Antichrist Will Soon Enter The Temple of God (Pay Close Attention)

By Walid Shoebat (Shoebat Exclusive)

Hagia Sophia, or Ayasofya in Turkish, is officially a museum: Turkey’s most-visited monument, whose formally neutral status symbolizes the secular nature of the modern Turkish state. But this status is changing when tens of thousands of Muslims have been gathering there on Saturday to pray demanding it will again be turned into a mosque — a dream they believe Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan can fulfill.

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Erdogan is planning to pray inside the Hagia Sophia Temple, reports the Radikal Turkish daily newspaper which will probably be performed during the annual celebrations just before the August elections when Erdogan wants to retake his office of prime-minister.

Erdogan’s government is stepping up its calls to turn the Hagia Sophia into a functioning mosque, but Orthodox Christians complain that this is a desecration of the holiest site in Christendom.

Anatolia Youth Association (AGD) had made a call for the event that came at a time when several radical groups have been discussing the status of the museum.

“This is a serious push to break Ayasofya’s chains,” said Salih Turhan, head of the Anatolia Youth Association, which has collected 15 million signatures to petition for it to be turned back into a mosque.

This despite that the 17th Century Sultan Ahmed Mosque, remains mostly empty of worshippers and Istanbul boasts more than 3,000 mosques. The eyes are glued on desecrating Christianity’s most sacred Temple, the Hagia Sohpia.

“Ayasofya is a symbol for the Islamic world and the symbol of Istanbul’s conquest. Without it, the conquest is incomplete, we have failed to honor Sultan Mehmet’s trust,” he said, citing a 15th Century deed signed by the conquering Caliph and decrying as sin other uses of Hagia Sophia.

It was Erdogan who promoted celebration of the Turkish conquest that turned Constantinople into Istanbul: “Conquest is the removal of shackles on doors and in hearts,” he said to mark the 561st anniversary of the Byzantine defeat. ” Civilization comes with conquest,” he added.

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Erdogan’s talk of conquest, expansion and his reviving of the dead man of Europe is painting his Neo-Ottoman dream as a red dragon. Erdogan is daily becoming an Antichrist who wants to enter a great Christian Temple, yet he is met without any resistance from western Christians. Even the 2012 film depicting the Muslim takeover of the Byzantine capital, “Conquest 1453”, attracted an audience of millions.

From its construction, until 1453, when the Ottoman Empire conquered the city, Hagia Sophia served as an Eastern Orthodox Temple and the seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the Ottomans turned it into a mosque before being secularized and converted to a museum in 1935.

Prominent imams, including the harlot state of Saudi Arabian, Imam Abdullah Basfar, the imam of the Ka’bah in Mecca, Islam’s holiest site was present at the event to lead the prayers. The crowd left the area after the prayer chanting slogans that say Hagia Sophia should be a mosque.

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Orthodox Christians see Hagia Sophia as a Temple to be the most significant structure in all Christian history.

American Evangelicals are either unaware of the significance of such structure or see that the Temple was built by Constantine the Great, which makes it insignificant.

Only time will tell who is right, Constantine had his share of sins and so did Solomon. But all Christians need to pay close attention to Erdogan’s desecrations of significant Christian or Jewish landmarks. Its not only 2 Thessalonians 2 which speaks of desecrating a temple, other text in Isaiah 14 grabs our interest.

But first, in 2 Thessalonians:

“for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who oppose and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (II Thessalonians 2:4)

Many would pause here and stop reading further since such a scenario is far-fetched; a Muslim Antichrist who enters Hagia Sophia is fulfillment? Isn’t Antichrist supposed to enter the Temple in Jerusalem? Indeed. And how could a Muslim declare to be God when Muslims deny that a man can be God?

This requires patience, study and attention. Not comprehending these issues is either caused by the lack of comprehending Islam or even inductively understanding the Bible.

First of all, Antichrist, while he claims titles that belong to deity, he also worships a deity: “He will honor a God of fortresses” (Daniel 11). This is not some allegory for he “acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory” (Daniel 11:39).

He serves a “foreign god,” which he shall “acknowledge” and via warfare he “advances its glory”, the glory of this single-war-god while he proclaims deity. Everything fits, including that he does not honor the “desire of women” (woman’s needs, rights).

It can’t get any clearer than this. Only in Islam can we find Muslim multitudes, while they deny they worship Muhammad and Mahdi, yet indeed they deify them. Muhammad in Islam holds a uniquely exalted status unparalleled by anything or anyone else. He is given the title Al-Maqam-Al-Mahmud (The Glorious).

Christians who know little about Islam, and who go around giving interpretations, complain much asking “how can Antichrist be Muslim when Muslims exclaim, “we do not worship any man, we worship Allah””.

Truth is, Muslims deify Muhammad and Mahdi giving them titles that only belong to god: Al-Maqam-Al-Mahmud (The Glorious One), Awal-Khalq-illah (The first of Creation), Muhammad (The Praised One), Al-Insan Al-Kamel (The Perfect Man), Rahmatan-lil-A’alameen (Mercy to All Mankind), Al-rasul Al-A’tham (The Greatest of All sent by God), Shafi (Healer), Munji (Savior), Mahdi (The Guided One/Deliverer), Al-Mustafa Al-Mukhtar (The Chosen One), Amir (The Prince), Khatimun-Nabiyeen (The Seal of Prophets), Al-Hadi (The Guide), Awal (First), Akher (Last), Sayyid Walad Adam (The Leader of The Sons of Adam) and Al-Siraj Al-Muneer (The Luminous One, The Glowing Lamp). (1)

It’s a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.” (Daniel 11:38)

We can either see a biblical contradiction or we need to reconcile the verses. One of the five main obligatory pillars of Islam is for every Muslim to pay Zakat by giving one-fifth of their income—their gold, and their silver to honor and advance the cause of Allah:

“Zakat is for the poor and the needy, and… to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise.” (Qur’an 9:60).

Zakat is not only for the poor, but a tax to expand the rule of Allah via warfare which the Qur’an is quite clear about:

“And those who hoard up gold and silver and do not spend them in the cause of Allah.” (Qur’an 9:34).

Erdogan by invoking to pray at Hagia Sophia wants to be Sultan Mahdi in order to be exalted above all of creation and literally wants to sit in the Temple of God in Hagia Sophia.

Evangelicals propose the possibility of such temple to be only in Jerusalem, while many Orthodox Christians object to such rebuilding referring to John 4:21: “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.” (John 4:21) They would argue that historically it has been the pagans who wanted to rebuild a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem during the mid fourth century and God struck them dead.(2)

Evangelicals would argue that indeed, God struck them dead because this was not the right timing.

But the solution to the dilemma is that it could be both. Antichrist enters Hagia Sophia and a newly rebuilt temple in Jerusalem as well. 2 Thessalonians does not speak of the Temple being in Jerusalem. But this does not negate that it could be in Jerusalem since Revelation speaks of measuring the altar and that the Gentiles would tread foot in Jerusalem for 42 months …

But Isaiah 14 holds a key. While most brush through the verses in Isaiah 14 by doing selective reading without focusing on every word, verse 13 says:

“I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north.”

What is this “mount of the congregation”?

This declaration is not regarding Lucifer in his angelic stage, but Antichrist “is this the man that made the earth tremble” (v.17) and is said to rule from Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-13) which Christ proclaimed would be the future seat of Satan (Antichrist). This “mount of the congregation” is on the sides of the northern lands in Asia Minor—Turkey. It is in Turkey that the Seven Churches and the Seven Lamp stands were and this is no small issue to ignore.

Others see this “mount of the congregation” as the temple in Jerusalem. This is not without merit: “… the joy of the whole earth, in mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.”

When Turks captured Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Mehmet, an Antichrist (there are many Antichrists before the final one) of the seventh-head (empire) immediately went to the Hagia Sophia and ordered that it be converted into a mosque, he added abominations; the Islamic elements were added such as minarets, the mihrab and the minber all of which were appropriately positioned to face toward Mecca, including two huge marble jars which were brought from Pergamum in the 16C and added written blasphemies in Islamic calligraphy. The names painted on these plaques are Allah, Prophet Mohammed, the first four Caliphs Ebubekir, Omer, Osman and Ali, and the two grandsons of Mohammed, Hasan and Huseyin.

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Muslim blasphemies replaces Christian signs: “We see not our signs” (Psalm 74:9) “Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.” (v. 4)
As for Jerusalem’s Temple, many question, how could Wahhabi Islam allow for a Temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem? But the problem is that too many focus on Wahhabism alone. Turkish brand Sufi Islam is a bit craftier and the Turks even already have the Quranic alkaline verses ready:

“And who is more unjust than he who forbids that in places for the worship of God, God’s name should be celebrated?-whose zeal is (in fact) to ruin them? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is nothing but disgrace in this world, and in the world to come, an exceeding torment.” (Koran 2:214)

Today, the most fit to bring reconciliation between Shiite and Sunni, Jew and Arab are the Sufi Muslim Turks in which it will produce the Antichrist. The Sufis of Turkey are Sunni, this brand of Islam is different from the Wahhabist which is vehemently anti-Shiite.

Turkey has great reverence to the Shiite icons of Ali, Hassan and Hussein, the Shiite historic and religious martyrs and icons whose names are erected on plagues in Hagia-Sophia. They are the most fit to allow a Temple to be rebuilt on the Temple Mount. Sinem Tezyapar is an executive producer on Turkish Television states:

“As a devout Muslim, I take pleasure when Jews pray to Almighty God, and their praying anywhere in the world, including at the Temple Mount, would be a glad tiding for me as well. As a devout Muslim, it would be a joy for me to see Prophet Solomon’s Temple rebuilt as well. No, you did not hear me wrong. Prophet Solomon’s Temple being rebuilt in all its magnificence and glory would be a great delight for me, as it would be to any Muslim.”

Hagia Sophia is the most important Christian Temple in the East, built in the mid-4th century and then rebuilt during the reign of Justinian the Great. It should be a concern for every Christian on the face of the globe.

And in case people want to argue that Hagia Sophia was not considered the “Temple of God” for Christians, they need to search history. Sophia is the Wisdom of God. This phenomenon has always caused a lot of interpretational difficulties for researchers, resulting for example in the diversity of translations for Hagia Sophia temples in the literature (church/cathedral of the Holy Wisdom, God’s Wisdom, Divine Wisdom or even – incorrectly – St. Sophia).

Nevertheless, the problem to whom, in the mind of the Byzantines themselves, the sanctuaries of that name were dedicated is worth a closer look. It is even more interesting when we take into consideration the cathedral church in Constantinople, the most important temple of the empire and the whole East Christian civilization.

HAGIA SOHPIA, A TEMPLE OF GOD?
An excellent research by Zofia Brzozowska of the Katedra Historii Bizancjum sheds much light to answer this question. The understanding of the Hagia Sophia cathedral as a temple dedicated to the Son of God is also characteristic of several writers contemporary to the founder of the reconstruction of the Constantinopolitan basilica – Justinian I the Great. Procopius of Caesarea (ca. 500 – ca. 560) repeatedly mentions in his writings that the main metropolitan church was known as the church of the Holy Wisdom, because it was a name recognized at that time by the Byzantines as the most suitable for God as a name of his sanctuary. (3)

An interesting composition, containing a detailed description concerning the construction of the temple of Hagia Sophia, was written probably during the reign of emperor Basil I (867–886). In this work we can discover a number of essential components of East Christian sophiology. First of all, just like in the case of Byzantine writers of the 5th–6th century, the anonymous author says that the Constantinopolitan basilica was (in the eyes of the inhabitants of the empire) a church dedicated to the Only Begotten Son and Word of God. (4)

In the 11th century an attempt to explain the invocation of the Constantinopolitan cathedral an amazing construction to foreigners—was undertaken by a West European author. An anonymous traveler from Tarragona in his description of the capital of Byzantium emphasized that its main temple is dedicated to the Son of God, and the name Hagia Sophia points to one of the attributes of the Creator, the Wisdom of God (Latin Sancta Sapientia), and not – as it was claimed in the West in his times – a saint named Sophia. (5)

A clear statement that Hagia Sophia is a temple dedicated to Jesus, the Son of God can also be found in a medieval Byzantine normative source. A Chrysobull by Emperor Manuel Comnenus, dated 1153, states that the Constantinopolitan cathedral was built in honour of the Saviour. (6) Interestingly, the theme also appears on the pages of a 13th century. Source of Slavic provenance (Old Russian), known as the Pilgrim’s Books (Книги Паломник), written by Dobryna Jadrejkovič from Novgorod the Great, also known in the literature under the monastic name (Anthony of Novgorod), who traveled to Constantino- ple between 1200 and 1204. In the itinerary written after the return, he described many Byzantine objects of the capital, including the Hagia Sophia basilica, whose name according to him should be understood as the Temple of Wisdom and Word of God. (7)

In the work dedicated to Theodosius of Tărnovo the author calls the Constantinopolitan Hagia Sophia – a temple of the “Wisdom of God’s Word.” (8)

Needless to say Sophia cathedrals used to be built also in the area of Slavia Orthodoxa. A basilica dedicated to the Wisdom of God in Serdica (Sofia) comes probably from the era of the first Bulgarian state, although a number of researchers believe that it should be dated much earlier – to the 4th cent. At the turn of the 10th and 11th cent., a temple under the same invocation was built in Ohrid and some time later in Sliven. The most spectacular temples of Pre-Mongol Rus’ were also dedicated to the Divine Wisdom. The construction of the Sophia cathedral in the capital of Rus’ – Kiev, began probably in 1037. The temple of the Holy Wisdom in Novgorod the Great was built between 1045 and 1050 (probably in the place of an earlier wooden church under the same invocation, which had been erected as early as in 989). Moreover, in the 1060s foundations for a third Old Russian cathedral of Sophia at Polotsk were being prepared.

But the question about Hagia Sophia in Constantinople looks different. The preserved source material justifies the thesis that in Byzantium, regardless of the era, the cathedral basilica was conceived primarily as a temple dedicated to Christ – the Incarnate Word of God.

Most of the Eastern Church Fathers and later Byzantine writers (Justin the Martyr, Athenagoras of Athens, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Methodius of Olympus, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius of Alexandria, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Alexandria, Theodoret, Atha- nasius the Sinaite, patriarch of Constantinople Germanus, Theodore the Studite, Symeon the Metaphrast, Symeon the New Theologian and Philotheus Coccinus) leave no doubt to the readers that the personified Wisdom of God they meet in the Old Testament, is a symbolic representation of Christ – the Logos before Incarnation.

Therefore, Hagia Sophia, having been dedicated to the Son of God, does qualify as Temple of God since Jesus is God.

In Second Thessalonians, it does not specify which Temple Antichrist sits in, it could be Hagia Sophia or Jerusalem, or even with all the other verses, both.

While we all argue the different biblical points, one thing is for sure, our silence on Hagia Sophia while millions of Muslims surround it like wolves, is shameful.

EZEKIEL 38 FORMING ITS ALLIANCES
On top of all of this, Turkey is extending its political influence and is courting Algeria. Erdogan has his eyes on North Africa. Algeria is one of the leading trading partners of Turkey in Africa.

Turkey is one of Algeria’s top ten external trading partners. Trade between the two countries reached almost $5bn. Algeria is the ninth biggest producer of natural gas in the world and has the tenth biggest proven reserves and is the third biggest natural gas supplier for Turkey, after Russia and Iran. Ankara is looking to establish more stable alliances that would withstand the ongoing regional turbulence. Algiers has an easy stepping stone: the common Ottoman past. Since the independence from France in 1962, Algerians have been rediscovering their Ottoman past. Recently, Turkey’s foreign policy efforts in the Middle East and North Africa region. Turkey is now one of the most popular tourist destinations for Algerians, with the number of Algerian tourists doubling by almost 50 percent from 2011 to 2013.

Also, as we argued for two decades, today Turkey is even building strong economic relations with countries with which it shares common culture and historical bonds and affirmed by Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekçi on Sunday. Speaking at the Turkey-Turkmenistan Joint Economic Commission meeting in Ankara, Zeybekç said developing relations with countries like Turkmenistan had been among the foreign policy priorities of Turkey in recent years.

“It is essential to launch a transport network comprising Turkey, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan,” he said.

The activeness of Turkey in Central Asia has grown; and the reason is not only the interests of Turkey, but also that the U.S is trying to influence the region through Ankara. Islamic Central Asia is not a priority for the U.S. European states, prevention of rapprochement with Russia, and other states of the Asian-Pacific Region are priorities.

In all this we see an Antichrist state (Turkey) ally with Iran, North Africa (Libya/Algiers) and the North Quarters of Beth Togarmah.

So how soon is “soon” to see the full force of Antichrist? The next decade will reveal much and the players will be ready, so stay tuned.

REFERENCES
(1) Muslim scholar, Dr. G. F. Haddad, in an article with a blasphemous title, The Best of Creation states: “[There is no] other Prophet [other than Muhammad] or angel-brought-near with whom Allah Most High shared as many of His own Names in the Qur’an as He did with the Prophet. With respect to his foremost name– Muhammad–peace be upon him, consider the poetic verse of Hassan ibn Thabit (RA): ‘And He drew out for him [a name] from His own Name so as to dignify him greatly: The Owner of the Throne is the Glorious [Mahmûd], and this is the Praiseworthy [Muhammad]!’” 127 In other words, the name Muhammad is not a mere name for a man, according to the Qur’an, Allah, whose name is Mahmud, or the Glorious or the Praised One, named Muhammad after Himself. This is quite the claim. This is a further exaltation than the name Yeshua, which in English means Jehovah is our Salvation. Muhammad literally means The Praised One—The Most Praised.

(2) “Julian, who in his third consulship had taken as his colleague Sallustius, the prefect of Gaul, now entered on his fourth year, and by a novel arrangement took as his colleague a private individual; an act of which no one recollected an instance since that of Diocletian and Aristobulus. And although, foreseeing in his anxious mind the various accidents that might happen, he urged on with great diligence all the endless preparations necessary for his expedition, yet distributing his diligence everywhere; and being eager to extend the recollection of his reign by the greatness of his exploits, he proposed to rebuild at a vast expense the once magnificent temple of Jerusalem, which after many deadly contests was with difficulty taken by Vespasian and Titus, who succeeded his father in the conduct of the siege. And he assigned the task to Alypius of Antioch, who had formerly been proprefect of Britain. But though Alypius applied himself vigorously to the work, and though the governor of the province co-operated with him, fearful balls of fire burst forth with continual eruptions close to the foundations, burning several of the workmen and making the spot altogether inaccessible. And thus the very elements, as if by some fate, repelling the attempt, it was laid aside.” (Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman History, 23.1-3, trans. C.D.YONGE)

(3) Procopius Caesariensis, De bellis, III, 6, 26, ed. H.B. Dewing, London 1916 (cetera: Procopius, De bellis): Σοφίαν καλοῦσιν οἱ Βυζάντιοι τὸν νεὼν, ταύτην δὴ μάλιστα τῷ Θεῷ πρέπειν τὴν ἐπωνυμίαν ἡγούμενοι; Pro- copius Caesariensis, De aedificiis, I, 1, 21, ed. H.B. Dewing, London 1940 (cetera: Procopius, De ae- dificiis): Σοφίαν καλοῦσιν οἱ Βυζάντιοι τὸν νεὼν ἐπικαιριώτατα τῷ Θεῷ τὴν ἐπωνυμίαν ἀπεργασάμενοι. A.M. Am- mann, Darstellung und Deutung der Sophia im Vorpetrinischen Russland, OCP 4, 1938, p. 123.

