she finally told her counselor what had happened, she was taken to see Jim Berg, a powerful campus figure who was Bob Jones’s dean of students for nearly three decades, from 1981 to 2010. Landry says she told Berg how she’d struggled since the rape to understand where God had been and why He hadn’t intervened.

“I was hoping he’d say that he’d help me get help, help me tell my parents, maybe even help me call the police,” Landry says. “And I was hoping that he’d tell me it wasn’t my fault.” Instead, she says Berg’s first response was to ask whether she’d been drinking or smoking pot the day she was raped. He then suggested, she says, that her rape had a spiritual root. “He said that under every sin is another sin; that there is a sin in your life that caused your rape, and we have to find out what that sin was,” Landry says.

She recalls running out of Berg’s office, terrified she’d be expelled. Landry says that neither Berg, who now teaches counseling, nor the dorm counselor she’d first told ever checked back with her. At the end of the next semester, Landry withdrew from Bob Jones, returned home to Ohio, and married a childhood friend, reasoning that no other man would ever love her. The marriage was short-lived. For three years, Landry never told anyone else about her rape, and she didn’t again seek treatment for another five years. “I already had a plate full of shame when I walked into Dr. Berg’s office,” she says, “and he put more shame on that, more than I could bear.”

When Camille Lewis was a student at Bob Jones in the late 1980s, a roommate told her that her father had molested her for years. Lewis urged her to talk to someone and arranged an appointment with Dean Berg. He didn’t tell the roommate that it was her fault, Lewis says, but he did warn her not to go to the police. Over time, Lewis began to detect a pattern. She became a speech and rhetoric professor at Bob Jones, where she worked from 1990 to 2007, and says that during her two decades at the school, 11 other women told her they had been sexually assaulted, raped, or molested—8 on campus, and 3 off. She knew others, she says, who were sexually harassed as students or employees. But when they sought help from the school, Lewis says, the response was the same as the one her roommate and Landry had received. “The metaphor they used in the olden days was a ‘show window,’ that they were setting up a show window to sell God and didn’t want anything marring it,” she says. “That’s why it’s perfect for predators, because they just hide behind Bob Jones’s silence. It’s built into the system.”

Longtime Dean of Students Jim Berg has been accused of silencing and shaming abuse victims at the school.

Cathy Harris came to Bob Jones’s nursing school in the mid-1990s. She says she was already struggling with PTSD from being abused as a child. Dean Berg counseled her not to take medication, she says, and he suggested she was complicit in her abuse. After she attempted suicide in 1996, Harris says, Berg sent her expulsion letter to the hospital. Two other former students who sought counseling for childhood physical or sexual abuse told the Prospectthey were expelled or “asked not to return” when university staff became aware of psychological problems or self-harming behaviors that may have stemmed from abuse; two of these cases occurred within the past four years.

Jeffrey Hoffman, who would later help found the LGBT alumni group BJUnity, grew up in the Bob Jones system in the 1970s and 1980s. Hoffman alleges he was molested as a young boy at the Bob Jones Academy by a university faculty member who came into his shower stall in a gym at a nearby Bob Jones–affiliated church. Hoffman says his molester offered to counsel him to overcome his same-sex attraction in what seemed both a come-on and a threat. Hoffman did not tell anyone what had occurred until years later, afraid he wouldn’t be believed.

On three occasions, the Prospect requested interviews with Bob Jones leadership—specifically requesting to speak to Berg and President Stephen Jones—but was refused. “Bob Jones University will not participate in an interview,” replied university spokesperson Randy Page, adding, “We do not want BJU to be mentioned in the profile you are writing about GRACE.” (Shortly before press time, Page sent a link to the university’s online statements about GRACE.)

By this January, when they announced that the final report would likely be ready for release in March, GRACE’s investigators had conducted more than 100 interviews. Then days before GRACE was set to conduct its final interviews, school administrators sent it a termination notice. The letter was full of praise and thanks for GRACE’s work but said that changes at the university—Stephen Jones had just announced that he would retire in the spring—had convinced the institution to sever the contract. The university asked to meet with GRACE as soon as possible to draw up a new contract, writing, “We think that it is in the best public interest of both GRACE and BJU to meet and reach a new agreement that will enable us to accomplish our objectives.” The letter specified no reason for firing GRACE and gave no indication of what new terms the school wanted to negotiate.

GRACE e-mailed the interviewees to let them know what had happened. Then it posted the termination notice online, and the story went viral. When the relatively small and separatist ABWE had fired GRACE, few people outside the worlds of fundamentalism and conservative Christianity knew or paid attention. But this was Bob Jones University, America’s fortress of fundamentalism. The story was reported in The New York Times and The Washington Post, and the firing was condemned on websites from the liberal Wonkette to The American Conservative. “Bob Jones University will not get away with this cowardly move—thank God!” wrote American Conservativecolumnist Rod Dreher, who derided the school’s decision as “a textbook example of institutional cover-up.”

Bob Jones had long grown accustomed to dismissing its secular critics and ignoring its alumni “detractors”; the school has endured decades of bad press and protests over policies like the ban on interracial dating. But officials seemed unprepared for the fury of their loyalists, who flooded the school’s Facebook page with denunciations and calls to reinstate GRACE. Rumors proliferated online: that Stephen Jones’s hand had been forced by a more conservative board; that a recent South Carolina Supreme Court ruling, which expanded institutional responsibility for sex abuse, could mean that GRACE’s findings would expose the school to lawsuits; that certain stories had been so horrible the school felt it had to suppress them.

In a speech to students, Stephen Jones offered only a vague explanation, saying that GRACE had “diverged from our original understanding.” The termination, he said, was a means to sit down with the GRACE team and get the process back on track. Bob Jones, he insisted, was committed to finishing the investigation, either with GRACE or another group. More quietly, some people associated with the school’s leadership wrote on social media that GRACE had been “heavy-handed” with victims and that there may have been breaches in victim confidentiality. However, the eight Bob Jones alumni or former staff with whom the Prospect spoke said the process had been positive—“the best I’ve ever been treated by Christians,” in Cathy Harris’s words.

For those who had participated in the GRACE investigation, the termination sparked more than outrage. Three witnesses told the Prospect that the move had thrown them into depression or panic attacks; one said she had contemplated suicide. Two others worried that it was their testimony that had caused the trouble when Bob Jones’s leaders somehow got wind of it. “I wanted so badly for this to come out, but not because I hate Bob Jones,” Katie Landry says. She expects that her nieces and nephews will one day attend the school. “If something happens to them, and they seek help, I want them to get actual help,” she says, “and not more shame.”

In February 25, a month after firing its investigators, Bob Jones announced an about-face. The university was rehiring GRACE under its original contract. In subsequent statements on its website, school leaders told survivors they were sorry for “surprising” them with what they now described not as a termination but a “temporary suspension.”

It’s uncertain when GRACE will issue its report. In early April, the group said it had been contacted by new complainants after Bob Jones’s firing and rehiring; the group now expected to finish new interviews and begin writing up findings in early May.

This much is clear: The findings will have implications far beyond Greenville. Just as GRACE’s New Tribes report sparked calls for investigations at nine other New Tribes schools, so too does each new headline story—about Patrick Henry’s poor handling of campus sexual assault, about Sovereign Grace Ministries’ alleged culture of abuse—prompt more survivors to come forward, from myriad ministries and churches. Even if all implicated institutions decided to trust GRACE to investigate them, the workload would be far more than the group could handle.

That’s one reason Tchividjian wants to establish a National Grace Center at a Christian college, possibly California’s Pepperdine University, where he says conversations have been ongoing for months. The center would not only expand GRACE’s capacities but also equip a small army of investigators to take on the work GRACE cannot do. Tchividjian also envisions the Grace Center serving as a resource for churches and groups and for prosecutors working on cases involving religion. It would launch a research institute producing child-advocacy and abuse-awareness curricula for seminary students, and a training center to educate future church leaders on prevention. “I want the church to become one of the safest places for children and abuse survivors,” Tchividjian says, “and sadly today, it’s one of the least-safe places.”

Complicating that objective and underlying the tensions that have surfaced in GRACE’s investigations is the long and sometimes bitter split between fundamentalists and evangelicals. Some abuse survivors see speaking out as a step in their religious evolution, moving from rule-based forms of Christianity to “grace-oriented” churches. Many of GRACE’s supporters see the group’s work as a challenge to fundamentalism’s legalistic culture. That could be a recurring problem with the investigations: Fundamentalist institutions may view GRACE’s work as rooted in a core theological difference, as yet another example of evangelicals criticizing their estranged cousins.

Tchividjian rejects that critique. “I don’t like terms like ‘evangelical’ and ‘fundamentalist,’” he says. “I’m not even sure I know what they mean.” The mishandling of sex abuse stems less from theology, he says, than from an authoritarianism that can develop in any culture, elevating leaders beyond accountability, leaving victims’ rights to their whim, and sidelining critics who challenge their rule. He points to the abuses that allegedly took place at Jesus People USA—the Chicago-area evangelical commune, which was no bastion of stringent rules—as an example. “Whether we label it fundamentalist or evangelical, I’ve seen it span the spectrum,” he says. “I never thought of New Tribes as fundamentalist. But I’d say there was that concentration of authority, and often that concentration morphs into legalism.” But Tchividjian says GRACE doesn’t exist to challenge legalism, either. “Our job is not to go and assess the theology of the groups we’ve been asked to investigate. Our job is to investigate the alleged abuse and, obviously, as part of that investigation, you assess the culture and assess whether that culture plays at least a part of the problem in determining whether the abuse is systemic. But I’d never say our mission or role is to address legalism.”

However, the New Tribes report explicitly criticized the mission’s legalism, as did New Tribes leaders themselves in their initial mea culpa. Tchividjian consistently argues that a less legalistic culture would help groups deal with the sins of their past. “It would mean a church is OK with being transparent, and acknowledging failure,” Tchividjian says. “As a Christian, I tell institutions, your value and your reputation aren’t based on your accomplishments. If it is what you’ve communicated to the world through the gospel, your reputation has been secured for you by Christ. That should liberate you to be transparent, to acknowledge failure.”

To survivors, that logic is clear. “GRACE is not hired by the weak, the self-protective, the blasphemous institutions who invoke the name of Jesus in their cover-ups,” says Kari Mikitson, founder of Fanda Eagles. “There are very few Christian organizations out there who want the truth at all costs. If you as an organization are not brave enough to retain GRACE when your survivors request them, then you are a disgrace. And you aren’t fooling anyone—you are hiding skeletons.”

That’s a hard case to make to churches and missions facing lawsuits and public scrutiny. “One of the dynamics of any institution is to survive, to protect itself,” Diane Langberg says. There is no question that GRACE poses risks to the institutions that hire it for investigations. The publication of GRACE’s findings—the first gesture of repentance—ensures that not only will damaging accounts appear in the media but that some supporters and donors will flee.

Over the next few years and decades, Protestant institutions of every kind—fundamentalist, evangelical, and mainline—will be increasingly faced with a stark choice. One option is to follow the example set by the Catholic Church more than a decade ago: Fight back fiercely, not giving an inch when it comes to admitting you may have been wrong. Everyone knows how well that has worked. The other option is represented, thus far, by GRACE alone: Churches, schools, and groups can heed Tchividjian’s call to make themselves vulnerable, to admit what they’ve done wrong, and—hardest of all—to allow that truth to come to light.

As Bob Jones University learned this February, allegations are bound to become public no matter what the institution does. The findings of GRACE’s report will make news, and the news will be ugly. But if the school forthrightly confronts the findings and pursues repentance and reform, it could not only save itself but revive itself. Working with GRACE has given the university an opportunity to transform its national reputation as the quintessence of all that is pinched and patriarchal about fundamentalist Christianity. That would make Bob Jones a different kind of model—a positive one for Protestants hoping to avoid the reputational devastation the Catholic Church is still bringing down on itself.

GRACE’s evangelical truth commission could also help ease the financial hits to come. Most abuse survivors, Tchividjian says, don’t want a settlement. But when they are confronted with institutions that lawyer up at the first hint of allegations, and that refuse even small gestures of acknowledgment or repentance, lawsuits often result. “Usually the lawyers are the last offices they go to,” he says.

Even so, following GRACE’s path will be painful. That is what’s so audacious—sometimes to the point of being unrealistic—about it. GRACE is challenging Christian institutions to live up to their teachings, to “expend themselves, even to the point of death, to demonstrate love for a very hurt soul,” as Tchividjian says.

“If you think about it in the Christian context,” he continues, “God did his most powerful work when Jesus, his son, was at his most transparent and vulnerable, on the cross. So why do we approach all these things differently?

“If you think about it in the Christian context,” he continues, “God did his most powerful work when Jesus, his son, was at his most transparent and vulnerable, on the cross. So why do we approach all these things differently?If I’m a Christian, why am I not driven by the fact that if we mess up as an institution, then when we’re most transparent and vulnerable, that’s when God can do his most powerful work? I’ve seen that in churches: When they do respond that way, it’s pretty powerful what results in the lives of survivors.”

There’s a quixotic quality to Tchividjian’s crusade. Surely he’s tilting at windmills to think powerful institutions, which reap hundreds of millions in donations and employ thousands of Christians—an entire faith-based economy—will willingly jeopardize their own survival. But the persistence of Tchividjian and GRACE is itself a statement of deep faith: the belief that churches, schools, and missions will imperil their existence for the sake of doing right—radical sacrifice through radical truth. So far, it still amounts to faith in things unseen. But whether in Cape Town, or as Tchividjian might say, on Calvary, such things have manifested before.

print

,

  • Hmmm… There is no doubt that such improprieties can happen in ALL denominations ranging from sexual abuse by clergy to their being involved in embezzlement of church funds, drunkenness, wife and child abuse, clergy and porn, etc. The question is what to do with such offenders. From what I have observed, whenever an Evangelical/Protestant minister is caught in such immoral conduct, the offender is terminated from the clerical position by action of the church board of directors. The offending cleric is also usually reported to the local authorities for prosecution. Yes, this unfortunately affects many churches today.
    Now, truth be told: As mentioned, Protestant churches will take steps to fire a preacher from his position once such shenanigans come to light. This had not been the case for many years in the Roman Catholic Church situations. Reportedly, pedophile priests have been transferred to a new parish where, at times, the “sins of the father” continue. Also, “hush money” has reportedly been paid to the victims in order to keep things quiet. Only in recent years, has the Catholic Church begun to take action because of the widespread publicity that has been reported by the media whereas before things were kept under wraps. It has been reported that the Catholic Church has paid out millions of dollars in settlements because of the abusive priests, some who the church had known about for several years. Are these priests still active?
    The point is this: ALL clergy from any denomination should be held to the highest standards of accountability not just to their congregation but most important to Almighty God whom they have “vowed” to represent. Once any cleric crosses the line into immorality they have ONE who will Judge them for their actions and it is the immediate responsibility of the congregation to call for their resignation (defrocking) and have them barred from further representation as a member of the clergy.

    • Stephen Dalton

      Mike, if you think it’s standard operating procedure for Protestants to righteously defrock a sexually erring preacher, you’re in for a rude awaking. I have a friend who was raised by a father who sexually abused her. Her daddy was a Baptist minister. She has told me that there are networks of Baptist clergymen involved in sexual and other kinds of misconduct who work together to help each other to cover their sorry behinds. That includes moving an in trouble preacher to another church if things get too hot where he’s at now. As for that nonsense that they will fire such a preacher when misconduct comes to light, bullfeathers! Have you ever heard of Jack Hyles? It was known for years he was carrying on with his secretary, and his church did nothing about it. So don’t be so damned self righteous about your Protestant churches. This article, and the real stories from the media, shows it’s not standard operating procedure to fire and turn over a criminal preacher.

      • Stephen, thank you for your comments. I stated that it is unfortunate that these things happen and that they happen in ALL denominations. It is a fact that many Protestant churches have indeed fired their ministers when their misconduct has been exposed. Sure, there are others as given in your example, but then one must wonder about how many of those churches are led by self-serving leaders who will allow such immorality to continue without any action being taken. The point that I have made and still remains that it is still the immediate responsibility of the congregation to call for the resignation of ANY member of the clergy who is involved in such immoral behavior. When no action is taken by the church to replace an offending cleric then it is time for the congregants to question whether they are attending a church that is really conformed to the Word of God or is more conformed the World.
        It is Biblical procedure to expose, admonish and remove any church leader who claims to be a “servant of God”. Again, thank you, Stephen, for your comments. 🙂

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Mike, the reason Stephen responded in the manner he did is because of your statement “from what I have observed, whenever an Evangelical/Protestant minister is caught in such immoral conduct, the offender is terminated..”, This comes across as a self-serving comment because you are stating unequivocably that they are always terminated. You or anyone else has no way of knowing of the cases where the offenses have been kept quiet, or when they have been discovered that they have not been terminated. Further, most non-denominational ministers own their own church and have the final say in any decision.

          • Hi Julie. Yes, you are right in that this perspective is from what “I have observed” – because it is true. I have personally attended some Protestant churches where the ministers were involved in improprieties, whether sexual misconduct or misappropriation of church funds for their own personal use, etc. In the cases that I observed, the church directors were forthright in taking action and firing the culprits. I had also seen news reports of Protestant ministers being involved in such alleged misconduct and read that their churches banned them from the ministry. In the church cases such as what Stephen referred to, these are the kind of churches that operate in fear of speaking up and/or where the board of directors just “looks the other way” and still allows the minister to remain. These are the cases that are “unobservable” to one who does not attend such a church. I will reiterate that it is the immediate responsibility of the congregation to expose any member of the clergy who is involved in these shenanigans and to leave that church if nothing is done about it. If congregants remain, they will be seen as being complicit to the actions of the offending clergy member and in affect are as much to blame for allowing this to continue in their church. Thanks, Julie, good to hear from you again. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            What I see missing from all the posts is the failure to recognize the pervasiveness of sexual immorality in this country. The timing of the ‘sexual revolution’, and women burning their bras, almost parallels the rise of sexual immorality in both clergy and lay people alike. Not too many of us have been exactly sterling. My little town had a minister that embezzled funds, they got rid of him, but he was still ‘in the pool’ to serve other congregations within that denomination.
            Good to hear from you again, too.

