The Biggest Church Coverup In All History About Bible Prophecy, Islam And The Soon Coming Armageddon EXPOSED


By Walid Shoebat (Shoebat Sunday Special)

This is perhaps the most crucial four thousand words you will ever read regarding Bible Prophecy and how history will repeat itself where the top clergy covered up the most serious threat to the church in all history.

It was Martin Luther’s eschatology and interpretation of prophecy that made the realities of his time. This reality trickled all the way down to our time, setting a standard on how Christians viewed Bible Prophecy. The end times, to Luther, was interpreted as having practical implications for a Christian’s life and actions where eschatology provided the basis, not just for political issues, but for pastoral advice in his time which still exist today for much of western Christianity.

For example, in our times we see politician Mike Pence made declarations about Turkey which stems from Luther’s paradigm on Bible Prophecy. Today in Turkey we see trouble at Incirlik air base, a coup, and a complete Islamist takeover which happened on July 15th, 2016. Yet there is no sound of any alarm from church pulpits. Turkey is rising again as it was in Luther’s day to threaten Christendom once more.

In Luther’s day, this same Ottoman threat arose with him responding to the threat from a prophetic paradigm that still repeats itself today:

“From the prophecy of Daniel 7, Luther concluded three determined realities that shaped his entire perspective on the Turks: (1) the Turks would never conquer European Christianity; (2) they [the Turks] would never be conquered by European Christianity. (3) they would always oppress Christianity militarily.” (Eschatology And The Turks by Nicholas Proksch from Bethany Lutheran Theological Seminary)


All three as it turned out were wrong assumptions. So why wouldn’t history repeat itself?

The Turks, according to Luther’s view, which we still see today, resembled no serious threat, since Luther believed that the real serious threat would arise out of the Roman Empire which according to him was the fourth beast with its ten horns signifying ten nations that were once part of the Roman Empire. Luther did not know what to do with the Ottomans who were rising at his time to threaten the church. So instead of viewing them from the whole of scripture, he was confident that the Turks must somehow occupy “some prophecies” while he ignored the bulk of verses that spoke of this threat etched by John in the Book of Revelations. According to Luther “the Turk is also so great and powerful… [and] such a powerful thing has to be stated in Scripture” and so Luther reserved Islam’s prophetic role as “the Little Horn” while reserving the Catholic Church as “Harlot” and the Holy Roman Empire as “the beast”.

How such “Catholic Harlot” rides this “Muslim little horn” which biblically only rises after the ten other horns was unexplained by Luther. Revelation 17:3 mandates that this whore in “the desert” “sat upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Although Islam was the main threat to Christendom from before Luther and during Luther and after Luther, yet to Luther, the more insignificant the Turk was made, the better it was for Luther’s arguments and actions to fit neatly in his faulty paradigm. Luther’s reaction to the Ottoman beast had terrible consequences. While Luther’s main paradigm in his eschatological interpretations turned out false, Luther believed that the Turks were ‘a chastisement,’ ‘a scourge’ and a ‘rod in the hand of God’ to ‘bring Christians to repentance’. Luther, instead of encouraging preparedness, he instructed fatalism since in his view:

“the Turk ―has good fortune in waging war against Christians and usually gains the upper hand and obtains the victory… [but] here in Daniel it is announced beforehand that Christians are punished here on earth on account of their sin and the innocent are made into martyrs.”

In other words, when it comes to Ottoman victory, to Luther it was “God wills it” and so not much should be done. How can an “innocent” be deserving to be “punished” was an odd observation. In other words, in Luther’s view, the Catholic Church deserved the Turks who were according to Luther’s interpretation only a “little horn” which cannot expand beyond to Germany since God protected that nation.

Luther’s reason for pointing the Ottomans as this “little horn” was that in his view the Turks had conquered three Roman dominions: 1) Egypt, 2) Asia Minor and 3) Greece, which according to Luther’s reckoning, was a clear fulfillment of Daniel 7:24. How Luther separated “Greece” from “Asia Minor” (Greece after all is in Asia Minor) was another oddity. Luther simply jimmy-rigged his theory to fit a text.

This is also classic interpretation in our days, where people find a number in the Bible (3 horns plucked out of the root) and equate it with a current incident making a grand claim out of it. And since this little horn uproots only three, using Luther’s textual isolation, he believed that the Ottomans resembled no danger to Europe (especially Germany) since they can only knock out and uproot three horns from the Roman Empire and nothing more.


Luther’s error is simple to explain. In his view, the Holy Roman Empire was the beast, which also included Europe. Since Luther sits in Europe, he was already living in what was destined to be Antichrist territory in the ends of days which this separate little horn only knocked out three of its previous provinces. Therefore, this “little horn” will not knock out any other horns, so he was safe and Germany was also safe from Muslim wrath.

Luther’s eschatological blunders should be a lesson which must be revealed and exposed since the bulk of Protestant Christians still follow a similar error. Fitting a handful biblical verses without applying all other verses has been incredibly the most dangerous outcome to western Protestant Christian society.

Secondly, listening to the famed theologian interpretations is another folly; correct interpretation belongs to the “maidens” and “elders” (Joel 2:28) who according to Joel will add “visions” and would be inspired through “dreams” which added a clearer understanding to prophecy. For one example out of many, the Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser (August 24, 1613 – May 20, 1658) whose works was considered as inspired by God, was a German priest who understood prophecy and broke it down to seven epochs (seven time periods) considered that in “the sixth epoch” of the Church, he  predicted from studying the Apocalypse that:

“The Turkish Empire shall be broken up, and all nations shall come to and worship their [own] God ..”

Saint Francis of Paola, as Joel predicted that elders will utter prophecies; Paola was born 27 March 1416 and died 2 April 1507. Among other instances, for three years before it happened, several times he foretold the taking of Constantinople by the Turks, which prophecy was verified May 24, 1453:

“Under the personal command of Mahomet II. He also foretold that Otranto, one of the most important places in, and the key of, the Kingdom of Naples, would fall into the hands of the same infidels, which, in fact, happened in August, 1480.”

He also remarkably predicted certain victories for the church:

“But he also promised the Christians, and especially the pious John Count, of Arena, one of the generals of Ferdinand I., king of Naples, certain success the following year, when, in reality, the Christian arms recovered that most important city, and drove the Turks completely out of Italy, therefore, the princes of this world be prepared for the greatest scourges to fall upon them.”

These provided victories and not fatalism as Luther did. These encouraged, that besides “overcoming the saints” that “many will do great endeavors”.

While Luther was not far off from recognizing the Ottomans playing a role, he caused a disaster for Europe. Luther was somewhat correct. After all, the Ottomans did “emerge from meager beginnings,” as Luther explained, but he was oblivious to the Ottoman’s further expansions into Europe. Luther’s European paradigm simply did not fit the reality at hand. That, plus Luther’s error is that he did not understand the significance of “beasts” in the Bible as the Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser completely understood it with perfect precision.

The latter (misunderstanding beasts in the Bible) is one major misconception which still trickles down to millions of Protestants in our time. Today, the bulk of Christendom think that “beasts” are exclusively regarding “end-times”.

What Luther missed and what Holzhauser got, was that scripture clearly signifies that “beasts” encompass  threats to the entire history of God’s people, even including Israel’s time period prior to Christianity. This rule in fact is etched by John the Revelator where a sequential order is clearly addressed including post Israel (the Church). When John in Revelation 17:10 addressed “the seven headed beast” he says “five have fallen” (past) these are pre-church which encompassed Israel and then he addresses there are two remainders after the 6th (Roman, during the church period of John’s day) and then the two “the other that is not yet” is regarding a threat to the church age after Rome’s conversion. This 7th was what Luther faced and lived with, is also the 8th which re-arises at the end of days.

These (two consecutive beasts) is also confirmed in what every Christian must know. It is so crucial. In the book of Apocalypse by John, it was destined that the Church suffers “two beasts,” both separate in time and are not to arise at the same time. John clearly addressed this. The error many fall under (which was Luther’s folly) is that they believed these “two beasts” arise at the “same time”. This is a significant error. John clearly pointed out two remaining beasts (yet they are of the same entity) which come after the sixth. The first beast in the church age is stemming from the same entity as the second and is the last beast which we see arising on July 15th, 2016 from Turkey.

Pay extra attention. The first stems “out of the sea” and is taken to “the pit” and the second stems out of the pit and back into the pit. John confirms this. As to the first, we find:

“And I saw a beast [first beast] coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.” (Revelation 13:1)

This is the Islamic threat which Luther completely missed since he missed that beasts encompass a span of history. Even the ten horns, they do not sprout all up at the same time. These are consecutive and sequential. This first beast with all its ten horns arising out of the sea (Mediterranean sea) then later on went to the pit in the 19th century to later on sprout out of the pit (the earth) as the second beast in our time:

“And I saw another beast [second beast] coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns, like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.” (Revelation 13:11)

This “spoke like a dragon” is the “red dragon” of Revelation 12 with the crescent moon. It has two power pegs in Turkey (leopard) and another in Iran (bear).


Please note, that historically, the seven heads fit Islam’s seven Caliphates. These have been swallowed up by the pit and now is coming as the second beast “another beast” back from the earth (the pit) but with two power pegs and not ten. The seven heads (Caliphates) are counted from the first to the seventh. We count the horns as each was taken over by the next, while we also count each appointed crown (or Caliph/horn) keeping in mind that each crown is transferred to the next Caliph. This construct also supports what we see in Daniel’s chapter two four kingdoms. We had Four Main Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman) yet there were also  seven caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid, Ayyubid, Almohad and Ottoman) and ten crowns which represent the seven caliphates that also arise in the end as the second beast with two horns (Turkey and Iran). With prophecy, everything must fit like a glove. These are seven in four. Three were plucked out of the root by the Ottomans (Fatimid, Ayyubid and Al-Mohad).


There are four main caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abasid and Ottoman) with the other three within this same timeframe (Fatimid, Ayyubid and Al-Mohad) adding to seven caliphates (heads).

Everything fits like a glove. Even the crowns. The Rashidun which sparked the conquest of Christian Syria in 637 and later Armenia. It had two, (1st crown) Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq and (2nd crown) Hasan ibn Ali’ , Grandson of Muhammad  Son of ‘Ali ibn Abi-Talib’ which branched into the Shiites. This sprouted the two horns and is why it is a  “divided kingdom”. Then the Umayyad Caliphate (second head, 661-750) was appointed Muʿāwiyah ibn ʾAbī Ṣufyān (3rd crown) centered in Mecca and Abd-ar-Rahman III (4th crown) centered in Christian Spain and North Africa and reached to east China borders and southern France Africa Morocco. Then the Abbasid Caliphate (third head with two horns (750-945/1258/1517). Founded by Abul `Abbas al-Saffaḥ or the butcher (5th crown) centered in Baghdad and Al-Mustansir Billah (6th crown) centered in Cairo. Then the Fatimid Caliphate (fourth head 910-1171) which was founded by al-Mahdi Billah (7th crown) established Fatimid rule (Shiite) throughout much of North Africa, Hejaz, Palestine and the Levant. Then the Ayyubid Caliphate (fifth head 1171-1260) with the famed Sultan Saladin (8th crown). Then The Almohad Caliphate (sixth head, 1147-1269). The Alomhads (9th crown) ruled major areas of the Maghreb and Muslim Spain. Then the Ottoman Caliphate (1517–1923 the seventh head), founded by Selim I (10th crown) and by that he was the tenth and final horn. This one encompassed all and is the seventh which also arises as the eighth (in our time) as the 11th little horn (spans 7 years) and this one comes as the two last horns of the lamb that speaks like a dragon with crescent moon (Revelation 12).

Whoever persecuted the church throughout history must be the beast (the threat) mentioned in scripture. Nothing in history so perfectly fit like these seven heads and ten crowns. Anyone who disagrees must answer: where else would anyone find a beast that persecuted the woman (the church) like these seven Islamic dynasties?

