The Ottoman Muslim League Between Turkey And The Arab Gulf States Is Forming. The Sunni Crescent Is Emerging Alongside The Shiite Crescent In Fulfillment Of Bible Prophecy

By Walid Shoebat (Shoebat Exclusive)

When it comes to the Bible and Christ’s Second Coming, we do not find any mention of New York City, Tokyo, or Paris, but Egypt, Libya, Elam (Iran), Lydia (Turkey), Yemen, Arabia and Jerusalem.

Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.

– Ezekiel 30:5 King James Bible “Authorized Version”, Cambridge Edition

 

Staying focused on these nations, Ezekiel speaks of them coming as a “league”. And while looking at the current news this week, we have had successive and escalating developments in the Turkish-Gulf relations effecting  regional, military and geopolitical impact as we have seen the latest visit paid by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The most important is the recent signing of a military cooperation agreement between Turkey and Qatar allowing the deployment of joint forces in both countries. The coming days may see the signing of memorandums and similar agreements with the rest of the other Gulf states, according to Turkish officials.

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The remarkable rapprochement between Turkey and Saudi Arabia following the visit of Erdogan is expected to be followed by a planned visit by Saudi King Salman Bin Abdul Aziz to Turkey.

But every time a government pimps with certain Islamists in order to thwart other Islamists, the end results always comes at a loss for the pimp. For example, the Saudis thought they were being smart when they have given the green light to the Shiite Houthis to fight terrorism and undermine the Muslim Brotherhood in Yemen. The policy backfired and today Houthi actions seek to control all of Yemen becoming a threat to Saudi Arabia. The Houthis responded swiftly to Saudi policy launching the first direct flight from Tehran to Sanah. And there is talk of more surprises on the way for Saudi Arabia. Yemen is thus expected to witness more bloodshed against the backdrop of the regional conflict.

And this week, Saudi Arabia in a desperate move is using its heft as leader of the Sunni Muslim world by seeking Turkey  for a formation of a Sunni military alliance, regardless that Turkey is a regional competitor. This new development is a reversal of its historical attitude, Saudi Arabia wants to co-opt Turkey under a banner of a coordinated effort to form a Sunni crescent, in opposition to Iran’s Shiite crescent, and to the ISIS threat. This too, like its flirtation and pimping the Houthis in Yemen to thwart the Brotherhood will end up transforming Saudi Arabia into a prostitute of Turkey.

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This second policy by Saudi Arabia, to create a Turkish-gulf league, is preferring Turkey over Egypt. This  will backfire. This policy was just dispatched by the new Saudi regime directed first at Egypt. King Salman planed to temper the political and financial zeal shown by the late King Abdullah towards Cairo by not allowing Egypt or Syria to return to their old Arab leadership role. Leaked phone conversations between the Egyptian president and his military leaders are not likely to be forgotten in the Gulf anytime soon, just as it has not been forgotten that Syrian president Bashar al-Assad once called several Saudi leaders “half men.” It was the Turkey-based Egyptian satellite TV channel Mekameleen that leaked audio recording that purports to show Al-Sisi and senior aides being derisive of their rich Gulf donors.

Any policy to weaken these two nations, Syria and Egypt, which is also the focus of the U.S. in alienating these two will eventually backfire. When it comes to Middle East policy, it is always best to work with Arab states struggling not to get consumed, rather than work with Iran and Turkey who will only fight ISIS in order to consume. Saudi Arabia needs Egypt and Turkey politically and militarily in its confrontation with Iran more than with its fear of ISIS.

But the problem for Saudi Arabia, Syria and Egypt is that Turkey and the U.S. both major powers support the Muslim Brotherhood, the archenemy of the Egyptian government specifically and it is Turkey that continues to revive it. Both Turkey and the U.S. realize that the Muslim Brotherhood is key to influencing the Muslim world since they hold the Muslim scholarly realm. It is this that ISIS does not control which without, ISIS can never catapult itself to be ordained as grand Caliphate of the Muslim world. The Muslim Brotherhood is the dynamo behind the establishment of an Islamic hegemony, the dream of Erdogan’s Ottoman aspirations. Such a dream can never be accomplished throughout the Middle East without the Muslim Brotherhood. Therefore, Erdogan and Sisi will remain enemies as long as the Egyptian president continues to pursue the Muslim Brotherhood which today he executed one Mahmoud Ramadan and plans to execute 528 more.

Turkey is furious over the executions. The Egyptian-Turkish antagonism will prove to be the most difficult issue for Saudi Arabia which is trying to become the center of a regional mobilization against the Iranian project, with its rising momentum from Iraq to Yemen, down to the military changes taking place on Syria’s northern and southern fronts.

And if inviting the Houthis was bad policy that backfired for the Saudis, allowing the Muslim Brotherhood a re-entry into Saudi sphere to please Turkey will force Saudi Arabia to abandon Egypt.

History will prove that when it comes to U.S. policy with Syria and Egypt, by alienating these two  Washington has damaged the regional balance to a point of no return, especially by making deals with Iran which will only escalate the entire region to rush into nuclear empowerment in order to deal with the Iranian crisis.