          • Quote: “What I see missing from all the posts is the failure to recognize the pervasiveness of sexual immorality in this country”

            Exactly, Julie, and this one cannot be blamed on George Bush! lol

            For years, the Christian church has spoken out against “Hollywood” (movie and TV industry) for its influential role in facilitating the “sexual revolution”. Gone are the days of “Ozzie and Harriet,” “My Three Sons,” “Lassie,” “Rin Tin Tin,” etc. Guess I just revealed the era I grew up in. lol

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It’s all true. Not even kid’s cartoons are clean, very few are allowed for my grandkids to watch, and I hold a time allowed even at that.
            I’m surprised the left hasn’t laid this on W’s back, give them time, they will.
            The problem we’ve had, that is, the Christians, for the most part, caved in to the fight. In the 1930’s almost every Christian denomination said NO WAY to legalizing artificial birth control and now a lot of them actually promote BC for their newly married. We all have planks in our own eyes that need removed. If we could unite, the world would have to contend with us, instead of us contending with the world.

          • Dear Julie, if your wish could come true about all Christians uniting there would definitely be a change in this world and our nation. This is something that God suggested a long time ago. But, do many of our church leaders really pay attention to God anymore?

            Here is the reminder: “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land…” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

            This is what we as individual Christians and as the collective body of Believers in Christ must do if we want to see that change for our nation. But, as you stated, ” The problem we’ve had, that is, the Christians, for the most part, caved in to the fight.”
            This is a spiritual battle we are in, Julie, and no matter how ugly things get in this world, we know that our Victory is sealed through our faith in Christ. That’s pretty cool. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            A nebulous reuniting of the Christian world will not be a light to the world. It needs to be real and substantial in order to be something that the world can see. We have a lot of repenting to do, and indeed our victory is sealed in faith lived out according to the guidelines Jesus left us.

          • Yes, Julie, one real and substantial act that the world could see would be when those who profess to be followers of Christ actually exemplify His Love for one another. This is what Jesus commanded of His followers. The unfortunate reality is that this is not seen by the world because of the divisiveness that pits one denomination against another.
            This is what we must live out as part of our faith:

            “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

            (John 13:34-35) 🙂

          • Woody

            Yah, I burned my bra.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The Supreme Court’s “demotion” of the Ten Commandments, though carved in stone above their heads, has much to do with the deterioration of moral order in society at large.
            When the Soviet Academy of Sciences (!) noted moral deterioration in that empire, in the 1980s, they set up a project to teach moral values in the schools. The project was a concerted effort to stabilize society. The Academy saw that society needed Moral Foundations — the Ten Commandments! Who could teach it? They called in the Russian Orthodox clergy to teach in all the schools! (This is documented.)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            At least the Soviet empire saw the decline in morality as something bad for society and did something concrete about it. More than anyone can say of the USA!

          • Woody

            Missed your wisdom, Father. Welcome back…

          • Woody

            Did you see the report on the news today that Harvard is allowing satanist’s to steal “Consecrated Wafers of Our Lord’s Body and Blood” from local Catholic Churches and taking them to a satanic church which is next door to Harvard where they conduct a “black mass”,desecrating Jesus.

            Not that this hasn’t been going on for centuries; and I find it strange but they are only “affirming” where Jesus lives. And satan should know being his mortal enemy.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No I didn’t, I will look it up. The sheer fact that avowed Satanists have “Black Mass” as desecration of Jesus ought to be some kind of proof that the true Mass is effective, and that the consecrated bread is indeed his flesh. Did not Judas have a Black Mass?
            John 13:27 “After he took the morsel, Satan entered him.”, fulfillment of Psalm 41:10 “Even my trusted friend who ate my bread has raised his heel against me.”

          • Woody

            You hit right on! Even satan knows where Jesus True Church is, but the action is nothing to be happy about is it?
            I think I am the only person I know feeling sorry for him–trying to return the 30 pcs of silver but Jews cannot accept “death money; but only God can and has judged him; we were always told God is so merciful even a last second perfect sorrow can save one–I love being a Catholic.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why don’t the Satanists steal communion bread from protestant churches? Why don’t they go to Mardel’s and buy a bag or communion bread-because they know the difference. Former Satanists explain how they can discern one from the other. The hosts that have been consecrated exude a deep sense of “hate” towards them.

          • H2o2Bill

            I was not going to post here anymore but this is the most bizarre logic I think I have come across in a long time. Your trying to justify the mass of the RCC by making a claim of a testimony given by Satanist? Here I will relate to the article, many serious men of God these days will only give open door counsel sessions. Or perhaps with their own wives in the room or other third parties. Serious men of God will go out of their way to show nothing is going on that should not be going on. I hope Walid does a article about the Pope and Kenneth Copeland going back and forth WOW. Walid the combination burrito is looking better.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you not see the connection to when Satan entered Judas? At the Last Supper, when Jesus’ words of the Bread of Life discourse came to fruition.
            Do you not see when Jesus knew who it was that would betray Him? It was in John 6, the bread of life discourse when Jesus is repeatedly telling everybody that his flesh is real food and his blood is real drink. Do you think a piece of bread allowed Satan to enter, or, was it indeed what the Word that spoke all of creation into existence, said it was: “This IS my body”. Read Paul’s letter regarding the Lord’s Supper. They were not to take communion unworthily, in fact he tells them that is why some of them are sick and dying. It is an abomination to take real communion in a state of sin. I realize you don’t think it is Jesus’ flesh even though he said unequivocably that it is. Jesus is THE WORD. Isaiah 55 tell us that His word does not return to Him void. Malachi prophesies of the gentiles offering a sacrifice that God the father would accept.
            Satan is a lot smarter than you are giving him credit for.

          • Woody

            As usual very good, Julie, and how about “on the road to Emmaus when the Apostles did not even recognize Jesus until He gave them His Body and Blood at the table–and then they recognized Him.” Yes, the scales dropped from their eyes.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’m writing a defense of the Eucharist and am including 3 items from the Emmaus story, 1. They did not recognize him until He broke bread – Jesus assumes forms of ordinary things. He appeared as a gardener (Adam) to Mary Magdalene.
            2. The Phrase “And their eyes were opened” hearkens back the Garden of Eden “And their eyes were opened”- ” after they had eaten for the forbidden tree. (did they really eat, or, was it just a “spiritual” eating like protestants think) 3. We are told that “He went in to stay with them”. But, then it says that He vanished from their sight. Did Jesus fail to stay with them? Nope. He stayed with them in the Bread.

          • Woody

            As a priest said in his recent comments: Jesus did not want to go–(but He had to do the Will of the Father) he wanted to stay with us–so He did both–He left us, (the Cross) and He stayed (the Eucharist) Only God can do both…
            God Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Please Father, let this cup pass from me. But not mine will, but thine will be done.

          • Woody

            Julie, neat verses because they show how the first “Protesters” rejected the Word of Jesus and walked away from His when He had given them the “Eucharist.” (His Body and Blood) Basically they call Him a “Liar.”

            AND at the same time show the first “Catholics” (People of the Way)

            Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath
            everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I
            will give for the life of the world.

            52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whosoeateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead:
            he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

            59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

            THE FIRST PROTESTERS: (VERSUS CATHOLICS (PEOPLE OF THE WAY)

            Many Disciples Turn Away

            (Matthew
            8:18-22; Luke 9:57-62; Luke 14:25-33)

            60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

            PROOF THAT THE CROWD TOOK HIM “LITERALLY.”

            61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What
            and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said,
            Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

            THE FIRST CATHOLICS

            Peter’s Confession of Faith

            (Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20)

            66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter
            answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus
            answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

            Poor Bill downplays the devil’s ” ntelligence…”

            71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

            “…ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL…” Just more proof that he is
            underestimating satan’ soldiers..

            It is no accident that Bill left this site; and no accident that he has come back because Truth is a powerful thing and is tugging at his conscience…

            (Fr Grieshal’s book “There are no such things as Accidents.”

            I also wonder why Bill does not know that Catholics have been receiving “Jesus” Body and Blood at every Mass for over 2000 years–I myself at daily Mass for 50+ years (how wonderful the ride has been)

            God Bless all here (an Irish Blessing in Taverns as they enter)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Being part Irish, thanks! The protestants have to divorce the implications of this text, those of The Last Supper, the OT manna “bread from heaven”, as Paul declared “supernatural food and drink”, or else their doctrine is proven wrong. Onward they charge..

          • Woody

            MAY 9, 2014″The Eucharist is the bread that gives strength… It is at once the most eloquent proof of His love and the most powerful means of fostering His love in us. He gives Himself every day so that our hearts as burning coals may set afire the hearts of the faithful.”
            — St. Damien of Molokai

            The Leper Priest – born 1840
            Boy he sure had Holy Communion right on the mark…

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Emmaus, the actual site, Ha-Motzah, is named in Joshua 18:27 among the allotment of the Tribe of Benjamin. It is a GARDEN spot, with a spring of its own, from which modern Jerusalem gets some of its municipal water. In Temple times, it was tax-exempt because it supplied the green things used in the Temple, especially at Tabernacles (at the end of Summer, before the Rainy Season begins). It is a kind of “Eden”, if you will. The two “walking with (the risen) JESUS” — are walking with GOD. They have (as yet unwittingly) been restored to a sort of Paradisical state. We are all *meant* to walk with God, daily. [No wonder, then, that the Tomb was in a Garden, where Jesus seemed to be “the Gardener.” the “Second Adam” of the New Creation.]

            Archaeology reveals it was a wealthy village, perhaps Levitical, of “Observant Jews” before the Temple fell. This may say something about St Cleopas. Was he among the many priests who were followers of the Way? [cf. Acts 6:7] He was clearly St Luke’s source. Titus settled his officers there, a reward for their victory in 70AD, the nicest of Jerusalem’s suburbs, so the Latin name, Colonia, supplanted the old Hebrew name, until modern time, when “Motzah” was restored.

            A portion of the Roman road remains, just east of Ha-Motzah, known as “ha-Ma’aleh Roma’im: – The Ascent of the Romans. It is a zig-zag, up a very steep ravine, past a modern cemetery. However, the cemetery is encroaching on this historic Road. (Christians need to appeal to the Israeli government for its protection & restoration. It is in a state of total neglect.)

            Imagine Cleopas & Companion then RUNNING back to Jerusalem (– a quarter-marathon) by the light of a post-Paschal moon, two nights past full… up that hill, & into the City…
            HE IS WITH US ALWAYS, even unto the ends of the age!
            Alleluya!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            What an amazing correlation! Your breadth of historicity, places, & languages is beyond belief. Thank you for this insight, I can use the garden theme into my thesis. I made the correlation to Genesis because of the “two” people, and “their eyes were opened”, but had no idea that Emmaus was a garden. Thanks so much, and keep the brilliant insights coming!

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Thesis topic?? Perhaps we should converse off this blog?
            See Prof. Carsten Peter Thiede’s posthumous book, The Emmaus Mystery (2005).

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I would love to converse off this blog, tell me how you would like to proceed.. I am writing a so-called thesis to bring my older children back into the church. I live in Oklahoma that is predominantly Baptist, only 4% Catholic, and most people today take the path of least resistance. I have begun part of this thesis on baptism, am approximately 1/2 of the way finished with that subject, and have only a small amount prepared for the Eucharist (have all the thoughts and scripture in my mind, just haven’t compiled it all on paper), then will proceed with the Papacy and its scriptural roots.

          • Proudvet56

            I was stationed at Ft. Sill Julie. Beautiful state. Tough city Lawton was. Had never seen red dust till I got there! After one big dust storm it looked like red snow (mini) drifts on base. LOL

          • Julie LaBrecque

            One of my daughters resides in Lawton, her hubby is GS employed on Ft Sill.

          • Proudvet56

            Wow! 40 years ago. Where did the time go? Lol!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            God bless you too. I’ll wave at Ft Sill for you Memorial Day, going to spend weekend with kids then.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I hope Walid does an article comparing Martin Luther to Pope Pius XII. Would be very interesting and enlightening. A little bit of peroxide goes a long way. Maybe the protestant reformation was the beginning of the ‘falling away’…?

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            I’d like to see Walid do a total article on Protestant collaboration and alliance with the bloodthirsty muslims where they gave mutual support, traded and funded the muslim hordes against the Crusaders. Maybe title the article as Protestant dhimmitude during the Crusades. But I guess that would ruffle a lot of feathers and earn Walid more scorn too.

          • Woody

            Walid appears to be interested in the “Truth” that I can see; he knows the risks–a lady called in on the radio the other day and said, “After I converted to Jesus’ Church Catholicism all of my friends left me.”
            Not strange at all, as the Hahn’s found out; Kimberly has 5 Protestant Ministers in her family and they lost many of their friends…but a few weeks ago – she said she just celebrated her 26th year as a Catholic and does not regret one minute of it–how can one no love Jesus Church getting fed with His Body and Blood each day of our lives. Go Jesus! (PS it was Kemberly’s Dad who told her to “pray to the Holy Spirit for 30 days and He will tell you whether to go or not.” What a dad, a Minister himself.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Hi Woody. Yes I am quite aware of the conversion story of the Hahns. Very compelling, Dr. Hahn’s lectures, scriptural references and books are my go to place when I face adherents of/to heresy.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            By the way, Harvard’s Catholic community is holding an Eucharistic Holy Hour on May 12 at around the same time those satanists would be doing their deed.

            This is the statement released.

            In response to the black mass, the Catholic community at Harvard has announced that it is holding a Eucharistic Holy Hour on the evening of May 12 to correspond with the scheduled satanic event.

            Senior chaplain Fr. Michael Drea said this will allow students to “focus on the goodness of our Eucharistic Lord” and seek the grace to be true “defenders of our faith and the sacramental life.”

          • Woody

            Thank you so much Rapheal; appreciate it; I will do a special Divine Mercy prayer that day with my wife;; I read the end of the Book–they lost!

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Quote : [ I read the end of the Book–they lost!]

            As should all those who try to attack the Church of our Lord and Savior and His Magisterium. The complete book not some mish mash take what I like and leave the rest out since that contradicts with my hosh pish posh.

          • Woody

            Yes, I placed a post being curious about whether the Prots are involved in the Pro-life movement because the Press never mention them, and do you know I got an answer that for posing that question i was bashing the Prots (re Pro-life) – he “parses” my post just like they do the Bible, ignoring the rest of my post (he picks a part that seems to support him and ignores the rest that affirms my question) I guess they are just fixed in “making things up (like the rapture) which does not appear in Christian history untll the early 1800’s – just another heresy. It was made up by some Prot Minister (just like Bill gets SOS on some minister–see above [there are so many-who cares about Copeland?)

          • H2o2Bill

            1Th 4:15-18 (4:14) For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. (16) (4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (17) (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. (18) (4:17) Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

            1Th 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will come down from Heaven with a loud word of command, and with an archangel’s voice and the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Afterwards we who are alive and are still on earth will be caught up in their company amid clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

          • Woody

            We all have Bibles so we can read-nothing wrong with the text, it is the arrogant assumption that we can “interpret” it that is heretical; and this is why there are over 37,500-40,000 Protestant churches all exclaiming, “I know what Jesus meant…No–I know what jesus meant.” RIGHT! As far back as Aristotle we know that “contradictions in terms” cannot exist at the same time, “therefore Truth is EXTERNAL not “my Truth and your Truth..” the heretical philosophy of “Relativism” which we live in today. You have been unable to tell me where the Bible says, “Faith Alone” (Martin Luther) or “Sola Fake Scriptura…” (Martin Luther) – the guy you say you do not follow [you are Luther in high-gear]
            But in Scripture there is what St Paul says, “the Pillar and foundation of truth…” it is the CHURCH, the only one Paul knew and belonged to- the One Holy Universal and Apostolic Church which Jesus Founded … tie that one on in Scripture- that is CLEAR. (unless we call Jesus a LIAR!) Not me.
            As I said the Rapture is just one more heresy which did not even come into existence until 1830 (gee, and Jesus died in 28 AD–maybe Jesus did not know of this since He never spoke of it?’ Strange for God not to know it.”
            “You have eyes yet you do not see; ears yet you do not hear.”

            SOURCE: in accord with Walid’s request)

            John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s “new” teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy.
            Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory.
            The Plymouth Brethren
            openly admitted and were even “proud of the fact that among their teachings were
            totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval
            scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.”
            You sure like the heretical beliefs, the ones above even proud to add to Jesus “truth” – Right! Maybe in prayer you can let Jesus know He missed something–not me!
            God Bless, maybe on your way to Jesus’ truth…

          • H2o2Bill

            So you don’t respect the authority of the Scriptures you respect mans opinions of what the Scriptures teach. That is what I see from you. Darby is given credit for the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture not the teaching of the rapture itself. The early Church believed in a pre-wrath rapture.

            (2Ti 3:16-17) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

          • Woody

            Congratulations, you won-you are so smart you are eligible to take my quiz?

            REMEMBER JESUS, OUR DEVINE FOUNDER’S Biblical Words “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus and now let us put it to the test to these brilliant guys and gals on this site:

            In going on 4 months now, no one has been able to solve or even guess at my quiz? What—with over 200 guys and gals on this site—only one response and he got it correct.

            How come no one else can solve the “mystery?” – Why —
            the Largest Christian Church in the World by far with 1.2 Billion members (the Catholic Church); yet, no Founder of this Church apparently can be found (an oxymoron?)

            All churches have a founder—why not this one???

            Have at it, people.

            FORMAT AS BELOW:

            Christian & Bible Churches
            Founder
            Year
            Country
            Nr: Members

            Judaism
            Moses
            B.C.
            Israel
            10.7 MILLION

            Catholic Church
            Founder?????
            28 A.D.
            Judea
            1.2 BILLION

            Lutheranism
            Martin Luther
            1517 A.D.
            Germany
            75 MILLION

            Swiss Reformed Church
            Zwingli
            1523 A.D.
            Switzerland
            2.4 MILLION

            Mennonites
            Several Founders
            1525 A.D.
            Switzerland
            1.5 MILLION

            Anglican Communion
            King Henry 8 I AM I AM
            1534 A.D.
            England
            85 MILLION

            Calvinism
            John Calvin
            1536 A.D.
            Switzerland
            80 MILLION

            Presbyterianism
            John Knox
            1560 A.D.
            Scotland

            40 MILLION
            Baptist Churches
            John Smyth
            1605 A.D.

            Holland
            100 MILLION
            Dutch Reformed
            Michaelis Jones

            1628 A.D.
            Netherlands
            2 MILLION

            Methodism
            John Wesley
            1739 A.D.
            England

            75 MILLION
            TOTAL ALL PROTESTANTISM
            600-800 MILLION

            Amish
            Jakob Ammann
            1693 A.D.
            Switzerland
            0.25 MILLION

            Quakers
            George Fox
            1647 A.D.
            England
            0.4 MILLION

            Moravians
            Count Zinendorf
            1727 A.D.
            Germany

            Congregationalists
            John &
            Charles Wesley
            1744 A.D.
            England

            Swedenborg
            Emanuel Swedenborg
            1747 A.D.
            Sweden

            Brethren
            John Darby What do you know the father of the fake Rapture
            1828 A.D.
            England

            Latter-day Saints
            Joseph Smith
            1830 A.D.
            NY, USA
            15.2 MILLION

            Seventh Day Adventists
            Ellen White – hey- a woman priest?
            1860 A.D.
            NH, USA

            Salvation Army
            William Booth
            1865 A.D.
            England

            Jehovah’s Witnesses
            Charles Russell
            1870 A.D.
            PA, USA
            7.65 MILLION

            Christian Science
            Mary Baker Eddy Hey! Another one?