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The cause for these errors in not understanding that prophecy spans history is selfish in nature. It is as if God only cared about the Christians in a specific time as if God cared little to guide the Church throughout history.

But because Luther saw the conquest of what he considers only three Roman fragments at the hands of the Turks in his time, he could draw no other conclusion. To him those historical details were identical to the details prophesied by Daniel. To him the “little horn” is an entity outside of this paradigm of ten-horns. And since the Ottomans opposed God as He was revealed in Christian Scripture further substantiated Luther’s interpretation and eschatology. Daniel 7:25 prophesies that the “little horn” will “speak against the Most High” since Muslims, denied Christ’s office and divinity. That the “little horn has a mouth which speaks awful things” corresponds to the “horrible blasphemies in which Muhammad not only denies Christ but also fully exalts himself and asserts he is above Christ.” Luther even identified Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20 as “the Turks”. However, he failed to tie these into the rest of Daniel and Revelation. Unfortunately, this error still exist today where Ezekiel 38 is isolated as a battle with a Russian (plus Islamic invasion) separate from this revived Unholy Roman Empire headed by a harlot in the Vatican.

To Luther he cared mostly that Germany (his ass) is safe and to him prophecy ensured it.

But Luther’s myth that the Turks will strictly and only pluck ‘three horns’ was busted when Turkey invaded Hungry in 1542 and were planning to go to Germany by passing through and invading Poland.

It was only then that Luther’s anti Christian Militarism went out the window where Luther cloaked it explaining that militarism was Christian but only and strictly when it is declared by secular government. Eastern Europe was ravaged by Suleiman’s army and Luther began to do some date setting that the Ottomans will “invade Italy and Germany in 1600” or “1606”. Luther wrote:

“In 1600 comes the Turk to lay waste to all Germany.”

When the Ottomans began to gobble up parts of Europe, Luther began to adjust his interpretation that whatever the Ottomans took besides the three horns are simply “scraps” which they will soon return back:

Daniel does not give him any more horns. On account of this, it is to be hoped that the Turk henceforth will not conquer any more lands of the Roman Empire…. If he steals away and tears off something at the boarders and neighbors, that’s his nightcap for a good night. (see here)

It was as if the house was being robed and the watchman was telling the owner to step aside and let the thief get his fill since he is only occupying the backyard. The center of the Christian world after all and according to Luther was Germany:

the German Empire ―must remain until the Last Day, no matter how weak it may be.

Luther’s colleagues explained Luther as partnering the Turk with the Pope:

 “The Pope is the spirit of antichrist, and the Turk (Muslim) is the flesh of antichrist. They help each other in their murderous work. The latter [Ottomans] slaughters bodily by the sword; and the former spiritually by doctrine

Yet in Luther’s writing, he strictly identified the Antichrist with “the Pope” while the Turk was simply an aberration and strictly the beast of Revelation 20:10 which was Muhammad. That according to Luther, Muhammad is “the beast of the east” and the papacy was the “beast of the Catholic west” and that only protestants are the true church. (Martin Luther and Islam, page 84)

But in Luther’s view, because the Turkish “little horn” of the beast displaced three horns, Luther considered the Turks far more powerful than any one of the remaining seven remnant nations of the Holy Roman Empire and so he thought that it can never be defeated by Europe. Luther never thought that the world will continue beyond the 1600s.

Both claims were wrong as the Ottomans collapsed in the 20th century. It was defeated by western Europe, especially a pro-Catholic crusading Protestant named General Allenby. Not only was Luther counterproductive, but he had thought and taught that the territory of three nations (3 uprooted horns, Egypt, Greece and Asia Minor) were permanently plucked and uprooted by the Muslim “little horn”. To him, there could be no hope of taking back anything the Ottomans stole since this was already etched in the Word of God. Thus, in Luther’s estimation, a crusade to retake lost land would not only be contrary to the Christian theology, but was also downright folly and predetermined to fail. This was proven false. Even Jerusalem was returned and an Armageddon erupted in the very Valley of Megiddo which uprooted the Ottomans from the Holy Land in 1918.


Battle of Megiddo (1918) in the Valley of Megiddo

And since the “little horn” in Luther’s fatalistic view would wage war and “overcome the saints,” there was no room in his eschatology for Christians militarily to prevail overall for the remaining time before Judgment Day (see Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Luther’s Last Battles). Luther completely ignored that “many will do great endeavors”.

Luther who opposed ecclesiastical authorities for ‘self-flagellation’ was himself a self-flagulating x-monk. He considered fighting against the Turks to be opposing God himself. According to Luther, God punishes the people for their sins because they ‘do not punish themselves’ all the while he condemned the ecclesiastical authorities for waging wars and crusades to reconquer what the Ottomans robbed.

In a way, Luther believed that Europe deserved to be raped. He (like many today) believed that individual Christians were not called to resist, but that temporal authorities (secular authority) must protect their subjects. Luther’s eschatological paradigm made him to be pessimistic regarding the outcome of particular campaigns and is why we see many today oppose the Crusaders.

This was well etched in the ‘big-deal’ story–Luther’s ‘Ninety-Five Theses’–Explanations of the 95 Theses, 1518. In it Luther argues that when it comes to the Muslim invasions by the Ottomans that the pope cannot remit God’s punishment because he cannot drive away the Turks who are the lash and rod of God.

He clearly considered that fighting against the Turks to be opposing God himself who punishes the people for their sins because they do not punish themselves. Instead of focusing on combating the Turkish invasions he focused his criticism toward ecclesiastical authorities for waging wars and crusades against the Turk. This was the bulk of church arguments in Germany, England and later in the U.S. This is why Christian militarism is frowned upon even until today. As a result of this type of eschatology and theology,  the United States, John Adams, cozied up to the Ottomans, to even declare that the U.S was not a Christian nation in order to appease Islam. Such declarations were not only made by Obama who is suspected by many to be Muslim.

In essence, and as it turned out, Luther was Lucifer’s best agent doing the work of the enemies of Christ.

On War Against the Turk by Martin Luther (1529) regarding Islam and resistance to the Ottoman Empire which was written during the most critical period of territorial expansion by the Ottomans in Europe which marked by the capture of Buda in 1526 and the Siege of Vienna in 1529. In it Luther argued:

“…as though our people were an army of Christians against the Turks, who were enemies of Christ. This is absolutely contrary to Christ’s doctrine and name”

There is no difference between this and the daily troll who comments on blogs. These always ask for chapter and verse as to “where did Christ ever teach warfare?” And by this the troll would obliterate the entire Old Testament just because the New rendered the Levitical laws ‘obsolete’. It is arguing as since we are done with eating pork, therefore we must be done with Joshua’s wars and the Maccabean revolt as an example for the survival of God’s people. It was the classic “throwing the baby out with the bath water”.

“We must obey God rather than any human authority” argued Luther as does today’s troll. Nothing changed today as we read the daily comments “I only obey Jesus Christ” (which at face value sounds good) while they rebel against church authority.

Again, the church age suffers two beasts (two massive threats);  one comes as a “seven headed beast” to also come again as the second beast in the end as “a lamb with two horns”; which is the “the eighth” kingdom of the Antichrist’s empire (see here for much in depth detail).

Interesting that the last beast spans 2520 days (7 years) and all beasts from ancient Israel till now span 25 centuries. Interesting also that the wrath spans 1260 days and Islam’s first beast spanned 12 centuries. The second beast is exactly the seventh (revived) as two horns. Today we see the threat in this re-arising second beast which is a “leopard [Asia Minor] bear [Persia/Iran], and a mouth of a lion [Babylon/Arabia]” and it will rule for 1260 days while committing the abomination of desolation which is banning Christians from communion.

Even the “mouth” fits, as all verses in Scripture when speaking of Babylon it addresses literal Arabian (the mouthpiece of Islam) which are the districts in scripture “Tema” “Dedan” “Kedar” “Dumah” and “Arabia” and even every occurrence where we see “Babylon is fallen is fallen” in Revelation 14 and 18 it addresses Arabia with the same rendering “Babylon is fallen is fallen” in Isaiah 21 which strictly addresses Arabia.

Even the dual usage “is fallen is fallen” alludes to two falls: first when Arabia (the harlot) betrayed the Ottomans (the beast) in World War I, the Ottomans began to lose their seat and so they shelled Mecca and the Black stone during the rule of Sharif Hussein. This was one “fallen” to be counted. Scripture insists that the “beast” destroys the “harlot”. And so it will be when the Ottomans revive, Mecca will be totally destroyed, but this time by Persia (see Isaiah 21). This is the second “fallen”.

This would make the beast with both its historic and future composites as having participated in her destruction; Turkey in World War I and Persia in World War III. This fulfills precisely what John declared that the revived beast destroys the harlot and burns her (Revelation 17:16).


Obviously Luther missed that his animosity towards the papacy clouded his spiritual vision. This is why anti-popes missed the other woman; this dragon was after the sons of God and specifically the sons of Mary who honor and love the woman of Revelation 12. This started in 632 A.D when all Christians honored Mary. Historically the first beast did not persecute the Protestant church and in fact in the sixteenth century the Protestants cooperated with the Ottomans during their war with the Catholic League. 

The persecution against the church finally turned around between 1871-1876 A.D lasting 1260 lunar years (1242 solar years) after the first Muslim attacks and from when Christendom (Arab-Byzentine Wars) erupted in 629 A.D.

Indeed. It was in 1871 A.D., that the tables turned where God hit the Ottomans with natural catastrophes.  

Even the wheat was extremely rare where “food sold for ten times the normal value” (2):

“Food was so scarce that the little available sold for ten times the normal value. Although the rains came in 1871, there was no easing of the famine, for the farmers had no seed to sow.”

“A drought in 1872 led to massive crop failures across the Empire. Locust swarms denuded Cyprus of crops. A harsh winter led to widespread starvation. Dead bodies were seen on the streets of Istanbul and packs of wolves were observed attacking people in the suburbs.”

“Two pounds [a quart] of wheat for a denarius” (Revelation 6:6) went on to 1915, even a greater famine where locusts invaded Turkey and the entire Levant region. Locusts even invaded the Ottoman sympathizer at the time, the United States when John Adams cozied up to the Ottomans (as they still do now) and declared in the Treaty of Tripoli: 

“the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

In fact, if you still do not believe, here is a photocopy:


All this mess for misinterpreting few verses. The troll therefore must ask himself as to why he machine-guns verses of scripture. Does he ever seriously contemplates that a false interpretation has eternal consequences?

Therefore, you shall know them by how fast they cry “s c r i p t u r e”!

In the meanwhile, I will go romance Maria. Its her ‘Saturday night special’:


  • Trevor

    Thank you, Chef, for your tireless efforts to educate us simpletons. Enjoy your Saturday with your lovely bride. My best to the Shoebat clan.

    • Trevor

      The piece on Venerable Bartholomew is an interesting piece. Is there a link to his works? I am intrigued because of his mention of “seven epochs” which is in line with fourth century saint, St. Niphon, who recorded in his vision that the Lord asked Michael the Archangel to bring to Him “the Books of the seven millenniums”, and it was in the seventh millenniums that the Lord decided to cut short mankind’s lifespan:

      The Lord Jesus looked in the Books and read and He finally got to the last one, the Book of the last millennium. He read:

      “The beginning of the seventh millennium is the end of time. Evil becomes a normal day-to-day thing, fornication, perversity, cruelty. People of the seventh age are mean, envious, liars, two-faced, worshippers of money and power, vain, slave to lust and deception and all the bad things that anyone can think of.” He read a little bit further, He read something and He became sad. He covered His face with one hand and spent some time with His face covered like that, thinking, then He whispered, “This age is definitely worse than any other, injustice and evil rule this time.” He read further: “Greeks and their idols were hanged with the wood and the nails that they used to crucify Me, the Life Bearer.”