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The isolation of Egypt and Syria plays into Erdogan’s Neo-Ottoman plans making Turkey the guardian of the Arab Gulf states. This week, Saudi Arabia wants to co-opt Turkey under a banner of coordinated Sunni opposition to Iran and to ISIS. This proposal carries the potential for the Saudis to rely on Turkish rather than Egyptian military as they already see the unreliable and distant backer in the United States.

Turkey’s cunningness can now be seen as to why, in the past, it did not cyber rattle with Iran. Regardless that Iran has gained momentum with its expansion for its sphere of influence, Turkey knew that sooner or later, Arabia will call for help. What we are witnessing is the construction of a Turkish-Gulf league that arose out of Saudi fear from Iran more than its fears of Turkey’s Ottoman dreams to re-control the region. This will leave Egyptian commander Abdel Fattah al-Sisi in further isolation mounting a convergence of interface between the Gulf and Qatar, countries on the one hand, and the convergence of the same countries, especially Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, with opposition to the Egyptian coup against the Muslim Brotherhood. This will heal the wounded head of the Muslim Brotherhood and present an amalgamation of several Sunni Islamist states.

Turkish President Erdogan had expected Saudi Arabia to take a step that will bring about changes in the Egyptian government, describing the kingdom as the most influential when it comes to the Egyptian affairs of State; especially since the January 25th Revolution of Egypt in 2011.

In the qualitative development turkey announced that the Committee ratified a number of draft laws, including the “military cooperation agreement” between Turkey and Qatar which includes military training, deployment of joint forces and joint military exercises which we will witness the signing of similar agreements with other Gulf states. Turkey is again pushing the various competing centers of Arab authority to coalesce into a more capable military union, nearly a century after Sharif Hussein ibn Ali’s initial revolt against the Ottomans which allowed the United Kingdom and France to redraw the boundaries of Al-Mashriq Al-Arabi — the Arab lands to the east of Egypt — and create the fractious and unstable Arab states we see today. By this the Ottoman Humpty Dumpty looks much closer than ever.

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Sharif Hussein ibn Ali

 

Many western analysts missed the true reasons behind the recent Turkish-Gulf relations thinking that the proposed scenario that Cairo and Riyadh are clearly anxious to combat ISIS and to thwart Iran. While this is true, to Turkey it is using ISIS and Iran to play as a chip to advance the neo-Ottoman game. While the ISIS threat is true, Turkey does not fear Iran as much as it desires an Ottoman hegemony which ISIS plays a crucial role that Arab fear demands calling 911: Turkey for Saudi Arabia and Iran for Iraq.

In the Middle East, politicians fear the religious institutions most. Announcing a Caliphate is under the authority of the Union of Muslim Scholars led by the Muslim Brotherhood, which only it represented the decision making power in the Muslim world. This is why Turkey is in bed with the Muslim Brotherhood while it has its eyes on Arabia gaining not only Muslim Brotherhood blessing for its new revival of a grand Caliphate, but now the Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia as well are giving the Ottomans blessings from Zamzam.

Turkey’s goal is to eventually establish a military alliance involving Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates. But such goal can never be established with the Al-Sisi’s anti Muslim Brotherhood current government. Is it no wonder why Antichrist finally has to invade Egypt (Daniel 11).

The Gulf states realizes that despite their wealth, they are still vulnerable and continuing to depend on the United States to guarantee their security no longer appears tenable given the possibility of a broader U.S.-Iranian rapprochement.

In the end, it matters little what Muslim divides exist between Shiite vs. Sunni, Wahhabi ISIS vs.  Wahhabist Saudis, Brotherhood vs. Wahhabist. Indeed, all this matters to some extent. These will always divide. Nothing can unite the Muslim world, not even Allah and Muhammad or even their direction of prayer and pilgrim can unite them. It is not the black stone, but the burdensome stone, Jerusalem, which will unite them for a moment and will crush them in the end.

Day of wrath, that day
Will dissolve the earth in ashes
As David and the Sibyl bear witness.
What dread there will be
When the Judge shall come
To judge all things strictly.
A trumpet, spreading a wondrous sound
Through the graves of all lands,
Will drive mankind before the throne.
Death and Nature shall be astonished
When all creation rises again
To answer to the Judge.
A book, written in, will be brought forth
In which is contained everything that is,
Out of which the world shall be judged.
When therefore the Judge takes His seat
Whatever is hidden will reveal itself.
Nothing will remain unavenged.
What then shall 1 say, wretch that I am,
What advocate entreat to speak for me,
When even the righteous may hardly be secure?
King of awful majesty,
Who freely savest the redeemed,
Save me, O fount of goodness.
Remember, blessed Jesu,
That I am the cause of Thy pilgrimage,
Do not forsake me on that day.
Seeking me Thou didst sit down weary,
Thou didst redeem me, suffering death on the cross.
Let not such toil be in vain.
Just and avenging Judge,
Grant remission
Before the day of reckoning.
I groan like a guilty man.
Guilt reddens my face.
Spare a suppliant, O God.
Thou who didst absolve Mary Magdalene
And didst hearken to the thief,
To me also hast Thou given hope.
My prayers are not worthy,
But Thou in Thy merciful goodness grant
That I burn not in everlasting fire.
Place me among Thy sheep
And separate me from the goats,
Setting me on Thy right hand.
When the accursed have been confounded
And given over to the bitter flames,
Call me with the blessed.
I pray in supplication on my knees.
My heart contrite as the dust,
Safeguard my fate.
Mournful that day
When from the dust shall rise
Guilty man to be judged.
Therefore spare him, O God.
Merciful Jesu,
Lord Grant them rest.
Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory,
deliver the souls of all the faithful
departed from the pains of hell and from the bottomless pit.
Deliver them from the lion’s mouth.
Neither let them fall into darkness
nor the black abyss swallow them up.
And let St. Michael, Thy standard-bearer,
lead them into the holy light
which once Thou didst promise
to Abraham and his seed.