            1879 A.D.
            Pleasant View, NH USA
            Pentecostalism
            Charles Parham
            1900 A.D.
            CA, USA

            Worldwide Church of God
            Herbert W. Armstrong
            1933/1947 A.D.
            OR, USA 3
            Unification Church

            Sun Myung Moon
            1954 A.D.
            South Korea

            Now ain’t this a “Touchdown Jesus”–but I like Walid’s term better, a “Check Mate Jesus!”

          • Woody

            MAY 10, 2014″Arm yourself with prayer rather than a sword; wear humility rather than fine clothes.”
            — St. Dominic

          • Woody

            Did you know Rapheal that Catholics who attend Mass every Sunday hear 90% of the entire Bible every 3 years; since I go every day it must be over 60+ times easily. After all at each Mass we hear the Bible Readings, and then the Gospel. And then a talk on today’s Readings; When Kimberly Hahn “slipped” into the back of a Catholic Church to see the Mass, the thing that shocked her was the amount of Scripture that she heard. God Bless

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Hi Woody, may the peace and love of our Lord be with you. Good evening, yes I do know and that is the beauty of the Eucharistic celebration. You’d think the adherents to the Protestant heresy would have more than that in their “service” given all the sola scriptura nonsense.

            Speaking of heretics, it reminded me to update you on the satanic event at Harvard. It has been called off indefinitely, but as you know evil cannot be reasoned with and they may be trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but all praise be to our Lord and Savior and His ONE AND ONLY Church has prevailed once again over evil. I am an alumnus of the school and I contribute to their scholarship fund, I called Drew, the President and told her that I and all Catholic alumni of my year will no longer be contributing to the fund as did many other Catholic alumni from all years. Drew quickly changed her tune about Catholics infringing on freedom of expression when I asked would it be acceptable if someone decided to re-enact the hanging of black slaves or the shoving of Jews into crematoria like in Auschwitz-Birkenau? Yes some things are just so offensive that good sense should prevail and such “expressions” which are calculated to offend Catholics specifically should not have any place on campus to begin with. With that, the last thing I heard was it was called off. Regardless of the outcome, the administrators have failed in their duty to prevent such things from ever happening, and as such has damaged the relationship with all Catholic alumni and we have decided to withhold all financial donations and instead channel those funds to the St Vincent De Paul Society and several other Catholic charities for now and if we should resume making contributions to Harvard, it would be a lot less than we used to.

          • Woody

            Raphael- you have made me so happy with your posts;thank you so much but I would not trust those satanists-i.e., they normally, do not announce a black mass, anyway, and they have been gong on since Jesus founded out Church on Peter so many centuries ago.
            But now we have just as bad “news” – the, catch this for twisted logic, have gone on record to accuse our Catholic Church as being “murderers” just for being “pro-life.” (the U.N.) Ain’t that sick. Again, Jesus said His Church would always be “attacked,” by satan (which this is a manifestation of it, too) One of the Protestants on this site accused me of being “prejudiced against Protestants” because I asked why we do not see their presence in the Pro-life movement…but this is just an example of why I asked the question in the first place–notice that the U.N. has said nothing about “Protestants for life,” which proves the point I was making in the first place–in other words-“where are they?”
            but maybe we can start a drive to add to the Republican or -probably more like it–the Tea Party–something I was a member of -back in the 50’s – picketing to “get the UN our of the US and the US out of the UN.” You know as well as I do this is the organization that will take over the world in the End Times…since they are the “One Worlders” –
            I think we need to “defund” it completely – there is nothing “moral” about the UN–a few years back it was well known when they went in supposedly to “help” a country–they raped their women…they take bribes–Hillary has been pushing hard to have them “kill babies world-wide–BO has been trying to get rid of our Constitution “thru making “treaties” with the UN to just do that and now is in the process of allowing them to “tax” Americans. A boo!
            Keep in touch–I meet some nice people on this site, both Catholic and Protestants. Huh, my wife laughs-she says all your gal friends are Protestant-why not-they are pretty.
            God Bless…I am still going to say the Divine Mercy prayer tomorrow as Jesus asked us to do.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Woody, the UN has no credibility when it attacks Christ’s ONE AND ONLY Church on earth with a statement like opposing abortion is torture. They are run by a bunch of illogical, immoral and unethical despots to begin with. If protecting the sanctity of life is equal to torture; then what is injecting a baby in the womb with chemicals that burn the baby and then ripping the child from limb to limb as they remove the dead child from the mother? Is that not the very physical description torture? The UN is doing the work of the diabolical and with countries like Iran, Cuba, China, Nigeria et al and a whole host of misogynistic nations with atrocities by the millions in their recent and current history on the UNHRC; is there any doubt as to why they would want to attack the ONLY entity in this world that champions the sanctity of human life?

            As for signing of treaties, legally speaking without ratification in Congress the paper on which that treaty is written is just as good as toilet paper; however, with how complicit both political parties are and how they are somewhat enjoined in restricting personal liberties and rights it is not unfathomable that such treaties would become laws.

            There is no doubt that BHO is nothing but the Child-killer-in Chief as are all other Democrats that push such an agenda. It is my greatest regret to see people like Kerry, Biden, Pelosi, Sebelius and all other Democrats who call themselves Catholic still able to receive the Eucharist when they show up for church, despite pushing for the murder of innocent babies. Complicit too are some of our own bishops who push the Americanized version of plurality tainted with the Protestant heresy which is in direct contradiction of the teachings of our Church. The failure to call evil evil, to let promiscuity be the order of the day, to make no mention of premarital sex, to not call homosexuality a sin, do nothing or say nothing about contraception and put words in the Holy Father’s mouth that were never said to begin with to justify their personal intent to damage our Lord’s Holy Church and for self glorification.

            Politicians come and go, whatever damage they have done can be undone, however the same cannot be said when our own clergy and higher hierarchy therein succumb to the diabolical and promote teachings that are anathema to that of the Holy Church and such beliefs take root within the congregation. Still I am hopeful that the Lord will intervene and set things right and what he has commanded His Church do will be done.

            May the peace and love of our Lord be with you. God bless.

          • Woody

            Thanks Rapheal; I always learn something from you-I forget about that Treaties have to be ratified by Congress-I know the Dems would do it but not the Repubs; Yes, our Clergy need to be more vocal, although my Church is super-Dominicans- we still have the Communion Rail (no Communion by hand) which is what allows Jesus Body and Blood to be stolen); confessions before and after every Mass; the Tabernacle in the Center with Our Lady right up where She belongs and His dad on the other side…(my only disappointment is not being able to get the Exorcism prayer restored to the Mass here; in 1993 I asked Fr Saunders to restore it in his Church in Virginia, and God Bless him-he did and I went back a year ago and it is still being said at the end of every Mass; 3 years ago I asked Fr Brown in Cleveland to restore it and he did–still going strong) They now have 3 Popes who have asked for its return and few Churches are doing it; we need it given the evil world we have out there.
            God Bless
            [you know I forget today is the 13th which makes the travesty due yesterday, so I will have to double up on the prayer Jesus gave us–The Divine Mercy Prayer. Thank you , Jesus once again (3 times in honor of the HS)

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Hi Woody, good evening. Thank you for the kind words. Yes I agree that receiving the Eucharist by hand paves the way for it being stolen. I remember an incident that happened many years ago when such an attempt happened and was thwarted, a rather small older unassuming lady had noticed a rather large man pocket the host. She reached out and grabbed him by the arm and he fell to the ground a if he was hit by a 300 lb linebacker. Servers and Eucharistic ministers then removed the host from his person and gently ushered him out. The man was neither Catholic nor was he a Protestant, so it was assumed he had other intentions for the consecrated host.

            I have heard of muslims paying top dollar for a consecrated host, I have no idea what they plan on doing with the host other than something diabolical, since they do not believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, and thus how can the host become sacred flesh which actually contradicts their own beliefs and which oddly falls in line with Protestant heresy.

            Not to mention of course those devil worshipers too attach a premium to the host should they get their evil hands on one. Also there are reports of muslims paying up to a hundred thousand dollars for a vial of Christian blood to wash their hands in so that they can claim to have Christian blood on their hands an secure their “salvation”. Have you wondered why that pious muslim in England that murdered the brave soldier happily showed his bloodied hands? We need to pray for the families of these martyrs and prepare ourselves for what is coming.

            Anyway, I am glad to hear you have actively pushed for the restoration of the Exorcism prayer, yes we do need the prayer be said out into the world, there is spiritual warfare happening on many fronts. The muslim attacks, the attacks from the diabolical, the Protestant attacks and of course the political attacks on our faith is just going to get more frequent and more intense. Despite this, what encourages me and strengthens me is the Indefectibility of the One True Church Jesus founded and declared by our Lord Himself in Matt 16:18 “On this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

            I am off to bed for now, perhaps we could continue tomorrow.

            May the love and peace of our Lord be with you. God bless.

          • H2o2Bill

            I take it you just could not resist? I’m not really into Martin Luther and no that’s not the Falling Away. We are seeing the beginning of the falling away though but it won’t happen until people follow the antichrist. Let’s not forget it’s the RCC that forbids marriage and there is plenty more where that came from. If the Pope and the RCC are on the up an up what is the Pope doing hooking up with the likes of Kenneth Copeland? Like I said the “combination burrito” is looking pretty good at the moment. You have to here Walid’s entire set of sermons at Calvary Chapel to get that the 3 hour youtube video easy to find. Let’s not forget they killed men for putting the Bible into English so the common man could read it. Does that really sound like a falling away?

            (Eph 2:4-9) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If you are so versed in Walid’s “sermons” from Calvary Chapel, then you are diametrically opposed to what he stated. He absolutely debunked the “combination burrito” theory. You are attempting to resurrect it. Maybe you should listen to the tapes again.
            I noticed you did not mention the blood of Catholics that were butchered by Protestants. You are putting forth half-truths in a feeble attempt to defend Protestantism and slander Catholicism. If you dared read the early church fathers, you would see how far away your beliefs are from theirs.
            How do you reconcile your statement that “we are beginning to see the falling away, but it’s not going to happen till people follow the Anti-Christ?” That’s a self-defeating argument as presented. It’s apparent that you are uncomfortable with the falling away possibly pointing to beginnings of Protestantism. Whether you like it or admit it or not, your denomination is an offspring of Martin Luther. You must happen to know how deranged he was or else you wouldn’t have ducked for cover.
            Further, to make it easier for you to understand, only men who desire to the priesthood take a vow of celibacy and nuns who enter the convent. These people live a life devoted only to God, and instead of your commending them, your are trying to blaspheme them. Maybe you can’t even try to hold the standard that they strive for. I noticed no comment from you of the scriptures I provided that uphold celibacy as the more difficult, but exalted state to be in. No lay person is required to maintain a life of celibacy, and no man is forced into the priesthood. If you had knowledge of history, this forbidding to marry is what the gnostics made doctrinal for ALL.

          • H2o2Bill

            Catholic death toll 200 million and counting. You still made no comment concerning the Pope’s new found friend Kenneth Copeland. I love to back up my beliefs with verses and my beliefs but based on past experience when faced with truth the RCC apologist will claim a interpretation clause when faced with the truth of Scriptures. First the “falling away” For one we are seeing much compromise and falling away amongst the protestants. My core beliefs might line up with the reformist camp but we certainly part ways somewhere down the road, just wanted to toss that in there. We are seeing much compromise this is a sign of the times. I fully admit this is happening I bring this to peoples attention as evidence that we are in the “last days”. Mark my words the ones who have compromised on moral issues will be the first to respond to the Pope’s invitation there is already evidence to this. Look at what denomination the man was that spoke at Copeland’s Church when they had the exchange with the Pope. I doubt the money grabbing preacher Kenneth Copeland would have never dared to pull off what the did the other day years ago he certainly never would have got away with it. A little conjecture there? Perhaps. Never the less my point stands and will only grow more obvious in time. I hope one day this chat we had will be drawn to your attention by the living God of heaven. Now the Bible verses I was thinking of when I said what I said concerning the falling away in my previous post.

            (2Th 2:1-4) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

            The falling away now is only a sign that the “falling away” is fast approaching.

            I remember Walid saying he has a piece of the puzzle. You can’t watch the video on youtube of the Pope and Kenneth Copeland and not see what is happening right before our own eyes Walid can deny it all he wants but I trust in due time he will come around. I can easily see a combination burrito. The Muslims will listen to someone who does signs and wonders and makes a treaty with Israel knowing the teaching in Islam the same person will break the treaty in time. People say it has to be this or can’t be that forget signs and wonders are going to make up for all of that. Many are already in love with the world and have no desire for things to change from the way they are right now.

            Let’s not forget not all Churches are falling away not all Churches are compromising on moral grounds. Many are not going to take the Pope up on his offer. People are asking if it’s fulfilled prophecy. Walid really needs to respond to what is going on. If he is going to defend the RCC and expose error then he needs to explain what is going on between the Pope and Kenneth the money grabbing preacher Copeland. I could quote Copeland but I don’t want that feeling right now maybe next time.

            Here are some more verses for you.

            (1Ti 3:1-6) This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

            (1Ti 4:1-5) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

            The Bible teaches all believers are priest and Christ is the High Priest. Nothing about Nuns in the Bible.

            I’m not trying to win a debate here time is running out. Time is running out for discussions like this too.

            Let’s watch and see I believe we are going to see the Denominations and Churches that have already compromised on moral issues join up with the Pope and the RCC first. It’s already happening that way. Some in Baptist circles teach that all that came out of the RCC will one day rejoin them. I’m not so sure about that but might as well put it out there as a possibility.

            By the way I have listened to Walid’s teachings many times over and over again. I was supporting him until I seen what was going on here. I seriously doubt any of them Calvary Chapel Churches would have let Walid speak if he talked as he does on here. I had no idea Theodore was saying the things he was saying. I trust Walid will be willing to do the right thing in due time.

          • Woody

            Well I just had to look up this guy’s fixation on this Copeland fellow and what do you know–just another Protestant Minister of the 40,000 churches; so what is so special about him which you hate: as a cursory view, I ;picked up this from his website, and see nothing wrong with–all prayers are good prayers:

            Kenneth Copeland Prayer of Petition

            Kenneth Copeland Prayer of Salvation

            Kenneth Copeland Prayer Request.Form

            Kcm Prayer Line Number

            Kenneth Copeland Phone Number

            Kenneth Copeland Ministries

            Kenneth Copeland Healing Prayer

            Kenneth Copeland Teaching On Prayer

          • H2o2Bill

            I stand by my words Walid & Theodore need to explain this Copeland connection. I stand by what I believe is going to happen in the future the Churches that have declined morally and their doctrine will be the first to get in the the Pope & the RCC. It’s already gone down that way so far.

            You might want to have a close look at Kenneth Copeland before you go defending him. I would post many links here but they don’t allow that here.

          • Woody

            I looked at him briefly; he looks like any other minister to me; you have “odd” opinions.

          • Woody

            Yes, you ought to excommunicate Walid & Theodore from your personal church…if you knew any history the Church with any evil creeping in from private sin is in a much better shape than during the first 4 centuries of Roman times–it was outlawed and Christians were put to death (a lot of women were brave souls), but this is how the Church (only Catholic then and the same today) grew so fast–on the blood of our martyrs, and someday I will thank Philomena, Barbara, the first Pope Peter, St Paul for their sacrifices and for not rejecting Jesus by saying no to the Roman rats when they commanded Christians to “make a sacrifice to their emperor gods.”
            If you want to follow Jesus who said “Know the truth and the truth will set you free…” you need to read the early Church Fathers to see what Christians (Catholics) believed (it is the same today)…and see the truth as “Jesus is One,His Church is One; he never gave any authority to men to “found” churches for Him as He is and was perfectly capable of creating His own Church rather than have men create 40,000 disparate churches–all preaching different doctrines (gay marriage is ok; no it is not ok) (women ministers are okay; no they are not) (the sabbath is a saturday; no it is not) women rabbis are ok; no they are not) on and on and on–no thanks.
            we’ll stick with Jesus
            God Bless

          • Woody

            If he likes some dude named Copeland so much-marry him-you can today; no body even cares about someone they don’t even know–this is called a “fixation” in therapy. Talk about sick.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Walid isn’t afraid of Calvary Chapel or any group, or person. If it is true that they would not allow him back if he spoke like he did on this website, they must be a bigoted bunch of hypocrites. You must not visit Walid’s sight frequently as he has put out several articles defending the Catholic Church. You can’t find your doctrines or practices in the early church, so you resort to slander to demean what you hate. Where do you get your number 200 million and counting? Where’s the number of Catholics slaughtered by protestant England, and by Philadelphian’s in the 1800’s? What about John Calvin seeing to it that Michael Servetus was killed? Do you recall Israel’s history? Pretty bloody, but you don’t condemn them.
            You can white-wash protestant history all you want, the fact remains that the protestants sided and aided the Muslims in the crusades. Without the crusades you and I would be Muslims, or be dead.
            Line up your beliefs from the beliefs of the early Christians as historically documented, and you will see that you are not in the faith that they were.
            You mentioned that there’s no mention of nuns in the Bible – do you have a problem with a practice that isn’t specified in the Bible? You come across as hostile to a person that can willingly dedicates their life wholly to God.

          • Proudvet56

            Julie, you can’t take this Bill guy seriously. He said he wasn’t gonna post on this site anymore. Well how did he know the content? He has to be still reading it. He quotes a lot of scripture. Try this one on for size Bill. Let your yes be your yes, and let your no be your no, everything else is from the evil one.

          • Woody

            Actually I think the HS is working on him and wants him to return home…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That’s a good one! Bill and others like him are like bulls in a china shop. Nothing less than bullies, how dare anyone point out the errors of their ways.