      He became silent for a few minutes. Then He read again:

      “12 commanders of the Great Emperor, bright as light, they shook the sea, brought the beasts to silence, drowned the thinking serpents, gave sight to the blinds, sated the hungry, made the rich poor. They fished a lot of lost souls, giving them new life. Their pay will be great…” [This is clearly a reference to the first apostles].

      Then He said again…

      “Me, the Lover of Mankind, I chose the witnesses, and they got the victory with My help. Their friendship went all the way to Heavens and to My Throne. Their love touched My heart and their sacrifice is burning Me inside. My Glory and My Power is with them.”

      After He turned some more pages, He smiled and happily whispered:

      “The man who was the emperor of the seven hills of Constantinople was the servant of My Love. He deserves the Heavens for being My humble and fervent servant.”

      After He turned a couple more pages, He said:

      “Oh My beautiful and Holy Bride! How many enemies and evildoers tried to bring you down. But you didn’t betray Me, Your Groom. Innumerous blasphemies were said against you, but the rock that you have been built on never moved, because the Hell could not conquer it.”

      He was reading further a list of all the sins of men that have not been forgiven through repent, because man didn’t repent for them before they died. Those sins were as numerous as the sand of the sea…

      The Lord read them all, and very sad, He shook His head.

      The great crowd of all angels was before Him, shaking like leaves, terribly scared by His Anger. Because they knew that He was right to be Angry!

      Going through the Book of the seventh millennium, the Lord said:

      “The end of the seventh millennium is full of the filthiest sins and of the filthiest and dirtiest of the human stench: lies, envy, hate, blasphemy, anger, revenge, partying, drinking, fornication, murder, abortion, greed, money worshipping, and grudge. I will cease it halfway. Let’s end this sin loving world.”

      And saying these words, He was very angry. The Lord made a sign to Michael to start the Judgement.

      St. Niphon’s Vision Of The Firece Judgement Day

      I really believe we are in the seventh millennium and are rapidly approaching the cut off point.

      • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

        It is the year 7522 Anno Mundi now, the year 7000 was 1492 AD, the discovery of the New World by Columbus, and to Pious Russians of the time, the beginning of the ‘Age of Antichrist’.

        • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

          Btw, I take those years literally true, without compromise, even if it makes me look foolish in the eyes of the world. I will stand with the Fathers, with Christ. Christ believed in Noah’s Flood. If He was a liar or deluded (Christ forgive my insolence in repeating the blasphemies!), then He was not God. But He was, so His Word, His Word is True.

        • susan


        • Trevor

          And how did you calculate that?

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            “Byzantine Creation era” Calendar;


          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            I’ll ‘ add that it is well known historically that in the year 7000 AM (1492 AD), many Orthodox Christians in Russia were convinced that the End Times were upon them very closely, but the Church worked out the Liturgical Calendar all the way out to 8000 AM.

          • Julie

            I reference the Hebrew Catholics whose Jewish calendar is about 5600…not exact here, though because of my own memory issues

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            I prefer the Septuagint over the Masorah, which was compiled centuries after Christ in a manner calculated to deny Him wherever possible in the wording. Luther’s Bible is based on the Masorah. So, we’ll see

          • Julie

            The Septuagint is the most accurate translation of Sacred Scripture, and even more the one Our Lord and the apostles used.

            Luther was trying to find a ‘pure’ version so he went back to that Mazoretic text..stlil don’t have the spelling right….but did not foresee the coming of the Messiah as Christianity does.

            The compilation of the Masoretic …still not right spelling… was marked by 200 Jewish rabbis squabbling and dissenting.

            The Septuagint was marked by 70 rabbis kept in isolation by Emperor Ptolemy to compose the books of Scripture, and when finished, they all came forward with no dissension but supernatural unity and communion….every page, paragraph, word equal to all others.

          • Trevor

            Ok. Having read through a bit of it, we should know that nobody have been able to pinpoint the exact year of creation. Even the citations of the early Church Fathers shows some variations. I think it’s a mistake to yet to calculate the years or Age of Antichrist as you did.

            If we take the words of St. John in his first epistle, we have been living in the last days since the apostles’ time! As Peter said, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God. Time is irrelevant for God since He’s established time for seasons for our behalf. Further, in a video, an Orthodox elder says that 1917 was the beginning of the Last Days. So we should avoid trying to calculate the days because so many have tried and failed to pinpoint the time of Christ’s second coming.

          • Julie

            I just shared the Hebrew Catholics want us to study the Jewish Calendar….and theirs goes back around 5600 years….

          • Trevor

            Again, Julie, the problem lies with the simple fact that to God, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day. It mean nothing to God as He is outside time and space.

            I think there is a reason the Church have not placed so much emphasis on eschatology because, as Jesus have said, today has it own set of problems. We are to live for today, each day, because “life is a vapor” (James 4:14), so we may be breathing today, gone tomorrow.

            The Didache placed emphasis that the Church strongly encouraged all believers to regularly meet together to be disciplined, strengthened, exhorted, and living daily in expectation that Christ will return.

            I think the reason the Church is now becoming invested with eschatology is to refute Protestants’ view of eschatology, especially the prevalent of the pre-tribulation rapture theory which is unsound.

            So, instead of studying the Hebrew Calendar, we should be constantly examining ourselves and living in expectation that Christ may return at any time.

          • Julie

            Yes….but you should also read former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger’s, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’…and the context of Christ within the Jewish calendar….

            Among the ancients of Israel, the Feast of Life, the Feast of Abraham was on March 25.

            Christ chose to be born in the constellation of Aries the Lamb. Recall the Angel Gabriel pointing out the ram stuck in the bush for Abraham to sacrifice instead of his son.

            The Church celebrates the Incarnation of Christ in the womb of the Pure Virgin March 25. And so December is indeed the feast of Christ’s birthday….etc. etc. etc.

            Judaism is the foundation of Christianity….

          • Trevor

            “Judaism is the foundation of Christianity.”

            Do you know how long it took me to arrive at that conclusion? 35 years. It’s only recently I began to see the Jewish’s influence in the Mass.

          • Julie

            Strongly advise you read Tom Nash’s ‘The Biblical Roots of the Mass’…or Dr Scott Hahn’s ‘The Lamb’s Supper’….My Jewish friend became an Evangelical Christian. She asked to go to Mass with me…and went into great culture shock…she had to reaffirm with me she was still Jewish….I was in college then and did not understand why she was so upset…but she understood the movements and meanings….but the fulfillment as well.

          • Kelly ann

            St Paul said the church is the foundation and pillar of the faith

          • racarrera

            Jews who go visit Orthodox churches are stunned by the similarities.

          • Trevor

            I’m not a Jew and I’m stunned by the similarities.

          • racarrera

            The structure of the liturgy is such that, outside of the seventh part, being the Eucharist, the rest remains utterly pre-Fall of the Temple Jewish.

          • Trevor

            So much for the charge that the Apostolic Church is anti Semitic.

          • racarrera

            That doesn’t mean they won’t try to accuse us.

          • Trevor

            Yep, already had to deal with one simply because I quoted St. Ignatius’ words on the Antichrist, and he said, “Those who says that Jesus is a mere man is a Jew,” or something to that effect.

            One commentator was so aghast at it he accused me of being anti-Semite. So I reminded him that Peter said that the Jews killed Jesus and he did his damnedest to spin away from that. I dropped him like a radioactive potato and walked away.

          • Kkdgrace

            A reading of James Bertsein’s book “Surprised by Christ” really highlighted for me the similarities involved. Such an excellent book.

          • racarrera

            Amen to that. Fr. James ‘ book should be mandatory reading for those Jews who think they’re doing something right when they mix Judaism and Christianity in a bastardized form.

          • Kkdgrace

            It also gives us such a sense of the flow of the Christian Faith, right from her earliest roots/beginnings. She hasn’t lost that “Jewish flavor”, present from Her very beginnings- so much has been preserved from those earliest days….if only those with eyes to see would take a hard and honest look. It’s one of those things that attracts me so very deeply to the a Orthodox Faith.

          • racarrera

            You hit on something that most people don’t, kkd. You have been taking a hard, honest look. To be a ‘friend of Jesus’ isn’t enough for you. You’re seeking Theosis, which is the ultimate goal of all Christians, not to be the ‘homeboy’ of the Lord of whatever gross bumper sticker marketing technique fundamentalist and non-denom ‘churches’ are using these days.

            I was reading today that in Russia, Patriarch Kirill noted that there have been 10,000 churches and 20,000 clergymen added to the church. This, with a church that has no fear of science, no fear of engaging with the public or in political matters, unlike the cowed ‘churches’ who worry more about their 501 (c)(3) status than being bold in their faith.

            People like you seek a brave church, and a brave church seeks brave members like you.

          • Wilma Mills

            Trevor, how can he return at anytime when we have to first see a great falling away and that man of sin be revealed. You’re right Christians are taught by the Bible that his return is also imminent. That’s why some of us believe in a 2 phase second coming. The first resurection happens in phases. The OT saints raised when Christ did. NT saints raised at the rapture and at the end of the tribulation. After that last phase there, the Bible says, ” This is the first resurection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurection, on Him the second death hath no power.” “And the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (millennial reign) were finished.” This is the resurection of the wicked dead.
            I have a question. If purgatory is true, and we know the resurection happens at a certain time, how does everyone’s purgatory get finished at once?

          • Wilma Mills

            Trevor I appreciate how you’ve always been kind in these discussions. Very refreshing.

          • Trevor

            You asked this question that I have already answered in the previous comment. I am really starting to question your grasp of the Scriptures. It seem that you are neither interested in learning why the pre-tribulation is based on flimsy reasoning and was not taught by any Church authority until Darby came along in the 1800s. He later recanted after he realized his error, but the damage was done.

            For the third and final time, I cannot find one Church Father who taught that there would be some kind of rapture that would whisk every Christians to safety before the tribulation. It is inconsistent with the Scriptures and wholly inconsistent with God’s consistency. The best way to avoid the tribulation? Death. Every resources I have searched using the query, “Early Church Fathers on the Second Coming,” have made clear there is a uniform belief that the tribulation will occur with the arrival of the Antichrist and that Christ will return to destroy the Antichrist.

            As for purgatory, I have made it clear my opinion that I believe purgatory is the final trial that all must go through. I do not have the authority to change the Church’s doctrine on purgatory, and I am simply interpreting purgatory in the light of reading St. Niphon’s vision of the final, terrible judgement of Christ, and seeing how his vision is consistent with the New Testaments.

            It is clear that none of my comments are getting through to you because you are stubborn in your insistence, based on flawed reasoning and handling of the Scriptures and ignoring the early authorities on the Scriptures. At this point, I am going to cut my loss and move on. This is the final comment I will have on this matter and I will dialogue about this no longer.

          • Wilma Mills

            So you’re bucking the church fathers on the doctrine of purgatory? Doesn’t being a Maverick damn you automatically? The Catholic church is the biggest hoax ever played on humanity.

          • Trevor

            I think you have a huge reading comprehension problem. I said it was my opinion. And no, the Church will not damn me for asking a very serious question. The Scriptures says to question all things, hold fast to the truth.

            You say, “The Catholic Church is the biggest hoax ever played on humanity,” and I will ask you, “What of the Eastern Orthodox church?” Are they too the part of the “hoax” played on humanity?

          • susan

            Wilma is in rebellion against God and His Holy Church. I’m not sure Wilma even HAS a church.

          • Grandmere

            I leave both Wilma and Filomena alone. There is no way to reason with either one.

          • susan

            We might as well be speaking in parables. They don’t see or hear.

          • Trevor

            I’m done. I dust my shoes off.

          • susan

            It’s interesting how we respond to history. For me it was wonderful to learn about the Eucharist, confession and Mary and the Saints. The mystery of mass. I was so happy!! I went and shared it with my family and friends. Their response was very much like Wilma’s. And people were angry too!!! I could tell you all kinds of things that people said and did. :(. Satan hates it when someone learns their history and scriptures and returns to the Catholic church. Or the Orthodox I imagine.