We offer unto Thee this sacrifice
of prayer and praise.
Receive it for those souls
whom today we commemorate.
Allow them, O Lord, to cross
from death into the life
which once Thou didst promise to Abraham
and his seed.
Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God of Sabaoth.
Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
grant them rest.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
grant them everlasting rest.
May eternal light shine on them, O Lord.
with Thy saints for ever, because
Thou art merciful.
Grant the dead eternal rest, O Lord,
and may perpetual light shine on them,
with Thy saints for ever,
because Thou are merciful.

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  • The eventual overthrow of the Saudi royalty was what came to mind also when I began to research the Islamic ideology shortly after 9/11 and posted the following on the Internet:
    “The goals of the Wahhabis movement are to restore the core teachings of Islam as observed during the first four caliphs that succeeded Muhammad. They are also very much against the encroachment of Western influence into the Middle East and have been at odds with the royal family for establishing ties with the United States and other non-Islamic countries. The ruling power of Saudi Arabia greatly rests within Wahhabi influence and internal disagreements over the present political relationships with Western nations is likely to cause the overthrow of Saudi royalty, much the same as when the Shah of Iran was deposed in 1979 by hardline Islamic fundamentalism.”
    http://www.Starman3000.com

    • susan

      Mike, I’ve been reading some of the material posted on your website
      http://www.Starman3000.com. I hope others will find it useful as well. Thank you.

      • Thank you very much, Susan. The information is a brief selection of notes and observations through a very intense year-long research into the Islamic teachings from the Qur’an and Ahadith. I had originally began the study shortly after 9/11 for my own personal understanding and realized that there is much that people are really not aware of and that Islam does not mean “peace” as the Muslim apologists and many political leaders would have us believe. The web site is nothing fancy but was developed into a short, easy-to-read, format. Thank you again for your comments, Susan, and I am glad that you are finding the information useful to learn what the fundamental basics of Islam entail and what many people have never been warned about.

  • Saxon Warrior

    I have to point out that Ethiopia as mentioned in the Holy Bible is not the Ethiopia of today, but geographically is more akin to modern day Sudan.

    • Fhr68

      Yup ur right on the money , and mr shoebat explains it.

  • Grandmere

    This past week has been stunning for those of us who understand the import of these meetings. What is going to happen this week? I can hardly wait to find out. Thanks, Chef for all you do.

    • Fhr68

      Grandmere this whole year is going to be interesting, I’m waiting now to hear about the release of the tri colour breast plate it’s suppose to come out either the end of this month or the beginning of April.

      • Grandmere

        Whoa! Tell me about this!

        • Fhr68

          Remember the ottoman coat of arms which Queen Victoria commissioned during her reign for the Sultan, she sent one of the finest designers from England to turkey to study the culture and nationality of the Ottoman Empire and fashioned the coat of arms In a western style, which now Erdogan has commissioned a redesign, to suit and adapt to our modern times, and the nature of the Turkish government. it will be used on passports, drivers lic, birth certificates etc….Mr shoebat wrote an article about it.

          • Grandmere

            Yes I do remember the coat of arms. The term breastplate threw me.

  • royal

    Thank you Walid, for you constant Faith and endless perseverance .your teaching is spot on .God Bless

  • theophorus

    Is not the quoted text Berlioz?

    • Grandmere

      It is not from the requiem. but boy is it powerful.

  • richinnameonly

    The final world scene, and generally how it gets there, seems easier to predict than all the weekly twists and turns that it takes to get there. Like Satan trying to beat God in a big game of chess. Lots of moves, but you know who will win in the end.
    The Mozart certainly is a nice contrast to the rap of today.

  • Trevor

    Appreciate all the efforts to keep us informed, prophetically and news-y.

  • AnthonyM

    Had to look up ZamZam. The spring of water to sustain Ishmael, off-spring of Abraham, and Hagar alive.
    Dies Irae dies illa. Powerful words of warning for our time.

  • j parks

    So what is wrong with my comment that you won’t post it?

    • Grandmere

      I see a comment. If you are new it takes a minute.

  • Fhr68

    No knows the time frame to the exact when it will happen . What happens to Arabia after is in the bible it becomes a complete desolate waste land. Nothing will be left worth claiming

  • EBH54

    This is not the coming of a Hollywood movie to the world. It is The Wrath of God. It helps to have something deep to hang our souls on!