          • Proudvet56

            Well I’ve noticed that he, and some others seem to not like the Shoebats historical research if it shines a bad light on their church. In other words they disappear for awhile(usually in a huff), and then come back if the facts don’t please them. Why do they inflict emotional pain on themselves? But all kidding aside Julie, I have yet to see, any Catholics or Jews come on here, and throw the first punch. Yes I did counter punch a few weeks ago reminding summersrent about the atrocities of the Protestants, Baptists, and other Non-Catholics right here in America not to long ago towards, Blacks, Jews, and Catholics. But that was a counter punch for jumping on Walid, and Teds research. In late July even here in the Northeast it will get hot, and the weather people will tell us how hot, do we then yell at them for reporting the facts? Lol. I guess you can’t please everyone.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’re exactly right. They throw the first punch, then disparage anyone one who comes back with a second. As long as Walid is only showing what’s going on with Muslims, they are fat and happy. Any research he brings that shows protestants in a dim light, they are ready to check out or slam him.

          • Woody

            I came in late–this Bill is really out there; when did Walid turn Catholic? I must have missed something; but if he did, congratulations, like Scott Hahn Rome Sweet Home

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I think Bill is digging for turnips.

          • H2o2Bill

            I never indicated that Walid is scard of Calvary Chapel that sounds kind of silly. So now your going to use the religious race card calling them bigots. No need to try and compare Israel to the RCC either. That would be replacement theology aye? Some of the early reformed Churches did have some faults and practices that needed to end. Walid was not singing this tune when he was preaching from the pulpits of America. You can check the audio Walid said he is not a Catholic and has some problems with the Catholic Church. Maybe I will have to listen to them again so I can get a direct quote. Walid also gives testimony to a born again experience.

            Your refuting a 200 million number and make reference to a single man? Please try again.

            Why would I be hostile to the idea of people being fully dedicated to the living God of heaven. This is what is missing in the Church today (Church = born again believers in Christ Jesus). I often point people to the many setapartlife videos put out by Ellerslie the ministry of Eric & Leslie Ludy if you care to check into them. Women are needed in ministry but again you don’t find the idea of Nuns in the Bible. Yes we have the teaching on Eunuchs but that is not the same as forbidding to marry. Do you think if some of the men and women caught up in the sexual scandals might have been married they would have never fallen into such things? John MacArthur has a excellent sermon on that subject. there are a select few that are able to live life free from sexual desires. The Bible teaches if you have them you are to marry.

            I will forget about the 200 million number for now I don’t insist on it but I don’t believe it’s wrong to quote it either. It may be higher it may be lower. What if it’s only fifty million. Fifty million Christians killed by the RCC and you want to claim you are the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ? I have read some of Fox’s Book of Martyrs, and The Trail of Blood Cover to Cover.

            I’m not upset at all I have strong beliefs I really believe what I believe. If I come across something that tells me I’m wrong I repent and make changes. I just found out I was wrong on something and fully admitted it on youtube the other day.

            Looks like I forgot to address the Muslim connection to the protestants. Considering the history it is understandable of how it happened. Considering the history of the RCC up to that point in time. Considering the age of the reformed Church at that time. Context explains a lot.

            ““This war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and the North on the question of slavery,
            neither Jeff Davis nor anyone of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits, that, under the mask of Democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholic, even the arms of France were at their disposal, if they would attack us. I pity the priests, the bishops and monks of Rome in the United States, when the people realize that they are, in great part, responsible for the tears and the blood shed in this war.” Abe Lincoln

            And that is not all he said concerning the RCC.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Need I remind you that you made the “threat” that Calvary Chapel wouldn’t have him back if he spoke like he did here? Your words, not mine. I said that if what you spoke was indeed true, then they would be bigots.
            You can apply “born again” all you want, that phrase was spoken of once, and it regards baptism. Jesus said NO ONE enters the Kingdom without it.
            No. I dont’ believe that if they were married it would it have prevented it. If you and John MacArthur think otherwise, I will be wating to hear how you and John explain the sexual exploitation committed by protestants, and even non-Christians, that are married. How do you explain adultery? These people are married, but they desire sex elsewhere. I suppose you think that rapists rape for lack of sex.
            “Considering the history it is understandable of how it happened” Why do you “white-wash” what they did in defending their despicable alliance with the party of the Anti-Christ? That’s hideous.
            You are bringing in falsities regarding the Jesuits. Boy you fall for any conspiracy theory under the sun. For your info, it was the majority Protestant south that wanted to keep slavery against the more heavily Catholic populated North that was against it.

          • H2o2Bill

            When I enter a discussion like this I’m not trying to win a debate. I do my very best to be clear and understood. I don’t try to pick the persons words apart. I do my best to pick apart their theology or teaching. You did not bring all my words with you in your quote. I’m making the point that I don’t believe Walid would have ever gained the popularity he now enjoys if he had been playing the part of a Catholic apologist. Walid was singing a different tune when he was given the privileged to speak from the pulpits of America. I even had some lose quotes from Walid to make my point. Please if we are going to discuss these issues stop trying to argue like a lawyer and try to understand what I’m saying and the points I’m trying to make. Abe Lincoln made the remarks not me, trying to say it’s nothing more than a conspiracy theory is not being accurate at all.

            Sexual sins are a major problem in today’s world believers and non-believers get caught up in this stuff way to much. I would need to write a lengthy book in order to deal with every aspect of the subject I merely touched on the part we were talking about here. So you think if Priest and Nuns were allowed to marry all of them would still fallen for sexual sins? Every single one of them? I could blast away with things no Catholic can explain away.

            I have no idea what goes through the mind of a rapist. The experts will say it has more to do with control than a sexual desire. So many that post here love to point the finger at the evil Muslims some of it is needed but way to many take an Ezekiel’s vantage point to eye up America. I posted about rape on here if I remember right. I don’t need to see into the mind of a rapist to know that it is wrong.

            You never did comment of the why Kenneth Copeland and the Pope are new found friends? I have done my very best to address what you post. Your picking and choosing what you answer from mine and ignoring flat out questions.

            I’m growing tired of talking about Walid too. If he wants to jump in here he will. I mention things hoping to get his attention. Nothing more.

            I have asked a number of times on here with no answer.

            Walid are you a practicing Catholic? If no Why not? If Yes why?

            Theodore are you a practicing Catholic? If no Why not?

            Julie please forgive me I thought I had already posted this when I wrote my last post to you.

            Some Christians from the reformed Churches joined up with the Muslims to fight a common enemy the RCC not all it was not even the norm to my understanding. Anna-Baptist were persecuted from the RCC and the Calvinist. There is a lot going on just to pin something like that on Protestants is plain wrong and not telling the whole story. Not all will lay claim to being Protestants either.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If a dialogue between 2 people makes them newfound friends, then I suppose you and I are newfound friends
            Your statement “there is a lot going on just to pin something like that on Protestants is plain wrong and not telling the whole story” – exactly what you did with your assertion “200 million dead and counting”. You only pinned wrong on Catholics, you did not speak one word did about Protestants shedding of Catholic blood… that’s being a bit hypocritical don’t you think?
            I’m stumped at why you think that Ted or Walid need to answer you as to whether or not they are practicing Catholics – would it prejudice you towards them? I hope you say no or otherwise you would become a bigot. FYI-the anabaptists were heretics, they believed they had to be “re-baptized”, in spite of scripture that declares One Baptism.

          • H2o2Bill

            Like I said before stop trying to argue like a lawyer. There is nothing false about stating the 200 million number. One quarter of that is still 50 million. You can call me names that’s OK but you have still ignored what I have posted and the direct questions to you. I don’t want to argue the small details that are difficult to prove. Show me from the Bible if you want to convince me of anything.

            Ted and Walid ask for donations they are to be held accountable don’t you think? What’s wrong with a straight forward question? Are they hiding something from the Catholics? Are they hiding something from the others here? I believe that Walid has nothing but honest good intentions in his wok here but I fear he has put his priority on his work opposed to truth. I think he has been hurt by the Churches he has visited. I could be wrong that is how I see it.

            I’m a Anabaptist does that make you a bigot? I was baptized as a Lutheran or more accurately I was sprinkled as a Lutheran. Then I was born again and wanted to be baptized the Bible way. “buried with Him in baptism” going all the way under the water. Just as the word baptism indicates by it’s very definition.

            This is over truth has been posted. People can see for themselves.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You need a dose of your own medicine. You put yourself in a cage that you tried to put me in when you mentioned only the wrongs committed by Catholics.
            If you believe in 2 baptisms, scripture itself would declare you a heretic. It say ONE BAPTISM, what good do you think the second one did? Did the first one not “take”? Further, Ezekiel’s prophecy of the New Covenant states “I will sprinkle clean water on you to make you clean”, as were the Israelites were when they passed through the Red Sea, read Paul if you don’t understand this.
            You fear the Walid has put his priority on his work opposed to the truth. Do you only like him if you can pigeonhole him? If he exposes truths outside of “prophecy”, you have no use for him? If so, that is a smack in his face, and would indeed make you a bigot. You seem to only like his teachings when they please you.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You really ought to study history before opening mouth. The first translation of the Bible into English was done in the 7th century by monks. I wonder what Church that might have been? Let me scratch my head to remember which protestant church existed in the 7th century. If you come up with one, let me know.

          • Woody

            “I take it you just could not resist? I’m not really into Martin
            Luther and no that’s not the Falling Away. We are seeing the beginning of the falling away though but it won’t happen until people follow the antichrist.”

            “Let’s not forget it’s the RCC that forbids marriage and there
            is plenty more where that came from. If the Pope and the RCC are on the up an up what is the Pope doing hooking up with the likes of Kenneth Copeland?”

            Huh? Where do you get all your erroneous information—no body holds “Marriage higher” than Jesus’ Church—it has always held the Sacrament of Marriage as one of Jesus’ “Our Founder’s” — 7 Sacraments, and One cannot get any higher than a — Sacrament—the Protestants did away with 5 of the 7 Sacraments and, who knows maybe some of the 37-40,000 DESPARIT ONES…. eliminated the last 2.

            They certainly hold “Marriage” at a much lower level than Jesus’ Church..

            Pope’s don’t “hookup,” as they are celebate, now and have
            been—the only one I know for sure is Peter; never heard of “Kenneth Copeland” so it means nothing to me; but with your erroneous info on marriage-I would suspect this is wrong too.

            “Like I said the “combination burrito” is looking pretty good at the moment. You have to here Walid’s entire set of sermons at Calvary Chapel to get that the 3 hour youtube video easy to find. Let’s not forget they killed men for putting the Bible into English…”

            “Talk about weird ideas? No one would kill for putting the Bible into English especially since Catholic put the Bible out there at the Council after Constantine ordered it be done; [no Protestant showed up—they were all Catholic Bishops and it took place at Nicea in 325 AD.”

            You may like Walid’s “Them Damned Catholics” on how we saved Western Civilization from the Muslims…

            I don’t eat burritos.

            Walid is a great researcher; his latest one is that the Christians at the time of the Apostles all had “statues” – icons, and Incense in their churches nothing new to Catholics since we are the same people today-Walid, being honest-pointed out that it is the Evangelicals that are wrong—not
            Catholics – (I don’t know why he singled out Evangelicals since I heard that all Protestants share this belief) and you did find out finally that there is quite a difference between “veneration” versus “adoration (showing an honor to
            someone)… (worship belonging only to God) How you fall for this stuff is puzzling??

            “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

            What you are doing is ‘verse picking”—starting out with an erroneous concept and then searching around till you find something that” “appears” to support you. To wit: The Bible must be read “in Toto”—and there is nothing in the Bible that gives Bill any authority to “interpret Scripture” – this is very reason you have near 40,000 churches all claiming to “know” what Jesus taught- “What is the pillar and foundation of
            truth – 9 out of 10 Protestants will quickly snap – “Why the Bible of course…” No–as in st Paul 1 Timothy 3:15 –“it’s the
            “church!” Sola Scritpura is nowhere to be found in the Bible, and this is why – Scott Hahn, a brilliant Protestant Minister and Seminary Teacher at one time, converted to Jesus’ One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church [the 4 Marks of the
            True Church.]

            Now you are getting silly, picking the likes of Luther whom you say you are not a follower of–yet have bought his spiel, hook, line and sinker, this is the guy who took 6 books out of the OT (doubt me? Pick up the Bible Jesus used—the Septuagint (OT) and count the books – there are 72 not 66
            which Luther took out) because they proved his ideas wrong (e.g., Maccabees – because it affirms Purgatory)

            We also know from Scripture that it is at this judgment that Jesus will judge “the dead according to their deeds” (Revelation 20:12) … [no – “Faith Alone!” [Again, this is Luther whom supposedly you disdain.]

            “Like I said the “combination burrito” is looking pretty good at the moment. You have to here Walid’s entire set of sermons at Calvary Chapel to get that the 3 hour youtube video easy to find. Let’s not forget they killed men for putting the Bible into English so the common man could read it. Does that really sound like a falling away?”

            SO FAR–NOT SO GOOD–

            “(Eph 2:4-9) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by
            grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
            For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

            Well, lookey at here! Ain’t dis da guy who Luther also wanted to throw out of the NT cause it did not agree with this false ideas AND, by God—look! This is in the Protestant Bible-what do you know. The first sentence is what you are saying–
            James 2:14-26
            New King James Version (NKJV)

            Faith Without Works Is Dead…(Gee, what happened to “Faith alone?”)

            14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and
            filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself,
            if it does not have works, is dead.

            God Bless, take heart- if you “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free…” (Thank you Jesus)

          • Proudvet56

            Then why did you? You seem to have a Messiah complex Bill. Walid, and his staff as usual do some research, present some facts, and you scream at the messenger. You completely missed the point of this article. Walid showed 2 things here. 1. No Christian theology (church) is immune to attack from Satan in this way. 2.The lamestream press basically ignored all the other incidences of this kind of FILTH by clergy of other faiths. I once again thank the Shoebat foundation, for enlightening us to these facts, and don’t think I should waste my time claiming he is picking non-Catholics. What’s more important Bill, making damn sure that this horrendous evil does not take place in our houses of worship, or taking pot shots at each others theologies?

          • H2o2Bill

            I thought I explained myself, but I will try again. I was not going to post but I had to make a comment after reading some most bizarre logic that I had ever seen. I then went on to make a comment about the article. I conceded that sexual abuses or sexual sins are to common and made a comment on how some go way out their once common practices to not only prevent such things but also prevent potential fraud. Doctrine is important.

          • Woody

            Satan knows only the True Church of Jesus has His wonderful gift – His Body and Blood; he also knows protestants rejected His gift and (see John VI and at the Last Supper); you can get bread and wine at the local food store, and that is not what satan wants–he already knows that he has lost. now you are in trouble, Julie, the nut jobs will come on-those of Little Faith, the same crazies that rejected their own Pentecostals because “miracles ended with the Apostles.” the real reason is they have no one who can consecrate the Eucharist, not since Luther died.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            These guys forget how much intelligence Lucifer has, he was “Full of Wisdom” and “Perfect in Beauty”. He knows more than most of us ever will. At one’s own peril do you deny to him this attribute. I don’t think Luther could consecrate after he was ex-communicated. I already had a nut job attach my response. I think he has one too many “bubbles” in his name.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            The Holy Father, Pope Francis said today, “The greatest achievement of satan is convincing so many that he doesn’t exist.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That has always been Satan’s greatest trick – deception.

          • Woody

            Were you also aware of this Julie–the satanic rosaries being put out-Jesus always said His Church would be attacked; notice that satan leaves the protestant churches alone since he knows that with 37,500 – 40,000 churches they are self-destructing on their own.

          • Woody

            Yes, just saw the Greta interview on the satanists as 60,000 persons reacted, and Our Lady really “kicked butt,” – (oops sorry Mom for the expression), but I loved seeing all those Rosaries swinging in the breeze; satan hates the Gospel more than anything else, and he quickly pitches himself back into hell when he hears the name of Jesus mentioned or hears His prayers being said. let’s hear it for those great students at Harvard who did what their administration failed to do.
            God Bless

          • Woody

            Why did this just come in/ Did I not see this before? Anyway don’t forget that on May 12th say the Divine Mercy prayer Jesus gave to us through st Faustina; I have my Protestant friend from the Beach saying a prayer also on the 12th.
            BTW Bill believes in a lot of things but he don’t believe in satan. Strange guy!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Bill doesn’t believe in Satan? Where is that post?

          • Woody

            When I mentioned the “black mass” he said something like you believe of all this just because of some satanist… Who does he thinks a satanist would take orders from?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He forgets that Satan, in addition to trying to replace Jesus, he also mimicks Jesus.

          • Woody

            I really don’t understand why Jesus’ beautiful Mother is so scorned by the Protestants; had she said, “No” to the Archangel Gabriel (she does have a fee will) – they would be in hell today (no Savior); talk about “ingrates” – didn’t Jesus mention something about “ingrates?’ But how dumb is it to be standing in line at their “judgement” and expecting to be let into Heaven after bashing His Mom all their lives! Duh! And look how far they have come when their ship lost its rudder–Luther,Zwingli, Calvin, and Wesley, all had the highest esteem for our Mother. I remember when I was 7 years old and she asked me if I would want her to be my mother, too? Boy did I jump at the chance; but she sure has had her time with me; sometimes, if she weren’t so sweet I think maybe she would want to take that offer back.
            Well, it is festival season and I have to get my books ready for sale. Wish me a good season…
            God Bless
            (one other thing, I was thinking that, you being a mother, how hard would it have been for you to watch your son dying on a cross–they say moms hurt much more)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “Your soul too, a sword shall pierce”. Unfortunately, the protestants are still piercing her soul. Good luck on your book sales.

          • Woody

            man am I busy and SnuggleBunny came home sick; she is feeling better but I persuaded her to quit her job-maybe she should go in for those 10 hour per week jobs like Real Estate (just kidding) I sent out 40 book marketing sheets today; wrote a book – the Bible….
            Hey. did you get those pics on the black mass? It was a debacle–thanks to all those prayers from our Catholic and Protestant and Jewish friends; the Pics are wonderful and the Rosary of Our Lady (the Gospel) played a prominent role in ousting satan–but don’t rejoice – he will be back…oops my printer stopped – time to go downstairs and prepare 20 more sendouts…
            God Bless all here!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I did not get them. Was very pleased that Satan had a little wrinkle thrown in his plan!

