DRINKING “THE BLOOD OF SAINTS”

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By Walid Shoebat

How can I bring reconciliation between people who say they all love the Bible?

My dream is to reconcile the People of the Good Book while keeping the spirit of discussion in ironing out their differences.

My dream is to help my fellow Christian Arab to see that his enemy is not Israel, but that Islam desires to conquer all of us: Jews, Catholics and Protestants.

My dream is that Catholics could be as zealous to learn the Bible as Evangelicals do and that Evangelicals learn history as Catholics do and the Jews learn about Jesus as we all do.

But sharing such dreams are a sin that is met with much objection.

To my detractors I say, let me first confess my errors, before I point out yours.

Having been steeped into the error of Islam and coming out of it taught me something: to all who seek to find truth, here is how you do it: go and find what is most attacked and their you will find the truth. This is true regardless of that what you might find is something you do not agree with.

It is difficult to comprehend this unless you came out of error and you have a confessing spirit.

It is why I examine things for myself from honest sources. I do not follow a favorite preacher and I always try to listen to both sides, then I make up my mind.

I had to deal with my first errors when I joined a Baptist church, I learned what I learned when I met mostly Protestants who either grew up in the faith or dissatisfied x-Catholic migrants who were dissatisfied by a multitude of issues they found in the Catholic circles.

To these, the moment I said anything positive about Catholics and the first thing that happens is that the other side machine guns all the problems with Catholics, while they completely ignored the one positive point I made about them.

Is this how we iron out our differences?

But I assure you, machine gun comments is exactly what will be posted on my comment section; Mariology, Prayer to Saints, Icons, Statues, works and the killing of Christians throughout history …

While these are fine arguments, perhaps I will point one confession: as I investigated history, I could not find the supposed “blood of the saints” that the Catholic church have shed, instead I found that the blood of heretics became the “blood of the saints,” while the blood of millions of Catholics and Eastern orthodox fighting Islam was rendered worthless.
Having said this, this does not mean that mistakes did not happen, they did.

The main qualification we had for Vatican to be Harlot is that it was the Popes using their chalice “drank the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

For that to be true, we all conjured up what we claimed were “overwhelming” historic references in which Millions of copies of books circulated to the unsuspecting without disclosing the heretical theology of the sects that the Catholic Church eliminated.

Typical depiction of the Whore of Babylon

Typical depiction of the Whore of Babylon

Let me explain. We argued for centuries that such saints were: Manichaeans, Arians, Cathars, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles, Waldensians, Albigensians, Lollards and Hussites.

But as I examined, these were hardly saints by biblical standards and neither did we quote many valid historians to prove our case. Instead, we quoted theologians and propagandists while we pretended they were historians.

Do we think that tolerating the Cathars was the right thing to do?

The Cathars in their days were similar to Muslims.

The Paulicians, who were really Armenian Cathars, had fought in the ranks of the Muslims against the Crusaders during the First Crusade.

Were these the saints?

When we identify ourselves with the Cathars, is as if someone identifies themselves with the Philistines and the Ba’al worshipers that the Israelites removed.

To deny Israel that right is not only anti-God but also Anti-Semitic.

Neither can such groups be linked to any original first century church. These broke away from the Church and were never even pre-existent to it.

And I can show countless of examples of such error. Take for example, the famous preacher John MacArthur who rejects the biblical discourses of certain medieval theologians utters one example of such error; he amazingly accepts these heretical groups as orthodox Bible expositors:

While the period produced some famous preachers, such as Peter the Hermit, Bernard of Clairvaux, and Thomas Aquinas, none handled the text in an expository fashion. Faint hints of Bible exposition have been detected among independent groups such as the Paulicians, Waldenses, and Albigenses, despite the fact that these groups are commonly dismissed as “heretics.” (1)

The closest sects, who can even have a hint of orthodoxy, would be the Hussites and the Waldenses. But even if we take these two sects, they believed in Catholic and not Evangelical dogma.

I could also write a book on the violence committed by the Hussites and the Albigensians that would raise an eyebrow.

The Paulicians and the Albigenses were purely heretics. Considering this whole conundrum from our evangelical mindset, how could killing these be considered “drinking the blood of the saints”?

Take another writer, Tim LaHaye, who is touted and lauded as a brilliant prophecy analyst who knows virtually very little about such groups, even sympathized with the Cathars of southern France, who were repressed by the Catholics:

In the period immediately following [Pope] Innocent III the Inquisition did its most deadly work in Southern France (see under Albigenses) (2)

Dave Hunt even goes as far as accepting the Cathars, and the Bogomils (another heretical group by evangelical standards) as being a part of the first church:

Furthermore, millions of biblical Christians resisted Rome for fifteen years before Luther or Calvin. Albigensis, Waldenses, Bogomils, Paulicians, Baptists, and those who simply called themselves “Christians” or “brethren” traced their doctrines back to the apostles and never obeyed the popes. (3)

Expulsion of the Cathars

Expulsion of the Cathars

Didn’t Hunt know that there were no “Baptists” fifteen hundred years before Luther?

Most modern Evangelical writers lack in the field of history.

EXAMINING THE HISTORIANS

Even when examining the historians they quote, they usually leave out major crucial facts. Hunt for example, used Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, Will Durant, Henry Charles Lea and William Edward Hartpole Lecky who are certainly historians of note, but the quotes they use from these historians do not address the theology, motive and the violence committed by these sects who by using the evangelical scale would be heretical and terroristic from even an evangelical sense.

The Cathars like the Albigensians were so evil that Lea had to admit: “Had Catharism become predominant, its influence would infallibly have proved fatal” (History of the Inquisition, I, 117).

While such authors love to use quotes from Will Durant on how the Catholics eliminated the dualist Cathars who believed in two gods (4) they intentionally ignore that historian Will Durant wrote that for some time the Cathari were tolerated:

received a broad toleration from the ecclesiastics and the secular powers of southern France. Apparently the people were allowed to choose freely between the old religion and the new.

Durant then reports about these pagans’ acts of terrorism; how in “1171 Roger II, Viscount of Béziers, sacked an abbey, threw the bishop of Albi into prison, and set a heretic to guard him.” The pagans “drove abbot and monks from the abbey of Pamiers; his horses ate oats from the altar; his soldiers used the arms and legs of the crucifixes as pestles to grind grain, and practiced their marksmanship upon the image of Christ. Count Raymond VI of Toulouse destroyed several churches, persecuted the monks of Moissac, and was excommunicated (1196)…”
(5)

Was eliminating these qualify as “shedding the blood of saints”?

Must the Church tolerate all this terrorism?

Even Protestant England had it right as Lecky explained, in general so indulgent towards paganism in her colonies, could not tolerate the continuation among the Hindus of the ritual murder of children and the burning of widows (the Suttee), prohibiting the former under severe penalties in 1802 and the latter in 1829 (6)

The Protestants rightfully stopped such pagan practices through violence and war.

One could examine what England did to the Thuggees in India, who butchered millions of Indians as sacrifices to the demonic goddess Kali.

Thuggees killing their victims

Thuggees killing their victims

Similarly, the only way we can argue for the rights of Cathars and Albigenses is by adapting what we espouse to fight—liberalism, religious tolerance and tolerance to terrorism.

Isn’t that what we are at war with as Christians?

Why do we reject first century Christian doctrine that was delivered to us by Policarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome — who knew the apostles personally — yet accept the Cathars as Bible believing Christians?

Are we being honest here?

But its not only us who have a problem providing evidence for the monumental numbers of “millions” killed, these, like so many others, drank from the fountain of Dave Hunt which provided weak historic references like “E. H. Broadbent and Canon Llorente”:

In his History of the Inquisition, Canon Llorente, who was the Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-92 and had access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceeded 3 million, with about 300,000 burned at the stake. (7)

Llorente

Llorente

All this exaggeration “exceeds 3 million,” condemned and “300,000 burned at the stake,” while ignoring that serious historians had already debunked such outlandish claims:

Llorente, the ex-Secretary of the Holy Office who wrote a bitterly antagonistic account of it at the beginning of the 19th century, based on manuscript material which is no longer extant, states that all told, from its foundation down to 1808, the total number of heretics burned in person in Spain alone totalled 31,912… These figures are so enormous as to seem highly suspicious. (8)

Reputable British historian Henry Kamen stated:

“[Llorente] came up with the incredible figures of 31,912 relaxations in person, 17,659 relaxations in effigy, and 291,450 penitents, a grand total of 341,021 victims. All the historical evidence has shown this greatly exaggerated figure to be without any foundation.” (9)

Inquisition historian A.S. Turberville:

Llorente put the total at nearly 32,000 [burned in person], but his method of calculation is fantastic and ridiculous. (10)

From a book of essays by leading Inquisition historians:

There can be little doubt, however, that in light of subsequent research, even by those more or less sharing Llorente’s animus towards the Holy Office, he can no longer be considered reliable…Clearly, Llorente also contributed substantially to the growing anti-clerical tradition in Spain in the 19th century. (11)

Also one can read Professor Gerard Dufour, historian Mariana, professor Dumont and many others. Even Henry Charles Lea, the first major American Inquisition historian and no fan of the Catholic Church, says of the calculations of victims:

There is no question that the number of these has been greatly exaggerated in popular belief, an exaggeration to which Llorente has largely contributed by his absurd method of computation…. (Lea, volume 4, page 517)

Lea calls Llorente’s guesswork “reckless” and “entirely fallacious.”

It even gets worse, our popular evangelical theologian and author, John MacArthur and in order to make this one verse in Revelation 17:6 fit, had the audacity to even inflate a number to an absolutely unsubstantiated “fifty million” martyred by the Popes, without providing any credible proof:

According to Protestant Historian John Dowling, the Roman Catholic Church has put to death more than fifty million “heretics” between A.D. 606 (the birth of the papacy) and the mid-1800s (12)

Comical illustration of Dowling writing

Comical illustration of Dowling writing

Depending on which author one reads, the numbers even extends to 68 million, 100 million, 120 million, and 150 million Bible believing Christians murdered by the Catholic Church, a history that no one in history verified; neither was the Papacy born in 606 A.D. as claimed by John MacArthur, the “reputable” theologian.

But drilling down to find where this came from, I obtained MacArthur’s quote in which he quoted John Dowling’s The History of Romanism, Book 8, Ch. 1, pp. 542, 543:

From the birth of Popery in 600, to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than FIFTY MILLION of the human family have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of Popery.

And here is the crux of all this slander: in MacArthur’s quote, “According to Protestant Historian John Dowling,” as it turns out, John Dowling was a “pastor Dowling”, not “historian,” who held his pastorates in New York, Philadelphia.

It even gets worse, besides that Dowling has no credentials in history; Dowling, while he stated “fifty million,” he simply created such numbers out of thin air, his note explaining the number he admits:

No computation can reach the numbers who have been put to death, in different ways, on account of their maintaining the profession of the Gospel, and opposing the corruptions of the Church of Rome, A million Waldenses and Albigenses perished during a crusade proclaimed by Pope Innocent III in 1208; beginning from the establishment of the Jesuits in 1540 to 1580, nine hundred thousand were destroyed; one hundred and fifty thousand perished by the Inquisition in 30 years; within the space of thirty-eight years after the edict of Charles V against Protestants, fifty thousand persons were hanged, beheaded, or burned alive for heresy; eighteen thousand more perished during the administration of the Duke of Alva in five and a half years … but the total amount will never be known, till the earth shall disclose her blood (13)

Dowling even admits that “no computation” was done, that the only way to know is that “till the earth shall disclose her blood”. There was no tally, yet an enormous number was provided despite that when we examine the statement, there were no “million Waldenses and Albigenses perished”.

After noticing the outlandish quotes, I attempted to investigate even further as to what historian with his sane mind would declare that the Papacy murdered 100 million people. I finally found the source from a book, Who Are These Three Angels, by Jeff Wehr, P.p. 31-32:

For professing faith contrary to the teachings of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more than one hundred million people. A million Waldenses and Albigenses perished during a crusade proclaimed by Pope Innocent III in 1208; beginning from the establishment of the Jesuits in 1540 to 1580, nine hundred thousand were destroyed; one hundred and fifty thousand perished by the Inquisition in 30 years; within the space of thirty-eight years after the edict of Charles V against Protestants, fifty thousand persons were hanged, beheaded, or burned alive for heresy; eighteen thousand more perished during the administration of the Duke of Alva in five and a half years.—Brief Bible Readings for Busy People , No. 8.

The source used by Wehr, as it turned out, was from an insignificant booklet titled A Brief Bible Studies for Busy People (page 16), which was by Frances L. Carroll.

Carroll wasn’t even a historian but a housewife.

You heard it right.

It even gets worse, she was a Jehovah’s Witness serving with her husband as full-time volunteer traveling ministers of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (14)

Carroll, the housewife, simply plagiarized Dowling’s quote and simply inserted her own “one hundred million”.

But this is only taking a couple of quotes randomly that I was able to find a monumental fraud and outright slander. The Protestant World Christian Encyclopedia says that Roman Catholics killed 4.9 million Christians. Of course, such source lumps the Manichaeans, Arians, Cathars, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles, Waldensians, Albigensians, Lollards and Hussites as ‘Bible believing Christian’. Eliminate these heretics and the numbers go down drastically. The “millions” figure is not supported by any serious historian. It is difficult to manipulate history without notice and is why such authors resort to theologians proclaiming them as historians. That is these are self-ordained historians.

I had even tracked countless publications to only find out the main sources for such false information were not credible:

Peter De Rosa (aka Neil Boyd) was not a historian (15) but an X-priest, novel writer and Professor of Metaphysics.

John Wesley was not a historian but a theologian.

Alexander Hislop was not a historian but a Pastor of East Free Church of Arbroath in Scotland.

Schmucker was not a historian but a Professor of Theology.

William Craig Brownlee was not a historian but a reverend and an American clergyman and professor of languages.

Joseph Martin McCabe was not a historian but an x-Catholic priest.

Charles Buck was not a historian but a reverend and author of Theological Dictionary.

Vergerius was not a historian but a religious ‘reformer’.

Thomas Armitage was not a historian but a Protestant theologian.

George Bourne was not a historian but a pastor.

Cushing B. Hassell was not a historian but a writer.

Dr. M. Geddes was not a historian but a Chaplain.

John B. Wilder was not a historian but a writer.

Taylor Bunch was not a historian but a Prophecy author.

Nathaniel Crouch (pseud. Robert Burton) was not a historian but a writer. (16)

Henry Southwell was not a historian but a reverend.

John Wylie was a not a historian but minister of the Free Church of Scotland.

J. M. Carroll was not a historian but a Southern Baptist minister.

Avro Manhattan was not a historian but a British writer.

Charles Chiniquy was not a historian, but a Canadian x-Catholic priest who was twice suspended from his priestly ministry (for moral turpitude).

R. W. Thompson, was not a historian but a politician.

John William Bowden was not a historian but theologian.

Walter j. Veith is not a historian or a “world acclaimed international lecturer” but a zoologist (17)

Frances L. Carroll, was not a historian but simply a housewife.

I could go on and on and on.

Such is the type of references used by evangelical authors when they need to exaggerate historic accounts. With no accountability by a higher order, evangelical authors can do as they wish under the first amendment but as long as man is man, true science and ripe scholarship, and sound reasoning, can be only the heritage of the few. (18)

Similarily, Tim LaHaye, in a description reminiscent to the blood libel against Jews, writes that under the Spanish Inquisition:

“no fewer than 900,000 Protestants were put to death, in the Pope’s war for the extermination of the Waldenses. Think of monks and priests directing, with heartless cruelty and inhuman brutality, the work of torturing and burning alive innocent men and women; and doing it in the Name of Christ, by the direct order of the “Vicar of Christ.” (LaHaye, Revelation Unveiled)

How could 900,000 Protestants be killed in the Pope’s war against the Waldenses when the Waldenses were hundreds of years before the Protestant Reformation?

But we are not willing to remove our books anytime soon and neither will we repent, instead, we choose to slander.

So who truly “drank the blood of the saints”?

Perhaps we can go to what is missing in the equation #1—THE ABSENCE OF CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM WARS; all these Islamic wars against the Catholic Church and Eastern Byzantium with the millions that no historian can even estimate; it was the heretic Unitarian Muslim who denied Father and Son were the ones who killed the Christians.

Isn’t it then time that we at least unite on this truth?

Part of confronting the truth is coming to realization that Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, are being slaughtered every day. Please, give what you can to save the lives of your fellow Christians

1 MacArthur, Preaching: How to Preach Biblically, ch. 3
2 LaHaye, Revelation Unveiled
3 Dave Hunt, James White, Debating Calvinism
4 Anne Bradford Townsend, The Cathars of Languedoc as Heretics, P.p 49
5 Will Durant, The Age of Faith
6 (cf. Lecky, “Democracy and Liberty”, I, 1896, pp. 424 sqq.)
7 Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, page 79, also 242
8 Cecil Roth [orig 1937], page 123
9 Henry Kamen [orig 1965], page 280-1
10 A.S. Turberville [orig 1932], page 112
11 Paul J. Hauben [1969], page 31, from chapter “Juan Antonio Llorente: A Spanish Anti-Clerical View”
12 The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, John 12-21, P.p. 181, Italics mine
13 John Dowling’s The History of Romanism, Book 8, Ch. 1, pp. 542
14 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=119716814
15 http://www.andrewnurnberg.com/authors/peter-de-rosa/
16 CROUCH’S “RELATION OF THE GREAT COUNCIL OF JEWS,” 1796, WITH AN “ACCOUNT OF THE WONDERFUL DELUSION OF THE JEWS BY A FALSE MESSIAH” Brett’s account of the “Great Council of the Jews in the Plains of Hungary in 1650 to Examine the Scriptures Concerning Christ” is today discredited as purely fictional— originally spawned by the Puritan Revolution in England in hopes of converting Jews to Christianity

17 http://walterveith.com/walter-veith-bio.html Professor Walter J. Veith, calims a “PhD Zoology and an ardent student of history and prophecy”, historian Jeff Crocombe, finds serious faults with some references Veith puts forward as ‘facts’

18 The American Catholic Quarterly Review, Volume II, P.p. 498

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  • TexasPGRRider

    “And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free”. (St. John 8:32)… May the Good Lord Continue to guide your efforts, brother Shoebat. Peace be With You and Yours….

  • rhond

    The problem is pride. Everyone thinks their right… everyone thinks their brand of Christianity (denomination, culture) is the right one. Everyone thinks their beliefs are the right doctrine. I have found that NO ONE owns the market. That is why the body of Believers is talked about in Scripture. It says that not everyone is the eye… and some parts are less noble than others…. there is a point to all of that. The point is everyone who confesses the Lord Jesus is the Messiah and believes in their heart God has raised Him from the dead will be saved. It doesn’t say some might be saved, or the Evangelicals, or one of the hundreds of others. They are ALL a part of the body of Christ. God is not swayed by our opinions of others (Thank you, Jesus!) God knows His own… whatever trappings they may be in; it is too bad that pride prevents us from seeing our own family that God has given us to love, enjoy, and be our encouragement. It is also too bad that because of this pride, we are not helping the persecuted Christians like we should be, because “they are not like us.” No wonder Jesus has to separate the sheep from the goats.

    • JCW

      Agreed. A man who thinks he knows everything, sees nothing.

    • Frank Gomez

      Rhond, right on. If we wish to do our masters will we must choose the better way, LOVE . 1Corinthians12:31.

  • Schawminator

    Great post!
    I wish more Christians would spend more time reading and re-reading genius and the book of Enoch

  • C_Simpson

    Very interesting post, thank you.

    Being a member of an evangelical church for many years, I have begun to witness an interesting phenomenon — young evangelical Christians (who know their Bibles very well) converting to Catholicism. The reasons given relate to the Catholic devotion to history and respect for the knowledge and tradition of the early church fathers, and the reverence of Catholic worship services. Whether or not I agree with certain elements of Catholic theology, I am still very glad to see these energetic Christian brothers and sisters strive to deepen their knowledge and faith.

    I share your dream that people who love the Bible would be reconciled in unity — if not in a real understanding of history and agreement on all points of theology — at least in recognition, on this side of Heaven, of our common enemy.

    • I am but one of many who have converted because history, true history, is on the side of Catholicism.

      • Woody

        Thank you for converting for the love of Christ–one candle can light up the darkness.
        God Bless

        • Julie LaBrecque

          For sure. They have to be open to what history proves rather than what the naysayers claim.

          • Woody

            yAH, SWEETIE; I am going to bed ; I have just posted the longest post ever 30,000,000 words to confront such old heresies- will they ever learn?

    • Woody

      Interesting observation as I notice the same thing; we are getting wonderful Protestants such as Scott Hahn and his wife (who struggled for 4 years after her husband came into “Rome Sweet Home”- his book title); and when I read it i really felt her anguish as she described her every step, in love with Scott so much and yet on the brink of divorcing him at one time; I found myself so involved that i cried for her; and I learned–5 Ministers in her family including her day, and what a great dad he is–giving her a prayer to the Holy Spirit and telling her–“pray it for 30 days and then, Elizabeth, you follow what He tells you to do.’ And she did (it was actually funny at times because she hated the Catholic Church and always practiced the pray in front of her day, but always adding on to the Holy Spirit “any Church but the Catholic Church..” until her dad told her to keep an open mind. She was on TV last week and said, “it was her 26th anniversary as a Catholic and she does “not regret 1 second of it.” Well, I couldn’t be anything else since I need to receive His Body and Blood each day of my life….I would miss it dearly. God Bless

      • Julie LaBrecque

        amen

        • Woody

          How did you find me; I was hiding from you–you may covert me to girls. You’re looking bright and sunny this…is it night again? (Gee, just looked where this post took me–you are over here,but you will miss your guy–suchrent or whatever his moniker is? I think he likes you…but I’ll take him over the other faux guy. I have never heard of what is in this article:
          ‘the blood of the saints…” this expression–I wonder if Shoe means “the blood of the Martyrs” which merely means the Church grew strong on their martyrdom …? The first 32 Popes beginning and including St Peter were martyred.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            For the bashers, they think that the martyrs were the ones killed by the crusaders, but, that’s because they have believed what they’ve read & heard from people like Boettner, Hislop, Swaggart, and others. I assure you that they do not have a clue what Henry VIII, Queen Elizabeth, and others did. They are like hungry people at a buffet line and only take what they want.

    • dave_aka_lambsev

      If we are reconciled to God in the Messiah we ARE reconciled to each other. We may live this unity out in a truly “substandard” manner while here below, but one day soon things will be changed and very very different!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Wrong. Jesus said to forgive others. “forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass against us”. Using your theory, I’m going to show you the illogic of it. Your neighbor rapes your wife. He never asks your wife for forgiveness, and your wife never gives it. But according to your plan, he is forgiven.

        • So how many “TRESPASSES” has the Catholic Church tresspassed against us???…I’m waiting……

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Against YOU? So, the Pope is held to a higher standard than, let’s say, 1.Moses (failed to circumcise one in his house, God was going to slay Moses for this) 2. Adam. (failed miserably in the Garden of Eden) 3. Noah (got drunk and his son had sex with his wife) 4. King David(committed adultery and had Uriah sent to the front lines to be killed) 5. King Solomon (too many to list ). 6. Abraham.(slept with Hagar) Looks like all of God’s chosen leaders have fallen short. Please inform us when the protestant churches have asked forgiveness for all the Catholic blood on their hands. Anxiously awaiting your response.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Julie who are speaking to here, if it is me, and my neighbor has stolen my silver, he has sinned against me and my Heavenly Father. First because he has coveted what is mine and second, because all I have comes down from the Father. And would you stop with the Catholic blood on my hands. I don’t have any. I do not and will never believe in corporate sin. That is felonious at best and totally dishonest. So would you please quit with your continued accusatory attitude and try a little humility.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why have you slandered Pope Pius if you don’t feel you have any blood on your hands, I never saw a retraction from your hideous statement that he was in bed with Hitler.
            Your analogy of sin leaves out any sin that is against God, just between you and neighbor. “Jesus said to them again “peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, So I send YOU. And He breathed on them & said ‘receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven, & whose sins YOU retain, they are retained’. From the Didache 70 AD “Confess your sins in the Church…ON the Lord’s Day, gather together, break bread, give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. ORIGEN 248 AD “The remission of sins through Penance, when the sinner does not shrink from declaring his sins to A PRIEST’. CYPRIAN “of how much greater faith and salutary fear are the who confess their sins to the priests of God…while confession is still admissible while the satisfaction & remission made the priests are still pleasing before the Lord. IGNATIUS 106 AD “For as many as are of God & of Jesus Christ are also within the Bishop. And as many shall, in the exercise of penance, return in the unity of the Church..” What Church still resembles the earliest Church? You don’t believe Jesus’ clear statement that he built a Church, he didn’t say churches. How many ‘Israels’ did God created One? Two? Three? What happened when the 10 tribes left to set up their ‘own” Israel? It didn’t bode well.

          • Woody

            Boy, Jesus is proud of you–you really nailed it here; why I love it just as Walid does when they quote from the Book–the Didache, which was here 300 years before the Bible was drafted at the Council of Nicea by the Catholic Bishops in attendance.
            So I think 70 AD,, 106 AD,..and 248 AD beats 1517 years so who would know best–those Christians (all Catholics since there only One Holy Catholic and “Apostolic” Church – the Marks of the True Church of Jesus Christ – [incidentally for the “Johnny Come Lately’s “Christ” is not His Last Name]
            and Walid nailed it–imagine that the first Christians all had “statues” and “Icons” and “Incense” in their Churches,and even the “Vestments” which came directly out of the Old Covenant; and that the Catacumbus – where someone marked St Peter’s initials over 300 times on the walls (take a trip there and see for yourselves-remarkable for such an unimportant character?

          • Woody

            Thank you, god.

          • Woody

            Faux Catholic has not even taken my Quiz? He should know, shouldn’t he as he tries my quiz on for size?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            One avoids what he knows is insurmountable.

          • shoebat

            I know this is old. See response to albeit below.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Who said the Catholic Church trespassed against anyone??? Do you truly believe the church has been perfect in her ways?

        • Cynthia Banks

          Julie, what about the scripture Matt.18:15-20 Do we forgive where there is no repentance. Does our Father require more from us than he himself, would not accept?

          Matthew 18:15-20

          English Standard Version (ESV)

          If Your Brother Sins Against You

          15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[a] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them

          A Brother who Sins

          (Deuteronomy 19:15-21)

          15But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So glad you are aware of these verses. Does your church follow this advice? Do any in your congregation confess sins to the Church. In the ‘many’ churches scenario, how would you and I resolve this? Jesus intended ONE CHRUCH. Jesus gave the power to forgive sins with His church, they can forgive our sins when we confess, and they can retain (not forgive) if they don’t fell true repentance and sorrow.. If we wish for God to forgive us, we are expected to forgive those who sin against us.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Julie bless your heart you have such a presumptious attitude as if God has spoken to you only. I confess my sins to my Father in heaven. But if I fall in weakness, I ask my brothers and sisters to pray for me, for help or deliverance or whatever the case may be. Such as …. The Prayer of Faith
            13Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.… Please note the word “IF”, there be any sin. Not all sicknesses and ailments are due to sin. Any believer can go to their brothers and sisters for prayer, and their fervent prayer touches our Father in Heaven and he forgives…… I am known as a prayer warrior in my church, and a few had miraculous healings, because I believe our Father’s words and so sisters and brothers would come and ask for prayer and two or more would lay hands on as the disciples did and they healed. So I don’t see anything to reconcile. We just don’t believe in calling on priests, when the presbyters or bishops are perfectly capable of performing their duties just as they did in the book of Acts. Paul was a tent maker, all the Apostles and disciples had jobs, and ministered on their own time. It’s so clear in scripture.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you trying to make a point by mentioning that Paul was a tentmaker? If you are, I fail to see it. Jesus told his disciples to leave everything behind, and come follow me. In your scenario, Paul continued by a tentmaker, and Peter continued as a fisherman. You have to assume a lot to think that they continued in their respective businesses when the bible pretty much has them traveling extensively during their time as Apostles. Did Peter carry his boat with him in his travels? They went town to town and had to seek food and lodging from the locals. Doesn’t sound like men you had a pocketful of money from their careers.
            Priest is the English name derived from the Latin Presbyter, the Greek presbyteros., the Hebrew Kohen. Old English languages used ‘prestr’, ‘praster’, ‘priast’

          • Woody

            What happened to Jesus command to His Apostles,”Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; who sins you shall retain they are “retained.”

            Now can this be done unless “One hears them” so a judgement can be made, i.e. do I grant forgiveness,or do I retain.” An example someone who confesses he is living with a woman in a sexual relationship outside the bounds of Matrimony, and he is asked ‘are you sorry for this sin,” – Yah,I sure am.” Are you still living with her?” Or sure I am not going to give her up–she’s hot.” – Your sins are retained!”

            SOURCE:

            Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins*

            John 20:21 – before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins and reconcile men with God, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors as ministers of reconciliantion.

            John 20:22 – the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

            John 20:23 – Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them or the apostles would not be able to forgive anyone. The text makes this very clear.

          • billobillo54

            Cynthia: This site is now toxic to Protestants. If I were you, to avoid needless haggling that will go nowhere, I would go elsewhere. There is NO chance of reconciliation over authority and over the doctrine of salvation and justification, along with many, many other points of theology and practice.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Now as to forgiving sin, you missed the point completely, you don’t measure repentance. The scripture I gave of Matt. requires the brother or sister who has sinned to accept responsibility, if they will not, you take two more, if they still will not you take them before the church. And if they still will not it is clear they are a publican and their sins are not forgiven. That is obedience to the teachings of both Matt. 18:15-20 and Duet 19:15-21

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you consider being repentant for what you’ve done important, or do you believe just admit you’ve done it without any apology, sorrow or contrition?

          • nworder

            Julie – One church, I believe , but where is the one church of truth eg Jesus wrote seven letters to the seven churches in asia – each letter was different pointing out flaws and giving commendations – the most commendation was to the church of Philadelphia – no faults . So this means that each church had different practices from the same baptism, some good and some bad.
            If there was only one church allowed as ruled by Rome then only one letter would have sufficed . The letters showed the churches had autonomy of sorts.
            These seven churches are thought by most to be a timeline as well as types of churches.

            Eg Thyatira is supposed to be Catholic and Philadelphia the
            post refomation churches of wesley spurgeon etc 17th and 18th century etc.

            There is so much profound depth in each of Jesus letters even though they are short. Even the root names of the churches have significance .
            So can a church be local or is there only one leading church ?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You have succumbed to faulty reasoning. There are millions of “churches’ within the Catholic faith, each with their own local authority, but all are under the authority of the Bishop of Rome. Each ‘church’ received a letter based on their strengths and/or weaknesses, and the problems they had encountered due to influences of the locals. No email, copy machines, or faxes when this letter was written. Where does the Bible confirm that Thyatira is Catholic? Where does the bible confirm that Philadelphia is Protestant?- and which one of the 38,000 “protestant” churches would this be in your interpretation? Who then are the ‘other’ five churches? If you read the letters in the their entirety, you will notice that each one concludes with the exhortation “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to THE CHURCHES, i.e., all letters are meant to be heard by all of them. These churches that the letters were addressed to were named because of the city they were located in, and each city had a unique quality, all are now in present day Turkey. Jesus built A Church headed by Peter and Peter’s successors, that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against.

          • nworder

            Many theologians believe that these churches (plural) represent types of churches but also are a timeline of the churches in general. Eg the laodecian (lukewarm) church is today’s church.

            However you can have a Philadelphian church in the laodecian age. Thyatira is thought to be the early catholic church since the characteristics match -it runs right up to the end and apart from those who tolerate jezebel is well commended.

            The seven churches are worth a study by any christian serious in the faith and those who study revelations will blessed.

            Ephesus: The Desired One
            Smyrna: Myrrh; Death
            Pergamos: Mixed Marriage
            Thyatira: Continual sacrifice
            Sardis: Remnant – first protestant
            Philadelphia: Brotherly Love – later protestant
            Laodicea: People Rule – (people pleasing rich churches).

            For 300 – 500 years these churches do not seem to be under Rome’s authority but are independent and founded by various apostles.

            Thomas went to India and founded a christian church – autonomous, until Rome took it over in around 500 ad – I meet a catholic priest when he comes to scotland who gave me this story.

            Its hard for me to believe that all the protestant and orthodox churches are lost since they don’t recognise the Pope’s authority.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Did I say that Protestants and Orthodox are lost? Please don’t put words in my mouth. You seem to blindly adhere to how ‘some theologians’ have interpreted the 7 churches. Since you have asserted that the protestants are the “remnant”, please provide proof from ANY church father or secular historian of the day to prove this claim- You won’t find one that provides any ‘Protestant’ attributes to the early church.
            By what proof can you back your claim that ‘these churches’ did not seem to be under Rome’s authority? I need proof. Early Church fathers absolutely give Rome as the seat of authority.
            Empty accusations and theories are nothing but empty unless you can provide proof. Here’s a quote from prominent Protestant historian Philip Schaff: “The first example of the exercise of a sort of papal authority is found towards the close of the first century in the letter from the Roman Bishop Clement (4th pope). It can hardly be denied that the document reveals the sense of a certain superiority over all ordinary congregations.”

          • nworder

            No you did not say that but the CC issued anathemas against all those christian churches which did not completely subject themselves to papal authority. I did not say that protestants are the remnant but Jesus said to his disciples that only a few , a tiny flock will be saved. This was said to believers. So the remnant could be from many denominations.

            Clement’s letter I have read – it is similar to Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth and Paul was not exercising Papal authority.

            The Church of St Thomas in India was not subject to papal authority for 500 years.

            Plus the church in Britain was well established as the monk Augustine said when he came to evangelise the country on the Pope’s behalf.

            Tertullion, who died in A.D. 222, wrote, “The extremities of Spain, the various parts of Gaul, the regions of Britain which have never been penetrated by Roman arms have received the religion of Christ.” (Def, Fidei, p.179).

            Eusebius wrote at the time of the Council of Arles (314 A.D.), “The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles.” (De Demonstratione Evan­gellii, Lib. 111).

            Jesus gave the churches seven different letters rather than one letter to say the Roman church.

            I dont blindly adhere to these theologians but like to read their point of view.

            The Venerable Bede tells of three encounters Augustine had with these simple believers who had been christians for hundreds of years.

            PAPAL SUPREMACY
            Augustine demanded of the Celtic believers that they acknowledge the authority of the Pope. These humble believers replied to Augustine that if he whom Augustine called Pope was a believer then they would embrace him as a brother in Christ, but to any more “he who you call Pope is not entitled”.

            In 601 somewhere in the Severn Valley, Augustine met with the leaders of the Celtic Church demanding they submit to Rome. All of the leaders, however, one after another got up and spoke out against the usurpations of the Pope.

            When the Celtic believers came near to the haughty Augustine he remained seated and demanded they submit to Rome. When they refused Augustine replied, “you will either join us in evangelising the Saxon or feel their swords”. This was no idle threat, for shortly afterward the Celtic Church settlement at Bangor Is Coed was destroyed and the true saints of God who lived there martyred.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Start at the beginning and find out how the believers there became believers, it wasn’t by fairy dust. You have copied your parcels from people like Chris Richards and the like. If the Celtic ‘believers’ thought Augustine haughty, why did the King give him Canterbury cathedral?

          • nworder

            The Roman army would use gentle persuasion and who built the cathedral ?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’re talking in circles. Be specific.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            This analysis of the Greek is a trifle “fishy.” Check legitimate sources, like a classical Greek lexicon. The Church in Smyrna (“Izmir” today) is addressed by the elderly St Ignatius of Antioch, ca. 107, in a surviving letter, which you can still read. — This is within a few years of the writing of the Apocalypsis of St John. It is clear that the Christians of Smyrna at that time, and their holy bishop, the then-young St Polycarp, later a faithful Martyr, all identified themselves as, and wanted to be known as, Catholic Christians. It is clearly important to them. St Ignatius’ use of the word is no surprise to them, though it is the first time we now find it in surviving Christian literature. It was a word in use among them before this, a word they cherished, because it showed that what they believed and did as Christians in their home town was that which was “believed everywhere, always, and by all” (as St Vincent of Lerins, a little later defined the term). Kata + holon –> katholi-kos was a term coined by Aristotle, at first for botanical science. It means “in accord with the Whole.”
            (Note how Oak trees — some 400 species — all produce Acorns, forming one Genus: “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Local Christians did NOT want to be “doing their own thing” in regard to the essentials of Faith and Practice; they wanted to be visibly united to all the other local churches, scattered throughout the world. Not all Oak leaves are identical; not all Acorns are the same; indeed they vary widely in size and shape; but they have common features. It is what St Luke teaches in Acts 2:42. Stay in the Apostles’ Doctrine and Fellowship [both] (that is, Fellowship WITH the Apostles, in an unbroken succession of Faith and Order); unite in the Breaking of Bread (the Eucharist), and in THE (common liturgical) Prayers.
            When JESUS prayed for Visible Unity among His followers, for all time {St John 17}, He was not indulging in “wishful thinking.” He had already provided them a secure means of Unity, in the “college” of His Apostles. And one among them was designated as their “anchor point.” To deliberately “choose” disunity is an affront to our Lord.
            Let’s work it out! We have a vicious enemy who desires our division, in order to try to overcome our witness to the world. Let’s defeat that enemy!

          • Woody

            i dunno, Julie–one of the nut jobs said the Apostles I guess were out copying scripture texts and sending them around–not sure if they went to Staples or Office Max, or what copy machine they used? He probably is referring to the Churches who were formed as a result of when Peter sent the Apostles out to “preach the Gospel to all nations, like when he appointed St Ignatius of Antioch to be the 3rd Bishop assigned there (Peter had been the first in that See before he went to Rome. None of them know there was no Bible until the Council of Nicea in the 4th Century, and my-how did the Christians live without the Bible? First of all most were not educated and could not read; what they got were the sermons at Mass and mostly done in the Catacombs or places of that ilk; they were to busy hiding from the evil Roman Emperors and since, Christianity was outlawed until Constantine, they weren’t out Xeroxing papers – in addition Bibles were scarce even up to the 15th Century until the Printing Press was invented. The problem with Prots is that they view Jesus’ time with 2014 eyeglasses. All of the Councils were conducted by Catholic Bishops even the first one–the Council of Jerusalem.