(4) In that way it took its name: the Church of Divine Wisdom (Hagia Sophia), expressed [in the matter] the Word of God – Narratio de structura, 10, p. 418; Г. Флоровский, op . cit .; С. Золотарев, София Пре- мудрость Божия…, p. 244. *

(5) K.N. Ciggaar, Une Description de Constantinople dans le Tarragonensis 55, REB 53, 1995, p. 129‒130; Таррагонский аноним, О граде Константинополе . Латинское описание реликвий Константи- нополя XI в., ed. Л.К.М. Санчес, [in:] Реликвии в искусстве и культуре восточно-христианского мира, Москва 2000, p. 165; С. Золотарев, София Премудрость Божия…, p. 244.

(6) G. Dagron, op . cit ., p. 231, 299–300; M.L. Fobelli, op . cit ., p. 168.

(7) A.M. Ammann, op. cit., p. 131; G. Dagron, op . cit ., p. 300; О. Этингоф, Иконография Иисуса Хри- ста как образа воплощенной Софии Премудрости Божией, [in:] София Премудрость Божия…, p. 59; С. Золотарев, София Премудрость Божия…, p. 244

(8) Пространно житие на Теодосий Търновски от патриарх Калист, [in:] Стара българска литература в седем тома, vol. IV, Житиеписни творби, ed. К. Иванова, София 1986, p. 464.

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  • Thomas Branigan

    I had no knowledge regarding the significance of, nor the meaning of the Hagia Sophia. Thank you for educating me. I only knew that Constantinople fell to the “Turks” in 1453 and was, at some point, renamed Istanbul. in the Ottoman empire.

    • Thomas, just so you know, Constantinople retained its name until 1930, when the Turks legally changed it to Istanbul (same name, just in Turkish) under Ataturk, the secularist leader who killed off the last vestiges of the Ottoman elite until today.

  • Phil Curtis

    Thank you Walid, brilliant article as usual and well researched.

  • Lidia

    I have this feeling that one day it will become a Christian church again. And when this happens, it will be a great victory for God.

  • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

    The Church of the Holy Wisdom built by Constantine, preached in by St John Chrysostom, was destroyed in the Nika Riots in January 532. Forty days after the fire, Justinian the Great laid the cornerstone for the present Church. He set two contractors with competing teams of workers to build the two halves of the Church, & so it was completed in five years. When Justinian entered the finished building for the first time, he is said to have exclaimed, “SOLOMON, I HAVE OUTDONE THEE!”

    There is some history behind this: a church in Byzantium build by Dowager Empress Anicia Juliana, in 523. This was, inside, a replica of “Holy Zion, Mother of Churches,” — (still standing in Jerusalem at the time), & the church was on the second floor-level, an “upper room;” — but its exterior dimensions were a Byzantine rendering of the Biblical dimensions of Solomon’s Temple. (Cf. Sir Martin Harrison, “A Temple for Byzantium.”)

    Solomon, for all his faults that we see, was also the King remembered for Wisdom. To some degree, he was seen to prefigure Christ, “greater than Solomon” — but there Was a comparison to be made. JESUS, as Incarnate Wisdom (Luke 2:41-51), is “the greater Solomon.” He teaches the teachers of Israel, chaired (kathez-omenon) in their midst, both “hearing them, and *posing questions* for them.” — as His Mother Mary related to St Luke.
    “Istanbul” is believed to reflect the Greek, “eis tin polin” – into the City.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      As I recall from one of our Greek Orthodox friends – the liturgy was interrupted during the siege, and the priest ‘disappeared’ into a wall -a wall that is told the Muslims still will not, out of fear, tear down. Assuming that the Orthodox celebrate Mass daily, would this not have been one instance of the ‘anti-christ’ stopping the daily sacrifice?

      • billobillo54

        The Anti-Christ stopping the daily sacrifice is clearly a reference to his stopping the daily Hebrew scrifice (e.g. Daniel 9: 25-27, esp v. 27). We are commanded by the gospel of Matthew via the prophecy of Jesus to understand this (i.e. Matthew 24:15). Jesus warned Jews (as He only spoke to Jews in general with a few exceptions) thus: “… then let those who are in JUDEA flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the SABBATH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED). As you can see, this even is exclusively related to Jews and the Temple in Jerusalem. And, the sobering aspect of this is the stage is being set now for the betrayal of the Jews by the world, the evil intervention of the Islamic powers and the extreme evil of the PA with the presence of 500,000 Jews currently in “Judea” aka, “The West Bank.” The Jews will, once the “abomination of desolation” occurs, have to immediately flee Judea for thier lives. Sadly, many will not.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I understand the ‘final’ application of Dan 9 in light of Jesus’ words. Ecclesiastes 1:9 sets forth that “There is nothing new under the sun. Whatever has been, will be”. Saint Sophronius (Patriarch of Jerusalem) met with Omar (Caliph) – when Omar stood on the temple mount, and stated that it was the spot that Mohammed ascended into heaven, and that he intended to build a mosque there, Sophronius declared “surely this is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet”. He also is recorded as saying that Mahomet (Mohammed) is the chief rival of Jesus Christ. Omar commenced building a mosque, but it continually fell down – he inquired of the Jews there (in subjugation) why, and they informed him that it was because of the cross on a shrine there – Omar ordered the cross be torn down. Later in the same century is when the Dome of The Rock was built, (trampling down Jerusalem by gentiles) Many of the prophecies have been fulfilled – in their ‘first’, or long term application. There will be the final, short-term fulfillments in the last days.

          • Steve Smith

            And Julie if look closely at the dome of the rock, does it not look like a 6th ct Byzantine church. THAT IS BECOUSE THE CHRISTIANS WERE FORCED TO PULL DOWN THEIR CHURCH AND BUILD IT from the very stones of that church.
            The colums have the monogram of the Emperor Justinian.
            Why do people think the butchering of sheep is Gods WILL did not Christ’s death on the cross put a end to it?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            It’s not God’s will – Satan still has power and will use it till he is destroyed totally. Jesus warned us ‘not be afraid of those who can destroy your bodies, but those who can destroy your soul.’ ” I send you as sheep amongst wolves”. Jesus death on the cross destroyed death – we can have eternal life.

          • Proudvet56

            Julie. I think Steve was referring to the blood sacrifices under old testament law. They are of no use today, because Jesus, a thinking, rational, flesh being(though he was also the Son of God) willingly gave up his life for us. He was without sin. Blood sacrifice was of animals. They to were innocent because they had no will, and did not know evil. From what I’m learning that is very important. Believe me, before I decided to “ahem” start behaving myself I thought God, and the Jews were just sadists, and decided to take their anger out on animals. But I’m still new to this, so bear with me. :<)

          • Proudvet56

            I agree Steve. Jesus dying on the cross put an end to blood sacrifices.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I see what you’re saying – since we are called sheep, and many of the articles here are about the sheep being slaughtered, I assumed he meant us. Many Christians I know today do NOT BELIEVE that God will allow anything to harm so much “as a hair on our head” – many denominations teach this – God is ONLY to ‘bless’ us, NEVER to discipline us. Opposite of what I believe. God disciplines those He loves, otherwise we are not His sons and daughters.

          • billobillo54

            Discipline is not wrath or condemnation: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). You are absolutely correct about the necessity of discipline. Also, God uses the buffeting of Satan to build the saint. “My sheep hear my voice and they shall never perish.” (John 10)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            At least you agree (kind of) with something I said. The point I should have, and I almost edited it in, was free will. If someone is going to kill me, I’m going down unless God has some super important mission left for me, (like the 2 witnesses). So many today believe that we have some supernatural umbrella above us that doesn’t allow evil to happen to us. I think that is heresy. Even Paul had prayed, I think 3 times, to be ‘healed’, Jesus said “my grace is sufficient for you’. Then when bad things happen, a child killed, dies of cancer, these people leave God because they’ve been taught otherwise.

          • billobillo54

            I do agree with what you said. And, I love you in the Lord.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Awesome. I love you too. I love even the ones that I’m hard on . We have to love each other! Even our enemies – that’s the hard one we need extra grace for.

          • billobillo54

            Amen Julie, Dear One. You are right again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Steve Smith

            WHY do they insist on a second temple has to be built with animal sacrifice. when I read, and was taught that it was talking about the church the Euchirist would be stoped.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            God did declare in Malachi 1 to close the temple gates, that he would no longer accept their sacrifices – because they were defiled. Malachi then proceeds to talk about the gentiles, the nations, being taken into God’s covenantal family, and that they would offer incense and offerings to Him that He would accept. The temple was closed in 70 AD. I don’t know that if the Jews build a third temple if it would necessarily be animal sacrifices. They had other sacrifices too. The Bread and the Wine of the Presence, the Holy Bread that Jesus referenced when the disciples were plucking heads of grain. Don’t know. We’ll know when it happens.

          • Steve Smith

            Sorry I ment 3d temple

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I knew you did.

          • Steve Smith

            Julie if you don’t mind could you look over my conversation with concerned. I may have missed something in English, thanks Stefan.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The conversation here? It all looks ok to me.

          • Steve Smith

            I was confused he started out with this spiritual thing then made more clear in his last statement. thanks:)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you on facebook?

          • Steve Smith

            yes

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Can I discuss with you offsite?

          • Woody

            Sure – you are pretty

          • Proudvet56

            This is getting frustrating for me Julie. So many doctrines, so many churches calling themselves the only true church. But I do see one thing. Many non Catholic, non Jewish believers come here, and pick fights, with this sort of holier than thou arrogance. But as of yet I have not seen that from a Catholic, or a Jew. Not once. So I don’t know, I figure God had his reason for leading me to Walids page, so we’ll see. But reading is very hard for me, so that slows down the learning process a bit. LOL God bless

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Your words are true – we are always in the position of having defend our faith to the attackers. Even when I show scripture and history of the early Church and their beliefs, they ignore it, then proceed to another front in their attack. What is most amazing to me – they stand in the position that their doctrine is right – when they have NO historical precedent that their beliefs existed in the first 1500 yrs of Christianity. How does one measure what orthodox belief is? Exactly how the early church decided it – what has been the faith from the beginning. If you struggle with reading, try going to youtube and watch videos. I you want to that, I’ll give you the names of some good ones.

          • Proudvet56

            Ok Julie, and thanks.

          • Tuba

            “Many non Catholic, non Jewish believers come here, and pick fights, with this sort of holier than thou arrogance. But as of yet I have not seen that from a Catholic, or a Jew. Not once.”

            Are you sure, interesting, I always see the opposite, catholics here are most arrogant ones, they are saying all the time that they are one true church, others are just idiots, weirdo, embeciles! I think I started a fire here, it was because of their unbiblical dogmas, they could not defend their claims with bible. Always they pick one verse, but they ignore others from the bible. So do not be blind! You do not need to belong to a state like church or denomination. None of bible believer would say their church is the only true church, you can not here this from them. But you would hear from them all the time the advice of being serious about word of God and reject the teaching that contrary to bible.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The great art historian, Andre Grabar’s, son (Ivan??) wrote a fine article on the Dome of the Rock. Byzantine Christian artisans were forced to do all the work on it, as the muslims at the time had not acquired such skills. Also, the dedicatory inscription was later changed, c 691, for another ruler. The building was already about 30 years old at that time.
            There are rare b/w photos from the gallery, looking down on the top of the Rock. It is very clear, by photo-metrics, that the E-W rectangle on the top surface is exactly the dimensions needed for the original Ark of the Covenant to stand. It would have been on an E-W axis in order for the Levites to carry it directly to the Holy of Holies, and set it down. (It was not set “altar-wise” as in a church.)

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Amazing info.

          • Steve Smith

            Father. my vid is up that I posted in a comment. I would like to know what you think of the reconstruction, and why expose all these wonderful mosaics only to cover them back up?

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Steve, I’ve written a reply twice. I have no idea why neither one has appeared. I added a video link for the Sanctuary itself. Maybe that’s what did it?
            The video you linked is quite fine. My only regret is that the mosaic of the Theotokos in the apse is not shown as flanked by the Archangels, Michael and Gabriel. These are all from right after the 7th Ecumenical Council (Nicaea, 787), but were plastered over by 815 (let the Episcopalian understand!) These were Not the mosaics dedicated by St Photios, in 867, as was often assumed. The plaster concealed them until the 1300s, when an earthquake dislodged the plaster.
            Of course the wicked Ottomans plastered them over again.

            The meticulous work of restoration since 1935 has revealed the wondrous, inspired work of Byzantine artists, a world cultural treasure, to be sure!
            It would be criminal to allow Erdogan’s “followers” to “pressure” him into reverting this to a mosque again.
            Write the Turkish Embassy in DC to protest!

          • Steve Smith

            Same problem here, post then puff gone, this is a subject that I like. Or fathers amaze me in the skill that they had. Even in our modern world we can not reproduce the quality of Roman craftsmen. Take Roman glass, the only thing we have to compare it to is satellite glass or cut cage glass the only why to do that is with a diamond wheel.

            I think that the video was made before the angels were uncovered so most people have no idea what should be there.
            The Sanctuary looked nice but I think the icons would have been on the columns and larger. The ciborium above the altar looks like it has been reused and the iconostasis too (by the moslems),what do you think?
            A new twist on the seraphs on the pendentive, a guy on a survey team noticed that the wings of each of them are in a different position, and if you put them together it makes a moving picture show, wonder if the romans knew of animation, looks like it, does it not?

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The mosaics I mentioned were uncovered decades ago. It may just have complicated things for the video-maker.
            Very interesting about the seraphim, indeed! Maybe if Hagia Sophia “leaves your head spinning” by its magnificence, you would “see” the animation?!
            The recycling of pieces by the Ottomans is not at all unlikely.

          • Woody

            Hey, Fr – what do you know of the “Lapsis?” I understand that there were a lot of them (more than I thought) [not critical for none of us know for certain what we would do in the same set of circumstances–but I understand the Pope at the time had a hard time in knowing what to do about them – I think he did the right thing in the end though… agree? [I think of goofy things]

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Just to be sure, I entered “Lapsis” in google search & found it had a bunch of listings for Minecraft, a computer game!

            I’m sure you mean “Lapsi” (Latin, plural) – Those who had lapsed from the Faith during persecution.
            St Cyprian of Carthage wrote about them in the mid-3rd Century, at the time of the Decian persecution (Emperor Decius). Various positions were taken. Some hardliners actually split from the Church over a “too easy” reception of the Lapsi back into communion.
            The division over this point may have contributed to the ease of muslim conquest of North Africa in the late 600s. Christians remained divided, seriously weakening them to withstand the on-slaughter by the Infidel.
            Wikipedia and Catholic Encyclopedia have articles on line about this for more detail.

            Interestingly, those who “handed over the Scriptures” to the persecuting authorities were “traditores” – from which we get the word “traitors.”
            Today, people think they should give away the Scriptures to non-believers, in hopes of converting them. How times have changed! We can print Bibles today; back then, they were hand-copied, and very much rarer. The persecutors were trying to wipe out all copies of the Bible, to suppress the Faith completely. But we also know that, out of context, the Bible can be very wrongly interpreted by some. At 12 years old, Madelein Murray (O’Hair) tried to read the Bible in a weekend, & became an “atheist”!

          • Woody

            Yah, I misspelled it never thinking to drop the “s” so you gots it right (how’s that for English?) As I recall the Pope did offer them forgiveness. Did you see the DVD ST Barbara–you might like it but not sure why she was the most popular saint of the Middle Ages (not in English-use subtitles but it showed me what it was like to live under the Roman jerks…I don’t think the Romans thinking they were “gods” until after Jesus time—I am reading Eusebius and like it; but he cheats – copies a lot of other then current historians and then repeats it.

          • Woody

            Still around-can’t seem to find anyone nowadays; i heard an interesting discussion on Catholic Answers and I find it unusual;
            The guy said:
            “my wife died in 1992; If I were to offer a prayer for her soul today that she go to Heaven (and if she was destined somewhere else–God could still honor my prayer and save her soul since He exists outside of “time and space.” I think yes it makes sense to me–wow – pretty deep too! Now why didn’t I think of that?

          • Johnny Marvéll

            Woody: if she was catholic, she was a heretic. You can’t go to heaven by not following the one true Catholic (universal) and Apostolic church which is the ORTHODOX church. Consequently, not follow Orthodox doctrine – which is the only one that has remained unchanged since the time of Christ – won’t get you into heaven anytime soon.
            And before you say anything, ignorance is no excuse. If she was too ignorant to understand the Roman heresies, she won’t be going upstairs. That’s the reality of things.

          • Woody

            Don’t want to wear you out, but a thought occurred to me the other day:

            It seems that in the Blessed Trinity, the 3 Persons in One God, One Person seems to be able to hide something from the Other person for Jesus said when asked, “when will the End Times Be,” and He answered “only the Father in Heaven Knows…” How can this be?
            Put on your best Chasuble for this one…

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            There is perfect Communion — & therefore communication — between the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. None is “concealing” anything from the Others, or it would create a situation of deceit, which is impossible. But the Eternal Son is humble in His love and service to the Father, and patient for the time that the Father has chosen.
            Jesus, in His Incarnate Life, as the Man on earth, had “emptied Himself”, divested of the exercise of some of His Divine Powers, without ceasing to be fully God.
            Allow that there are mysteries in every relationship we know, even in this world. When we raise this consideration to the level of the Divine, why should we expect to have all questions answered right now? Allow that the Mystery of the Holy Trinity will continue to be revealed, scintilla by scintilla, for all of eternity. We cannot comprehend the Glory of God but in the smallest portions, but we should nevertheless, aim to grow in knowledge, “from glory to glory.”
            We should study the Scripture, and learn what IS revealed, and seek on our knees to know God, one-on-one; but He will always exceed the capacity of our minds. We can compare what we learn with what the Church has known, to corroborate our own investigations of the Divine Mysteries, so we “stay on track”.