          • Woody

            Can you believe this–two Ministers duking it out over, of all things–Sabbath vs. Sunday?; Sunday has been worshiped by the first Christians (Catholics) since the time of the Apostles–see what happens when you lose Jesus’ Church (no rudder, not direction) [Protestants still believe they are of the “Old Covenant (Sabbath was the day Jews worshiped on–so who cares? If they want to worship on Saturday like the Jews–got ahead) [they have been arguing for centuries and like the 37,000 – to 40,000 churches — they settle on few Truths. No change was made–“a new Day was selected by Peter and the Apostles. ” And if they wanted to ‘change” it–they could have–they miss entirely Jesus’ granting HIS Church full authority, “Whatsoever you bind on Earth. I will “bind” in Heaven; whatsoever you loose upon Earth, I will “loose” in Heaven.”

            No clearer “authority” can be stated–“binding and loosing” under Rabinical Law meant “religious laws” could be changed.

            Why aren’t they objecting to the change made at the First Church Council of Jerusalem when circumcism was changed. If this keeps up, pretty soon we will have “Minister Mary Ellen Foreskin battling Minister Juanita Shortpeck ” over this issue. Here is the full story: (on the Jewish Sabbath “gone:”[from Jesus’ Church [see Paul’s “listen to the Church; it is the “Foundation and :Pillar of Truth,”) –not “interpret scripture on your own.”

            Until recently, I always thought Catholics worshiped on the Sabbath, and that the early Church moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?

            Answer

            This is a common misunderstanding. Catholics do not worship on the Sabbath, which according to Jewish law is the last day of the week (Saturday), when God rested from all the work He had done in creation (Gen. 2:2-3). Catholics worship on the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week (Sunday, the eighth day); the day when God said “Let there be light” (Gen. 1:3); the day when Christ rose from the dead; the day when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles (Day of Pentecost). The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “The Church celebrates the day of Christ’s Resurrection on the ‘eighth day,’ Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord’s Day” (CCC 2191).

            The early Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Instead “The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday, which recalls the “new creation” inaugurated by the “Resurrection of Christ” (CCC 2190). Sunday is the day Catholics are bound to keep–not Saturday.

            We see evidence of this in Scripture:

            On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight (Acts 20:7).

            On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever one can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come (1 Cor. 16:2).

            Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath (Col. 2:16).

            The Catechism also says:

            By a tradition handed down from the Apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ’s Resurrection, the Church celebrates the Paschal mystery every seventh day, which day is appropriately called the Lord’s Day or Sunday. The day of Christ’s Resurrection is both the first day of the week, the memorial of the first day of creation, and the “eighth day,” on which Christ after his “rest” on the great Sabbath inaugurates the “day that the Lord has made,” the “day that knows no evening.” (CCC 1166)

            God Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Shush- binding and loosing? You’re going to wreck their argument! How dare you recall Jesus’ clearly spoken words, words that are clearly defined in the OT. Even IF they scriptures did not record that the early church worshipped on the 1st day, the church has the power to bind it on the faithful.
            Heaven and earth are always in concert.

          • Woody

            Boy, you are on here all the time; what about your realtor business–you got St. Joseph out there the poor guy? How is the market where you are?

        • In continuation… Please note that my previous comment had also acknowledged how the Catholic Church has recently been taking action on the reported improprieties by priests. Here is a timely article posted today as reported by Associated Press:

          “Vatican Has Defrocked 848 Priests For Abuse Charges Since 2004: Report, (Asociated Press article: by JOHN HEILPRIN and NICOLE WINFIELD ) – excerpts-

          GENEVA (AP) — The Vatican revealed Tuesday that over the past decade, it has defrocked 848 priests who raped or molested children and sanctioned another 2,572 with lesser penalties, providing the first ever breakdown of how it handled the more than 3,400 cases of abuse reported to the Holy See since 2004…

          The Vatican’s U.N. ambassador in Geneva, Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, released the figures during a second day of grilling by a U.N. committee monitoring implementation of the U.N. treaty against torture…

          Tomasi also provided statistics about how the Holy See has adjudicated sex abuse cases for the past decade. The Vatican
          in 2001 required bishops and religious superiors to forward all credible cases of abuse to Rome for review after determining that they were shuffling pedophile priests from diocese to diocese rather than subjecting them to church trials. Only in 2010 did the Vatican explicitly tell bishops and superiors to
          also report credible cases to police where local reporting laws require them to…”
          This is what ALL churches should be doing.

          • shoebat

            Is firing them enough? Why not burn them at the stake?

          • Well…if this country implements Sharia Law like some politicians and judges seem to be wanting… lol 🙂

          • Woody

            Even better make them celibate…

      • Woody

        Since 2000 no one has done more that the Catholic Church to correct abuses within its ranks while others just keep their “sins” hidden so I doubt that there will be any corrective action on their part. Has BO fired anyone in his Adminstration for anything–no, they get promoted with a bonus yet.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I had replied to someone that their assertion that the church had done nothing was BS, Benedict implemented tough measures to help alleviate any future problems. But, they’d rather flap their jaws instead of researching a little bit.

  • Randy

    There is no “Protestant Church” comparable to the centralized bureaucracy of the Catholic Church, you knucklehead. The premise of this article is inane and is based on tortuous logic. It would be like McDonald’s having to fire thousands of managers for sexual harassment, then someone coming along and saying, “Well there’s more harassment in the slow food industry!”

    Pedophilia and other sex crimes are tragedies common to man. However, they are an epidemic in Catholicism because they “forbid people (in this case priests) to marry,” a doctrine Paul says is “taught by demons.” (1 Tim. 4.1-3)

    In order to save face and protect the institution at all costs, the vast majority of the countless thousands of priests caught sexually brutalizing young people are simply moved from one parish to another, as every legal case brought against the Catholic Church has demonstrated.

    The Catholic bureaucracy has known about this problem long before it became a public scandal, yet still drags it’s feet for fear of exposing the true depths of the problem. Rome’s inaction to root out pedophiles from its ranks is in no way comparable to evangelical Christian churches, as Mike Ramirez explains in his comment.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Bible-thumper, you are ignorant of scripture. Jesus recommended celibacy in Matt 19 (eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven) , and so did Paul 1 Cor 7 (an unmarried man is anxious for the things of the Lord, how me can please the Lord, and a married man is anxious of things of the word, and is DIVIDED), Revelation 14 “and these are those who have not defiled themselves with women, they are virgins and follow the Lamb wherever He goes”
      Celibacy has nothing to do with immoral sexual conduct. If it did, what is your excuse for married clergy committing sexual abuse?
      Your last paragraph shows your appalling ignorance of what Benedict did during his papacy.
      You think there is no “protestant church” comparable in bureaucracy. First off, what is wrong with hierarchy, bureaucracy as you call it. You need to check the Southern Baptist Convention and their problems.

      • Randy

        Julie, since you cited Scripture to support your position as well, I take it “Bible-thumping” means reading the Word, in this case Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth, in context =).

        For starters, you’re absolutely on point in expressing Paul’s sentiments on marriage: while a married man’s interest are divided, an unmarried man is “anxious” (good word) for the things of the things of the Lord.
        (1 Corinthians 7.32-35)

        However, two quick points. First, when it comes to remaining single, the apostle says he has “no command from the Lord.” but offers his “judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy” (7:25). This advice I have taken to heart, and have remained single up to this point (I’m 34) so as to serve “with undistracted devotion to the Lord.” (v.35)

        Secondly, Paul is careful to clarify that it is not a command from the Lord for anyone, including ministers, to remain celibate. “Don’t we, Paul asks in reference to his co-laborers in Corinth, “have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas (the apostle Peter)?”

        The Lord Jesus, as you pointed out, says the same thing of marriage. However, let’s be careful to note that Christ gives the same qualification on the subject as Paul, namely that celibacy is not a divine mandate for anyone:

        The disciples said to Him, ‘If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.’
        Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:10-12)

        Let’s get to the ‘bureaucracy’ question a little later (I’m late for dinner!), but in the mean time, I’d love to hear your thoughts on “the Lord’s brothers and Peter” being married.

        All the best, and I very much appreciate your reply.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Peter was indeed married. The church has the authority of binding and loosing. I realize that you don’t believe they do, but they do. The prohibition currently in place is for priests only, it has not always been so. No man is forced to be a priest. Jesus’s brothers, as you so referred them, were not his flesh and blood brothers. None of them were ever referred to as sons of Mary.
          ( Any male member of a Hebrew family was called brother, that is why Abraham called Lot his brother when indeed Lot was his nephew.) Sister-in-laws were called sisters.
          Here’s the rundown of the “brothers’ you assume to be sons of Mary
          Matt13:55-56 brothers James, Joseph, Simon, Judas
          John 19:25 ” Standing by the cross were his mother and his mothers’ sister, Mary the wife of Clopas
          Matt 27:56 “… Mary Magdalene. .and Mary the MOTHER of James and Joseph.
          Mark 15:40 “Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the MOTHER of the younger James & Joses.
          Luke 6:16 “And Judas the son of James.
          Mark 3:16″…James, son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James”
          Matt 10:2 “… James the son of Zebedee & his brother John”
          Read Hegesippus, 2nd century historian, for the relatives of Jesus, i.e. family through St. Joseph, his brother was Clopas, aka Cleopas married to the other Mary.
          It’s really a shame that I have to go through this to refute what so many protestant leaders have put through their followers heads, and unfortunately, their sheep buy the smear and repeat it. Please don’t take for granted what you hear from books and pulpits. Check the Bible and history first, it’s all there if you really want to know the truth.
          Mary’s perpetual virginity has been witnessed to through all of church history, including your reformation leaders, Luther, Zwingli, and Knox. It is a horrible stain on God’s children to attempt to dirty the name and reputation of His Son’s mother.

          • Woody

            Yes, tradition holds that Peter’s wife (Eudixia) died under the persecution of Nero,; some say that Peter was made to watch her execution…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’ve read those accounts. I wish I could recall what he is reported to have said to her, but I can’t off the top of my head.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            In the mid-Second Century, when people were still close enough to the living memory, it was held that the named “brothers” and unnamed “sisters” of Jesus were children of St Joseph, a widower, by a prior marriage. Even Giotto seems to have known this, as in his fresco, the “Flight into Egypt,” a young teen St James, “the Lord’s Brother” (Gal. 1:18), leads the donkey, with Blessed Mary and Jesus riding, while St Joseph strides along beside them, ready to defend if necessary.
            I love how the Eastern Church calls St James the Just “the Brother of GOD” — to emphasize the Incarnation. Of course, LORD (KYRIOS) = *GOD*, among 1st C. Jews. Think of JESUS in a “blended family”! — This relates to all times… GOD enters a human family… a home, a workplace, all our stresses & struggles… family relations, etc.

          • Woody

            Yes, these guys are even getting their founders PO’d:

            Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural
            fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

            SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

            SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That
            Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she
            later lost her virginity . . .”

            Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
            know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
            nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

            “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
            Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

            Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

            SOURCE: {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr.
            William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

            [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn
            from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man
            or woman will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

            SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol.

          • Randy

            Hi Julie,

            With respect, my faith has literally nothing to do with Zwingli, Luther or any other so-called reformer. Those I look to as my spiritual ancestors were being tortured and burned at the stake for such things as owning Bibles and teaching their children the Lord’s prayer in English (2 of the most common “crimes against the Church” punishable by death) long before Luther. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, that “it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast,” is not bound to any one institution. It is for all who through Jesus believe that “God credits righteousness apart from works” by simple, heart-felt faith in Christ’s resurrection.

            (Ephesian 2:8-9; Romans 4:6; 10:9-11).

            As for the true church of Jesus Christ, I agree with Augustine, that is not found in bishops or creeds, but in the communion of those who follow Christ by obeying God’s word. In his epic De Unitate (On the Unity of the Church) he rejects the institutional view of the church as mere “human evidence.” Augustine, as you may know, wrote more on the nature, unity and authority of the church than all the Fathers put together. Of Peter’s confession, the bishop writes:

            “Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He’s the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On hearing this, Jesus said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you’…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15–19).

            “In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ.

            “Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.” (Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1)

            In De Unitate, Augustine teaches that the authority of the Church is derived exclusively from the Scriptures, and is maintained only by faithfulness to them. Nothing else. (see quote below from Chapter 47)

            The book is written in response to a church in North African claiming to be “the one true church.” Here are just a few excerpts in which Augustine boldly proclaims the truth upon which the church is built is Scripture alone:

            But, as I had begun to say, let us not listen to “you say this, I say that” but let us listen to “the Lord says this.” Certainly, there are the Lord’s books, on whose authority we both agree, to which we concede, and which we serve; there we seek the Church, there we argue our case (Chapter 5).

            I do not wish the holy Church to be founded on human evidence, but on divine oracles [the Scripture] (Chapter 6).

            All such things then removed, let them demonstrate their Church, if they can, not in the speeches and murmurs of African, not in the councils of their bishops, not in the epistles of whatever debates, not in false signs and prodigies, since we are prepared and cautioned against them by the word of the Lord, but in the precept of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the songs of the psalms, in the utterances of the one shepherd himself, in the preaching of the evangelists, that is in all the canonical authority of the holy books, and not such that they might gather and cite things that are spoken obscurely or ambiguously or metaphorically which anyone might interpret according to his own opinion as he wishes. Such things cannot be properly understood and explained unless first those things that are said most openly are held with a strong faith” (ie, founded on “authority of the holy books). (Chapter 47).

            As for Mary, I have nothing but the highest regard for the one “blessed among women.” Along with my commitment to obey the words of Christ, who when rebuking Satan said, “Worship the Lord your God, and serve* Him only,” it is my respect for Mary, my sister in the Lord, that inspires me to protect her from idolatrous worship.

            Before you accuse me of doing harm to her reputation or honor, you should understand that the Roman Catholic Church did not pronounce Mary’s sinless birth, and the subsequent mandate to worship her, until well into the Middle Ages.

            It’s plain for all to see that the entire concept of the Immaculate Conception is missing from the earliest patristic sources. Mary does not enter into the picture for quite some time. In the first four centuries, the “Virgin Mother” for Christians was not Mary, but the church. The woman in Revelation 12 was not Mary, but the Church as well (see Hippolytus, On Christ and Antichrist, 61, V:217).

            We find controversies brewing over the concept of the Immaculate Conception a thousand years later, when the Dominicans and the Franciscans were at each other’s throats over the issue. At the time, Rome remained silent, following a middle course between the two sides. As late as the nineteenth century, we find the Roman Catholic bishop Milner saying:

            The Church does not decide the controversy concerning the Conception of the Blessed Virgin, and several other disputed points, because she [the Church] sees nothing clear and certain concerning them either in the written or unwritten Word, and therefore leaves her children to form their own opinions concerning them. (emphasis mine)
            (The Infallibility of the Church, p. 182).

            *The word for “serve” in Luke 4:8 is latreuo. It’s important to understand it is exclusively in the New Testament in reference to worshiping and serving God. All who are in Christ, including Mary, are sanctified by faith in Him and are therefore called “saints.” The triune God alone is worthy of worship and adoration in Scripture. The apostle John is for example rebuked by an angel in the book of Revelation for attempting to worship him.

            “But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
            (Rev. 22:9)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I see you’ve fallen into the false assertion that the “rock” was his confession. The is provably false from scripture itself. The first time Jesus met Simon, he prophesied that his name would be called Cephas, which means rock. Abram received a name change, and you have no problem in seeing that it signified that he had a huge important mission in God’s plan. Abraham is also referred to as the “rock”. Again, it’s ok for Abraham, but not Simon Peter. Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to the rock. Your refusal to call Peter the rock is from your bias, you don’t like the implication it carries. Besides being the rock, and the royal steward with the keys, Jesus also made Peter the shepherd of his flock, “feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep”. Peter alone brings the “catch” to shore, without a ‘schism’ in the net.
            Mary is the ark of the covenant, the queen mother of the Davidic King, and the new Eve, and a lot of this is evidenced from early writings. The church has never hastened to make dogmatic declarations until every nook and cranny has been investigated, and not until an already held belief is attacked. If you will read the end of chapter 11 into chapter 12 in the Book of Revelation, you will see that John had a vision of the Ark in heaven, in the temple, but, he describes the Ark as a “women clothed with the sun, with the moon at her feet, and on her head a crown (royalty) of 12 stars, she gave birth to a male child who was to rule the earth with an iron scepter. This iron scepter is mentioned way back in Genesis,49:9-10, and the woman is mentioned in Genesis 3:15, she will be in total enmity with the “serpent”, which means he has no hold on her. Recall that Jesus always referred to his mother as “woman”, and gave heras mother to His ‘beloved disciples’ while He was dying on the cross. Revelation 12, already provided, & Psalm 132:8 “Arise, Lord, come to your resting place, you and your mighty ark” confirms the Churches teaching on Mary’s assumption, also Psalm 99 “bow down before his footstool”, which is taken straight from 1 Chronicles 28:2 “a house of repose myself for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, the footstool for the feet of our God”.
            Luke’s account of the annunciation is packed with references of Mary being the Ark. Mary travels to the hill country of Judah in parallel to David taking the Ark to the hill country of Judah, Mary remains for 3 months in the House of Zechariah, the ark remained for 3 month in the house of Obeddedom. John the Baptist, by birthright a Levitical priest, “leapt” in his mothers womb, David, in his role of priest (only priests wore a linen ephod), danced and “leapt” for joy in the presence of the Ark. Mary was ‘overshadowed” by the Holy Spirit, the tabernacle with the ark in it was ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth exclaimed “how can the Mother of My Lord come to me”, David exclaims “How can the Ark of the Lord come to me.”
            The Davidic Kings, from Solomon forward, had their mothers as their Queen Mother, the Gebirah, the exalted Lady. After Solomon had been enthroned, his mother Bathsheba, enters the throne room, Solomon rises from his throne and bows, and has a seat to his right brought into his royal court for his mother. The queen mother interceded for the subjects of the King, exactly what Mary did at the wedding in Cana. It’s all there, you have to seek and study God’s Word to find all the nuggets in there. Seek and Ye shall find. You made a very grave error by saying that the Church made a ‘mandate to worship her” No worship of any creature is allowed in the church, it is grave sin to do so. Veneration does not equal worship. I’m sure you aren’t going to accuse King David of worshipping the ark when he danced and leapt for joy in its presence.
            Scripture itself declares the 12 apostles to be “foundations” of the church, with Jesus as the capstone, or cornerstone. The 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
            It’s all there, you have to seek God’s word to find all the nuggets in it.

        • Woody

          No–that is not what she means–she means while the Bible is beautiful and comforting to read, “self-interpretation” is not in Scripture and has resulted in over 37,500 Protestant churches all saying “Hey listen to me. I know what Jesus meant.” No,no don’t listen to him–come over to my church–I know what Jesus meant.” How about listening to the Church He Founded while on earth? All other churches were founded by “men” or “women” without any authority to do so, not even in the “Sola Scriptura.”