          • nworder

            It was called writing and was done by hand by scribes who could write. The council of Nicea authorised the canon which was already well known.
            The NT did not sit on a shelf for 300 years – this is idiotic.
            Most people expecially Jews could probably write better than many now and that includes americans.
            You are fantasising that nothing happened for 300 years.

            There are thousands of original scriptures still in existence.
            Why do you think diocletian and other previous emperors were enforcing edicts to destroy all bibles in the empire.

            The scriptures were also read out to house churches and congregations.

            Bibles were scarce after a few centuries when the church ordered no private use.
            The 38000 churches is nonsense – they are just congregations

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Not only was there no “Bible” other than the Septuagint, which was still open if I recall, but the 1st believers did as the Apostles told them to do. That’s why Paul stresses so heavily to keep the traditions that were handed down. It’s easy to remember how to ride a bike once you’ve learned how. Most of Europe was still illiterate up to the the middle ages, so what good would a Bible be in their hands? Even the eunuch (and eunuchs that served royalty were no dummies) had to ask the scripture to be interpreted for him. No one alive today admits they need any assistance in properly interpreting scripture, and to prove it there are almost 40,000 denominations all using the same book with the same Holy Spirit (or so they say) to interpret it.

          • nworder

            The traditions were and had to be written down – they were written and read at the time. People could read and write . I have read letters from ordinary roman soldiers to their wives – delivered to Italy from Britain in weeks.

            There was the great libraries of the world. Where do you think Augustine got his education and knowledge of scripture.

            Paul told of the thousands of books on the “gods” that were burned.

            The Bible only had to be in a readers hands and he could read to the illiterate. When the printing presses came out people were desperate to read the bible – why ? – because most could read.

            40,000 church buildings maybe but not 40,000 sects – it is gross exaggeration.

            “26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ. John

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So give me the number of Christian denominations and state your source.

          • Woody

            Gee, I don’t get these very often; this is perfect for my quiz;

            REMEMBER JESUS, OUR DEVINE FOUNDER’S Biblical Words “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus and now let us put it to the test to these brilliant guys and gals on this site:

            How come now “120 days only” “one” person has been able
            to solve my QUIZ. [he got it correct]

            How come no one else can solve the “mystery?” – Why —
            the Largest Christian Church in the World by far with 1.2 Billion members (the Catholic Church); yet, no Founder on this site can be found (an oxymoron?) Have at it, people.

            AND, there is the little matter of AUTHORITY; I do not see Jesus in ‘Sola Scriptura,” giving any man any permission to found a Church is His name

            FORMAT AS BELOW:

            Christian & Bible Churches
            Founder
            Year
            Country
            Nr: Members

            Judaism
            Moses
            B.C.
            Israel
            10.7 MILLION

            Catholic Church
            Founder?????
            28 A.D.
            Judea
            1.2 BILLION WOW! The largest Christian Church had no Founder–it just morphed into existence???

            Lutheranism
            Martin Luther
            1517 A.D.
            Germany
            75 MILLION

            Swiss Reformed Church
            Zwingli
            1523 A.D.
            Switzerland

            2.4 MILLION
            Mennonites
            Several Founders
            1525 A.D.
            Switzerland

            1.5 MILLION
            Anglican Communion
            King Henry 8 I AM I AM
            1534 A.D.
            England

            85 MILLION
            Calvinism
            John Calvin
            1536 A.D.
            Switzerland

            80 MILLION
            Presbyterianism
            John Knox
            1560 A.D.
            Scotland
            40 MILLION

            Baptist Churches
            John Smyth
            1605 A.D.
            Holland
            100 MILLION

            Dutch Reformed
            Michaelis Jones
            1628 A.D.
            Netherlands

            2 MILLION
            Methodism
            John Wesley
            1739 A.D.
            England

            75 MILLION
            TOTAL ALL PROTESTANTISM

            600-800 MILLION

            Amish
            Jakob Ammann
            1693 A.D.
            Switzerland
            0.25 MILLION

            Quakers
            George Fox
            1647 A.D.
            England

            0.4 MILLION
            Moravians
            Count Zinendorf
            1727 A.D.

            Germany
            Congregationlists
            John &
            Charles Wesley
            1744 A.D.
            England

            Swedenborg
            Emanuel Swedenborg
            1747 A.D.
            Sweden

            Brethren
            John Darby
            1828 A.D.
            England

            Latter-day Saints
            Joseph Smith
            1830 A.D.
            NY, USA

            15.2 MILLION
            Seventh Day Adventists
            Ellen White
            1860 A.D.
            NH, USA

            Salvation Army
            William Booth
            1865 A.D.
            England

            Jehovah’s Witnesses
            Charles Russell
            1870 A.D.
            PA, USA

            7.65 MILLION
            Christian Science
            Mary Baker Eddy
            1879 A.D.

            Pleasant View, NH USA
            Pentecostalism
            Charles Parham
            1900 A.D.
            CA, USA

            Worldwide Church of God
            Herbert W. Armstrong
            1933/1947 A.D.
            OR, USA 3

            Unification Church
            Sun Myung Moon
            1954 A.D.
            South Korea

      • Cynthia Banks

        I agree Dave, we struggle in this body, to live up to the commands of our
        Father. Many years ago, I took a young woman in, who was quite obnoxious. One morning very frustrated and feeling helpless, at her attitude, this very quiet voice said to me, “It is easy to love my lovable, can you love my unlovable”.. I’ve been working at it ever since.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Wrong. God forgives us as we forgive others.

    • Woody

      One place to begin joining together would be in helping to save the babies. Can you help me understand why Protestants do not join it the pro-life efforts; think what a powerful force we would have…I hope this Gosnell movie comes about.
      Gd Bless

      • Cynthia Banks

        Why is God’s name do you think the Protestants aren’t saving babies? How do you presume something so felonious. Do you have any idea how many Protestant adoption agencies there are in the world. Protestants stand against abortion, where in the name of Jesus are coming up with these off the wall statements???

        • Woody

          Not off the wall; I’ve already asked why the press does not mention them and usually they only mention Dr King’s niece Alveda King (God Bless her); but you always see Rev Frank Pavone, Rachel’s Vineyard, A Ministry of Priests For Life
          Silent No More Awareness Campaign; when you see the lines of Prolife people outside Abortuaries, they show only Catholics and usually praying the Gospel (the Rosary of Our Lady–so your beef is not with me – it is with the News Media who seem to ignore you; if I were you i would not put up with it. As mom said, beware of women with tight corsets. (“no press is no “presence”) and you have given me any names either? As Walid says, SOURCE, Please? You are the same person who endeavored to write a history of 10 centuries and with all the drama that took place never even mentioned Constantine who released the Christians of Persecutions, just because you did not like his policies and that is like talking about the 1930s without mentioning Hitler.

          Even “Roe” is out there protesting and; later, McCorvey’s opinion on abortion changed substantially, and she is now is a Roman Catholic active in pro-life causes. Contents. … Roe v. Wade Main article:

          • billobillo54

            Your statement is erroneous and slanderous. I PERSONALLY am Pro Life and have picketed an abortion clinic FOR YEARS and, with HUNDREDS OF PROTESTANTS, participated in the shut down of the clinic. The Pro Life movement is filled with Protestants.

          • Woody

            Asking why you Protestants are “not getting any press” is not erroneous or slanderous; you should be hurt and after you local papers and TV stations; you need to re-read my question to you and I am glad your partial answer is great; still don’t know why no press though–it makes a difference when one is trying to save babies or else the news will ignore you more; all we ever see is Alveda King, and now I now there are groups of you. My best friends are Protestants and when I ask them the same question they just shrug; but many in the Catholic ranks are also not aware of these assets. Do you also have orgs set up to handle these poor post-abortive women, you know like our, e.g Rachel’s Vineyard? So I guess you are at the March for Life each year too. Great news So no “claim” here…

          • billobillo54

            Here is your statement: “Can you help me understand why Protestants do not join it the pro-life efforts;” That statement is slanderous and erroneous. You lied by claiming that you did not say this.

          • Woody

            you are more interested like all prejudiced persons on “pinning something on a Catholic…” i already thanked you for your answer and your have abridged my remarks–why did you not mention this (I just looked at them)

            Not off the wall; I’ve already asked why the “press” “press”, the PRESS…THE PRESS – DOES NOT MENTION YOUR FINE EFFORTS….

            My point is you do not seem to be very upset by being IGNORED BY THE PRESS, and I also gave CREDIT to ALVEDA KING FOR HER EFFORTS AND WHEN i LAST LOOKED SHE WAS A PROTESTANT…you remind me of Sinthia

          • Woody

            Take a walk–you are no pro-lifer – i have been around them a long time and they are the nicest people in the world; you guys always reveal the truth in yourself like Faux Catholic…

        • Woody

          Not off the wall; I’ve already asked why the press does not mention them and usually they only mention Dr King’s niece Alveda King (God Bless her); but you always see Rev Frank Pavone, Rachel’s Vineyard, A Ministry of Priests For Life
          Silent No More Awareness Campaign; when you see the lines of Prolife people outside Abortuaries, they show only Catholics and usually praying the Gospel (the Rosary of Our Lady–so your beef is not with me – it is with the News Media who seem to ignore you; if I were you i would not put up with it. As mom said, beware of women with tight corsets. (“no press is no “presence”) and you have given me any names either? As Walid says, SOURCE, Please? You are the same person who endeavored to write a history of 10 centuries and with all the drama that took place never even mentioned Constantine who released the Christians of Persecutions, just because you did not like his policies and that is like talking about the 1930s without mentioning Hitler.

          Even “Roe” is out there protesting and; later, McCorvey’s opinion on abortion changed substantially, and she is now is a Roman Catholic active in pro-life causes. Contents. … Roe v. Wade Main article:

      • Apolloone

        Are you just very ignorant? or do you have some personal gripe with protestants? to make such a claim is one or the other possibly both.

        • Woody

          I have many Protestant friends; I am not questioning them; it is the News media you should be questioning; outside of Alveda King whom I love, I never see any “press” on any Protestants and you know that-ask anyone for prolifer’s names and outside of Alveda none are mentioned; Pictures on TV always show lines of Catholics praying the Gospel and you know that-notice that you have once again provided NO SOURCES.
          God Bless

  • kuddels

    Walid: I appreciate your thoughts on this, but I think you need to avoid overstatement. There were certainly a lot of Huguenots that were persecuted and killed who were orthodox, evangelical Christians. Some Christians were persecuted and martyred simply for translating the Bible. I do agree with you that Christians and Jews as well as most western people need to overcome their denial about the evil intent of Islam and its empire building through unrelenting jihad. We have been deceived in school and by the media.

    Also, I think Arabs who are Christians or nominal Christians suffer from Stockholm Syndrome: they have to show their Muslim overlords that they are with the program (anti-Israel, antisemitism) lest they themselves be subjected to greater persecution.

  • JCW

    Overcoming the “Western Centric Christian Worldview” is a troublesome thing. I enjoyed the post Mr. Shoebat.

  • Cynthia Banks

    Walid, thank you for another fine analysis. It is clear who were the ones drinking the blood of the saints and literally in some cases. The very thing they accuse the Jews of doing is what they are guilty of. I just cringe when I see or hear the name John MacArthur, he is the one who says those who speak in tongues, are deluded, that tongues is not a gift for today, but is actually demonic. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…calling a gift of God from the Devil. Like Satan they preach 90 percent truth, it’s the lie that gets you. MacArthur was suppose to be the best historian of our time. How pathetic. But I got to thinking, why do so many hate the least of the gifts…..Probably because it is the most powerful for every believer. A prayer language that edifies the hearer. In other words builds them up in their most holy faith.

    • Woody

      Nonsense; Christ does not give Gifts which disappear; Tongues is a beautiful language … oh, sorry I thought “you” were saying these things. Never heard of MacArthur other than Douglas so I guess I am lucky.

      • Cynthia Banks

        Well one of the gifts is knowledge and it has not ceased…. The gifts have not ceased, they are still operating in any believing Saint who wishes to serve his Lord. I have been blessed to be an instrument of healing to two young women. One had, had Crohns disease for twelve years, she is completely healed by prayer and the laying on of hands. The other was student at Virginia Tech, who was in the ROTC, she had a fallen arch…. they don’t heal, but she too was healed completely. I pray more will seek the Lord and his gifts, and believe he is same yesterday, today and forever and he gives his gifts without repentance.

        • Woody

          Yes, pray for my wife too as she has the arches problem I am a Charismatic. The gifts are wonderful but he also expects TRUTH–they go hand in hand- I will put you in my daily Mass and Communion. As an aside, I had read a brochure of the History of the Charismatics which was supposedly only begun in 1968–but it said, it came from your group; however it also said that the Mainline Protestant Churches did not want “anyone around who speaks in Tongues, does prophecy, etc because that all disappeared with Christ?” Is that factual because the Charismatics (their history took it over when this terrible thing happened. They are the nicest bunch of people, always singing hymns, praying in Tongues and I even had one man who he said for some reason he had a gift for healing ankles – seemed strange to me but who am I to question the HS? Not.
          Now my gal friend had a problem with a lady in her church who is possessed and she asked me if I could find her an exorcist–her minister tried but she said it did not work.
          God Bless

  • Cynthia Banks

    And as far as Catholics, because there has been an exaggeration of their questionable history, it was still, totally anti-Semite and if you are murdering Christians in the Christ and have never denounced it than you are of the spirit of antichrist. It is corrupt in everyway. How can a good seed bring forth evil fruit??? What is the answer to a false church, that leads so many to deaths?

    • Woody

      Wow, this lady is ripe for my quiz; too bad she won’t answer it either; 120 days on here and only one person got it right. No takes, huh?

      New Answer:

      REMEMBER
      JESUS, OUR DEVINE FOUNDER’S Biblical Words “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus and now let us put it to the test to
      these brilliant guys and gals on this site:

      How come after 120 days only “one” person has been able to solve my QUIZ.

      How come no one else can solve the “mystery?” – Why — the Largest Christian Church in the World by far with 1.2 Billion members (the
      Catholic Church); yet, no founder on this site can be found (an oxymoron?) Have at it, people.

      FORMAT AS BELOW:

      Christian & Bible Churches

      Founder

      Year

      Country

      Nr: Members

      BEGIN:Cynthia:

      Judaism

      Moses

      B.C.

      Israel

      10.7 MILLION

      Catholic Church

      Founder?????

      28 A.D.

      Judea

      1.2 BILLION

      Lutheranism

      Martin Luther

      1517 A.D.

      Germany

      75 MILLION

      Swiss Reformed Church

      Zwingli

      1523 A.D.

      Switzerland

      2.4 MILLION

      Mennonites

      Several Founders

      1525 A.D.

      Switzerland

      1.5 MILLION

      Anglican Communion

      King Henry 8 I AM I AM

      1534 A.D.

      England

      85 MILLION

      Calvinism

      John Calvin

      1536 A.D.

      Switzerland

      80 MILLION

      Presbyterianism

      John Knox

      1560 A.D.

      Scotland

      40 MILLION

      Baptist Churches

      John Smyth

      1605 A.D.

      Holland

      100 MILLION

      Dutch Reformed

      Michaelis Jones

      1628 A.D.

      Netherlands

      2 MILLION

      Methodism

      John Wesley

      1739 A.D.

      England

      75 MILLION

      TOTAL ALL PROTESTANTISM

      600-800 MILLION

      Amish

      Jakob Ammann

      1693 A.D.

      Switzerland

      0.25 MILLION

      Quakers

      George Fox

      1647 A.D.

      England

      0.4 MILLION

      Moravians

      Count Zinendorf

      1727 A.D.

      Germany

      Congregationlists

      John &

      Charles Wesley

      1744 A.D.

      England

      Swedenborg

      Emanuel Swedenborg

      1747 A.D.

      Sweden

      Brethren

      John Darby

      1828 A.D.

      England

      Latter-day Saints

      Joseph Smith

      1830 A.D.

      NY, USA

      15.2 MILLION

      Seventh Day Adventists

      Ellen White

      1860 A.D.

      NH, USA

      Salvation Army

      William Booth

      1865 A.D.

      England

      Jehovah’s Witnesses

      Charles Russell

      1870 A.D.

      PA, USA

      7.65 MILLION

      Christian Science

      Mary Baker Eddy

      1879 A.D.

      Pleasant View, NH USA

      Pentecostalism

      Charles Parham

      1900 A.D.

      CA, USA

      Worldwide Church of God

      Herbert W. Armstrong

      1933/1947 A.D.

      OR, USA 3

      Unification Church

      Sun Myung Moon

      1954 A.D.

      South Korea

      • Julie LaBrecque

        I’m glad you provided this list, it should give some pause to think. I think that Herbert Armstrong’s group actually declared either Herbert or one of his successors, to be one of the two witnesses that are to appear before Jesus! I think he’s dead now, and I’m sure he wasn’t slain in Jerusalem like we are told the witnesses will be. One guy in that cult predicted that Jesus would come on a certain date in 2012! Maybe we missed it! What amazes me, is that these false prophets make predictions that don’t materialize, most of their followers stay in that church!

        • Woody

          Yes, and I was “Slain in the Spirit” 2 years ago; what a peaceful trip out 13 minutes.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            awesome

          • Woody

            Yah, I was thinking sometimes we need some humility. As I came through Baltimore AP I got “carded” at the bar. Since I am in age a little less than Moses; I, haughtily, announced, “Boy am I going to throw this in my wife’s face when I get home.” Just then , the lady sitting next to me leaned over and said. “I wouldn’t do that if I were you. No nooky for you tonight.” Humor is also needed.

          • Woody

            I also heard something neat yesterday. Since St. Therese is the “Saint of little things,” and she was in charge of “needlepoint” for her sisters in the convent, one day she had dropped a needle and tried to pick it up 3 times, whereupon she became so anxious and frustrated at her failure–a voice in her head spoke and said, “Therese, Therese, calmly pick up the needle and save a soul,” and she did–Wow, how we humans underestimate the goodness of the Lord, even on what appears to be small things.

          • Woody

            Yah, when i woke up this gorgeous was standing over me so I sez, “Boy. Are you the Holy Spirit; y’all shur are purty?” She said, “No. I’m just a girl.” I said, “Wow. Just think if you look like this, think what the HS looks like.” She helped me up. You should go to Steubenville and teach there alongside Dr. Hahn; you would do well. (Maybe take low rent with you)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Uh, I think I’d be a student at Steubenville. Hahn is so darn smart, he’s just amazing. Have you taken any of his courses online?

      • shoebat

        Woody, I thought I was the only one around here asking checkmate Jesus style questions. Lets see, perhaps I can try to answer, hmmmm … lets see … its a tough one … hmmm. … let me think …. hmmm….. could the answer your looking for is a guy by the name Butrus?

        • Woody

          Just saw this; gee, for a moment I thought you were going to say,”Judas” but I know you better than that; yes, this is a no-brainer and other than what you describe as the “prejudice” you have seen during your life I can’t see why this is so patently obvious; Over 4 months now and one response and there must be 200 persons on this site; then I think well, someone could say, “Jesus did found His Church–but then it went wrong “Duh,;” this is worse because it say “God is dumb!’
          And Jesus was so smart knowing that we humans are so “transient” in brain work and subject to sin, He gave us the Sacrament of Confession; and I was startled at Pope Francis the other day on TV as I watched him “pop” out of line and move to a confessional and confess his sins to a lowly priest.
          Finally, organizations don’t “found themselves,” whether they be Jesus or General Motors and they don’t move along -“leaderless.”
          God Bless, keep up the Lord’s work (oops-I should not have used that term)

          • shoebat

            Woody, millions who say that they believe in the Bible will end up in hell. Some might say that this is not a fair statement. It is. In much of the Bible verses are as clear as “The Sky is Blue”. People with their own prejudice against the color blue would make it red, and if its a homosexual reading the Bible, they would make such verse Pink and extrapolate that Noah’s rainbow was for them and that the flood killed all the bigots … People make fit their own prejudice. If the Bible says that the “Sky is Blue” then it is blue. But then why is it fair for God to toss millions in hell even though they were “believers”. Here is why. When Jesus came the ones who read in Zechariah he comes riding a donkey saw Him on a donkey, while others expected Him to ride a horse. The “horse” followers rejected Him. The question is: where these following God or their rabbinic teachers? They trusted the Rabbis who were twisting what God said to make people follow their traditional interpretations. So, who were these “believers” following: God or men? They were following men and not God. They deserve what is coming.

          • Woody

            Well, I certainly agree and my most egregious example as you know is John VI, where the first Protesters appeared after Jesus attempted to give him that most wonderful miracle in the whole world, …His own Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the form of bread and wine. It is so obvious that the took him “Literally” because THE WALKED AWAY to follow Him no more after saying “This is a hard saying,”
            Only St. Peter and the other Apostles stayed with Him trusting in His Words “This IS my Body – This IS my Blood.’ (not maybe, not perhaps, and note He did not run after these First Protesters saying “No, no you misunderstand me…” — He let them go.”
            But Peter made another of his famous “professions of Faith, saying. “To Whom shall we go?” He give them Holy Communion later too at the Last Supper, “This IS My Body; this IS my Blood.”
            Consistency.
            [You are right though-I can see “prejudice” right away now since they never offer a SOURCE. God Bless

        • Cynthia Banks

          Thanks Walid, but again here is a man with head knowledge, but such an arrogant spirit that he touches no one in a good way as you do. That’s why I know you are my brother

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, I am confused, who has the “arrogant spirit”?

          • Woody

            Yes, SOURCE please.

          • shoebat

            See what I mean? Take a look at Woody, he doesn’t say “how are you doing today?” “Hope your day is going well?” He immediately jumps to “SOURCE please?”. In Bethlehem he would not do that good. First you get an espresso, chat about the weather, then say “SOURCE please?”. You sound like the Egyptian who lived in the country and wanted to go to Cairo to find work. He left his pet cat at his neighbor’s house. A few days later, the cat was hit by a car and died. He then sent a telegram to his friend in Cairo. The telegram said “Your Cat got his by the car and is Dead.” He was so upset and took the next train from Cairo back to the village. He knocked at his friend’s door and reprimanded him saying “How dare you send me a telegram with “your cat is dead”, you should have eased up the shock. Send a telegram that they “Cat is playing soccer with the boys on the street”. Then another telegram that says “Your cat got hit by a car”, then a day later a another telegram “your cat is getting surgery” and then a day later “the surgery was unsuccessful and your cat passed away”. Ease it up a little. So he left to Cairo and a day later he got a telegram from his friend that says “Your mother is playing soccer with the boys”.

          • Woody

            yes, but kind of confused; are you talking about “the failed Jesuit?” Or something else-is this the video mentioned and isn’t this person a ‘woman?” Not a man?

          • shoebat

            We love you Cynthia. Who is the handsome young man next to you? I presume your husband. You two look good together.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Walid that is my husband who will be 77 next month. Yes, he is young in heart and spirit. And we love you too. I have spent the last hour and half reading up on Pope Pius XII and stand corrected, he simply made a covenant to protect the church.

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, your husband looks like a keeper. Its difficult to find good spouses these days. My two sons have a difficult time finding good girls. As far as Pope Pius XII, he was condemned for “not speaking out”, but all who critique him for not speaking out, forget that it is what we do that counts and not what we say. He did much for the Jews. The endless rescue missions he did need to be recognized, yet many Evangelicals bought into liberal slander. These anti-Pope Pius books are written by haters of Christianity. In everything, always look at the source. Here, I will share with you what I have been writing lately which I haven’t yet published:

            I have vowed to write this book as I promised my best
            Jewish friend whose name she did not want mentioned. I feel the pressure, since she funded all the expense to write this book. As much as I have love for her and her wonderful husband who stood by my side for nearly a decade, I am not
            sure how they will take my investigation in this matter of the Popes and the Jews. But my delimea is in all honesty; how can I abandon honesty for friendship in order to support a friend who might simply be wrong. But I am compelled that myths are not easily destroyed; Hitler’s Pope by John Cornwell
            and Constantine’s Sword, that Pope Pius XII was a Nazi collaborator are perfect examples of sheer slander. I pray to the Lord of Israel to forgive if I erred here, but in researching and as wisdom requires, the town gossip is usually an
            exaggerated truth, but when we seek with all our heart, mind and soul to find the plain truth, God will provide, but such truth will definitely be as Christ experienced in which even Peter denied Him—thrice. Nevertheless, in the end Peter realized his folly, went on the path of truth to even die for it, and so
            will I.

            This legend of Hitler’s Pope began in earnest in 1963 with a drama created for the stage by Rolf Hochhuth, an otherwise obscure German playwright, called The Deputy. We can include the popularization of that thesis in John Cornwell’s Hitler’s Pope. Notwithstanding the fact that no serious historian today agrees with the deconstruction of
            Pius, the Catholic urban legend of Pius as a Nazi collaborator persists on a popular level because of these two works and a few recent imitators.
            *http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-five-most-influential-anti-catholic-books*

            While Cornwell later retracted his extremist view stating that he intended his book as a defense of Pius XII but
            that “nearing the end of my research… [t]he material I had gathered, taking the more extensive view of Pacelli’s life, amounted not to an exoneration but to a wider indictment”. He also wrote: “scope for action was severely limited”, but that “[n]evertheless, due to his ineffectual and diplomatic language in respect of the Nazis and the Jews, I still believe that it was incumbent on him to explain his failure to speak out
            after the war. This he never did.” *The Bulletin (Philadelphia, 27 Sept. 2008)*

            He also described Pacelli as effectively being in collusion with the Nazi cause.

            *John Cornwell. Review of Hitler’s Priests: Catholic Clergy and National Socialism. By Kevin P. Spicer.
            in Church History: Studies in Christianity and Culture, Volume 78, Issue March 2009, pp 235-237. Published online by Cambridge University Press, 20 February
            2009.*

            Indeed, Pacelli was not focused so much on talking (even though he did in many occasions) but doing was his main
            goal, he sheltered Jews throughout Italy; the majority of Italian Jews—some 80 percent—survived the Second World War, during the years when, across Europe 80 per cent of Jews died. *see J Lichten’s book A Question of Moral Judgement* J
            Lichten in his book A Question of Moral Judgement, he writes:

            “The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings
            were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few
            specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews – the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and
            basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope’s summer residence [according to Rabbi David Dalin, at least 3,000 found refuge there],
            private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy.”
            *Joseph Lichten, (1963), A Question of Judgement: Pius XII and the Jews. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Catholic Conference. P.p. 126*

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, I know that Julie and Woody at times could be rough on the edges, but they are truly sweet people once you get to know them. After all, they went to Catholic school and there they had some strict discipline. So just take it easy when they talk straight. They are straight talkers, sort of like New Yorkers. I know in California folks are a lot nicer, but they are not as smart as New Yorkers. I bet these two are from the East Coast originally. Mind if I ask, where are you from Cynthia?

          • Cynthia Banks

            Yes, Walid I am a fourth generation Californian. Living in Nevada. And I am blessed to have another believing husband to share my walk with Christ, who is from Oregon originally, and then a chiropractor in Washington until he retired.
            Woody and I do just fine, we can come together on common ground in the word. That is what is critical for the body of Christ in these End times. If I were to write to Woody right now, one man honored the day as unto the Lord and one man honored the day as free in the Lord, I’m sure he would understand that teaching immediately. Julie assumed things said, I did not say. Why I don’t know. Life is too short, to use God’s Word as an occasion for argument. The Word does not lie. History does all the time. So as you have said you see the Catholics lean towards history and the Protestants lean to the bible. It is far more important right now, that we learn how to survive these last days, not who did what when. Being prepared to die for our faith, not getting raptured out of it.
            If we were to have a valuable discussion to edify and bring the body together, it would be Isaiah the widow and her son. It would be Jesus and loaves and fishes. It would be our total dependence are Christ as our provider and deliverer, even if we are delivered unto death

        • Woody

          How do you get so unique Phrases? I love this phrase “checkmate Jesus” I am going to steal it

          • shoebat

            Jesus loved Chess, he played with the Pharisees when they asked Him a question, if you recall He asked “was John the Baptist from God or from men?”. This was “Checkmate” Jesus style. I have hundreds of Checkmate Jesus style questions. I love it. What Jesus was saying in that incident is that as Christians, we can silence the world by challenging them with a question. I spotted your question and I saw that besides that you are good in Kung Fu, you are also an expert on Chess.

      • Cynthia Banks

        Woody, this is such a waste of time….why….no one saw your questions because you didn’t post it properly for all to see.. And even the answer, enlightens no one. The Muslims have been presecuting and killing Christians for almost 2000 years. Walid has been shouting this from the roof tops…. he has already exposed and taught the truth in an excellent manner. Let’s focus on what he is trying to teach. I may not agree with all that the Catholic church has done, but I do respect it.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          From your earlier comments, you do not respect the Catholic Church AT ALL. Let me remind you of your statements
          1. They were and are totally anti-Semite.
          2. Have murdered Christians.
          3. Corrupt in every way.
          4. False Church
          Muslims have existed for 1400 yrs. What ‘Christians’ did they have in their sights slaughter? What ‘Church’ did they wish to destroy?The Protestants that didn’t exist til 1500’s? The orthodox, who split in 1000’s??.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Can you dispute that during World War II, that the Catholic Church was on the side of Hitler? Can you dispute, that by 300 the Jews were being driven from the faith, and all Holy Days were changed from the Lord’s Feasts Days to pagan holidays. You cannot. However, there is a very alive movement within the Catholic, that has allowed Holy Spirt, to enlighten and teach, and call the church to repentance and this cannot be denied. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. We are to take the Word God, and rightly divide it and remain faithful to it. That does not mean we must be silent and pretend the atrocities did not happen. I have a dear friend who was a catholic deacon in Upland California. He was chosen to incense the Pope in 1987, he was my husbands pharmacist. My husband was shot a paralyzed, he was LAPD, and we grew very close to this couple. We fellowshipped with them about every week. I do not hate the Catholic Church or Catholics, but I find false teaching disgraceful. Would you like to break it down by subject. If you listened to video that was posted, you’ll find the Catholic Church changed it position and made declaration with the Lutheran Church, that we are saved by Grace alone not works. They are coming to realization on many subjects. Just as all denominations are, none of us is without fault.

          • Woody

            Yes, you really are entrenched in prejudice – the “Myth of Hitler’s Pope” has been refuted many Rabbi’s most notably, Rabbi Dallin who wrote a book on the myth which you follow (I note that again you provide no SOURCE) Rabbi Dalin is only one of my sources:

            Dalin first presents evidence to support his conclusion that popes through history have defended the Jews, and that they have refuted attacks like the blood libel.

            Then he gets to the main part of the book: defending the reputation of the late Pope Pius XII by presenting extensive documentation culled from Church and State archives throughout Europe. Rabbi Dalin suggests that Yad Vashem should honor Pope Pius XII as a “Righteous Gentile”, and documents that Pius was praised by many leading Jews of his day for his role in saving more Jews than Schindler. Pius’s admirers included Chief Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog of the Palestinian Mandate and Israel, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Israel’s first president Chaim Weizmann.

            Dalin also presents Albert Einstein as one of the Jews who supposedly praised Pius XII, writing that Einstein “paid tribute to the ‘courage’ of Pope Pius and the Catholic Church”.[2] He references a 23 December 1940 article in Time magazine and quotes Einstein as saying in the article that “Only the Catholic church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth.”[2] However the article actually quoted Einstein saying, “only the church”, not the “Catholic church”.[3] In a 1943 letter Einstein said he made a statement “which corresponds approximately” with Time article, but that it was made much earlier than 1940 “during the first years of the Nazi regime” and that his actual comments were “more moderate.”[4] In a 1950 letter Einstein said that his quoted remarks from the Time article were “not my own”, that they had been “elaborated and exaggerated nearly beyond recognition” and that he was “predominantly critical” of the clergy.[5] In a 1943 interview Einstein was extremely critical of the Catholic Church’s behavior under the Nazis, and also singled out Pope Pius XII for criticism because of his Concordat with Hitler, saying “Since when can one make a pact with Christ and Satan at the same time?”[6]

            Dalin writes:

            “anti-papal polemics of ex-seminarians like Garry Wills and John Cornwell (author of Hitler’s Pope), of ex-priests like James Carroll, and or other lapsed or angry liberal Catholics exploit the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today.”

            So this puts you in with no Truth again about what you speak.

            Even Hollywood knows better than you (and they are usually a bunch of ateists); go forth and rent the movie, “The Red and the Black,” which is the story of the brave nuns and priests who risked heir lives by hiding our Jewish brethern in their convents at the risk of their own lives.

            Unfortunately, if your find “false teaching disgraceful” you have become what you hate.

            “…so much nonsense here…no Luthern position, other than the centurie’s old (denial of Works) which Luther even tried to take it out of his failed Bible (missing 6 whole books)–don’t believe it–get a hold of the extant “Septuagent – Jesus Bible and do a count of the books in it–72 not 66. Again, this is a simple test of your beliefs.

            Must be a new ;practice “incensed” the Pope–what did he have scurvy or something?

          • Cynthia Banks

            You believe what you want, I will believe the Word of God. Period….

          • Woody

            You missed “Love thy neighbor.”

          • Cynthia Banks

            No honey, telling the truth is loving my neighbor. and when I’m wrong I admit it. So few do, they too caught in their pride. I love my neighbor everyday… I don’t need to write every verse for it to be understood. You’ll see, be patient.

          • shoebat

            And this is Bruce Lee

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I sure can dispel that the Catholic Church was on Hitler’s side. I don’t have to, because historical records of newspaper reports and articles repels the myth on its face. All newspapers, both secular and Jewish, praised Pope Pius II and the The Catholic church both during the war and after for the assistance given to the Jews. Many of the Jews in Italy were hidden in convents, monasteries, private homes of Catholics, and in Castel del Galfo. Golda Meir eulogizied Pius’ death publicly delivered at the United Nations, Pinchas Lapide, a Jew, gives specific details of the great assistance that Pius & the Church provided, and the chief Rabbi of Rome, Rabbi Zolli, converted to the Church after the war and took as his baptismal name “Eugenio” in honor of Pope Pius’ given name. I don’t know what video your are talking about, and please list the false teachings so I can address them on at a time. It seems to me your biggest “beef”, is this so-called anti-Semitism, which is totally false, and further, it is pure slander. You probably don’t know, since you’ve omitted any reference to it, that Martin Luther harbored bitter animosity and hatred to the Jews, and the proof, if you care to research, is a book Luther wrote entitled. “On the Jews and Their Lies”. Hitler used Luther’s book to justify his actions. Luther called the Jews “a base, whoring people, no people of God, must be accounted as filth, full of devil’s feces, who swallow like swine.” I feel that you have been mislead by the many people, in hatred for the Church, want to tear it down, and this will never end.

          • Woody

            Boy, you are really resourced with the TRUTH, kid. SOURCE? SetRent would even be proud of you, oh–I forgot the poor guy stopped asking when he began to receive SOURCE; just like this lady–no SOURCES.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It’s hard to sit back and take attack after attack on your church, its been going on for years, and what’s really maddening is the number of people like miss Banks, they just repeat crap they’ve read or heard, do not validate or research it, then get irate when the hammer comes down on them. They start with labels, and how mean I’ve been (they’ve only slandered and repeated lies, which is called out as sin), call me “cocky, arrogant:”, “little brainwashed Catholic girl”, etc.” I call this lady out for slander and hypocrisy which offends her, she’s upset and wants me to pray before commenting! But, this doesn’t apply to her, only me!
            In one of her responses, she informs me that Walid has previously set the record straight on all the falsehoods pinned on Catholics, well, then why did she feel compelled to start the slander? I can see though her, she can’t fool me. She’s a passive aggressive if I’ve ever seen one. They like to cloak themselves as some pious saint huddled up in prayer to hide the boiling pot they’ve got under their seat. I’m pure unadulterated aggressive, not trying to hide anything, but do need to be more like Fr Kelley! If anybody had read Walid’s articles about the Catholic Church, then if they ever bring up these falsehoods that have “already been set straight”, it tells me that in her core, she absolutely believes the crap and wants others to believe it too.

          • Woody

            Yes, I heard on the radio yesterday a term I just love…”performing a “fraternal correction” which comes from St Thomas Aquinas…[the Dumb Ox–yah Right) This is what St Paul did always kindly blasting those Corrinthians (sp?) I wish they would change their name so I can spell it.

          • Woody

            yah, I think you are right or at the very least she is ‘schizoid,” because I got a very nice article from her on Antioch but she skips over so much history – it seems her mind cannot handle in; I liked the article so much i kept it. A Walid says, prejudice warps (my intrpretation) the mind so much that even the person may not know it

          • Julie LaBrecque

            How dare you ask for sources!! Let’s not get confused with facts! I just remembered the first Walk For Life that I attended. After the mass was over and the procession began, within the first block after the procession turned left, there were some ‘nice’ protestants lining the sides of the street with signs that said “repent, you are going to hell”, just ridiculous, some stuff I can’t even say. Instead of joining the ranks to end abortion, they hold their abominable signs and shout horrible things to us. What a contrast.

          • Woody

            That is really bad; so many of these poor ladies are young about to make a bad decision and we have never been in their shoes–their boyfriend has abandoned them; some pressuring them to “kill their baby.” I love our places like “Rachel’s Vineyard” who assist these poor women. Darn Julei–you made me cry….my wife, Snugglebunny I call her told me,”For goodness sake will you quit crying at everything. I told her I cannot help it since I attended that weekend with the Charismatics – the other day I saw a blind man at Mass and just began bawling; I walked into Krogers to me my wife who was talking to her friend and she mentioned she just took her nephew in and he just got out of “boys prison.” I started crying; She looks at me and says to Snuggle “What is wrong with him?” Snuggle said, “Oh, pay no attention to him’ he cries over everything nowadays.” {The lady at the prayer meeting said, “Not to worry as it is natural after an encounter with the HS and it is common and even has a name–it is called “tears of the Spirit.”
            But that brings up another question, “Perhaps a nice Protestant on this site can answer it for me, I never seem to see or hear any Protestant people at the Pro-life gatherings to save our babies?”That puzzles me. The only one I see is Martin Luther King’s niece and she is wonderful; even persons like Abby Johnson?? former abortion clinic head is now Pro-life. Row of Row versus Wade is pro-life; Dr Nathanson before he died, did many good acts and I am sure Jesus forgave him for the many abortions he personally did. getting a second wind now that Julie wound me up–going to bed to snuggle with my bunny.
            Good night and God Bless all here (the Irish Bar blessing)

          • shoebat

            This is Bruce Lea

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’ve missed the punch line- I notice the Lea, not Lee,
            Oh, I just got it.!!