          • Susan, I share your experience about learning these things. It is wonderful. I’m still very new and haven’t yet experienced the rejection, though I have on forums, including here by a few who say they are Catholic. Definitely experienced it from Protestants. They marginalised me and cut me off fast. I expect to be bloodied and bruised by the time it is over.

          • susan

            lol. This is a rowdy bunch at times. ;). But if I’ve offended you I may or may not have meant to…sometimes it takes something offensive to make us learn our scriptures and history in order to fight back 😉
            Well, you have a support group here! :)). The saddest thing i see with the Catholic Church is its melding with the world. We don’t use incense any longer since we lost our last Priest. And we don’t discuss the Saints or Feast Days anymore. Our tabernacle light is now a battery lit candle. This disturbs me a LOT! May God lead you to a good Priest who hasn’t compromised. :). I’m tempted to visit an Orthodox Church if i can find one..just for the rich mystery of mass… We don’t say novenas any longer. Or the St Michael prayer. Our homilies are now very Protestant. I like our Priest…i just wish he were more Catholic.

          • You offended me? Nah, you don’t seem the type. The support group is very good. Your other comments are disturbing about the church. I’m out in rural area and it is tough to connect with anyone. I’m in the same state as Chiglac. I’m attracted to both the Roman church and eastern Orthodox and nobody is near. I do have a few small issues. Not deal breakers. Questions. At 62 I kind of feel my time is limited. I need to pray more.

          • susan

            My time is limited too I’m afraid. And I need to pray more too. The first two things (sacraments) that brought me to the Catholic Church was the Eucharist and confession. The rest were seeds that began to grow after I obediently did the first two. :))
            I’ve got to go now but feel free to ask questions. I did! ;).

          • Wilma Mills


          • Trevor

            Then we have no further need to continue this pointless dialogue because you are truly blinded.

          • Wilma Mills

            Says you.

          • At some point it just becomes arguing for arguments sake, doesn’t it? Some simply love to stir the pot and debate. It isn’t a matter of sincere inquiry. They may even win the debate because they are better at debating. Yet, they could be 100% wrong, which clearly is the case here.

          • Trevor

            I agree.

          • Wilma Mills

            My goal is to get people to question what they believe and compare it to scripture, but I’m done.

          • It seems a noble goal Wilma but there is something obvious you don’t see. Fill a room with people discussing the bible and soon they will be debating, then arguing, and soon it degrades into name calling. And they are all basing their many opposing views on the bible. I was called a heretic for trying to point out the necessity of baptism. the bible is not enough and thankfully we are given much more. But you have to go to the early, original orthodox, apostolic churches to get it. You then get the early traditions and the consensus of understanding on doctrine from those who were nearest to the apostles. Don’t forget, there was no bible for 400 years.

          • susan

            Indeed!!! The whole purpose is to learn—not what WE think is correct—it is to learn what Jesus said and did–to learn and practice in word and deed and even in our thought lives —what was passed down to us–to ensure that the deposit of faith remains pure and free from error–and is truthfully passed from generation to generation.
            Thank you Craig 🙂

          • Wilma Mills

            Yes , I know, religion and politics always degenerate into “snarkiness,” unless the parties are all in agreement.

          • But you still miss the obvious point. Everyone is calling on the bible for their sole authority and they can’t come to agreement. And some views are extremely at odds. Sola Scriptura, introduced by Luther does not work. It results in chaos and never ending fragmentation, schism in what was once the one church. However, the Lord and His apostles did establish a church which he said Hell would never overcome. That church has existed from then until now, long before there was even a bible canon. The only way to find life giving truth, unchanging is to go to the orthodox, catholic, apostolic church which has existed long before there were any churches that emerged from the rebellion of Luther. It is simple fact. If you want to know what they teach and why, ask them. Don’t ask somebody who has no use for this church. Their answers may surprise you.

          • Wilma Mills

            These churches are all splits and have at times all excommunicated each other. The true Church is made up of all who have the Spirit of Christ, born again ones. Hell will not win against them.

          • The church that was established had structure. Bishops for example. this was established by the apostles who taught and those they taught did so with others and appointed others to positions of teachers etc. These spiritual gifts are not for the ones who have them. They are always for others. You think if someone says they have a gift they must have some position in the church of Christ. The gifts were not given for them. They were to help someone else. You reject the one church because you think you have some gift and thus you are THE CHURCH. NO, you aren’t. You may be a finger or finger nail. Devoid of the unbroken church you have a problem. You become the interpreter and sole authority of all things. This is false and you must look past it. Far past, to the first and ever prevailing church of Christ.

          • Wilma Mills

            No that’s not what I think. I think that when the scriptures were completed some of the gifts were discontinued…and NOW abideth faith, hope, and charity, these THREE. We don’t need them anymore. As for who is in authority, Jesus said whosoever is strong among you, let him be your minister. God gifted the church with THE 12 apostles, pastors, teachers, and whatever she needs to do her work. I’m a member of Christ’s church because his Spirit lives in me. “His Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God.” “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself.”
            “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.”
            Do you have this witness?

          • There isn’t a thing I have to say to you because you ‘know’ everything already. I feel certain you would read the ancient church fathers, you know, the ones who died for their Lord, and would believe they were misguided in what they taught.

          • Wilma Mills

            1 Jn 2:20~But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
            27~But the anointing which ye have recieved of him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

          • Yes, I get it. You consider yourself as having as much authority as any in the church. Here is but one sample of an apostolic believer, Ignatius writing to Polycarp regarding marriage and the prominence of the bishop.
            >Flee evil arts; but all the more discourse in public regarding them. Speak to my sisters, that they love the Lord, and be satisfied with their husbands both in the flesh and spirit. In like manner also, exhort my brethren, in the name of Jesus Christ, that they love their wives, even as the Lord the Church. If any one can continue in a state of purity, to the honour of Him who is Lord of the flesh, let him so remain without boasting. If he begins to boast, he is undone; and if he reckon himself greater than the bishop, he is ruined. But it becomes both men and women who marry, to form their union with the approval of the bishop, that their marriage may be according to God, and not after their own lust. Let all things be done to the honour of God.
            And the first sentence following this reads:
            Give ye heed to the bishop, that God may also give heed to you.
            Comment? I already took the challenge to examine my beliefs and it lead me directly to the ancient apostolic church which the Lord founded and has been here from the beginning. All your cherry picking will do you no good in the end when the Lord asks you why then if you believe in me did you not do as I say?

          • Wilma Mills

            I’m not saying I have authority. I am one of the least in the church. Each member can know good from evil, can see the wolves in sheep’s clothing,and gain whatever wisdom we need for life. Ja 1:5~” If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given Him.”
            “Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.” We will judge angels.. A female, Deborah, was a judge of Israel.
            Our pastors are not to be “lords over God’s heritage,” but are to be
            “ensamples to the flock.”
            If someone is given responsibility to oversee and watch out for us, we submit to them, but we can be wise enough in God’s word to know when we’re being led astray, or being abused, and we don’t have to take it.

          • susan

            These are Wilma’s words: ”
            The true Church is made up of all who have the Spirit of Christ, born again ones. Hell will not win against them.”

            These are the words of Jesus:
            Matthew 16:18
            “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

            Any questions?

          • Wilma Mills

            Before this statement, Jesus asked the disciples who do you say I am. Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus told him, flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but my Father which is in Heaven. Jesus was saying his church is built on this kind of faith and confession. The church is not built on a man. “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” The keys to the kingdom is the gospel of the grace of God through Christ. All believers have these keys, they can tell people how to get into Heaven. We’re the only creature God uses now to save men’s souls. You put all these rituals in place to shut up the kingdom to men and neither do ye go in yourselves. Now go have yourself a guest fit !!!

          • Wilma Mills

            Jesus had just ask the disciples, who did they say he was. Peter answered, “Thou are the Christ the Son of the living God.” Jesus told him flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, “but my Father which is in Heaven.”
            This statement of faith given to Peter by the Spirit of God is the foundation Jesus was speaking of. The church is not built on a mere man. “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
            The keys to the kingdom are not some set of pretty skeleton keys, but what opened the gates of Heaven to men, The gospel of our salvation!!! All true believers have the keys to let others into the kingdom.
            Your shutting up the gates with all your rituals, neither do you go in yourselves.

          • susan

            Now, now Wilma. You did it again!

            These are Wilma’s words: “This statement of faith given to Peter by the Spirit of God is the foundation Jesus was speaking of. The church is not built on a mere man.”

            So Jesus DID NOT mean what He said? Wow!

            The words of Jesus:
            Matthew 16:18
            “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

            So was Jesus pointing to a rock that was near? Or was he referring to Peter? A solitary man? What was Jesus going to use to build His church? A rock? A man? And NO! Everyone does NOT have the keys to the kingdom!!! Who told you that nonsense? Your preacher?

          • Wilma Mills

            No ma’m, flesh and blood did not tell me these things. I thought you were finished with me because I’m in rebellion. Something keeps bringing you back. Doesn’t feel like love. Maybe Someone is calling out to you, saying, “Where art thou,Susan.” And telling you that your handmade fig leaf apron’ s not doing the job.

          • susan

            “No ma’m, flesh and blood did not tell me these things.”

            Okay okay. I get it. You don’t believe in what flesh and blood tells you. Which is why you deny Jesus and His words. Which is why you’ll no doubt deny Him the second time too. :(. Terribly sad but hardly surprising given your lack of inward humility.

          • You are in rebellion. Several people have tried to help you but you have this view you are the church. You are above all. I bet you think you overflow with miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit too. In the end you will have no excuse.

          • susan

            Wilma’s song….

          • Wilma Mills

            You and Craig have your fun, but you guys are so afraid of the Holy Ghost you’ll put anything in his place. The “fearful” are the first ones on the list to be cast into the lake of fire. A sprinkling of water, a piece of bread, sweet little mother Mary (she’s not as scary as God), confess to a priest rather than to God, pray to angels and saints, all in a show of “voluntary humility.” Anything but the true and living God, “whom to know is life eternal.”
            Jesus said, “No man can come to me except the Father draw him.” I pray he does just that for you, and you can’t rest until you find the truth. And I hope you do before it’s to late.

          • susan

            Here Wilma, i do appreciate that you try and dialogue with me as i try with you. lol. And we can both agree that it ain’t easy at times. 😉


            We got an email that said:

            Orthodox Study Bible pg. 1299 says that Jesus’ statement “You are peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church (Mat 16:18) was not of Peter himself, but of the faith of his confession. So isn’t Jesus is the Rock of the Church, and the Church “is built on the faithful confession of Christ?”

            The “little rock, big rock” theory

            We got an email that said:

            However Jesus stated “upon this rock I will build my church” in reference to Peter’s declaration that He (Jesus) was the Christ (Matthew 16:16).

            Let’s call this the “little rock, big rock” theory. It claims that Peter is a little rock and his declaration (Jesus is the Christ) is the foundation of the Church. The Greek text of the passage says “You are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petra) I will build my Church.”(Mat 16:18-20). In modern Greek, the name Peter Petros means “small stone” and Petra means “stone.” The theory proposes that Peter was only a little pebble and unimportant, while the big rock was the “declaration” of several verses earlier, that Jesus was the Christ.

            OK, I’m going to get a little “heady” here by talking about Aramaic, and ancient Greek. The Greek text is a translation of Jesus’ words, which were actually spoken in Aramaic. Aramaic only had one word for rock, kephas (which is why Peter is often called Cephas in the Bible). The word Kephas in Aramaic means “huge rock.” The Aramaic word for “little stone” is “evna,” and Peter was not called “Evna” or “Envas” or anything like that. In Aramaic, Jesus said “You are Peter (Kephas) and upon this rock (kephas) I will build my Church.” The metaphor worked well in Aramaic where nouns are neither feminine or masculine, but in Greek, the noun “rock” was feminine, and therefore unsuitable as a name for Peter. So the Aramaic word Kephas was translated to the masculine name Petros when it referred to Peter, and to the feminine noun petra when it referred to the rock. In ancient Koine Greek, petra and petros were total synonyms, unlike modern Attic Greek and unlike Ionic Greek which was about 400 year before Christ.