    • Grandmere

      AMEN

  • Brothers against Brothers …

    • Fhr68

      Ishmael’s genetic nature.

  • marlene

    Someone else knew and understood this middle east chess game when they put obama in power. Unfortunately, obama doesn’t play chess but he moves well when he’s told

    • EBH54

      Based on John McCain’s actions, it looks like the chess masters had the board rigged, different man, same results in the Middle East.

  • Ezekiel 30:5 is but one small part of a larger prophecy given to Ezekiel regarding “the Day of Lord Wrath,” the last of four prophetic end time periods, i.e., the War of Gog and Magog (Ez 38, 39), Daniel’s 70th Week (Dan 9), the Great Tribulation Period (Matt 24) and the Day of the Lord’s Wrath spoken of in Ezekiel 30:5 and throughout Scripture. Thus it has absolutely nothing to do with any geopolitical events prior to Ezekiel’s War of Gog and Magog, Daniel’s 70th Week or the Great Tribulation Period which will all precede the Day of the Lord’s Wrath by at least seven years…When one misquotes Scripture, or takes it out of its intended context in an attempt to force modern geopolitical events into a preconceived end time paradigm, regardless of one’ good intentions, the result can only be confusion for the Church. Thus, the end does not justify the means…And this kind of unspiritual foolishness from our Church leaders needs to come to an abrupt end…

    • Trevor

      Um, the Scripture was all Middle East orientated.

      You need to understand the Law of First Mention. God established the “world” boundary in Genesis. The nations of Genesis 10 gives birth to the modern nations that are all Islamic now.

      Judaism and Christianity were born in the Middle East. So was Islam.

      Therefore, prophecies concerning the End Times are Middle Eastern.

      • You couldn’t be more wrong when you claim “Therefore, prophecies concerning the End Times are Middle Eastern…Oh! Just a side note before I get started – Turkey is not located in the Middle East but rather on the Anatolia Peninsula, thus it is considered a part of Europe and the gateway between Europe and Asia…Nevertheless, you are wrong, when you say “Therefore, prophecies concerning the End Times are Middle Eastern.” Virtually the whole book of Revelation, all of Matthew 24, etc, etc are prophecies concerning the Church even though the Church was originally founded in Jerusalem as you rightly claim. Evidently you have not noticed, but the Church no longer has its center in Jerusalem or the Middle East as the Church has spread across the entire globe? So any end time prophecies concerning the Church are not “concerning [only] the MIddle East” but the whole world…You make the obvious mistake that so many make – you confuse the various end time prophecies concerning the Church with Israel, or, as you claim, you believe they are Middle Eastern only in nature, and nothing could be further from the truth…

        • Trevor

          Nope. I’m not confused. It explains everything. It explains what’s happening in the Middle East and why in the last few decades, major foreign powers’ policy seem to be concentrated in the Middle East. After all, the Middle East is the cradle of civilization.

          • Grandmere

            You have the patience of Job, mon cher.

          • Trevor

            Wow. High praise. I’m humbled and honored.

          • If I may Trevor, I agree with you that most eschatological events will take place in and around the MIddle East, and primarily in and around Jerusalem. So the question becomes ‘Why?’ You would argue the reason for this is “Judaism and Christianity were born in the Middle East. So was Islam. Therefore, prophecies concerning the End Times are Middle Eastern.” That, I would consider to be a very simplistic answer and accurate only in the abstract. Forty-plus years of studying eschatological events has led me to the conclusion that end time events will be centered in and around Jerusalem ONLY because of the Temple Mount – the holiest and most sacred piece of real estate on the planet. Holy and sacred because that is where God established His earthly throne. Lucifer, on the other hand, wants to be worshiped as God, I think we all can agree on that? On the spiritual plane as well as the physical plane if Lucifer wants to be worshiped as God, because he can not be worshiped in Heaven as God, he can only accomplish his desire on earth. And there is only one place on earth that he can be worshiped as God – in the Holy of Holies inside a newly rebuilt Jewish Temple atop Mount Moriah. To accomplish this, he must first allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Ezekiel 38, 39; Dan 9:27). Once the Temple is rebuilt, he will take the Temple from the Jews and set himself up in the Holy of Holies as God, to be worshiped as God (Dan 9:26, 11:31, 12:11; Matt 24:15; etc). The Jews, obviously, will reject him and, in turn, he will begin to persecute the Jews. But the Christians – will also reject him across the world. As a result, he will begin to persecute all Christians – worldwide…This, then, is why the Middle East is so important – because Mount Moriah and Jerusalem are in the Middle East and, if he wants to be worshiped as God, he can only fulfill his desire atop only one mount in only one city from all the earth…Does that make sense?…

          • Trevor

            Then we are in agreement. Many time things are so simple we say, “Dooh! Why didn’t I see it before?!”

            However, the geopolitical of the Middle East will shape the coming Great Tribulation that will change the world forever. That’s why at this site, we are very interested in what Turkey and Iran are up to, and what’s up with all the sudden Islam expansionism that are engulfing the Middle East, mainly because in my own personal study of the Middle East I have discovered what Walid already disclosed that God already gave us information on who and what will take place in the Middle East . Geographic reference and historic accounts back it up as well.