          • Woody

            Thanks for the clarification…Julie says HI and hopes you are okay since she missed you for a while.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            I’ve been very busy. I ask your prayers. Difficult encounters this week, esp. Tues & Thurs. Thanks.

          • Woody

            You’re in my Divine Mercy daily afternoon prayers–have you read St Faustina’s Diary – Boy was she a “hoot.”
            A lady at Church told me she should have been on Valium.
            This is funny – she told Jesus she felt like the most like the lowest of the lowest person on earth. He smiled and said, You are the lowest person on earth (forget the actual words) but we know He was having fun with her…

        • Julie LaBrecque

          This prophecy also applied to 70 AD – read Josephus’ accounts of the events when the Temple was destroyed – the Christians fled and were all spared. The Jewish women were ravaged, even the pregnant ones, their bellies cut open by the attackers searching for gold they may have swallowed.

          • billobillo54

            Yes and No. First, yes, as you understand, there is an application and reapplication of these prophecies. However, the prophecy in Matthew 24 refers strictly to the end of the age. If you look at the account in Luke 21 it is as follows: “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” So Jesus talked about both the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the “abomination that cuases desolation” in the future at the end of the age. The text in Luke 21 refers specifically to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by Titus and the Tenth Legion “Fretensus” (as recorded by Josephius). The text in Matthew 24 includes similarities and overlaps (hence the reapplication of prophecy) but is a strict reference to the end of the age and applies to the current situation in Israel.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So instead of just agreeing with me, you have to play ring-around-the-rosy to agree.

          • billobillo54

            No, it’s not “ring around the rosey.” I meant no disrespect nor was being petty. The prophecy in Matthew 24 is directly speaking to the end of the age. Notice that Jesus stated that those in “Judea” must flee (Matthew 24). He also tied this prophecy to the “abomination of desolation spoken of by …Daniel.” Many, especially those who endorse Replacement or Fulfillment theology assert that the prophecy in Matthew 24 applied to the events in 70 AD and therefore dismiss theologically the nation of Israel currently (I am not implying that you do this). For that reason the distinctions of the two prophecies are important. Matthew 24 is specifically and precisely referring to events at the end of the age. Conversely, the events in Luke 21 that I cited earlier are specifically and precisely referring to the events that occurred in 70 AD. Those in Jerusalem (not Judea) are to flee (Luke 21). Then the Jews will be dispersed “until the times of the gentiles” are fulfilled (Luke 21). The differences are very important and are tied to two different periods of time and two different outcomes. The “overlap” has to do with the common features of the two different prophecies. Both deal with Israel. Both deal with Judea (in that Jerusalem is part of Judea). Both include destruction against our beloved Jews. Both contain a destruction against the Jews perpetrated by the power of the anti-Christ (see Daniel 9:26-27). Both will include a dispersion of the Jewish people (see Zechariah 13:7-9). When Jesus was telling the disciples about the events that would transpire in 70 AD (e.g. Luke 21:20-24) and events that would transpire at the end of the age, the disciples heads were reeling, they had no understanding of the events that would soon transpire in the Life of Jesus and lacked the perspective that we have in understanding the (to them) prophetic future. The Holy Spirit made sure these were recorded in the text of Scripture for our understanding.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            There will be another time (42 months) of the gentiles trampling down the Holy City – the first time (long-term) began in 688AD -Dome of the Rock up to the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel in 1967 (solar month has 30.44 days), then convert days to years. Daniel 12:11 (1290 ‘days’, convert to years for first time application) was fulfilled, began in 583 BC up to 688 AD. Daniel 12:12 (1335 days) was fulfilled with the Battle of Tours in 732

          • billobillo54

            I wonder what the Roman Magesterium would say about this interpretation? Or, for that matter, I wonder what a more influencial authority like Scott Haun or Marcus Grody would say? I KNOW what Francis would say: “Who am I to judge.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I think you are inadvertently trying to put on equal footing soteriological interpretations versus eschatological interpretations. I have no authority to make binding on the faithful, or myself, any private interpretation -neither does Scott Hahn – He, like others, is an apologist, not an magisterial interpreter.

          • rayzzor

            You talk too much.

          • Woody

            Return to school and spend another 25 years and maybe you will catch up with her knowledge and the Truth Jesus promised.

          • Proudvet56

            LOL!! Woody, your a better diplomat than I could ever dream of being. God bless

          • Proudvet56

            Yeah, so butt out punk!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why do you have animus for Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi? Is it because they are converts? They studied the Bible (saw problems in their evangelical protestant theology), studied the early church fathers, and came into the Church?

          • billobillo54

            I have no animus. I actually find them pleasant and even comical. Another comedy is to see Catholics all over the world (who obviously never crack open the Bible themselves) reiterate Scott’s recent theological “discoveries” (e.g. the “keys to the kingdom” and Queen Mother from Solomon’s rule, etc). It’s like hearing a parrot. By the way, I personally watched Marcus with a convert from a nondenominational Christian Church in California tell the convert several times that “yes, salvation is by faith alone.” That’s because the poor kid kept telling him on his show (which was amazing), “you keep telling me Marcus, that salvation is by faith alone….I will not accept anything except faith alone.” And Marccus kept affirming it. If you watch Marcus and Scott (as I’m sure you do with regularity) you will note that especially Marcus has begun for quite some time now with regularity to lament the aweful spiritual state of the lifetime practicing Catholics within the church. He’ll say something like this to an evangelical convert: “You know, it’s sad to see how very few Catholics who have alwys been in the church have the appreciation or the zeal we have considering the rich tradition and the wonderful truth of the church.” The convert will agree. The kid that Marcus was affirming that salvation is by faith alone also told Marcus that: “you know, only about 3% of the people in the Catholic Church are not spiritually dead.” Of course, Marcus, quickly changed the subject as he usually does when a convert dredges up any criticism. I agree from my extensive experience that only a very few have any zeal (unlike the evangelical church, which has a much higher percentage of zealous saints). I think the reason is there are so few conversions in the RCC. Because the RCC refuses to preach the gospel aof grace and provide any (Scriptural) assurance of salvation. People are Baptised as infants (never respond the the gospel); are Confirmed (never express faith unto salvation in Jesus); go through the ritual of First Communion (never hear or respond to the simple gospel message: “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” as Paul preached to the Phillipian jailer); Go to confession several times a year (are still not converted-still do not understand that THEY are the Thief on the Cross with Jesus). Get married in the Church (still are into rituals and formulas and think that mere church membership ensures their entry into Purgatory (a place emphatically denied by and called “pagan” and/or “gnostic” by Origen, Ireneaus, Clement of Alexandria and Justin Martyr and with no basis inthe Bible or the NT) and die receiving Extreme Unction. Yet they never knew Christ. I can absolutely tell you that this is the overwhelming perception and expreience I had as a Catholic. So, I contend for the simple truth of the gospel as spoken by Jesus throughout all of the gospels (e.g. John 3:16). And, Jesus in John Ch 6 was not talking about the Eucharist. Go to the end of the discourse and note Jesus’ statement: “The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you they are Spirit and they are life.” Peter responded correctly to Jesus: “Who shall we go to? You have the words of eternal life.” The gospel is the foundation preached, spoken and believed is “the power of God unto salvation TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES…” (ROMANS 1:16)…I LOV E YOU IN THE LORD JULIE AND GOD BLESS YOU FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The flesh profits nothing – you’ve just proved too much- if you interpret that to mean Jesus’ flesh, you have just denied the incarnation and the entire gospel. The Greek used there is “ho sarx” – men’s fleshly, carnal reasoning or understanding. It is used in the same gospel of in 8:15 “You judge according to the flesh (ho sarx). If you will read your own quote, “it’s sad to se how very few………..have the appreciation or zeal we have considering the RICH TRADITION and the WONDERFUL TRUTH of the Church.” You can deny infant baptism all you want, Jesus said ” NO ONE enters”, that every solitary person on earth. Maybe you deny original sin. It has to be washed away as well. You take ‘believe’ as pure mental assent, as opposed to be a disciple, which means you do as the Lord instructed. You might be surprised what words are actually spoken during confirmation – Not only do they declare that Jesus is their Lord and savior, they refute Satan and all his empty lies. You don’t believe in matter conveying grace- that’s the bottom line in your theology. Why was Nathan the leper healed in water? “And God looked at everything he had made, and found it very good.’ He made them, for His purposes. Water to convey the spirit in baptism, oil for healing “is anyone sick-call the presbyters of the church and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person…if he has committed any sins they are forgiven.” You would leave out the oil. Mary Magdalene anointed with him, and this story is to be told as a memorial for her. People were healed by Peter’s shadow, and by aprons, handkerchiefs that had touched Paul. Elisha’s bones raised a man from the dead. Peter prayed for DEAD Tabitha, and raised her to life, but you slander Catholics for praying for dead people. David prayed AND fasted for dead Saul & Jonathan. What did God tell Moses to do “Take Joshua, and put your hands on him…invest him with some of your own power, that the whole Israelite community may obey him. If you were Moses, you would not have put your hands on him. Sad you don’t think marriage is a sacrament – your loss – marriage fulfills Gods HOLY purpose – to create new life – He gives that to us, but modern day Christians say NO, we don’t want a bunch of kids, they are a burden, but we still want the pleasure of sex with no burden of a new life to care for. PROFANE – using something sacred, set aside by God as holy, and using for common use.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If zeal is the measure of one denomination’s worth with God, then the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses ( and Muslims) have everybody beat.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Quotes from the church fathers you mentioned:
            ORIGEN – ‘Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail..”
            CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA – ” Therefore on hearing those words, the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminent, the first of the disciples, for whom alone the Lord paid tribute quickly seized and comprehended the saying..”
            JUSTIN MARTYR – “for Christ, called one of His disciples -previously known as Simon — Peter: since he recognized Him to the Christ the Son of God, by revelation of the Father.”
            IRANAEUS – “The blessed Apostles, then, having founded the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of Episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the epistles to Timothy. To whom succeeded Anacletus; and after him, Clement was allotted the bishopric…the Church at Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the church at Corinth…”
            “Since it would be tedious…. to reckon up the successions…we do put to confusion all those, in whatever manner…assemble in unauthorized meetings: we do this by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul:.. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority…” “Therefore it is necessary to obey the presbyters who are in the Church–those who possess the succession from the apostles;…It is necessary to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever.” Will write more later concerning the church fathers testimony regarding sacraments.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Baptism according the church fathers you mentioned:
            ORIGEN – “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit…..while the Church’s baptism is given for the remission of sin, it is the custom of the Church that baptism be administered even to infants.” IRANAEUS “For He came to save all ..who through Him are born again to God–infants, children, boys, youths, old men.” “Thus there are as many schemes of ‘redemption’ as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of the baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole Christian faith.”
            CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA -“For thus He wishes us to be converted and to become children….regenerated by water; and this is different begetting than that of creation….Being baptized, were are illuminated..made sons..This work is variously called grace, illumination, and perfection, and washing; washing, by which we cleanse away our sins: grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgression are remitted…”
            JUSTIN MARTYR – “For in the name of God, the Father…and our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ said “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.. and for this we have learned from the apostles…”

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            In his Epistle to the Romans, St Paul insists that Baptism accomplishes for the Gentiles all that Circumcision does for the Jews, and more. The Covenant with God is sealed.
            Since Circumcision is done on the Eighth Day of a boy’s life, at God’s command, it cannot be argued that the Jewish boy must “understand” what is being done on him just then in order for it to have any “real meaning” for him. He LEARNS that as he grows up in a Jewish environment.
            The same is intended for a child being baptized. This is why Godparents have special responsibility. Baptism has a Context; it isn’t just “getting Baby done.”

          • Proudvet56

            Amen Padre!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The Eucharist according to the early Church Fathers:
            JUSTIN MARTYR – “And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes the things we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins and unto regeneration…For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these…is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.”
            IRANAEUS- “When the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, deposited in the earth, suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time..” CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA – “And the mixture of both – of the drink and of the Word – is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace, who by faith partake of it are sanctified in both body and soul.” ORIGEN – “..we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.” “You who are wont to assist in the Divine Mysteries, know when you receive the body of the Lord you take reverent care, lest any particle of it fall to the ground and a portion of the consecrated gift escape you. You consider it a crime – and rightly so- if any particle thereof fall down through negligence.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Please provide historical proof that Origen stated what you said he did about purgatory. Whatever you have is contrary to his homilies given in Homily 25 on Numbers (He quotes Psalm 66:12 as proof), Homily 6 on Exodus, and in Homily 35 on Luke12.

          • milan.lorinc1

            billobillo54 is right… many prophecies of the end of ages allow the double even triple interpretation of the text – either prophecies of Holy Temple(Holy Place) or prophecies of Messiah – attributes which Jews attach to their Jewish Messiah – antichrist can be attached also to Jesus Christ…Antichrist will cease the sacrifice on holy place…Jesus by His ONE and ONLY Sacrifice on the has done away with all the imperfect animal sacrifices of Jewish Temple service..But way the Jesus has done that has been totally different with the way Antichrist will fulfill these prophetic Words of Daniel..

          • Proudvet56

            Many believe the verse about pregnant, and nursing deals with those who whore themselves out to the anti-christ, and become pregnant by marrying to his teachings, just like the Church is the “Bride” of Christ. So we’ll see if it happens in our life time.

          • billobillo54

            Why make an allegory from a clear, straightforward statement bro? There will be Jews in Judea at the end of the age. There will be a “Land for Peace” deal that will be approved by the anti-Christ (see Daniel 9:27): “He (the Anti-Christ) will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Note Paul’s prophecy on this in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3: “Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” The Lord mentions (Matthew 24:15) that the people in “Judea” will be at risk for their lives and must flee immediately. Fleeing to get out of Judea will be hampered for a mother nursing her child (Palestinian terrorists kill children with regularity) or during the Shabot due to travel restrictions and the lack of readiness. Today, there is a move for a “Land for Peace” deal between the Israelis and the the evil axis of Fatah and Hamas (now endorsed by the entire world including the U.S., The PROTESTANT World Council of Churches and the Vatican, among many, many others). The land in dispute is Judea/Samaria (aka The West Bank). Around 500,000 Israelis live there. There is a clash over settlements, etc. The idea has been floated that if and when the deal is made the Jews may stay in the PA (i.e. Judea/Samaria) and be under the protection of the PA. The stage is set for the literal fulfillment of Matthew 24:15.

          • Proudvet56

            No allegory here. There are well versed scholars who believe the anti-Christ will be Lucifer in his supernatural body. You know, performing signs, and wonders. Remember Satan’s third attempt at getting our lord to sign on with him. He took Jesus to the highest point in Jerusalem, and “in an instant” snap of his fingers, showed Jesus “ALL” of the kingdoms of the world, and all their glory. Know any humans who can do that, even with modern devices. In my mind that is some pretty amazing power, even if Satan is the biggest A hole in creation. But it’s just an observation. I’m new to this, and I watch, and read many well respected Christians. But Walid, now he’s a real eye opener, for the very fact that he is a man from the very land that the whole bible is based on. So I’m finding the bible very confusing sometimes. I stated on this page before, why did Mark say both thieves hurl insults at the lord, but in Luke one asked to be forgiven. Who’s right? Why is pork forbidden in the old testament, but in the new testament I think it’s Paul who says to eat anything put in front of you as long as it is not sacrificed to idols. But as I said I’m new to this, so bear with me.

          • billobillo54

            One point bro: Many people watched the crucifixion. The Lord and the thieves were on the cross for six hours. During that time, both were railing at him and insulting him. This was noted by some. Then, at some point, the repentant thief changed his mind. Someone else saw that. So they were both recorded and are not contradictory, they are accounts from a variance of perspective of time. One interesting thing: did the repentant thief petition the Lord at 9AM, at 12 Noon or at 2:45 PM immediately to his death by suffocation due to the breaking of his legs? Did he rail at the Lord after the Lord’s promise of eternal life to him? We will only learn of this in eternity. However, one thing I am certain of: We are the theif on the cross!!! Amen and Praise Y-shua!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Proudvet56

            Thanks billobillo54.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Many protestants make allegory of Jesus’ clear, straightforward words in the Bread of Life Discourse – And in the words of institution at the Last Supper. It’s rather mindless to charge someone else of doing the same. I have heard what proudvet is referring to – by a protestant. I don’t condemn them for believing that – (I think they are probably wrong) but they are merely doing what every Christian thinks they have to ability to do – interpret scripture supposedly with the Holy Spirit guiding them, ergo, 39,000 denominations with different beliefs, but all ‘lead’ by the Holy Spirit into truth-something has to be wrong. Many scriptures have BOTH meanings -literal & figurative, near fulfillment, later fulfillment.

  • Kamau40

    Walid-
    Another great article. You mentioned all of this information all in your book, GWOT which is now very familiar material. Of course, all of the information comes from God’s Word the Ultimate source of all truth. Now, when I look to see what is happening in the Middle East today and line everything up to the Bible, I totally see how the Antichrist, which the Bible predicted thousands of years ago will certainly come from Turkey in the very near future. Thank you again for helping us to see truth from the Bible and turbocharging our awareness and preparedness for what lays ahead in the coming days.

  • Helmut K

    I have been inside Hagia Sophia as a tourist. It did not feel like being in a House of God. True to Islamic tradition, it has been defiled.

  • Robert Macniel

    Lets not forget to follow the news out of Israel closely. For instance lately in the knesset the call for imposing Jewish sovereignty on the temple mount have become louder. MK Moshe Feiglin constantly pressing the government for Jewish rule on the mount. Housing minister Ariel has openly called for rebuilding the Jewish temple and breaking down the dome of the rock. And today the Temple mount was closed to muslims and opened just for jews. There is progress in prophecy about the temple and the daily sacrifice. Slow progress, but it is there none the less.

  • Tuba

    Proverbs Chapter 8 is about Christ. But the Word Wisedom or Sophia meantioned as “she” 🙂 So I wonder now If catholics would prefer to interpret this as Mary too? If they do not prefer to interpret this as like that, I want to ask why not? I would say the wisedom our Heavenly Queen!
    Tayyip is Antichrist, He is the one that has been waited. When I saw the videos of this meeting I saw the people of satan , gathered to conquer once again the Most High’s Name and every places that dedicated to Him. They did this for anniversary of 1453 Conquest of Istanbul.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      No they don’t, but Martin Luther did. Mary is in accord with Psalm 45 “Daughters of Kings are your lovely wives; a Princess arrayed in Ophir’s gold comes to stand at your right hand… All glorious is the King’s daughter as she enters, her raiment threaded with gold; In embroidered apparel she is led to the King”
      Psalm 132:8 “Arise, O Lord, come to your resting place, you and your mighty Ark”, Proverbs 31 ‘The words of Lemuel, King of Massa, the instruction his mother taught him.’ The Woman of Worth,v.28 “Her children rise up to call her blessed; her husband too, praises her.”