        • Woody

          Good idea–let’s hear it from a well known person on the Lord’s bro’s and this is why you get into trouble with your “self-interpretation of Scripture,”

          Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

          SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
          SOURCE: “A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . “.

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

          Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .”

          Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
          know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
          nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

          SOURCE: Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

          Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

          “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
          Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

          SOURCE: {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

        • Woody

          More convenient selection of Scripture, no mention of Jesus’ authority He gave “His” Church “Whatsoever you bind on earth I shall bind in heaven; whatsoever you loose upon earth I shall loose in heaven.” Pretty strong authority for without it – it would be like “Gee. I am going to set you up in a company, called General Motors; however you realize you will have no authority to make any changes…” How stupid would that be?

          Under Jesus’ command the Church could for instance;
          Move the Sabbath from Saturday vs Sunday (in honor of Our Savior rising from he dead..

          Have priest’s be Celibate which I believe was done in the 9th century -the Father would know..

          Make Christmas on the 25th of December
          Etc.,

          Again, these guys problems are that they are SOS Stuck on Scripture on everything,yet Sola Scriptura is not even in the Bible
          I notice that the Didache (the precursor to the Bible written in 70 AD) is not even mentioned in the Bible but it surely existed… and is extant today..
          The only authority in the Bible is from St. Paul (1 Timothy 3:15) where Scott Hahn asked his wife Kimberly, “what’s the pillar and foundation of Truth…?” She of course answered like a good Protestant, “…why Scripture of course.” “No–“it’s the Church…listen to the”Church!”

      • Woody

        Yes, “he has eyes but he does not see; ears but he does not hear,”

        He brings up my favorite verse, but I forget the wise man that said it”
        You know everything my Julie – was it Shakespeare?

        “Oh, what a tangled wed we weave when at first we practice to deceive.”

        Hey, are you trying to steal my thunder, “Bible-thumper?” i call them “Bible Jousters,” you know “my verse is better than your verse” crowd.

        The put on their skis and Sola Scriptura’ing across the world even though they cannot site any verse in Scripture that this is in; St. Paul says “listen to the Church…” to his wise friend, Timothy.

        God Bless

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Yes, it was Shakespeare. His literature is woven with phrases to show his indiscreet disapproval of Protestantism. “My lady you doth protest too much”, maybe not exact but close.
          I wouldn’t have replied so sternly to him, but when they (he’s not the only one) bring up priestly celibacy as ‘doctrines of demons’, they will get a pie in the face.

          • Woody

            Rapheal Sebastian

            By the way, Harvard’s Catholic community is holding an Eucharistic Holy Hour on May 12 at around the same time those satanists would be doing their deed.

            This is the statement released.

            In response to the black mass, the Catholic community at Harvard has announced that it is holding a Eucharistic Holy Hour on the evening of May 12 to correspond with the sch eduled satanic event.

            Senior chaplain Fr. Michael Drea said this will allow students to “focus on the goodness of our Eucharistic Lord” and seek the grace to be true “defenders of our faith and the sacramental life.”

            12:05 a.m., Saturday May 10 Reply to Rapheal Sebastian

          • Woody

            This was supposed to go to you-I told him thanks

            Rapheal Sebastian

            By the way, Harvard’s Catholic community is holding an Eucharistic Holy Hour on May 12 at around the same time those satanists would be doing their deed.

            This is the statement released.

            In response to the black mass, the Catholic community at Harvard has announced that it is holding a Eucharistic Holy Hour on the evening of May 12 to correspond with the sch eduled satanic event.

            Senior chaplain Fr. Michael Drea said this will allow students to “focus on the goodness of our Eucharistic Lord” and seek the grace to be true “defenders of our faith and the sacramental life.”

            12:05 a.m., Saturday May 10 Reply to Rapheal Sebastian

            Edit

            Reply

            Share ›

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I hope their adoration causes Harvard to literally tremble. I believe it was Jerome who wrote that during the Liturgy of the Eucharist when the “Great Amen” was pronounced that the nearby pagan temples trembled.

      • Woody

        How come you get in with all the whackos? Like a guy who pleads for
        Celibacy since he is a Protestant and will not be a priest anyway; I have never heard a priest complain about the celibate life in fact a few secretly told me “I’m sure glad i don’t have to deal with the “woman.”

        He was kidding of course. You seem to attract the uneducated, Julie, leave a few for me.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I don’t know!! They keep me covered up, can hardly come up for air to do things I’m wanting to do. I’ve got a live Muslim biting me now, how dare I call Mohammed a pedophile! This idiot was off about 6 centuries of when Mohammed lived! Went off into how our Bible is corrupted, blah, blah, blah.
          Do you know anybody that is a preterist? Oh my gosh, it’s the same battle as with these other guys and their doctrines. Nothing you show or prove to them will change their minds.

    • Woody

      Another guy who is anti Catholic and Jesus predicted that His Church would always be attacked just as Shoebat said the only open game today are charges against the Catholic Church which are just “made up.’ …”epidemic” in Catholicism? I can go all night–I note you show us no SOURCE as, widely the Shoe wants on his site because he “recognizes the evil of prejudice…”

      So here are stats from non-Catholic sources, and most are “anti-Catholic” but have produced reliable data:

      Stats; not Prejudice:

      Priests:

      According to a survey in the Washington Post (not a friend of the Catholic Church), less than 1.5% Of the estimated 60,000 or more men have been accused of child sexual abuse.

      New York Times (definitely not a friend of the Catholic Church) reported 1.8 % of priests from 1950-2001 have been “accused” of child sexual abuse.

      The Associate Press (no Arm of the Catholic Church) 2/3 of 1% have charges pending against them..

      Almost all priests who abuse children are homosexuals; (like there are no homosexuals in Protestant and Jewish churches).

      Dr. Thomas Plante, Psychologist at Santa Clara University found 80 – 90% of all priests who sexually abuse are actually adolescent boys or girls not prebescent children.

      USA Today – between 85 – 91% of victims were males, not females.

      While the Dallas Morning News has made the charge 2/3rd’s of the nations bishops have allowed priests “accused” of sexual abuse to continue working-but their definition includes such things as ‘ignoring warnings about suspicious behavior” to “criminal convictions.”

      So let us stick with the TRUTH as JESUS Commanded!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        If they stuck to the truth they would lose their playground, what fun would that be?

        • Woody

          Yah, I lost mine years ago-she divorced me.

  • richinnameonly

    I’ve seen abuse in other denominations that were always criticizing it in Catholicism. They did their best to hide theirs, including the use of payoffs. Seems to be everywhere to some extent.

    • Woody

      That is for sure; Protestants don’ collect statistics at the “pedophilia level” –they collect it mainly at the sexual abuse level, however, when I viewed the stats it is indeed at a much higher level than the Catholic levels (which is only at 1.7-2.7%; far in excess are “teachers, coaches, ministers (a lot at the sexual relations with a church member, married or not. That is why I have always said it is not a specific church problem–it is a societal problem…look today at the stupid things we (society) do, mandating that Boy Scout Troop leaders now have to hire Pedophiles and other closely related types; on another scale-last week just as the medical study came out that pot causes “brain damage,” we get a big push to “legalize” it – I lived with “potheads” for 2 years in D.C. and they were always in a fog and more than once I had rush one to the emergency room with “pat” whatever that is? Something to do with the heart rate going whacky.

    • Woody

      Yes, it is a Societal problem; unfortunately the churches suffer,too.

    • Proudvet56

      Yes, and worst of all they are not afraid of retribution except from other inmates if they are found out. In states run by bleeding heart liberals they rarely get put in general pop. When will people learn that Psychiatry, and human intellect can’t battle the works of Satan.

  • ✞Servant✞

    “I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people!” 1 Cor 5:11

    Does the Protestant Church teach pedophilia is okay? Does the Catholic doctrine teach pedophilia is okay? Does Islam teach pedophilia is okay? As far as I’m concerned, Islam teaches it is okay and good. Only God knows who is “more” pedophilic, for the sin is within a man, bringing forth rotten works. People need to hear the word of God and keep it!! How many times does the Lord have to warn of false teachers and false prophets, those claiming to speak on behalf of the Lord? And warn to stay away from those claiming the faith, but are wicked and not obeying the word of God?

    “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.” 2Ths3:6

    “But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.” 1 Tim 5:20

    • Woody

      You should know–you are one of them

    • H2o2Bill

      I really don’t see the complaints that are being launched in your direction. I can see how the verses you posted relate to this article.

      • Woody

        Ah, an enlightened Protestant-he figured out “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus
        Thank you, Jesus for sending us such educated and well-read Protestants as this person and for Scott and Kimberly Hahn and for their book, “Rome Sweet Home.”

        According to ancient Greek legend, the great warrior, Achilles,
        was invulnerable against attack, except for one area of weakness—his heel. That weakness would be exploited near the end of the Trojan War by Paris. As the story goes, he shot Achilles in
        the heel with an arrow, killing his seemingly undefeatable foe.

        Okay, so referring to Sola Scriptura as the Protestant Achilles’s
        Heel is not a perfect analogy. There are many weak spots in Protestant theology. But the use of the image of “Achilles’s Heel” in prose today is employed not only to accentuate a singular weakness in an otherwise impenetrable person or institution, but a particularly acute weakness. It is in that sense that I think the analogy fits.

        Sola Scriptura was the central doctrine and foundation for all I believed when I was Protestant. On a popular level, it simply meant, “If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!” And it seemed so simple. Unassailable. And yet, I do not recall ever hearing a detailed teaching explicating it. It was always a given. Unchallenged. Diving deeper into its meaning, especially when I was challenged to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism, I found there to be no book specifically on the topic and
        no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors.

        Once I got past the superficial, I had to try to answer real
        questions like, what role does tradition play? How explicit does a doctrine have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? How many times does it have to be mentioned in Scripture before it would be dogmatic? Where does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How do we know what the canon of Scripture is using the principle of sola scriptura? Who is authorized to write Scripture in the first place? When was the canon closed? Or, the best question of all: where is sola scriptura taught
        in the Bible? These questions and more were left virtually unanswered or left to the varying opinions of various Bible teachers.

        The Protestant Response

        In answer to this last question, “Where is sola scriptura taught
        in the Bible?” most Protestants will immediately respond as I did, by simply citing II Tm. 3:16:

        “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,
        for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

        “How can it get any plainer than that? Doesn’t that say the
        Bible is all we need?” Question answered.

        The fact is: II Timothy 3—or any other text of Scripture—does not even hint at sola scriptura. It says Scripture is inspired and necessary to equip “the man of God,” but never does it say
        Scripture alone is all anyone needs. We’ll come back to this text in particular later. But in my experience as a Protestant, it was
        my attempt to defend this bedrock teaching of Protestantism that led me to conclude: sola scriptura is 1) unreasonable 2) unbiblical and 3) unworkable.

        Sola Scriptura is Unreasonable

        When defending sola scriptura, the Protestant will predictably
        appeal to his sole authority—Scripture. This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy of circular reasoning which betrays an essential problem with the doctrine itself. One cannot prove the inspiration of a text from the text itself. The Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, writings of Mary Baker Eddy, the Koran, and other books claim inspiration. This does not make them inspired. One must prove the point outside of the text itself to avoid the fallacy of circular reasoning.

        Thus, the question remains: how do we know the various books of
        the Bible are inspired and therefore canonical? And remember: the Protestant must use the principle of sola scriptura in the process.

        II Tim. 3:16 is not a valid response to the question. The problems
        are manifold. Beyond the fact of circular reasoning, for example, I would point out the fact that this verse says all Scripture is inspired tells us nothing of what the canon consists. Just recently, I was speaking with a Protestant inquirer about this issue and he saw my point. He then said words to the effect of, “I believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth as Jesus said in Jn. 16:13. The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians and helped them to gather the canon of Scripture and declare it to be the inspired word of God.
        God would not leave us without his word to guide us.”

        That answer is much more Catholic than Protestant! Yes, Jn.
        16:13 does say the Spirit will lead the apostles—and by allusion, the
        Church—into all truth. But this verse has nothing to say about sola scriptura. Nor does it say a word about the nature or number of books in the canon. Catholics certainly agree that the Holy Spirit guided the early Christians to canonize the Scriptures because the Catholic Church teaches that there is an authoritative Church guided by the Holy Spirit. The obvious problem is my Protestant friend did not use sola scriptura as his guiding principle to arrive at his conclusion. How does, for example, Jn. 16:13 tell us that Hebrews was written by an apostolic writer and that it is inspired of God? We would ultimately have to rely on the infallibility of whoever “the Holy Spirit” is guiding to canonize the Bible so that they could not mishear what the Spirit was saying about which books of the Bible are truly inspired.

        In order to put this argument of my friend into perspective, can
        you imagine if a Catholic made a similar claim to demonstrate, say, Mary to be the Mother of God? “We believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and guided the early Christians to declare this truth.” I can almost hear the response. “Show me in the Bible where Mary is the Mother of God! I don’t want to hear about God guiding the Church!” Wouldn’t the same question remain for the Protestant concerning the canon? “Show me in the Bible where the canon of
        Scripture is, what the criterion for the canon is, who can and cannot write Scripture, etc.”

        Will the Circle be Unbroken?

        The Protestant response at this point is often an attempt to use
        the same argument against the Catholic. “How do you know the Scriptures are inspired? Your reasoning is just as circular because you say the Church is infallible because the inspired Scriptures say so and then say the Scriptures are inspired and infallible because the Church says so!”

        The Catholic Church’s position on inspiration is not circular. We do not say “the Church is infallible because the inspired Scriptures say so, and the Scriptures are inspired because the infallible Church says so.” That would be a kind of circular reasoning. The Church was established historically and functioned as the infallible spokesperson for the Lord decades before the New Testament was written. The Church is infallible because Jesus said so.

        “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, I shall bind in Heaven;
        whatsoever you shall loose, I shall loose in Heaven.” Under the early Jews law they well understood “binding and Loosing” to be able to change religious law.

        Having said that, it is true that we know the Scriptures to be inspired because the Church has told us so. That is also an historical fact.
        However, this is not circular reasoning. When the Catholic approaches Scripture, he or she begins with the Bible as an historical document–not as inspired. As any reputable historian will tell you, the New Testament is the most accurate and verifiable “historical document” in all of ancient history. To deny the substance of the historical documents recorded therein would be absurd. However, one cannot deduce from this that they are inspired. There are many accurate historical documents that are not inspired. However, the Scriptures do give us accurate historical information whether one holds to their inspiration or not. Further, this testimony of the Bible is backed up by hundreds of works by early Christians and non-Christian writers like Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, and more. It is on this basis that we can say it is an historical fact that Jesus lived, died, and was reported to be
        resurrected from the dead by over 500 eyewitnesses. Many of these eyewitnesses went to their deaths testifying to the veracity of the Christ-event (see Lk. 1:1-4, Jn. 21:18-19, 24-25, Acts 1:1-11, I Cr. 15:1-8).

        Now, what do we find when we examine the historical record?
        Jesus Christ—as a matter of history–established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith (see Mt. 16:15-18; 18:15-18. Cf. Eph. 2:20; 3:10,20-21; 4:11-15; I Tm. 3:15; Hb. 13:7,17, etc.). He said of his Church:

        “He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Lk. 10:16).

        The many books that comprise what we call the Bible never tell
        us crucial truths such as the fact that they are inspired, who can and cannot be the human authors of them, who authored them at all, or, as I said before, what the canon of Scripture is in the first place. And this is just to name a few examples. What is very clear historically is that Jesus established a kingdom with a hierarchy and authority to speak for him (see Lk. 20:29-32, Mt. 10:40, 28:18-20). It was members of this Kingdom—the Church—that would write the Scripture, preserve its many texts and eventually canonize it. The
        Scriptures cannot write or canonize themselves. To put it simply, reason clearly rejects sola scriptura as a self-refuting principle because one cannot determine what the “scriptura” is using the principle of sola scriptura.

        Sola Scriptura is Unbiblical

        Let us now consider the most common text used by Protestants to “prove” sola scriptura, II Tm. 3:16, which I quoted above:

        “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” [like poor Bill]

        The problem with using this text as such is threefold: 1. Strictly speaking, it does not speak of the New Testament at all. 2. It does
        not claim Scripture to be the sole rule of faith for Christians. 3. The Bible teaches oral Tradition to be on a par with and just as necessary as the written Tradition, or Scripture.

        1. What’s Old is Not New

        Let us examine the context of the passage by reading the two
        preceding verses:

        “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have
        firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood (italics added) you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.”

        In context, this passage does not refer to the New Testament at
        all. None of the New Testament books had been written when St. Timothy was a child! To claim this verse in order to authenticate a book, say, the book of Revelation, when it had most likely not even been written yet, is more than “a stretch.” That is going far beyond what the text actually claims.

        2. The Trouble With Sola

        As a Protestant, I was guilty of seeing more than one sola in
        Scripture that simply did not exist. The Bible clearly teaches justification by faith. And we Catholics believe it. However, we do not believe in justification by faith “alone” (Luther invention) because, among many other reasons, the Bible says, we are “justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24, emphasis added). Analogously, when the Bible says Scripture is inspired and
        profitable for “the man of God,” to be “equipped for every good work,” we Catholics believe it. However, the text of II Tim. 3:16 never says Scripture “alone.” There is no sola to be found here either! Even if we granted II Tm. 3:16 was talking about all of Scripture, it never claims Scripture to be the sole rule of faith. A rule of faith, to be sure! But not the “sole” rule of faith.

        James 1:4 illustrates clearly the problem with Protestant exegesis of II Tim. 3:16:

        “And let steadfastness (patience) have its full effect, that you
        may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.”

        If we apply the same principle of exegesis to this text that the
        Protestant does to II Tm. 3:16 we would have to say that all we need is
        patience to be perfected. We don’t need faith, hope, charity, the Church, baptism, etc.

        Of course, any Christian would immediately say this is absurd.
        And of course it is. But James’s emphasis on the central importance of patience is even stronger than St. Paul’s emphasis on Scripture. The key is to see that there is not a sola to be found in either text. Sola patientia would be just as much an error as is sola scriptura.

        3. The Tradition of God is the Word of God

        Not only is the Bible silent when it comes to sola scriptura, but Scripture is remarkably plain in teaching oral Tradition to be just as much the word of God as is Scripture. In what most scholars believe was the first book written in the New Testament, St. Paul said:

        “And we also thank God… that when you received the word of God
        which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God…” (I Thess. 2:13)

        II Thess. 2:15 adds:

        “So then, brethren, brethren, stand firm and hold to the “traditions”
        you have been taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

        According to St. Paul, the “spoken word” from the Apostles was
        just as much the “word of God” as was the later written word.