          • I’m glad to have finally found someone reasonable – and kindly only this particular website…With that being said, I’m very happy knowing that I helped you with a better understanding of what truly makes the Middle East so important to God, Lucifer and end time prophecy…With that being said, you and Walid are correct in tracking the geopolitical events and characters throughout the Middle East. But don’t ever forget that it will, ultimately, be the policy of an American President that will allow all eschatological events to happen – because he, alone, will have to turn his back on Israel which, in turn, will greenlight “Gog” of the Land of Magog” to invade Israel at the head of a 10 nation coalition force which will be 10 Islamic geographic areas…That is where Walid and I differ – and it is a very important difference that changes everything. One of us is right – and one of us is terribly wrong. For Walid is convinced, based on one verse of Scripture (Micah 5) that the Antichrist will come from modern Turkey. I, on the other hand, believe, based on several different Scripture, Eze 38, 39 for example, that “Gog’ is the one who will come from Turkey. Consequently, Walid – and you – watch for and teach others to watch for the Antichrist coming from Turkey. I, on the other hand, teach others to watch for “Gog” to come out of Turkey and lead his ten nation coalition army in an invasion of Israel. It is only after God has destroyed Gog’s forces and killed “Gog” “on the mountains of Israel” (Ez 39:4) that, as a result of the disastrous “War of Gog and Magog” the Antichrist will step into “Gog’s” role as Caliph (“king,” Rev 17:10) of a reunited Islamic Empire and enter into a seven year peace treaty with Israel (Dan 9:27) on behalf of the Islamic Empire. Within that peace treaty – the Caliph of a reunited Islamic Empire – will allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple atop Mt Moriah because Lucifer needs this Temple so that he can, after it is built three and one half years later, enter the Holy of Holies and proclaim himself to be God so that he can be worshiped as God…Does this not make sense?…

          • Trevor

            I think we will have to agree to disagree.

            One thing is clear, though, we all need to be on guard against deception because it will get worse before the 2nd Coming of the Lord.

        • Grandmere

          Richard, you are lucky that anybody in here took the time to respond to you. Trevor, prince that he is, deigned to give you some of his valuable time. If you don’t agree, that’s okay. Go in peace. There are so many sites that will lap up your thoughts and ask if they can sit at your feet. That ain’t gonna happen here.

          • I’m sorry – I didn’t realise that this was a site for like minded people only who could care less about learning or discussing a different – and more accurate interpretation?…I neither ask for nor expect any person to “lap up my thoughts.” I only expect an intelligent response – which I obviously did not receive from you…Let me ask you – Why is it when so many “Christians” like yourself and can’t defend their position on an intellectual level they, as you have just done, become as hateful as the heathen?…Who are you to tell another Christian brother to get off a supposedly open Christian website simply because you can’t defend your position or don’t like mine? You are a hateful soul brother and “Christian” in name only because you do not have the natural love one Christian should have for another. That, I assume, explains why you hold to heretical interpretations which you can only regurgitate and not defend. You need to check yourself brother – especially on a public forum like this one….

          • Grandmere

            And you need a lesson in French.

          • Said like a true internet troll…not a Christian brother…

          • Grandmere

            You pop up here and call me a troll? Ask Trevor if he thinks Grandmere is a troll.

          • Dude – I have no idea who or what you are. All I do know is you asked me to get off this website simply because you didn’t like my interpretation[s] of things. That is about as unchristian as one could be on the internet – as well as un American as Free Speech is a Constitutional right. I called you on it – and asked that you “check yourself” in the future before acting so unchristian again on a public forum like this one the next time you run across a Christian brother who holds different eschatological views than you do…I thought I made my point when you didn’t respond as I believed, like any true Christian should do after acting like you did, you were at least thinking about what you did and how your action brought just a little shame on Christ and His Church – if, indeed, you are a Christian…Then when, after a day or two you responded with “And you need a lesson in French,” which I took to be disrespectful again, I was left with no other alternative than to believe that you were actually one of those “trolls” who like to go on Christian websites and cause trouble and be mean while pretending to be “Christian?”…Now that I know you actually think of yourself as a Christian, I’ve got news for you brother – Christians first and foremost are recognized by their love for their brethren. Because you currently do not possess this trait, if I were you – I would pray over it…But that’s just what I would do if I had treated a Christian brother like you did on a public forum…

          • Grandmere

            I am not a dude. I am a Grandmere. We get a lot of hit and run visitors in here. I took you for one. Maybe I was too hasty as I saw that you and Trevor were getting to a partial meeting of the minds. However I did not escalate or call you a troll. It was you that escalated and called me names that I never called you. I responded to you when I saw your post this morning calling me a man. All I said is that you needed a French lesson. I did not name call. Good buy and bon chance.

          • As I said earlier – I have no idea who you are, thus I had no way of knowing you were a grandmother. Nor do I know anything about “hit and run visitors” on this site, although I can sympathise with you on that point as I’ve encountered my fair share of “trolls” or non christians hitting Christian websites and pretending to be Christian in order to sow division.

            With the above being said – anytime I am told to get off a Christian website simply because someone disagrees with my interpretations, I am left to assume that person is either a “Christian” in name only, or another “troll” pretending to be a Christian?…If I was wrong with my assumptions – then I sincerely apologise.