      • Tuba

        Queen in Psalm 45:7-9 is Word of God (Christ) , especially pay attention on 7th verse, which has been mentioned by the writer when he introduce Jesus in Hebrew 1:9. it is about Christ. Who is stand God’s right hand? Jesus or Word of God, and it is mentioned as wisdom in Proverbs Chapter 8. King is God, he exalted His Holy One. I was right, God is our heavenly father and mother, both King and Queen, They are one , they are unite 🙂 İn psalm 132:8 is Christ again, because both God the Father and The Son (Ark) will be seen by mankind, it is read in Daniel 7:13-14 and also in Revelation book, we read many times The Father and Lamb (Christ=Ark) are seen side by side, but they are one too, but God will show his Son, his Ark to all mankind then some of them will have to bow after see, but for believers it will be approving His people and exalting His Mighty Name. That’s why The Lamb or The Ark will be shown to all eyes. Because The Ark is His power, holiness, justice and mercy. About Proverbs 31, it can be said for Mary and to all women by their husbands. It is very hard to interpret this verse for Mary, because there is no hint, sorry my sister 🙂

        Martin Luther was a Catholic as you know, even after his protesting, still he did continue to hold catholic dogmas. He is not my father in faith, he is not my teacher. Not ALL non-catholic christians are Lutherans, even if they named themselves as protestant.That does not mean they are lutherans or accept fully Luther’s thoughts. He had wrongs and could not get rid off catholicism fully. It is not my problem.

        • billobillo54

          Many contemporary Protestants, like me, are grateful to Martin Luther for having the courage to stand for the truth in Christ (e.g. Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christos). And, most Catholics do not understand that we go to the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit and not to the teachings of fallible men (including Luther) to learn the truth. I am a member of a Pentecostal Church in the south where I live in the winter and of a Lutheran Church in the north in the summer. Both churches are FILLED with true believers in Jesus Christ who are both faithful to the gospel and live in purity and holiness being delivered from the power of sin and death by faith in Christ. The brothers and sisters in Christ agree on the orthodox basics of the faith, including the universal and moral teachings of the gospel of grace and do not insist that every jot and tittle of the most minute and particular matters of doctrine are assented, agreed to and/or followed as is the case in Roman Catholicism where every word spoken by the Catechism, the Magesterium, the Pope (ex cathedra) and the Councils are to be obeyed and agreed to under pains of anathema. Still, we agree, there is only one truth and that truth is Jesus Christ and Him crucified as taught by the Scriptures.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I hope you aren’t grateful for Luther’s stance against the Jews that he so hated – His passion against them compelled him to write a book about it “The Jews and Their Lies”, which Hitler used in justifying his actions against the Jews. Kristallnacht just happened to occur on Luther’s birthday – a ‘hats off’ to him from the Nazis for suggesting that all the Jews be driven out. Maybe you should read about the man before making a comment on how grateful you are to him. Where in the Bible does it say that minor doctrine isn’t important? And where does the Bible state what is minor doctrine’? I believe it states just the opposite.
            If you choose to dissent/defy from the Church that Jesus built, that’s your choice – ‘new’ Christianity does not believe in any authority other than Jesus or the Bible, even though the Bible is quite clear about it. Romans 13:1-2 “Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist WERE ESTABLISHED BY GOD. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.” Hebrews 13:17 “Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account…” And you should know better than to say “every word spoken…” It is only those ex cathedra statements made that are incumbent upon the faithful.

          • AnthonyM

            Yes, and where in the Bible does it say what books should be in the Bible.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Good point, I recall Jesus saying something to the effect that whoever neglects the least of the commandments will be called the least in the kingdom.

          • AnthonyM and Julie, great comments. Unfortunately, it seems that, at times, we’re speaking with people who have absolutely no idea of how the Church grew, how history worked, or anything else. Still, it’s edifying to read some sanity here. Walid and Theodore bring worthy meat to their conversations.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Most of them don’t want to know – they don’t want to walk into the room and find the proverbial elephant there. Look at the mustard seed, and what it grows into – looks nothing like the seed from which it sprang, but it is the result of the planting of the seed, and can be proved to be from the seed. Ted and Walid certainly do bring a light into darkness.

          • Amen to that, Julie. They are good men. They simply draw ignorant people on occasion.

          • Woody

            Yes, the Church grew on the blood of martyrs–e.g., the first 33 popes beginning with Peter were martyred along with every Apostle except St John

          • One more thing: Sophia as wisdom is feminized because this is a Hellenistic concept. For some strange reason, Protestants can’t seem to hande that Christianity contains a great deal of Hellenistic thought; the Church Fathers were Hellenists, St Paul of Tarsus himself was a Hellenist (as well as fully versed in Roman law and cultural traditions) and that the Bible isn’t some magic toy to predict the future.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Not only the point you make, but also it is why they can’t properly interpret the book – they fail to realize that they (we) are reading a book that was written to a certain people that lived in a certain historic time. For instance, any Jew (which the apostles were) in ear shot of Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:18-19 would have immediately hearkened back to Isaiah 22:22 – the Keys – The Binding -The Loosing , and would know EXACTLY what Jesus just did. They also knew that Jesus was the prophesied Son of David – they knew this Son would sit on David’s throne- so they understood immediately that the Kingdom Jesus was speaking of would be structured the same. There would be a royal steward, the “father over the house” (Peter), with the Keys on his shoulder, that could open and shut, bind and loose. No trouble. And the Son of David, who was KING, installed his mother as the Queen Mother, who interceded for the citizens of the Kingdom.

          • Winston

            If you know history as well as you assert, then you know the Vatican was guilty of genocide against both the Jews and orthodox Christians, not only in the early centuries but in the past 100 years. What about the evil the Jesuits do? Where is the Vatican on denouncing the atrocities against the Christians today? Hmmm?

          • Proudvet56

            If you knew history as well you claim to, you would know protestants were guilty of plenty of horrific crimes here in America. Slavery, the burning of Jewish Synagogs, and Catholic churches, started the KKK. Need i go on. Neal young should have called his song “Protestant man”, and how many slaves did your ancestors own, Hmmm? Take a hike Blue blood! Oh, and 14000.00 Catholics died kicking the crap out of your protestant ancestors to help take away their slaves. Awe, no more free labor. What a shame.

          • Winston

            I am not a protestant. Frankly, I do not embrace nor follow any human denomination; I don’t need to know what man says about God. God has provided all the information that I need.

            My family never owned slaves. Not in Europe or here, in which my family did not emigrate to USA till around 1910. Both my parents were first generation Americans.

            What people fail to understand is that religious denominations draw the same power hungry degenerates that are drawn to temporal power agencies, i.e., political office. My belief in Jesus Christ and His Word, are enough for me.

            “Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.” — Psalms 146:3

            “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.” — Jeremiah 17:5

            Thank you for your comment.

          • Proudvet56

            Well we are all in trouble then. Humans wrote the bible.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Hmmm -they have. Have you listened? Pope Francis asked the WHOLE WORLD for an entire DAY OF PRAYER and fasting to end the violence-which I bet you DID NOT DO. We have prayer for peace in the world at every Mass. Do you know how many thousands of Catholics were SLAUGHTERED less than a hundred yrs ago in Mexico? And that their dead bodies were left for days on poles as a reminder to others? Please give the documents name and date where the Vatican ordered genocide. Why, in your world, is it OK for Catholics to be slaughtered, but anyone else, it’s deplorable genocide? You have compassion for Winston and for whomever Winston deems worthy. Do you know what happened to the Irish Catholics? Do you have a clue? How they were robbed of their fertile land, the ones that weren’t slaughtered were left to starve to death? Pure genocide – at the hands of Protestants. But that’s ok to Winston.

          • Winston

            Do you think He felt that way about Nimrod?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Who – God, or Billo?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Who do you think the writers were referring to?

          • billobillo54

            I do not subscribe to Martin Luther’s diatribe and hatred against the Jews any more than you would subscribe to Pope Francis’ or the Roman Catechism’s avowed statements that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do. I would also hope that you do not subscribe to the Satanic and diabolical “Two State Solution” that most of the world including the Vatican and Pope Francis subscribes to (see Joel 3:2). I also hope that you do not subscribe to the Vatican’s Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Michael Sabbah and his justifications of Palestinian violence against the Jews, or his involvement in “Pax Christi” as virulently anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian group that has led in the divestment movement against Israel.
            Again, I can only thank God for the faithfullness of Martin Luther to the gospel. The man was fallible (like all men are). And, we have a multitude of examples in the Scriptures of saints resisting authority when the authority violated the Word of God. Read Galatians and you will note that Paul opposed Peter and supposed Apostles “from James” (i.e. the Pope of the Jerusalem Church). Right before your eyes the world, including the Vatican and Pope Francis are endorsing, supporting and attempting the fomenting of the “Two State Solution” that if implemented is a direct disobedience to the will fo God, will destroy Israel and start World War III. Are you going to sit there and support this in the name of obedience? And please do not asserrt that the Pope is not speking “ex cathedra.” This is a weak, even lame cop out. This issue IS directly and specifically related to “faith and morals.” A man and an institution that claims infallibility on the most important issues that a person and a world can face has a necessarily higher bar as to accuracy than the anyone else. I say the Pope and the RCC operates under Replacement Theology and is overwhelmingly anti-Zionist. Please note the difference between being anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish. God is both pro-Zionist and pro-Jewish.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Nice recovery from your previous fawning over Martin Luther. Why is that YOU can ascribe “gratefulness’ to a man that was virulently anti-Semitic, but if any Pope has ever done anything close to Luther, you throw him in the trash -and the whole church with him? Double standard? Anti-Catholic? I noticed no response from you concerning earthly authority after my quotes from scripture. You have to dodge it because it doesn’t fit your theory. You omitted that Peter warned against interpreting Paul’s letters, and other scripture, “to their own destruction”. You make yourself your own “pope’. God is also pro-Catholic.

          • billobillo54

            Dear Julie: Please read Galatians. Paul states that Peter was: “not straightforward according to the gospel.” The entire epistle is about adding anything other than faith as necessary and sufficient for salvation is “another gospel.” When Paul uses the term “Law” he is referring to The Law of God including the two greatest commandments. Circumcision always is tied to following the commandments. Our obedience to the Law does not save us and does not make us more righteous. Only the righteousness of Christ imputed by faith credits us as righteous. And, I did not duck your Scripture on authority. Actually, the one form Romans 12 is slightly misapplied since Paul was particularly speaking of civil authority. My problem is that I cannot follow those who distort the gospel and are in error in so many ways. That would be the Roman Catholic Church. There are many Protestant Churches that I would never be associated with too, but the same is true in my mind for the RCC. Trent has anathematized the preaching of the gospel. I wish we could be unified but we can’t. God bless you Julie.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            So is God pro-Catholic? Why, or why not? Paul’s issue was over Peter’s actions, and the followers subsequent aping of him – because of fear of the Jews. If your assertion of Trent is true, then why do they preach the gospel? More human beings have come to Christ by the missionaries of the Catholic church than all other organizations put together. Please refute that. And by what authority can you accuse of ‘distorting the gospel message’ — because it doesn’t comport with your fallible interpretation? How do you know you are right? Do you follow Jesus’ commands? Are you sure? You make your doctrine from Paul and Paul alone. The Savior’s clear commands aren’t ever mentioned by you. You believe that you have imputed righteousness, that’s Luther’s teachings. Understand – because this is your error- Paul was talking about works of the law, the old law. He was talking to and about the Jews. We have ‘new’ works, from Jesus, they are acts of love and charity. Feed the hungry, give drink to thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, love each other as I have loved you… Why did Jesus say that unless our righteousness exceeds those of the Pharisees we won’t enter the kingdom of heaven? I thought we had Jesus’ righteousness imputed to us? Why did Jesus say to Be ye perfect, as my heavenly father is perfect? Where’s that imputed righteousness? Did Jesus err when He spoke? Did he forget he ‘imputed’ all that to us? Nothing unclean will enter heaven, you will account for every idle word spoken, by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned, what you haven’t done to the least of these you didn’t do to me, go out into outer darkness…. How many more do you need? We can’t stand her like an old oak tree and do nothing. That’s Luther. That’s you.

          • billobillo54

            Julie: Protestant do good works. I do good works. I and millions of Protestants desire only to be more like Jesus. So did Luther. Protestants believe this: FAITH=SALVATION + WORKS. Catholics believe: SALVATION=FAITH + WORKS. We are here for good works. We believe in the necessity for Christian love and good works. As it is SLANDEROUS for a Protestant to say that Catholics believe in salvation by works (neglecting faith, faith,which according to Catholicism is the foundation of salvation), it is just as SLANDEROUS to say that Protestants don’t practice or believe in good works.

            Also, “The Law” is “The Law of God.” Jesus taught the Law in it’s perfection. Everything found in Jesus’ teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is found in the Law of Moses (aka The Law of God). Take this text from Exodus 23:4-5: “If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.” Jesus stated that the two most important commandments (i.e. parts of the Law of Moses) are to “Love God with all of your heart….and to love your neighbor.” We believe in practicing these. We believe we get the power to obey, to love, to be kind, to fulfill the Law from the Person of Christ and Him crucified via faith. My acts of love, my acts of kindness, my acts of generosity, etc. even if performed in perfect Godly love do not save me. Only Christ saves (by faith). God bless you Julie in the name of OUR LORD JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            We believe that it is Jesus’ grace from what ALL flows. Grace and nothing but grace. It’s how we respond, or if we respond, that matters. Read the OT ratification ceremony on Mt Sinai. That might illuminate what Jesus did in the upper room -which is OUR ratification ceremony. Please study the manna “bread from heaven” it was truly bread that truly nourished the Israelites – John uses the “murmuring’ to take us back to the wilderness wandering. Study the bread and the wine of the presence. Look at the Passover ritual – they had to kill the lamb, spread the blood, then they had to eat the flesh of the Lamb. Jesus is our paschal lamb- therefore let us keep the feast. What feast? Study Paul’s accounts of the Eucharist -how can eating ‘bread’ or drinking ‘wine’ cause sickness or death? How can we profane His body and blood unless we are consuming His body and blood? Jesus is the fulfillment of all in the OT – the lamb that had to be eaten, the manna that sustained the wilderness generation, the bread and the wine of the presence. All in Jesus and the awesome gift He left. Read Malachi 1 that talks about the temple gates being closed, and the gentiles offering incense and a pure offering (oblation). Is there a Church that has fulfilled Malachi’s prophecy- for 2,000 yrs? Paul tells us that as long as we do the Lord’s Supper (feast), we PROCLAIM (same word used for proclaiming the gospel) the death of Jesus – note- until He comes. When did the manna end? When they entered the promised land. The Eucharist will end when Jesus returns and takes us to the promised land.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Pope Billo does not have any authority to decide what is, and what is not, ex cathedra statements. No more than anyone could buck the scribes and Pharisees that Sat in Moses’ seat (his cathedra).
            Further, if you would read with understanding instead of prejudice, Paul was rebuking Peter’s BEHAVIOR AND CONDUCT – Not any binding statement he had made – Paul knew better than that – Paul had to go to Cephas “and confer with him for 15 days” – what did Paul need? Guidance? Make sure he wasn’t “running in vain”?

          • Tuba

            I agree with you my brother. Catholics and orthodoxes, bot only them but others too in reformist groups must have courage too stand for the truth. Because only then there will be absolute unity between christians. And again, it is not our fault for the seperation. God says us to be careful about false teachings. Like Christ said, he came to bring seperation between right and wrong. So in fact it is normal to see the seperation, it is because there are groups follow their masters totally and do not take serious Word of God.

          • Woody

            It’s pretty obvious that “self-interpretation” of scripture lead to over 41,000 disjointed supposed believers in Jesus – see Aristotle “contradictions cannot exist at the same time and both be true.” Today, 41,000 and dah dah self-interpretations and Presbyterians swearing by Sola fake Scripura are now marrying men to men; women to woman and BO is granting them “married sick leave” in case they have a baby. Right

        • Julie LaBrecque

          A complete imbecile would know better than that. Men are kings. Women are queens. I supposed you think that Jesus is the bride, rather than the bridegroom. Israel and New Israel, The Church -are referred to in the feminine. Finish Psalm 45:14 “the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee”. You miss the point in Proverbs 31 because you didn’t read the FIRST VERSE, “The words of King Lemuel, the words (prophecy in KJV) that HIS MOTHER taught him.”
          What woman, whose ” ‘husband’ is prominent at the city gates”, whose “children rise up to call her blessed”, “many daughters have done virtuously but You have excelled them all.”

          • Tuba

            🙂 I have been waiting such answer from you, since you can not understand fully whole bible together. Let us look at Genesis 2:23

            And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

            Word was Like Eve in God , in this case in Adam (God=King), And Word came out from Heavenly Father (or King), The Son (it is not referred his sex as you know, but his essence, like we are called all mankind, no matter the person man or woman) , Word of God, in spiritual way as Eve, and Wisedom of God, Word of God (Jesus Christ) is like Eve and Heavenly Queen 🙂

            Isaiah 55:10-11 there is talked about Jesus Christ

            10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

            11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

            And John 1:18

            18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

            He was in the bosom of Father (you can say Adam), Christ came from God The Father’s bosom, and we can say for The Son also Eve, because he is taken (or sent) out of Father.
            Again, you are very wrong to call Mary as Ark. Ark is The Son, Wisedom of God ( Heavenly Mother and Queen:). Ark can not be Mary. Because no one can worship to Mary, it is for only God. In Revelation 11:15-19 , There is mentioned about Ark of The Covenant and it is clear that Ark is Jesus Christ.

          • Tuba

            We are being raised by Christ .He is Word of God. If you are not being raised by Word of God, be careful, not have any other Heavenly Mother beside Word of God, WHO is only true mother , true Rock, true shephard, true foundation in faith.
            Queen is Christ, for absorb this title to christ you should wear HD ( heavenly dimension, like 3D:) glasses especially to understand fully the relationship between The Son -Word-Queen & The Father – King.
            Proverbs is about Christ, yet as feminine, Psalm 45:7-9 is remind , quoted in Hebrew 1:9 by the writer. Again In this dimension -HD 🙂 you will realize our heavenly mother is Christ and we are being raised by Him. And for praised King, Christ (Queen) must be praised, since they are same and unite.