          • shoebat

            Don’t say I didn’t warn you. Now you bring up Hitler and the Pope. Watch how she goes at it. Look at the other one “Woody”, he chimes in. Trust me Cynthia, I used to think the same things about Hitler’s Pope, to only find out this is all myth. Pope Pius XII saved more Jews than any man in history. It is simply not true. Now, you perhaps do not want to believe me, but do your own investigation. I did. As far as “Saved by Grace”, it was always there in the Catholic Church, they always taught it. They simply differed with Luther on the word “alone” with “Faith” and stated that “Grace alone” and not just Faith by itself saves. God’s Grace on us is what saves us. Luckily for me, I was not born in this western schism and I read the Bible. I have no bone in this fight except that I want to correct the errors.

          • Woody

            Yes, I like the way you put that–I still cannot understand (and a kind Protestant somewhere put on this site – “a pic of Luther’s Bible where he had “scratched” in the word “alone” in German so it is just because for some reason he did not like “works” and we know there is plenty of Biblical references to “works.”Why the big “Hu-do over this is beyond me…another place Jesus says He will judge us on our “Deeds (works). Since I am not Protestant I can only surmise it must go back to another Prot invention which is not plausible and I call it “wishful thinking” – “once saved always saved.” Lots of luck on that one–St Paul was one of the Holiest persons in that motley gang of Apostles and he said “work out your salvation “in “fear and trembling” (this not seem like a man who believes he is saved?) Patrick Madrid was asked this question on his great radio show the other day (by the way tons of Prots call in -they like him a lot) He said, “Let’s say a guy is 28 years old and he accepts Jesus as his Lord God and Savior–now fast forward to the End Times and this same guy accepts the dreaded “Mark of the Beast…’ and now all this time he “thought he was saved,’ so that ended that. Incidentally this scenario actually happened this caused considerable “pain” for the early Bishops of Rome. While we have so many great martyrs during the Roman persecution who “died” for Christ rather than deny Him; but we also had persons who “chickened out” (and believe me i am not judging them since I have never been in their situation–these were called by the early Christians–the “Lapsis;” and later the pope was asked (I forget which one) “What are we going to do with these guys who denied Jesus which is probably a most serious sin?” I do know the Pope convened his Bishops and wrestled with this problem for some time; – I believe they did come up with the correct solution-“one can always be forgiven by Jesus once a person has sincere sorrow.” [I will look this up again]
            God Bless

          • Cynthia Banks

            As to your last question, believers are believers, I don’t believe in denominations…. The church who believed followed Christ, not a man, not a religion.. The Church has always been called by different names, they were first called Christians at Antioch…not Catholics, not protestants, none of those….. So I don’t go there except to explain a position or doctrine. And let me remind us all the Word Of God is not to be used as an occasion for argument. You give the Devil his dues, when there is only your way of thinking.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Well, they were referred by other names, such as “the new Jewish sect, and the “Jewish Chestus Sect”. You state that we aren’t to use the Word of God as an occasion for argument. What do you call using the Word to dispel false doctrines? Further, the Word of God tells us that Jesus DID INDEED built A Church. Read Matthew 16

          • shoebat

            The first Possible Jesuit spy 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            LOL!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            LOL!!

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, what Julie is trying to say is that we can’t simply say that all the Christians were simply called “believers”. To add to Julie’s titles, they were also called “The Followers of the Way”. They had used titles and names for Christians from time immemorial. What Julie is trying to get at (I hope I am representing her correctly) is that she wanted to you do a little investigation as to what happened to these “believers” during the first few centuries. What were they like in the first century? What can we find from history and archeology as to how these Christians practiced the faith? I always see this scenario on my blog. It goes like this: Evangelicals argue from the Bible, and its rightly so that we argue from Scripture. Catholics do not agree on some of these interpretations. Then the two parties get into heated debate. Catholics interpret from a “historic” reference while Evangelicals interpret from a “modern” reference. Catholics want to bring Protestants/Evangelicals to this rich history and they want the to see how EARLY CHRISTIANS understood Scripture. While there are problems on all sides, it is crucial for both THE CATHOLIC to understand the Bible and the EVANGELICAL to understand HISTORY. Christ, the Christians, the Temple, Israel …. it is all linked to History. So the Bible must be understood within its eastern historic context. Now, let us all put aside frivolous arguments, and focus on reasoning together. Shall we? Walid.

          • shoebat

            My I add, these few Catholics are good in history. They are sort of like Bruce Lee who could walk in a crowd of Evangelicals and begin arguing from stuff we never heard of. So be proved with caution when you get in the ring and fight. You really need to be prepared. I learned this lesson years ago and got my first black belt. But guess what, I could not get such a belt without stealing such knowledge from ancient Catholics who were the best in the art. This is why I love Catholics. Now when I say “Catholic”, I mean the Bruce Lee types who love the Word and love History. They are scattered all over the place and some are here observing us (possibly Jesuit spies) and they must have learned their skills from golden belts 😉

          • shoebat

            My I add, these few Catholics are good in history. They are sort of like Bruce Lee who could walk in a crowd of Evangelicals and begin arguing from stuff we never heard of. So proceed with caution when you get in the ring and fight. You really need to be prepared. I learned this lesson years ago and got my first black belt. But guess what, I could not get such a belt without stealing such knowledge from ancient Catholics who were the best in the art. This is why I love Catholics. Now when I say “Catholic”, I mean the Bruce Lee types who love the Word and love History. They are scattered all over the place and some are here observing us (possibly Jesuit spies) and they must have learned their skills from golden belts 😉

          • Cynthia Banks

            Walid, I would like to think that you read all my comments. You obviously didn’t because you have made assumptions against your teaching, which I did not. I rather thanked you and supported it. Please tell me going back in comments, where the error started? I don’t feel it frivolous, to speak the word in Spirit and in Truth. I will not whitewash any religion, warts and all they need to be exposed, repented of by all faiths. We can not walk together lest we be agreed.

            It is unfortunate this day in age, that no repentance is sought or demanded. It’s like the child says you stepped on my toes on accident so I knocked your teeth out. No thought, no reasoning, just justifying bad behavior? Do you believe in justifying horrendous behavior? I don’t. And Julie is a big girl, without the Spirit of Love that Christ taught. Trust me I have studied the history of the church. You may not like my conclusions, but I have studied. And with all respect I would also love to know what frivolous argument I am making….

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, I must admit, I am lost here. My wife always warned me not to comment much on my blog since I aways get in trouble. Am I in trouble?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If you’ve REALLY studied the history of the church, and I don’t believe you are being truthful, then how can you be so blind to the truth it proves? Are you being obtuse?

          • Woody

            My Lutheran friends told me he was anti-Semitic ? I am old but not that old–I did not know him?
            I wonder if he continued saying Mass after he left Jesus’ Church, and thus the First Lutherans must have been able to receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord…interesting then it may have disappeared after he died? Hmm, another Lutheran on this site said he left because he had a girl friend–I wonder is he ever married? I will have to ask my friends Debbie–she is staunch.

          • shoebat

            Oh ya, be careful of this one, he’s he too could be a Jesuit spy

            🙂 here he is on video:

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Luther hated the Jews, and wasn’t afraid to publish it. I’m sure he celebrated mass, but since he was no longer in the Church, his ordination was invalidated, therefore, any Mass done by Him had no force. He did believe in the real presence, but in a different sense, he called it “consubstantiation”, which means the presence of His flesh was with the bread, not that the bread completely changed to flesh. Zwingli was the one who declared it was all symbolic. Geez, Even the OT manna was called “Bread from Heaven.”, and ‘Bread of Angels’. Paul even refers to the old manna as “supernatural” food and drink. How can ours be less?

          • Woody

            Thanks for the clarification. Consubstantian was deemed heretical by one of the Churches Councils — and this is why St Paul told Timothy to “…listen to the Church.” And of course this eliminates all that “self-interpretation” nonsense which has now led to over 32,700+ substantial “denominations” as she implies the Church Jesus founded is a “denomination” but by its very name it requires “2” or more because this word is a “distinguishing” word and. of course Jesus founded only One Church and the only One (since He IS GOD), and has the only authority to even “found” a Church with HIS Teachings. I don’t think God needs any help by man–look what man has done when deviating from His Teachings– 5 Sacraments went down the tube, the Eucharist became mere bread and wine which you can get at any Giant Eagle or Kroger’s store. What a loss the man-made religions. But then again He always knew we were “shlucks” if there is such a word–but I like it, and that is why He gave us that wonderful miracle of Confession (Penance)
            Hey, did you see that great word Wallid used to me–I love it “Checkmate Jesus,” – I told him I am going to steal it. What is LaBrecque? French isn’t it? She sent me a long post which I like but it is also kind of Schizoid–doesn’t seem like the same woman who we have been in dialogue with?
            God Bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I saw that, we could refer to you as CMW! you know what happens when you put somebody in CM, right? They respond with a ‘really’ nice name for you, accuse you of being mean, or change/disregard the subject. Their failure on believing in Sacraments is really being just half a step away from being gnostics. They forget that all things were created BY Him, and FOR him. They don’t realize the impact that statement has, BY HIM FOR HIM. Most times, God uses ‘things’ to convey his power, authority, and grace. He uses people, water, bread, wine, oil, bones, handkerchiefs, staffs, and “The Book”. Where would they be without this ‘thing’ we call the Bible! “Whosever sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven, whosever sins YOU retain, they are retained. These ‘people’ have to say that Jesus didn’t really mean that. They also don’t believe in difference in gravity of sin, even though the Bible says there is. They say the same for the verse “Love covers a multitude of sins”, because it doesn’t fit their theory, and neither does the “Our Father”, because it reveals that our forgiveness by Him depends on our forgiving those who sin against us. Ignatius declares “avoid all divisions, as the beginnings of evils”. French-yes it is, I do have French blood, but my maiden name is a Black Dutch.

          • Woody

            Not sure–CM CMW ? You should have been a priest…very good Apologist. And for years they also have been saying ‘no to the categories of sin’, “venial” and “mortal,” as if there is no difference between stealing a Mounds Bar and a murder? How crazy is that?; how logical is that? They only reject it because it is Catholic teaching; they lack what we have in wonderful Theologians such as the smartest man who ever lived “Aquinas.” All they see is “well, I can’t find that in the Bible?’ No kidding. Probably because Luther’s theory is erroneous. Adolph Harnack, the last Protestant Theologian I can remember, was pretty good and fair; however he warned they are “prejudiced, and some–blind to truth (Peter was never in Rome,was his example) which he studied all of his life.. I can see that like the other lady who makes a scholarly presentation, yet fell for the “lie” of “Hitler’s Pope” which even the top Jews reject (Golda Meir) etc.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They fall for it because they want to. Never mind concurrent history of the era. Better to read non-historians and liars.

          • shoebat

            I think II need to do an article comparing Pope Pius XII with Luther who wrote “The Jews and Their Lies”.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Great idea! Let’s see how the naysayers react when Pius is juxtaposed against Luther. Another quote I remember of Luther, when the ‘reformers’ were meeting, was “we must be sure we all remain whole and united in our doctrine with no schisms lest the papists have cause to ridicule us”. That is terribly paraphrased, but, you get the drift.

        • Woody

          Still no answer, other than from Walid, who sent me a “Touchdown Jesus.” Doesn’t it seem strange to you that every church is existence has a founder and is known; only the largest Christian Body in the world just “morphed” into existence? I don’t think Jesus would think “it is just a waste of time,” I believe He said “….that ALL be ONE. That’s what I like about Walid–he is so open minded and follows the truth even if it leads one to discomfort. I made no reference to “Muslims.” on my post. We don’t believe in “denominations” either. Jesus did not found a denomination (He founded the “Trunk”), since He was and IS the only Authority to found His Church [not the multiple “founders” of churches that are over 32,750 in the world today–all founded by Man) and either He did that – or He lied, and I do not think God Lies. You also got your facts wrong; Jesus Church was first called “the ;people of the Way, ” until that ugly heresies crept in and the Faithful (were getting confused), so in 107 AD they asked St. Ignatius – who was at the time the 3rd Bishop of Antioch appointed to that Position by St. Peter, the 1st Bishop of Antioch, and who had been crucified upside down by Ignatius’ time (Clement) was the 3rd Bishop of Rome at this time and was later Martyred for Christ), and he(Ignatius) answered the people’s questions,” {which one is Jesus Church?}…look to Rome for Jesus Church’ for that Church is truly Catholic [Greek for Universal] (first use ever) and the name has stuck ever since (by the way Iggy wrote 7 letters on his way to be eaten by Lions) and they are extant…so you can look this up all by yourself if you seek the Truth as Jesus said. “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” Thank you Jesus for your Words. I did read your stuff below and see, like others, you make up what you want to believe without referencing any SOURCE like Walid likes to see.

          Anyway you did answer that you believe “Jesus did not found a Church.” [and that puts you in an awkward position of believing God is a liar. That’s where you should not go…not away from the Truth…

          • Cynthia Banks

            “AND THEY WERE FIRST CALLED CHRISTIANS IN ANTIOCH …”

            by Metropolitan Elias (Audi) of Beirut

            ANTIOCH was the second most mentioned city in the Acts of the Apostles and the third city of importance in the Roman Empire. It was founded by Seleucus I in 300 B.C. on the Orontes, and was named after his father Antiochus. It was known for its splendor and beauty. After the Romans occupied it under the leadership of Pompey in 64 B.C. they competed among each other to make Antioch the “Queen of the East.” They built temples, theatres, public baths, bridges and aqueducts. Besides its adornment, it was “notorious for the profligacy of its pagan population.”

            Its location, on the river Orontes and 21 miles from the sea, made it a center of trade “being easily approached by the caravans of the East and through its port Seleucia having maritime communication with the West.”

            This landmark of Syria, because of its location, size and importance in the Roman Empire, moved to be the second center of Christianity. Nicolaus, one of the seven deacons chosen to serve tables, was a proselyte from Antioch and was probably the first Christian from that city. To Antioch, the first Christians fled the persecution which followed the death of St. Stephen, the martyr. Here the word of God was preached to Jews and Gentiles by Barnabas, a man full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, and Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles. In Antioch, the followers of Christ were called, probably out of mockery, Christians for the first time.

            The Jews of Antioch who were converted to Christianity were divided into two groups. The first group adhered to all that was old: yet the second group found it necessary to mix with the Greeks and become Hellenized. An issue was raised between these two groups over whether the Gentile had to be circumcised or not. The dispute between St. Paul and St. Peter, which occurred in Antioch, was an aspect of this conflict. It is from this atmosphere of zeal and concern, of prophecy and teaching the first missionaries to the Gentiles which set forth the spreading of the Word of God.

            Although the Book of Acts tells about the disciples fleeing to Antioch, about Barnabas who was sent by the Church in Jerusalem, in addition to other prophets and teachers (specifically, Symeon, who was called Niger; Lucius of Cyrene: Manaen, a member of the court of Herod the Tetrarch; and Saul) by the writings of ecclesiastical historians the tradition holds to St. Peter as the founder of the Church of Antioch around the year A.D. 34. However, being occupied with his missionary work, St. Peter appointed Evodius as his helper and successor. But, in fact, the history of the See of Antioch begins with the Ignatian Epistles, written shortly before the martyr’s death. Of the episcopate of Ignatius, which may be assumed to have lasted from about A.D. 70 to 112. we know absolutely nothing until the saint received the “sentence of death.”

            The bishop of Antioch exercised a great influence on his colleagues in Syria. At the beginning of the fifth century, the jurisdiction of Antioch extended to Syria, Palestine, Arabia and Mesopotamia. These included eleven ecclesiastical provinces with more than one hundred and fifty suffragan bishoprics. Antioch also exercised suzerainty over the churches of Persia and Georgia which she herself had founded.

            But Antioch soon lost this position of eminence when Arianism and internal schisms greatly weakened it during the fourth century. Constantinople took from it the second place of honor in the hierarchy of ancient patriarchates. In 431, the council of Ephesus bestowed on the Church of Cyprus its independence from Antioch.

            In the first half of the fifth century a new heresy was spreading. Nestorius, a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia’s at Antioch, originated the idea that there were two persons in Christ. This controversy was carried on when Nestorius was the Archbishop of Constantinople. This Christological issue put Alexandria and Antioch, who favored Nestorius’ views, on the verge of a schism. “A council at Antioch in 430 warned Nestorius to avoid excess. At the council of Ephesus in 431, Nestorius was deposed, the Antiochene party was defeated by Cyril of Alexandria and the territorial jurisdiction of the Antiochene See was reduced in favor of the See of Jerusalem … Two synods were later held at Antioch at which peace with Alexandria was restored.”

            The period of the second half of the fifth century and the sixth century was a period of struggle between the Chalcedonians and the Monophysites. Until the end of Emperor Anastasius’ reign (491-518). the Monophysites were at their peak.

            From the time Justin I ruled Byzantium in 518 to the end of Justinian’s rule in 565, the story was reversed and the Monophysites were the target of persecutions. Withholding all that, the Monophysites managed to keep an organized Church.

            During Justinian’s reign, many catastrophes befell Antioch: “a devastating fire (525) was followed by two severe earthquakes (526 and 528) all resulting in serious losses in population and economic activity. The culmination was the capture and sack of the city by the Persians (540). Antioch continued to exist until it was taken by the Persians (611) and the Arabs (638), but it never recovered its ancient greatness.” In addition to this, the Monothelite heresy turned some of the Orthodox to its side.

            Life to the Orthodox was restored temporarily by Nicephoras Phocas, who conquered part of Syria in 969. But this did not last long. The Crusades, by the excuse of saving the Holy Lands from the Moslems, established colonies in the Middle East and drove away the Greek Patriarchs from their territories. Latin Patriarchs were installed in their place. When the Moslems returned to power in 1269, the Orthodox patriarch was re-instated as head of his Church but he could not return to Antioch. In the 16th century, Damascus became the Patriarchal See.

            The transfer of the Patriarchate from Antioch to Damascus symbolized that this Patriarchate would henceforth accept the destiny of the Arabs. By this act the Church severed itself from the specifically Syriac heritage, jealously preserved by the Jacobites. In effect, from the 12th century onwards, Arabic became the liturgical language. The Orthodox Church of Armenian or Greek descent were the first to adopt Arabic in the Divine Office while Syriac culture became heretical. The Orthodox of Syria have abandoned the whole of the tradition of the Syriac East and have become purely and simply Byzantine in their Arabic worship.

            In the 16th and 17th centuries, the See of Antioch was occupied by Patriarchs of Arabic origin. In 1727, the seat was reserved to the Greeks. These were sent by the Phanar, the See of Constantinople. The Sultan gave the Patriarch of Constantinople the privilege of administering the affairs of all the Patriarchates of the East which fell under the yoke of the Ottoman Empire.

            Beginning in 1850, Greek prelates were coming from Jerusalem. They were members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre. The Arabs of Syria tried to elect one of their nationality with the help of Russia in 1885 after the death of the Greek Patriarch Hierotheus. Their endeavors failed due to the heavy opposition of the Brotherhood.

            At the end of September, 1891, Spyridon replaced Gerasimos who left to take the place of Nicodemus as the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Spyridon was a Cypriote, and a member of the Brotherhood. Since his arrival, he appointed Greek bishops on certain vacant sees and tried to subjugate the See of Antioch to Constantinople. Spyridon, by his action, added to the anger of the Arabs and they insisted on his deposition. Finally, he resigned on the 31st of January, 1898. Germanus, Metropolitan of Tarsus and Adana was elected to be the patriarchal vicar. This election was doomed to be short. On May 12, 1898, Meletius Doumani, Metropolitan of Lataquia, was elected to be the patriarchal vicar. His election was not accepted by the Ottoman Government until February 23, 1899.

            At the beginning of 1899, Meletius was elected by seven Metropolitans to the Patriarchate of Antioch. This was rejected by the Government and by the three ancient Patriarchates of the East. When his name was proclaimed for the second time, the Phanar insisted on its previous stand, acclaiming the election as uncanonical since some bishops were not convoked. The Ottoman Government accepted the election ( as a result of pressure enforced by Russia) and declared it by a berat of investiture.

            During the patriarchate of Meletius, no Greek bishops were on his synod. From that time on, the Arabic element was the only one in the clergy. He opened a school at Balamand Monastery to educate his clergy in Orthodox beliefs.

            The Patriarch of Antioch today, Theodosius VI, is the fourth member of the indigenous Patriarchs. His predecessors, other than Meletius, were Gregory IV and Alexander III, both former metropolitans of Tripoli.

            Two movements should be mentioned in the history of the Patriarchate of Antioch. The first is the Antiochene School, which was the rival of the School of Alexandria in the first centuries of Christianity. The former was known for its literal and scientific exegesis of the Holy Bible. One of its most prominent figures was St. John Chrysostom, who was an eloquent and fiery preacher called “The Golden-mouth,” and the Editor of the ancient liturgy now still used in the Church. The School of Alexandria was known for its allegorical or symbolical interpretation. Its most distinguished figure is Origen.

            The other movement to be noted, which awakened Antioch from its slumber, is The Orthodox Youth Movement. This movement was born in 1942. “It was founded by two young men who had just begun to study at the faculty of Law in Beyrouth. Their most fervent desire was to call down upon the desiccated body of the Church of their country the breath of the life-giving Spirit. That which they had the most at heart was to be able to receive anew the Word of God, which had fallen silent. To this end they sought the education of their clergy, practically non-existent, and longed that they should become open to the idea of frequent communion. For the first time there dawned a vision of renewal of compelling luminosity. For these young people, the sources of this new life were the Bible and the Eucharist. Their intense thirst for the Word of God led them to base their lives upon the New Testament and to struggle for weekly communion. The Scriptures were there to communicate to them a living Christianity and to unite them to a forgotten past. They only had to read the Book of Acts and the Epistles to perceive the beauty of the Church willed by Christ and to understand that this church was indeed Orthodoxy. The starting point of their struggle was precisely this conviction that the spiritual and dogmatic tradition of Orthodoxy was the only possible response to the anguish they experienced in face of the historic Church of this country.”

            This movement was officially recognized by the Holy Synod on August 23, 1945 under the Patriarchate of Alexander III. Today this movement has spread throughout the territory of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Its influence on the life of the Church is quite evident. Of its members, many entered the monastic life, others the sanctuary, and some became members of the Holy Synod.

            If the Patriarchate of the East could become aware again of its great mission and would allow itself to launch out in freedom and in great docility to the Spirit, original forces of an extraordinary vitality would awaken in this land where the disciples were first called Christians, a land which gave birth to such a glorious cloud of witnesses as Ignatius, Chrysostom, Romanus the Singer, Andrew of Crete and John of Damascus.

          • Woody

            This is a nice history and I will keep it; I disagreed with
            only a few parts — the part about Peter and Paul over “circumcism,” where it
            happened at the First Council of the Church which took place at the Council of
            Jerusalem-not Antioch.

            Most of this is Catholic teaching; but it looks like you must
            not have read St Ignatius’ 7 letters for surely, you would have seen his being
            the first to use the term “Catholic.”

            Also, the Ignatius you mentioned does not seem to be the
            Ignatius Of Antioch we know; since you say this dude went through 112 AD –
            Ignatius was on his way to execution in that 107 AD journey and I do not think the Romans would have kept him another 5 years before executing him?

            But first history synopsis. It’s hard to believe you are the same woman on Walids’ site that has fallen into so many errors. The other thing which is odd is that you have returned to believing that Jesus did found His Church [still
            thinking it is a “denomination” which is impossible defintion-wise since to be a “denomination” it would need to be 2
            or more (which is the very essence of using that term); and as we all Know—Jesus only founded One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but I am curious that, even though the first 32 Bishops of Rome were martyred for the Faith beginning with St Peter, you managed to overlook
            that; and that all of the Councils you mentioned were Catholic Church, and you do not mention Constantine who, in calling the Council together, urged the Bishops to in essence “decide which books belong in the NT and which do not, before the formation of the NT was published.”

            Nevertheless you are getting there.

            Oh, the other thing is I was surprised that you know of all
            these Catholic saints? E.g., Golden Mouth, etc.

            God Bless, and good hunting

          • Cynthia Banks

            The reason I do not mention Constantine, is because he did too many unscriptural things. He did not enlighten, did not follow the teachings to repent and be baptized until the end of his life. He was baptizing troops in the name of the Lord. Baptism was always preceded by repentance, that did not happened for those soldiers, they just got wet, without a knowledge or relationship with Christ. He may have asked the bishops to chose the books the canonize…. which was a good thing, but it was later in his life when reality hit him. IMHO He adds nothing to the story. And as to who I know of early church fathers we aren’t all dufus LOL…. but even then I am not as read up as you because it was not as important to me as my walk, with the Lord.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Can you provide the historical proof that only “believers” were baptized. The Bible mentions 3 or 4 cases where the entire household was baptized. Peter declared “this promise is to your and to your children, and to those afar off.” A good study of covenants is needed, because it is crucial. God wants all His children to be in His covenant. The 8 day old boy had no ‘belief’, but, according to God’s design, He wished them to be brought them into the covenant with Him. We are to stand in the gap for our children. If you will read the history of baptism, the early believers baptized their babies. In the first days of the church, if you went to go to a Jew and successfully convinced them that Jesus was indeed their long waited messiah, and that He brought a new and better covenant, they would have asked how they enter into the covenant. If you told that Jewish parent that their children were not allowed into the covenant, they would have scoffed at you and walked away. Thanks, but no thanks, my covenant is better because it allows my children to be brought into it.

          • shoebat

            Now your talking Cynthia. See when you bring quotes how jubilant Bruce Lee and Bruce Lea are? He says “This is nice history”. We are getting somewhere. Think of the two as your strict History schoolteachers. Trust me, keep going, we will all learn something,

          • Cynthia Banks

            Thanks Walid, I would like to see it go the other way too. For me the movement of 1942 is after my own heart. A desire and hunger for the body of Christ ministering to one another as in the book of Acts. Jesus touched me in mighty way in 1983, he was preparing me for my husbands paralysis, and subsequent death five and half years later. But I was given a vision of Norm’s shooting if full detail, with a word at the end. Fear not all things work to good to those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. Norm was an atheist. But October 1st 1983 he gave his life to the Lord and was baptized in a Holiness Pentecostal Church. And two months to day later he was shot. Praise Jesus he had prepared a way for us… and until Norm’s death he was quite a testimony to LAPD. My heart broke that it wasn’t my Fathers will to heal Norm, but rather take him home. But in hind sight he couldn’t have used me if I was continuing to serve Norm. His work was completed and mine was just starting. I am the body of Christ wakes up to the huge need for a move of his Spirit now…….. We are running out of time……

          • shoebat

            Perhaps some day I might challenge you for the golden belt 🙂

        • shoebat

          Cynthia, greetings to you. You stated correctly “The Muslims have been persecuting and killing Christians”, but incorrectly added “for almost 2000 years”

          Islam wasn’t even here for 2000 years. Also, Islam persecuted Catholics for fourteen centuries. As much as I hate it, they also collaborated with Protestants to kill Catholics at Vienna. This is unfortunate. The question is, why can we all learn from such history as to the necessity of us all uniting (while we can still argue with each other) as we are doing here. I think that there is a misunderstanding here. One example, Julie asked you, since we justify Israel fighting in the Six Day War, she was kind of asking you, why not also justify Catholics who fought Islam during the Crusades and the Catholic Alliance. She wanted you to see that there were mistakes done. I am sure that Julie can confess a multitude of mistakes done by Catholics, my question is, what are the mistakes done by Protestants against the Catholics. I would love to see the spirit of reconciliation. However, this does not mean we undermine Scripture, Truth and the facts of history. With love, Walid Shoebat.

          • Woody

            And no one on this topic now has mentioned the excellent article on the Battle of Lepanto whereby Our Lady turned back the Turks went her Rosary was said and the vastly undermanned Christian Armada was soon to be the victor – since as the Rosary was going on–the ships of the enemy became becalmed and thus could not escape and thus Western Civ was saved.
            Thank Jesus once again for your Ma.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Walid I know when Mohammed declared his faith…it was an exaggeration. It was 632 CE. But they are the same people who were always warring with the Apple of God’s eye. And I am well aware that the Catholics were percuted by Islam for 1400 years. If you have read my posts you know I have agreed with you on that point. You also know I believe that Catholics are believers.
            Now as to Julie’s question, I never said one word about Catholics warring with Islam. I had no problem with the Catholics defending themselves. No where do you see me speak against that. Her point is mute and she is just seeking an argument. The Six Day War, was a war of self defense, just as the Wars with Islam were. It’s a brainer. Please show me what comment I made that said I was against war. My late husband served two tours in Vietnam, was shot and paralyzed in 1983 and died in 1989. Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his brother.
            So now Walid you want to change the subject to wrongs done by Protestants against the Catholic Church. You are making my point exactly. I have agreed with your points. The Protestant may have exaggerated history, but please lets compare bad history, with the horrors of Islam. If you would like to list the murderous actions of the Protestants, like burning people at the stake, I say they were not Christians… No Christian can act in such a manner. Jesus said,many come in my name get out from among them. He also said depart from me you workers of inequity, I knew you not. The Word of God is sufficient for me. Paul, said I have come to know Christ Jesus, and him only. In other words, lets quit boasting our scholarship, and share Christ, manifest Christ. If all remained faithful to word, all that is false in any church would be exposed. But it requires eating ones own pride. As I have studied and grown in the last thirty-five years, I found there were things that were taught in my churches that were totally false. We need to take responsibility for all false teaching and set it straight. Straight is the road and narrow is the path, that leads to eternal life and few there are that find it…..
            I do love your teachings Walid, Keith Davies will tell you , I buy and share your books and videos and pray for your ministry. I agree we need reconciliation, but that comes from a repentant heart, moving in the fruits of the Spirit.

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, your post here is fair and kind. Glad that you shared about your husband’s service. I simply wanted to interject in this dialogue and ask everyone to have a little patience and lets all add kindness in our words. This included myself.

          • Cynthia Banks

            Thanks Walid, how funny I just said to Woody, have patience I love my neighbor…. Now we are being rooted and grounded in love…..

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Do you cherry-pick which piece history you cling to, while ignoring the rest? Do yourself a favor and read of the slaughters done in the name of Protestantism by Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth among others. Do you condemn the Israelites? They slaughtered people. God told them to. So, go study your “pristine” protestant roots, and then ask yourself the question “what is the answer to a false church that leads so many to deaths”?

      • Cynthia Banks

        Julie, you don’t need to be arrogant or cocky to make your point. Walid has done a good job of who murdered and persecuted more. Of course it was Islam. However, that does not let the Catholic church off the hook. The early church was hiding in caves, not in plain sight. Meeting in secret…. I have Catholic Friends I love very much, that doesn’t negate the errors taught there. I am Pentecostal, I pray and I study… I love the Lord and his word…. And I love all those who are seeking him in Spirit and in Truth. Head knowledge gets us no one where, but tearing each other apart and that is a lousy testimony. Heart knowledge means everything, being of one mind, one Spirit, speaking the word in one accord. And where we have error we immediately admit and get the false teachings out our churches…. That is all churches, not Catholics or protestants, or Pentecostals. We need to search out hearts. I have had to readjust as I grew in the Lord over my sixty-five years, we all have error and when we don’t admit it, we have given way to pride…. who does that serve?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Can you tell us the beliefs and practices of these early Christians that hid in caves (catacombs?) Please enumerate the “errors” taught.

          • Cynthia Banks

            There were caves near Jericho in the Jordan Valley, with ‘Crucifixs all over them. There was aIso, a very large on in Jerusalem. It has been probably thirty years since I studied this, so I can not give great detail. I was not there I cannot tell you what they were teaching, there were also caves in Germany. They were fleeing persecution. Why do ask?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The question I asked is “Can you tell us the beliefs and practices of the early Christians who hid…” Then I asked you to specify what “errors” are taught. You imply errors, you should disclose them. In other words, instead of a vague, blanket accusation, could you give the specifics.

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, I wrote an article about Icons which I got a ton of flack over it. Julie is trying to tell you that the practices of the first church was Catholic. The Cross is an Icon, so I wasn’t sure why everyone got upset. But Cynthia, did you ever look into the Shroud of Turin? Jesus chose to make an Icon of Himself. Would love to know your thoughts.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You admit that the early believers had crucifixes all over the caves without condemnation, but in another post you expressed that it was terrible that anyone would wear an “object of suffering’. Your hypocrisy is insurmountable.

          • Mark Roberts

            One glaring error of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, is that they teach that the law of Mosheh has been nailed to the cross and that we no longer have to keep it. Yahushua made it clear that we do have to keep the law of Mosheh. In Mattithyahu (aka Matthew) 5 :17-19, Yahushua says, ““Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.” These words of Yahushua indicate that most of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, is apostate and heretical. Another glaring error is the removal of the name of Yahuweh from scriptures – both Catholic and Protestant. Yahuweh said ,”You do not bring the Name of Yahuweh your Elohim to naught, for Yahuweh does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught.” Shemoth (aka Exodus) 20:7

            I saw a Catholic web site a few years ago that stated that using the Name of Yahuweh in masses was banned. This means the Name of Yahuweh has been banished from both Catholic scriptures and worship services. This is apostasy.

          • shoebat

            Mark, you stated “One glaring error of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant …”

            Are you not Protestant?

            I would expect you to say “no” I am Messianic.

            But this is still a Protestant denomination.

            Do you believe in Faith alone?
            Do you believe in Scripture alone?

            If so, you are Protestant.

            Also, and perhaps you might enlighten us since you are well aware of Protestant and Catholic errors, can you tell us what are the errors of the Messianics?I just found your Hebrew in error in the pronunciation, its not Yahuweh but Yahweh and its not Yahushua but Yashwa.

            Now watch how we will end up in an argument on how we correctly pronounce the name of God and Jesus. And watch how we will end up in an endless senseless debate.

            Now you know what is the err of certain Messianic who focus on the letters?

            There is more important apostasy than to focus on spelling and pronunciations . That website represents itself and not all Catholics, just as you do not represent all Messianics. Neither Catholic or Protestant reject the use of Yahweh or Yashwa. So lets look at bigger fish to fry, like SLANDER. How can we point to the slander of history. I have Cynthia here who seems like a genuine person and two Catholic Bruce Lees. Care to join in the discussion? In other words, we prefer shooting with a 12 gauge instead of bee bee guns.

          • Mark Roberts

            Walid,

            You seem to want to pigeon hole me as a Protestant.
            I am not a Protestant Christian. I am a Nazarene. (Acts 24:5)
            Nazarenes were around before the formation of the Roman Catholic Church, so we can’t be labelled “Protestants”.
            I do not believe in faith alone. I believe I need Yahuweh, Yahushua, and Yahuweh’s Spirit. I believe one must also keep Torah, not to be saved, but out of obedience. Faith without obedience is lawlessness and Yahushua said He would say “Depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness”. I do not believe in Scripture alone. I believe one needs Yahuweh, Yahushua and Yahuweh’s Spirit also.

            You said “I just found your Hebrew in error in the pronunciation, its not Yahuweh but Yahweh and its not Yahushua but Yashwa.” I actually didn’t give the pronunciation. Yahuweh is pronounced Yah-oo-ay. There is no “w” sound in Hebrew. People that write His Name Yahweh tend to pronounce it Yah-way so to make it clearer some of us put a “u” in the English transliteration. You are incorrect about Yahushua being incorrect. Zekaryah prophesied the Messiah’s name in Zekaryah 6:11-12. In Hebrew His name is Yod Heh Uau Shin Ayin. The name Yashwa, while close, leaves out the Heh and Uau which give us the first “h” and “u”. The name of Yahushua son of Nun is the same name as the Messiah’s. In two places it is written in the long form – Yod Heh Uau Shin Uau Ayin. The last Uau gives the second “u” in Yahushua. If you write the last Uau as a “w” as in Yashwa you will get people pronouncing it incorrectly as an English “w”. I hope that clears it up. I certainly won’t be engaging in an endless debate about this.
            You said, “There is more important apostasy than to focus on spelling and pronunciations”. I agree, so why did you ignore the main point of my post which was to point out an obvious apostasy in Christianity? Instead you want me to point out the errors of the Messianics. I haven’t had a lot of contact with folks who call themselves Messianics, so I’ll make a few comments about those who are trying to be Torah observant. Some believers reckon a new month starts on the dark moon and calculate the dates of the festivals from the dark moon. They should be calculating the dates from the first sliver of the new moon. This means they are keeping the wrong days. Many believers follow the Yahudim (aka Jewish) tradition of observing the Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening. However, Genesis 1 reckons a day to be morning to morning, so a minority of us keep the Sabbath Saturday morning to Sunday morning. Some believers start the new year on the day after the Northern Hemisphere spring equinox because they follow the calendar in the book of Enoch. This is not in the Torah and goes against what Torah says. As a result, they also have incorrect feast days.
            Many believers call Yahushua “Yeshua”, and some “Yehoshua”.
            These are some of the issues I’ve

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Can you properly spell Mary’s name and give its Hebrew roots?

          • shoebat

            When you meet Jesus, would you tell Him to let you into His kingdom because you pronounced “Yehoshua” or because you “obeyed His commandments”? Or should He let you in because you learned that the word Jews in Hebrew is Yehudim? How many Hebrew words do you know? And why did God choose to have the N.T in Greek? And how can you provide us with your Nazerine church succession? Where they stickler about pronouncing Jesus as Yehoshua? Can you provide us with historic evidence to this? Make your case.

          • Mark Roberts

            Walid,

            You seem to not know the way into the kingdom of Heaven and you didn’t read my post very well either. I call the Messiah Yahushua and not Yehoshua. The way into the kingdom of Heaven is to have your transgressions forgiven by Yahuweh by acknowledging that Yahushua died for our transgressions and rose again. We must repent from our transgressions which is defined in scripture as breaking the law of Mosheh. To continue breaking the law of Mosheh by disregarding it is willful transgression. Ibrim (aka Hebrews) 10:26-31 says “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you
            think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour?
            For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says Yahuweh.” And again, “Yahuweh shall judge His
            people.” It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim. ”

            I believe that the N.T. was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek. The reason I believe this is because scholars have said that the koine Greek of the N.T. is grammatically bad Greek. I think Shaul (aka Paul) was a good scholar and didn’t write poor Greek. There were Yahudim in all the main cities of Turkey, Greece and Rome. I believe that Shaul wrote to Yahudim, in Hebrew, who then translated into Greek. We will probably only know the truth when Yahushua returns.