        Sola Scriptura is Unworkable

        When it comes to the tradition of Protestantism—sola scriptura—the silence of the text of Scripture is deafening. When it comes to
        the true authority of Scripture and Tradition, the Scriptures are clear.
        And when it comes to the teaching and governing authority of the Church, the biblical text is equally as clear:

        “If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone … But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you … If he refuses to listen … tell it to the “church;” and if he refuses to listen even to the “church,” let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Mt. 18:15-17)

        According to Scripture, the Church—not the Bible alone—is the
        final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith and discipline. What is the pillar and Foundation of Truth? Most Protestants will immediately answer, “The Word of God…” Not according to St. Paul:

        Timothy 1 3:15–…”it’s the Church.”

        But isn’t it also telling that since the Reformation of just ca. 480 years ago—a reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal
        principle—there are now over 33,000 denominations that have derived from it? Not at all in accord with Jesus command, “…that there be One.”

        For 1,500 years, Christianity saw just a few enduring schisms
        (the Monophysites, Nestorians, the Orthodox, and a very few others). Now in just 480 years we have this? I hardly think that when Jesus prophesied there would be “one shepherd and one fold” in Jn. 10:16, this is what he had in mind. It seems quite clear to me that not only is sola scriptura unreasonable and unbiblical, but it is unworkable. The proof is in the puddin’!

        If you liked this post and you would like to dive deeper into
        this topic and more, click here.

    • Betsy Ann

      I realize this article is about pedophilia/child abuse, etc., but I’d like to comment on another related issue in Protestant churches regarding the sinning person and not eating with them, and reproving them. I’m wondering if our appalling failure to speak up and DO something a LONG time ago might not be related to the good ol’ boys in, yes, the church who got away with cheating on their wives and being abusive to their wives. Didn’t we all hear ‘stories’ while growing up, and didn’t we hear about the wenches some men were married to so that it appeared that the men were actually the victims? I mean….if only she had (fill in the blank), she might not have gotten what was coming to her. Gotta keep the women in line, right? And so the church looked the other way and covered for the men, snickering about them, etc. I know, and it still hurts that my cheating ex was given lots of warm fuzzies, surrounded and supported by men, and one particular pastor looked the other way and admitted he ‘knew’. How could the man stand in the pulpit and preach and know that his church had a Deacon Board with an adulterous man on it? Same goes for the Deacons and others who knew. SMH And that’s why I suppose it is of no surprise to me that child abuse has likewise been covered up. God help us.

  • Stephen Dalton

    The lesson I get from this article is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. For centuries, Protestants have been sneering at us Catholics because of the Puritan pornography that told about the alleged sexual misconduct of priests, bishops, nuns, and others in the Catholic Church. What these self righteous fools didn’t realize is that there were always evil men and women among Christian people who’s behavior would cause the way of truth to be evil spoken of. Church history, from the time of the New Testament, is full of stories about the sexual misconduct of some of the clergy and the laity. BTW, celibacy, contrary to old Anti-Catholic smear propaganda, doesn’t produce sexual perversions. If it does, why are most pedophiles married men? Why so many stories about married Protestant ministers being adulterers, pedophiles, and other kinds of queers? Celibacy doesn’t produce sexual perversion, people who are already perverts become so-called celibate priests. What produces queers are dysfunctional families or seductions by other queers, whether they are clergy, laity, relatives, friends of the family or (rarely) strangers.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      “Let him that is without sin cast the first stone”. They threw the stone, and now should look at themselves in the mirror. Some of our friends here are refusing to accept any part that the protestant clergy has in the sex scandal.

      • Woody

        I had heard that in 1988 the homosexual community held a meeting where it was decided that the gays would enter the Catholic Church to try and bring it down especially (because of the heat they were getting on AIDs–and apparently that worked since no one even talks about that anymore–at the same meeting they decided to begin sleeping with women again to take the heat off of the AID’s epidemic which is heading for 50,000,000 dead by 2050; what a price to pay for a little “fun.”
        Recently to act as if this is a normal lifestyle they said they want to give blood..(discrimination) -Right- I had cancer in 1993 and I cannot give blood–you do not see me complaining about it.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          If that’s true it is really sick.

          • Woody

            Yah, I heard this so long ago–I do not know, but it does make sense, because even the timing is right–one does not even hear about the AIDs impact anymore; too bad so many died and will die. Did you see my post when I was trying to get info on the pro-life movement so I asked why if the Protestants are in it way we hear so little about it from the Press? Doesn’t it seem to you that we hear almost nothing about them even when the March on Washington occurs each January, now because I asked “a question which he did not really answer in full – he “parses” my question, calls me a liar even though I was grateful for the info. Am I crazy-even when I lived in DC site of the March – just across from Judy Brown who started the March catch this–“we both lived in Historic Dumfries, once rivaled the port of New York…whoa! Must have been back in 1642. All he wanted to do here play their favorite game “Pin the liar tale on a Catholic…”
            We are really getting some weirdos lately–the woman with her corset on too tight (Corset Lady); the geek woman who has made herself “god” and posts a retinue of self-aggrandizing scripture…(the Cleaning Lady), and old Bill who I thought was stable but must have had relapse.

            Cleaning Lady seems not to know that none of the Apostles was a woman?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They don’t ever bring up the verse where Jesus prayed for unity, to remain one, a city sitting on a hill shining, or when Jesus prayed for only Peter’s faith to fail not. Instead of attacking Islam and their beliefs, they spend all their energy attacking the Catholic Church and its beliefs: verse isolation, false rendition of history, omission of protestant black eyes, and like peroxide man distancing himself from Luther! He believes in sola scriptura and sola fide, but he’s not close to Luther! What a crock. If the shoe fits, wear it.

          • Woody

            He sure is–he is Luther “on Steroids,” but I’ll bet he don’t support him on Luther’s love for Mary:

            He will do the Chubby Checker “Twist” on this one…”
            What’s with these guys on their “selective verse philosophy” which is like selecting “which kind of cancer you want” as if they weren’t all bad.

            Yes, they ignore so much of Jesus’ truth, UNITY is definitely not one of their strong points; neither is James on Jesus’ teaching on Faith AND Works being required…
            OR Jesus saying we will be Judged on our “deeds” i.e., works..

            OR “once saved always saved…” despite St Paul saying , “we work out our Salvation “In fear and trembling…” does not sound like, as holy as he was, he sounds very confident, does he?
            OR the Rupture – Bill’s latest trip into the 1880’s which is found nowhere in Church History??
            OR the love (see below) the first Prots have for Mary–Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, and so on–they drift as does a ship without a rudder!
            Actually, their attack on Jesus’ Church only affirms the Truth of Jesus Church–He did say it would always be attacked.

            Luther:

            “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

            SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress
            Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons
            on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

            SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she
            later lost her virginity . . .”

            Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
            know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
            nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

            Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

            “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
            Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

            {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

            God Bless (oh, know as I am about to post I see the Cleaning Lady just below- yuk!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They almost always quote from Paul! No quotes from Jesus (in M.M.L.J), Peter, James, John, Hebrews, Jude, etc. They don’t quote these guys because it would upset their apple cart.

          • Woody

            Go get ’em Sweet Lips; for out of them flows the honey of Truth.
            Yes, Bill believes in the Rupture but he does not see that “Jesus” never even mentioned it once; if it were that important you think Our Master would have said it; but all we have is a “push” from a lone Minister John Darby, and it is foreign in the early Church, making its debut in 1830 (after a wild woman’s nightmare.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Jesus in fact says that His coming will be like the days of Noah. Noah wasn’t removed from the tribulation, but was taken before God’s wrath was poured out in the flood. Lot wasn’t removed from Sodom and Gomorra during the tribulation when wickedness reigned, but was delivered before God’s wrath was poured out. So it will be with us. We will be on earth through the tribulation, (are not are Christian brothers & sisters living through tribulation already, no one has been spared from it).
            It makes no sense that Christians are raptured before the Anti-Christ appears, who else is he going to torment and persecute-Atheists?
            Prior to God’s wrath being poured out is when the “rapture” occurs.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      Carl Jung, the Swiss (pro-Nazi) psychiatrist, is (I believe) responsible for much of the “agenda” and “animus” of the Left in promoting “tolerance” of sodomy. Jung states in his autobiography, “Septem Sermones ad Mortuos” (Seven Sermons to the Dead), that his principle psychiatric notions came to him in “a three-day seance in automatic writing.” Among these was his assertion that pagan shamans were “often” homosexuals; “so therefore” it was acceptable for Christian pastors to be. (Where is the logic in that???)
      Fact is, Jung’s father was a Zwinglian pastor, and Jung rejected his father, and his father’s religion (which he assumed was “all of Christianity”); Jung set out to undermine Christianity, to replace it with a modern form of Gnosticism. He used Christian terminology (which has confused many), but “impregnated it” with Gnostic meanings, in order to twist it, pervert it.
      Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams of OR have documented the facts that the Nazi movement adopted the pro-homosexual cult practices of Germany. See their book, “The Pink Swastika.” There was a deliberate “colonization” plan that was being pursued from Germany, to infiltrate British and American universities. From there, it has spread to many of our “main line” denominations.

      Of interest to many readers here will be Dr E. Michael Jones’ book, “Degenerate Moderns” (ca. 1992?) from Ignatius Press. It reveals how many “cultural leaders” have used a “cloak of science” to cover their own sinfulness, and perpetrate the permissiveness that pollutes our whole society today.

  • yahshua love’s you

    I find the church should talk more often about sex and intimacy because the world we live in today has gone mad totally mad sexually perverted and so on but let us the body of Christ be an example by first getting rid of some taboos and dirty mind sets shalom

  • Stephen Dalton

    Dephen, Baptist churches maybe “all independent” but the history of the Jack Hyles scandal shows that there are networks of corrupt Baptist ministers and laymen who do cooperate in moving and covering up for fellow ministers caught in illicit activities.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Only THOSE men who wish to be eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom, exactly as Jesus declared. These are the companions of the Lamb who have not defiled themselves with women, they are virgins and follow the Lamb wherever He goes, according to the Book of Revelation which I assume is in your Bible. Your declaration that “my church” will be a relic in 30-40 years makes void Jesus’ word that the Gates of Hell WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. Have the “independent Baptist churches” been in existence for near 2,000 years, or it the figure closer to 400 years? Good enough answer?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    I believe that Pope Paul VI’s encyclical ‘Humanae Vitae’ predicted the rise of sexual immorality & perversion with the advent of artificial birth control. History has proved his words to be true.

    • Kamau40

      Julie-
      I have a question that is somewhat off the subject above, do you think it is possible for a True Believer in the Lord to be a part of a church that teaches false doctrine or has a weak gospel message? What about a Lukewarm church which unfortunately describes most church’s in America? There are millions of people in America who are caught up in these types of churchs, but many also do not know anything about the dangers of Chrislam or Interfaith Dialogue; however, there are many who love God’s Word and have the genuine desire to apply God’s Word to their lives. I know it is not for us to judge them individually because none of us do not know their hearts only God does. Yet, the Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by knowing Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal Saviour and that the Holy Spirit will lead, protect and guide His people into all Truth.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Before we go into the entirety of your post, please provide the scripture that says “we are saved by knowing Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour”. Then the scripture that shows that the Holy Spirit will guide you in all truth. I think you are confusing what Jesus told His apostles, His church and applying it to yourself.

        • Kamau40

          Julie-

          There are many places and examples in the Bible, especially in the New Testament that teaches the importance of knowing Jesus Christ’s as one’s personal Saviour to be saved from their sins. For example, here are some of the verses that applies to us of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ: John 3:16-18, John 14:5-7(Thomas’s conversation with Jesus), John 14:15-31, Acts 4:12, Acts 10:43. Read also Romans 8&10 which Apostle Paul addresses the message of Salvation thru Jesus Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit who dwells inside of those who are Christ followers. There is no confusion of what Jesus taught and preached to His Apostles and to His church. The message of Hope and Salvation still very much applies to us today. The finishing work of Jesus Christ and thru His Blood that was shed for our sins has already been completed at the cross and thru Christ’s resurrection. Also, many of the prophets in the Old Testament also had a personal relationship with God before He sent His son to die on the cross for man’s sins. For example, Noah, Moses, Joshua, Jeremiah, David, Daniel, Nehemiah and many others were used greatly by God because they had a personal relationship with Him. I never said there is an actual verse from the Bible. To be clear I was just simply paraphrasing what the Bible teaches about the message of salvation thru Jesus Christ and not just applying the Word for my own purposes. Therefore, according to Matt 22:37-39, Jesus made it very simple for us “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” As James 2:14-26 teaches, faith and deeds should be inseparable in the life of the True Believer.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            While all this is true, they aren’t the means of entry into the covenant. Jesus, immediately after being baptized in the Jordan (in which the Spirit hovered over), explained to Nicodemus “No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit”. Immediately after this discourse, Jesus and the disciples go out baptizing, so there is no misinterpreting what Jesus was speaking of. On the day of Pentecost, Peter full of the Holy Spirit declared to all those gathered “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this promise (oath) is to you and to your children, and to those afar off.”
            Covenants are the means that God uses to bring people in familial relationship with Him. He wants all people to be ‘sons of God’. The only time Jesus mentioned the covenant was at the Last Supper, and He spoke those words over a cup of “wine”, which He had already prayed over to change it to blood.
            At Jesus’ death, blood and water flowed out from his side. Water baptism for entry into the covenant, drinking blood for keeping the covenant. This was prophesied of in the OT prophets. Ezekiel 36:25 “I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean” Zechariah 13:1 “On that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to purify from sin and uncleanness,” This fountain was the pierced side of Jesus on the cross.
            Now, the verses you’ve supplied are what we do, and how we conduct ourselves when we have entered the covenant.

          • Kamau40

            Everything you said is absolutely true and correct and Biblical. In fact, our church consistently teaches the importance of Water Baptism, Holy Communion in order to enter into the covenant relationship with God.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Awesome for your church. Many churches this day say you don’t have to be baptized, and there are some that submit to baptism, but they do not believe that it does anything, contrary to scriptures that say it “saves” you, or “forgives” sin.

          • H2o2Bill

            Colossians 2:12
            Buried with him in baptism,…. The apostle goes on to observe how complete and perfect the saints are in Christ; that they are not only circumcised in him in a spiritual sense, and the body of the sins of their flesh is put off, and removed from them, in allusion to the cutting off and casting away of the foreskin in circumcision; but that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation: Christ having died for their sins, was laid in the grave, where he continued for a while, and then rose again; and as they were crucified with him, they were also buried with him, as their head and representative; and all their sins too, which he left behind him in the grave, signified by his grave clothes there; and baptism being performed by immersion, when the person baptized is covered with water, and as it were buried in it, is a very significant emblem of all this; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and very fitly holds him forth to the view of faith in the state of the dead, in the grave, and points out the place where the Lord lay; and it is also a representation of our burial with him, as being dead to sin, to the law, and to the world, by him. This shows now, that baptism was performed by dipping, or covering the whole body in water, for no other form of administration of baptism, as sprinkling, or pouring water on the face, can represent a burial, or be called one; and this is what many learned interpreters own, and observe on this place:

            wherein also ye are risen with him; Christ is risen from the dead as the head and representative of his people, and they are risen with him; and their baptism is also an emblem of his and their resurrection, being administered by immersion, in which way only this can be signified; for as the going down into the water, and being under it, represents Christ’s descending into the state of the dead, and his continuance in it, so the emersion, or coming up out of the water, represents his rising from the dead, and that of his people in him, in order to walk in newness of life; for the apostle’s meaning is, that in baptism saints are risen with Christ, as well as in it buried with him: and this

            through the faith of the operation of God; that is, it is through faith that saints see themselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism is greatly assisting, where there is true faith; for otherwise, without faith, this ordinance will be of no use to any such end and purpose; and it is not any faith that will avail, but that which is of God’s operation; faith is not naturally in men, all men have it not; and those that have it, have it not of themselves, it is the gift of God; it is what be works in them, and by his power performs:

            who hath raised him from the dead; this is a periphrasis of God the Father, to whom the resurrection of Christ from the dead is generally ascribed; though not to the exclusion of Christ, and of the Spirit, who were also concerned; and is here added, partly to show in what respect faith, which is God’s work, has him for its object, as having raised Christ from the dead, who was delivered for offences, but is risen again through the power of God for justification, and whoever with his heart believes this shall be saved; and partly to show, that the same power is exerted in working true faith in the heart, as was put forth in raising Christ from the dead. John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
            Dr. John Gill (1690-1771)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So your belief is that it has to be by immersion, which happens to be contrary to Ezekiel 36:25 which says “I will sprinkle (some versions say pour) clean water upon you to make you clean.” You have not only scripture but all of documented Christian history as witness against your theory.
            Let’s look at a few hypotheticals regarding the form of baptism: 1. Person on his deathbed wants to convert to Christianity, is he not baptized if water is sprinkled or poured on him and the Trinitarian formula used ? 2. Missionaries in the desert, or in the Artic tundra, with no springs or rivers of water available, sprinkles or pours water on the person using the Trinitarian formula on those who wish to convert, is he not baptized?
            Regarding age: Scripture provides 3 occurrences where entire households were baptized, Acts 16:15 “she was baptized, with all her household, Acts 16:33 “he and his household were baptized at once”, 1 Cor 1:16 “I baptized the household of Stephanos.”
            Documented Christian history reveals too that infants were baptized.
            Origen circa 244 AD “the church received from the Apostles the tradition of baptizing infants.”
            St. Hippolytus of Rome circa AD 215 “Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.”
            St. Cyprian, Council of Carthage 252 AD condemned the opinion that newborns must wait until the 8th day like OT circumcision.
            Anyone who chooses to believe in a doctrine invented by a Johnny-come-lately vs those who have direct descent from the Apostles themselves by the laying on of hands, does so at their own peril.