            With the above being said – I was never rude or disrespectful to Travor, we were, at the time, simply disagreeing over an interpretation – a disagreement which was later resolved when Trevvor agreed with my interpretation after I had the opportunity to explain things to him in a way he himself admitted he had never seen or heard before…We were simply two Christian brothers disagreeing over an interpretation in a gentlemanly fashion…Maybe you mistook me for another “troll,” and I have no reason to doubt you when you said you did. And as I already said – I can certainly understand one’s frustrations with atheist or evolutionist trolls on a Christian website as I too can get all over what I perceive to be a “troll,” as you can now attest. 🙂

            Maybe we both can learn a lesson from this little episode?…However, if I may, when you said “Richard, you are lucky that anybody in here took the time to respond to you” and “If you don’t agree, that’s okay. Go in peace” and “There are so many sites that will lap up your thoughts and ask if they can sit at your feet” are pretty harsh things for any Christian to say to someone – anyone!..Christ expects more than that from us – just as He expects more from me than calling someone- anyone! a “troll.” So maybe we should both work on that in the future?

            God Bless you Grandmere…Hope we can still be brother and sister?….

          • susan

            We get so many with different “packaging” but once you open it, it’s the same old thing inside.

          • susan

            SNAP! 🙂

        • j7h

          I grew up in Turkey. I can assure you that Turkey is very much considered part of the Middle East. In Istanbul, once you cross the canal from east Istanbul to west Istanbul (the part that borders Greece) THEN you are considered to be in Europe. But it’s only that part of Turkey that is European, and it’s a very tiny part. That is why Turkey is considered to be the gateway to Europe (or Asia Minor), but it is still Middle Eastern.

          • As an Islamic country I have no doubt the citizens of Turkey prefer to consider themselves a part of the Middle East for obvious reasons. But geographically speaking, Turkey inhabits the Anatolia Peninsula which is not a part of the Levant. Thus, technically, Turkey is not a part of the Middle East, nor have any historians or geographers – ancient or modern – that I am aware of ever considered Turkey a part of the Middle East?..

          • j7h

            Actually Turkey is indeed considered part of the Levant, so is Cyprus. At times, even Greece has been included. My home town is home of one of the major universities in the U. S., and if you take courses on the Middle East or major in the subject, you’ll find Turkey is often prominently featured, especially now-so, as a major Middle Eastern nation.

          • Given that Turkey’ capital, Istanbul, is located in Europe and when one crosses the Bosphorus they are in Asia is is difficult for me to understand, from a geographical perspective, how you or anyone else could consider Turkey as being in the Middle East? Nevertheless, I did a little research since you kept calling me on this point and found the following: “The first official use of the term “Middle East” by the United States government was in the 1957 Eisenhower Doctrine, which pertained to the Suez Crisis. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles defined the Middle East as “the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Syria and Iraq on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia.”[12] In 1958, the State Department explained that the terms “Near East” and “Middle East” were interchangeable, and defined the region as including only Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar.”

          • j7h

            I don’t know where you’re getting your information because that would have left out the Arab Emirates and Yemen, whigh would be wrong. But Turkey’s capital is not Istanbul but Ankara. And as far as the term Middle East goes, its use began during WWII, before 1958, and it was coined by the British. But it was just a new way to describe what had been being called the Near East. The Near East still included Turkey. The term Near East itself only came about in the late 1800’s. Before that, everything east of the the Mediterranean was called the East. That included Turkey. If people wanted to distinguish the areas of Far East or Near East, they would refer to what is now called the Middle East as Western Asia. There was never a clearly defined border to this area simply because of the changes of hands of rulers for centuries. But trafitionally, Turkey was included in the Near East. It was also traditionally included in the area called the Levant because the Ottoman Empire occupied those lands or most of them for centuries. The terms Ottoman Empire and Levant were often used interchangeably for this reason. Even Queen Elizabeth I of England, who chartered what was first called Company of Merchants of the Levant (when she wanted to start trade with the Orient), which was later changed to the name Levant Company and then later again to the Turkey Company, but it was the same location: Turkey. Istanbul was seen as the door or portal to the East, of which Turkey was always considered a part. And Anatolia, which is Greek for “sunrise”, was always considered Western Asia, even when it was under Greek and Roman rule. Turkey is more and more being consideyed the actual Indo-European source, rather than the steppes areas of the Caucusus, as the source for Indo – European languages and peoples, prior to the invasion of the Seljuk and Mongol Turks. Europe has often been considered to extend to Turkey, but Turkey has always been considered part of Asia. Its eastern part, across the Bosphorus, is still considered by Greece to rightfully belong to them. But that tiny fragment is the only part of Turkey that is part of Europe.