            I (Hugh) am a Canadian who speaks both English and French. In English, nouns are not masculine or feminine. However, in French all nouns have a “gender.” In French, the name Pierre (Peter) is masculine and the noun pierre (rock) is feminine. The metaphor works wonderfully in French as it did in Aramaic. “Tu es Pierre et sur cette pierre je bâtirai mon Eglise…”

            In Evangelical circles, the “little rock, big rock” theory is fairly recent. Nearly every Protestant commentary written in the last 50 years interprets Peter as the rock upon which the Church was built. (However, they didn’t believe that Peter had a successor, more about that here ). The scholarly Evangelical work, Carson’s “Expositors Bible Commentary” explains this well. It is in the section on Matthew 16. These Evangelical scholars looked closely at the Greek word for rock “Petra” and determined that it refers to Peter. The early Christians also referred to Peter as the Rock. Some Quotes are here.

            I recently spoke with a grammar specialist who is not Catholic. She explainedthat the adjective “this” grammatically must refer to the nearest preceding noun, which was Peter, not his declaration which occurs two verses earlier.

            upon this rock

            When Jesus says “whatever you bind” to Peter in Mat 16:18, the Greek text used for “you” is singular. In Mat 18:18 the Greek text, the word for “you” in “whatever you bind” is plural. Catholics think these two juxtaposed but similar phrases lay out the early structure of the Church with Peter as the Pope and the other apostles as priests.

            Didn’t some of the Church Fathers identify Peter’s confession as the Rock?

            Some of the Church fathers do speak of Christ or of Peter’s confession as “the Rock” of Matt 16:18, ALL of these SAME Church fathers ALSO speak of Peter himself as the Rock. In other words, the confession of Peter is in relation to Peter. It says something about him, and his faith. In this respect, it was not an either-or proposition for our ancient Christian forefathers, but a “both-and” proposition. Here are what the fathers (and some other scholars of the ancient Church) have to say.

            The fathers –including ALL the Greek fathers –say that Peter himself is the Rock of Matt 16. They make no distinction between Peter himself and Peter’s confession; for any father who speaks of it as Peter’s confession is ALSO on record calling Peter himself the Rock. Our Orthodox friend continues:

            What the Church has always believed is that Christ Himself is the only TRUE Rock of the Church. But, in Matt 16:18, Peter (because of his Divinely inspired confession) was made the VICARIOUS Rock of the Church –the focal point of Church unity and sound, orthodox doctrine in Christ’s own physical absence. A parallel dynamic can be seen in John 21:15-19,. where Christ makes Peter the primary shepherd of His flock, telling Him to “feed my lambs” and “tend (“rule” in the original Greek) my sheep.” Jesus could “feed” and “tend/ rule” His own sheep. Clearly, He can, since He is God and since He is always the Church’s TRUE Good Shepherd. But, Jesus commands Peter to do it IN A VICARIOUS SENSE –that is, to lead the Church and govern it with sound teaching and unity in Christ’s PHYSICAL absence. Thus, there is only one TRUE Shepherd (Jesus Christ), and one primary VICARIOUS Shepherd to unify the entire flock (St. Peter). Likewise, there is only one TRUE Rock (the Lord Himself) and one Christ-appointed VICARIOUS Rock –that is, St. Peter, who was commissioned with this ministry in Matt 16:18-19 and then reaffirmed in this same ministry in Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-19.

            The Keys

            If we compare Matt 16:18-19 with Isaiah 22:20-24, which describes the appointment of the Prime Minister of the old Hughic Kingdom of Israel –the minister who could act with the King’s own authority in the King’s physical absence –we can see quite clearly that Peter himself is being made the Rock in Matt 16:18. And, again, this is what all of the Church fathers consistently say (even when they also speak of other things as the Rock). Catholics believe that Jesus had a very specific purpose in saying that Peter was the Rock upon which he would build his Church. He was evoking Isaiah 22:22.

            Isaiah 22:15-24 Mat 16:18-19
            22:15 (Shebna) you have cut out a tomb here for yourself … in the rock? …I will thrust you from your office….22:20 On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, 21 and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of Hugh; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.
            …you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

            In the Isaiah passage, Shebna was the Chancellor (like a Prime Minister) under King Hezekiah. This Prime Minister had a special role above the cabinet. He got the keys to the kingdom. Shabna messed up and was unfaithful so God appointed Eliakim to Prime Minister and gave him the keys. In Mat 16:18, Peter got the keys just the way Eliakim got them in Isaiah 22:15-24.

            When Jesus says “whatever you bind” to Peter in Mat 16:18, the Greek text used for “you” is singular. In Mat 18:18 the Greek text, the word for “you” in “whatever you bind” is plural. Catholics think these two juxtaposed but similar phrases lay out the early structure of the Church with Peter as the Pope and the other apostles as priests.


            Jesus is the head of the Church and Peter was his Vicar on Earth.

            I heard a great Evangelical Christian song by the band Audio Adrenaline that says “I want to be your hands, I want to be your feet.” Most Evangelicals understand that Jesus needs people to do his work on earth. Catholics are saying that Jesus wants someone to lead his people on earth. This person is not taking Jesus’ place, he is simply guiding the Church the same way Peter did when he stood up in the upper room, and told the apostles that they must replace Judas, and do so with someone who had traveled with them from the time of John the Baptist (Acts 1:15). As the head of the apostles his duty was to guide the apostles and oversee a successful unanimous outcome. Catholics think Jesus is still doing that through Peter’s successor today.

            Jesus said “Upon this rock ‘I’ will build my Church.” Jesus is the head of the Church. Catholics believe the Pope is simply his “vicar” on earth, the one who He has appointed. The Pope could sing the song “I want to be your hands, I want to be your feet.” Jesus is the King which in Isaiah 22:22 is represented by King Hezekiah. Peter is the Vicar on Earth which in the Isaiah 22:22 passage is represented by Eliakim. The Pope’s role is kind of like that of a chairman of a board, or captain of a football team, with the other team players being the bishops. It has been like this since the dawn of Christianity. The owner and leader of the team is Jesus.

            Catholics don’t think the Church is “man-made.” They think it is God made. Jesus said “Upon this rock ‘I’ will build my Church.” (Mat 16:19) He did not say “you” will build my Church. Catholics think the Church was conceived at the Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles. (Acts 2:3) Catholics believe the Holy Spirit has been resting on the Catholic Church ever since. An historical timeline of the early Church is here

            If Jesus said he will build his Church on the man Peter wouldn’t that be like worshipping a man?

            It does not imply worship at all. Rather, it merely means that Peter would be the Prime Minister of Jesus’ Kingdom, the Church. Again, compare Matt 16:18-19 with Isaiah 22:20-24, which speaks of the Prime Minister of the old Hughic kingdom of Israel in the same exact terms. See also Isaiah 51:1-2, which speaks of Abraham as the Rock of the Israelite people. Is Isaiah saying that the Jews should “worship” Abraham? Of course not.

            > He will send out His Holy Spirit upon him, and Peter will be one of the main constructors of the Church of Christ (working the will of the Lord).

            Not “one of the main,” but THE main –the PRIME minister of the Church. It is Peter alone who possesses the ultimate authority to bind and loosen.

            The true Rock is Christ Himself (1 Cor 10:4), and the Church is built on the faithful confession of Christ.”

            Christ is the true Rock of the Church, but that is not what is being referred to in Matt 16:18. Rather, the reference is to Peter himself, who is the vicarious Rock of the Church. All the fathers clearly teach this.

            > [the Orthodox Study Bible says] “Sometimes the voice of the past is the clearest and most vivid guide for the minds and hearts of men of today, taking them out of the confused values of this life.

            I find it odd your source would say something like that while ignoring the consistent and universal teaching of the ancient Church fathers. Peter is the Rock of Matt 16:18, where he is made Christ’s vicar / vicarious Rock.

            On your comparison of Matthew 16:18-19 to Isaiah 22:20-24, the Orthodox Study Bible says: “Eliakim replaced Shebna before the attack on Jerusalem. Yet, by the end of his administration, Eliakim too would fall (v.25)”

            As did the kings of Israel who preceded Jesus Christ. Does this stop Christ from being the true King and Messiah, or does it stop His Church from being the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16; 1 Peter 2:9-10)? What Isaiah 22 shows is that an office existed –that is, the office of Prime Minister to the King of Israel; and Jesus, Who is the promised King and Messiah of Israel, makes Simon Peter His own Prime Minister in Matt 16:18-19.

            Even St. John Cassian, a BYZANTINE GREEK and a disciple of St. John Chrysostom, noticed this connection. For, he writes …

            “O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord; and also that you should open to us the gate of which you have received the Key (singular). Keep out all those who are undermining the heavenly House; turn away those who are trying to enter through false caverns and unlawful gates since it is certain that no one can enter in at the gate of the Kingdom except the one unto whom the Key (singular), placed by you in the churches, shall open it.” (John Cassian, Book III, Chap 12, Against the Nestorians on the Incarnation)

            As all scholars admit, St. John Cassian is taking his language directly from Isaiah 22, which speaks about the power to “open and shut” and which confers the authority of a “Key” (singular) over the “House” of Hugh (i.e., the Church).

            And two of your quotes I especially like: “Peter, with his whole soul, associates himself with the Lamb; and, by means of the change of his name, he is changed by the Lord into something more divine. Instead of Simon, being both called and having become a Rock, the great Peter did not by advancing little by little attain unto this grace, but at once he listened to his brother (Andrew), believed in the Lamb, and was through faith perfected, and, having cleaved to the Rock, became himself Peter.” (Gregory of Nyssa, T. i. Hom. xv. in C. Cantic).

            If you “like” this quote so much, then we need to see that St. Gregory of Nyssa (along with his brother St. Basil and his colleague St. Gregory Nazianzus –indeed, all the Greek fathers) taught and believed that Peter himself is the Rock of Matt 16:18?

            >”Christ is the Rock, ‘For they drank from that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ, ‘ and He did not refuse to bestow the favor of this title even upon His disciple, so that he too might be ‘Peter,’ in that he has from the Rock a solid consistancy of firm faith.” (Ambrose, Expos. in Luc.).

            Christ Himself is the true Rock of the Church, BUT …as St. Ambrose goes on to say …Christ ‘bestow[ed] the favor of this title upon His disciple, so that HE TOO might be Peter” –that is, the Rock of the Church in a VICARIOUS sense. And, this SAME St. Ambrose ALSO says …

            “Peter is called the Rock because, like an immovable rock, he sustains and joins the mass of the entire Christian edifice.” (Ambrose, Sermon 4). “[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . . ‘ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on His own authority, he gave the Kingdom, whom he called the Rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

            “It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of Hugh 40:30 [A.D. 389]).

            Again, the Tradition is clear. The Rock of Matt 16:18 is Peter. One cannot ignore this and also claim to be of the same Faith with the eastern fathers.