          • Tuba

            When I read Proverbs 31:16-17-18 I see here Jesus 🙂 Sorry again, but it is not Mary.
            And also read Luka 13:6-9 , Jesus Christ is here a gardener, he brings up and watch the garden. He Works with his strength to save this one of weak and unfruitful tree. Owner of the Garden (The Father) comes and wants to destroy for its situation, because it is what this tree deserves. But Gardener (The Son, The Lamb, Christ, Sophia & Queen or Heavnely Mother) stops Him and demands time for save it (it was us). He is still working, He will continue to work or save as much as He can and at the end King will show to every creature on earth His Gardener, His Ark of The Covenant, His Son and His Queen (Sophia -Word of God came from God the Father’s bosom!
            I hope this all clear for you Julie. Christ is everywhere in Bible, both OT AND NT, Not your Mary. I am saying ” your Mary” because your definitons and your church dogmas definitely not introduce Mary WHO she was really. She is not Queen, Not heavenly mother, not interceeder, gardener, etc. But these are all fullfilling in Christ.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Let’s look at the main flaw in your theory (that the Ark is Jesus) Your interpretation cannot make void the Word of God. Psalm 132:8 “A, O Lord, and come to your resting place, you AND YOUR MIGHTY ARK.” You’ve just made void the word of God.

          • Tuba

            There is not any flaw in my theory, because it is not a theory but it is Word of God and it is written in Bible. I gave them and I am writing to you again. Please read this time. Ark is definitely Jesus Christ.

            John 17:24

            24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

            Daniel 7:13-14

            13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

            14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion isan everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

            Revelation 11:15-19

            15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdomsof our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

            16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

            17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

            18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

            19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

            Rev 5:13

            13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

            Rev. 6:16

            16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

            At the end, The God Who Sitteth on the Throne and His Ark, His Queen (Word of God=Christ=Messiah), Lamb of God will be seen to all creature.

            God is limitless, so as Daniel saw in 7:13-14, The God and Christ together in different presence, it will be same at the end , and Psalm 132:8 exactly talks about this. They are mentioning same sceen.

            Sophia,Word of God is Christ and in Spiritual talking Christ is Queen. I am sure you did read also my explenation why The Son , Word Of God is Queen. As Even, Woman taken from Man’s bosom, it was a shadow of future things of what God would do. Word of God, The Son came from Father’s Bosom and that moment He was like Woman, Queen of King. That’s why Solomon used for Christ as she,feminine in Proverbs 8.. So indeed we will see Both Spiritual King and Queen together, as mentioned in these verses above.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba – NO. For all your superabundance of scripture, you sure miss the point. Please dissect Psalm 132:8 for me. Maybe my English knowledge of AND being a conjunction is wrong. This verse speaks of 2 things. #1 -Lord AND #2 ARK. TWO things Tuba. Let me ask you a simple question – Is Jesus the Temple?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            When did Jesus become a Woman? Are you a gnostic – trying to redefine who Jesus is? Galatians 4:4 “born of a woman”. How can the bridegroom be a female? For your info, The Church ( a ‘woman”) was ‘born’ out of His pierced side, as the woman was ‘fashioned’ out of Adam’s side. If you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you will be flesh of his flesh, bone of His bone. “I in you, and you in me”. Read the account of the disciples on the road to Emmaus – Jesus was walking with them for near 8 hours, quoting scripture. However, they DID NOT recognize him. But “their eyes were opened” when he broke bread, and then they ‘knew’ him – same word the OT records when Adam “knew” his wife.

          • Tuba

            Did you read Genesis 2:23 and naming part? I am not saying Jesus is woman as we see in earth. But spiritually The Son of God (even there son does not referred his gender, because he is God, He does not have gender, but it refers his essence or his origin, that is God The Father. I am not gnostic. My statements are clear, for not doing mistake I gave verses to prove it is not my definiton for Jesus but it is in bible.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Complete heresy Tuba – Jesus is forever “the Son of God”. We are HIS bride. Go read what Paul had to say about marriage “and I am speaking of Christ and the Church”

          • Tuba

            What about Christ and Father? You still think Son has gender! I am talking spiritual things.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Stop and think Tuba. Jesus appeared in His resurrected, glorified body. Did Thomas put his hands in his wounds?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            What ‘sex’ is a King?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you realize that Eve is only ‘woman’ while she is a virgin?

          • Tuba

            “A complete imbecile would know better”
            It seems that you are not even an imbecile to get it, even an imbecile would see easily the resemblance of the relation between Word of God (Christ) and Father as same as Adam and Eve.

          • Tuba

            God the Father is Man and King, All others who came from Him are Woman (it is included The Son because He came out from Father’s Bosom as Eve came out from Adam) and Queen who is praised and annointed above all in Psalms 45, is Christ. Writer of Hebrew also thought as about Christ and he did quote from Psalm 45:6-7 in Hebrew 1:8-9. Being King and Queen is not depend on sex, since God does not has sex, yet we call God as Father, because He is the first and source of everything.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba- in the Davidic Kingdom, the King was a man. His mother, a woman, was the Queen. And God was/is the source of this Kingdom.

          • Tuba

            You still can not see. Davidic Kingdom is on earth not in heaven! I am not talking about earthly kingdom. If you would be right, İn hebrew, the writer must be wrong, are you saying Hebrew verses made mistake when refered Jesus as Queen? How could you explain Hebrew Chapter 1, it is quote from Psalms 45. Who was the most annionted than others above all? Hebrew writer gives its answer as Jesus, as Queen, but in spiritually He is, The Son is like a Queen to God. Son is God, has same essence with God The Father, but also He came to us as Human being to be like us, to be our brethren for the salvation. So He is Queen spiritually, and our Messiah, seen in flesh as man. It is not difficult to get it.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            In case you don’t know, everything in the OT was fulfilled in the new. Do you agree that Jesus sits on the throne of David his father?

          • Tuba

            Yes, but you still think human Jesus, I am talking about God Jesus, who came from Father Bosom, Wisedom of God. And who is sitting on the right side of God?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba – what you are saying is heresy. You cannot divide Jesus into two persons.

          • Tuba

            I am not dividing, He was fully man and God. Is it division? He is both our Lord God and our High-priest in the temple in heaven, he is our priest, bring us to God the Father but also He is God. He will be seen to all as mentioned in revelation, we will see Lamb, Christ and God The Father’s Throne together, because Jesus wanted this in his prayer.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You said I still think of human Jesus, and that you are talking about God Jesus – that is dividing Jesus in two! You cannot do that Tuba! Don’t deny what you said. Just say you made a mistake.

          • Tuba

            Anyway, we know who is sitting on the right side of God Father, will be word of God, the Lamb of God, Christ.
            You do not want to give answer, because you know too who is sitting, but you still interpret this Queen as Mary, but she is Wisedom and Word of God. King and Queen are unite, they are one, Father and Son is unite, their spiritual relation between two, it is like Adam and Eve, Like eve came from Adam, The Son, Wisedom and Word of God came from Bosom (spiritually of course) of Father. And still you can not show any evidence from bible Mary is Queen. There is none, not in the bible, not in other books that you call apocryphia.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            We sure do. You never answered the question I asked earlier: Is Jesus the temple? Answer please. Then consider John’s vision of God’s temple in heaven was opened – and what did John see?

          • Tuba

            In earth, as we, Jesus was Himself is God’s temple. But in heaven there is real Temple, a place, that’s why Moses warned to build first temple (it was tent) as in heaven that was shown to him. You confuse always The Son in earth and The Son in heaven, The Son as Human- The Son as God. In revelation John see real temple in heaven, and in there God Himself was there, and The Ark His Son.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            John 2:19 “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

          • Tuba

            Ok Julie, even if you would like to see the thing like this, again you can not to get that Mary is The Ark, you will again help me to prove my claim, that is Jesus Christ.While he was on earth, he was as an example to us, that’s why he is the temple of God and also God’s Holy One different from us of course. You can read in Paul’s letter, when we have faith in Jesus and Him, Like in Rock issue, we become also The Temples of God, but this is in this earth. Anyway, If He is The Temple too in Heaven, WHO could be in this temple? Jesus Himself, The Word of God, Power of God, Essence of God, so the Ark is that will be shown , appear in the Temple is Christ! Not Mary! How could Mary be in Jesus?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            How are you in Jesus?

          • Tuba

            Vasting time… If Mary is there, all people is in Jesus then. But you can not change verses as you wish. It is not true, and this is exactly what you are doing. I do not need explain even these verses, they are very clear. Bu you do not want to see and accept.

          • Tuba

            What do you surely know? Jesus, The Son, the Word of God is sitting at right hand of God?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            The Son is NOT like a queen to God. Jesus is KING OF KINGS! The Lion of the tribe of Judah. He will “jump off His royal throne, as a fierce man of war, into a land in the midst of destruction”! That’s not in your Bible though because you are missing Wisdom.

        • billobillo54

          Dear Brother in Christ: I agree with you about this very important truth. God, our Father, His Son and His Spirit are like a loving mother to us (also a protecting shepherd, mother hen, living water, bread of life, the gate to life, the Rock, the entrances to the Temple (i.e. Way, Truth and Life), etc. Roman Catholics are drawn to Mary because of her unconditional love, nurture, kindness, graciousness, goodness, gentleness, etc. There is not a word of judgement, condemnation or threatening proceeding from her towards a BELIEVER. This is exactly the true nature of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to all BELIEVERS. The love, is like, the love a a mother, except God’s love is eternally and infinitely greater that the most loving mother.

          • Tuba

            Dear Brother ,
            I am your sister in Christ 🙂

    • Tuba, Julie comes up with a good answer. I would also add that the Church Fathers, mainly Byzantine Greeks and Hellenized Jews, would have seen wisdom in a feminine form. The Greek article for Sophia is feminine. One would have to have a working command of Greek to understand this.

      • Tuba

        It is explained in Bible why Wisdom of God is seen as feminine, for understand you can read genesis 2:23. You will se there why woman is named as woman. You can read also my reply to Julie below 🙂

      • Tuba

        Bible itself is enough my brother. I have not read any explenation about it from these church fathers, but when I read in genesis and the verse in bible all over in it and when think all of them together I found and understand why God allowed to be mentioned His Holy one as feminine. The answer is in Bible, not out of bible. I have never find ant problem that bible do not have answer. Word of God is rwally enough with itself. If you read really, you will get truely.

        • Then what we have here is a radical difference of opinion. The Church Fathers warned that those who read on their own would make every number of heresies, and America, for all its glory in almost every other aspect, gave rise to a shopping culture of Christianity. 33,000+ Protestant denominations. Western Europe has a few, all of which are dying. And this stemming from One Church. What is your denomination, if you don’t mind me asking? This way, I understand where it is you are coming from. Mine is Eastern Orthodox – through Russia and Ukraine first, though now attending a Romanian Orthodox Church.

          • Tuba

            What I see that these “Church Fathers” WHO made up Mary and Saints teachings, they are the ones made heresies. Untill now none of you could provefrom bible these heresies in catholic and orthodox churches. So Of course I will trust only Word Of God, and It is my duty to examine and critic the all teachings. I respect teacher, priests, elders in church, as long as they are hewn to Jesus and not being contrary with Word of God.

            Archbishop Lazar Puhalo , does he reject Mary and saints issue that protestants object? If He does not reject these dogmas, then He is not really understand bible, even if he knows context (I did not understand what you mean by saying this).

          • Pope Tuba speaks. That has to be one of the most ignorant statements ever made. That’s saying something, considering the lack of erudition and scholarship this page tends to attract. Everything the Church Fathers did was through Holy Tradition, including the development of what you call the Bible. There’s no reason in continuing discussion with people like you. You are essentially a participant of a pseudo-Christian Taliban (they, too, are Sola Scriptura) who thinks more like a mindless Muslim that like someone who actually deals with reality. Learn to read history instead of the rubbish someone is packaging so terribly for you. You’ll find out that you’ve been in error all along, and eventually repent.

          • Tuba

            Yes, They were so perfect and right. But I wonder how come they made very serious mistakes by saying Mary is Heavenly Queen, Ark of The Covenant which are definitely not true for Mary but they are true for Jesus Christ. Blind ones tell me I am blind, how can say that, while they are blind!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba- don’t play coy boy. I’ve provided numerous scriptures AND teachings from the early church fathers. Keep your head in the sand. Keep trying to be your own ‘infallible’ interpreter of the book the Catholic church produced.

          • Tuba

            You are a joke Julie. You do not comment any of them regarding the verses I gave you.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Do you know who John is? The one that obeyed Jesus and took the ‘woman’ as his own mother? He also wrote the Book Of Revelation. Do you think He may have had a ‘few’ conversations with Mary while she lived with him? This same John has a vision of heaven, and sees a ‘woman’ there – in the temple. Wonder who he might have been seeing and writing about-

          • Tuba

            You are waterless well, keep your catholic doctrines and do not read whole chapther , ok… Never read, it will not change your mind anyway.

          • Hundreds of them were most certainly so. What denomination are you to declare your authority from? And please don’t tell us it’s from Jesus Himself. Just the name of the earthly ministry which gave you these ideas.

          • Tuba

            You are all of you catholics and orthodoxes, you are so ignorant. You are still want me belong a denomination. You are so stupid. STUPID! As I said before, none of them belong to a denomination, my churches are evangelical bible churches and they are not reformists too, why is it so difficult for you to accept this. These ideas not my ideas, but God’s Words in bible, read it. I am challenge you all, but none of you can refute “my ideas” as you call it.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Nice cover! “I just believe in the Bible”! Well, what makes you think you can interpret it CORRECTLY? You need to see that you too, are an Ethiopian Eunuch, like we all are. Peter warns against private interpretations “which they twist to their own destruction.”

          • Tuba

            Ok, so far nobody could prove I twisted anything in bible.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I’ve show more than enough! Maybe you suffer from narcissism.

          • Tuba

            You did not. You gave me just ONE PIECE OF VERSE, AND YOU IGNORE WHOLE CHAPTER! I GAVE YOU VERSES SEVERAL AND THEY WERE NOT PIECES BUT IT WAS MOSTLY SAYING SAMETING IN WHOLE CHAPTER. EXPLAIN TO ME PROVERB CAHPTER 8, WHO IS THIS MENTONED THERE? IS IT NOT WORD OF GOD THAT CAME TO US AS JESUS?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            All you do is twist into spiritual ONLY meaning. Did Jesus come from a real life-and-blood human being, or not?

          • Tuba

            Jesus came here on earth as Messiah, As human being, but he is everlasting human? Did not we read he return to His Father, where he came from, there was Father’s Bosom.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He is always the God-man Christ. Do you not believe in the resurrection of the body – the glorified body? Read Revelation – “The Lamb of God, standing as though slain.”

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Add them all up, Tuba. Not just from that post, all posts.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Twist isn’t the word for it. Make void is more like it.

          • Ahh, now we’re getting somewhere! Thanks for that information, Tuba, in all seriousness! You are a one-man operation who has deluded himself into thinking that 2,000 years of Christian development means nothing, but that you, Pope Tuba, great thinker and scholar, have magically found out the secret of Christianity. You’re a Gnostic. Your kind was dealt with in the First Ecumenical Council.

          • Tuba

            Thank you!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Guess those types will exist till the end. Think they know better than the people who were taught AND ordained by the Apostles.

          • Tuba

            Your church is not ordained by Apostles. Historcially not, sorry.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Wanna bet? You bring your apostolic succession, and we’ll bring ours.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            What Church is?

          • Indeed, Julie. Thankfully, some of these people grow up. Those who live in such delusion are precisely the sort to whom the verse in Matthew 7:22 apply.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They just hate authority, even though Romans 13 and Hebrews 12 admonishers us to submit- Korah’s rebellion.

          • For those who boast so much about being ‘Bible-believing’ (rather than believing those Apostles who Christ Himself entrusted to maintain His Church at His departure, leaving the Holy Spirit inside of it and us), they really are ignorant. The truth is that whether you are a Palestinian Greek, a Nabatean, a Jewish convert from the 1st Century AD, or some weirdo in his mother’s basement or a garage-turned -‘chapel’, we are influenced by the culture and philosophies of our day. I tend to take the Church Fathers more seriously than the freaks who show up here because they actually saw Christ, knew him, and followed. People like Polycarp give us His physical description. Learned men had to combat the pagan ideas running around at the time, so they speak in ways that uneducated people can’t grasp, and these people get angry because they feel left out of the conversation. This is purely a matter of pride. I hate mathematics, and will always have an aversion to it. However, I am glad to defer to someone who knows more than I do. A smart person knows his limitations. It seems that we have far too many people spouting about things they’ve made up in their minds, and then have the nerve to project it onto others. They condemn others to Hell (a sin in and of itself, as they have no authority to do so), and don’t see the irony of their statements. Oh, well. Back to reading. Enjoy the day, Julie.

          • Tuba

            I like mathematics Rudy, there are always absolutes especailly if they are about God. None rejects all church fathers. You intentionally accuse us bible believing christians as if we reject all of them but in reality not. We reject the teachings or doctrines that are not biblical. At the end you will prefer to follow bible (the absolutes) or man traditions. The doctrines we rejects (you call us as weirdo, embecile, idiot, etc) the dogmas, the teachings, assumptions that are contrary to God’s Absolutes. And again you can not historically prove that catholic roman church or eastern orthodox church were founded by Apostles. You can not say this. Because they are founded hunderds years later from apostles. And then 400 hundred years later, with pagan rome convert to christianity, this mary and saints dogmas were born, and they are ABSOLUTELY not biblical, but pagan cults infaltrated to the church, but not WORD OF GOD, THANKS GOD!

          • Mathematics proves God in that manner. I used to debate this with students, and they would relent on that subject.

            You’re right in that I accuse you of rejecting the Church Fathers. The Bible, which you idolize and fetishize, has no authority without it meshing to Holy Tradition. You refuse to accept that.

            As for infiltration, no historian would ever agree with you. You simply spout rubbish for the sake of it. This is why cult types like you end up all alone. No one takes you seriously. You can tell me the sky is green and you know it is and you can see it, ad nauseum. In the end, you are either ignorant or lying. When you say that 400 years later pagans infiltrated the Church, that tells me that you are reading pre-packaged garbage pretending to be history, and it shows why the people who gave you this ‘education’ would not dare to go on a debate against any actual scholars. They would be publicly humiliated for peddling a blatant lie. First, there was neither a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church for the first 1,000 years, and these names are colloquial thanks to the Great Schism of 1054. The true names are the One, Holy, Catholic (complete), Apostolic Church which Jesus Christ Himself founded in 33 AD, at Pentecost. You’ve been told this, but because you have a hatred of Church authority (and basic history, apparently), you simply reject it out of hand, and then have the temerity to act like you won a contest. If one fool is running a race and shouting at everyone that he won, should we take him seriously? No.