          • Turkey’s capital, in 1958, was Istanbul – not Ankara…Why would the Yemen, at the extreme southern tip of Saudi Arabia, be considered a part of the Middle East? The United Arab Emirates is east of Qatar and Saudi Arabia – again, why should it be considered a part of the Middle East?…Turkey has always been considered to be “Asia Minor” not the “Levant” or the “Middle East” since the end of WWII…Turkey was only considered to be the “Middle East” while the Ottoman Empire controlled the Levant. After their defeat in WWI, when the empire fell, because Turkey no longer controlled any land in the Levant, Turkey could no longer be considered a part of the “Levant” or the “Middle East?”…I fail to understand the problem?…Turkey lies on the Anatolia Peninsula, which is considered “Asia Minor” by virtually every scholar I have ever read. Moreover, because Turkey no longer controls a single acre of land anywhere in the Levant it no longer can be considered to be a part of the “Middle East?”…I understand your desire to hang on to past glories of the Ottoman Empire, but that empire was defeated and no longer exists. Moreover, simply Turkey is an Islamic state does not make it any part of the Middle East, just as Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, ext should not be considered a part of the MIddle East…I also understand the desire of many Muslims in or around the Middle East to set up a caliphate in the MIddle East – which is why terminology is so important…Obama insists on calling ISIS “ISIL” which stands for “Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.” So Obama is unwittingly playing into ISIS’s desire to rebuild a caliphate in the Levant….

          • j7h

            First of all, you said Turkey’s capital, “is” not “was” in your previous comment. So I corrected you because you used the present not the past, in reference to Turkey’s capital being Istanbul. It was Istanbul for a very, very long time. But it is NOW Ankara.

            Second of all you I’mI’m not from Turkey, I just grew up there. I have ZERO interest in hanging on to any Ottoman glories because I am European, not Turkish. Europeans have a lot of reasons to not particularly like Turks, so why would I, an ethnic European, have any interest in Ottoman glories?

            Third, you obviously did not read all of my comment, or you didn’t pay any attention to what I said. So I will make one final comment about this topic and then have no further communication with you. Wherever you are getting your information, you are either misunderstanding it, or you you are getting wrong information. Asia Minor is not separate from Asia. If it was, it wouldn’t even be called Asia Minor – Asia part would be a misnomer. Just because a piece of land has the names Anatolia peninsula and Asia Minor does not exclude it as being part of Asia. As I already told you, you can Google this information for yourself, it is readily available – and I’m talking about well established sources. Your information is in error. Yes, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates are considered part of the Middle East. And they have been.

            I don’t know who you think you are, but you got on this site, started trying to correct Trevor, who I consider a friend and who is not in error, your answers to him showed you don’t pay much attention to what he said in response to you, then you arrogantly concluded that you had helped him see something differently – further proving you had not really paid attention to what he said – and you were quite smug about it, in the view of more than one person than just myself.

            I really couldn’t care less if you are a history professor with a PhD, there are ma y professors who believe and teach wrong things. Your information about Turkey is incorrect. There are vast swathes of scholarly information that disagree with what you’re saying. I would know because I have studied quite a few of them myself, even though it is outside of my chosen profession. Because I grew up in Turkey, I have a keen interest in things Turkish and Middle Eastern. I have read and studied whole encyclopaedias on Turkey, as well as some of the surrounding nations, and have them in my libray to this day. Either you need to quit talking about things you don’t have a thorough understanding about, or get a real education about it, first, before you make a fool of yourself. I mean no offense in what I say, but you are simply wrong. I even provided you with some proofs you could go research yourself. Instead, you want to hold on to your position and argue about it. It’s not worth it to me to continue to converse with you.

          • What’s with people on the website – because some of you are the meanest “Christians” I have ever ran across? And I detest conversing with hateful people who, because they can not defend their position or don’t really understand their belief, usually become hateful…

            Firstly, Trevor’s own words, after I explained myself, were “Then we are in agreement. Many time things are so simple we say, “Dooh! Why didn’t I see it before?!” Obviously he was referring to what I had just explained in my previous post. And I even followed that up with “I’m glad to have finally found someone reasonable – and kindly on this particular website…With that being said, I’m very happy knowing that I helped you with a better understanding of what truly makes the Middle East so important to God, Lucifer and end time prophecy…” That you now claim my reply was “smug” only shows, not only how hateful you are, but intellectually dishonest as well which, again, seems to be a pervasive trait on this particular site…

            “Asia Minor” means “little Asia” – no where did I claim “Asia Minor” was not a part of Asia…I was only making the point as both a part of Asia (“Asia Minor”) and Europe, Turkey is not a part of either the Levant of the MIddle East…

            You won’t even concede you are wrong when you tried to place Yemen, at the extreme southern tip of Saudi Arabia, and the Arab Emirates at the extreme north eastern tip of Saudi Arabia as being a part of the “Middle East…Why didn’t you just try to include all of Africa or Pakistan – maybe even India?…

            In all fairness, like others on this particular website, you adhere to Walid’s interpretation of the Antichrist coming from Turkey based on his fanciful interpretation of Micah 5…And that interpretation, along with other various eschatological prophecies necessitates Turkey being a part of the MIddle East. So my showing that Turkey is not any part of the Middle East not only blows up that interpretation in your mind, but it actually causes you to respond in a hateful and less than Christian manner…