            As far as “Nazarene church succession” goes, I take this to mean who has been the head of the assembly. The answer to that is Yahushua. The apostle Paul said, “For other foundation no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Messiah Yahushua.” (1 Cor. 3:11) Col. 1:18, speaking of Messiah, says, “And he is the head of the body,
            the assembly, who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy…” Yahushua said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18
            Eph. 5:23-25 shows that Messiah is the only head of the assembly. Yahushua said “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”
            (Yohanan aka John 10:11, 14-16).
            Messiah is always said to be the head of the assembly.
            1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:15-16

            “Now there arose a dispute among them, which of them was reputed to be the greatest. But he said to them, ‘The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and they who exercise authority over them are called Benefactors. But not so
            with you. On the contrary, let him who is greatest among you become as the youngest, and him who is chief as the servant.'” (Luke 22:24-26).
            Peter definitely wasn’t given primacy over the other apostles to settle the dispute.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Who stood up at the Day of Pentecost, full of the Holy Spirit-Peter. Who stood up at the council of Jerusalem to make known that gentiles do not have to be circumcised -Peter. Who walked on water -Peter. Who did the tax collector approach for payment of the temple tax for Jesus -Peter. Who was given the keys-Peter. Who was the first in the empty tomb-Peter. Who’s boat did Jesus get into-Peter. Who did God give the revelation as to who His son was-Peter. Which Apostle worked the first miracle-Peter. Whose feet did Ananias & Sapphira fall dead at-Peter. Who initiated the successor to Judas-Peter. Who enters the upper room first after the ascension-Peter. Who raises someone from the dead-Peter. Whose shadow had power to heal-Peter. Whose death did Jesus prophesy of-Peter. In Gethsemane, who was the one asked why he was sleeping-Peter. Who brought in the net with 153 fish-Peter. Who received a name change from Jesus-Peter. Who was told to tend and feed His sheep-Peter.
            Entrance into the Kingdom, the covenant, per Jesus “unless a man is born of water and spirit he will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”

          • Mark Roberts

            You said, “Who stood up at the council of Jerusalem to make known that gentiles do not have to be circumcised -Peter.”. I don’t find this anywhere in the scriptures. What is your source? Yahuweh commands us to keep Passover and He says no uncircumcised shall eat of it (Shemoth aka Exodus 12:48). It is therefore necessary to be circumcised in order to be obedient to Yahuweh. What the apostles were contending against was people who were saying you need to be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15:1. The council of Jerusalem gave four instructions from Torah that the gentiles had to comply with straight away. Acts 15:21 says that Mosheh was read in the congregations every Sabbath in every city. Clearly, the early believers were taught to follow the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh. These were the only scriptures they had in their times.

            Kepha (aka Peter) was a prominent apostle, as you pointed out. However he wasn’t the preeminent apostle. No one had preeminence amongst the apostles. In Luke 22:24-26, Yahushua said “but not so among you”. Yahushua is the head of the assembly of Yahuweh. There is no head besides Him.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Acts 15:5 “is it necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic Law?’… after much debate Peter got up and said to them “My brothers, you are will aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through MY MOUTH the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. Why are you putting God to the test by placing on them a yoke that neither our ancestors or we have been able to bear?…The whole assembly fell silent… then James tell that the words of the prophets agree with what has been spoken. Who did Jesus give the Keys to? “For Moses, FOR GENERATIONS NOW, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” This sentence is in past tense, and is speaking of Moses.
            Who did Jesus make shepherd of the flock?-(I’m assuming you know what tend and feed mean).
            Who was given Keys?
            Who else did Jesus have find a coin to pay the temple tax?
            You can skirt the obvious all you want, it will not change God’s plan. Peter clearly stated that He was picked by God long ago for his role. Jesus is the Head, indeed, Peter is his representative on earth.’
            We keep the “new” Passover, in Jesus’ flesh and blood, every Mass. We eat the flesh of the Lamb just like the old. And no one “uncircumcised” i.e., unbaptized, can eat of it.

          • Mark Roberts

            If you interpret Kepha’s (aka Peter) words to be that he was saying gentiles don’t need to be circumcised then you are effectively saying that Kepha was least in the kingdom of Heaven. (Matt. 5:17-19) That would make him unsuitable to be pope as he would be going against what Yahushua said!!! Yaakov (aka James) brought the Jerusalem Council to insist that gentile believers keep 4 instructions from Torah as a starting point and since they would be reading Torah in the assemblies they would then be expected to learn the rest.

            Yahushua said “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” (Yohanan aka John 10:11, 14-16). One shepherd. That’s Yahushua!!! You seem to be rejecting Yahushua’s words in Luke 22:24-26.

            There is no “new” Passover. Yahuweh commanded Passover to be kept on the 14th Abib every year and not every Mass. I think you are adding to the Word which Yahuweh commanded. We are not to do this – Debarim (Deuteronomy) 4:2. You also equate circumcision with baptism. The two are completely different things! You are following a man-made doctrine. The New Covenant is that Yahuweh would write His Torah on our inward parts and hearts. Yirmeyahu (aka Jeremiah) 31:31-36. Same Torah He gave Mosheh and the Torah will be global during Yahushua’s millenial reign. We must therefore learn and obey Torah. How can you make true disciples of people if you don’t keep Torah? Are you content with being least in the Kingdom of Heaven? (Matt. 5:17-19) Are you content with being under a priesthood that forbids to marry, which Timothy describes as a teaching of demons? (1 Tim. 4:1-3)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Baptism is new circumcision:
            per Exekiel 36:25 “I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean.” (His prophecy of the New Covenant.)
            per Paul Col 2:11-15 “In Him were your circumcised with a circumcision made with out hands, by putting off the body of flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in BAPTISM”
            per Paul Romans 6:3 “we who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death. We are indeed buried with Him through baptism”
            per Jesus, John 3:5 “no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water & spirit”. Jesus had just been baptized in the Jordan & the spirit appeared over him.
            per Peter 1 Peter 3:20-22 (Noah’s ark) “and a few persons, 8 in all, were save through water. This prefigured baptism, which now saves you.”
            per Peter Acts 2:38 “Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins…”
            New Passover
            per Jesus Mark 14:23-24 Then He took a cup, gave thanks, & gave it to them and they drank from it. He said to them ‘this is MY BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, which will be shed for many…”
            per Jesus Luke 22:15 “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you…I shall not eat it again until there is fulfillment in the Kingdom of God. then he took a cup…”
            per Jesus Matt 26:27 “The he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you, for this is MY BLOOD OF THE COVENANT'”.
            per Paul 1 Cor 11:25 “this cup is the NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me”
            Can you see that the New covenant is a cup of His blood? He is the ultimate Passover lamb. He told us do repeat what those present did in the upper room, just like the Israelites repeated the old Passover.
            Celibacy
            Per Jesus Matt 19:12 “…some, because they have RENOUNCED MARRIAGE for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever can accept this OUGHT to accept it.
            Per Paul 1 Cor 7:32-34 “An UNMARRIED is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man in anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife and his is DIVIDED.
            Per Revelation 14:4 “These are they who were not defiled with women, they are VIRGINS, & they are they who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” ( Do you see here that Jesus is the Lamb?)
            I am amazed that you quote verses before looking at the entirety of the Bible, that, is why there is so much false belief today. I feel that an OT verse is in order “For I am doing a work in your day, a work that you will NEVER believe in even if someone tells him” We have a New Covenant, it is the blood of Jesus, the Lamb that all those slaughtered from Moses till 33 AD pointed to. You need to BELIEVE & be baptized into the New Covenant.

          • Mark Roberts

            I have fed and tended sheep. It didn’t make me the shepherd. A shepherd is defined as someone who is employed to tend sheep. Tend is defined as to take care of, or look after. There is nothing in these definitions that
            could be construed to mean Kepha was given a role as head of the assembly. Yes, Kepha was given the keys to the kingdom in Mattithyahu 16:19. Yahushua gave the same authority to all his disciples in Mattithyahu 18:18 “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be having been bound in heaven, and whatever you loosen on earth shall be having been loosened in heaven.”
            Yahushua didn’t stop with the 12 disciples. He appointed 70 others and they also had authority over demons and healed the sick. You seem not to get Luke 22:24-26. Try reading Mattithyahu 20:20-28 and Mark 10:35-45. It’s in
            scripture three times. Kepha was NOT given preeminence. Yahushua is the head of the assembly of Yahuweh and no man is to be considered our leader. Yahushua made it clear not to call anyone rabbi, father, or leader as only Messiah is our teacher and leader and only Yahuweh is our father. (Mattithyahu 23:8-10)

            You are way off course with your teaching that Isaiah 22 refers to Kepha. Elyaqim son of Hilqiyahu was given the role of steward over the house. (verse 20)

            You quoted Yehezqel (aka Ezekiel) 36:25. If you read on you will see in verse 27 “and put My Spirit within you. And I shall cause you to walk in my laws and guard my right-rulings and shall do them.” Circumcision (the snip snip kind) is one of Yahuweh’s laws. It is not replaced by baptism. Col 2:11-12 is referring to circumcision of the heart. Circumcision of the heart results in the guarding of His commands.

            For those of us who believe in Messiah Yahushua, Passover is a double remembrance. Remembrance of the first Passover when the Israelites left Egypt and now remembrance of Yahushua as the Passover lamb who takes away our transgressions. We remember the sufferings of our forefathers who were slaves in Egypt and we remember the sufferings of our Messiah who died for our
            transgressions. It is one and the same Passover remembrance. There is no new Passover called Mass. Yahuweh commanded Passover to be kept as a law forever.
            (Shemoth aka Exodus 12:24) We will still be keeping Passover when Yahushua returns to reign because Yahuweh’s Torah will remain in force until heaven and
            earth passes away. Get with the program Julie!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            In addition to my 1st reply to you, in John 21, Jesus gives Peter the role of shepherd “Feed my lambs” “Tend my sheep” “Feed my sheep”. Do you know what a shepherd does? He watches over, leads and guides sheep, keeps them in the sheepfold. I can’t help you if you can’t see this. I can’t help that you refuse to see that Peter is the new Royal Steward, the father over the house, who had the keys on His shoulder, as prophesied in Isaiah 22. In case you didn’t know, one of the titles of the Pope is “Servant of the Servants of God”, exactly what Jesus declared the leader to be.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            My Okie accent would leave me out. Isn’t there a scripture somewhere that says God will purify the languages at the end of time?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It has been banished form the scriptures? Can you prove this? Our bibles, unlike some, have not changed. Why would you, obviously hostile to Catholics, be on a random unnamed Catholic website- that’s suspect for credibility for your claim.
            In our mass, God the Father is so addressed according to the prescription Jesus left us “Our Father”, “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit”. Every mass we sing the “Hallejah”- is His name not in this hymn of praise? Do you think that God ignores the cries from a poor soul because he doesn’t know the right name to call Him? Our God is not a cruel God.

        • shoebat

          Cynthia, There is an abundance of evidence that the early Christians during Acts did make use of icons along with statues and decorated liturgical elements, such as chalices with the image of Christ engraved upon them. A simple crawl through the Roman catacombs or the remains of Dura Europos (Syria) and even in Megiddo in Israel (the oldest church) would provide a pointed demonstration.

        • Woody

          The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis is a book written by American historian and Rabbi David G. Dalin and published in 2005 by Regnery Publishing.

          • shoebat

            The best I read on this issue was “Three Popes and The Jews”. It was written by an Israeli Ambassador named Pinchas Lapide. I nearly lost my most major funder over supporting Pius XII. We are in constant wars over the issues we defend. It seems that we can never please everyone and at times anyone.

          • Woody

            That’s why the Truth matters; so you know how the Hahn’s felt when they left Protestantism for the Truth…it started when neither he nor his fellow fellow Minsters could find Sola Scriptura in the Bible? But any “google” quickly brings up the proof that it is a lie:

            (Rabbi) Dalin first presents evidence to support his conclusion that popes through history have defended the Jews, and that they have refuted attacks like the blood libel.

            Then he gets to the main part of the book: defending the reputation of the late Pope Pius XII by presenting extensive documentation culled from Church and State archives throughout Europe.

            Rabbi Dalin suggests that Yad Vashem should honor Pope Pius XII as a “Righteous Gentile”, and documents that Pius was praised by many leading Jews of his day for his role in saving more Jews than Schindler. Pius’s admirers included Chief Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog of the Palestinian Mandate and Israel, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Israel’s first president Chaim Weizmann. CANT GET ANY HIGHER THAN THESE PEOPLE WHO PRAISE PIUS XII.

            Dalin also presents Albert Einstein as one of the Jews who supposedly praised Pius XII, writing that Einstein “paid tribute to the ‘courage’ of Pope Pius and the Catholic Church”.

            And you also have an excellent movie from the atheistic Hollywood Crowd which is mostly Jewish–“The Red and the Black,” with Gregory Peck.
            But I know you agree with me that it is the Truth which Jesus wants so you will do very well, like the Hahn’s did.

            Keep up the great work..
            God Bless

  • Could it be that the gulf between Rome and those that broke away from Rome in the last 5 centuries, is bigger than what separates the Eastern Orthodox Church from the Oriental Orthodox Churches which had problems of how doctrines about Christ were communicated.

  • sumsrent

    I couldn’t imagine trying to study up and put together an article like this… following the trail of someone’s quote taken from a second person which was taken from third person.

  • Stephen Dalton

    As a Catholic, I say congratulations for seeing through the heretics as martyrs lie that so many bigoted Protestants believe in. I was taught these lies 40 years ago as a member of an Anti-Catholic Cult. But where did these lies and heresies originally come from? Read Rabbi Louis I Newman’s “Jewish Influence On Christian Reform Movements” and find out the truth.

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  • Cynthia Banks

    Thanks Walid! So glad I found you four years ago. Such a blessing

    • Woody

      Where did you find him as was he in good shape?

  • jmstalk

    Mr. Shoebat,

    I want to respond to this quote from the article above:

    “My dream is that Catholics could be as zealous to learn the Bible…”

    I am a lifelong Catholic who is involved in a movement within the Catholic Church called the Neo-Catechumenal Way. The name was given to our group by Blessed Pope John Paul II when he saw that we are essentially walking the way of a catechumen in the early Church, a time when candidates were not baptized until they had demonstrated their faith by the way they lived their lives. The ‘Way’ as we call it, is an itinerary of adult formation that helps post-baptismal Catholic adults understand and live their baptismal promises in the same manner of those early Christians did before they even received Baptism.

    The Way is founded on three legs where Christ is present: the Bible, the Eucharist, and the community. So we begin this itinerary by attending a catechesis that puts the Old Testament events into the context of our own lives. Following this 8-10 week catechesis, we join others in attendance to a weekend retreat where we receive more in-depth biblical instruction and receive an invitation to continue walking with the small community formed during this catechetical period. From this point, we continue on a lifelong journey framed by these 3 legs (Scripture, Eucharist, Community). Other communities can form in the same parish when new catechesis are presented, but each community that is subsequently formed stays together, interacting with the other communities only at the Eucharist Masses and periodic retreats (called convivences). The reason is that this journey digs deep into our past lives, our present situations and reforms us to be capable of living as a truly “adult Christian” (i.e. a selfless person who is capable of loving in the dimension of the Cross). This is a lifelong journey.

    So there you have it. There are millions of Catholics in this movement alone who are using Scripture daily as a guide for their lives. This is only one of many movements and/or educational programs based on Scripture.

    So, how has this ‘walk’ with my community helped me? It has taught me what it is to forgive the enemy, to love the other, to live in simplicity and joy and adoration of God. It saved me because I was on a path of isolation (hiding in the back pew of the Church alone). It taught me how to respond to crisis, to love even my enemies, and to put the other person before myself.

    I will add another comment on your article after this one on other subjects.

    • Woody

      This is interesting; yes, I think the Protestants coming in are bringing a wealth of Biblical knowledge. My only logical errors I see is that, while the Bible is inerrant, the problem is that people believe their “interpretations” are inerrant and nothing says that, in fact St Paul said to Timothy “listen to the Church.” and that is why there may be a laziness from personal Scripture readings (I love the Psalms); Elizabeth Hahn “snuck” into a Catholic Mass one day while she was still Protestant and said, She was amazed at all the Scripture that is read at every Mass (usually 2 Readings and then a Gospel passage, and then the sermon-comments of the passage) and,of course we have Mass daily. As a priest once told me …if a Catholic attends Mass every Sunday like he should he will have gone through the Bible 87% of it every 3 years; so, we are not exactly devoid of Scripture knowledge. I have not heard of the Neo-Catechumenal Way, and it is neat that it is a return to the original name of Jesus’ Church–the People of the Way,”until St. Ignatius of Antioch commented with the term “Catholic” in 107 AD on his way to Rome to become “lion food,” where he became a martyr for Jesus. Thus the name stuck ever since. In the past 4 years i have been attending the “Charismatic” arm of the Catholic Church and having really enjoyed it; they are such a nice Christian group At first it was scary because I am not used to hearing “Tongues” spoken, and the other odd happenings when the HS is truly present…like a beautiful choir in my head, but when I turned to view them–no one was there, but voices went right on singing in my head so that i got the chills.

      Interesting when I read up on its history it only goes back to 1968; but it came out of a Protestant Movement known as “Pentecostals” but then the brochure said-it was denounced by the main stream Protestant churches and dwindled and then the Catholics took it over. They were at first looked at it as askance, but now after careful investigation as the Vatican always does–it has been accepted … wonderful.

      • Fanci McGuffin

        He is a Jew. He was celebrating Pesach. Which has 4 cups not one.
        Pesach points to Him and that is what He was telling us to do to remember Him.
        He is returning for the Jews.
        They still have a covenant with Him.
        We have not replaced the Jews as Gods people.
        Replacement theology is heresy.
        We are grafted to the tree, not the tree to us.

        • Woody

          I agree–the Jews are stlll the chosen People as God does not go back on His Promises-we came in thanks to St Paul and his “Fraternal Correction” as St Thomas Aquinas calls it. I have several Jewish friends, and several cute Protestant ones.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Thanks for reminding some of our protestant brothers that Jesus was indeed celebrating the Passover, and did so to fulfill its true meaning, and the feast continues to this very day as Paul declared “Our pascal lamb has been sacrificed therefore, let US keep the Feast! In the UPPER room, the Passover feast had progressed up to the 3rd cup,(cup of blessing or thanksgiving) they sang the hallel psalm, then Jesus interrupted the feast by going out to the garden to pray, and prayed 3 times for this CUP be taken away. He was referring to the 4th Cup which had not been drunk yet. On the way to his crucifixion, he was offered a cup of wine, He tasted it but refused to drink it. On the cross He declares “I thirst”, and a sponge with sour wine is lifted on a HYSSOP branch, and he drank it, the 4th Cup, then He declared “It is Finished” What was finished? The Passover, brought to its ultimate final fulfillment. Without His resurrection AND ascension, our promise was only partially completed on the cross. I have had many protestant friends that say the Jews are cut off, I just want to spin on my head! Thanks so much for reminding everybody of Paul’s words, because, we too can be “cut-off”.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          The 3rd cup is the cup that Jesus left for us, the “thanksgiving” cup. that was the last one he drank before exiting the upper room to head for the garden.

      • shoebat

        Woody, I know that I am probably throwing a rock in the pond and I will probably create a big splash and cause many speaking in tongues fish to be upset at me, but I never bought into the “speaking in tongues” thing.

        Tell me is this valid:

        I am just not buying into this

  • jmstalk

    Mr. Shoebat,

    Please bear with me as I comment on something else you said in your article. This is in reference to the quote:

    “to all who seek to find truth, here is how you do it: go and find what is most attacked and their you will find the truth.”

    I can’t imagine a statement more true than this statement. What you may not know or realize is that this perfectly describes the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is hated by innumerable groups and individuals throughout the world, including many Protestants who call themselves Christian. How someone can call themselves ‘Christian’ while hating another Christian is beyond me. Catholics are true Christians but are vastly misunderstood by most Protestant adherents.

    The greatest mistake I think Protestants make is that they often rely on Protestant sources to understand what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. In my online debate with some of these folks, I seldom find one that has opened the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it for themselves. This book summarizes Catholic doctrine as taught by the Church.

    But the real evidence lies in the fact that human beings are not the only ones attacking the Church. Satan is implacable against the Church, particularly against priests and religious men and women consecrated to God. These attacks come in unspeakable temptations, hate directed toward them, confusion/conflicts within parishes…an diabolical onslaught that breaks many of them. When broken, men/women commit sin. These attacks have left a wide swath of broken men and women over the centuries who have committed awful crimes and sins against the Church itself and against those who refuse to believe in the Church’s teachings. The attacks today, and the numbers of broken men/women is immeasurable. Yes Catholics sin. Yes bishops priests and religious sin. Yes. Yes. Yes. I don’t know or understand the historical context of these errors and sins within the Church. But I will say this, every human person is subject to the test, and everyone falls at one point or the other.

    So the very fact that priests have committed grave sins with minor children, or that bishops put their own positions above their fiduciary duty to protect those in their care, is really evidence that Satan has brought this confusion and weakness into the very heart of the Church itself. And while there is no way to put a good face on this scandal in the Church, it should be evident that it has driven untold millions out of, or away from the Church…achieving precisely the aims Satan intended. One wonders why.

    Could it be that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ, and His presence there on the alter waiting for aching humanity to come and drink to the dregs from His physical presence is the reason Satan wants to drive people away from the Catholic Church? I mean, after all, wouldn’t it make sense that if the Catholic Church is a pagan religion taking people away from God and the true faith, wouldn’t Satan leave them alone, make it look attractive, do everything within his power to draw people into this trap? Wouldn’t he?

    • Woody

      Now what a great insight; I have been saying for months, why is it that Protestants are the only persons who “tell others what they believe?” When I wanted to know what Methodists believe I would ask my Methodist wife; when I want to know what my Lutheran friends believe,I ask my Lutheran friends, ad infinitum? Thats’ how this “Catholics worship statues” nonsense, as this man says it is in the Catechism…”worship belongs only to God” and I have never been taught anything else…”the Church was founded by Constantine…” Nonsense he was a pagan until he converted on his deathbed…and it omits the first 32 popes who were martyred for the Faith during the Roman persecutions since Christians were underground until the 5th century…
      God Bless

    • Woody

      I think (actually know) Jesus anticipated that His Church would be hated–He knows the devil Has always been his enemy and the more He can dissuade from His Church the more He thinks He can annoy Jesus; but I can never understand why the devil thinks he can win against God; I guess the only thing that makes sense is that the more souls he steals from Jesus he has won some sort of Pyrrhic victory (sp?) [poop – could never spell this word,and to tired to look it up] victory. …couldn’t do it; had to look it up anyway..

      • And here you complain about my spelling…hypocrite!!!

        • Woody

          I still do–Pyrrhic; I have it spelled right so you still don;t know how to spell; but you can accuse me of trickery. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I bet he does!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        His church will be hated and despised as He was. He dared say He was the truth. His church dares to state the Truth, and It’s despised. Most modern day protestants have no idea how far they are from their 500 year old moorings. Luther would hang his head. He was so fearful of them having any disunity, but within 10 years the seam had already begun to unravel.

    • A comment about this comment: “to all who seek to find truth, here is how you do it: go and find what is most attacked and their you will find the truth.”
      Hmmm…by that standard of thought, A Muslim can very well solidify his/her belief in “Jihad” against Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims any time that the Islamic faith is “attacked” for the sword verses contained in its theology.
      C’mon, folks… Everyone is going to be criticized “attacked”, mocked and ridiculed for some ideological indoctrination they have been led into. So, does that mean that they have all found the “truth” in the areas where they are each most attacked? The point is, “There Is Only One Truth”. If you think you have found it, then it shouldn’t bother you what others believe whenever you are “attacked” – as long as you are sure that you REALLY have found The Truth. 🙂

      • shoebat

        The Muslim is criticized by Christians. The liberal rarely attacks the Muslim, he attacks the Christian. I think you didn’t get my point.

        • Yet, when many Christians “attack” (and they do) the liberals and atheists for their godless ideologies, couldn’t they use the same justification – that they must have the truth because their beliefs are being attacked by Christians? 🙂

      • Good point Mike..Thanks for clearing that up!!!!

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  • michelletherese

    Sun God Wafer!! I’m cracking up here!! 😀

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Wait till she reads the Old Testament about the manna! Wafers that tasted like honey!

      • Woody

        How about Oreos?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          These people just prove their ignorance. and, a part of me feels sorry for them because they don’t know what they are missing. Manna (man hu) means “what is it”, the Israelites didn’t know what is was, and unfortunately today, the same question remains “What is it”?. They don’t know, but we do. The old manna didn’t begin until after the Passover, and it lasted only as long as they were in exodus. It ended when they entered the “Promised Land”. Same for us, Jesus gave a ‘New Passover” for us, he departed, we are in our “exodus”, he gives us the true “manna from heaven” for our journey, and it will cease when Jesus returns, and we enter the “Promised Land- Heaven”, Paul references this in 1 Cor 11:26 “For as often as you eat THIS BREAD, and drink THE CUP, you proclaim the death of the Lord UNTIL HE COMES.”

      • Yes Julie and guess what else they did…Celebrated the Feast days written in Leviticus 23

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Because they were IN BONDAGE to the Law of Moses. We are under the Law of Jesus.

          • I need to get to work…so stop bugging me …certainly you can’t be serious…In Bondage to celebrate the Feast days??? I guess you will never learn the truth by throwing out these outrageous claims…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Then stop yourself, you the on pulling your chain, not me.

          • shoebat

            toucheee, take it easy albeit

          • Celebrating God’s Holy days in Leviticus 23 was not done because they were in bondage…Give me a break!!! It’s because they were let out of bondage…Is this part of your Catholic upbringing again that you claim to know so much about??? Jesus celebrated the very same holy days and do you think he was in bondage…Oh the hypocrisy of it all!!!

    • Woody

      sun God what? Julie–oh I thought it was Julie sprouting this nonsense; Of course I’m mistaken–don’t spank me Julie!

      • No but God will and severely

  • AnthonyM

    Thanks for writing another great article, Walid.
    Food for thought.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. He was in the beginning with God, and ALL THINGS came to be though HIM.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    This ‘Sun God” worship as you call it, why do you say that? Did you make it up yourself, or are you repeating old news? What do you think the manna was? Do you remember that it was “bread from heaven”? Why did they have to put an urn of the manna in the Ark? What do you think the Bread of the Presence (showbread, the Bread of the Face ) was? Why was it to be continually present before the Lord in the tabernacle, with a light on? Why did it have to be veiled when taken out of the tabernacle? Just curious.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Since you unabashedly acclaim that you do not adhere to ANY church or man-made denomination, I would like to ask you a question- What is your “doctrine”, maybe we could critique your doctrine and see what errors you have. Since you claim that “people fall farther away”, then the best thing you could do is to study the early church fathers, compare their beliefs and practices to the churches that exist today, and determine if there are any that still practice and believe like they did 1940 yrs ago. Problem solved, and you don’t have to make up your own doctrine.

    • dave_aka_lambsev

      Woody and Julie, For not a few years I have been aware of some of the RCC’s history for which one pope recently repented of before the world. I can forgive the RCC and live my life. Nevertheless I agree with much of what Linda Murray says! The doctrines of the RCC are not supported by the scriptures! Remember that Jesus and the church had only the Jewish scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) on Crucifixion Passover and at Pentecost. Peter, Paul, and all the apostles, eveangelists and teachers of the first century had only the Old Testament. It was from the Old Testament and there recollections of the words of Jesus that they preached, taught and made disciples. AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN PLANTING THE FAITH OF GOD IN THE WORLD WHICH REMAINS TO THIS DAY! Many have taken the scriptures to lightly. Many have preferred to eisogete and not exogete, that is to use scriptures to prove their own thoughts rather than study scripture to find God’s truth. Jesus was certainly virgin born, but the virgin was not without sin. Nor did she remain childless after Jesus’ birth! Those are just two of the matters concerning RCC doctrine which need to be renounced by all Catholics. And there is no evidence that Peter was ever a “pope.” There is every evidence that James (Jesus half brother) was the “prince” (chief) of the church in Jerusalem in the first century until STILL PAGAN Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. THAT is history. The RCC is not really formed until the split between Rome and what became the Eastern Orthodox Church. What happened between the second and twelfth centuries is a study to be sure. And we don’t have time for it here. But the visible “church” in any age and today is very different from the true invisible church which only God sees. We need to seek the Holy Spirit to teach us the doctrine of Jesus that we be able to judge what we encounter in our present day. John 7:24

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Houston, we have a problem. The Christian world is fast approaching 40,000 denominations, all making their doctrines from the same Word of God, with the same Holy Spirit as their guide! There is PLENTY of evidence that Peter was the first Pope, number one, Jesus, who gave him authority to bind and loose and gave him the keys to the kingdom. St Ignatius, on his way to martyrdom IN ROME, in 107 AD writes in the letters to the Smyrnaeans, “Respect the Bishop, as to Christ Himself” “See that all of you follow the Bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father.” “Avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils” ” ” Wherever the Bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”.
        You slander the Lord’s mother at your own peril. If you did a careful exegesis of scripture from a reliable translation, and some knowledge of Greek, the evidence is that Mary, as the Ark of the Covenant, is pure gold within and without, as Gabriel called her “Kecharitomene:, which means perfected in grace, past, present, and future, She is the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon at her feet. The 400 yr image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has her with rays of sun around her, and a CRESCENT MOON under her feet.(The fruit of this woman’s womb, will rule with an iron rod, and crush the head of Satan), and on her head a crown of 12 stars, because she is the Queen Mother of the Davidic King. It’s all there, you just have to be open to interpreting without prejudice. If you had the power to create your own mother, how would you create her? You would make your mother perfect. Jesus, who created ALL things, created His own mother. Eve was completely free from any stain of sin when she was created. She failed to remain sinless.

      • Woody

        GET A LIFE:

        REPLY PART 1:

        GET A LIFE:

        Woody and Julie,

        “For not a few
        years I have been aware of some of the RCC’s history for which one pope
        recently repented of before the world. I can forgive the RCC and live my
        life.” WRONG

        2 points :

        (1) All Popes,
        myself and you are sinners, and no one needs your forgiveness; it is Jesus Who
        forgives and he gave us that wonderful Sacrament of Penance (confession when He
        gave the First Bishops and their successors the power to forgive sins as they
        stand in Persona Christi) “Whosoever sins you shall forgive they are forgiven
        them; whosoever sins you retain they are retained.” It doesn’t take a 3rd
        grader that in order to make such a judgement as this—the sins need to be HEARD.

        (2) You are not
        reading the Catholic Church’s history—you are reading where you start with an
        error and then look up some history that “seems” to support and then you give
        your self a pat on the back so you have now achieved reductio ad absurdum.

        “Nevertheless
        I agree with much of what Linda Murray says! The doctrines of the RCC are not
        supported by the scriptures! ” “HERETICAL”

        (3) Catholics wrote
        Scripture, and there was “no NT until Constantine order the Council of Nicea to
        be convened, where it was put together and that was not until 325 NT. And how
        can you trust a Scripture which is missing 6 books of the OT; if you doubt
        me—go to the public library and prove it for yourself-ask to see the Bible
        Jesus quoted from [the Septuagint] (His approval), and not being a math major

        like the other
        minor domo on this site-count the books: you will find there are 72—not 66.
        This should be an easy enough task for you if you want to please Jesus,
        “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.”

        “Remember that
        Jesus and the church had only the Jewish scriptures (FALSE)(what we call the
        Old Testament)

        on Crucifixion
        Passover and at Pentecost. Peter, Paul, and all the apostles, eveangelists
        [SIC] and teachers of the first century had only the Old Testament.”

        (4.) Close but no
        cigar…Jesus used mainly the Greek OT called the Septuagint which is extant (if
        this is too big a word for you look it up); thus your posit is not true (only
        the Jewish scriptures. You follow Martin Luther’s false premise of Sola
        Scriptura, not Jesus {look it up – for how can your posit be true on this since
        you miss 6 books?)–only one reason why you are not making a true statement.
        While there is nothing in the Scritpures including “Sola Scriptura” [if you can
        find the verse or passage let me know] no one ever said, especially the
        Apostles “Listen to Scripture…” but St. Paul

        told Timothy just
        the opposite…”so what is the pillar and foundation of truth?” (1 Timothy 3:15)
        Every Protestant I know will say, the “Bible.” No Paul says it is not the bible
        for he tells his beloved Timothy, “…it’s the Church…” and

        there was only
        “One” [the Church of Jesus is “One Belief”–not 32,750+ and climbing by 1 a
        week because of erroneous “self-interpretations.” [no thank you Luther] “Holy”
        (still has the Eucharist and other 6 Sacraments) Catholic (a Greek word meaning
        “Universal” for– Christ’s Church is every-where) and “Apostolic” (the main
        body existing from its foundation during Jesus time when instituted by Him)
        Church at the time, which Paul was in. [these are the Marks of the True Church.
        Protestantsm stems from 1517, a little late to have been founded by Our Lord.

        “It was from
        the Old Testament and there recollections of the words of Jesus that they
        preached, taught and made disciples. AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN PLANTING THE FAITH
        OF GOD IN THE WORLD WHICH REMAINS TO THIS DAY!

        (5) Jesus brought a
        “New Covenant” – the OT is still recognized by His Church (some of it like the
        10

        Commandments) but
        not like the 616 goofy rules that had morphed into it by the time of Jesus-by
        the Pharisees which My Lord condemned.

        “Many have
        taken the scriptures to lightly. Many have preferred to eisogete and not exogete

        [Try either imodium
        or Peparation H for that and maybe it will help with your other problems listed
        above, and below]

        “… that is to
        use scriptures to prove their own thoughts rather than study scripture to find
        God’s truth.

      • Woody

        REPLY PART 1:

        GET A LIFE:

        Woody and Julie,

        “For not a few years I have been aware of some of the RCC’s history for which one pope recently repented of before the world. I can forgive the RCC and live my life.” WRONG

        2 points :

        (1) All Popes, myself and you are sinners, and no one needs your forgiveness; it is Jesus Who forgives and he gave us that wonderful Sacrament of Penance (confession when He
        gave the First Bishops and their successors the power to forgive sins as they stand in Persona Christi) “Whosoever sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them; whosoever sins you retain they are retained.” It doesn’t take a 3rd grader that in order to make such a judgement as this—the sins need to be HEARD.

        (2) You are not reading the Catholic Church’s history—you are reading where you start with an error and then look up some history that “seems” to support and then you give
        your self a pat on the back so you have now achieved reductio ad absurdum.

        “Nevertheless I agree with much of what Linda Murray says! The doctrines of the RCC are not supported by the scriptures! ” “HERETICAL”

        (3) Catholics wrote Scripture, and there was “no NT until Constantine order the Council of Nicea to be convened, where it was put together and that was not until 325 NT. And how
        can you trust a Scripture which is missing 6 books of the OT; if you doubt me—go to the public library and prove it for yourself-ask to see the Bible Jesus quoted from [the Septuagint] (His approval), and not being a math major

        like the other minor domo on this site-count the books: you will find there are 72—not 66. This should be an easy enough task for you if you want to please Jesus, “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.”

        “Remember that Jesus and the church had only the Jewish scriptures (FALSE)(what we call the Old Testament)

        on Crucifixion Passover and at Pentecost. Peter, Paul, and all the apostles, eveangelists [SIC] and teachers of the first century had only the Old Testament.”

        (4.) Close but no cigar…Jesus used mainly the Greek OT called the Septuagint which is extant (if this is too big a word for you look it up); thus your posit is not true (only the Jewish scriptures. You follow Martin Luther’s false premise of Sola
        Scriptura, not Jesus {look it up – for how can your posit be true on this since you miss 6 books?)–only one reason why you are not making a true statement. While there is nothing in the Scritpures including “Sola Scriptura” [if you can
        find the verse or passage let me know] no one ever said, especially the Apostles “Listen to Scripture…” but St. Paul
        told Timothy just the opposite…”so what is the pillar and foundation of truth?” (1 Timothy 3:15) Every Protestant I know will say, the “Bible.” No Paul says it is not the bible
        for he tells his beloved Timothy, “…it’s the Church…” and
        there was only “One” [the Church of Jesus is “One Belief”–not 32,750+ and climbing by 1 a week because of erroneous “self-interpretations.” [no thank you Luther] “Holy” (still has the Eucharist and other 6 Sacraments) Catholic (a Greek word meaning “Universal” for– Christ’s Church is every-where) and “Apostolic” (the main body existing from its foundation during Jesus time when instituted by Him)
        Church at the time, which Paul was in. [these are the Marks of the True Church.ProtestantIsm stems from 1517, a little late to have been founded by Our Lord. “It was from
        the Old Testament and there recollections of the words of Jesus that they preached, taught and made disciples. AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN PLANTING THE FAITH OF GOD IN THE WORLD WHICH REMAINS TO THIS DAY!

        (5) Jesus brought a “New Covenant” – the OT is still Recognized by His Church (some of it like the 10

        Commandments) but not like the 616 goofy rules that had morphed into it by the time of Jesus-by the Pharisees which My Lord condemned.

        “Many have taken the scriptures to lightly. Many have preferred to eisogete and not exogete

        [Try either imodium or Peparation H for that and maybe it will help with your other problems listed above, and below]

        “… that is to use scriptures to prove their own thoughts rather than study scripture to find God’s truth.

        • Woody

          REPLY PART TWO:

          (6) [no study in the world will help you with this—as above-only the Church which St Paul said can help you with “your misinterpretations.”

          ” Jesus was certainly virgin born, but the virgin was not without sin. Nor did she remain childless after Jesus’ birth!

          Those are just two of the matters concerning RCC doctrine which need to be renounced by all Catholics.”