            The Eastern Church fathers call Peter the Rock

            Tatian the Syrian (170 A.D.): “Simon Kephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Rock, and on this Rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).
            Tertullian (220 A.D.):”Was anything hid from Peter, who was called the Rock, whereon the Church was built; who obtained the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the power of loosing and of binding in heaven and on earth?” (Tertullian, De Praescript Haeret).
            Tertullian thereafter writes to criticize Pope Callistus I by saying ….”I now inquire into your opinions, to see whence you usurp the right for the Church. Do you presume, because the Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church …[Matt 16-19]’ that the power of binding and loosing has thereby been handed over to you, that is, to every church akin to Peter? What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when He conferred this personally on Peter? ‘On you,’ He says, ‘I will build my Church; and I give to you the keys’….” (Tertullian, On Modesty 21:9-10)
            The Apocryphal Letter of St. Clement of Rome to St. James (C. 221 A.D.) “Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus Himself, with His truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221])
            St. Gregory Nazianzus write …. “See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church.” (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii). … and “Peter, the Chief of the disciples, but he was a Rock (Gregory Naz., T. ii.) …and … “[Peter], that unbroken Rock who held the keys.” (Gregory Naz., Sect. ii Poem Moral. tom. ii.)
            St. Gregory of Nyssa: “Peter, with his whole soul, associates himself with the Lamb; and, by means of the change of his name, he is changed by the Lord into something more divine. Instead of Simon, being both called and having become a Rock, the great Peter did not by advancing little by little attain unto this grace, but at once he listened to his brother (Andrew), believed in the Lamb, and was through faith perfected, and, having cleaved to the Rock, became himself Peter.” (Gregory of Nyssa, T. i. Hom. xv. in C. Cantic). …and …. “Peter …that most firm Rock, upon which the Lord build His Church.” (Gregory of Nyssa, Alt. Or. De. S. Steph.)
            St. Basil the Great:…. “The house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the foundations of which are on the holy mountains, for it is built upon the Apostles and prophets. One also of these mountains was Peter, upon which Rock the Lord promised to build His Church.” (Basil, T. i. Comment. in Esai. c. ii.). …and …. “The soul of blessed Peter was called a lofty Rock …” (Basil, Sermon 1 De Fide I.13).
            St. John Chrysostom: “…and when I name Peter, I name that unbroken Rock, that firm foundation, the Great Apostle, the First of the disciples …” (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom. iii. de Paednit). …and …. “Peter, the leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church.” (Chrysostom, In illud. hoc Scitote). and …. “Peter, … that Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the Faith, the Foundation of the Confession.” (Chrysostom, T. iii. Hom. de Dec. Mill. Talent)
            More here
            More on the Pope here

            Thanks to Mark Bonocore for the basis of this article.

            Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians
            become a reality, in Your way.

          • Bravo Susan. That was quite an exposition. You must have worked hard on this. Yer smart!:)
            I will confess I do have a bit of doubt about the Pope. Nothing I would call a deal breaker. At least not from my perspective, but the church may have an unfavourable view of me.
            I have no doubt Christ called Peter the rock on whom he would build his church and to whom he would give the keys of the kingdom. Couldn’t it be possible Peter used those keys to open salvation first to the Jews at Pentecost and then to the gentiles in preaching to Cornelius? In this way he used the keys to open the door of salvation to both groups.
            Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
            There are good arguments on both sides. At that assembly of Apostles and elders in Jerusalem it was James who finally delivered the solution to the problems under discussion. Likewise, St. Paul felt obligated to oppose Peter on an occasion when Peter withdrew from the gentile believers when the Jews showed up. And again, all the apostles received the Holy Spirit and given authority of binding and loosing. This is why the eastern orthodox church, equally orthodox and apostolic reject papal supremacy and infallibility. All the apostles are referred to as the foundation of the church equally along with Peter.
            Eph. 2: Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
            It seems some issues are not cut and dry. Even these great saints who met in Jerusalem had much discussion to try to discover the correct course to take.
            Having said all that I believe all the orthodox apostolic churches are the one church established by the Lord.
            Great post you did!!

          • susan

            Hey, all i did was copy and paste. Thanks to Mark Bonocore for the basis of this article. Every Pope is both attentively listened to and scrutinized by every Catholic. We are also aware of prophecies. There is much debate now, as I’m sure you’re aware of, regarding the great falling away and what that means. So like you, we continue to bear witness and wait until all is revealed.

          • Good job anyway. I’m well aware of the anticipation regarding the times we live in. I don’t think there is any chance we in North America are just going to skate, unscathed through what is coming. It doesn’t help when there are people like Steve Quayle, Tom Horn and Ted Broer and others constantly indicating sinister goings on within the Vatican and Pope. We will have to watch the current one carefully. But they will start by saying this is not to bash Catholics and then they spend the next 3 hours doing just that.
            I had a guy, a contractor ask me if I would help him install an ash floor for his customer. I don’t have much on the go out here in the country so I said sure. I spent 3 days listening to this guy. When we weren’t in a pissing contest regarding who had higher quality work skills he would spend the rest of the time bemoaning the Jeusits, the Pope, the Vatican and Catholics. I told him I didn’t agree with his view. Oh yes he insisted. The Jesuits created Islam! Never mind they didn’t even exist at the time. I had 3 days of this and was so happy when it ended. It means something when it is the apostolic who face the slander. They never accuse Protestants. This conspiracy guy doesn’t seem to realise a global elite don’t want to be in the lime light. They would position others to appear to be the cause of evil. Hence, Jesuits and Jews.

          • susan

            Sounds like a long three days. :(. I’ve read some of Horn’s books. And a lot of stuff in the Internet. It sounds reasonable if one doesn’t know any different. But if one wants to find the truth then they should investigate the church from the church’s viewpoint. Just as they listened to the viewpoint of Horn and the others. Just imagine if you or I were convicted and given a death penalty and sentenced to the lake of fire based on the testimony of a few witnesses without any chance to present our side. I mean, would they like it if they were in our shoes? To be accused and put to death by false witnesses. Jesus said…what they did unto me, they will do unto you. And we see it happening to the Catholic Church and our Pope. Just goes to prove which church is the true one. And
            slander is a horrific offense. Horn and the others are condemned unless they repent.

          • Bingo! Exactly what I was thinking. Many read something on the internet and spread it. But they could be hearing nothing but slander. Go to the source. I went to the Catholic encyclopedia yesterday and read a bit about the Friends of Jesus. There was really nothing sinister to be said. This is the approach I’ve taken in regard to the Catholic/Orthodox church. I was always of the opinion from what others said to me that their doctrine was of the devil. When I let the church speak for itself I discovered that just wasn’t so at all. And I have even had much of any difficulty with what is taught for the most part after listening to their explanations.
            And bingo again on the slander statement. I’ve warned numerous people of this lately who were parroting lies with no supporting proof. It is said to be one of seven things God hates.

          • susan

            lol. You explain it much better! The first thing for me was reading about the Eucharist. Everything lined up with the bible. So then I visited a Catholic Church…and saw for myself…then I began to wonder about confession. Was i supposed to just tell God alone? Well, i started reading scripture…and low and behold…the Catholics were correct again…so i did that. And what a difference!!! Lol. The hardest part was Mary…it took the longest…and it was worth every penny of time it took. How wonderful God is…to give us His mother too. No wonder she was chosen. 🙂 and praises to God that she said yes! It’s nice having you here Craig. I’m not good at explaining things to people. There are lots of lost sheep that need a Savior….and not just a part or piece of one. lol.

          • susan

            Here’s the link. It can probably answer almost any question you have 🙂


          • thanks.

          • Everything you have said here is so self condemning I would think you would fall on your face and beg the Lord for forgiveness, for you have belittled, mocked baptism, the communion (the Lord Himself) and the Lord’s own mother.
            Clearly it isn’t the Father who draws you to such disobedience.

          • Wilma Mills

            I’m not saying I’m perfect. I’m s saying I’m totally imperfect. That’s why I have to have a righteousness
            that is totally not from me. That’s why God provided the perfect righteousness I needed in Jesus “who is our righteousness.”
            Oh, the matchless GRACE and love of our God !!!!!

          • susan

            Wilma, i actually agree with you regarding grace and the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. I ALSO believe in the words of Jesus regarding the Confession and forgiveness of sins, the eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood (which He allows to be proven by miracles in times of His choosing) and the authority He gave to His disciples and the specific authority which He gave to His successor Peter which has been passed down through the ages. That’s the difference. I don’t make excuses about why something Jesus said should not be believed. It’s been there right under my nose. It took His grace to acknowledge receive it. Then it was up to me to accept it or reject it.

          • Wilma Mills

            I think east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet.

          • Wilma Mills

            Yes, there was no Bible in the beginning. That’s why God gave all those spiritual gifts to believers in the infant church like prophesy, knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues, etc. to speak to the church until the scripture was complete.
            1Cor 13:8…”…but whether there be prophesy, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away.” When the Bible was completed, 1Cor 12:13 “And now abideth Faith, hope, and charity, these three;”

          • Wilma, I don’t know how anyone can read the words of St. Paul In 2 Thess. 2 along with the Lord words about His coming AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24 and still find some way to justify a pre tribulation rapture teaching.
            1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            This is why I noted that we are in the ‘Age of Antichrist’, when the spirit of iniquity has been set loose after 1000 years of God’s Theandric Grace within the Church greatly binding Satan. 1917 was when the Third Rome fell, and so with the Roman Empire out of the way as the Fathers taught, Antichrist can come thereafter in the flesh. Bolshevik Revolution and ‘Sykes-Picot’, is one thing to me.

  • Michael Lochmoeller

    Excellent article Walid. But how can Antichrist stop all Christians taking communion?

    • Michael,

      Did Solomon’s wisdom travel throughout the whole earth?

      Look up “Shoebat” and “the whole earth” on google and you shall find the treasure you seek.

      • Michael Lochmoeller

        So may I ask why you don’t think the abomination of desolation refers to the Antichrist sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple declaring himself to be God? Doesn’t Apostle Paul tell us this in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 3-4?

        • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

          No, St. Paul says ”Temple of God”, which in the context of the New Testament Church, is a Christian Church, violated by Islam as was the ‘Dome of the Rock’. In fact, St. Sophronius the Patriarch of Jerusalem at the time of the Islamic Conquest in 632 AD, said as Caliph Omar entered the Church as he was converting it to a Mosque; “Lo, now do I see here the Abomination of Desolation, as spoken of by st. Daniel the prophet”.

          • Julie

            The Lord God is physically present on all altars throughout the Universal Church.

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            Yes, hence the ‘Abomination’ part; the Jewish Temple in st. Paul’s time had no worthy sacrifice after Christ’s Death, or Shekinah Glory, which is noted even in the Rabbinical Talmud . So the only act of Desecration that could be referred to would be that of a true Christian Church and it’s Altar

          • Julie

            Yes…I worship at the true altar of Christ and receive Him in the Eucharist….as a Roman Catholic.

            You have to separate men from the apostolic faith and the seat of Peter.

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            We just have a different frame of theological reference now, and leave it at that. Main thing is the Islamist threat; who else wishes to conquer the entire world these days?

          • Julie

            OK….but remember…the Orthodox accept the continued apostolic authority given them for the foundation of their churches, and the same for the Latin rite….SS Peter and Paul who died in Rome, and their martyrdom the primary mark of authority they died as co-founders.

          • Julie

            And…it is Gentle Jesus and His coming reign of His Sacred Heart over the hearts and souls mankind….

          • Michael Lochmoeller

            Then was that it or was that a shadow of a future abomination?

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            I think a foreshadowing of a future Abomination

        • Tom_mcewen

          No, I believe from the rejection of temple worship in the bablyon and Alexandria Talmud the period of animal sacrifice is over. God rejected all sacrifices from around the time of Christ’s death and resurrection until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. God doesn’t live there anymore to paraphrase a song. A new temple will be a building nothing more.

          • Trevor

            The worst part, Tom?

            Muslims have inherited the animal sacrifice from the Jews. So, they are continuing the animal sacrifice in satanic defiance of God.

          • Tom_mcewen

            I think they never left the mindset of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. There is no Ram in the bushes for them.

          • Trevor

            I see what you are saying; after all, St. John of Damascus identified them as the Saracens, meaning Sara sent them away destitute. Therefore, they have never gotten over it. That would explain their inherent hatred toward women and their cruel mistreatment of women.

          • Michael Lochmoeller

            I agree with that

          • Michael Lochmoeller

            But I thought they would still build it anyway

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Many ‘Christians’ have already stopped communion as most do not believe in the Real Presence – antichrist is not going to stop the eating of crackers and the drinking of grape juice.