            Let me blow that interpretation of Micah 5 up even further for you – Micah 5 speaks about “the Assyrian,” invading Israel as you know…To interpret “the Assyrian” as the Antichrist Walid claims that the ancient Anatolia Peninsula (I know you didn’t understand why I previously used that term for Turkey – but now, maybe you will?) was once a part of the Assyrian Empire. Which is true – It was also once a part of the Byzantine Kingdom, the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Hungarian Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire etc…But no where in Scripture does Scripture ever refer to a remote part of any empire, which was held by force for only a few years, as a reference for an eschatological prophecy. In other words, because the capital of the Assyrian Empire was Nineveh and its surrounding land, “Assyria” in Scripture means just that – Nineveh and its surrounding lands. The greater Babylonian Empire once controlled Nineveh, but when Scripture speaks of “Babylon” Nineveh is never considered a part of prophetic “Babylon. And I could give you many more examples…

            Consequently, “Assyria” with its capital of Nineveh and its surrounding areas was located in modern Iraq! – not in the ancient Anatolia Peninsula! Thus, “the Assyrian,” if he comes from anywhere in the modern sense would come from Iraq. Years ago I saw several so-called prophecy teachers using Micah 5 to claim that Saddam Hussein was the Antichrist. I told some then they were wrong, and like Walid, they told me I was wrong, and like many on Walid’s website, they too called me names…

            Sometimes people get hooked on various fanciful interpretations of Scripture made by “false teachers,” like Russia is “Gog and Magog,” or the EU was the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s ten kingdoms, a pre-trib rapture, etc, and, for some strange reason, you just can’t correct them until geopolitical events blow up the Soviet Union, or the original 10 members of the EU grows to 36…You appear to be in this category…

            With the above being said, I’ll give you the same advice I gave Grandmere; “You are a hateful soul brother and “Christian” in name only because you do not have the natural love one Christian should have for another.” And let me add you are a “smug” little man as well…

          • Dan Knight

            Wow, that comment was very well put j7h! You go girl!

          • j7h

            Thank you. I know I came across to him as being mean, and it wasn’t my intent to be. But he’s just wrong and wouldn’t even go research for himself what I was saying. I don’t know everything, of course. And I don’t even know everything about Turkey. Most Turks themselves don’t even know everything about Turkey. But I think having spent several key years of my life there does give me at least more advantage in the area of knowledge of Turkey than the average non – Turk has. Oh well!

          • Dan Knight

            I thought you were really nice. You never lost your temper nor your thread of thought.

          • j7h

            Well thanks!

          • j7h

            That’s true, I didn’t lose my temper. I kind of felt sorry for him in a way because he was making some wrong claims. But I tend to be very direct and don’t mince words. I’m often taken for being rude or a know-it-all, which I don’t mean to be at all. I’m glad to know you understood.
            ; )

          • Dan Knight

            You did a great job. Don’t worry about it. Anyone of good will knows this is just ‘posting’ anyway. I like your posts.

          • j7h

            Well thanks, my friend! “Smooch!”

          • j7h

            I have to answer you in two parts because the answer I just posted was interrupted. What I was going to include in my answer, along with the fact that Turkey is part of the Levant, is that Turkey has also traditionally been seen as part of the Middle East. Its Anatolian peninsula location does not therefore have any bearing on its status, by modern or historical accounts, as a Middle Eastern nation. You can Google it and see that Turkey is and has been considered part of the Middle East. In fact, there are many in Turkey who would prefer it were entirely European rather than Middle Eastern.

  • susan

    Walid, thank you for those wonderful verses. 🙂

  • Fhr68

    That’s was quite the speech he gave. I watched it twice Churchill couldn’t of said it any better.

  • Grandmere

    Pfffffffffffft!

  • Grandmere

    Pfffffffffffffffft!

  • Grandmere

    Sorry. A “minute” is a term of art. Nowadays a “minute” could mean days. LOL! Now that you are in, you will not experience delays. Welcome, and “fire away”. We welcome fresh viewpoints.

  • Grandmere

    The prayer is from the libretto. I posted a link to the libretto above.

  • Saxon Warrior

    I never said that Sudan was or ever shall be Ethiopia, I’m talking about their geographic locations and what locations correspond to these nations today.

  • Saxon Warrior

    A word of advice – never, ever take a job where you need to use math or even simple arithmetic for that matter, because you’re adding two and two together and coming up with ten.
    You seem to be confusing the voice of the ‘Holy spirit’ with the voice of Satan and are jumping to conclusions about them being the same.
    By the way – have you ever read a book in your entire life? Do you think that they all read the same?
    So, in your tiny little mind – all religions are the same. That’s like saying all road vehicles are the same. Maybe you get confused between a fire truck and a motorbike. Perhaps you’re just a little bit stupid!

  • Saxon Warrior

    I too am a person of more books than one. I read many books. I never said that I hear voices either – you’re referring to somebody elses post.
    Perhaps you should learn to read a person’s comments before replying to them. You’re actually quite a sad little man aren’t you?

  • Fhr68

    I know, queen Vickie was so infacuated with the Sultan so much that he awarded him the Garter. Queen Liz 1 as well, and todays Queen Liz 2 drools over the saudi princes. have you ever read the correspondances between the Liz 1 and the Sultan? interesting read. how they praised one another for ecomonic and policital means to take down King Philip of Spain.