          (7) “No-satan—he has always been after Jesus’ pure mother as you are.” Even your founders are not that dumb:

          Amidst all the stimulating discussion here about the Catholic doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity, it occurred to me that it would be instructive to point out that both Martin Luther and John Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, and Wesley — the progenitors of the three major branches of the Protestant Reformation — both held firmly to this Catholic teaching. For your consid-eration, let me add here some pertinent quotes from these two Protestant leaders.

          I’d respectfully ask our Evangelical and Fundamentalist friends here to think carefully about these quotes and consider just how far modern-day Protestantism has drifted
          from its 16th-century moorings, not to mention how very far it has drifted from the fifteen centuries of the Catholic Faith that preceded the Protestant Reformation.

          7 (A) Martin Luther (his writings) what he says:

          Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

          SOURCE: {Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4

          (1539) }

          Luther: “Christ . .. was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

          SOURCE: , ibid.,v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } [Luther}

          SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary,
          the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ
          . . .
          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

          Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .”

          Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
          know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This
          babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
          nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3

          / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } [Luther]

          Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

          “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
          Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

          John Calvin:

          Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in
          concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

          SOURCE: {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr.

          William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

          [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn
          from these words .. . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man
          will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

          SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

          “Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

          {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

          Huldreich Zwingli:

          ZWINGLI: “He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . “To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting – not prayer – ‘Hail Mary’ . . . “God esteemed Mary above all
          creatures, including the saints and angels – it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow.”

          ‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . .There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

          ZWINGLI: SOURCE: {G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The

          Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

          Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’

          {Thurian, ibid.,p.76}

          ZWINGLI: “I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this
          pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she
          remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”

          {Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

          Heinrich Bullinger:

          SOURCE: “Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from
          pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .

          Bullinger: ‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’

          SOURCE: {In Hilda Graef, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

          John Wesley (Founder of Methodism):

          “I believe… he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”

          SOURCE:
          {“Letter to a Roman Catholic,” quoted in A. C.

          Coulter, John Wesley, New York: Oxford University Press, 1964, 495}

      • Woody

        REPLY PART 3:

        THE FOLLOWING DESERVES A CLASSIFICATION OF ITS OWN–REALLY DUMB!

        “And there is no evidence that Peter was ever a “pope.” There is every evidence that James (Jesus half brother) was
        the “prince” (chief) of the church in Jerusalem in the first century until STILL PAGAN Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. THAT is history.

        (8) Since you are mired in the SUPER-DUPER PILE OF HERETICAL FECES, THIS WILL BE SO EASY TO REFUTE AS EVEN YOUR OWN PROTESTANT THEOLOGIAN, CALLS YOU “PREJUDICED AND “BLIND.” ADOLPH HARNACK –

        PROTESTANT THEOLOGIAN OF THE LAST CENTURY WHO SPENT HIS LIFE SEARCHING “PETER.”

        POINT 1: AS PRINCE OF THE APOSTLES

        The names of Peter, which include Simon and Cephas, are mentioned more times in the New Testament than any other Apostle.”Of Peter the most is known. Peter is mentioned 195
        times, the rest of the other Apostles COMBINED are only 130 times. The one mentioned next in frequency to Peter is John, to whom there are 29 references.”

        POINT 2: WHO IS THE BOSS?

        Acts 15:7, during the first Church Council, the Council of
        Jerusalem…And after a long debate, Peter got up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through MY mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe.”

        Whomade the choice? GOD did. Who did GOD choose? He chose Peter. Now that is “Primacy.”

        POINT 3: EVEN YOUR PROTESTANT THEOLOGIANS DISAGREE WITH YOU, FOR THEY SAY:

        Below we have the testimony of Protestant and Secular

        Theologians, who are/were dedicated to truth, not to “prejudical” Protestant viewpoints, [Harnack’s assessment, not mine, although I agree]. But I prefer to see it as
        Invincible Ignorance (a philosophical term; thank you Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Augustine), not to deliverate lying for the most part.[see Harnack, the
        great Protestant Theologian who gives honest testimony:

        The Overwhelming Conclusion! (from Protestant
        Theologians)

        “The only conclusion we can come to (unless we are totally blind), based on OVERWHELMING evidence, is that Peter not only came to Rome just before his death there in
        February of 68 A.D., but also immediately after his release from prison under Herod in 43 A.D. He founded the Church of God in the Imperial City and, in the almost 25 years
        between his two visits, preached the gospel of Christ
        throughout Europe, Britain and Asia.

        On his last visit to Rome in the latter part of 66 A.D., he preached the Good News to the people of Rome before being imprisoned in the Mamertine Jail for some nine
        months. Upon Nero’s return to Rome he was put to death.”

        In the catacombs of Rome the memory of Peter is wide-spread. Second only in importance to Christ as
        a subject of catacombal art, Peter is portrayed on the moldering walls of three eerie underground passageways MORE THAN THREE HUNDRED TIMES! There are almost
        30 different scenes and incidents from Peter’s life — all from the gospels — depicted here beneath the Imperial City (See Catacombs, by Hertling & Kirschbaum. Pp. 242-244).

        In an abbreviated form, the Apostle’s name was found present, at least 20 times, on the “Graffiti Wall” next to Peter’s grave beneath the high altar of St. Peters in the Vatican. Most often, his initials were arranged as a monogram, which has been found ALL OVER ROME “scratched in ancient monuments, inked onto old manuscripts, worked subtly into wall mosaics, incised on the margins of public signs, roughly stamped on medals, coins, rings, statuettes, pots and similar household wares, even painted on gaming boards” (The Bones of St. Peter, p. 97).

        Nothing occurs in a vacuum — a memory of Peter’s stay and martyrdom in Rome is to be found in many different places, if one is willing to HONESTLY look.

        “BIO”: Protestant Theologian: (An honest Protestant) and, (what do you know?) — he studied Aristotle and Socrates.

        Carl Gustav Adolf von Harnack (7 May 1851 – 10 June 1930) was a German Lutheran theologian and prominent church historian. He produced many religious publications from 1873
        to 1912.

        Harnack traced the influence of Hellenistic philosophy [go Aristotle] on early Christian writing.

        Among the distinctive characteristics of Harnack’s work were his insistence on absolute freedom in the study of church history and the New Testament (i.e. there were no “taboo” areas of research that could not be critically examined);
        his distrust of speculative theology, whether orthodox or liberal; and his interest in practical Christianity as a religious life and not a system of theology. Some of his addresses on social matters were published under the heading “Essays
        on the Social Gospel” (1907).

        Though the four gospels have been regarded as canonical since Irenaeus in the 2nd century,[1] Harnack – like earlier German scholars – rejected the Gospel of John as without
        historical value regarding Jesus’ life:

        One honest Protestant historian and theologian — Adolph Harnack — wrote that “to deny the Roman stay of Peter is an error which today is clear to every scholar who is NOT BLIND. The martyr death of peter at Rome was once contested by reason of Protestant prejudice.”

        John Ignatius Dollinger claims that the evidence “St. Peter worked in Rome is a FACT SO ABUNDANTLY PROVED and so deeply imbedded in the earliest Christian history, that whoever treats it as a legend ought in consistency to treat the whole of the earliest church history as LEGENDARY, or, at least, QUITE UNCERTAIN” (The

        1st Age of Christianity and the Church, London. 1867. P. 296).

        Again and again, the figures of Peter and Paul are found in paintings, artwork, beakers and bowls attributed to the fourth century (Peter: Prince of Apostles, p. 615).

        As author James Hardy Ropes states:

        “The tradition, however, that Peter came to Rome, and suffered martyrdom under Nero (54-68 A.D.) either in the great persecution which followed the burning of the city or
        somewhat later, rests on a different and FIRMER basis….It is UNQUESTIONED that 150 years after Peter’s death it was the COMMON BELIEF at Rome that he had died there, as
        had Paul. The “trophies” of the two great apostles could be seen on the Vatican Hill and by the Ostian Way…a firm local
        tradition of the death at Rome of both apostles is attested for a time NOT TOO DISTANT FROM THE EVENT. — The Apostolic Age in the Light of Modern Criticism. New York. 1908. Pp. 215-216.”

        “The belief that Peter was martyred in Rome was NOT due to the vanity or ambition of the LOCAL Christians, but was ADMITTED, at an early date, THROUGHOUT THE CHURCH. No testimony later than the middle of the 3rd century really needs to be considered; by this time the Roman church claimed to have the body of the apostle and NO ONE DISPUTED THE FACT.”

      • Woody

        REPLY PART 4:

        “It is more than interesting to realize that there IS NOT ONE SINGLE PASSAGE or utterance to the contrary in ANY of the literary works dealing with the foundations of Christianity — until AFTER the Reformation. Don’t you think that’s odd? Don’t you think SOMEONE would have seized upon this claim of Rome, and used it as a point of contention if there were ANY doubt at all regarding its validity? Don’t you think the eastern churches would have gotten UNLIMITED PROPA-GANDA MILEAGE out of this claim if it were not true? For centuries the eastern churches were in almost CONSTANT conflict with Rome over Easter, the Sabbath, and many other doctrinal issues. If they could have seized upon Rome’s claim
        that Peter had worked and died there, they SURELY would have used this against the Roman church! But they didn’t. WHY? Because there was ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT

        WHATSOEVER about Rome being the site of Peter’s death!”

        George Edmundson, in his book The Church in Rome in the 1st Century, dogmatically repeats the same conclusion:

        “We do not have even the SLIGHTEST TRACE that points to any other place which could be considered as the scene of his [Peter’s] death….It is a further important point that in the second and third centuries, when certain churches were in
        rivalry with the one in Rome, IT NEVER OCCURRED TO A SINGLE ONE OF THEM to contest the claim of Rome that it was the scene of the martyrdom of Peter. Indeed, even MORE can be said; precisely in the east, as is clear from the
        pseudo-Clementine writings and the Petrine legends, above all those that deal with Peter’s conflict with Simon the magician [Magus] THE TRADITION OF THE ROMAN RESIDENCE OF PETER HAD A PARTICULARLY STRONG HOLD. — London. 1913. Pp.114-115.”

        “Also, there is an abundance of material to show that Peter ordained Clement TO REPLACE LINUS as overseer of the Roman Church after the latter’s martyrdom in 67 A.D. The list
        of bishops of Rome in the Ante-Nicene Fathers show that

        Clement was an overseer from 68-71 A.D.”

        Evidently, his first item of business as overseer was to inform James of Peter’s death:

        “Clement to James, who rules [oversees] Jerusalem, the holy church of the Hebrews, and the churches everywhere excellently founded by the providence of God, with the
        elders and deacons, and the rest of the brethren, peace be always….He himself [Peter], by reason of his immense love towards men, HAVING COME AS FAR AS ROME, clearly and publicly testifying, in opposition to the wicked one who withstood him, that there is to be a good King over all the world, while saving men by his God-inspired doctrine, HIMSELF, BY VIOLENCE, EXCHANGED THIS PRESENT

        EXISTENCE FOR LIFE.” — Epistle of Clement to James,

        “Ante-Nicene Fathers.” Translated by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. Vol. VIII. New York. 1926. P. 218.

        “At this same time (circa 107 A.D.) Ignatius, one of the early church fathers, says in his epistle to the ROMAN CHURCH: “I do not, LIKE PETER AND PAUL, issue commandments
        unto you” — an oblique reference to Peter’s residence in Rome.”

        Tertullian, the eminent church father mentions, around the year 218, “those whom Peter baptized IN THE TIBER [RIVER] (On Baptism, 4). In his work Prescription Against Heretics (36), he says that the church of Rome”states that Clement was ORDAINED BY PETER.”

        “Clement of Alexandria (circa 220), as cited by Eusebius, adds another detail when he mentions PETER’S VISIT TO ROME to contend with SIMON MAGUS.

        A little later, in the 4th century, Arnobius (307 A.D.) says: “IN ROME ITSELF…they have hastened to give up their ancestral customs, and to join themselves to Christian truth, FOR THEY HAD SEEN THE CHARIOT OF SIMON MAGUS, AND HIS FIERY CAR BLOWN INTO PIECES BY THE MOUTH OF PETER” (Adv. Gentes, ii. 12).”

        (I DON’T THINK THIS WAS “BAD BREATH!)

        The classic history of the ancient popes known as the Liber Pontificalis (which can be dated, in its most ancient form, to the 6th century) contains a biography of Peter. In this biography it is stated that the apostle was buried near the
        place where he had been crucified, i.e. “NEAR THE PALACE OF NERO, IN THE VATICAN, CLOSE TO THE TRIUMPHAL REGION.”

        Jerome writes as follows: “Simon Peter, Prince of the
        apostles, after an episcopate of the Church at Antioch [my note—yes he was the 1st Bishop of Antioch] and preaching to the dispersion of those of the circumcision, who had
        believed in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, IN THE 2ND YEAR OF CLAUDIUS GOES TO ROME TO OPPOSE SIMON MAGUS and there for 25 years beheld the
        sacerdotal chair until the LAST YEAR OF NERO.”
        (CONTINUATION OF LIES) “It seems highly likely that Mark was sent, by Peter, to evangelize Alexandria and surrounding areas AS A RESULT OF PETER’S ACQUAINTANCE WITH
        PHILO! Eastern tradition claims Mark went to Alexandria from Rome at an early date — and eventually was martyred there.”

        (9) Again and again, the figures of Peter and Paul are found in paintings, artwork, beakers and bowls attributed to the fourth century (Peter: Prince of Apostles, p. 615).

        Do you realize the apostle Paul kept dragging his feet about visiting God’s people in Rome? WHY? Because he didn’t like to build on another man’s foundation!

        Notice what Roman 15:19-25, 28-29, and 32 say:

        I have preached Christ’s good news to the utmost of my capacity. I have always, however, made it an unbroken rule NEVER TO PREACH WHERE CHRIST’S NAME HAS ALREADY BEEN HEARD.The reason for that was that I HAD NO WISH TO BUILD ON OTHER MEN’S FOUNDATIONS;
        on the contrary, my chief concern has been to fulfill the text: “Those who have never been told about Him, and those who have never heard about Him will understand.” THAT IS THE REASON WHY I HAVE BEEN KEPT FROM VISITING YOU SO

        LONG, though for MANY YEARS I have been longing to pay you a visit. Now, however, having no more work to do here, I hope to see you on my way to Spain and, after enjoying a
        little of your company, to complete the rest of the
        journey with your good wishes….So when I have done this and officially handed over what has been raised, I shall set out for Spain and VISIT YOU ON THE WAY….Then if God
        wills, I shall be feeling very happy when I come to enjoy a

        PERIOD OF REST among you. —

        The New Testament of the Jerusalem Bible.

        That makes it exceedingly PLAIN — Rome had already been evangelized prior to the writing of the Book of Romans (57-58 A.D.)! And obviously, from what we have seen, the
        foundation Paul did not want to build on WAS THAT OF PETER’S!

        (“SUPER LIE II) “The RCC is not really formed until the split between Rome and what became the Eastern Ortho-dox Church. What happened between the second and twelfth
        centuries is a study to be sure. And we don’t have time for it here. But the visible “church” in any age and today is very different from the true invisible church which only God sees. We need to seek the Holy Spirit to teach us the doctrine of Jesus that we be able to judge what we encounter in our
        present day. John 7:24

        Wrong: You need to seek the Holy Spirit; so far you have posted the best summary of heresy I have seen in years.

        AS FINAL NAIL TO YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE: St Ignatius of Antioch when he was on his way to be eaten by lions (107 AD) when he “renamed Jesus’ Church from “The People of
        the Way” did NOT say RCC (the Roman Catholic Church)–he said ….”Catholic” Church.. RCC is a failed Protestant attempt to try and make the Catholic Church Jesus founded to appear to be “Local only” [Rome] which is a non-sequitor since it is a contradiction in terms “Universal” meaning
        “everywhere” vs “Rome” “local.” Take a class in remedial Aquinas before posting nonsense.

        God Bless Return to school

      • Woody

        AH, LET’S PUT LINDA TO BED RIGHT AWAY:

        PART 1

        “Woody and Julie, For not a few years I have been aware of some of the RCC’s history for which one pope recently
        repented of before the world.”

        No one even the Pope said he is without sin. He has to go to confession just like any other human; in fact if you saw on TV 2 weeks ago,our current pope jumped out of a procession and knelt down and confessed to a lowly priest.

        At least you admit there was no Scripture until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD so how were all those people “Sola
        Scrptura’ing” they must have been lost. And I did not hear of one Protestant present at the Council but all the Bishops who were busy writing and arranging the New Testment (written by Catholics), I may ad.

        FALSE #1 “Remember that Jesus and the church had only the Jewish scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) on
        Crucifixion Passover and at Pentecost. Peter, Paul, and all the apostles, eveangelists and teachers of the first century had only the Old Testament.”

        Yes, and Jesus used the Septuagint and quoted quite well from it which incidentally has all the books of the OT (72) not the (66) – minus the Books which the Protestants lost. The Septuagint is extant so if you want the truth, pick one up and count the number.

        Jesus’ Church doesn’t need “your forgiveness”; and it is not the RCC-it is the Catholic Church (RCC was given the name from their prejudicial past when they tried to (unsuccessfully) “localize Jesus Church” to Rome; but this is a “reductio ad absurdum” for it is a contradiction in itself, which most educated people can see; Rome=a specific place; Catholic=Universal or “all over” in the Greek word that it is.

        The Old Testament, like our Protestants today, had morphed into some 616 “Rules” which Jesus despised and it was done
        by the Pharisees and Saducees, and Protestants are suffering from it just as the old Phar’s and Sad’s did; you now have 37,000 churches because of wrong “interpretations” – at least – they had only 616.

        FALSE #2:
        And this is also false that they only had the OT, for they had already begun to write the forerunner to the NT; a book which was called the Didache, (70 AD), just 42 years after Jesus was crucified; I’ve read it many times as it is extant.

        TRUE—YOU DO DO THAT: “Many have preferred
        to eisogete and not exogete, that is to use scriptures to prove their own thoughts rather than study scripture to find God’s truth.”

        This is exactly what you do and why you have so many churches (“self-interpretation’) there is nowhere in your Sola
        Scriptura (not even in the Bible) which says “you may “interpret” the verses and come up with the right answer, and St. Paul “affirms this” when he says to Timothy I 3:15, “…listen to the Church” for it is “the pillar and foundation of
        Truth.”

        • Woody

          PART 2

          PARTIAL TRUTH: “It was from the Old Testament and there recollections of the words of Jesus that they preached,
          taught and made disciples. AND THEY SUCCEEDED IN PLANTING THE FAITH OF GOD IN THE WORLD WHICH REMAINS TO THIS DAY!”

          Great, St Peter did a wonderful job with his assignments to the Apostles; but the real impetus was that “the Church
          Universal was built on the blood of martyrs…” those many men and women who gave their lives rather than deny Jesus for those stupid Romans (see the flick St Barbara if you want to see exactly what they went through; the first 32 Popes beginning with St Peter were martyred, but there were so many wonderulf brave women who died for Christ and several still mentioned in the Mass through all
          these centuries: Even Peters wife was put to death under Nero; the 3rd Pope after Peter – Clement , wrote of this in his”Stromateus.” We, for men, have Ignatiuis, Polycarp; and a bevy of women: St. Eudicia (ex-hooker), Flavia
          Domitila, Blandina (viz Eusebius), Perpetua and Felicity (still mentioned in Christ’s Mass this very day; she and 5 others who yelled at the emperor Hilarian, “Thou art judging us, but God will judge thee.” Go girls. Felicitas was pregnant at the time of her execution and God had her give birth 2 days before her execution, after which she said, “Now I suffer what I suffer; but then another will be in me who will suffer for me, because I am too to suffer for Him.”

          COMPLETLY FALSE: “ Many have taken the scriptures to lightly. Jesus was certainly virgin born, but the virgin was not
          without sin. Nor did she remain childless after Jesus’ birth! Those are just two of the matters concerning RCC doctrine which need to be renounced by all Catholics”

          Boy you are a lost uneducated soul: (You guys are really thick), and gals-don’t let me let them out.

          Martin Luther
          (his writings)

          Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

          SOURCE: {Luther’s
          Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols.31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress
          Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons
          on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

          Luther: “Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

          SOURCE: , ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons
          on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } [Luther}

          SOURCE: A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That
          Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
          [Luther]

          Luther: “Scripture does not say or indicate that she
          later lost her virginity . . .”

          Luther: “When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not
          know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed
          nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That
          Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
          [Luther]

          Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

          “Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that
          Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.”

          {Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

          John Calvin

          Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in
          concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

          SOURCE: {Harmony
          of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

          [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn
          from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man
          will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

          SOURCE: {Pringle, ibid., vol.
          I, p. 107}

          “Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

          {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary
          on John, (7:3) }

          Huldreich Zwingli

          ZWINGLI: “He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical
          defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . “To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting – not prayer – ‘Hail Mary’ . . . “God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels – it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow.”

          ‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . .
          There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

          ZWINGLI: SOURCE: {G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London:
          Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The
          Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . .,
          Sep. 17, 1522}

          Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’

          {Thurian, ibid., p.76}

          ZWINGLI: “I have never thought, still less taught, or
          declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of
          holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”

          {Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

          Heinrich Bullinger

          SOURCE: “Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s
          perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious
          as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .

          Bullinger: ‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified
          by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’

          SOURCE: {In Hilda Graef, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

          John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)

          “I believe… he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”

          SOURCE: {“Letter to a Roman Catholic,”
          quoted in A. C. Coulter, John
          Wesley, New York: Oxford University Press, 1964, 495}

          • Woody

            PART 3

            COMPLETELY FALSE: “ Many have taken the scriptures to lightly. Jesus was certainly virgin born, but the virgin was not
            without sin. Nor did she remain childless after Jesus’ birth! Those are just two of the matters concerning RCC doctrine which need to be renounced by all Catholics. And there is no evidence that Peter was ever a “pope.”

            Where do I put this lie to bed:

            The names of Peter, which include Simon and Cephas, are mentioned more times in the New Testament than any other Apostle. “Of Peter the most is known. Peter is mentioned 195 times, the rest of the other Apostles COMBINED are only 130
            times. The one mentioned next in frequency to Peter is John, to whom there are 29 references.”

            Acts 15:7, during the first Church Council, the Council of
            Jerusalem…

            And after a long debate, Peter got up and said to them,

            “Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through MY mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe.”

            Who made the choice? GOD did. Who did GOD choose? He chose Peter. Now that is primacy.

            FROM A PROTESTANT POINT OF VIEW (AN HONEST PROTESTANT WHO WAS ONE OF THEIR THOLOGIANS [ WHICH THEY CANNOT HAVE ANYMORE SINCE THEY HAVE NO CONSISTANT DOCTRINE, LIKE JESUS’ CHURCH…

            The Overwhelming Conclusion!

            “The only conclusion we can come to (unless we are totally blind), based on OVERWHELMING evidence, is that Peter not only came to Rome just before his death there in February of 68 A.D., but also immediately after his release
            from prison under Herod in 43 A.D. He founded the Church of God in the Imperial City and, in the almost 25 years between his two visits, preached the gospel of
            Christ throughout Europe, Britain and Asia.

            On his last visit to Rome in the latter part of 66 A.D., he
            preached the Good News to the people of Rome before being imprisoned in the Mamertine Jail for some nine months. Upon Nero’s return to Rome he was put to death.”

            In the catacombs of Rome the memory of Peter is wide-spread. Second only in importance to Christ as a subject of
            catacombal art, Peter is portrayed on the moldering walls of three eerie underground passageways MORE THAN THREE HUNDRED TIMES! There are almost 30 different scenes and incidents from Peter’s life — all from the gospels —
            depicted here beneath the Imperial City (See Catacombs, by Hertling & Kirschbaum. Pp. 242-244).

            In an abbreviated form, the apostle’s name was found present, at least 20 times, on the “Graffiti Wall” next to Peter’s grave beneath the high altar of St. Peters in the Vatican. Most often, his initials were arranged as a monogram, which has been found ALL OVER ROME “scratched in ancient monuments, inked onto old manuscripts, worked subtly into wall mosaics, incised on the margins of public signs, roughly stamped on medals, coins,
            rings, statuettes, pots and similar household wares, even painted on gaming boards” (The Bones of St. Peter, p. 97).

            Nothing occurs in a vacuum — a memory of Peter’s stay and
            martyrdom in Rome is to be found in many different places, if one is willing to HONESTLY look.

            BIO: Protestant Theologian: (An honest Protestant) and, (what do you know?) — he studied Aristotle and Socrates.

            Carl Gustav Adolf von Harnack (7 May 1851 – 10 June 1930) was a German Lutheran theologian and prominent church historian. He produced many religious publications from 1873 to 1912.

          • Woody

            PART 4

            Harnack traced the influence of Hellenistic
            philosophy [go Aristotle] on early Christian writing.

            Among the distinctive characteristics of
            Harnack’s work were his insistence on absolute freedom in the study of church
            history and the New Testament (i.e. there were no “taboo” areas of
            research that could not be critically examined); his distrust of speculative
            theology, whether orthodox or liberal; and his interest
            in practical Christianity as a religious life and not a system of theology.
            Some of his addresses on social matters were published under the heading
            “Essays on the Social Gospel” (1907).

            Though the four gospels have been regarded as canonical since Irenaeus in the 2nd
            century,[1] Harnack –
            like earlier German scholars – rejected the Gospel of John as without
            historical value regarding Jesus’ life:

            One
            honest Protestant historian and theologian — Adolph Harnack — wrote that
            “to deny the Roman stay of Peter is an error which today is clear to every
            scholar who is NOT BLIND. The martyr death of peter at Rome was once contested
            by reason of Protestant prejudice.”

            John Ignatius Dollinger claims that the evidence
            “St. Pe

            “HONESTLY, SO MANY UNEDUCATED PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.”

            WHY WOULD ANYONE LISTEN TO THIS GUY:

            There is every evidence that James (Jesus half brother) was the “prince” (chief) of the church in Jerusalem in the first century until STILL PAGAN Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. THAT is history.

            Wow. His only TRUTH in his whole POST: Yes, James was the Bishop of the Jerusalem Church.

            AND THE BEST IS SAVED FOR LAST 2 MORE LIES:

            FALSE: “The RCC is not really formed until the split between Rome and what became the Eastern Orthodox Church. What
            happened between the second and twelfth centuries is a study to be sure.”

            You missed Jesus telling Cephas (Peter He was building His Church upon him) so you are actully calling Jesus a liar; good luck at your judgement.

            You missed Jesus giving Peter “the Keys to His Kingdom.” You missed Jesus promising He will “I will be with you unitl the
            End of Days.”

            You missed all of the Sacraments … you missed John VI and stand with the first Protestants “who said of Jesus “this his a
            hard saying i.e, He giving them His Body and Blood. And walked away never to follow Him again, only Peter and the rest stood with Jesus, ‘To whom shall we go,’ said the First Pope.

            FALSE:
            “And we don’t have time for it here. But the visible “church”
            in any age and today is very different from the true invisible church which only God sees. We need to seek the Holy Spirit to teach us the doctrine of Jesus that we be able to judge what we encounter in our present day.”

            You would not have 37,700 Churches if you knew what Jesus said; The Catholic Church today is still ONE [IN DOCTRINE,
            HOLY (HAS THE EUCHARIST) CATHOLIC (FOUND EVERYWHERE) AND APOSTOLIC (STEMS DIRECTLY FROM THE APOSTLES)

            TRUE: GET A LIFE AND SOME EDUCATION

        • nworder

          To think that the NT letters sat on a church shelf for 300 years before they were read is nonsense. The letters to the churches were read out at the time they were written as were the gospels. They were copied and passed round at the time of writing. Christians already knew the authentic ones.

          Nowhere in the NT is there an indication that Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in from 66 – 70 ad – meaning that the NT AND Revelation was written before this date. It might not have been altogether in one book but the letters were circulated or read out to the christians.

          The whole bible commands a Christian to read it in its entirety.

          “Man cannot live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.” The WHOLE bible.

          Since Jesus needed the sword of the spirit (scripture) to defeat the devil – how much more do we need it daily.

          The gospel writers did not wait hundreds of years as Luke’s letter to Theophilus states.

          • Woody

            I love these easy errors to answer and that is why I keep my answers so short:

            “To think that the NT letters sat on a church shelf for 300 years before they were read is nonsense.

            I have never seen anyone say this except yourself; of course they did sit on a shelf—they were written by many people in addition to others, like yourself, trying to confuse people and so—these

            “false writings,” had to be sorted out; in denying the early Church Councils and their purpose—you

            Are denying what intelligent people know to be true; you are like someone coming along 100

            Years from now and saying “Why WWII was never there.”

            Most people could not even read “see Julie’s post on the reason people began to learn to read.”

            “Nowhere in the NT is there an indication that Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in from 66 – 70 ad –“

            You are still stuck on Martin Luther’s Sola “Fake” Scriptura which is not even in the Bible, and this

            fact ins what led such fine Protestants such as Scott Hahn to return to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

            Again- no reputable scholar denies the Temple being destroyed in 70 AD (we get this from all the public school graduates.

            “The letters to the churches were read out at the time they were written as were the gospels. They were copied and passed round at the time of writing. Christians already knew the authentic ones.”

            Another SOS remark. I guess you had stock in Xerox back then. I can just see Peter up at the nearest Staples at the machine and Paul waiting in line anxiously behind him to “copy’ his Favorite John VI (which is where we meet our
            first Protesters) The truth is that Monks in Monasteries did the laborious job of duplicating what was written on they were given only to

            Their local Catholic Churchs, see Antioch, Jerusalem, etc. So there was no liberal circulations at this time – another figment of your imagination. In fact, not many Bibles were around until the inventing of the Printing press by
            Gutenberg, many centuries later; like many Protestants
            you are viewing the time of Jesus and Apostles with 2014 eyeglasses and probably think Jesus drove a Volkswagon or Peter living in a 3 bedroom ranch home
            “The whole bible commands a Christian to read
            it in its entirety.”

            There is nothing wrong with reading the Bible as it is beautiful and truth; Where you error comes In is “self-interpretation” of the Bible to suit already preformed errors in your mind. This is the reason you have over 37,000 churches all teaching different things (like gay marriage) and why Scot Hahn said, he believes 50 years from now there will only be the Catholic Church standing as Jesus promised , “I will be with you until

            The End of Days.” So, yes I love the Scriptures but am not vain enough to think I can translate

            It on my own—nowhere other in Martin’s mixed up mind would this concept exist. And St Paul bears this out, “What is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?” Nine out of ten Protestants Will answer “of course, the Bible…” And Nine
            out of Ten Protestants will be wrong. In 1 Timothy 3:15
            St Paul says, “…it is the Church,” which shows that Jesus’ Church which He Founded on Peter and the rest of the Apostles was already “alive and kicking.” Thank you, Scott, and Jesus for this wonderful gift especially my favorite blessing, receiving your Body and Blood,

            Soul and Divinity every day of my life.

            “”Man cannot live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.” The WHOLE bible.”

            More selective “self-interpretation” to fit an erroneous concept…

            God Bless, and think you HS for your guidance to refute heresy…

      • Woody

        SORRY AGREEING WITH LINDA ONLY MEANS YOU BOTH WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOL; IT TOOK ME ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO REFUTE YOUR LIES; AND I TOOK A BREAK FOR A CUP OF COFFEE.
        MY ADVICE- GET YOUR GED

    • nworder

      But Pope John Paul embraced blatant syncretism – this is so far from what the church fathers would have done. The Pope worshiped in services to Buddha and Mohammed and the Dalai Lama.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Are you rebuking him, or just trying to slander? Do you know what was in his heart? Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors and was rebuked by the Pharisees, I hope you aren’t one.
        Here’s the problem all non-Catholics make: You think that the Pope is “perfect” and “without sin”. He is not. He is infallible in matters of faith and morals, and only when he is speaking ‘ex cathedra’, from the seat, the same as Moses had.
        Since you have brought up the “Church Fathers”, I’m interested in what you think of their beliefs and practices as compared to yours, if you could, please be specific.

        • nworder

          I read what you might call the anti novus ordo catholic websites eg about the 100 heresies of his writings as well as benedict’s heresies. Also John Paul’s sayings that there are many paths to God through pagan worship with Buddhists Hindus animists the dalai lama etc etc
          The church fathers condemned this communication with devil worship.
          So I would follow certain church fathers as they were closer to the light and always tried to justify their practices to scripture only. Certainly the church fathers before 320 AD would have been purified by the persecutions and their practices were trustworthy.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You just pinned yourself. Why don’t your take your own advice to “follow certain church fathers as they were closer to the light”, since “their practices were trustworthy”? If you did so, you would be Catholic.

          • nworder

            I read the early church fathers and I go to the catholic church.
            But I see the CC not following what the early church fathers said in many respects especially with syncretism which is what the masons stand for. Worshipping at Assisi with hundreds of pagans is not what the ECF would have done.

            This fits with the great apostasy.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Any good Catholic would know they are commanded not to join the masonic organization or any like them, this has been in effect for centuries, so your assertion doesn’t gel.

          • nworder

            If you google this article :-
            Partially adapted from the article :-
            “John Salza: Have Freemasons Infiltrated the Knights of Columbus?”
            Published by both The Remnant Newspaper (Michael Matt / John Salza, February 5, 2011)
            and Catholic Family News (John Vennari / John Salza, March 2012)

            In 2012, Salza is
            releasing a book (with co-author Robert Sungenis) that documents Freemasonry’s infiltration into the Church called The Consecration of Russia – How Seven Popes Failed to Heed Heaven’s Command and Brought Turmoil to the Church and the World.

            After Salza left Freemasonry in 1999, he joined the Knights of Columbus which he found was also infiltrated with freemasonry.

            It is well documented in other catholic websites.
            The masons said this was their aim – they decided that they could not take on the CC head to head but by infiltration could bring it down – it goes back hundreds of years.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Satan has, and will always, in every way possible, try to take down the Catholic Church. I rest in the PROMISE Jesus made “The gates of hell will NOT PREVAIL against it” That’s in the Bible. His word stands till the end. Again, if any Catholic is a member of the Masons, they are in grave sin and cannot receive communion.

          • Woody

            What? Masonary is condemned in the Catholic Church. So you make up your own assumptions.

          • nworder

            Masonry might be condemned but it exists in most churches including the CC. It is their plan – you would have to put blinkers on to ignore it. Pedophilia is condemned but was rampant in the church.
            So I am not making anything up.

          • Woody

            You are also rampant in churches; you never make any sense ; if you did you would note that what you speak of is a “societal problem,”–who is it that just made Boy Scout leaders – accept pedophiles and this is not someone who “loves bicycles.” The devil exists in all churches too; so what is the point. I know of only one Mason I have ever met in the Catholic Church since it is forbidden; it like the other guy on this site ‘who “thinks he is a Catholic (like Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelousy, both who have been forbidden to receive Out Lord’s Body and Blood. Likewise for Ted Kennedy before them; likewise Rudy Guliani…a Catholic is one who believers ALL that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches–not someone who “says” i am catholic – I boiled over in laughter when I saw Christ Matthews on TV and he actually said, “I am a catholic.”
            Right! You need to make a distinction between “sins” and sinners and I myself am certainly one–if you saw the TV about 2 weeks ago you would have seen the Pope jump out of a procession line to go to confession to a lowly priest–great humility.
            “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” and “You see the splinter in your brother’s eye, jet fail to see the “plank” in your own.” “Oh, thou hypocrite.”
            Thank you Jesus, for the gentile reminder…

            God Bless

          • nworder

            Masonry has infiltrated all churches – google the list in the CC.
            “I am not in all churches’ what does this mean????.

          • Woody

            You are many centuries behind the times; you need to catch up:

            The leadership of the Roman Catholic Church has long been an outspoken critic of Freemasonry, first prohibiting Catholics from joining the fraternity in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has made several pronouncements forbidding Catholics from becoming Freemasons under threat of excommunication. Although there was some confusion of the issue following Vatican Council II, the Church still prohibits membership in the Freemasons because it believes that the principles of Freemasonry and the teaching of the Catholic Church are irreconcilable. A 1983 statement from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith approved by Pope John Paul II stated “The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.” and “… membership in them (Masonic associations) remains forbidden.”

            There i nothing worse than being denying the right to receive the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
            Ask Joey “Duh” Biden, Nancy Pelousy, Ted Kennedy (oops he died), Rudy Gullani; I note that most are Demoncrats which does not surprise me. This denial is usually reserved to Public figures because they give “scandal” to the Faithful…
            “Infiltration” means nothing; pedophiles have infiltrated all churches…”
            I don’t know why you are not in all churches–neither am I.
            God Bless

          • Woody

            Oddd, since they were all Catholics and if you view Walid’s paper the early Christians worshiped just as the Catholics today.

          • nworder

            But the early Christians had no part with other Gods . This was a test that the empire used. Making what seemed like a simple act to pantheism would have set them free from persecution even if they secretly held their faith – but most refused and became martyrs .

          • Woody

            “I am the Lord thy God! Thou shalt have no other Gods but me!” anything other than this loyalty violates the Ten Commandments, and these brave men and women knew that.
            Of course they had “no other Gods and we affirm the same Commandments today. Pantheism has many gods before Him. It is a heresy of the worst order. [Since God can “read all hearts’ there is no way one can “secretly hold their faith.” The martyrdom was in God’s plan and the early Christians knew “What does it matter if one gains the whole world and lose his immortal soul.” Thank you, Father. As to God’s plan He knew from the start His one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (the Marks of the True Church of Jesus Christ) would be built on the “blood of Martyrs” and boy–did it grow, the early Christians were hungry for “relics’ of these martyrs and this is still in place today; my own Church has a relic of Blessed Margaret of Castello (one of my favorite “soon to be sainted ones”) [Rent the movie, St. Barbara, and see the monstrous Romans at work; see her horrible dad [he ended up being struck by lightening] , and see how the Christians hid out in the caves (Catacombs) {This actress is the prettiest woman i have ever seen)
            Their was a group who did what you say and they were called the “Lapsis,” and boy, did the Popes have a time dealing with them when they wanted to return to “the Faith,” but forgiveness is all, and the early Church made the right decision, confession, and acts of penance ruled out.
            God Bless

  • Woody

    Pray to the Holy Spirit for 30 days asking for His guidance like Elizabeth Hahn did, and he will lead you to Truth. God Bless

    • Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
      13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [b]
      15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
      16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
      23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
      25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
      27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
      29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
      33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
      37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
      The Catholic church is in deep do do…..