          • Kamau40

            Yes, praise the Lord. Unfortunately, there are many chruchs here in the US that don’t preach or teach about the importance of Baptism or Holy Communion anymore. Which saddens my heart. Nevertheless, it is all part of obedience to scripture. I pray all of the time that our church stays faithful to the teachings of sound or healthy doctrine that Apostle Paul taught in many of his Epistles. For example, the great Apostle Paul taught his protégé Timothy to teach and preach sound doctrine in the books of I&II Timothy. I will discuss more later. Now, I wanted your insights about church’s that teach weak gospel messages which of course they are very vulnerable to the ever creeping Islamic Ideology which is very scary. There are many who have never heard these terms, Ecumenism, Interfaith Dialogue or Crislam. I have just started hearing and learning about these terms and what they are just a couple of years ago. Yet there are many who are in these pulpits, for example, Rick Warren as a case in point, who teach this stuff in these types of chruchs. Is it possible that God has True Believers in these church’s who are not aware of these terms? If I don’t hear from you, and you are a mother, have a Happy Mother’s Day.

          • Kamau40

            Yes indeed!! If you are a mother, have a Happy Mother’s Day. God bless to you and your family.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Same to you.

          • H2o2Bill

            Colossians 2:12

            Having been buried with him in baptism (suntaphentes autōi en tōi baptismati). Second aorist passive participle of sunthaptō, old word, in N.T. only here and Rom_6:4, followed by associative instrumental case (autōi). Thayer’s Lexicon says: “For all who in the rite of baptism are plunged under the water, thereby declare that they put faith in the expiatory death of Christ for the pardon of their past sins.” Yes, and for all future sins also. This word gives Paul’s vivid picture of baptism as a symbolic burial with Christ and resurrection also to newness of life in him as Paul shows by the addition “wherein ye were also raised with him” (en hōi kai sunēgerthēte). “In which baptism” (baptismati, he means). First aorist passive indicative of sunegeirō, late and rare verb (Plutarch for waking up together), in lxx, in N.T. only in Col_2:12; Col_3:1; Eph_2:6. In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ’s own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity. He has just given the spiritual interpretation to circumcision which itself followed Abraham’s faith (Rom_4:10-12). Cf. Gal_3:27. Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart “through faith” (dia tēs pisteōs).
            In the working of God (tēs energeias tou theou). Objective genitive after pisteōs. See note on Col_1:29 for energeia. God had power to raise Christ from the dead (tou egeirantos, first aorist active participle of egeirō, the fact here stated) and he has power (energy) to give us new life in Christ by faith.
            WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT by Archibald Thomas Robertson

            Baptism
            Baptism. It is well known that ablution or bathing was common in most ancient nations as a preparation for prayers and sacrifice or as expiatory of sin. In warm countries, this connection is probably even closer than in colder climates; and hence the frequency of ablution in the religious rites throughout the East. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the rite or ordinance by which persons are admitted into the Church of Christ. It is the public profession of faith and discipleship.
            Baptism signifies —
            1. A confession of faith in Christ;
            2. A cleansing or washing of the soul from sin;
            3. A death to sin and a new life in righteousness.
            The mode and subjects of baptism being much-controverted subjects, each one can best study them in the works devoted to those questions. The command to baptize was co-extensive with the command to preach the gospel. All nations were to be evangelized; and they were to be made disciples, admitted into the fellowship of Christ’s religion, by baptism. Mat_28:19.
            It appears to have been a kind of transition from the Jewish baptism to the Christian. The distinction between John’s baptism and Christian baptism appears in the case of Apollos, Act_18:26-27, and of the disciples at Ephesus mentioned Act_19:1-6. We cannot but draw from this history, the inference that in Christian baptism, there was a deeper spiritual significance. Smith’s Bible Dictionary by Dr. William Smith (1884)

            Baptism, Christian
            An ordinance immediately instituted by Christ (Mat_28:19, Mat_28:20), and designed to be observed in the church, like that of the Supper, “till he come.” The words “baptize” and “baptism” are simply Greek words transferred into English. It means to dip a thing into an element or liquid. In the LXX, the Greek version of the Old Testament, it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the Mosaic law. These were effected by immersion, and the same word, “washings” (Heb_9:10, Heb_9:13, Heb_9:19, Heb_9:21) or “baptisms,” designates them all. Moreover, all of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Act_2:38-41; Act_8:26-39; Act_9:17, Act_9:18; Act_22:12-16; Act_10:44-48; Act_16:32-34) suggests the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, i.e. by immersion.
            Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are the two symbolical ordinances of the New Testament. The Supper represents the work of Christ, and Baptism the work of the Spirit. As in the Supper a small amount of bread and wine used in this ordinance exhibits in symbol the great work of Christ, so in Baptism the work of the Holy Spirit is fully seen in the water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
            The apostles of our Lord were baptized with the Holy Ghost (Mat_3:11) by his coming upon them (Act_1:8). The fire also with which they were baptized sat upon them. The extraordinary event of Pentecost was explained by Peter as a fulfillment of the ancient promise that the Spirit would be poured out in the last days (Act_2:17). He uses also with the same reference the expression shed forth as descriptive of the baptism of the Spirit (Act_2:33). In the Pentecostal baptism “the apostles were not dipped into the Spirit, nor plunged into the Spirit; but the Spirit was shed forth, poured out, fell on them (Act_11:15), came upon them, sat on them.”
            The subjects of baptism. This raises questions of greater importance than those relating to its mode.
            The controversy here is not about “believers’ baptism,” for that is common to all parties. Believers were baptized in apostolic times, and they have been baptized in all time by all the branches of the church. It is altogether a misrepresentation to allege, as is sometimes done by Baptists, that their doctrine is “believers’ baptism,” Every instance of adult baptism, or of “believers’ baptism,” recorded in the New Testament (Act_2:41; Act_8:37; Act_9:17, Act_9:18; Act_10:47; Act_16:15; Act_19:5, etc.) is just such as would be dealt with in precisely the same way by all branches of the Protestant Church, a profession of faith or of their being “believers” would be required from every one of them before baptism. The point in dispute is not the baptism of believers, but whether the infant children of believers, i.e., of members of the church, ought to be baptized. These Dictionary topics are from M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1897.

        • H2o2Bill

          (Rom 10:8-13) But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.”
          Capital Letters indicate a quote from the Old Testament.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why do you omit Jesus’ words “NO ONE can see the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit”? Jesus said NO ONE. Why do you omit Peter’s words on the day of Pentecost?
            “Repent and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS”. You don’t believe in baptism as a requirement to enter into the covenant, which is the kingdom, so you omit the means of entering into the covenant and pick up with the verses obviously pertaining to people who are in the covenant. Jesus last instructions to his Apostles “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you.”

          • H2o2Bill

            Being born of water is not a reference to baptism. I would have thought you being a woman might understand this. Here lets have a look.
            John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

            The following verse explains in a most clear way does it not? I followed my Lord in baptism it was a outward expression of what happened to me on the inside. I was born of water the flesh in Valparaiso IN in 1963 I was born again in 1984 of the Spirit.

            Act 16:30-31 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

            Act 2:21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

            (All Capital Letters Indicate a Quote from the Old Testament)

            (Act 8:34-38) The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

            We see belief first then baptism. I didn’t omit anything at all. Believers are commanded to be baptized and to baptize.

            (1Co 1:14-17) I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

            I see no reason what so ever to say these next verses can be posted and stand on their own within the intended context of the teaching.

            Rom 10:6-17 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), (7) or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” (8) But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; (10) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; (13) for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (14) How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (15) How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” (16) However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ( All Capital Letters Indicate a Quote from the Old Testament)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The problem you have, is you don’t read in context, being a ‘woman’, and a Catholic, I do, and we read the New Covenant in light of the Old. Jesus had just submitted Himself to the waters of baptism, and the Holy Spirit, the dove, descended on him. Prior to this event, John had been baptizing in Bethany across the Jordan. Immediately after Jesus’ baptism, He and the disciples go out “baptizing” 1 Peter 3:20 “and Noah and his family, that is, 8 souls, we saved through water. This pre-figured BAPTISM, WHICH NOW SAVES YOU.” You should take some time and study covenants. Entry into the Old Covenant was through circumcision. Entry into the New Covenant is through Baptism. You can deny it all you want, but your beliefs don’t change God’s plan. “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.” “Those who accepted his message were baptized and about 3,000 persons were added that day.” How were they ‘added’?

          • H2o2Bill

            This has turned into a one way conversation with you speaking to me rather than a two way conversation. You choose not to address what I write so this so called discussion has drawn to a close.

            The ark is a type of Christ a shadow so they had to be in Christ before they went through the waters of baptism.

            What happens prior to a woman having a baby concerning water?

            Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:5-6)

            “The Bible says what it means and means what it says.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            One way? Because you don’t like what the Bible says? The ark would be more paralleled to the Church. God had had Noah “build” the ark, Jesus “built” His church.
            So, do you imply that someone that is birthed is saved through the waters of childbirth? If so, you are dead wrong. Was not Nicodemus born through the waters of childbirth?
            You don’t like matter being used to convey spirit. That is the mistake the gnostics made.

          • H2o2Bill

            I have had enough your not even trying probably because you are unable to defend your own teaching from Scripture.

            Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:5-6)

            “The Bible means what it says and says what it means.”

            Gnostic? Give me a break your grasping at straws trying to divert the attention to something else. I never said anyone was saved because they were born as a baby in the flesh.

            Here more context,
            (Joh 3:3-6) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

            You don’t have to be a theologian to understand that it’s straight forward and not my fault it goes against your beliefs. The Bible holds a giant trump card over your beliefs and my beliefs. The Bible holds a giant trump card over the Catholic Church and the Bible has more authority than the words of the Pope even when he is sitting in his special chair. The Bible is the word of God that tells the story of the Word of God.

            Why are you making this so hard?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I fail to see how you interpret John 3, the only interpretation is the Jesus is speaking of Baptism.
            The bible and the early church fathers hold a trump card against your thinking that a second baptism is required.

          • Woody

            The Bible does not say anything; my 4 Bibles are in the house, and I go through the entire Bible (90%) every 3 years; but unlike you who has been given no authority to “interpret” the Bible by anyone; you just fling your selection of verses toward persons which you have already selected to affirm a preconceived error like the Rapture dating from 1830. Paul says “listen to the Church which is the Pillar and foundation of Truth” — not Bill who came along 1517 years after Jesus and the Apostles.

          • Kamau40

            Julie,
            To further add, look what Jesus said to Simon Peter regarding His church in Matt 16:17-19 quoting from the NIV, “Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome it.” The gentleman above is totally neglecting what scripture says and making it say what he wants. Great response.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            God spoke through Simon’s mouth, it was not from Simon’s own flesh and blood, therefore, the “confession” that the anti- Peter-is-the-rock crowd has, holds no water. Besides that, Simon was called Peter almost every time from this point forward.

          • Kamau40

            Exactly, he is not reading the subject of Baptism and importance when it comes to the convent both in the old and new in its proper context.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He sure isn’t, he is applying his unauthorized interpretation, actually, he is taking the interpretation of the Ana Baptists, and means again. Scripture says one baptism, and no one, enter the kingdom of heaven without it. Now that I’ve said that, I do believe that what God makes binding on us, is not binding on Him. He can work outside the plan he laid out for us to follow.

        • Kamau40

          Julie,
          Now, what are your insights to the first part of the blog below I wrote you about True Believers who are in church’s across America who don’t know about the dangers of Crislam or Interfaith Dialogue? My concern is that there are many Christians who are unaware of this problem of Islamic Ideology creeping into many churchs:

          I have a question that is somewhat off the subject above, do you think it is possible for a True Believer in the Lord to be a part of a church that teaches false doctrine or has a weak gospel message? What about a Lukewarm church which unfortunately describes most church’s in America? There are millions of people in America who are caught up in these types of churchs, but many also do not know anything about the dangers of Chrislam or Interfaith Dialogue; however, there are many who love God’s Word and have the genuine desire to apply God’s Word to their lives and do good deeds. I know it is not for us to judge them individually because none of us do not know their hearts only God does.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I do believe there are true believers in a lot of places, but, how or through what process does God reconciles everybody in the end is only known to Him alone. 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Peter 3:18-20, give us clues how He might act in the end.

      • Woody

        Almost there but the Bible does not say “on Faith alone..” this was Luther’s a mere man’s premise…both Faith and “Works” are required – Jesus says He will judge us on our “deeds.” (works)
        God Bless

        • Kamau40

          Absolutely correct!! The Bible clearly teaches that faith and deeds go together(James 2). There is no doubt that faith and works is demonstrated throughout the whole Bible. In our group,we have actually been studying the book of James for the past month. Unfortunately, many churchs’ in America has totally missed this very important principle, but very basic concept.

          • Woody

            Yes, they struggle with many things; keep them in your prayers that they will someday, “Know the Truth and the Truth will set them free.”
            God Bless

    • Kamau40

      By the way, I enjoy reading your blogs because I am learning a lot from you and Walid regarding history. I can tell you both particularly have great insight regarding Islam and church history altogether. I want to learn and increase my knowledge and understanding of the Bible and church history. Have you have a copy and have you read Walid Shoebat’s books God’s War On Terror, Islam, Prophecy and the Bible” and “The Case for Islamophobia?” If not, I highly urge you to GET THEM. They are very compelling and they explain from a Biblical perspective everything that is happening in both America and our world. I have learned more about the Bible and what God teaches than what any seminary school would have taught me. You guys have been a true blessing to me.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Walid is awesome, truly being used by God. I have the 2 books you mentioned, plus Why I left Jihad, and also Ted’s book “In Satan’s Footsteps”, it is amazing as well. I’ve always loved to learn, I wished I had started studying church history and the Bible earlier than I did. Better late than never! If you would like a short concise history of the early church, order the DVD “Apostolic Fathers” by Steve Ray. Steve was raised Baptist, and converted to the Catholic Church in 1994 after studying the early church fathers. Some of his teachings are on youtube.

        • Kamau40

          Great, I will check out those resources.

        • Kamau40

          Julie-
          This looks like a great website link by Steven Ray for me to get a short concise history of the early church for me to use and study. Please check out this link and share your thoughts with me. If you can think of any other short concise resource(s) to help me to increase knowledge for me to have or use they would be greatly appreciated.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Michael Cumbie (The Micah Project) has a DVD set available “This is Our Faith”. He is on youtube too -and Karlo Broussard, Jimmy Akin, many more, all good.

          • Kamau40

            Sounds great! Thank you so much for the reply and the recommended resources.

          • Kamau40

            At some point, need you’re insight(s) regarding the Catholic Church. Here is a response from Mike Ramirez:

            Ted, Islam and the Catholic Church have been working together for quite some time and what you write about is only the start of increased religious assimilation between the RCC and Islam.
            For example, a few months ago I posted on one of the shoebat blogs that a local Catholic Church and an Islamic Mosque conducted an “Interfaith Dialogue” seminar that was open to the public. There was a video presentation titled “St. Francis & The Sultan”. I attended with the intention of hoping to participate in a question and answer session afterward. Several Muslims were present along with an overflow crowd of parishioners and non-Catholic attendees. The parish hall filled to capacity and another meeting room holding about 70 people had to be opened up to accommodate the turnout. I was in the overflow room. They even served Turkish cuisine for a sample of Middle Eastern culture.

            The video-documentary was well produced and told the story of the 5th Crusade in 1217. It centered around St. Francis of Assisi and Sultan Malek al Kamil engaging in dialogue that eventually led to “peace” during that period. Prior to the video being shown, a Muslim representative addressed the crowd and stated that Islam and Christianity worship the “same God” and that they were being invited to learn more about Islam by visiting the nearby Mosque after the video. Also, within the video story of how St. Francis of Assisi and the Sultan came to a mutual understanding, the narrator in the video also stated that Islam and Christianity worship the “same God”.
            When the presentation was over, we were asked to wait and allow people from the parish hall to have a chance to leave and clear the parking lot.

            There was no question and answer session forthcoming so I raised my hand and the Sister in charge acknowledged me. I stood up and said,
            “We were told this evening that Islam and Christianity worship the same God. However, in the Qur’an, it states “Christians call Christ the son of Allah, Allah’s curse be on them” (009.030) and the Qur’an also states, “Never did Allah take to himself a son” (023.091)…So if Allah has no son and Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God, how can we be worshipping the same God?” This took the Sister by surprise and she said, “And with that we can all be dismissed and answer later.”

            The point is, Islamic leaders and public-relations groups are pushing inter-faith dialogues in all churches but it appears they are mostly concentrating on Catholic and the priests are opening their doors wide open for the parishioners to be sold on Islam.
            Now I understand why Pope Francis chose his papal name. He will be instrumental in engaging and assimilating the two faiths (RCC and Islam) to interact with Jewish leaders in bringing about a “peaceful solution” that will allow for the Palestinian state to take place. It also appears that Jewish leaders will cave in through political pressure and go along with the plan.

            Interesting/prophetic things will be happening in the very near future.

  • Woody

    There is enough to go around–it is called SIN:

    Protestant’s do not collect stats on sexual abuse of
    children, only sexual abuse in general. This way they can point to the only Church which is doing something about it–called Prejudice which is more evil

    Thus the data has to come from their Insurance companies:

    1984 – survey – 38.6 % had sexual conduct with a member; 76% knew of another Minister who had sexual intercourse with a member.

    1990- 1992 Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith
    and Ethics in Chicago, 10 – 25% admitted some sexual contact with a member. In 1992, 37% of Minsters admitted the same.

    1993 Journal of Pastoral Care 14% of Southern Baptist
    Minsters said they had engaged in “inappropriate behavior with a church member. 70% said they knew of a Minister who had the same.

    Trull – 1993 book Ministerial Ethics found 30-35% of Ministers of all denominations to having sexual relationships (touching and intercourse)

    Baptist General Convention in Texas: (2000)- 12% of
    Ministers “sexual intercourse” while “inappropriate beavior,” 40% (1980s)

    Pornography – Ministers (20%0

  • Woody

    So True; it is a “societal” problem, unfortunately..

  • Proudvet56

    Again, great stuff. One of the rare “good things” to come out of msnbc was the series “To catch a predator”. When I was home(I worked nights) I would have my daughter watch that with me. They did an excellent job. They didn’t do bias editing. Any perv that showed up got exposed. Most importantly my daughter learned a lot from the show. Thanks again Shoebat foundation for a well written, and thorough report.

  • H2o2Bill

    I think you are on target with your comment. It certainly is a driving force behind some of it that is for sure.

  • Ray

    More sexual abuse in the protestant churches? At least here we have some detailed investigation of protestant churches. From the Catholic side, all I have ever read is an apology from the Pope but never any investigation or any sort of report into it’s extent. It’s all kept under wraps. You need to do some independent reading to find out that it has been rampant in the Catholic church ever since.

  • Pingback: sex-money-politics - The Gospel of Barney()

  • Ken Masters

    Religion is in a sad fucking state if a journalist is writing ‘which denomination is worse’ [and therefore which is not as bad]