            Too many converts know your kind. This is why I must be sounding harsh with you. For that, I do apologize. But it’s frustrating to deal with people who live in a world of make-believe and declare things that have no basis in reality. The only thing I will suggest you do is to go to an Orthodox or Catholic Church, and talk to the clergy there. Tell them your version of history, and they will listen. They’re patient. And then, listen to actual history. Absorb it, and learn to deal with how things were developed. Your ideas about Mary and idols are not some shocking revelation, but look silly to us because of the historical development of the Church. The basic liturgy was already taking shape by the time of Justin Martyr in the middle of the 2nd Century, and it was the next 100 years where Gnostics tried to influence the Church (they did, in the form of the Arians, who were finally defeated and properly exiled from the Church a few centuries later, but keep popping up now and then.

            Better yet, take part in conversations with scholars. You really have some weird ideas, and you’d be set straight by having forthright discussions with people face-to-face. Too many people hide behind monikers online, and act as though they have some sense of power. Do this in person, and you will watch the bloated characters melt away, and you’re then left to deal with reason and reality.

            On this, I wish you good luck and God’s blessing.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “Wherever the bishop shall appear there let the multitudes of the people also be, as wherever is Jesus Christ there is the Catholic Church.”- Ignatius of Antioch “Peter upon whom is built the church of Christ against which the gates of hell shall not prevail..” -Origen “Christ called one of his disciples- previously known by the name of Simon — Peter; since he recognized Him to be the Christ the Son of God, by revelation of the father.”-Justin Martyr. Want some more?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You too, Rudy. The closest truth is from those closest to the truth. Just like water flowing out of a stream -gets muddy as it travels downhill through streams, creeks, rivers.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They believe that they have Jesus’ righteousness “imputed” to them – in other words, they are getting Jesus report card, not their own. Then why is there judgment – for believers? Shouldn’t God just “rapture” all believers up and judge the non-believers? Jesus said a lot of things about getting into heaven. He didn’t say he was laying a blanket on me and I didn’t need to do anything.

          • rudycarrera

            You’re being far too logical and reasonable for this thread by speaking so much common sense.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Therefore the condemnation. If you take their logic to its conclusion then you are left in a very untenable situation – If we aren’t required to account for ourselves, then we can go out and sin and disobey His words and we are still ‘in’ Jesus because that blanket has been thrown around me.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Saint Luke SHOWS that Maryam IS the ARK of the COVENANT. Read the account he gives of Mary’s Visitation to Elizabeth. SHE IS the ARK, because JESUS is the True and Living Word of God, not just on stones, but in the flesh; He is the True and Living Bread come down from Heaven; He is the True and Great High Priest, whose Rod has budded. Even in His Mother’s Womb (beten – Hebrew, Psalm 132:11) He Is all these symbols now made Flesh.

          • Tuba

            You are wrong brother, sorry. Ark of The Covenant was a prototype of Messiah! Not Mary. It was resemblance of Messiah. No where in the Bible Ark Of the Covenant is pointed as Mary but Jesus. Messiah is Ark, What He had in this flesh? Were not there -his inside, in his nature- Living Bread, Power Of God and Word Of God! What Elizabeth said was Mary had this ARK in her womb. Like Levites carrying Ark, Like Israelities built Ark of The Covenant, Mary was used to built Ark (flesh of Messiah) of The Covenant.
            You do not want to see brother. How could you interpret Ark as Mary, but in reality Ark is Jesus. Could you tell me please. Ark was God’s Holy Object in this earth, His seat was on it. All of them satisfied in Jesus- Messiah, not Mary. Please read Rev. 11:19. Ark of The Covenant is JESUS.

            And about Psalm 132:11, there is mentioning again Jesus. It is said Jesus will sit on the David’s throne there, on earth, it will fullfilled in Millenium period. Mary will not sit on throne of King. But this King- Messiah is a seed of Woman, a production of Woman physically. In hebrew, what is said there “fruit of womb will sit David’s throne”. So, again Jesus will sit on the throne of earthly kingdom. But this fruit of womb is Ark of the Covenant. The covenant is His Life, the Ark of this Holy Life, Bread, Blood and Word is Messiah, NOT MARY!

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The ARK is GOD’s Throne, not David’s! David would never have DARED sit on the Ark — especially after what happened to Uzzah. (“U is for Uzzah, who saw the Ark shake; In trying to stop it, he made a mistake!” (ca. 1905, Children’s Bible Alphabet.)
            Yet JESUS sat on MaRY’s lap, as on a human throne. (This is how Christian art in the catacombs shows them, from ancient time.)
            The trouble is, your mind is closed; you have sucked deeply from bitter sources; you cannot see what St Luke is trying so patiently to show you. “Lighten up! Rejoice!”

            MARY stays in the home of the Levitical priest, Zachariah, for three months, in the very place where David set the Ark in the home of Obed-Edom for three months. Obed-Edom’s home was blessed, as Elizabeth knew her home was blessed by Mary’s coming & staying. So David took courage to have the Ark come into his City, and Joseph took courage to have the Virgin Mother come into his house.
            David the Prophet leapt before the Ark, naked by some views, as John Baptist the Fore-Runner Prophet leapt at Mary’s arrival, inspired by the Holy Spirit.
            Who said Mary would sit on the King’s throne? Not I.

            If you would READ Psalm 132, you would see that your bitter argument collapses. The “Fruit of David’s Womb” comes through the Woman, Mary, the lineal descendant of David (who as a male has no womb of his own). But the “Fruit of the Womb” is NOT the Ark Itself. The Fruit of the Womb is seen in the Items WITHIN the Ark – the Tables of Stone, the Jar of Manna, the Budded Rod. THESE come OUT OF the Ark, as the FRUIT comes OUT OF the Womb.
            These are not one and the same. Stop being self-confused.

          • Tuba

            I never said ark is David’s throne! Ark is Jesus, not Mary!
            You wrote: “The Fruit of the Womb is seen in the Items WITHIN the Ark ”

            This is the thing we can not agree, it is because in fact you
            have sucked deeply from bitter sources, not me!

            I am saying Jesus, the Fruit of the womb is the Ark, He has all these items in Him. That’s why He is The Ark, that’s why He is The Messiah, That’s why He is The Most Holy One, and Messiah was God’s Throne on the Earth, since God was in Messiah! He also was bleed as like Ark was sprinkled the covenant blood. Ark must have been bleed as signing of new covenant. And it was Jesus in new testament, Not Mary!
            Jesus has all these items in Him. How could not you see this fact! Messiah is the ARK. Ark of the Covenant was Most Holy object in the temple, Are you saying Mary is His Most Holy one? But I am saying His Most Holy is The Son, Jesus Christ. Why should I accept your wrong interpretation? Of course I will keep my mind close to this wrong interpretation. You are stuck on VERY SICK IDEA, NOT ME AND IT IS BECAUSE OF MARIOLOGY. I would get along with a Jew much better than with a Catholic, that is very obvious for me after hearing all kind of wrong thoughts here. A jew would get my point.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            You will notice that the ARK did not bleed for our atonement. Your command of English may hamper you here.
            JESUS is the One Who shed His Blood for us, fulfilling the role of the goat at Yom Kippur, whose blood was sprinkled, both on and around God’s Throne. He fulfills the role of the Paschal Lamb, in Whose Blood is our freedom from slavery.
            JESUS is the One Who bleeds, not the Ark.
            One day, I pray, clarity of mind will come to you. You will find that Mary’s tender love is very sweet. It will take the bitterness from both your heart and mind.

            GE-ology = the study of earth (gaia). DENDR-ology – the study of trees (dendra). ARCHAE-ology = study of ancient things (archai). CHRIST-ology = the study of Christ.
            MARI-ology = the study of Mary. This is something you should do — beseeching the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
            Then you won’t be making such confused, unbiblical statements. Scripture will begin to “come together” for you as God intended.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Tuba, you should rather ask, WHY DOES ST LUKE see Mary as the Ark? Then you could get on the right track.
            God’s Throne is the Ark. (Numbers 7:89). If JESUS is the ARK, as you insist, then does the ARK Sit on the ARK?
            Your confounding of this symbolism is nonsensical.

            JESUS * I S * the Eternal Word of God. (It is not just “inside” Him.) Of this, the two Tables of the Law were symbols.
            JESUS * I S * the Living Bread come down from Heaven. (It is not just “inside” Him.) The Jar of Manna was a symbol.
            JESUS * I S * the Great High Priest whose Rod budded. (It is not “inside” Him.) The Budded Rod was a symbol.

            GOD is not an “object.” Yes, the Ark was the most sacred object in Israel’s religion. The Tabernacle & Temple were built to house it. And yes, God chose the holiest place in which to come through nine months of gestation, to His Nativity.

            JESUS is not the “seat” of God; but Mary provided her lap to Him as a Child. This is how Christians showed them in the catacombs, when the Magi come to worship Him.

            If you will move past the bitterness of your teacher, you will find the Truth that is in the Incarnate Lord JESUS. It will bring you JOY. It will bring you deliverance.

          • Tuba

            I did not said Ark of the Covenant in the temple was God! Of course God is not an object, but this object were annointed by God Himself, that’s why noone could touch it! God’s Holiness were there.

            St Luke does not mention Mary as Ark. It is your misinterpretation. Mary is like a Levite who carry the Ark, Mary is like Israelities who contribute to built the Ark. God used Mary to bring Jesus’s flesh. But in this flesh, there was God dwelling, not any other spirit and soul, but God Himself. That’s why Jesus flesh was the Ark, so Jesus is the Ark of the Covenant.
            Yes, I am still saying Jesus is the Ark, Jesus is the Throne on earth of God. What does it mean a seat? God was in Jesus, so it makes Jesus both ark, so God’s throne too! It makes sense to me. You do not answer my previous question.
            How has ark been bleed for new testament?

            All items in the ark of the covenant were a symbol of the real ones. So real ones were not objects as you know. Word of God was symbolized as Stones in the ark, that was written on 10 commandments. Of course manna and rod were symbol of spiritual things, that you can not touch. They are in reality not objects. That’s why all these 3 ıtems were in ark of the covenant, were symbol of truths, which all of them were in Jesus’s God nature, in Messiah, in Him. Because God was in Him. Holy Spirit in Him. You do not want to see. It is not my problem. You answer me back with ridicilous arguments, even I did not mentioned about them as you claim for me.
            How can you explain to me Daniel 9:24. There is mentioning to annoint the Most Holy, what does statement refer as Most Holy and how this is fullfilled?

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            You do need some Reality Therapy, & training in logic, friend.
            St Luke doesn’t need to “mention” the equation he lays out so very patiently, Mary = the Ark of the New Covenant. He means you to *perceive* it, to “get it.” It is not “my” interpretation, but one held from earliest time, as paintings in catacombs bear witness.
            JESUS is not the “throne” (seat) of God on Earth. HE *IS* GOD on earth.
            You can admit that GOD is in the Flesh in JESUS. Therefore JESUS’ Mother is properly “THEO-TOKOS” — the God-Bearer, or simply in English, the Mother of GOD. This is because JESUS IS GOD. This is basic, biblical teaching.

            The Tables of Stone were real stone, with ten “Words” that were written with the Finger of GOD. (They were not a mere symbol, but historical, tangible reality.) The Jar of Manna was what Israelites actually collected with their own hands. (They could actually touch both Jar and Manna!) The Budded Rod was Aaron’s, & he held it, often. Bezalel also handled it, at least. (Ex. 36:1) These were ALL tangible. ALL could be touched. They all POINTED TO JESUS, and Who He IS. All were kept safely in the Ark, just as JESUS was safe in His Mother’s Womb.
            I will stand by this because it is true, despite your unbiblical denials.

            Only the *Levite Priests* were authorized to handle the gilded, finished Ark (Mary was not a priest); but the Ark WAS tangible. And yes, all these were anointed, consecrated. But that does not mean they ceased to be “objects.” What planet do you think we live on?
            Who ever said the Ark in the Temple WAS God? I never said such a thing to you, nor did I say you had said so.

            What relevance has Daniel 9:24 to this discussion? The Maccabees had to anoint everything that had been desecrated by the pagans in 167BC, when they reconsecrated the Temple at Hanukkah, the 25th of Khislev (mid-Winter), 165 BC.

            I am beginning to think that there is invincible ignorance at work here. But I am doing my level best to understand you.
            I am not sure I get what you mean by “bleed.” Is this an influence of French? “Blessee” = wounded. Ultimately, in English, the concept of Blessing traces to “Blood.” Is that what you mean?

          • Steve Smith

            We have a good word for this type of mindset Prelist, let our bible only folks look it up. Bible only groups have turned the bible into an Idol.

          • Amen. Spasibo, Steve.

          • Steve Smith

            Пожалуйста

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They can kiss it and hold it when they pray, but don’t let a Catholic hold or kiss anything when they pray.

          • Steve Smith

            Julie if you don’t know Perlist is a term we Orthodox use to describe spiritual deception, like thinking they are more gifted than us ginfull-sinfull.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Interesting, never heard of it. We sure need to use that these days. Everybody has a revelation these days – even though they go against scripture. I pray for God’s mercy.

          • Tuba

            I do not do such things.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba’s perfect.

          • AnthonyM

            Tuba-What is the question!

          • Steve Smith

            Too right, or we kiss the hand of a Priest to receive a blessing.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They’d believe you just worshipped him. When will they ever knock it off? They are so ‘spiritual’, that they don’t believe any object or person can be a channel of God’s grace. What did God tell Moses to do “Take Joshua, and lay your hands on him…Invest him with some of your own power, that the whole Israelite community may obey him”, …”Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom, since Moses had laid his hands upon him; and so the Israelites gave him their obedience…

          • Tuba

            You are very successful to make thing an idol, not us. If you accuse me of being faithful to God’s Words, you can accuse me ofbeing that much loyal and jealous but you can not say to me idol worshippers, you know it very well, I do not know at all.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why and how can you put any assurance from the Book that the Catholic Church canonized? You should run from it. It was made by the ‘diabolical’ Catholics that you so love to demean.

          • Tuba

            No one could destroy bible, God would never allow that happen, and you know what He did not allow. But it was not only your church. But they keep it very well, it is so much, so that they forget to look into it more deeply, they were more interested with being keeper of the cover of the bible.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Just make it up as you go.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            The Bible NOWHERE “rejects Mary and saints.” Rather, the Bible presents them all as “friends of Jesus” — and His Mother. If I were you, I would be careful to honor them as He does.
            You are imposing “traditions of protestant men” — not drawing your doctrine straight from the Bible itself. You have on a cracked lens while you read. “Check your glasses!”

          • Tuba

            You know very well what is the objections of “others” regarding Mary and Saint. Others too love them but they do not worship them. But you and your friends worship them but you are not aware of it.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            NO ONE who follows the teaching of the Church, as expressed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 787) worships any created being, but only the Divine Trinity.
            You are not seeing well. Again, I say, “check your glasses.” The Ever-Blessed Virgin Mother, and the Saints, are also called “the household of God” — our family in Christ. They cannot be “rejected” except at our peril.
            If you let the Holy Spirit guide you, He will show you the truth here, and lead you out of your present confusion.

          • Tuba

            Yes, they expressed but they did lead you to do exactly what they rejected in paper. I advice you to do samething, you check your glasses. Even just praying to anyone else as you do to saints, make them your god. Because it is another expression of faith, you express by doing this action, your faith and trust or hope in a creature beside God. But God wants to be your only hope and trust.

          • Tuba

            God never allows man to have spiritual relationship with other spirits. God is jealous God .Praying is a spiritual action, one does this when he/she prays to death saints who are in heaven. God never allows such thing, it is forbidden. No matter if they are saints (believers) or not. God did not any exception when he did forbid this action in OT. İt is a spiritual sin and spiritual sins are still same and forbidden.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            WHAT then is JESUS CHRIST doing on Mount Tabor at His Transfiguration, “speaking with Moses and Elijah about the Exodos which He was to accomplish in Jerusalem”? (St Luke 9:30-1) Is He not having a “spiritual relationship” with them?
            Properly speaking, no one “prays to” a saint, but asks the saints to pray *for* us. The saints always turn to Christ and the Father. It is not that they somehow have independent powers which might be exercised outside the Will of God!

            God is in the work of building relations within the Body of Christ. Every part of the Body needs every other part. No part operates solely on its own. Tuba. YOU have friends in Heaven who love & pray for you right now! And in Christ, you are not cut off from them.
            Before this was known, of course, God set strict limits, because there are demon spirits who would masquerade and deceive. Against them we must still battle; but Heaven is full of holy reinforcements, who yearn to help the Church Militant here on earth. (Cf. Hebrews 12:1, referring to the Maccabean martyrs, & other holy ones before Christ.)

          • Tuba

            First of all, Jesus Christ is God, He is God, so as He is God, He can talks to Death Spirits! But He said us to WHO we should pray and ASK for help!

            Does not matter if you ask from them to pray for you, the way is same, you talk to their spirits directly through prayer. How do you want or ask their prayers, do not you prayor talk to them in your spirit and soul? That is forbidden forever, God hates to see this action from us, because our spirit must be in relation with ONLY HOLY SPIRIT.

            Believers are useful and can help others in THIS LIFE, they can not do anything after they die, read what Paul wrote to Philippians 1:22-24

            22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

            23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

            24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

            And think about praying, what makes your prayer a prayer. Think this while you keep on your mind definiton of faith as written in Hebrew 11:1, Then you will realize that prayer is an action that is valid in this life. I wrote about these things before too. And do not give me as example of Revelation 8, where prayers of saints (be careful, it is not written only saints in heaven) reached to the God, it was a common prayer that is said by believers while they in this life. And at the end their this prayer will be reached to God to be answered, and answer of their prayer is clearly shown and it is judgement of wickedness and establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth.
            Yes, it is no sin to love saints, it is sin to have relationship with them in spirit as you exactly do with God. That is sin, remember you are God’s bride spiritually, you can not have chat with other spirits (spiritually), it is mentioned as spiritual adultary.
            Saints in heaven, they love us and they are waiting us, not praying but worshipping God day and night in heaven. Read Revelation.

          • Tuba

            We believers, can do the thing only Jesus did, if only we say “in the Name of Jesus”. That’s why Apostles did cast out demons, bring life back deaths, forgive sins, and do miracles that Jesus did. But they could do with The Name of Jesus. They do not become Godness, but they have that authority because God gave through His Son, and whoever accept His Son and Do these things in the name of Jesus, Only then they can do samethings that Jesus did. But again, doing these miracles and using this power never could make them as GOD, because at the end in essence they are human, not God. So They do not have authority or permission to talk to Death Saints as Jesus, Son of God, GOD did. All spirits belong to Him, not to anyone, and He is very strcit about it, and very jealous. I hope you would think about it more.