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Can’t help but notice you left out verses 2-3 before he tongue lashes them, which prove that they had authority on earth. “the scribes and Pharisees SIT ON MOSES’ SEAT, therefore DO AND OBSERVE WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU.” They had the keys (in verse 13, the word shut in the Greek means, using a KEY TO SHUT) and the seat of authority. Jesus gave the keys and the seat of authority to Peter.

        • Woody

          He does what a fifth grader can do-open a book and put the words in here, over and over…no brilliance here-since we all have our own Books…

          • Yea Woody no brilliance but a hell of lot more common sense than you!!! I see your expertise is in studying the history of the saints…I guess God will punish me and not you for forgetting what St. Anthony stood for and how we should all pray to him for our lost articles…My my you are going to be in for a very rude awakening Mr. “LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND”

        • ✞Servant✞

          Pharisees & scribes sat (themselves) on Moses seat. Moses was chosen by the Lord, just like the 12 Apostles & the Apostle Paul who spoke not their own interpretation or words, but from the words God had given them through the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees & scribes spoke, with authority (seat), the Torah, the word of God, given to Moses, and enforced strict obedience to it. They themselves were hypocrites (Matthew23: 1-12) Yeshua didn’t give the disciples keys to tell a new Gospel or to add & change His words.. Heaven forbid!! Apostles (chosen) would never approve-Galatians 1:8, The keys He gave the disciples is answered in John 20:19-23… The Holy Spirit (of Truth)
          “On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You know too much about the Old Testament to feign ignorance of the Keys. They are in Isaiah 22. Only the royal steward of the Davidic King had the Keys, and he exercised all the power of the King (binding and loosing, opening and shutting) when the King was ‘absent’ or just in bed late like King David was on one occasion The keys were passed down to the next succeeding royal steward. When Jesus returns, the pope surrenders ‘the keys’ to King Jesus because he has ‘The Key’ of David. Since you quoted the power to forgive or not to forgive sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, do you believe it?

          • ✞Servant✞

            My King doesn’t sleep!! He is alive and Omnipresent, Omnipotent & Omniscient, He is God. He isn’t going anywhere. He is within me, He is everywhere…there is no escaping Him.

            “He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:8

            “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” John 14:18

            “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matt 28:20

            I find it odd, you’d suggest such rubbish. You ascribe attributes only of God to Mary and so-called man-appointed saints. And think God is sleeping?
            All can forgive those who trespass against us!! But only God can truly forgive sins. All must repent and obey the Lord.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Of course He doesn’t sleep! God wasn’t asleep in the OT was He? Of course not. But, ask yourself, why did He always have ONE man on earth that spoke authoritatively for him? What makes you think we are different? Look at the chaos that has ensued since Luther split away, close to 40,000 different denominations, everybody making themselves their own authority.
            Matthew 28:20 – please read the passage beginning back at verse 26. When you reread it, you’ll see that He was speaking specifically to, and giving authority to, His hand-picked Apostles (not to us) ,-‘teaching them (that’s us) to obey everything’.
            We can, and are supposed, to forgive, that is true. That’s not at all what this passage is about by any stretch. What do you do with the rest of the passage? The part that says “and whose sins you DO NOT forgive, are not forgiven? This isn’t that hard to figure out. Do you think that if you don’t forgive someone, that heaven declares it not forgiven? No way. What about sins that are against God alone- Fornication, drunkenness, etc?. You can twist it till you have a pretzel, but there is no getting away from the most literal and intended meaning. God has always used His chosen leaders carry out His will. The saints only have power through God, it’s not power of their own. How did Elisha’s bones have power? Peter’s shadow, Paul’s handkerchiefs, through God of course, why do you struggle with this?
            I noticed you omitted ANY reference to the Keys.
            Mary is venerated much as the Ark of the Old Covenant was. She is the mother of the Davidic King, therefore, she is the Queen Mother, far more exalted then Bathsheba or the other Queen mothers in the kingdom. David danced and leapt for joy in front of the Ark, was he ‘worshipping’ it? Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. As Revelation 12 states, Mary is the Mother of the children who keep the commandments of God and bear witness to Jesus Christ. I hope you’re one of them. John the beloved disciple had no trouble taking her as mother as Jesus commanded in His dying breath from the cross, why don’t you? I think Jesus is far beyond disappointed that anyone who calls themselves a disciple of His not cherish love, call and treat as blessed, His Mother. What human being one earth that every lived can compare to her? She is His Mother, His child, and His spouse. Only Mary has those credentials. .

          • Woody

            Yah, you sudda ben a male priest but you is too pretty for that.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why do I, a lowly Catholic, have to give scripture to Bible-thumpers? I can’t recite to you how many of them bring up “call no man father” “forbidding to marry is doctrine of demons”, thinking they are refuting the Catholic Church. I have to show them the verses where Paul calls himself Father, and then ‘Father’ Abraham, and then Jesus exalts the “Eunuch” for the sake of the Kingdom, and Paul’s teaching that an unmarried man is better if he can abide by it, then the companions of the Lamb in REV 14 that are virgins who have never been defiled with women. Geez! they wear me out.

          • Woody

            Imagine if you were “one of them,” how bad off we could be; I thank Jesus every day for, by an accident of birth, I was born into His Church; Walid hit it on the head–it is pure “prejudice,” and that is why I admire Walid–for some reason he appears to following Jesus most important teaching “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.” And “seek and you shall find…”
            It makes me sad, yet–I never met a Protestant I didn’t love, and so I see Jesus all alone sometimes in His Tabernacle waiting as His wonderful gift of the Holy Eucharist being ignored. But I sense a change-you know I thought those 3 whole congregations of Protestants coming over in Toto to their Catholic Church, returning where they belong and I just found out there are a lot more than these 3 in the D.C. area. Think of what a force we would be again if the other 800 mm returned to their rightful inheritance. In Church last week I marveled at the 500 school children at the daily Mass and thought of “we won’t stay at 1.2 billion for very long–a priest just mentioned on Catholic Radio (St Gabriel) that “what is the largest Christian Church in the world today, and of course I knew it was US; but then he said, what is the next largest–“Lapsed Catholics,’ and you know-he is right–what a disgrace!”
            God Bless, and keep up your good WORKS – Oops! I’ll go to hades for mentioning that, and the next time someone comes to the door and says, “Is your father, home,” if I were dumb, “I would say–what father?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’m thankful too. 3 of my siblings are outside the church, 2 in. I had to do a lot of studying to “stay” in the church though, I’m surrounded by Protestants (OKLA) that insisted I was in the Whore of Babylon. There, finally began my ‘journey’. When I had all the Biblical background for ALL our beliefs and practices, I said a prayer to my Father in Heaven, “Thank you for your beautiful church, I’m ashamed that I considered leaving it, please forgive me”. I learned about the error of birth control from the writings of Pope Paul VI , (Humanae Vitae), & John Paul II. I wished I had read them years earlier. Nobody knows, even Catholics, the brilliance of Benedict. He is about as brilliant a man as Augustine, sad so few read his works. Even in-vitro fertilization is wrong, as ‘extra’ embryos that are “made”, get destroyed, so it’s no different than abortion.

          • shoebat

            Thinking about your comment: “It makes me sad, yet–I never met a Protestant I didn’t love, and so I see Jesus all alone sometimes in His Tabernacle waiting as His wonderful gift of the Holy Eucharist being ignored.”

          • shoebat

            Also, its not the numbers that count, but the remnant. I see a few Elijahs (and Elijets) here who never bent the knee to Ba’al.

          • Woody

            Because we wrote the Bible and sorted it out and pieced it correctly under the HS at Nicea, did a little at the next Council and now the Prots have it to mis-intepret it – so that way they assured it would develop into 40,000 churches, ignoring Jesus once again …”that they all be One, and “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free,” – 2 ignores.

          • nworder

            Choosing celibacy is good if a person has this gift but enforcing celibacy is a doctrine of demons.
            Being in unity is good but not at the expense of doctrine.

            Paul says do not even sit with a glutton and a drunkard which
            many priests and popes were – read your own history.

            Having attended catholic services for 25 years I see 1 billion catholics getting by on 5 minutes of scripture per week – it would take about 20 years to get through the bible.
            Most people who would say they were catholic dont attend services or read the bible.
            You seldom see a catholic entering church with a bible – maybe sometimes a missal.
            5 minutes a week of the sword of the Spirit is not enough to make the devil flee – I know since I did it.
            The catholic websites are more into scripture but in my opinion this came from protestant influence and competition.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No priest is forced into the priesthood, it is by choice. Temple priests had to be celibate when they served their term of service. If you wish to convert a sinner, you might need to sit with them as Jesus did. Noah got drunk but he was not condemned. King David committed adultery and had Uriah sent to the front lines to kill him, he was forgiven. The Catholic mass has more time spent in scripture reading than almost any protestant service. Catholics have a full reading from the OT, one Psalm, one NT reading, and one gospel reading. See how that stacks up against most protestant services pastors who spend one hour on one verse or topic of the Bible, with maybe a couple of songs sung. The Catholic mass is worship in praise of God, and the breaking of the bread as Jesus prescribed and as the Book of Acts bears out.
            If you judge a person by whether or not they carry a bible into church you are judging a millennium’s worth of Christians that had no Bible. The ordinary person could not afford to spend three years wages to buy a bible, and most could not read. The printing press was not invented until the 15th century, you again have a Catholic to thank for that. Our bible readings are in a lectionary that are contained in the church for us so 100’s of people don’t have to carry a bible into church. How mug and arrogant for you in giving credit for Catholic website to be “more into scripture” to protestant influence.
            Do I need to remind you of the Church that canonized the Bible! I assure you, it wasn’t your church.

          • Woody

            Why? Jesus spoke about them: “They have eyes yet they do not see; ears yet they do not hear.” When one is so deeply stuck in “error” they find it hard to get through the feces. They are also public school graduates…looking forward now to “Common Core,” -yuk!

            The good news is that the newer ones who are seeing through satan’s lies are great Protestants coming over, and always going to a higher place. bishop Sheen used to say, :satan;s best trick is to make one believe “he does not exist.” We see that in Bill.

          • Woody

            Ah, but not everyone who cries “Lord” “Lord” will be saved, especially thinking that God (Jesus) will let anyone into Heaven who spends their lives “bashing” His mom…without her “Yes” to the Archangel Gabriel you would have no Savior…even in our society here on earth…bashing someone’s mom is not exactly praised by mankind…but the Theotokos, Herself, –what gall…good luck at your judgement.
            Walid, by his excellent, thoughtful, and great research has already (because of his open mindedness) has put so much of the bunk aside…and shown that the Christians during the time of the Apostles and since,lived the same as Catholics today, not like Protestants…the early Christians had statues in their Churches, icons, etc., there and if you had an open mind you could travel and view the Catacumbus the burial places of the first Christians and see the icons for yourself and also see the initials of St Peter the First Bishop of Rome scribbled over 300 times on their walls. And incense too.
            This is a major factor in the brilliant Scott Hahn which led him into Jesus’ One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church when he started studying the early Church Fathers and said, “Why, this is nothing like we Protestants believe.” We are gaining some of the best and brightest.

          • ✞Servant✞

            The gate is narrow and few find it!!

            “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, you that work INIQUITY (ἀνομίαν (iniquity, disobedience, sin, lawlessness) .” Matthew 7:22-23.
            Catholicism, like Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, all add to the Word of God. All point to scripture taking it out of context to do so. All of them teach people to put man made doctrines & prophecy above God’s Word. All of them take time from people knowing the Lord & walking with Him, to walk with the created.

            Who bashes the Jesus’ Mom? The Catholic Church does!! Heaven forbid, she ever found out that so many are taught to worship, idolize, immortalize, deitize and pray to her.

          • Woody

            Good luck at your judgement, “Gee. I know I spent my life bashing your Mother but will you let me in anyway?

            “Oh, thou ingrate,” you would not even had Me as your Savior, if My Beautiful Mom has said No! to the Archangel Gabriel.
            All have a free will…

          • shoebat

            “The keys He gave the disciples is answered in John 20:19-23… The Holy Spirit (of Truth)”

            So then you are saying that the “keys” is the “Holy Spirit”?

            Then by this logic only Peter was given the “Holy Spirit”? If your analysis is correct, Jesus would have given the keys to all the disciples.

            Can you provide us any data from the early Church that interpreted this the way you do? Or is this your private interpretation? Just curious.

          • ✞Servant✞

            What? John 20 “when the disciples were together…Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” This was before Pentecost!

            Those chosen by the Lord to give the Gospel. Holy Spirit is the seal of redemption.. Apostles are the “foundation of New Jerusalem,”

            “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Revelation 21:11.

            We are told numerous times not to add to or change the Gospel & Word of God, Revelation 22:18,19; Isaiah 9:16, Galatians 8:1-9, 1 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Corinthians 11. They were given the Holy Spirit to remember everything that the Lord had taught them (keys)…

            What do you think the keys meant?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The keys are exactly what the Bible tells us they are. Read Isaiah 22. They are the Keys to the Kingdom of David which Jesus ‘inherited’, and whose throne he sits on, through his Mother’s and earthly father’s lineage. Genealogies in the Bible are given for a very specific reason. Every Davidic King from Solomon forward had a royal steward, which is an office with successors, had the Keys to the Kingdom on his shoulder. The royal steward was a ‘father over the house’, and exercised all the power of the King as delegated to him by the King. Jesus left a kingdom, not a democracy. Jesus gave the Keys to Peter, the royal steward and shepherd, not to you or to me or to any one else. If you think he did, I will need to see scripture to prove your understanding.
            The spirit fell on them at Pentecost in fulfillment of what Jesus prophesied in John 20. Are you trying to establish some kind of a “gap” of time that this power to forgive or not forgive was effective for? If so, you are twisting scripture to make it fit your theory. Remember, we aren’t to add or change the gospel or Word of God! Jesus in no way eluded to a “gap” of time that they would have this power, he meant what he said.
            The 12 apostles also sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel – quite a seat of honor for mere men.

          • ✞Servant✞

            Your pope sits on a throne made by men. God sits on the throne of God. The facts of the matter is, the Vatican, is far from the Word of God. Jeremiah 23:9-40 speaks is a shadow of Roman Catholicism.
            Let me ask you Julie, why it pains you to pray only to God? Why you think His word is not sufficient? Why you must use doctrines of men over the Word of God, which is inspired and eternal? Why you follow a different Gospel, then that which was preached in the eternal word of God? I am praying for you. You must repent, from those sins… Placing the created in the realm/power/authority/glory of God, is idolatry & blasphemy. Do not let the blind lead you to darkness. It is all about YESHUA (JESUS). Everything!! Know Him!! Serve Him. Talk/Pray to Him. Kneel to Him. Love you, and it pains me to see you standing up for false prophets & teachers. Peace.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            How do you know that you don’t follow the doctrines of men, and are preaching another gospel? If you can’t see the necessity of ONE VOICE declaring, “Thus saith the Lord”, I don’t know what to say. Tens of thousands of denominations with differing doctrines is not at all what God wants. Your pastor too sits on a throne, they call it a pulpit.

          • Woody

            Yes, you got that first part right – have you been to confession lately? The only one can discern whether to “forgive sins, or “retain them” is to hear them. Thus a judgement can be rendered and I Have been in both situations, sometimes having my sins forgiven and other times – not [thank God the former was by far the grace I received. {I noticed you haven’t taken my quiz? Is there a reason it has been on this site many times for over 120 days, and only one person took it and he was correct.
            As far as “not adding or changing the Gospel, you are missing 6 books which Martin Luther had in his original and if you doubt me and really want to know–go to the library and pick up the OT Jesus quoted from and used-the Septuagint and count the number of books – you will find 72. {Somehow I don’t think you are up to this simple task, for you do not want to know Jesus’ most compelling statement “Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.”
            You also missed the many times Martin Luther tried to change Scripture, trying to conform IT to HIS erroneous beliefs rather than HE to IT (like booting out James, for example)

          • ✞Servant✞

            “Been to confession?” You act as though you have no idea what it is to be regenerated.

            “We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” Romans 6:2

            “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”1John 3:6

            “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” 1John 3:9

            “We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.” 1 John 2:3,4

            I do not follow man, I follow God. The Lord is the Head of My Church, not man. Eph 1:12, 5:23,24 , Col 1:18 1

            “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him (YESHUA) to be head over everything for the church” Ep1:12

            “For the husband is the head of the wife (Joseph is the Head of Mary) as CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH, his body, of which he is the Savior.” Ep5:23 (1Cor11:3)

            “Now as THE CHURCH SUBMITTS TO CHRIST, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”Eph5:24

            “And he (CHRIST) is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in EVERYTHING HE might have the supremacy.” Col1:18

            Being a Christian changes one.. I can forgive and do, any and all who sin against me. Heaven forbid, I sin against another, if I did then I would ask their forgiveness and the Lord’s. And REPENT…Not doing it again!!! But the Spirit convicts me when a negative/unclean thought comes into my head and I pray… I pray continuously. To God. For my God is Mighty!!

            Those whom the Lord does not know are those spending time necromancing the departed. I suggest you spend less time in a confession booth, less time praying to the departed and more time with the Lord, whom He alone can save!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Ongoing confession and repentance is part of regeneration in case you haven’t figured that one out.

          • Woody

            You are so right-he is using his own interpretation which gets one into trouble right away (like morphing into 37000 churches all claiming this is what Jesus “said.”
            Under Rabbinical law, ” granting keys, meant and does today grant “full authority.” They are looking at 28 AD with 2014 eyeglasses…using that–they may think Jesus drove a Volkswagon?

          • ✞Servant✞

            Yes, using own interpretation gets people in trouble. But even more are the false prophets, those who claim to speak in the name of the Lord, who substitute doctrines of men for the word of God. Which is what the Church in Rome has done along with others like Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses…See, the various churches which differ on End Time theology, do not differ on the Gospel, unlike the afore mentioned groups.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Sorry to inform you, but most of the doctrines that protestants believe in were formulated from councils of the Catholic Church. Do you believe in a Triune God? Thank the CC. Do you believe that Jesus is/was both fully human and fully God? Thank the CC.
            You have obviously never studied any history of the church. Do you think that your interpretations aren’t a substitute doctrine? You ought to think on that one hard

        • Woody

          Hey, are you asleep tonight, info babe? Did you like my picture which Our Lady gave me?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I saw it , awesome!

          • Woody

            Yah, I was up until 4:30 am trying to “re-post the Prots.”
            I had short one to do (in 4 parts of 10,000,000 words)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I guess I need to have my kid (20 yr old) show me how to cut and paste on here! I didn’t know it could be done, but it sure would save a lot of typing

          • Woody

            did you get him to show you cut and paste-I usually copy it from he site – take it into Word than work on it there, then re-copy and bring it back to this site, and re-paste it. So…oh, the Cleaning Lady is back with her, as the Irish say, Stooff!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Her, nope, not yet

          • Woody

            Place your pointer at the top of the text you want to copy. Drag it down and it will change color; when you have it all; right click on your mouse and it will give you a list within it is “cut” copy” or paste”; left click and select “copy”; then leave this site on, as you go and open a Micro-Soft Word file…place you cursor in the blank Word file; right click again and select “paste” and now you have it in word–“work with it like you do,” and when your comments are ready-do the opposite, i.e., drag, copy,
            return to Walid’s site which hopefully you left open, and left click again and paste…Julie – u done it (sounds like a lot but it takes only a few seconds for the operation to work…

            Try it – you’ll like it…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’m keeping your response as new so I can write it down, thanks. I guess I need to have some files already made so I can do that. Thanks

          • Woody

            Yah, a few practice sessions and ye shall know the truth. Good luck with Martin Luther Bill who thinks he is St Paul. If you ask him for SOURCE he will quit the site again like SickRent did for he will be overwhelmed by Truth.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            These guys are like Friday night muggers- go house to house taking what they want and leaving the rest behind.

          • Woody

            …So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you,
            I am the gate for the sheep.
            All who came before me are thieves and robbers,
            but the sheep did not listen to them.
            I am the gate.
            Whoever enters through me will be saved,
            and will come in and go out and find pasture.
            A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy;
            I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.”

            — From Today’s Gospel
            John 10

          • Woody

            Happy Mothers Day

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks

          • Woody

            MAY 11, 2014″Put your heart at His feet. It is the gift He loves most. ”
            — St. Elizabeth Ann Seton

      • Woody

        This is the same guy that agrees “self-interpretation” is wrong and the really lame statement that “the Bible interprets’s itself; I guess he has not notice that the Bible is Holy book that sits on a desk; or as St Paul told Timothy ” listen to the Church.” Which is to follow Jesus’ not a defrocked priest.

      • Woody

        Why do you use so many quotes since you already agreed with me, “self-interpretation” is meaningless? That’s why you are always begging people to believe you–why? The Bible has to be read in “toto” NT AND OT [not picking versus which you think might support you] and St. Paul says “Listen to the Church” (to Timothy) because that is where one gets the true interpretation (listening to Martin Luther means nothing since he is a “mere” defective man like the rest of us–it is – you have self-interpreted into 37,000 churches today when Jesus says “…that they be One..” and He only Founded ONE.

  • Woody

    Well you were named right sprouting this garbage.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      I just caught that! He has never responded to me, I asked him if the cat got his tongue.

      • Woody

        This is one sick dick; do you think he is out of grade school yet; if he is her flunked history; what is the “Roman Church;” and as Walid, an honest Protestant, who has already debunked this guy showing how this nonsense was made up the English church in the Middle Ages. At least he is wide enough to keep his garbage short.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          He is so far out, you should read my exchange with him on his interpretation of Revelation. He uses literal interpretations when he wants to, then flips to metaphorical when the verse is purely literal, he’s like a fish out of water flipping from side to side trying to breathe.

          • Woody

            I agree, and I am sure you will agree there are only a very few of “whacko” dudes on this site; how about the guy that is stuck on muslims and satan every 3 sentences. You know “SOURCE” please until he no longer uses that phrase because he always gets “SOUCE” and then loses the argument in “reduction ad absurdum”. Do you think they will ever reach the heights of “Dulia and Hyperdulia?”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    How can Rome be the Harlot when Rev 17 tells us that it is in a desert? verse 18 states ‘The woman whom you saw represents that great city which has sovereignty over the kings of the earth’. How do you make this verse fit? If the pope had sovereignty over the kings of the earth, then it fits that the whole earth would not abort, use birth control, etc. Chapter 18 lists all the items that this woman (city) imports, and that when this woman (city) falls, the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her because they no longer have a market to sell their goods. These merchants at sea have grown rich from the woman. All the items listed that this woman (city) imports match 100% the items that Saudi Arabia imports.

    • Jullie on this one point I totally agree ‘The Harlot is not the Catholic church!!!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        That’s one for the record books. But, I bet you used to believe it before Walid set all the prophecy buffs on their heads.

        • Well Yes I did …I let them put out there little spiel about the pope being the antichrist and his name equalling 666 and all of that other garbage…I gave it some thought without forming an opinon and then decided it was a crock of BS…

          Really its very difficult to know for sure who that city is that reigns over the kings of the earth…In a larger sense that would mean all of the nations on earth…In a smaller sense it would essentially mean just in the Middle East area…So I really do not know for sure however Dubai is definitely one of my top choices…Now if the UN ever moved there and it is a distinct possibility then that would convince me that is the city…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It’s Mecca. It has 7 mountains, and they rule the earth, and that’s were the Kaaba is. “No bow to Saudi Arabia, no oil.”

          • Well the seven mountains are not to be taken literally…It means seven kingdoms and the bible is clear on that however there are verses that certainly lend support to that thesis also there are verses that promote the idea that “the city” is actually three separate cities with it being split into three parts…as in the earthquake and all of the nations fell…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I brought out “7 mountains” to show how the anti-
            Catholics that determined Roman Catholic Church was the harlot (and none have apologized to the slander that I know of) was because of the reference to ‘7 mountains’. I know exactly what they mean.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You don’t see Mecca and the kingdom of Arabia fitting? If oil importing countries dare raise an eyebrow against them, the tap will be turned off.

          • I know Mecca is in the running too…All the Muslims pray to Mecca so you have a point especially considering by that time in Revelation 17 the church or the bride of Christ would have already been taken…I don’t know for sure…One thing Julie that I think you should be aware and this idea doesn’t have much popularity is: who is the Antichrist??? You may be shocked at what I am going to tell you but you must remember Satan deceives the whole world…There is a very good chance in fact probably better than good and almost completely certain that the antichrist has already appeared to many people on earth and in fact many unknowingly pray to her and honor her…The antichrist are the Mary apparitions…She is taking the place of Christ for many Christians…I mean look at how many Hail Mary’s there are in the Rosary…The Mother Mary Goddess appeals to every religion on earth including the Muslims…Satan will be able to deceive the most of God’s children through Mary…He is fully capable in appearing as her and already has…You need to seriously think about this…Remember he deceives meaning he appears as something that is holy but yet is not…Be very careful Julie who you decide to pray too!!! Jesus alone is our savior!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            In every apparition of Mary she advises that all the children follow and remain loyal to Her son and to the Church He founded. FYI-if you want to know who the anti-Christ is going to be, get out your Islamic studies material and ask yourself who the Mahdi is, that Mohammed said would have his spirit in him. Bingo! The Muslims are already calling for the Mahdi to come.
            Please study the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe – it is spot on to the vision John received in Revelation 12. She is clothed in sunrays, and a crescent moon is at her feet.

          • “In every apparition of Mary she advises that all the children follow and remain loyal to Her son and to the Church He founded.”
            Of course Julie…do you think it would be possible to deceive the masses any other way??? She talks about her Immaculate Heart…Whoa there …where did that come from certainly not from the bible…she also says pray the Rosary which contains 50+ Hail Marys compared to 6 Our Fathers…Do you think God is going to hear your prayer when you prayed to an idol 10 times more than to him??? Good luck with that !!! Many words she has spoken have not come true so what’s up with that???
            Antichrist Julie means in place of or to imitate or to replace…Do not be deceived Satan is a lot smarter than you know!!!
            FYI-if you want to know who the anti-Christ is going to be, get out your Islamic studies material and ask yourself who the Mahdi is, that Mohammed said would have his spirit in him. Bingo! The Muslims are already calling for the Mahdi to come.
            Please study the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe – it is spot on to the vision John received in Revelation 12. She is clothed in sunrays, and a crescent moon is at her feet.

          • nworder

            Jesus :-
            ” I have told you the truth but you do not believe me – but another will come in my name and him you will accept.”

            This was said to the Jews who are waiting on the Messiah but they appear to accept the anti christ. Could be the msulims accept the same one. But to sign the seven year covenant with the Jewish nation many rabbis say he has to be a jew.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why do you grab apiece here, a piece there, and not apply any logic or common sense to it before you stand on it? Your sources are all over the map: many rabbis, catholic prophets, 7th day Adventists, faux catholic websites, a bunch of hodge-podge..

          • nworder

            Why not use logic and debate rather than bluster

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I can isolate a verse from any document, Bible included, and make it appear to contradict the document I’m quoting. Likewise, anyone can allege a truth using a partial quote, but that doesn’t make it the truth. It’s called a half-truth.
            You don’t use full quotes, do not give context, then try to make a point with it. Anybody can write a book using partial quotes, and sell its info as full fact, but that in and of itself does not provide it credible.

          • shoebat

            Albeit, where did you get this idea “The Mother Mary Goddess appeals to every religion on earth including the Muslims”. There is not a shred of evidence to prove such a point, that Muslims honor Mary except a few words in the Quran which has nothing to do with venerating Mary. Secondly, Antichrist is a man “He will …” no where in the Bible we see “She will” establish herself in the Temple of God …

            The whore is a city not a person or an apparition.

          • Walid: Mary appears 34 times in the Koran. Also many Muslims name their children Mary in honor of her. Also many visit the Mary shines dotted around the world especially Fatima…And why if they do not honor her do they mention her son Jesus as the “Son of Mary.” Hardly a traditional way of referring to a son in the Muslim world.
            Others include: She is the model of all believers because of her absolute faith and perfect ‘submission’ to the will of God
            As far as the Antichrist goes in the bible it says there are many antichrists so yes you may be right insofar as what the bible is referring too however I do not believe the many apparitions that have appeared are from the true Mary but instead Satan appearing as Mary
            1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

        • nworder

          It is possible that Rome is the religious harlot and america the babylon beast of wealth and trade. Since the catholic prophets themselves said that rome would fall from the faith. Besides since the great apostasy is prophesied it must involve all of the christian churches except for the elect – the tiny flock – so it does not go by the numbers in a church.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If your analogy that Rome is the harlot, and the beast is America, is right, then America is going to destroy Rome. What Catholic “prophets’ said that Rome would fall from the faith? It’s amazing that you and other Catholic naysayers believe in a “Catholic prophet” that speaks against the church. You are probably taking to heart people like Bart Brewer and others like him that were ex-communicated from the church. Maybe the ‘elect’ are the Catholics who adhere to the churchs’ teachings.

          • nworder

            There are more – but here is one :-

            “Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist … The Church will be in eclipse…”
            -Words of Our Lady of LaSalette to Melanie Mathieu 1846 A.D. [A Church Approved Apparition]

            But the modern day catholics do not seem to adhere to past teachings

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Quit playing hopscotch, go back to the topic- you said Rome is the harlot, and American the beast. I showed you the conclusion of your bad logic, so you ignore it and go on to some other crap. Can I surmise that you think you are in that “tiny flock”?

          • nworder

            Cant see the harlot being obviously anti christ religions
            but more of a covert type of anti christ.

            “So when we come to the “woman” of Revelation 17, it should be very obvious that—letting the Bible interpret its own symbols—this woman is indeed a church. However, this church, “sitting on a scarlet beast” (v. 3) is truly a spiritual “harlot.”

            For she has entered into adulterous alliances with the leaders and kings of this world (v. 2). And the inhabitants of the earth are made spiritually “drunk” because of her false teachings. She is a “mother” church—giving birth to spiritual “harlots” (v. 5). And, as indicated, she deals in “mysteries,” as did the ancient pagan religions before her.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The harlot is a covert type of anti-Christ? I can see why you are confused because you almost confuse me. Why don’t you take your advice and let the Bible interpret it for you? Then study Mohammed, find out what area of the world Islam started in, and you’ll figure the rest out.

          • shoebat

            The “harlot” is a “mother church”? Where does it say that in the Bible? There is nothing in the Bible that portrays the harlot as a church, nothing. You just added to Scripture what Scripture doesn’t say. And to shatter your theory from the Bible itself, you need to answer:

            Jeremiah tells us that this future Babylon will be by the Red Sea: “The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea” (Jeremiah 49:21).

            Is Rome, literal Babylon, or America situated on the Red Sea?

            The Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the Last-Days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel 25 “Edom” stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia)” (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.

            The Harlot of Babylon is described as being in a literal desert location: “Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman (a prostitute) sitting on a scarlet beast” (Revelation 17:3). It then should be of no surprise that Jesus warned us that before He comes, religious imposters will come out of the desert: “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out” (Matthew 24:26). Many commentators overlook this literal description of the Harlot.

            Isolating Scripture is the work of heretics, not Christians. I am not suggesting that you are heretic, but you need to be careful not to fall into the ways heretics do things.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’re half a continent off. Try again. It said France would lose the faith, and that the Pope would be persecuted. You are referring to letter written 28 yrs later and not written by the girl.

          • nworder

            It seems to say Rome will lose the faith ?? So are you saying all reports on this are forgeries ??

            “They [the faithful] must pray above all for the Church of Darkness to leave Rome.” -Prophetic Vision of Venerable Anna-Katrina Emmerick August 25, 1820 A.D., Augustinian Nun, Stigmatist

            “Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” -St. Athanasius

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No, the original letter did not. You are quoting one written 28 yrs after the original was written. The original letter said 3/4 of France would lose the faith.
            Do any of these prophecies state or imply to leave the church? They imply the opposite.

    • Carl Dick

      I am sure I wrote an answer to your query, but for some reason it was not registered. I will try again.

      First of all, we must remember that Revelations is full of allegoric language. Thus, the woman is said to be that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (in John’s time Rome was the only city that reigned over the kings of the earth); beasts refers to empires (probably the Ottoman, which was and presently is not, and is to be revived); horns refers to kings; heads are mountains; waters refer to people and the Lamb is Christ, etc.

      The wilderness or desert may refer to the world consisting of worldly men which is often in the prophecies of the Old Testament called a wilderness. Or that a wilderness is a solitary place, and fit for retirement and meditation; and where John might, without any interruption, take a full view of what was to follow.

      A whore [in this passage] is one that is married, and has been false to her husband’s bed, has forsaken the guide of her youth, and broken the covenant of God. The Church is said to be the bride of Christ; He is our Husband. The fornicators can only be those in the Church; Saudi Arabia has never been in the Church.

      Can one doubt the influence that Rome has over a sizable portion of the inhabitants of the earth? The vision in Chapter 18 describes the wealth and merchandise of Rome, all which is to be suddenly lost (Rev_18:12, Rev_18:13), and lost irrecoverably (Rev_18:14).

      The merchandise mentioned are to be understood metaphorically; not necessarily literally. The Roman Church has been selling us a bill of goods. Example: That Mary is now co-redeemer along with Christ. But Acts 4:12 expressly states: “Neither is there salvation IN ANY OTHER: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” And Jesus Himself said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life NO MAN cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.”

      But all this is still future. It is most interesting that chapter 18:4 advises God’s people to “come out of her, my people.” This should be proof enough that this prophecy is about the Christian Church; that is where God’s people are to be found. I honestly believe that many true believers are in the Roman Church and I don’t doubt that you are one of them.

      Much more can be said on this topic, but I will end it here. I don’t write to be confrontational; only to express my opinion. God bless.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        A whore, in this passage – Why do you make a distinction for just this passage. First off, every human being on earth is a child of God and owes him worship, that fits with the admonition to come out of her, he is speaking to His children. You seem to be picking and choosing how you interpret based on making it fit a preconceived notion. Verse 10 read with correct understanding reveals that the one that “is” is Rome, which numbers Rome as the 6th empire. The 7th will be the empire that follows Rome, which is the Ottoman empire, and the 8th is one of the 7, ‘the beast that existed once, but exists no longer, so the seventh nor the eighth CAN be Rome. The other clue is “the world will be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer.” How can this be the Church of Rome, when it has existed since the very beginning? Further, the list of items this whore imports are exactly to a T what Saudi Arabia imports. It’s odd that you choose to decide that this one verse is metaphorical because you have to, or else Mecca is proven to be the great city, and that doesn’t fit your theory. No King or kingdom on earth lives in wealth like Saudi Arabia. Every Catholic priest, hence, any bishop, cardinal, or pope, take a vow of poverty. The Vatican belongs to the church, more than I can say for most modern day “non-denominational” churches, or people like Jan & Paul Crouch that live in filthy wealth that is theirs. Secondly, mountains are kingdoms. That’s part of the problem you are having in interpretating this prophecy.
        Also, where in this verse makes any illusion that these people were ever in his covenant? All people are God’s people, but not all people are in his covenant.
        Verse 18: “The kings (leaders of countries) of the earth who had intercourse with her in their wantonness will weep and mourn for her”. Name one king of the earth that would weep and mourn if the Catholic Church was destroyed, they would leap for joy. If you will hearken back to Ishmael, God promised Abraham he would make him a ‘great’ nation. 12 ‘chieftains” aka, warriors, would come from him. Ishmael was also to be “a wild ass of a man”, would always live next to his brother fighting. Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael.
        For you information, every Catholic knows that Jesus and Jesus Christ is THE REDEEMER OF MANKIND. Do you ever “mediate” for other people, or ask friends to ‘mediate’ on your behalf? Anybody who intercedes is aptly called a co-mediatrix whether you will admit it or not.
        Most of the problem you are having with interpreting the prophecies in the Book of Revelation is because you spend no time studying in the Old Testament. All the allegories in Revelation are described in the OT prophetic books. Who do you think the Lion is? The Leopard? The Bear? You probably don’t have a clue or you couldn’t interpret chapters 17 & 18 the way you have. The OT books also tell you the location of this Babylon that “is fallen is fallen”. I’m sorry, but you are way off the mark.

        • shoebat

          Funny you mention Paul Crouch. I met the man and was on their TV and the luxury is just overwhelming. All this luxury by claiming to talk about a man who rode on a donkey. Most of these tele evangelists are all about money and luxury.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I had to mention them! This guy has to grab at straws to prove his theory, so I just threw it back in his lap. You are right, they are about money and luxury, but then, so are their followers! From my perspective, today’s Christians use God like an ATM machine. I heard John Hagee say to his church “and you will have that nice house in a nice community, new cars in your driveway, and your kids in the best universities’. I had to throw up. Jesus’ words tells me that whatever I do on earth lays up treasure in heaven, not on earth.

      • shoebat

        “First of all, we must remember that Revelations is full of allegoric language.”

        Really?

        “Thus, the woman is said to be that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (in John’s time Rome was the only city that reigned over the kings of the earth)”

        Here is how your argument is shattered. You insist that “reigns” to be regarding a city in John’s time since reigns is present participle?

        Ok, then please explain:

        “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

        “He gathered”, is not even present, but past and Armageddon hasn’t even started yet.

        Such an argument would be absurd.

        Plus Hermeneutics tells us that we must interpret Scripture with Scripture. “Babylon is fallen is fallen” is found in Isaiah 21, and there it says “Arabia” and not “Rome”.

        “beasts refers to empires (probably the Ottoman, which was and presently is not, and is to be revived); horns refers to kings; heads are mountains; waters refer to people and the Lamb is Christ, etc.”

        Correct, and you presume the Ottoman will bow towards Rome or Arabia?

        “The wilderness or desert may refer to the world consisting of worldly men which is often in the prophecies of the Old Testament called a wilderness.”

        You switched up allegory to literal and literal to allegory. Woman is allegory, desert is NOT. Even Jesus says “when they tell you here he is in the desert do not believe it …”

        “A whore [in this passage] is one that is married, and has been false to her husband’s bed,”

        False, many husbands sleep with whores and are not married to them. A whore is a whore. This twist in interpretation is simply used for a tactic to make Vatican fit.

        Sure, you can find a wife that became a whore, but there is absolutely no support for this in Revelation regarding the city. This woman was a whore. Period.

        I can make anything fit if I use such logic.

        “Can one doubt the influence that Rome has over a sizable portion of the inhabitants of the earth?”