      • Grandmere

        Snap, crackle, pop and boom!

      • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

        The Fathers called the table of Heretics, without the Real Presence, as the “Food of Demons”.

        • Julie

          The New Testament for 400 years was and is the Eucharistic Lord.

      • Tom_mcewen

        God, Julie take no prisoners. Definitely a here it is, deal with it.

      • Trevor


        However, the Antichrist will be targeting the apostolic church. It has already happened in Iraq and Syria. Soon, Egypt, home to the Coptic Church, will be next. I just hope the Vatican is ready.

        • Julie

          Yes it has been since the third secret of Fatima was revealed to the Pope in 1960.

          And going back in Church mystical prophecy….it has long waited this.

          The ancient Orthodox Fathers spoke of the terrible persecutions of the Antichrist…but also spoke of those running to be martyred for the Lord.

          The ECF’s also see most of the clergy slain…and these who do not sleep with women or lie will be resurrected to rule those who survive…this sounds extreme….but it is literally written in Revelations.

          • Trevor

            To be honest, I am beginning to suspect (and I may be horribly wrong) that the 3rd secret may have been badly misinterpreted. While some greatly fear the Russians, I think they should be deathly afraid of the Turks.

            After all, look at how much power and influence Erdogan has over Europe. Through his cunning, he was able to get Europe to cough up two billion euros for three years and for every refugee returned to Turkey, one Turk will go. In short, Erdogan got Europe barrel over the head.

            It’s no wonder after Christ destroys the Antichrist, assuming it is Erdogan, people will come and gaze upon the body of Antichrist and hiss, “Is this the one who made the nations tremble?” They will realize the sheer folly of being afraid of Erdogan.

            “The ECF’s also see most of the clergy slain…and these who do not sleep
            with women or lie will be resurrected to rule those who survive…this
            sounds extreme….but it is literally written in Revelations.”

            Drop the three words, “this sounds extreme,” and you will have nailed it. That’s why I have often argued for Christ’s physical presence to rule the world along with the martyred Christians, otherwise the integrity of Revelation is undermined.

          • Julie

            The Vatican and — Pope Benedict…Emeritus….said that was the third secret.

            You can go to the Vatican website and look it up.

            it was done. Russia was preparing for WWIII. I was part of that movement to pray and was reading what was going on…then they had one dictator after another bite the dust, a huge blast of Soviet arsenal in the North of the country…the falling of Andropov where maneuvers were beginning on the Polish border…and then John Paul II consecrated Russia…it was so named in the letters sent to all the bishops in the world….but he could not say ‘Russia’ by name…and you can see the reaction by some Orthodox here regarding Our Lady of Fatima…I wonder if they are former Protestants actually….he did not want to offend the Russian Orthodox who so many had been liquidated.

            The Seattle Times put a small blurb in…that the Soviet Union had 30 million set up for mass liquidation in America — the intelligencia….the wealthy….and the Orthodox Catholics….they didn’t mention any Protestants.

            I was a member of the MMP, Fr Gobi, and one of the locutions stated her victory was coming…1988…or so…Gorbachev….I was a young mother in those times.

            Yes, the secret has been revealed…and many many Catholics will die this time….before it was the Orthodox now it is our turn.

          • Trevor

            Would you send me a link, please?

          • Julie

            That is nearly impossible. I looked last night…it was around 1987…just 2 little paragraphs…in the days I used to read the newspaper or glean it cover to cover…except the sports.

            You will have to take my word for it, Trevor….and no mention of the protestants.

            The communists entered American and Canadian seminaries…to essentially….make our faith protestant….congregationalist like where authority comes from the bottom in group consensus.

            It is the bishop who is the holder of orthodoxy over the parish..He has the same authority of the pope over our faith. It is when the pope calls a synod or new council…and all decisions…canon law….papal infallibility…all must consent to whatever the pope proposes…or it is not binding.

            So many bishops have waffled on orthodoxy. So when an unruly, dissenting parishioner opposes a pastor…so many don’t uphold orthodoxy because if the parishioner goes to the bishop to report on a priest…a priest’s worst nightmare….the bishop would stand by the parishioner to be more compassionate….which is reflective more of the papacy as good pastor rather than the orthodoxy of the local bishop….and then when compassion is voiced…give it time…then another bishop or two will come forward to disagree some point with the pope, and then there will come about some kind of pastoral practice in some manner for balance. Studied that at local seminary on ‘roots of the papacy’…two years ago.

            What you saw was many poor bishops…a third of the stars swept away by the tail of the dragon. Pope Benedict was removing a lukewarm bishop or priest every month…..

          • Doc

            My worry is that the third secret has not actually been revealed, but many “false” third secrets have been revealed.

          • Kelly ann

            You suspect right Trevor. regarding the message. The claims they are making goes against Our Lady .
            And the good pope Emeritus admitted that the secret wasn’t fully disclosed, but the neocons at the Vatican beg to differ, the house is divided on this one dear.

            Here’s to links both with a different view of Fatima, both have been in a fight for years. Through them you will find the links you will need, to see both sides.



            Regarding Turkey , if Turkey released one NATO nuke , Russia could easily turn Turkey into a crater on the planet, so I don’t see Turkey being the world threat. Keep in mind Russia don’t need resources from Turkey, it’s the opposite.

            And Our Lady herself said that God will use Russia with or without the consecration. I’d prefer with, a much better turnout for all of us. Regarding the message of Our Lady minus the one part the vision of the pope, see Fr Hesse on YouTube lecture on Fatima. He is passed now Bod rest his soul, but listen to what he says.very interesting. I believe Trad Cat Knight posted it , Theodore goes over there for interviews as you may well know. Ask your wife to help you because I know you can’t hear.

            The link via Turkey(Islam) via Fatima , well it’s pretty obvious, pitching her feet in Fatima, she is making a statement, Our Lady was given the grace by God to destroy all heresies, and judging by what we know where her lovely feet pitched , she will do to the Middle East what she did in Mexico. To us Our Lady is the 12 star general, she commands legions of angels, with St Micheal as Her protector.

            I know this isn’t recorded in sacred scriptures. But by now you know we Cats don’t get all of our teachings from the bible.

  • Strange. I post comments about him despite all this. He attacked Theodore on Twitter when Theodore debated Michael Brown. He complemented Muslim Al-Rumi saying he was “Christian” when Rumi was an Antichrist. The problem with Joel is he took what we had and does not create or build anything new. He is a copy cat with much lack on history. Way over rated by some who follow him. I regretted working with him. He hates Catholicism.

    • Tom_mcewen

      What is the basis of his hate for Catholicism, is it myth and slander or some facts. Holy comes from the meaning of being whole, complete.

      • Julie

        These Protestants who are ‘children’ of Luther have such a hatred for the papacy.

        Luther essentially destroyed the truth that Christ established One Church, holy, universal, apostolic.

        The New Testament for the first 400 years essentially, referred to the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

        It is Christ present in the Eucharist, Whose understanding is given us through the apostolic witnesses to Christ that has supported us for 2,000 years.

        It is Christ Himself Who is the Life Blood of the Church, our holiness, our unity is supernatural because it is of Christ Himself — Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity…and we become like Him when we extend His caring life to those around us.

        • Tom_mcewen

          I just read a statement by the continuing church of God that according to the apostolic writing of St Polycarp they are the rightful church, their founding was in 1933 AD as the radio church of God, upgrading in the with Armstrong into the worldwide church of God, splintering to the continuing church of God founded in 2012 AD as the original remnant church of the apostles. Pretty impressive. There declaration that the Catholic and Orthodox are both false. I have to be open to any Church that even knows one apostolic father, amazing. St John must be rolling in the aisle.

        • Tom_mcewen

          Yes, in his writing to the church he alway swore true faith to the apostolic Church and to the chair of Peter. When the chair of Peter rejected Luther’s theology for the church’s his pride like Judas turned him against Christ’s Church. All sins flow from pride. In his case it was the pride of intellect. Galileo was a better man, he recovered from pride.

        • Kkdgrace

          I was raised a Lutheren- in a very, very conservative denomination. I heard nothing much about Luther and nothing about hatred towards Catholics. But I suppose different factions are influenced by the past, whether congregants are aware of that influence or not. With what is going on in Germany, I am almost ashamed to admit my very heavy German heritage. Our family was one of the first wave of immigrants that settled the Republic of Texas…and I guess for most Germans at that time, Lutheranism was a given- at least it remained a tradition throughout the the many years, up until my youth. I never really question WHY we were Lutherans- it was just a big part of our lives. I left the church during college and have been on a decades long search for worship and belief that is both real and meaningful- especially in this day of “feel good” and me-centered churches…both mega churches and the smaller nondenominational churches. It has taken study and reading- along with reflection and much prayer- to open my eyes to the history of Christianity most Protestants never hear about, much less attempt to investigate. So grateful I have done so. What an eye- opener! Needless to say, I have done a 180 when it comes to Evangelical Christianity. I believe there are those who are sincere in their love for and their seeking after God….they are simply living a life of faith without knowing the fullness of Truth. How I wish I had “discovered” all this in my younger years!!

          • Julie

            Thank you for your kind reply. I was a little afraid to read it as I get hit alot of times by those who don’t realize how insulated and misguided they had been.

            History…and especially salvation history is where we should keep our focus…that people in the past had the same trials as today, and that we are all common humanity seeking to be reunited with Our Lord some day.

            We should pray for the perseverance of the just and the conversion of sinners and keep it at that.

            One of my best friends is now a member of the Missouri Synod and another old high school classmate is pastor of a Lutheran church in Seattle and we are one in the Lord, and really, because we knew each other when we were young, don’t get into denominational discussions.

            But the one that does is ‘why can’t priests marry’.

            Well, if you enter into the Church and are initiated, you receive the Eucharist, and are now living in His Eternal being so time doesn’t matter.

            And a good soul always has regrets about her own past actions…we all have that, irregardless if we have been in the Church our entire lives, such as myself.

            God bless you!!!

          • Kkdgrace

            You make me chuckle- you have SUCH a gentle soul and I love reading your posts- that quiet but firm faith shines throughout them all. But you do get riled up on occassion and that’s where we see your fierceness in the defense of the Faith. I’m sorry you get upset- bet it’s harder to argue when you are normally a gentle and quietly devoted Christian. In any case, you do well in refuting errors and heresy. Love you, my sister in Christ. Carry on!

          • Grandmere

            I agree, Kid. That’s my nickname for you. Julie never backs down. She knows what she is talking about because she is living it.

          • Julie

            Thank you, Kkdgrace.

            But it does no good because I think these also have a spiritual, mental illness that aligns with the Deep South racism.

            My mother’s side goes way back to colonial times; I could join DAR….but have seen in some …who are now since gone in passing….have racist ideas that are of mental illness.

            People who are so wrong and misguided do so by their own will and oppose the truth to the point they are not mentally well.

            So the solution to the problem when they cannot substantiate or study is to simply use the new Disqus tab to block them. All one can do is pray for them for their conversion.

    • Paul

      “…does not create or build anything new” — Well; I came across some people on the internet that think that the first beast that came from the sea and the second beast that came from the earth are Leviathan and Behemoth respectively. There wasn’t a lot of additional information that one couldn’t deduce from other scriptures even if this were to be so; except to confirm them such as the beast that looked like a lamb only appeared to be so from a distance but was actually monsters when one sees it closely.

    • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

      Yes he does, and some of his followers are even more virulently against the Apostolic Faith of the Fathers.

  • Tom_mcewen

    Excellent, I hope some will incorporate some gray into their black and white view of the bible, the bible is a reflection what was, is and is to be, the world IS and should be used as part of understanding the bible. The bible is not an encyclopedia which is complete and whole no more then everything and every word that Christ uttered is recorded, the NT is a snapshot not the movie.Mark is a snapshot of Peter’s experience, cut short by execution. Walid writes with his mind and the experience taught by life and I think Martin Luther wrote with his mind only.