        • The other problem I see, Tuba, is that you see the Bible as a deity. This is an absolutely anti-Christian way of looking at it. The men who put together the Bible were learned, cultured men, who understood history, etymology, rhetoric, and Greek and Latin philosophy. The Bible is a document of its time, but the cornerstone of the Church. But the Church is who gave it its order, even when some of the books were edited. The only religion I know of who treats the book as if it fell from the sky is Islam. Keep that in mind while reading the Bible. It is the Church’s purpose to interpret it. The second someone else tries to, they simply make a mess. This is why so many people on this list who were former Protestants left running. They say the folly of treating Holy Writ as a god in itself, rather than inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, in the hands of man.

        • Proudvet56

          Why does Mark say both thieves insulted Jesus, and Luke say one asked his forgiveness. Is some one lying? The Catholics as I see it recognize the human aspect of, Whaddya know humans. Now there’s a novel concept. Humans with all kinds of flaws wrote the bible, and more than likely had their own points of view. Now from what I’m learning, the prophets of old were inspired directly from God. Did Jesus tell Matt,Mark,Luke,and John every word to write down? I hope you, and your church are as pure, and sinless as you claim to be on, you know, judgement day. I personally will put my fate on Gods promise of grace,and forgiveness. Though I’m not educated I’m smart enough to know not to rely how pure or how scripture savvy the church I attend thinks they are. Give this some thought.

      • One final thing – never, ever make the mistake that Apostolic Christians don’t read the Bible. We get more theology in one liturgy or mass than 99% of Protestants get in a year, as they read blindly and without context. You should attend a service one day, and then look for a book my Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, showing how every line in the liturgy comes from the Bible directly (except for the Cherubic Hymn, written by Emperor Justinian, a pious man who devoted himself to the Church). Why is it that you people don’t know anything but pseudo-history? You have bypassed a rich, glorious history filled with people who lived and died for Christ, while all I see in the Protestant world are crazed people who shake down unthinking folk who watch TV and pretend they’re doing their part in participating in the Body of Christ. If they are invalid, that’s fine, but rarely is that the case. This leads to a disconnection with reality, and is more the behavior of a weird cult than a church who has survived 2,000 years of oppression, maintaining the faith throughout.

        • billobillo54

          You should not slander the innocent bro. You are welcomed to attend my church (a Protestant Pentecostal Church) in the south. Our Pastor serves for no money. We support our denomination’s charitable outreach and we have many local charitable outreaches. We love the Lord and give generously in His Name. My Lutheran Church in the north has numerous outreach programs of many types. This is true of all Protestant Churches including even the apostate ones. Just because you watch TV and see televangelists and judge them for exactly what EWTN does (i.e. raise funds), does that mean that all Protestants on tv are “crazed?” And, how do you know that they are not doing their part for the Church? How do you judge such matters? Do you have inside information? It’s legit for you to criticize our theology, to judge any open practice of sin or of error, etc. But it is sinful for you to condemn those for whom you have no idea of the nature of their practices.

          • Biil, on my mother’s side, we were Lutherans (not American ones, but German from what are now the Baltic republics). I know quite a bit about it. Though I find tremendous theological problems with Lutheranism, the high church has, at least, valid sacraments (the low table does not, and are heretics).

            As for ALL Protestants on TV, you’re being intellectually dishonest if you think EWTN (by the way, I’m not Catholic, but Orthodox – we have no consistent television programs here in the US, but prefer radio or actually bringing people to church) to the snake oil dance that far too many do on TBN. No one considers, say, Billy Graham or Charles Stanley, to be at that level. They don’t pretend to be theologians – they offer a kind word. May God remember them in His Kingdom. As for a huge percentage of these others, they bring disrepute to Christianity. Even you, as a Lutheran, can’t be taking them seriously.

          • billobillo54

            Ok Bro Rudy, point out the Protestant snake oil salesmen. Don’t lump us all with the charlitans. Your words need clarification. That’s because from your earlier piece here you painted a broad brush. Here’s the quote: “while all I see in the Protestant world are crazed people who shake down unthinking folk who watch TV and pretend they’re doing their part in participating in the Body of Christ.” God bless you Rudy. Solus Christos!!!!!!!!

          • Okay, Billobillo54, you’re being a man of reason asking a fair question, so we will reason as brothers should.

            I did paint a broad brush. Do you really think that most people will have the time to highlight the fine points of 30,000+ heretical cults claiming to be Christianity? I don’t have that kind of time, though I’m fortunate enough to have work which allows me to take time to talk with people and be amused by the weirder comments I see on this forum (not yours, though we will obviously disagree theologically).

            As for examples, that depends on how old you are. When I was a boy, I was exposed to American Christianity in the form of “Reverend Ike,” one of the first proponents of Prosperity Gospel. During the 1980s, I remembered seeing people flocking to Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker, who were charlatans of a comical stripe, but at least understood the value of production. They should have left religion and started a sit-com instead. It would have been more honorable, as their errors in judgment led many to leave the Church and disregard Christ (these are his representatives on Earth? No thanks!).

            In these days, we have people like Benny Hinn, an apostate to Orthodoxy (he is an Israeli Arab who grew up in a Greek Orthodox home, but who fell in love with the almighty dollar and became a joke in the process).

            Creflo Dollar. Eddie Long. Oral Roberts. These people have done great damage to the name of Christ. I’ve withheld my opinion of people like, say, Kim Clement, Joel Osteen, or others, as they’re not pretending to be theologians, and in Clement’s case, their staff is willing to engage in civil discourse, which is to their credit.

            So, as you are not part of this world as a Lutheran, don’t consider yourself insulted. For all our differences, no one who is sane can criticize Lutherans of that.

          • billobillo54

            Dear Brother Rudy: I hear what you are saying. It is sad, but as Paul writes in Romans referring to the Jews as quoted from the OT: “…the name of God is blasphemed because of you.” This now applies to many in Christianity. I have learned from Psalm 50 not to disparage my brother:
            “You sit and testify against your brother and slander your own mother’s son.
            21 When you did these things and I kept silent,
            you thought I was exactly[c] like you.”
            I respect you as a Christian. I’m just saying that I would be careful before I judge things that I do not know.
            God bless you dear brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Brother Billo, you’ve shown great decency with that comment. I’m glad we can communicate in a good spirit. May God give you all that you need.

          • billobillo54

            I accept your blessing Bro. And I thank you for it!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Why is OK for you to do what Rudy is doing? Double standard again? The Catholic Church is the most generous organization IN THE WORLD helping the poor and downtrodden. The first to build hospitals, the first to build universities.

    • Proudvet56

      Tuba. You mentioned “pure” churches the other day. They don’t exist. Anything that has humans running it, attending it, or are governed by humans is impure. Your church has as many faults, and impurities as any other church.

      • Tuba

        I have mentioned for doctrinal base. My church teachings are based on Bible, does not have any addition that came from man, but bible. Yes, people are not always perfectly apply them in their life. But from doctrinal and teachings side my churches have been always loyal to Word Of God, that means to God, not Popes. My churches have been evangelical churches , you can say they are protestant, it is ok, yes, they are, but my churches are not lutheran or calvinist or any other reformist follower or agree with them in every aspect. Because these have also non biblical teachings. But my church is non-catholic and orthodox and protest their teachings that are obviously contrary to Bible. My Pastors introduce themselves as Follower of Christ, and churches are non-denominational churches. We do not have archbishops or popes. There are sister churches. In fact my first church was only, it was not related with any other church because there was not any church (in northern cyprus – it is turkish side). We started a church with 3 people there and I was one of these three. Now there are 2 church in two town and now have 40 people in church. They are Turkish people.

        • Proudvet56

          In the end times, many will say they represent the true God. I say it’s the new churches springing up. Now in my short journey I’m also finding out there are a bunch of bibles out there. Which one is yours? I’m also finding the Catholic bibles don’t drop old testament books, so they have the edge in my book.

          • Tuba

            You can not find any evidence from them about praying to deaths and Mary as Heavenly Queen! If you have write here. Still, bible itself with this way is enough! If you have Wisdom of Solomon which mention Jesus, There is also Proverbs Chapter 8 that clearly mentions Jesus. So this bible without apocryphal books is still enough. And also no one destroyed completely the other books too, if you want you can read , you can find easily. But again, even with these books you can not support your catholic orthodox dogmas, there is not any support in these apocrypha books.

            Without apocryphia, still bible is true and acceptable and trustwhorthy, right? If so, accept it as it is.

          • Proudvet56

            Interesting. I have never signed on to a doctrine here. All I have noticed is the only condemnation of doctrines comes from non Catholics, and non Jews. I am just now trying to understand God, and Christianity, and am seeing who the real judgmental churches are. Very interesting. I now know what churches to avoid.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tuba- how did Peter restore Tabitha to life? Why did he pray for someone who was dead? Why did Paul pray for his dead friend Onesiphorus? Why did David fast for dead Saul & Jonathan? We don’t need the ‘apochrypha’ as you call it to substantiate praying for the dead.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      In Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, the word for “wisdom” is Feminine in GENDER, not sex. (The American media can’t seem to grasp this distinction, & confuse their use of these terms. They are NOT equivalent. For instance, in Hebrew, things that come in natural pairs are always Feminine in Gender. That includes (-brace yourself) testicles! In Latin, the words for “farmer” & “pirate” (etc.) are feminine in GENDER, but take masculine adjectives. The grammatical form does not necessarily parallel the sexual reality. Hebrew, unlike Greek & Latin, does not have a “Neuter” form for nouns. So Hebrew writers are forced to use Feminine Pronouns in places were English, for instance, would use the Neuter, it/its.
      Poets are another matter. The art of poetry often takes a given Gender and uses it in an “artful” fashion, not to be taken literally.

      • Tuba

        I have not taken literally as sex, but gender. And I try to explain why the word “wisdom” has been used as feminine. There must be reason. All I said is Wisdom is Word of God, The Son came to the earth as human being as male, but from spiritual view, thinking of relationship between FATHER AND SON, God and His Wisdom, it is shown to us in our creation. That’s why I gave genesis 2:22-23

        22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

        23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

        24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

        Wisdom of God came from God The Father, and sent to the earth as human being, but in essence he (human Jesus)/ she (spiritual Jesus) is same with Father. But He sent to the earth. He is the spirit of God’s Spirit, Power of the God’s power, Spiritual Being of God’s Spiritual Essence. You can see what I am saying here. You are seem more clever than others. I have not talking about sex, gender, but others can not see that despite of my insisting , I always have talked it as gender, not sex.

  • billobillo54

    I understand the following from the Scriptures: 1) The anti-Christ will be a Muslim (Thank you for yor book “God’s War On Terror.” However, I did not just take your word for it, the Scripture indeed teaches this as you point out). THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS ARE ENORMOUS. THE WEST, INCLUDING ALL OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE FIDDLING AS THE BEAST SPREADS ITS TENTICLES AROUND OUR THROATS. 2) Turkey is at the heart of the Beast (again, thanks for the heads up from GWOT…the reference to Pergamum in Revelation along with the clear sense of the OT e.g. Ezekiel 38-39, et. al.). 3) The anti-Christ will desecrate the Temple in Jerusalem (As you correctly pointed out in GWOT, the Bible is an eastern Book. It is a Hebrew Book. The references to the Jewish Temple are clear in Daniel 9 and 11, in Thessalonians by the Apostle Paul and, as you correctly stated in the Book of Revelation. What you did not state is Jesus’ reference in Matthew 24:15. This is one of the most critical prophesies in the Scripture and references the Jew in “Judea” (aka “Judea/Samaria or The West Bank and the Temple in Jerusalem. Matthew, of course, added this command: “Let the reader understand.”). I don’t see any reference in the Scriptures to an ediface, buillding, etc. other than the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

    • Goober

      That verse in Matthew comes right before God calls his people out of her because her desolation has come.

  • momprayn

    Thanks again – great info. My “sense” right now is agreement with “billobillo54” about it being the Temple in Jerusalem that’s referred to but doesn’t rule out this other one either – in addition. This info gave me the notion that perhaps it IS very relevant to watch – as it may be a “precursor”/sign of what is to come later in the near future in Jerusalem. ?

  • AnthonyM

    I sometimes think Jesus must be somewhat disappointed in His followers. We build and dedicate things to honor Jesus, and then others just take them away, to defile and desecrate them, use them for their own purposes. Granted that many people died horribly to prevent the take over of Churches, old and new, but it seems we are just not getting the job done in His absence .

  • Winston

    Good supposition but I don’t think the muslims have what it takes to control the world. They are blinded by hate in such a way that precludes them from the skill to maneuver higher thought and are too reactionary. I do believe they are being used as a force for destruction by the shadow government in control of all world governments. Besides, they will be destroyed in war (Ezekiel 38 and possibly Psalms 83) and are more or less “useful idiots.”

    • Apolloone

      Hello Winston: I just happened to go to my spam file and there was an answer from you to my post from a month ago. Thanks for sharing with me I call it great news because you are seeing God’s light. It astounds me that more people cant get it perhaps they just don’t care enough, we are told to study and Christians cannot grow when they just rely on doctrines of men. I find the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church of Thessalonica

  • yahshua love’s you

    May the lord put a stop to it and block it and may the blood of our Armenian brothers and sisters be avenged in yehoshua Ben elohims name

  • Steve Smith

    How do you get that it is ”Spritual ” when the actual Greek is speaking about something physical, when you partake of the holy EUCHRIST.

    • concerned

      To Steve Smith:
      In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Paul speaks about the “temple” – “naos”, where the Antichrist sits. Paul does not speak about the holy EUCHRIST.

      • Steve Smith

        like I said naos is physical it is a real place.

        It is were God dwells that is what the word means.

        I take it that you are protestant, I am speaking In Orthodox Christian terms.

        The Eucharist is physical and ἐπιούσιον (epiousion (HEVENLY BREAD)made of bread and wine transformed by the action of the Holy Sprit,God dwells within your body.

        • concerned

          To Steve Smith
          I am not a Protestant. I am an Orthodox Christian.
          I repeat again: whenever Paul uses the Greek word “naos”, he means the Christians (read my very first comment). The Antichrist sitting in “naos” means that the Antichrist arises among Christians in a Christian country. Nevertheless, the Antichrist is a MUSLIM.
          Paul was not talking about the Eucharist, he was talking about the Antichrist.

  • concerned

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is the only place in the NT where Apostle Paul said that the Antichrist will “sit” in the “temple” of God.

    The Greek word “naos” (G3485) that Paul uses for the “temple” of God has a
    meaning of a “spiritual temple” of God. In fact, each time that Paul uses the Greek word “naos” in his writings, he ALWAYS uses it with a meaning of a “spiritual temple”.

    The Greek word for a physical temple is “hieron”, G2411. A perfect example where the word for a physical temple is used is Matthew 4:5.

    Matthew 4:5

    And Jesus went out and departed from the temple and His disciples came to
    Him for to show him the buildings of the temple (“hieron”)

    But what is the spiritual temple (“naos”)? Paul gives us the answer. Talking to the Christians, Paul says:

    1 Corinthians 3:16-17

    16. Do you not know that you are the temple (“naos”) of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

    17. If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple (“naos”)
    of God is holy, which temple you are.

    Paul says that the Christians are the “temple” of God. Paul says the same in: 1 Corinthians 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Ephesisan 2:19-22.

    I repeat, in his writings, Apostle Paul ALWAYS uses the Greek word “naos” to mean a spiritual temple, to mean Christians. ALWAYS! He NEVER uses the Greek word “naos” to mean a physical temple.

    If we use Paul’s verses (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) in our analysis of prophecies, we MUST use Paul’s definition of the Greek word “naos”.

    That automatically means that, although the Antichrist is a MUSLIM, he arises among Christians, in a Christian country.

    Yes, Turkey will havea leading role in the End of Times. Yes, the Antichrist is a MUSLIM. But, the Antichrist arises in a Christian country. There is no way to go around it.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      I question that “Naos” is always a “spiritual” temple. Take this back to Homeric Greek, where a “F” (“di-gamma” = 2 stacked gammas, sounding like “w”) separated the two vowels, = nawos. From this it is easy to see the Latin cousin, “navis”, often mistaken for “ship”, but originally meaning “temple” — applied to the length of a church. The same is true in Greek, where “naos” applies to the church as a whole, “a temple.”
      St Paul may use it in a “spiritual sense” but he does not exclude the physical.
      The body of a Christian is a *physical* thing, “wherein the Holy Spirit makes His dwelling” (to quote a famous hymn by Bianco di Siena, music by Ralph Vaughn Williams, 1906).

      • concerned

        To Christopher P. Kelly:
        If we analyze 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, written by Paul, we must define the Greek word “naos” exactly in a way that Paul defined it. Paul ALWAYS defined “naos” as Christians. Of course, Christians have physical bodies.
        The point is that the physical body of the Antichrist arises among the physical bodies of Christians. The Antichrist arises in a Christian country, although he is a MUSLIM. That is the whole point.

        • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

          There is nothing in 2 Thess. 2 that takes the context in a non-historical direction.
          Hieron’ (Temple) = a place where a hierefs’ (priest) is to do holy things (hieros’). Nawos = a divine dwelling-place. These are two views of the same building.
          The distinction you are struggling to Impose is rather like saying “car” is not equal to “automobile”. One is old English, adapted to a new invention; the other looks under the hood to see how it runs.
          {Note that in Milton’s “Paradise Lost,” satan is riding in a “car” — not a late model Mercedes-Benz! To John Milton, the word meant a “chariot.”)
          You are forcing St Paul’s language into a mould of your teacher’s making.

          • concerned

            To: Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            I am not “forcing” anything into St Paul’s language. We MUST take into consideration what Paul meant when he used the Greek word “naos”. Whenever Paul used the Greek word “naos”, he ALWAYS meant Christians, living breathing people, not some kind of a structure like a building.

            So, it is not me, but you are trying to force into St Paul’s language what he did not mean.

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Yes, you Are forcing it.
            St Paul uses “naos” eight times. Some are “spiritualized” or metaphorical use – Christians are likened to the temple, they are the dwelling place of God. (I Cor. 3:16-7; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21)
            BUT in the passage you proposed to “prove your case”, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, St Paul refers to Future Time, a “Pauline apocalypse” referring to the Second Coming of Christ, in human History (– unless you deny that!) Here his use of the word is NOT metaphorical or “spiritualized.”
            Just because an author uses a word one way sometimes, or even many times, is not a proof that he means it that way at every single use. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT.
            “A text without a context is a Pretext.”

          • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

            Yes, you Are forcing it.
            St Paul uses “naos” 9 times. Sometimes he means this in a “spiritual” or metaphorical sense. (Acts 17:24; I Cor. 3:16-7; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21)
            But in the very passage you cited to “prove” your case, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, it is very clear that in this “Pauline Apocalypse,” the Apostle is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ, at a point in historic time (– unless you want to deny this, too).
            He is Not using the term “naos” in a metaphorical way, but in the natural sense that any other speaker or writer of Paul’s day would use it, of a real stone and mortar building. He is using it the same way Daniel does, of an actual place, a real space.
            Paul is declaring that this will “really happen.”

            Just because an author has a *tendency* to use a term in one way does Not preclude him from using it in *another* way on a different occasion. CHECK THE CONTEXT.

            “A text without a Context is a PRETEXT.”

            Your “teacher” misled you. Question your “teacher.”

  • Steve Smith

    Can we all get back on the subject The Great church of Christ H’agia Sophia. I am WORN OUT by all the Doctrine discussions, I do not feel like typing an encyclopedia.

  • Lidia

    Great video! I always wondered what it looked like before. It was a beautiful church! It breaks my heart to see it ruined by the Turks.

    • Steve Smith

      I just wish we could see it in all it’s glory, not under all that tacky yellow plaster.

  • Truly fascinating article. Much I did not know – then again, I am no scholar. Erdogan is a menace to civilized peoples everywhere.

    • Steve Smith

      I agree with you on Erdogan, he reminds me of the flying monkey from OZ.
      There are several Byzantine Churches being turned back into mosques, a loss for Civilization.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      And Obama counts Erdogan as his “best friend” among national leaders! Erdogan says, “Democracy is like a train. You take it to where you want to go; then you get off.”

  • Erdogan
    imprisoned most of the CHP (the Kemalist party) through the Ergenekon
    show trials. He has steadily moved more toward Sharia law. He speaks
    in a cadence not unlike Hitler.

    Islam, though I don’t like to generalize to all Muslims (there
    are many secularized Muslims), is a MARTIAL religion. It was designed
    by a warlord for a warlike people, at war. The entire community of
    Islam breaks down like a military, with Mohammed (and after him, the
    Caliphs/the Sultan) being the Supreme Warlord.

    It’s very name means “submission,” and its followers are those
    who “surrender.” In the concentration camps, they guards used to call
    those who had given up “Muslims.” This isn’t some accident of history.

    The German nobility, indeed much of the nobility in Europe,
    was close to the Ottoman empire. If you think about the history of WWI,
    the Germans and the Austro-Hungarian empire (Central Powers) were
    allied with the Ottomans against the Western powers, who you could
    arguable call the Christians… The end of WWI also ended the the
    Ottoman Empire, during the war murdered between 1.5 million and 2.0
    million Armenian (and other) Christians. Before the infamous genocide,
    there were also the Hamidian Massacres, which saw the deaths of
    approximately 300,000 Christians and Armenians.

    If you fast forward to WWII, and think of the movie Patton,
    you’ll remember that the Germans were called “the Hun.” This, of
    course, was a reference to the non-Christian hordes to destroyed Rome.
    Germany is odd like that – some aspects of the nobility and military
    never seemed to be Christianized. Hitler, before he went vigorously
    after the Jews, went after the Catholics with extreme prejudice. And it
    was with the Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al Husseini, that the Germans
    sought to mobilize the Muslims and Turks across Asia and the Middle
    East. A very good argument could be made that it was Husseini, who was
    there on the ground during the Armenian genocide, actually taught the
    Germans the ways of modern genocide.

    What scares me most about
    that article is that Turkey is developing closer a relationship to
    Algeria. Algeria has already waged two wars against the Muslim
    Brotherhood – back during the revolution against French rule, when the
    Brothers tried to create an Islamic state in a land of secular Muslims,
    and then again during the 1990s, which involved the same elements of
    modern al Qaeda. Algeria, believe it or not, has pretty close relations
    with China. Given China’s ongoing and intensifying struggle with
    Islam, I could see the Chinese intervening.

    How Russia and England fit into this picture is a long story,
    but I’m sure you already see how ugly the politics looks. Add in
    organized crime and the drug traffic, and, well, this is why I really
    wonder how we get out of this without a conflagration on a global scale.

    • Fr Christopher P. Kelley, DD

      Don’t forget the tens of thousands of Christians massacred in Damascus in the 1860s. See Bat Ye’or’s documentation in “The Dhimmi.”

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The changing of times and laws is in the Muslim system – Sharia Law is the changing of laws, and the Muslim calendar begins in the year 622 AD, changing of times. The Muslim year is based on a lunar (lunar/lunatic) calendar, having 354 or 355 days.

    • Apolloone

      I’m looking for a Biblical reference that gave the church permission to change God’s Sabbath to Sunday. Since the Christ worshipped on the Sabbath (Saturday) I am curious when this came about I belong to no religious such as the 7th day. It is clear that God said the Sabbath was forever. The coming mark will most likely be a forced Friday or Sunday worship. I cant see that Islam can be the Great Whore when they never belonged to God to start with to be a religious whore. Whore of the spiritualis clearly defined in the Bible and Islam doesn’t fit, and this makes this woman of Revelation 17 a former spiritual wife of God, that left Him for another spiritual lover.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        After Christ’s resurrection, He appeared on Sunday, the first, or “eighth” day (eight = new). He walked along the road to Emmaus with 2 disciples and gave them, by example, how God was to be worshipped in the New Covenant. First, reading from scripture, second, the breaking of bread. He did this on Sunday. The Book of Acts records that His followers did this on the ‘first’ day of the week. If you need a reference to the church having “permission’ to do anything, it is in Matthew 16:19. Jesus gave His authority to “Bind” and “Loose” singularly to Peter, and then later to all the Apostles. If you aren’t familiar with the OT, you don’t know what these terms means. To Bind and to Loose is to have legal and judicial authority to making binding pronouncements upon God’s people, or to loose those pronouncements. So the Church has this power to change the date if they want to – Jesus already established Sunday as the day to worship the “new’ covenant and it has been faithfully followed as such for 2,000 yrs.

      • Woody

        You’re over your head with Julie; she is correct “binding and Loosing” under Hebraic law is the terms they used for changing religious laws. After Jesus founded His Church on Peter (1 reference of many written in the 200s–History of Christianity, by Eusebius).The Scriptures are never “crystal clear,” for if they were you would not have over 41,000 Protestant churches all making up their own interpretations of verses, then if someone disagrees with them- “they take their ball and go home,” finding only one more church which disagrees with all the others.

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  • Namir

    DEATH FOR ALL MUZZIE RATS! TERRORIST RAPERS PEDOFILES fatimasharmutas

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why do they deny the trinity if they have all the answers? Why do they state that Jesus was Michael the Archangel incarnate?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Tuba – Did Peter pray for a dead person? Yes or No.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Who’s fooled? Me or you? 2,000 yrs of constant Christian witness & testimony uphold the truth of the Church of today. Your attempt to smear Origen is out of prejudice because he didn’t believe like you do. “We however believe that there are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…” ” And for this reason, throughout the whole of scripture, not only is divine nature spoken of in human words, but the human nature is adorned by appellations of divine dignity.” Jesus said that the gates of hell WOULD NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT – that means forever, from beginning til end. And Peter was given the KEYS to the kingdom – I’m sure you don’t know what OT scripture that is taken from (Isaiah 22:22), so you make up what you believe the keys are. Jesus sits on the throne of David His Father (that’s scripture). You need to study the Kingdom of David to understand what Jesus said and meant and DID.

  • architecture mindgames

    a greek orthodox church ! http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Αγία_Σοφία_(Κωνσταντινούπολη)
    from greek mind and heands !! explain that to your readers !!!!!!!

    . It was designed by the Greekscientists Isidore of Miletus, a physicist, and Anthemius of Tralles, a mathematician.[8]

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”? Hebrews 1:5 “”Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I AM in the Father and the Father is in me. The words I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who DWELLS IN ME is doing His works.” John 14:12. “God will provide the lamb for the burnt offering.” Genesis 22:8. Jesus is this lamb. I suppose you think Michael the Archangel is the lamb of God.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    “You are the CHRIST, (that means anointed one, the Messiah), the Son of the Living God.” Angels can’t save. “the Holy spirit is God’s ‘active force'”. You have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit – the only unpardonable sin in the Bible.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Your cult is the same as the Muslims, you deny the cross. Roman crucifixions were done on a CROSS, not any upright ‘stake’, which common sense and physics should tell you it wouldn’t be able to hold up a grown man. The lambs that were slaughtered for the OT Passover had a wooden stake going up their back AND across their shoulders for roasting. The horizontal cross-beam symbolized God becoming Man, and the upright symbolizes God and Heaven.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    How many times has the Watchtower predicted the second coming, and have bombed out every time. FALSE PROPHETS.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    JW’s have a covenant with an angel. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, slain before the foundations of the word ( before anything, including angels, were created) Jesus HAD TO BE GOD because HE made the covenant with us. You have no valid covenant.

  • shoebat

    Larry, I am not sure why you come here to tell us that no one knows the end when in 1914 was it not your Charles Taze Russell, the idiot who predicted the end of the battle of the great day of God Almighty, as cited in Rev. 16:14? Charles Taze Russell actually thought the Great Pyramid in Egypt was one of God’s Witnesses.

    • Proudvet56

      JWs. Another cult maybe? I know someone who is a 7th day I think they call themselves. He said that the Pope knows 2 minutes before a disaster is going happen, or any cataclysmic event. I had to laugh at him. I said really, like the 2 minute warning in American football. But he said he(the Pope) gets his power from Satan. I’m seeing a common thread here Walid. They hate Catholics.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Ellen G. White is as false a prophet as Charles Taze Russell was. They are basically one and the same in that respect, both camps came out of the same movement – people who “Got God” when they thought God was returning soon. Sold all their crap and went to a mountain to await. He never showed up.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      They have a miniature replica of the pyramid somewhere.

  • shoebat

    “WHAT kind of fool do you take me for???”

    An obvious one.

  • shoebat

    Larry, I had enough these days from cults and their arguments. Please stick with the topic of the article. I have no patience for your attempts to analyze God under your microscope.

  • shoebat

    In Revelation 1:8, it says: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    This First and Last is God.

    Then Revelation declares:

    “These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” (Revelation 2:8)

    “Died and came to life again”.

    Do you see that?

    So answer please; when did God die?

    Please respond without playing Scriptural gymnastics.

  • shoebat

    Stop your gymnastics. You ignored to answer; who is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last?

    “These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” (Revelation 2:8)

    When did the First and the Last die?

  • shoebat

    Larry, why go to the Watch Tower to find out, isn’t the Bible sufficient for you to simply read it and accept it? The First and the Last died, this is Jesus and He was God in the Flesh. The Son gave His life and resurrected.

    “These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” (Revelation 2:8)

  • Julie LaBrecque

    What does YASHUA mean? Do you see the YAW in there? I don’t see any derivative of Yah in Michael.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Rev 7:10 “…Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, AND FROM THE LAMB.” If you will notice, the angels stand AROUND the throne. The angels prostrate themselves. “For the Lamb who is the CENTER of the throne will shepherd them.” Rev 7:17. The very temple in heaven is Jesus. What angel has a temple? Jesus in enthroned ABOVE the angels. Is Michael sitting above himself?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why does the Watchtower keep changing the date? Since Jesus did not return in 1914, they decided that He did indeed come, but INVISIBLY. The Bible tells us that His 2nd coming will be VISIBLE – people will see and hear it. Is He coming 3 times?

  • Woody

    GEE, i FOUND ANOTHER CANDIDATE :

    REMEMBER JESUS, OUR DEVINE FOUNDER’S Biblical Words “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Thank You, Jesus and now let us put it to the test to these brilliant guys and gals on this site:

    In going on 6 months now, no one (except 2 and they got it
    right) has been able to solve or even guess at the answer to my quiz?

    How come no one else can solve the “mystery?” — Why
    — the Largest Christian Church in the World by far with 1.2 Billion members (the Catholic Church); yet, no Founder of this Church apparently can be found (an oxymoron?)

    All churches have a founder—why not this one???

    Have at it, people.
    FORMAT AS BELOW:
    Christian & Bible Churches
    Founder
    Year
    Country
    Nr: Members

    Judaism
    Moses
    B.C.
    Israel
    10.7 MILLION

    Catholic Church
    Founder?????
    28 A.D.
    Judea
    1.2 BILLION

    Lutheranism
    Martin Luther
    1517 A.D.
    Germany
    75 MILLION

    Swiss Reformed Church
    Zwingli
    1523 A.D.
    Switzerland
    2.4 MILLION

    Mennonites
    Several Founders
    1525 A.D.
    Switzerland
    1.5 MILLION

    Anglican Communion
    King Henry 8 I AM I AM
    1534 A.D.
    England
    85 MILLION

    Calvinism
    John Calvin
    1536 A.D.
    Switzerland
    80 MILLION

    Presbyterianism
    John Knox
    1560 A.D.
    Scotland
    40 MILLION

    Baptist Churches
    John Smyth
    1605 A.D.
    Holland
    100 MILLION

    Dutch Reformed
    Michaelis Jones
    1628 A.D.
    Netherlands
    2 MILLION

    Methodism
    John Wesley (Charles wrote many hymns)
    1739 A.D.
    England
    75 MILLION

    TOTAL ALL PROTESTANTISM
    600-800 MILLION

    Amish
    Jakob Ammann
    1693 A.D.
    Switzerland
    0.25 MILLION

    Quakers
    George Fox
    1647 A.D.
    England
    0.4 MILLION

    Moravians
    Count Zinendorf
    1727 A.D.
    Germany
    Congregationlists

    Robert Browne
    1592 A.D.
    England
    Swedenborg
    Emanuel Swedenborg

    1747 A.D.
    Sweden
    Brethren
    John Darby
    1828 A.D.
    England

    Latter-day Saints
    Joseph Smith
    1830 A.D.
    NY, USA
    15.2 MILLION

    Seventh Day Adventists
    Ellen White
    1860 A.D.
    NH, USA

    Salvation Army
    William Booth
    1865 A.D.
    England

    Jehovah’s Witnesses
    Charles Russell
    1870 A.D.
    PA, USA
    7.65 MILLION

    Christian Science
    Mary Baker Eddy
    1879 A.D.
    Pleasant View, NH USA

    Pentecostalism
    Charles Parham
    1900 A.D.
    CA, USA

    Worldwide Church of God
    Herbert W. Armstrong
    1933/1947 A.D.
    OR, USA 3

    Unification Church
    Sun Myung Moon
    1954 A.D.
    South Korea

  • Woody

    Neither is Paul going to the bathroom…whoa what happened to sola fake scriptura )no mention by any Christian writer before 1517 if so give me the quote

  • Woody

    Yes, and St Paul hold fast to these traditions…or by letter; and his to Timothy …. the foundation and pillar is the Church (not scripture and this guy wrote a lot of it.

  • shoebat

    You are playing gymnastics again. You added the word “one” to the text of the Bible. Again, and for the last time, In Revelation 1:8, it says: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    There is no “one”, “a mighty” “an alpha” “an omega” and now when you read “the Amighty” it sets the whole issue that this person speaking to John is God and Jesus. This First and Last is God.

    Then Revelation declares:

    “These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” (Revelation 2:8)

    This First and Last is the one who died and came to life.

    Stop listening to the WatchTower society. The most well-known of all the New World Translation perversions is John 1:1. The original Greek text reads, “the Word was God.” The NWT renders it as “the word was a god.” This is not a matter of correct translation, but of reading one’s preconceived theology into the text, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.
    It is only the Watchtower’s pre-conceived heretical beliefs that are behind the dishonest and inconsistent translation that is the New World Translation. The New World Translation is most definitely not a valid version of God’s Word. There are minor differences among all the major English translations of the Bible. No English translation is perfect. However, while other Bible translators make minor mistakes in the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek text into English, the NWT intentionally changes the rendering of the text to conform to Jehovah’s Witness theology. The New World Translation is a perversion, not a version, of the Bible.

    • Proudvet56

      Maybe he should see your video on the 666, and how you explain the symbols on the cloth(bandannas) on their heads. The one at the church with the Pastor Van- something. That was awesome bro. the whole audience had their eyes opened. Like light bulbs coming on in their heads.

    • Woody

      Can you send my email to fr kelley & Julie?

  • Carlos Perla

    Wallid I’ve just found that the word “Ala” means snake in ancient turkish

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  • mardabo

    The god of fortresses which the man of sin worships is Satan. The anti-christ worships him with his deeds, not overtly as he would with a recognized religion.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The word incarnation isn’t in the Bible either – do you believe in the incarnation? There is nothing in the Bible that even implicitly implies that Michael became flesh. Michael is not sitting on a throne. Michael is not a king. Michael is not a priest. If you will study Revelation, Jesus is Priest ( Lamb standing as though slain, offering sacrifice to God on sinners behalf), Prophet (gave the revelation to John), and in Rev 12 King (ruling with an iron scepter, prophecy of the Davidic King in Psalm 2:9 and Isaiah 7:14 ), beside other titles. Michael is a prince – not a king, therefore he is subservient to the King of Kings. The Jehovah Witnesses supplanting of Jesus as God is no worse than what Lucifer did in his rebellion trying to supplant God. Please tell me how an angel can make a covenant. Please tell me how an angel can make a sacrifice on behalf of sinners. Please tell me how an angel can be the King of Kings.

  • shoebat

    How do you put up with reading and responding to all this crappy biblical interpretations?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      My first instinct is just to ignore and let them stay in the pig sty – then charity prevails and remember that we are to be light. I do tire of it – especially to JW’s because NOTHING we can show them will change their deluded minds. As regarding the trinity- I’ve always taken the prescription of God being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as another reference to God subsisting as three- the trinity.

  • shoebat

    “Revelations tells us of a wealthy harlot full of abominations that rides this beast. This can be none other than the Roman Catholic church. ”

    You sound so certain, which makes you dangerous.

  • Proudvet56

    They can’t admit they are wrong.This is amazing. They have eyes,they don’t see,they have ears they don’t hear.Why do they try to deny their own humanity, and that the Bible is a story about humans, and how they connect with God, but worst of all they verse shop the way leftist lawyers Judge shop to win their cases. Thanks for the good reading Julie. Yashua bless you. :<)

  • Proudvet56

    Why then was Jesus called Emanuel(God among us)?

  • Thought I’d drop by and see if I missed anything. Nope.

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  • Maranatha

    After years and years of research, I have come to understand–mainly through Shoebat’s teaching –that the anti-Christ will probably come from the muslim world.
    I am open minded and that concept is easy to accept.
    I have however–being a ”Berean”–some hurdles to overcome regarding the aC defiling of Hagia Sophia to be the biblical prophecy.
    If that is true ,….how the stopping of the Jewish daily sacrifice have a chance of happening in that church?..as Daniel 9:25-27 states?.
    I still think this defiling will still happen in Jerusalem.
    .

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