        Yes, one can doubt. I doubt.

        You know why? Because you have not proved it.

        For your theory to fit, the Catholics in Italy better institute beheading. Remember, the beast beheads all who refuse to bow.

        “The vision in Chapter 18 describes the wealth and merchandise of Rome, all which is to be suddenly lost (Rev_18:12, Rev_18:13), and lost irrecoverably (Rev_18:14).”

        No, the noise of this city’s destruction is heard at the “Red Sea”, study Jeremiah. Is Rome by the Red Sea?

        “The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was
        heard in the Red sea” (Jeremiah 49:21).

        Is Rome, literal Babylon, or America situated on the Red Sea? The Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the Last-Days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any
        map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel
        25 “Edom” stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia)” (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.

        Notice the description of her destruction: “‘As Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown, along with their neighboring towns,’ says the LORD, ‘so no one will live there; no man will
        dwell in it,’” ( Jeremiah 49:18). How was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? Was it not fire that rained down from heaven? Was ancient Edom ever completely destroyed like this in
        history? Jeremiah 49 is ultimately speaking of the Last-Day’s judgment of Mystery Babylon that is associated with Edom. Throughout the Bible, only Mystery Babylon is also described
        as being completely and utterly destroyed in this same way. Beyond this, the passage specifies that the region we are dealing with contains the cities of Teman and Dedan which are
        nowhere near Iraq, or ancient Babylon.

        “The merchandise mentioned are to be understood metaphorically; not necessarily literally.”

        You can’t allegorize on a whim, for if you do, then the city is not even a city.

        “The Roman Church has been selling us a bill of goods. Example: That Mary is now co-redeemer along with Christ. But Acts 4:12 expressly states: “Neither is there salvation IN ANY OTHER: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” And Jesus Himself said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life NO MAN cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.”

        Than do not go to your pastor and ask him to pray for you. After all, no one cometh to the Father but by Jesus.

        You stated: “come out of her, my people. This should be proof enough that this prophecy is about the Christian Church; that is where God’s people are to be found.”

        No. Come out of her my people is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in which the city will have a few Christians.

        Remember the Gulf War and how all Christians left Saudi Arabia?

        “I honestly believe that many true believers are in the Roman Church and I don’t doubt that you are one of them.”

        And there is where you are cornered, are you saying that a Catholic who according to you “pray to Mary” is Christian?

        “Much more can be said on this topic, but I will end it here.”

        But you haven’t said much. All you said was an interpretation without real inductive study.

    • nworder

      There is a lot of bible verses that point to new york as that great city.

      “Google ” Is New York Babylon ?” for some interesting websites that point to new york and america going right through scripture OT and NT.

      The trade passing through NY dwarfs the rest of the world – this includes financial and hard goods. Rome does not do much trade and is land locked. Saudi is not trading like america.

      ps – could not post until now – disqus was not loading.

      • shoebat

        Stop referring to Google as reference and do some homework. No where does the Bible mention New York. My question to you is this; what cities and nations DOES the Bible mentions? Ever look the Bible up instead of looking up Google search engine for answers?

        • nworder

          Walid I found your site on google . Google is like a modern library – 1000 times quicker than going to the local library.
          Rather than copy these scriptures and make a incredibly long blog I referred to google instead. It is the information and facts which are important not the word google or the fact it is a modern device – eg the early church writings are amazing when you use google. You would have to spend weeks in a library if not years to get the information you are looking for with a mouse click.

          Rome does not trade like NY and america. It is still the most powerful military nation by far and a young nation which fits many prophecies – especially the one about the captains of the sea watching the smoke rise – the container ships queue up outside NY in a long line. This could not happen in Rome, Jerusalem or ancient Babylon.

          Although Peter did say he was “writing from Babylon….”

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You are really far off. Study the OT prophets, they tell us where this location is, and it’s not NYC. Look at the list of goods the merchants of the earth bring to her: gold, silver, pearls, linens, wood, bronze, iron, spices, wheat, and slaves. Now ask yourself if NYC imports those items. The answer is no. Look at Saudi Arabia and you will find that they import everything on the list. The one item not on the list of imports for this city is OIL. That’s because they have more oil than anywhere in the world. You can figure the rest out from that clue alone.

        • nworder

          True – but the articles could be symbolic of trade in general.
          The saudis are not a major trading country and Russia has the same amount of oil. Saudi is a small country as population goes and dont dominate the world with weaponry like america

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You are trying really hard to ignore the truth. There are 27 specific items, that match 100% with Saudi Arabia, and you want to make this “symbolic of trade”?. Every country has trade, so how would that help solve the mystery?. “They don’t dominate with weapons”? Where do weapons enter the equation?

          • nworder

            Rather than post lengthy blogs – it is better to google what I said about prophecy on america. Prophecies that allude to the world’s most powerful nation – using their power to dominate the world , a new nation made up of diverse immigrants. This is not really saudi arabia.
            There are also websites refuting the above as well so you can see both sides of interpretation . There is also the UN located in america with its strange masonic temple.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            For the last 40 years, prophecy gurus preached their “End Times Plans” and they all fell flat on their faces. If you think the Masons are more powerful than Islam, you need to drink a few cups of coffee and wake up.

          • nworder

            Prophecy is a major part of the Bible and the CC was full of prophets from day one with many false prophecies that never came true.
            Masons are in all religions all over the world :-

            “After a man passes through the “Blue Lodge” or the first 3 degrees of Masonry and has achieved the status of Master Mason he can petition to become a member of the Shrine or the “Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine.” Until 2000, one had to complete the Scottish Rite or York Rite degrees of Masonry to be eligible for Shrine membership, but now any Master Mason can join.

            One of the most distinguishing marks of a Shriner is the Fez hat that he wears. So named after the city of Fez, Morocco…which by the way has been the site of numerous documented massacres of both Jews and Christians by various Muslim conquerors. The Fez is a distinctly Muslim symbol and, at least indirectly, celebrates the Muslim conquest of the area.

            The emblem found on the fez is that of Muslim origin. It contains the Arabic pagan god symbols of the Crescent Moon and Star, orinally the symbol of the Ottomon Empire, now an international symbol of Islam. The symbols are hung under a “scimitar” or an Arabic sword of war. This is the sword that has killed the “infidels” down through the ages under Muslim conquest.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Enumerate the ‘many false prophecies’ that never came true and we will look at them. Do you see how you use a broad brush, mention nothing specific, and then just let it hang?
            I think every adult alive knows about the Masons, we don’t need a refresher course.
            Since you seem to be replete with the history of the Masons, can you tell us if they existed in 632 AD? I wonder what ‘sword’ Mohammed was using then.

          • nworder

            “The smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God . . . . The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church EVEN TO ITS SUMMIT . . . into the HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE CHURCH.”Pope Paul VI, June 29, 1972; October 13, 1977

            Masonry is not new it dates back to Babylon and Egypt eg it is the cult of Osiris

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Was he including himself? I’ve said it before, Satan will always try to topple the Church, He’s done it since the beginnings of the church, Saul himself was foremost with the smoke of Satan, yet he was converted.

  • dave_aka_lambsev

    Someone once said the past is ashes. Where ever the blame may be properly laid is for the Almighty to say. We who receive Jesus as Savior and Lord must forgive each other, our neighbors and even those we blame and count as enemies. I have for years been very hard on the Roman Catholic Church. There doctris are not Biblical and their history is a bloody history. If we ALL understood and reverenced the blood of the Savior Jesus, none of us would ever spill the blood of another. The past we cannot change. The present we must live. The future we will one day count as History.
    Galatians 5 (ASV)
    13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.
    14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,
    21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.
    25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.
    26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Please name the doctrines that, according to you, are unbiblical so I can respond. I hope you didn’t just make an idle comment with the intent to smear a Church. Also, provide me a list of your doctrines, and we will critique each others doctrines, should be interesting.
      Secondly, without the so-called “bloody history”, you sir, would be a Muslim. Have you likewise labeled the biblical Israel “Bloody”?
      Hoping you aren’t prejudiced.

  • Mark Roberts

    The article stated “The Paulicians and the Albigenses were purely heretics. Considering this
    whole conundrum from our evangelical mindset, how could killing these
    be considered “drinking the blood of the saints”?” If being a heretic rules out one being a martyr, then most of Christianity’s martyrs, including modern day ones murdered by Islamists, should be ruled out, if you want to be even-handed. The Catholic Church’s killing of those they considered heretics was murder, plain and simple. One glaring heresy of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, is that
    they teach that the law of Mosheh has been nailed to the cross and that
    we no longer have to keep it. Yahushua made it clear that we do have
    to keep the law of Mosheh (Torah). In Mattithyahu (aka Matthew) 5 :17-19,
    Yahushua says, ““Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the
    Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to
    you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle
    shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then,
    breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be
    called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches
    them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.” These
    words of Yahushua indicate that most of Christianity, both Catholic and
    Protestant, is apostate and heretical.

    • Mark…May God bestow his most wonderful and precious blessings on you and those close to you…I could not have said it better myself..You are someone I would lay my life down for for you are my friend through our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ!!!

      • Mark Roberts

        Thanks for those kind words, albeit.

  • Ted Sones

    It is a forgotten Biblical instruction that Satan is the ruler of this earth and conquers people through the air waves. It is no wonder that he has infiltrated the churches of the world causing confusion and discern in these last days while he can work his devious methods. Those people who are praying to dead popes and being healed of their physical ailments is just one example of Satan’s work here on earth. And the Roman Catholic Church considers these miracles to Saint Hood to the two dead popes. Satan must be chuckling to himself!

    • Only God knows who the saints are because only God knows the heart…The Catholic church is continuing this tradition because it is good for business and helps to decieve the masses into thinking only their church is the way to everlasting life…Houston we have a problem!!!

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Good for business? How? Nice phrase-stealing there. Incorruptible bodies of saints, you can’t stand it, some over a thousand years ago, still perfectly soft to touch, no decay, one bled when a doctor cut into a finger….Jealous?

        • Lying signs and wonders…Yes Julie it is very good for business and the Catholic Church along with most other mainstream churches are a business… Don’t tell me you swallowed that lie too hook, line, and sinker …What gives them that right to determine who is a saint??? Where in the bible does it say that the Catholic Church can determine who is a saint and who isn’t???And why are all of the so called saint’s Catholics??? It is enough to royally make my blood boil!!!

          • shoebat

            If I was around when Jesus was here and someone ran to me and said “Jesus healed a blind man, yes, go check it out, he is their at the pool of Siloam”, I would have two choices; tell the man that Jesus is doing the works of the devil, or go and check it out and see. The first choice will end me in hell, the second might end me in heaven if and when I examined and believed.

            How do we know if something is true or not true? We investigate it. You know what? I will go and investigate what Julie is talking about. What do I have to loose? Can satan keep a body incorruptible? No. Satan destroys and doesn’t build.

            I spent years examining the Shroud of Turin to only find it is the most amazing archeological relic in history. Have you examined it? Or is that too made by Satan? If it was made by Satan, then the first believers were all deceived, for the Shroud was in their possession from time immemorial.

          • I spent years examining the Shroud of Turin to only find it is the most amazing archeological relic in history.
            It may be…But still is it more important than the Word of God??? I doubt it was made by Satan because it is a physical object and not an apparition such as all of the apparitions of supposedly Mary…those I do not believe were Mary but of Satan…Jesus very clearly stated that no signs would be given except the sign of Jonah…I’m still trying to figure out that one…So signs such as blood coming out of a dead person or self preservation I would very seriously question because there are motives of an advancement of a particular religion involved… Walid when we believe in such things it is a form of mysticism and we should avoid anything that even comes close to that and stay focused on understanding and loving God’s word written in the bible..

          • shoebat

            First of all, when Jesus talked about the sign of Jonah He was referring to His death and ressurection and He wasn’t giving a blanket statement that there will be no miracles. You are a miracle. Glad that you appreciate the Shroud. Why then would Jesus choose to have an image of his face? I had thought that images were bad. Secondly, I had thought in this country we always approach an issue as innocent until proven guilty, yet you seem to approach issues as guilty without proving ny innocence. I tend to see things like this “I don’t know, I will examine, I will research …”. Yet you haven’t answered the question with any research, just an opinion. Is this how we conduct a dialogue? I see on this blog tons of remarks with so few who go out of their comfort zone to examine claims.

          • What I would like to know is who are these saints Julie is talking about that are over a 1000 years old whose finger still bleeds and whose body is soft to the touch…I mean come on…what’s the point…Jesus said: Happy are those who do not see but yet still believe…So this saint is being specially preserved by God for those of us that need physical proof that there is a God??? I am not buying it and it speaks less of you to think that there might be something to it…

            “I had thought that images were bad.”
            Only if you worship them

            “Secondly, I had thought in this country we always approach an issue as innocent until proven guilty, yet you seem to approach issues as guilty without proving any innocence.”

            Try the IRS or child social services and several others…One simple accusation and you are in the position of proving your innocence…

            Walid if you do not believe that mysticism is not rampant in the Catholic Church then I have some ocean front property in North Dakota to sell you!!!

          • “Glad that you appreciate the Shroud. Why then would Jesus choose to have an image of his face?”

            Walid…the shroud may have been used around the time of Jesus however I have heard that it very well may not have been Jesus…In fact long hair would have been frowned upon during those days which the shroud shows the man as having. Also Jesus was around 40 years of age or less when he died…depends if you start counting at conception or birth…In Genesis it was counted from conception from Adam to Joseph…This man appears much older…so I seriously question the validity of that shroud as the one Jesus was wrapped in…It does however make for a lot of money making tours or what have you…

            “I had thought that images were bad.”

            Walid…they are only bad if you pray consciously or subconsciously to them…better still not to have them in churches to avoid that temptation…

            “Secondly, I had thought in this country we always approach an issue as innocent until proven guilty, yet you seem to approach issues as guilty without proving any innocence.”

            Walid…Not with the IRS or social services and a few others…All it takes is a simple accusation whether made by a minor or an adult and you have to prove your innocence

            In closing mysticism is rampant in the Catholic church with there man made traditions believing in apparitions holding services to the saints believing in the preservation of Godly men and on and on…walk away from that heresy Walid and have no part in it…

          • Hi Walid. Catholics may wish to believe this to be so, however, the Shroud of Turin has been “questionable” for the following reasons.
            1.) It appears to be a one-piece cloth covering the front of a body that is depicted to be that of Jesus. Has there been another part of that cloth that shows the back with the bloodied stripe marks of the whippings He received?
            2.) The facial appearance is pretty well intact on the shroud image while Isaiah 52: 13-15 states that the Suffering Servant was beaten and bloodied, so disfigured that one would scarcely know that he was a person.
            3.) Isaiah 50:6 states, ” I gave my back to those who strike Me. And my cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.
            4.) The New Testament states that there were burial “cloths” (not cloth) used in the wrapping of Jesus’ body. In the Jewish custom, the head is wrapped separately – apart from the body.
            Conclusion: The image on the Shroud of Turin and the shroud in and of itself do not conform to what would be the facial appearance of a severely beaten man nor the true burial cloths of a head wrap and body wrap as used in Jewish custom.

          • shoebat

            Mike,

            When someone says that the Shroud is “questionable” before he has made a thorough and full examination, I won’t argue, but I will simply help them build more doubt.

            It seems that you are now in the position I was in two decades ago which means you started doing some homework. But I did not stop, I continued my research. If you decide to do the same, by the time you research further, your doubts will be put to rest, especially after you discover the hundreds of reasons why the Shroud seems authentic.

            Here is why I think you did not do a full investigation.

            For example, your argument that the New Testament says that there were burial “cloths”.

            Indeed, once you examine another piece “The Mandilion/Mandiliyon” (which is the face covering), that with the shroud becomes “cloths”.

            The blood stains on the Mandilion matches perfectly with the face on the Shroud of Turin. This was scientifically examined and proven beyond doubt. This alone debunks all the documentaries that came out trying to disprove it.

            You first have to go through a journey of doubt, perhaps see a few documentaries that accuses the Shroud of being made by Leonardo Davinci. Here is a six part series that try to debunk it:

            This is made by liberals, of course. But once you watch this, perhaps you can either be falsely convinced or perhaps you might continue and watch the other side of the argument to see how this assumption that Leonardo DaVinci made the Shroud was debunked a thousand times over. Happy seeking.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They are the head of the Church and can declare who the saints of our church are, your church can do the same if they please. In case you didn’t know, there is quite an elaborate investigation into their lives before they are canonized.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If you want a clue as to the lying signs and wonder the anti-Christ will perform, recall what Pharaoh’s sorcerers and magicians could do. Not saying that it’s a definitive list, but it is useful pattern. Satan’s greatest deception is in lying.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Aren’t you the wise one! As I remember, God is the only source of healing and restoration of life. We don’t leave the Body of Christ because our flesh bodies have ceased, our souls live on. Saints are still members of the Body of Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the Living! Saints live on, my friend, more alive than we are. Take a read of the Book of Revelations, “the souls of those who had been slaughtered cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and AVENGE OUR BLOOD…” Now tell me that ‘dead’ people aren’t LIVING! The bones of Elisha brought a man back to life. Joseph instructed his family to carry his bones after he died. Satan can’t heal or restore life, only God. You ought to ponder why Satan disputed with Michael the Archangel over the bones of Moses. Shame on you.

      • Ted Sones

        Cracker box- it seems you have an answer for everything however you HAVE MISSED THE POINT! By the way; what is your interpretation of the soul ?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Why don’t you stay on topic? Do you honestly believe that Satan has power to created or restore life? What about the martyrs under the altar crying out to God for vengeance? Seems like they know what’s going on down below. Remember who was transfigured with Jesus? Were they “dead’, or alive?

        • shoebat

          Would like to be called “Cracker box”? And what is wrong with having answers? Doesn’t Scripture say “be ready to give an answer for the faith …”?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He fits the MO of all the naysayers when part of their theories are shown wrong: Take your pick of what they do.
            1. Bolt out of the conversation
            2. Insult and apply a label
            3. Never address the subject.
            4. Change the subject.
            He tells me I don’t know the Bible. That monkey is on his back.

          • shoebat

            I am observing this phenomenon watching these dialogues here, and it speaks volumes as to who has stamina and who allows the bird to snatch away the seed. It is exactly what you are observing. They speak Scripture gymnastically while they do not obey it, for it says to “give an answer to the faith …”.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Every I time I bring scripture to bear for my belief and faith, I’m accused of being cocky and arrogant.

          • shoebat

            Blessed are you when they falsely accuse you …

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Jesus was falsely accused too, I guess I’m in good company.

      • Ted Sones

        What is shameful is that you do not know your Bible. Blow the dust off it and start reading the Book of Revelation for these last days.

        • shoebat

          And since you know the Bible Mr. Ted Sones, why not answer her biblical questions? The Bible says to be ready and give an answer. She asked, but what did you do except pass insults? You are a guest and so is she on my blog, so please either dialogue or be respectful on my blog. Fair enough?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Which part do you disagree with? The martyrs under the altar crying out to God? In your scenario, this can’t happen. And Moses bones? Maybe you have a bad translation or are short some few chapters and verses. As for me, I choose to read the ENTIRE BIBLE for ALL days. Good luck with staying in Revelations. People have been made fools over the last hundreds years with the several, now debunked, slanderous interpretations. No prophecy of scripture is for private interpretation. Is this verse missing too?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          What part do you dispute? That the bones of Elisha still full of God’s power brought a man back to life? Or do you dispute that slaughtered martyrs are crying out to God? Or that Satan disputed with Michael over Moses’ bones? What Bible do you read. And thanks for the advice, but I’ll stick with reading the ENTIRE bible, for ALL DAYS, end days or otherwise

      • Could it be that the ones who were slaughtered were already part of the bride of Christ when he comes the first time Julie???…No one really knows where in Revelation that takes place

        • shoebat

          ” when he comes the first time Julie???”

          When He comes the first time?

          • Okay Walid…Your holding me on a pretty tight leash don’t you think??? She knows what I mean…Christ will return for his bride…The church who follows his statutes and commandments…Its the second time …I got it…However his feet do not touch the earth..

          • Registered

            The day of the Lord. Christ comes back in the same place and his feet touch the earth.
            Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I noticed that after I closed my post. He’s stuck on his theories.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          These souls who have been slaughtered, are crying out from under the altar and are petitioning God to avenge their blood. In your scenario, they are dead, dead. Not so according to the Bible. “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. When the crowds heard this, they were ASTONISHED at His teaching.’

  • And then you go ahead and defile your own temple by celebrating the Catholic pagan Holy days such as Christmas, Easter, Halloweeen and Sunday worship etc etc etc…

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Does your church have any scientifically verified miracles of consecrated Bread changing to Heart muscle tissue , type AB blood, same as the blood on the shroud of Turin? Or consecrated wine that changed to blood? This particular miracle, and there are others, is over 1300 yrs old, and the “flesh”, heart tissue, and the blood are still intact, have not decayed or rotted. Look at the incorruptible bodies of “Saints” the Church possesses. I know you won’t because you have lockjaw of the brain and don’t want anything to get it out of park.

      • 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
        8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
        John 20:29
        29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Is there a point in all this?

          • Was it over your head in understanding it???

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Not at all, it’s nothing new.

      • ✞Servant✞

        It’s a commandment not to ever ingest blood. The miracle appears to be of demons. God never changes. The Matzah, (bread) which Christ claimed was Him was, ONE of THREE in the Matzah Tosh, the center Matzah. It is broken in half. One half placed back with the other two Matzah, in the center compartment of the Single Matzah Tosh, holding the 3, and the other half is wrapped in linen and buried, until the end of the Seder, which it is found, and then broken up among family & friends & guests in remembrance of the redeeming blood of the lamb, on the night of Passover, in Egypt.. God is first and alone, demons perform miracles to deceive. Elohim doesn’t share His glory & majesty, He IS. Peace.

        • shoebat

          When Jesus performed miracles, they said the same thing you said, that it was from demons. Now, when someone says something to me I never heard or investigated, I do not pass judgments as you just did, I examine the facts. If what Julie says is true, then demons cannot create life. People questioned the Shroud of Turin to only later find out it was true.

          • ✞Servant✞

            I was talking about the miracle which she said, the wafer, that Catholics are told to eat, turned into a beating heart, sounded demonic. Does it not? I never accused anyone of being demon possessed, as they did to Jesus. Abstaining from blood remains a commandment- Acts 15:20.

          • shoebat

            Since you asked, here is a clip on the “beating heart”, I looked at it, the forenzic scientist who examined it is reputable and I could not find any formidable refutation for it. If you do, I would like to examine it. But here is the link:

          • ✞Servant✞

            Btw~ I am just hearing about this literal flesh, doctrine, from Julie. Question everything, is good, yes? I think the Shroud of Turin is wonderful. That is something that lines up with scripture as Jesus was covered in nearly 100 lbs of herbs & aloes and wrapped in linen. John 19:38-40.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          The prohibition against drinking blood is the very reason the Jews quarreled amongst themselves “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus responds with a DOUBLE Amen, and tells them that unless they ear his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. Then the disciples of Jesus declared “This is a hard saying, who can accept it? Their reaction is proof that they understood him to be speaking literally. He said “Does this shock you? (yes it did). Many disciples no longer followed him. One of the saddest verses in the Bible. “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father.”
          In the Passover meal, did they have to eat the flesh of the lamb?

          • ✞Servant✞

            Read what he says a few verses later, “It is the SPIRIT that gives life; THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.” John 6:63.

            Do you think His Apostles literally took bites out of His flesh?? He was not talking cannibalism. He is the Word we must consume, not doctrines of men that’s the Talmud & such, but we must consume all that is Him (figuratively) for He is Life.

            Deut 8:3 “He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, TO TEACH YOU THAT MAN DOES NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.” (YHVH) Which Yeshua claimed to be.

            Hence, The Bread of Life. Word of God… Seems you have difficulty understanding the Word, because of doctrines of men or lack of seeking truth in it. : I’m going to pray that you seek Him & wholeheartedly desire to understand & hear Him, alone, even if you have to admit you were wrong & turn a new path. 🙂

            The Jews were also quarrelling because Jesus said he was bread that came down from heaven. (Obviously they couldn’t discern properly).

            Jews argued amongst themselves when He said He would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days too, because they lacked discernment.

            “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy THIS temple, (at the temple) and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2; Matthew 26-27; Mark 14;15)

            Some Catholics think Petros (movable small rock) is the Petra ROCK (immovable Rock) which is the LORD- RE: Matthew 16.. A few verses later The ROCK (The LORD/PETRA) says to Peter (little rock)~“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

            You probably confuse this one too “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.” 1 Corinthians 3:2

            Why does the Lord speak in parables? He said “This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see;
            though hearing, they do not hear or understand”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you think Jesus was saying HIS FLESH is of no avail? If that’s your interpretation, you just denied the reason for the incarnation, ergo, the entire gospel. Without HIS FLESH, we have no salvation or resurrection. The term used “the flesh” “sarx” is later used in the same gospel book in John 8:15 “You judge according to ‘the flesh”. “The flesh” is our carnal reasoning and understanding. We have to have ‘the spirit” to understand things beyond our carnal minds. This same spirit, is what gives life, and resurrection, that is His point and why He asked them “what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending where He was before” Through the whole discourse, Jesus says “my flesh, “my flesh”, “my flesh”, then, when trying to show these unbelievers their reason for not believing, he says “the flesh”, their human reasoning void of the spirit.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          According to John 17:22 he does share. “And I have GIVEN THEM the GLORY you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.’

          • ✞Servant✞

            Sorry Julie, you are but a filthy rag in need of God the Savior, like we all are. Seriously you think He spoke of the glory of being Almighty God? People who “rest in peace” are NOT Omnipresent, Omnipotent & Omniscient. The glory is nothing of you, but God’s glory of His Word, His Gospel..

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why I am now a filthy rag for bringing a verse that shows your assertion that God does not share His glory to be false?

          • ✞Servant✞

            Julie, all mankind, (below even the angels), were born in sin, we inherited from Adam, including Mary. Mary, like us all, need the Lord God & Savior. For it is only by the regeneration of the spirit within, that allows us to magnify and conquer all sin. It is by faith, that allows us to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, the seal for the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit’s works are acceptable to God…

            You have not been regenerated, because your Gospel is a different gospel. You worship Mary & man-chosen saints. You follow doctrines of the Vatican (mere men. You should reread Galatians. And, your entire Bible, in humbleness seeking to hear the Lord, and not allowing your heart to add to the word of God.

            I’ll pray for you, for only God can change you. The Vatican is blind and full of false teachers/prophets, deception & anathemas, which are warned of throughout the Bible. Peace be with you..

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Servant, you are wrong. Neither Adam nor Eve were born in sin. You claim and believe that God is all-powerful, yet deny that he could ‘save’ the Mother of His only begotten son before she was born. Why do you put God in a box? We are in His box, not Him in ours. He can do whatever he wants, however He wants, whenever He wants. What human being had the Holy Spirit overshadow them? What human was addressed by a new name? Gabrial addressed her as “Kecharitomone”, you need to study that word and put it to rest about Mary. Study her name in Hebrew and you’ll see that very roots of her name declare her exalted.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Can you read? I could read that verse to my grandkids and they’d understand it. ” I have given them the glory you gave me.” He is speaking to the apostles, not you or me.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. They truly have neglected Jesus in the most precious thing He left us. His body and Blood..

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Still waiting to hear what you have to say about the manna, which were wafers, and the Bread of the Presence.

  • Woody

    Yes, you are truly lost; the devil took you in the wrong direction; a hint – read the early Church Fathers – those closest the the Apostles’ time. “Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.” This is Jesus’ best advice the the one most avoided.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Seems the cat has your tongue. What was the Manna that God rained down for the Israelites? WAFERS?? You’re are perilously close to damning yourself by blaspheming the body and blood of Jesus.

  • Cynthia Banks

    Dear Walid, the way that your page loads there are far more comments from you then I have received. So much to respond to. And half your comments have nothing to do with what I have said. Some comment on a subject that had to do with a totally different article subject. But I will try and am blessed at your responses.

    • Cynthia Banks

      Question 1. Icons….. I believe the Shroud of Turin is a God created visual testimony of the Lord, as a witness to his light. Just as the heavens and the earth created by God are a testimony to his light and his power. However, I do not bow down and worship either the creation or the Shroud. I worship the creator of heaven and earth. I do not bow to the cross, and see it as quite strange that man feels the need to wear an object of torture around their necks. The point is he is not on that cross, he is risen. When we are commanded to make no graven image to bow down and worship it, I will obey God. He said it, he meant it, why would anyone argue with God.

      • Cynthia Banks

        Question 2. Pope Pius Xll, And silence. I can respect, your investigatory work on the Pope. I respect he was trying to protect the church from destruction. You are correct my information and learning of the Catholic Church came from the 1960’s. It was unfortunate that the church repeatedly will not open the archives to expose falsehood, when they have the ability to do so. The whole body of Christ is done harm, when we refuse to have all records clearly on the table. So I encourage you to complete your work, and publish the book for your dear Jewish friend. And I will excitedly read and respect it, because I have so honored all of your other works.

        • Cynthia Banks

          Question 3. Your desire for Protestants and Catholics to come together. I have seen just in the last twenty-four hours glib, comments against Protestants, in this forum. You defend this behavior as being New Yorkers versus Californians. Not so quick. We are Christians and there is never an excuse to be rude and biting and tearing at one another. It has begun again with your question Are we saved by faith or grace…or both??? The comments again are negatives about Protestants, and do not respond to the great question. So even though this is not the blog for that I will respond. We are saved by faith through the grace of Jesus Christ. And works always follow. Why because you are a new creation that he is using for his good purpose. The works are the simply the fruits of the spirit, that our Father is cultivating in us. They do not save, they testify that you are saved.

          • shoebat

            Cynthia, my California vs New Yorkers jokes were jokes and nothing more. The arguments against Protestants are minimal in comparison to anti-Catholic comments on my blog which is beyond my control, but if it serves you better, I am refraining from posting any more comments or jokes and will let you all debate as you wish. I bid you peace.

  • Cynthia Banks

    What do I love about the Catholic Church???? I love the reverence for our Lord and his liturgy. I love the commitment made by the nuns and priests, I love the pomp and circumstance, crying out for dignity, in a lost world. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, who are coming to a greater knowledge of the Charismatic movement and how that is uniting us rather then dividing us. And I am praying they understand there was good cause for the Protestant movement, and it is necessary where there is falsehood let us shed light. Let us reject all that is not of Christ and live as one body, one mind, one spirit, as on the day of Pentecost.

    • shoebat

      God can use the Protestant movement regardless of Luther. This was my point. But this still doesn’t mean that we do not iron differences between Protestant and Catholic. May I ask, what is your one most important problem with the Catholic belief and why?

      • Cynthia Banks

        You shall call no man “Father” but your Father which is in heaven. You shall worship the Lord your God and him only…. You shall make no graven images to bow down an worship them. There are a few. This should not be spoken of in the churches. Why do think it’s ok???

        • Julie LaBrecque

          For one, you’re ignorant of the scriptures in which Paul himself called himself a FATHER 1 Cor 4:15 & Phil 2:22 Aren’t we told that Abraham is our Father in Faith? You’re not understanding the verse you are quoting, just using it an attempt to again blaspheme Catholics. He also condemned calling anyone Rabbi, which means teacher. Did you ever call anyone a Teacher, Did you ever call you dad Father. You need to look at the totality of scriptures before you ask “why do you think it’s ok”.

  • Mark Roberts

    You are quite wrong to assert that the Name of Yahuweh is not to be spoken out loud. This tradition was started by a so called rabbi and is heresy. Ex 20:7 says quite the opposite to what you asserted. It says “You do not bring the Name of Yahuweh your Elohim to naught, for Yahuweh does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught.” If we do not mention His Name, we are bringing His Name to naught. Christians have broken this command by removing the Name of Yahuweh from their scriptures. Mosheh said that he would proclaim the Name of Yahuweh, as did all the prophets. The Tehillim (Psalms) are full of praises to Yahuweh and the Name of Yahuweh is used hundreds of times. Yahushua make the Name of Yahuweh known to those He taught. Yohanan (aka John) 17:6 I will do my best to follow Yahushua and Mosheh’s example and also proclaim the Name of Yahuweh.
    Shalom to you too.

    • ✞Servant✞

      I’m trying to share. Exodus 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.”

      It was forbidden to utter the name, YHVH, except by the High Priest during Yom Kippur under Hebrew law. Thus, the Jews spoke in 3rd person.

      Name-(Shem) -Doesn’t denote a specific pronunciation or mysticism, as God created various accents & languages. Rather, it means the reputation, the authority, the fame.. Same with the Greek word Noma. Yeshua claimed the name, YHVH.. But the name Yeshua/Yesu/Jesus (Salvation) is the only name that saves. Acts 4:12.

      You write in English so you would be running around praising “I AM (eternal/is/am/was)… I AM HE…” which is His name translated into English. Peace, and may your eyes stay on Yeshua. This might help http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html

      • Mark Roberts

        Proclaiming, praising and calling on the Name of Yahuweh is definitely NOT taking His Name in vain, so I strongly disagree that you use Exodus 20:7 to state that we can’t speak the Name of Yahuweh. Yes, it was forbidden to utter the Name of Yahuweh, except by the High Priest during Yom Kippur. This is Rabbinical law and not Torah, and is heresy!! The link you provided contained a few errors…The name of Yahuweh is not unutterable and the pronunciation has not been lost. The scriptures say “And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of Yahuweh will be saved”. (Acts 2:21, also Yoel 2:32) Clearly it is OK to utter His Name and call upon it.
        Shalom.

  • Mark Roberts

    Here’s an interesting quote:

    “No enlightened Catholic holds the pope’s infallibility to be an article of
    faith. I do not; and none of my brethren, that I know of do.”

    – This was said by Bishop John Purcell in the Campbell-Purcell Debate on the
    Roman Catholic Religion in 1837. The Debate was later printed in a book and
    Bishop Purcell’s statement is found on page 27. He made his remark before
    papal infallibility was decreed by the Vatican Council in 1870 to be an article
    of faith.

    There were many Catholics who spoke out against the notion of papal
    infallibility. It looks like unenlightened Catholics ruled the roost at the
    Vatican Council in 1870.

  • ✞Servant✞

    Brother Walid~”My dream is to reconcile the People of the Good Book while keeping the spirit of discussion in ironing out their differences. My dream is to help my fellow Christian Arab to see that his enemy is not Israel, but that Islam desires to conquer all of us..” I agree!! And I pray for you and your ministry. Grace, peace, joy and love be with you.

    “if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.” 1 Peter 4:16

  • Larry

    The Real Whore of Babylon?

    “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

    – Matthew 7:16

    But what of the possibility that Israel is the Beast of Revelation? Or is the entire race of Jews, world-wide, the Whore of Babylon? Perhaps it’s time to consider both these possibilities. Here’s how the book of Revelation describes the Whore of Babylon:

    17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Note that during the decades following Jesus’ execution, the early Christians were mercilessly attacked and killed (martyrs of Jesus) by the Sanhedrin. Also, according to some biblical scholars, Rome is what the author of Revelation, Saint John of Patmos, is talking about here. But what if these scholars are wrong? Let’s look at a few things that really stand out.

    First off, remember that it’s not just the country of Israel. Jewry considers all Jews wherever they may live to be the nation of Israel. In other words, the entire race is Israel. They may be spread out to the four corners of the world, but they are all Israelis (which explains a whole host of other things, too).

    Also, read this one famous quote from Revelations:

    “Behold, I will make them of the Synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

    — Revelation 3:9

    This quote tells us that one day these evil fake Jews will be brought to bay and put at our feet because they embraced Satan. It will be us who fight against this evil that will
    prevail. This quote also points a giant finger at the fact that many Jews are not even ”Israelites” to begin with. The evidence is extensive for this possibility and should be looked into by everyone, not just Christians.

    JESUS OF NAZARETH & TALMUDIC JEWS

    “No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years… But the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendents.”

    — Ashkenazi Jew, Professor Shlomo Sand in the book “When and How the Jewish People was Invented.” The Ashkenazim are the Eastern European Jews, mostly a Turkish/Hunnish (often called Mongol) race called “Khazars.”

    First off, let’s make this one thing perfectly clear. When you see the word “Jew” around here, technically I mean “Talmudic Khazars.” Sound complicated? Yeah, it does, but it shouldn’t. These people use the confusion about this on Whites to hide behind. It’s easy for them to do, especially since they actually believe they are the Jews of the Bible — so it doesn’t take much acting to play the part if you’ve
    been raised to think that from the get-go!

    Furthermore, the term “Judeo-Christianity” is a complete non-sense word because Judaism since those long ago days has really been the worship of something called the Talmud – which is NOT the same Old Testament of the Bible (the Torah displayed in Synagogues is merely symbolic, a totem no longer even read). And the word “anti-Semite” is a oxymoron as well, since the majority of Jews are actually descendants of a non-Semite people from the steppes of Eurasia — far from the Semitic peoples of the Middle East! The actual word “Jew” did not even exist until the 1700′s! This messed-up situation is due to a long-ago transfer of a religious “Meme”.

    The majority of “Jews” in the US and Israel, are a non-Semitic people, a bastardized, mixed-up Hunnish/Turkish group called the Khazars of the Caspian-Black sea area, who long ago converted to Judaism (usually described as Mongol/Turkish). Eventually, to get rid of remnants of them, Christian Russia forced them into an area of southern Poland and Russia called the Pale of Settlement. Some of them did migrate and travel into Germany and back again (which accounts for the German in the Yiddish language). They also moved into other Eastern European areas like Hungary and Romania. From these places, they immigrated into America in the late 1800′s. We now see how that’s turned out for this country as a whole.

    These Khazars did not convert to the same Judaism of the people of Moses (the Old Testament), but to a power control system created by the High Priests of the Levites and the Pharisees of Jeruselum — the very same group who turned Jesus over to the Romans, according to the New Testament. The arrogant Talmud however, can’t even allow credit for that evil act to go to the Romans, bragging that it was the Pharisees themselves who executed Jesus; by strangling him in the same Golgatha trash heap where the word for hell comes from.

    That same, often hateful, Talmud even says that “Yeschua Hanotsri” (Jesus of Nazerine), sometimes obliquely referred to as ”the magician from Egypt,” now boils in a vat of excrement in hell (Gittin 57a).

    Today’s so-called “Jews” are over 85% a mixed race of eastern European and southern Russian people called “Khazars,” who have inherited the Pharisee’s control and belief system called the Talmud. When you see photos of Orthodox Jews next to Palestinians in Israel, you will distinctly notice just how much they stick out like a
    sore thumb in this part of the world — folks, these are not the same Israelites of the Christian Bible!

    It’s important to understand that the Talmud was a set of books created by the descendants of the Pharisees and Sadducee’s of Jerusalem during the time of Jesus. In fact, this kind of rabbinic thinking was exactly what Jesus was fighting against during his short ministry on earth. The Pharisees sought to control every little thing in the Israelite’s lives and if you did something against or didn’t do something they had a tiny rule about, than you committed a sin against God!
    Call them the ultimate in control-freaks.

    In addition to this, the priestly class of the Levites believed all other nations and peoples should be utterly destroyed (all the smoting of men, women and children, even livestock, etc. etc.); that only the Judahites (besides the small tribe of Benjamin to survive to that point) were favored in God’s eyes (the Chosen people stuff). These Jews would one day inherit the entire world. This incredibly violent streak against other surrounding peoples and religions was codified (see Deuteronomy and Numbers) and passed down to today’s world. Ask the Palestinians and Lebanese all about it.

    The Pharisees turned Jesus over to the Romans, because he was screwing up their money-making gigs.

    This is the real evil that Jesus, John the Baptist and the mystery cult of the Essenes (Dead Sea scrolls) were up against. The Pharisees and Sadducees were, at this point, a part of the Edumean (Edomites) power structure (Herod Antipas came
    from them). The High Priests had long since corrupted the law of Moses (if he
    ever even existed) for their own benefit. This group acted as tools, or puppets, of the more militarily powerful Roman overlords and worked to enrich themselves at the
    expense of the poor people of the countryside — those that only wanted to follow God’s basic commandments and live in peace, without getting taxed to death. Some things never change!

    Jesus was a peaceful, non-violent revolutionary against these evil Roman tools, the Edumean Pharisees. That is until he went into the Temple area on the day before Good Friday and saw all the money changer’s tables and scam operations of those who sold animals for sacrifice. The sight of that turned him ballistic on the spot — he knew these money-grubbers were in cahoots with the High Priests and that sent him into a rage.

    The Romans later themselves had quite enough of the stiff-necked, intransigent Jews and in 70AD and later in the Hadrian destruction of 130AD, they laid waste to Jerusalem, razing the Second Temple and kicking the corrupted Jews out. Most Jews in the countryside just hunkered down and tried to continue on with their lives (later to become the Palestinians).
    But the High Priest class, the Pharisees, escaped to places like Alexandria, Egypt
    and Baghdad, Babylonia because these were city dwellers, not country people (this was the real Diaspora).
    They took with them all their painful Talmudic control systems and books.
    Talk about baggage!

    The Jews had always been in Baghdad, ever since the days of enslavement by Nebakanezer (another Matrix movie parallel) and the High Priests found harbor in this left-behind Jewish community. There, they finished the Babylonian Talmud in 499
    AD, incorporating many bizarre beliefs of the surrounding non-Jew cults.

    Many scholars who study the Talmud have remarked on occult superstitions found in the Talmud. Some actually believe that it contains Satanic or Molech worship (an early G-d of the people in that part of the world), human sacrificial rites (including the Blood Libel). All this may account for Jewish behavior and the state of today’s world:

    “Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and the patrimony of Babylon, from whence the Talmudic and kabbalistic traditions of Judaism ultimately derive. Orthodox
    Judaism’s other major sacred book, the Kabbalah, is filled with astrological teachings, fortune-telling, gematria, necromancy and demonology…Orthodox rabbis place curses, cast spells and imagine they have powers greater than God, derived from their study of the Sefer Yezriah, a book of Kabbalistic magic.”

    – Michael Hoffman, “Strange Gods,” p.81

    These Babylonian Tamudic priests had trade route contact with other Jews who migrated westward to Egypt, like the famous Jewish rabbi, Maimonides of Alexander, who stole the concept, or meme of Legos (“the Word”) from the White Greek Stoics or philosophers. This back and forth transmission of ideas among various Talmudic rabbi groups moved further west and north into the Iberian peninsula (Spain and
    Portugal).
    These were the Sephardic Jews, who were indeed Semitic and, to some degree, genetically the real descendants of the tribes of Moses.

    Eventually, the beliefs of the Pharisees and Levite High Priest class in Babylon influenced the Khazars, due north of them near the Caspian sea and converted them to the Talmudic version of Judaism in the 8th Century AD. The Khazars were a mixed race of Huns, Turkish people and some Slavs, but mostly were Asiatic and completely different from the Semitic races of Abraham to the south and west.

    It is an inarguable and historically-proven fact (like the Schechter and Kievan Letters) that these people converted to Rabbinical Judaism around 740AD, under King (called Bek) Bulin and his grandson, Obadiah. This was not, as some would try to tell you, a mere off-shoot of the minor Karaite sect, nor was it only confined to the ruling class.
    It was due to real Hebrew influences on a large population from a variety sources, such as Crimean Jewish outposts, Radanhite Jewish merchants and religious refugees from the Christian Byzantine and Muslim Persian empires.

    The Babylonian Talmud was adopted as the “holy books” for a race that never, ever lived in the holy land.

    Actual remnant Hebrews did come into Khazaria and interbred with the locals over time. This accounts for the presence of some Semitic DNA in today’s Ashkenazi Jews but also reveals a bottle-neck, or what is called a “Founder Effect” – at precisely the number of generations ago that this conversion took place (more below).

    The transfer of the Talmudic Meme: This is the course of the belief and control system of the Pharisees, expelled from Jerusalem by the Romans (“the Diaspora”), and later became the religion of the semi-asiatic Khazar kingdom. This satanic meme resulted in the Ashkenazi Jews that now plague the Palestinians and the rest of
    the world today. The early Christian meme, followed similar outward path into the Roman and Byzantine worlds via Turkey, but the Byzantine world smartly outlawed any kind of Jew from civil service, intermarriage and education. All of this would eventually come back in a round-about fashion to haunt Christianity — oh yes, it would.

    With the transfer of the Talmudic control system to the Kingdom of the Khazars, what we see is the movement of an idea or concept — a meme — from one racial group to another. The various religions of the world can be considered the ultimate “Memes” in human history.

    Memes are:

    An idea that, like a gene, can replicate and evolve.

    A unit of cultural information that represents a basic idea that can be transferred from one individual to another, and subjected to mutation, crossover and
    adaptation.

    A cultural unit (an idea or value or pattern of behavior) that is passed from one generation to another by nongenetic means (as by imitation); “memes are the cultural counterpart of genes.”

    Today’s Jews go completely haywire over the whole Khazar business and hate it when us Gentiles talk about it (as usual, calling us “anti-Semites” or ”Nazis,” if we dare) — because it logically calls into question their “ownership” of Palestine, the raison d’être of that outlaw State of Israel, as well as them wearing the precious mantle of being called “Israelite” and a “Chosen One.” This is one of the biggest
    “forbidden” subjects in history. They vigorously denounce it all as too “fantastic” to have occurred. But is it?

    In fact, this kind of transfer of religious ideas from one racial stock to another has happened many, many times in history. Look at how Christianity diffused through-out the Roman Empire at the exact same time as the Talmud moved elsewhere. See how White Northern European peoples later accepted Christianity and turned against the Catholic church, evolving their own contrasting version (Protestant). Make note of Shinto Buddhism of Japan, which later formed the backbone to a Supremacist and Militarist ideology that had much to do with the origins of WWII. The correlations are many.

    And it’s not at all unbelievable crazy man talk. Let’s say you were born into a society 1300 years ago that had no books, magazines, photos or TV. You had nothing to go on but what your parents, your fellow yurt dwellers and the neighborhood local leaders (rabbis) told you. It would only take a few generations for everyone to believe they are descendants of the ancient Israelites, or whatever religious group.

    Although it can be described as Judaism, the Talmudic meme is not the same religion of Moses or the Israelites. It’s the anally compulsive mind-set of the Pharisee class, those that controlled every aspect (the dogmatic Halakhah Law) of the Jew’s life, keeping themselves in power. This same rigged game is played out to this very day, where untold numbers of rabbis live the lives of the indolent Talmudic “scholars,” not working and breeding large Jew families.

    The Talmudic Khazar Jews have always been more comfortable living segregated in the cities — such as Brooklyn, NY — where the orthodox (Hasidic) men study the Talmud all day and don’t hold jobs contributing to America as a whole. Those that do work, usually ply Jewish trades like diamond merchants or scam ops like the Kosher rackets (which you pay into all the time and don’t know it), right along with the more secular-looking Jews who go out and practice usurious banking tactics on the surrounding Goyim populations.

    What’s really bad is that a giant part of it concerns you but you don’t have a clue. Oh yeah. They believe that only by corralling you under political control (the NWO), and by forcing you to follow their special commandments for non-Jews, will G-d make the Jews one with him and bring back the rest of secular Jewry to the Talmudic code. This is called the “Seven Laws of Noah,” but secretly includes another 66.

    Modern-day Talmudists also believe that us non-Jews are really ”Amalek,” the eternal enemy to the Jews. The last mention of this was in the Bible 500 years before Christ. Today, almost all Christians have no idea they may belong to this secret enemy
    army of Jewry. You may actually be under a death sentence, just for being born! And they call us racists? Michael Hoffman explains “Amalek” here in this video
    link. The Amalek document he discusses in the video: Rationales Justifying Collective Punishment.

    Although many Jews claim to be Atheists, the Talmudic mind-set is still a big over-all part of of Jewdom because of a real life ”Supremacy” in how they think of themselves as a racial group, vis a vis the rest of the planet’s citizens. But it’s not YAHWEH whom they worship, but the Talmudic meme of Judaism that says they are mini G-ds themselves. Call it the overall gestalt of the modern day Jews:

    “The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart’s blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs, or ceremonies we observe — whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or merely spasmodic sentimentalists — we follow the Talmud. It is our common law.”

    – Herman Wouk, “This is My God.”

  • Maranatha

    So , bassically you are condoning the killing of theManichaeans, Arians, Cathars, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles, Waldensians, Albigensians, Lollards and Hussites.

    Just for your information, the Hussite built in Moravia during the XI and XII century , the most Christian society under any perspective of living standards the world has ever known.

    They were all Bible and God fearing people and lived in such a peace, harmony and prosperity that most of their cities had only empty jails.

    Of course, they didn’t obey Rome and paid the mistake of not having an army to defend themselves. They paid it with extinction.

    Pretty soon you will write that the muslim in the white house is doing an excellent job protecting Christianity. Because in America we are just sinners after all. We don’t count as believers, right?

    Have you heard about the saint Bartholomew’s day massacre?…. August 24-25-26-27 1572?

    On that week the Catholics killed 200 Huguenots in two days…….I am not saying that the real historic number of people massacred were close to 200,000 and in one week, because you will argue–as you do in your present note–that those numbers are grossly inflated.
    So just pick up the version that fits you better..
    ..

  • Maranatha

    Have you ever heard about the killing of evangelicals by the catholic church in Colombia, Paraguay Bolivia and South America as whole, in the LAST 100 years??

    You want to know the REAL catholic church–not the one under a sheep cloth we know in America–there is?….make and unbiased visit to South America.

    Visit Argentina, Bolivia Colombia, Mexico and all the rest. You will feel like in the Dark Ages. Their practices are disgusting. They condone and bless any kind of idolatry or practice that serves well. They worship and pray to any object you can imagine.
    What about the killing of evangelicals in Mexico last year alone?
    This is now. Not 1000 years ago.
    I love the Catholic believer and have many friends among them. But I will never condone those practices in those countries.
    Because the Bible says plainly what happens if you condone.
    ..

  • jmstalk

    It’s a misconception that Catholics don’t know their Bible. The actual situation is that they do not memorize their Bible. They know what it says and recognize the stories but cannot usually quote whole verses. This is because traditionally Catholics were not oriented toward conversing with other faiths to engage in apologetics. The Catholic Church focused on teaching the truths of the faith, not teaching how to counter the opposition. Today, that has put us at a disadvantage because, although we can usually articulate what we believe, we cannot quote the verses from which the teachings come, even though we know in general terms where the teachings come from. I believe this will be remedied in coming generations because today Catholics are studying and/or reading the Bible like crazy. I am involved in a group in the Catholic Church that is centered around Scripture and I am immersed in it all the time. Still, I do not memorize and cannot often quote verses. Without Google, I would do a lot of searching for the verse I need in a particular situation, but I find it with Google because I can at least quote parts of the verse. We read the Bible with an eye toward what it means in our own personal lives and what we can learn from it regarding our present situation, not to debate with others. Still today, our primary aim is not to debate it with others and so we do not study it as an academic exercise or to memorize it to use as a weapon to others.

    • Registered

      That sounds tragic.

      Foremost in life Matt 6.33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

  • yzwisey

    Walid, I believe what is happening now, is prophecy. The Catholic church trying to unify those who profess to be Christian and those who are not. Also, those whom are being led astray by the leaders of said denominations. This is biblical for people to say they are excited for it, they are deceived.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      If you understood Jesus’ intent on leaving one authority on earth to lead His church, you would realize that it is the job of the successor of Peter to bring in the harvest for Jesus when he returns. God wills that all men be saved. Study the story in John 21, it is historic, and prophetic. You will notice that although the other apostles helped with the catch and dragged the net part of the way, Simon Peter brings the ‘harvest’ to the shore, with no tear (schism) in the net.

      • yzwisey

        What does one have to do with the other? Are you saying you know Yeshua’s intent? I believe you are being deceived if you believe it is a “good thing” young evangelicals are converting to Catholicism. The reunification of the church does not come until the return of the HaMoshiach. Sorry, not trying to be argumentative.I am speaking from an individual who grew up in the Catholic church, and a Nazarene but, family descendants were apart of the inquisition. So, yes, I am of Jewish decent. Now a Messianic Jew. I don’t believe you know the history of the Catholic church or, it’s “intent”. By the way, I watched this live event on closed circuit stream from Vatican City and was invited by 7 Day Adventist, And Rabbi’s this is biblical ,this is, and was a major event, as well as, prophetic.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          What does one have to do with the other? I assumed you could read the verse with understanding. Events in the Bible have to be read first for its most literal and historical application, then read for future applications. Ecclesiastes informs us that events happen more than once. Are you troubled by Peter being the sole person who brought in the harvest?
          What is this “intent” of the Catholic Church? I can read between the lines, but a need at least a line or two.
          Do you qualify 7th day Adventists as those being led astray? They still hold to the teachings of Ellen G. White who has been proven to be a false prophet. They believe the mark of the beast is a mark taken that requires forced Sunday worship. They, like the Muslims, are openly hostile to the Catholic Church, & like the Muslims, do not believe Sunday to be the day to worship. Don’t these parallel beliefs with Islam leave the 7th DA as low-hanging fruit to convert to Islam?

          • yzwisey

            Where in the Bible does Yahovah/ GOD changed the Sabbath day? You can go from beginning to end and not find it. We also would not come across any new day of rest from Yeshua. for believers of Him. In Genesis 2, 1-3 Yahovah/GOD specifically made this, the 7th day a Holy convocation, an edict for YOU and your generations. Yahovah/GOD does NOT change He is the same yesterday as He is today. He never changes. The calender has not changed from Yeshua’s time as today look at a calender what day is the 7th day or Sabbath day? Saturday. No mention in the New Testament of Sunday until you reach Matthew. “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn (the original language means drawing towards and does not refer to a time just before sunrise) “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.” (Matt 28:1) Days in the Bible did not run midnight to midnight as they do today but, rather ran from sunset to sunset. The seventh day or Sabbath day ran from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. What does Matthew 28:1 tell us? It states that the two Mary’s about the time the Sabbath was ending (Saturday evening) went to Yeshua’s tomb. The logical time sequence of this verse confirms that a Biblical Sabbath observance occurred from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. There is no support here for going to church on Sunday since this visit to the tomb happened on Saturday night. I could expounded on the true Sabbath further by referring to Mark but, I believe I made that point. Now whether or not I “qualify” 7 day Adventist or, not is pure conjecture on my part, and there is One far more qualified to judge than you or, I. FYI the Catholic’s are the ones whom originally instituted islam, Sunday worship, Calling a “man” father, saying a Priest is our intercessor when Yeshua is our only intercessor, also, that we should or could, pray to Mary. Did I say that I was raised in the Catholic church.? You write to me as if I am some laymen whom does not know. I went to Catechism M-F mass on Saturday (yes, the Catholic church held mass on Saturday) and then, church on Sunday. It was not until close to my father’s demise did I learn of my heritage, that he was Jewish.If you knew anything about Catholicism.you should know their plans for incorporating or, converting all denominations to a form of Chris-lam. It is the ones whom DO NOT hold true to the truth i.e. word of Yahovah/ GOD that will fall for this deception.I am not a Biblical scholar, just a nobody, just a repentant believer in Yeshua, my Lord and Savior. Even as a child I knew Catholicism was WRONG for the above stated reasons. I was very sickly and read the Catholic and KJV of the Bibles cover to cover.

          • nworder

            Luke records in Ac 20:7: “On the first day of the week (sunday) we came together to break bread.”

          • yzwisey

            Yes, but he says first day of week. Not that is was a Shabbat /Sabbath day. You have to understand the time and Jewish practice. I break bread with people it means nothing more than sitting down and having a meal. Paul I believe was getting them excited and or, teaching until midnight. There is no difference as you and I “breaking bread” having a meal and discussing Yeshua/ Jesus.

          • Registered

            The greek says Acts 20:7 εν δε τη μια των σαββατων συνηγμενων των μαθητων του κλασαι αρτον ο παυλος διελεγετο αυτοις μελλων εξιεναι τη επαυριον παρετεινεν τε τον λογον μεχρι μεσονυκτιου

            Acts 20:7 says the first of the sabbaths (σαββατων) or weeks. verse 6 States After the feast of unleavend bread.
            So when it is the first of the sabbaths, it is the first sabbath of the count to Pentecost. Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

          • yzwisey

            The emphasis on ” the morrow AFTER the Sabbaths.” You are coming in late the discrepancy was, to whether it is a Sunday or, Saturday Sabbath. I know the first day of the week is Sun day.

          • Registered

            Acts 20:7 Is a sabbath and not Sunday.
            Acts 20:7 it is the first Sabbath of the count to Pentecost.
            “First day of the week” is a mistranslation,
            Acts 20:7 clearly states in the Greek “Sabbaths” (σαββατων)

          • nworder

            Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Matt 28:2 ‘AFTER the sabbath’
            Mark 16 “When the Sabbath was over” “very early when the sun HAD risen on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK’
            Mary Magdalene was not there at night according to the Bible.
            When Jesus holds mass, the breaking of the bread with the disciples on the road to Emmaus (when he was in a different form), it was the same first day of the week.

        • Tom_mcewen

          Yeshua?, the Greeks conquered Israel in 391 BC Hebrew died out to be replaced by Greek. The signs recovered from the temple are in greek, the burial urn of the chief priest at Christ’s trial is in greek, no one called Iésous Yeshua. There was no Hebrew. Do we speak old english? a nice 19th century work around to show you are close to Jesus.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Mohammed required abstinence from pork, just like Jews
    Mohammed required the belief in one God, just like the Jews.
    Were you intending to draw a parallel from Mohammed to Catholics? You bombed out. FYI – Mohammed took parts of Jewish and Christian beliefs, put them in a cauldron and made Islam.
    Are you praying for the Christians being slaughtered? Maybe you shouldn’t do that, after all, they have God and don’t need to contact anyone else.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    It’s been 8 days and no response, cat must have your tongue.

    • shoebat

      It’s the nature of slanderers, they throw there slander “The Catholic Church is the Harlot” and they disappear into oblivion. Or perhaps the moment they knew that Lea is here, they exorcized themselves 🙂

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Yellow-bellied cowards

  • shoebat

    Carl, I could just say your “The Whore of Babylon.” Just making the claim doesn’t make the case, does it?
    For me to make my case, I would have to show ample evidence that you drank the blood of saints.
    Have you made your claim as to what saints did the Catholic church kill? Name the saints Dick. Or forever hold your slander. Just because millions slander does not entitle you to slander. Unless you prove your case you are a slanderer, regardless to how much you “love Jesus”.

    • Carl Dick

      And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus – The warfare, in which so much blood was shed, was directed against the saints as such, and that, in fact, it terminated particularly on those who, amidst cruel sufferings, were faithful witnesses for the Lord Jesus, and deserved to be called, by way of eminence, “martyrs.” How applicable this is to the papacy, let the blood (that was) shed in the valleys of Piedmont; the blood (that was) shed in the Low Countries by the Duke of Alva; the blood (that was) shed on Bartholomew’s day; and the blood (that was) shed in the Inquisition, testify.

      This may seem like a long article, but I have shortened it as much as I could.

      From Fox’s Book of Martyrs:

      PERSECUTIONS IN THE VALLEYS OF PIEDMONT

      An Account of the Persecutions in the Valleys of Piedmont, in the Seventeenth Century

      Pope Clement the Eighth, sent missionaries into the valleys of Piedmont, to induce the Protestants to renounce their religion;

      The Protestants petitioned the duke of Savoy against these missionaries, whose insolence had become intolerable; but instead of getting any redress, the interest of the missionaries so far prevailed, that the duke published a decree, in which he declared, that one witness should be sufficient in a court of law against a Protestant, and that any witness, who convicted a Protestant of any crime whatever, should be entitled to one hundred crowns.

      It may be easily imagined, upon the publication of a decree of this nature, that many Protestants fell martyrs to perjury and avarice; for several villainous papists would swear anything against the Protestants for the sake of the reward, and then fly to their own priests for absolution from their false oaths. If any Roman Catholic, of more conscience than the rest, blamed these fellows for their atrocious crimes, they themselves were in danger of being informed against and punished as favorers of heretics.

      Previous to the persecution, the missionaries employed kidnappers to steal away the Protestants’ children, that they might privately be brought up Roman Catholics; but now they took away the children by open force, and if they met with any resistance, they murdered the parents.

      To give greater vigor to the persecution, the duke of Savoy called a general assembly of the Roman Catholic nobility and gentry when a solemn edict was published against the reformed, containing many heads, and including several reasons for extirpating the Protestants, among which were the following:

      # For the preservation of the papal authority.

      # That the church livings may be all under one mode of government.

      # To make a union among all parties.

      # In honor of all the saints, and of the ceremonies of the Church of Rome.

      This severe edict was followed by a most cruel order, published on January 25, A.D. 1655, under the duke’s sanction, by Andrew Gastaldo, doctor of civil laws. This order set forth, “That every head of a family, with the individuals of that family, of the reformed religion, of what rank, degree, or condition soever, none excepted inhabiting and possessing estates in Lucerne, St. Giovanni, Bibiana, Campiglione, St. Secondo, Lucernetta, La Torre, Fenile, and Bricherassio, should, within three days after the publication thereof, withdraw and depart, and be withdrawn out of the said places, and translated into the places and limits tolerated by his highness during his pleasure; particularly Bobbio, Angrogne, Vilario, Rorata, and the county of Bonetti.

      “And all this to be done on pain of death, and confiscation of house and goods, unless within the limited time they turned Roman Catholics.”

      Excerpts from the HISTORY OF THE WALDENSES — BOOK 2

      “The first lesson which the Waldenses taught those whom they drew to their sect is, that they inform them what manner of persons the disciples of Christ ought to be, by the words of the gospel and the apostles; saying, that those only are the successors of the apostles who imitate their life. Inferring thence, that the pope, the bishops, and clergy, who enjoy the riches of this world, and seek after them, do not follow the lives of the apostles, and therefore are not the true guides of the church; it having never been the design of our Lord Jesus Christ to commit his chaste and well beloved spouse to those who would rather prostitute it by their wicked examples and works, than preserve it in the same purity in which they received it at the beginning, a virgin chaste and without spot.

      Out of hatred, therefore, of the Waldenses, for the many things written by them against the luxury, avarice, pride, and errors introduced by the popes, they have persecuted them to death. The means which they used to exterminate them, were their thunderbolts and their anathemas, their canons, constitutions, and decrees, and whatsoever might render them odious to the kings, princes, and the people of the earth; giving them over, as much as in them lay, to Satan; interdicting them all communion and society with those who obeyed their laws; judging them unworthy and incapable of any office, honor, profits, and to inherit or make wills, or to be buried in the common church-yards.

      Therefore, Pope Innocent III., who succeeded Pope Celestin III., about the year 1198, took another method than that of the ordinary bishops, to frame the process against the Waldenses and others, whom he called heretics. He authorized certain monks who had the full power of the Inquisition in their hands to frame the process, and deliver over to the secular power by a far shorter way, but much more cruel; for they delivered up the people by thousands into the hands of the magistrates, and the magistrates to the executioners; whereby in a few years all Christendom was moved by those pitiful and lamentable spectacles, grieving to see all those persons hanged or burnt who trusted only in our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and renounced all the vain hopes invented by men: and for their profit; which was all the fruit of the Papal Inquisition.

      …He labored in the Inquisition as chief, with such satisfaction to the popes, that from that time forward the monks of his order were ever employed in the Inquisition.

      The power conferred upon the said monks inquisitors was without limits. For they might assemble the people when they pleased by the sound of a bell, and send out process if there were occasion to imprison, or open the prisons without control. All manner of accusations were valid; a sorcerer, or a harlot, was a sufficient and irreproachable witness in the case of pretended heresy. It was no matter who accused, or whether it were by word of mouth, or by tickets cast in before the Inquisitor. Without any personal appearance, or confronting of each other, the process was made, without party, without evidence, and without any other law than the pleasure of the inquisitors. To be rich, was a crime near unto heresy; and he that had anything to lose, was in a way to be undone, either as a heretic, or at least as a favorer of heretics. One single suspicion stopped the mouths of fathers, mothers, and relatives, that they dared not intercede to prevent future punishment; and if any one begged leave to convey a cup of water to them, or a little straw to lie upon in some stinking dungeon, he was adjudged as a criminal, and a favorer of heretics, and often reduced to the same or worse extremity.

      Now the speech of the said prelates being compared with what George Morel wrote in the year 1530, it would appear to be none of the least miracles of God, that NOTWITHSTANDING THE BLOODY PERSECUTIONS ever since Waldo’s time, in the year 1160, until the said year 1530, there were, according to the report of the said Morel, at that time, above eight hundred thousand persons who made profession of the religion of the Waldenses.

      THE ST. BARTHOLOMEW’S DAY MASSACRE — POPE GREGORY XIII CELEBRATES

      THE MASS MURDER OF FRENCH PROTESTANTS

      In 1572, Catherine de Medici and her son, King Charles IX of France, in league with Pope Gregory XIII, carried out a plan to lure thousands of Protestants to Paris, ostensibly to attend a royal wedding between a Catholic princess and a Protestant nobleman. The wedding was presented as an opportunity to seal the Peace of St. Germain between French Protestants and Catholics, which had ended the Third War of Religion in France. Instead, it amounted to a successful plot to destroy Protestantism in France by murdering a significant percentage of leading Protestant nobles, and a large number of ordinary Protestants as well.

      The royal Swiss Guard was instructed to expel Protestant nobles from the royal palace and to kill the leaders of the Protestant delegation. Coligny was dragged from his sickbed and thrown out of a palace window. Meanwhile, the Protestant nobles expelled from the palace were slaughtered outside. The local populace, now armed, exploded in a wave of anti-Huguenot violence. For three days Protestants were hunted throughout the city, with almost 4,000 people being murdered in the streets, including women and children. As news of events in Paris spread, the massacre of Huguenots by Catholics continued in a number of other French cities, resulting in the killing of tens of thousands of people throughout the land.

      “The news of the bloody deed was received with unbounded joy by the pope at the Vatican. The Cardinal of Lorraine presented the messenger who brought the news to Rome with a thousand pieces of gold and exclaimed that the King’s heart had been filled with a sudden inspiration from God when he ordered the massacre.”

      Over the portico of the church was hung a cloth of purple, on which was a Latin inscription most elegantly embroidered in letters of gold, in which it was distinctly stated that the massacre had occurred after ‘counsels had been given.’ On the following day the Pontiff went in procession to the Church of Minerva, where, after mass, a jubilee was published to all Christendom, ‘that they might thank God for the slaughter of the enemies of the Church, lately executed in France.’ A third time did the pope go in procession, with his cardinals and all the foreign ambassadors then resident at his court, and after mass in the Church of St. Louis, he accepted homage from the Cardinal of Lorraine, and thanks in the name of the King of France, for the counsel and help he had given him by his prayers, of which he had found the most wonderful effects.”

      There is much, much more, but this should suffice.

      Carl

  • Woody

    SORRY AGREEING WITH LINDA ONLY MEANS YOU BOTH WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOL; IT TOOK ME ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO REFUTE YOUR LIES; AND I TOOK A BREAK FOR A CUP OF COFFEE.

    MY ADVICE- GET YOUR GED

    MY ANSWER IS IN 4 PARTS DOWN BELOW; (You need to read Walid’s excellent research “Those Damnded Catholics, and his article on “what the Church at the time of Christ were like–in fact it was the same then as it is now.
    “Catholics Are Right-Pentecostals Are Wrong.”
    God Bless

  • DE

    ……..sun god doctrine…….
    Kiddo, I dunno what you used and read when ‘researching’ the Catholic Church, but you really had the wool pulled over your eyes.

  • Woody

    Your having forsaken God’s Church is a “win-win” for the devil for the last thing he wants is for you to be in His Church being nourished daily by His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity growing holy by each day as His nature blends into our blood stream. No satan has you where he wants you…with 37,500 disparate churches all stumbling around “saying-No! I am the ONE who knows what Jesus means…as their doctrines of men so often even contradict each other. All of these churches were founded by “men” “women” who have no authority in scripture or anywhere else–only Jesus could Found His Church and he certainly did not any help from us.

    Yes, satan is smiling all the way to the bank as he disrupts 800,000,000 of the brethern…

    Parallel Verses

    New International Version

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

    New Living Translation

    Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

    English Standard Version

    And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    New American Standard Bible

    “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    King James Bible

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Holman Christian
    Standard Bible

    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.

    International Standard Version

    I tell you that you are Peter, and it is on this rock that I will build my congregation, and the powers of hell will not conquer it.

    NET Bible

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

    The Great Commission

    …19″Go therefore and make disciples of all the
    nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all
    that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

    NOTE:
    “I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” HARDLY, A SHORT TERM CHURCH AS YOU POSIT”

    You have made yourself your own goddess; all of Scripture cite Jesus Founding His Church on PETER.

    Whenever Jesus had a “special mission for people” He changed their name all throughout the Bible;

    Saul to Paul – Mission: to be the Apostle of the Gentiles

    Simon to Peter – which means “Rock” – Cephas AND He promised even the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    (again – you do exactly as I have said—you “mistranslate” because you are in the right pew but the wrong church.) instead of humility

    You
    accept the sin of pride. (another name of this error – “prejudice” which Walid often points out, and he despises it.

    Your own Theologian and a fair one, Harnack, says “anyone who says that Peter never went to Rome or was not the first Bishop of Rome

    IS BLIND. (Predjudiced)

    Leaven of the Pharisees and Herod

    …”17 Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18″HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT
    SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR?

    John 1:42

    And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).

    Matthew 7:24

    “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

    Acts
    20:28

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

    Ephesians 2:20

    built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    Jesus Guarantee to His Church: (which you deny-same as calling Him a Liar)

    There are several cases where we are told a person had their name changed by God:

    1. Abram had his name changed to Abraham (Genesis 17:3 – 6). At the same time, his wife Sarai had her name changed to Sarah (Genesis 17:15 – 16).

    2. Jacob had his name changed to Israel (Genesis 32:26 – 30; 35:9 – 10).

    3. Solomon was called Jedidiah (beloved of the Lord) because God loved him (2 Samuel 12:24 – 25), though it is
    not clear that God had his name changed and he was always afterwards called Solomon.

    4. Pashur was
    called “Terror on Every Side” by God (Jeremiah 20:1 – 6).

    Each of these name changes were done for a reason: because the new name meant something important about what God would make that person.

    Abraham meant “father of many nations”, and God changed his name because that was exactly what he was promising: that Abraham would be a father of any nations. While

    Sarah means the same as Sarai (“princess”) it seems that
    the name change was connected with the same promise: that she would be a mother of many nations, and a princess as a result. Israel meant “He strives with God”, and was as a result of Jacob fighting with the angel and succeeding in getting a blessing.

    Jedidiah means “beloved of the Lord”, and was given because God loved him.

    Pashur was called “Terror on Every Side” because that was how he was going to feel when he was punished for prophesying
    falsely.

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  • shoebat

    David Plaisted is a computer science major and is not a historian. If you give me a historian who will approve of Plaisted’s works, I will recant everything I wrote, but you can’t.

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  • shoebat

    Are you saying that the Cathars were “real ancient Christians”? Why would you do such a thing?! Yet you never even took the time to explain yourself as to how you evaluated these from either a biblical perspective or a historic perspective. Why would you do such a thing?!

  • shoebat

    FALSE. This is a myth. There are writings by the Cathars themselves. Have you read their own writings from their own source:
    The Book of the Two Principles

    You can even read the book for free.

  • shoebat

    Actually I should be asking you a similar question, why do so many slander the Catholics? Lets just take one of the list you had: The Bogomils.

    They were dualists in that they believed the world was created not by the Abrahamic God, but by anevil demiurge—the Devil. They did not use the cross nor build churches, preferring to perform rituals outdoors.

    The Albigensians held a doctrine first contrived by one heretic from the third century, named Mani. He lived in Mesopotamia and started a cult called Manichaeism, which held–amongst numerous beliefs–that they were two gods, one of evil and one of good; that Christ never came in the flesh and that the crucifixion was a fantasy.

    Why have you not looked up the Bogomils before you announced them as Christian? This is the real question?

    Should I go on and on?

  • John Warren
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  • shoebat

    So what do you do with Ezekiel? The evangelical movement is divided on the issue interpreting Ezekiel 40-48 and so many Evangelicals believe that in the millennium there will e Temple Sacrifice.

    So why are so many evangelicals believe in re-sacrificing Jesus?

    Opponents argue that if this is a literal, future temple, then it will require a return to the sacrificial system that Christ made obsolete since the prophet speaks of “atonement” (kiper) in Ezekiel. 43:13, 27; 45:15, 17, 20. This is true! Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ as presented in Hebrews 10.

    Hank Hanegraaff for example says that I have “exacerbated the problem by stating that without animal sacrifices in the millennium, Yahweh’s holiness would be defiled. That, for obvious reasons, is blasphemous.” He further says that such a view constitutes a return “to Old Covenant sacrifices.”

    Yet most Evangelicals would disagree with him.

    “Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.” (Zec 14:21)

    I understand very well that many Christians attempt to provide allegorical and symbollic explanations for the last few chapters of Ezekiel’s glimpse into the future, which indicate that animal sacrifices and various offerings will take place after Jesus returns. Others argue that the following passages are clear:

    “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: These will be the regulations for sacrificing burnt offerings and sprinkling blood upon the altar when it is built: You are to give a young bull as a sin offering to the Levitical priests of the family of Zadok …” (Ezekiel 43:18-24)

    In fact, the Evangelical church is pretty divided on this issue. These and similar passages are straightforward, literal passages describing animal sacrifices and burnt offerings made to the Lord in His Temple, during the Millennium.

    So my question is, why do so many in the Protestant denominations believe in re-sacrificing Jesus?

    As to the issue you bring about the Catholics, well, this was established long ago. Is the altar a New Testament concept, or only a remnant of the past?

    Please respond.

    But an altar is in Scripture (Heb 13:10, 1 Cor 10:21; etc.). Ignatius (AD 35-107) and the earliest believers concur: “Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with His Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as also there is but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow-servitors the deacons. This will insure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God” (The Epistle to the Philadelphians 4, in Early Christian Writings, 94, written about 106 A.D.). Notice the four key words that continually crop up: body, blood, altar, and sacrifice. Protestant scholar J.N. D. Kelly comments on this last quotation, “Ignatius’ reference to the ‘one altar, just as there is one bishop,’ reveals that he too thought [of the Eucharist] in sacrificial terms”.

    Now, I know you disagree with this, but before you give me your theological views, name me the Christians who did not observe communion this way prior to Calvin and Luther?

  • shoebat

    Margaret,

    The key word in your comment is “researcher”, “And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”

    All my Christian life people would tell me that I should ask Jesus and He will deliver. Yet Jesus says yes, ask, but also “seek”. How can one “seek” without researching is beyond me. People always say “I want to go to a church where I am fed” and I always say that I want to go where I can feed.

    In everything I see, I find either a lazy servant or a serving servant.

    I sat with Hunt, we were friends. And like you said of your sister, I was doing rings around him. He would use Catholic scholars to refute Calvinists and he would use liberal scholars to supposedly expose Catholics and he would use allegories as literal and literalize allegories.

    I remember the last comments on a TV where both of us were being interviewed. I told Dave “why is it that when I say the harlot is from Islam, I find literal biblical references and when you say its Rome you are only using allegories”? “find me one reference about Rome being a “harlot” from a literal reference, you won’t and you can’t”. He paused and paused, and was dumbfounded. Yet people look at the name, they seek someone who is recognized by the masses, and when you reach out to them, they undermine you because they reject who is humble and seek who is lofty.

    Glad to read your comment.

    Christus Vincit, Christus Regnat, Christus Imperat

  • Tom_mcewen

    I enjoyed this, there was so much interesting input from protestants about 38,000 different opinions I would say

  • Rose White

    Excuse me saying so but my Bible constantly repeats God’s #1 and #2 commandments – and when I see every Catholic worshipping ‘Mary’ i think ‘that lot are going to be destroyed when Jesus returns just as it says in Revelation 21:19.
    Of course lots of people choose to ignore what God says.

    • If we bring up Baptism, they bring up Mary, and if we bring up Mary, they bring up Baptism. Do you guys ever stick to one subject?

  • No. I simply wait for people to come in here. Some froth. Some are an old witch who are as stale and smelly as an old onion. Some say they are white roses, when they are simply thorns and ugly hags. I just wonder witch one are you?

  • Thank you T-Shea, perhaps you can look for an SSPX church.

  • Thank you Mr. Lannuzzi.