    • CadaveraVeroInnumero

      Second Temple Judaism (which, granted, is a large subject) is the *grey* behind the recorded sayings of Jesus.

  • filomena seiffert

    Wow! what a powerful interpretation. Just prove what I have been saying; There is not a single protestant prophecy that ever comes true. Luther inspired by lucifer. Protestants united with muslim for both belong to the same kingdom of darkness and will not fight against itself. The core of the protestant doctrine is not Jesus but slander the Catholic Church.

  • susan

    Thank you! :D.

  • nol gren

    I need to get myself more vessels because keeps on pouring out more and more oil. Oh Lord God, bless this ministry abundantly!

  • That before and after picture of Mecca put a big smile on my face. I enjoyed it so much that I saved it. Does this mean that deep in my soul I harbour micro aggression? Should I care? It is for a good cause.
    I wasn’t aware of this John Adams quote but it does appear he is telling the truth. Listening to modern commentators generally the same garbage is spewed out: Every evil committed on earth involves the Mossad and the Jesuits. According to them the Vatican is hiding all sorts of information about history. Some of these Jesuits are probably reptilian and have child sacrifices in the basement. It is utter madness and the average person, so prejudiced by these lies is preconditioned to reject the Lord’s church which has been operating from the beginning.

    • Grandmere

      May God bless you on your journey, Craig.

      • Thank you Grandmere. We are all on the same journey but you are up near the front of the pack and I’m a straggler near the end of the line. I hope I don’t run out of time to catch up.

        • susan

          You’ll make it Craig! :))

    • Tom_mcewen

      Don’t worry so much God expanded the universe billions and billions of times between 1×10-43 and 10-36 overcoming the limits on the speed of light by not violating it but by increasing space between protomatter other wise 80% of the universe would be missing. a very nifty trick. He got your back.

  • really? Ancient Grecian Empire and Asia Minor are the same. We are talking Bible here not just modern Greece.

    And while you try to find a point what about the rest of the points?

    • Julie

      Alas…the fruit of sola scriptura…it can only travel to the end of the universe of one solitary mind in the immediate present.

      It was an American admiral who did not allow his sailors to help as the ancient Church of Smyrna was decimated by the Turks in 1922. When I found this out, I didn’t forget.

      We look to salvation history, beginning with the witness of faith to the Jews of the Old Testament at the First Reading at Mass, to the praise of the Lord during the Psalms…and then receive the same instruction as the earliest Christians in the 2nd reading of the Letters…We re-live their lives in the Lord. We unite to all people of faith in the One True God, past present and those to come promised by Our Lord.

  • If you see the intent clearly you will find it was written not to divide but to unite. This can NEVER be done without exposing the errors Peter.

  • Kamau41

    “The end times, to Luther, was interpreted as having practical implications for a Christian’s life and actions where eschatology provided the basis, not just for political issues, but for pastoral advice in his time which still exist today for much of western Christianity.” Another excellent, well written and bombshell very timely piece. Thank you for taking the time researching and putting this all together brother Walid. No doubt, this is the most crucial commentary written regarding Bible Prophecy and how history is and most certainly will repeat itself.

  • Gloria

    Luther seems to fit the description of false prophets that Jesus spoke about. It’s too bad he is so highly thought of by many Protostants today.

    Even so, many times in the Bible we see God use people like the Ottomans as he did the Babylonians in Ezekiel in response to their wickedness. I can see why Luther said what he did about them being used as punishment.

    I do not believe we should just allow Muslims to walk all over us and take over, but I do see how this evil is allowed to grow because as a whole the west is rejecting God. I think our leaders are blind because we want to live self centered lives and not Godly ones. Even Jesus in Revelations warns the church’s he will remove them for their disobedience and lack of love for him.

    In order to have his protection we need to turn back to him on his terms. We do need to fight back as we can, but the war is spiritual and also requires prayer, fasting and living in his will.

    The false teachings of Luther and Darby have hurt us tremendously in the west. We are not equipped to deal with this crisis when viewed through the lens of these false teachers. The fact that your eyes are open brother Walid and you are able to share the truth gives me hope for the western church though, God remains faithful.

    • Julie

      That is the sadness of it all….the great falling away, the destruction of the family, all for the narcisstic indivdual.

      In fact, Luther was a highly scrupulous, unbalanced man. His theologian who had jurisdiction over him refused to discuss with him Luther’s ideas. So it makes one wonder why this laspe?

      Luther had extremely disciplining parents.

      He could not experience God’s love in the Catholic Church, even though there were many who endured the same problems with the clergy..but kept their faith and experienced Christ’s love.

      The Church irregardless had many saints who lived in the hundreds of years prior to Luther. all one has to do is listen to the gospel with a pure heart and adore Our Lord in the Eucharist and be nourished by the sacramental life.

      Doing so does not depend on men or one’s interpretation but living out the way the Lord wants you to.

      • Gloria

        Very true about the falling away “the destruction of the family, all for the narcisstic indivdual.”

  • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

    He lived and escaped, one of his doubles was shot.

  • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

    The ”Plain of Shinar”, if I may answer, is ancient Sumer, in what is now southern Iraq close to the Persian Gulf, which actually extended further between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers than they do today.

    • Patrick Creeden

      Thanks Walid.

      • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

        Not Walid, just thought I would help if I could:-). God bless

  • Tom_mcewen

    Strange I thought was talking about English not Japanese

  • Wilma Mills

    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions (chambers): if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for, I will come again, and recieve you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also….John 14: 1-3
    Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…Isa.26:20-21

    • Wilma Mills

      After the rapture, God will send strong delusion that they should ALL be damned who loved not the knowledge of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The truth is salvation is totally by Grace through FAITH. There is a pleasure in thinking that you have something to add to what Christ has done. You best forget about it. This delusion along with the signs and lying wonders performed by the false prophet will send you to HELL where you’ll be tormented forever and ever; you will have no rest day or night.

      • susan

        What is FAITH Wilma? Is it believing that Jesus is the Son of God? Why are you ignoring His teachings? Do you eat His flesh and drink His blood as He commanded? Or are you of the seventy who complained that this teaching was too hard to accept and walked away?

        • Trevor

          Arguing with a pre-tribber is a waste of time.

          • Tom_mcewen

            Why I saw that the rapture took place two days ago on the 29th of July 2016. Maybe some born again missed it.

          • Trevor

            Oh crap…

          • susan

            Will you please let Wilma know? She’s already upset with me because i follow ALL of Jesus’ words and not just the verses she’s decided are more important. She’s gonna be an emotional wreck now that she’s stuck here with us to face the Great tribulation.

          • Trevor

            I gave my respond. I expect her to attack my position for stating that the Church Fathers from 70 AD to today have never taught a secret rapture theory.

            The Middle Eastern Christians are proof positive that the pre-tribulation rapture is bunk already. Too many are blinded by emotion-based preaching instead of sound doctrine handed down from the first generation apostleship.

            It’s the real tragedy.

          • susan

            “Emotion based preaching” with incorrect interpretations of scripture, no sound doctrine or authority from God…it is the devil’s brew…and too many Christians are contentedly drinking it…waiting for God to beam them up. 🙁

          • Tom_mcewen

            It sad to say, but to the born again crowd, the middle eastern apostolic believers are not Christians and are been taught a false gospel and are not saved. So much for history.

          • Grandmere

            And I’m an emotional wreck being stuck with her.

          • susan

            lol. Would you like a little wine for your stomach ailments? 😉

          • Grandmere

            I’m on the coffee right now but a night cap would be lovely, sis.

        • Wilma Mills

          Are you born again of the Spirit, Susan? “You must be born again.”

          • susan

            Jesus said “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you”.

            Do you have life in you?

          • Tom_mcewen

            Where is that in the bible? John 3:5 says Amen amen unless a man is born again of water….Strange bible believers.

          • susan

            They follow Preacher made up explanations.

          • Tom_mcewen

            Oh, No not man made traditions!!!

          • Julie

            We are reborn at Baptism.

          • Wilma Mills

            Better make sure.

          • Julie

            Two thousand years….going back to the River Jordan, lady.

            Best you go somewhere else with your errors…so much of it in the USA that has lost its roots.

          • Wilma Mills

            The Spirit of God takes the word of God and regenerates believers in that word. 1st Pt.1:23~ “…being born again, not of corruptable seed, but of incorruptable, by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever.” Babies can’t hear and believe the word.

          • Julie

            St Peter, the primary apostle, would totally disagree with you along with the apostles. If you read Scripture, you will find out he and the apostles baptized entire households.

            You are denying a human being the grace of life in Christ. The Lord said not to keep the little children away from Him either.

            To have true faith in Christ requires certitude of faith, that one truly believes in Christ.

            I don’t believe in personal opinions because it is not based on certitude but personal inclinations…so much for sola scriptura which is not scriptural.

            I don’t want my child denied the reality of Christ. Mine were baptized early on to receive the grace of Christ.

            You are taking one line out of Scripture and divorcing it from the rest.

          • Wilma Mills

            St. Peter wrote my quote.

          • Wilma Mills

            Yes, entire households believed the word when the apostles preached it to them. It doesn’t mean they baptized babies. True baptism is an outward sign of an inner work. When a person is immersed, it’s a picture identifying the believer with the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus. “Because I live ye shall live also.”
            Isa.26:19~”Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they rise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: For thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”
            I have a question, on resurrection day, will everyone’s purgatory time suddenly be over at the very same time?

          • Wilma Mills

            I just thought of something. You believe babies will go to HELL
            if not baptized. Paul said, “I was alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and I died.” “Now where there is no law sin is not imputed.”
            Law is anything we know that is good or evil. Babies don’t know good from evil and therefore are alive to God. They are in a state of innocence until a time comes when they know good from evil. Whatever law a human is given, we break it one way or another, then spiritual death passes upon us. The wonderful news is Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven. Little children are the easiest to recieve the Savior because their hearts are not hardened and they haven’t been jaded by life’s experiences yet.

        • Wilma Mills

          The devils believe he’s the Son of God and tremble. Faith is believing God. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” You don’t believe this whole statement. You don’t believe that believing on Him SAVES you!!!

          • susan

            Wilma, I believe every word Jesus said. Not just a verse here or there. I confess my sins to His Priests. I eat His flesh and blood as He instructed. Why do you ignore these verses? You only do part because your splintered church only does part. Do you want ALL of Jesus? Or just a few verses? The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

          • Wilma Mills

            I got all of Jesus when I believed him. His Spirit came into me and rebirthed the spirit I came into this world with. I knew every word in His Bible was true. For the first time in my life I knew what real love was. I experienced JOY unspeakable and full of glory. I knew Jesus was God. Something I did not know before. I fell madly in love with this wonderful Saviour. This happened 43 yrs ago. Since then I’ve gobbled up His word, studied it, grown by it, it’s transformed me and will continue to do so until I see Him face to face. He’ll never leave me or cast me out, He promised, and He cannot lie. I’m eternal now like Him. “We are COMPLETE in Him.” Oh, I wish all of you would call on Him in simple faith for salvation. He’ll meet you there and you’ll never regret it.

          • susan

            “Since then I gobbled up His word..”

            There are a few more things you must gobble…

          • Wilma Mills

            Compared to my experience, which is right out of the scripture (dirty word here) YOU are missing quite a lot. “You MUST be BORN AGAIN.” Susan, there’s too much at stake here!!! Please, ” Let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar.” Don’t believe Mommy, Daddy, Pastor, Preist, friend, or brother over God’s word. “I have esteemed My word above My name.”

          • susan

            What did you “do” or “say” in order to be “born again”? What did Jesus say we must “do” or “say” in order to be “born again”? How is it possible to know whether one has been “born again”?

            Thank you Wilma. 🙂

          • Wilma Mills

            There is no set thing to say, the doing is placing the whole weight of your salvation on Jesus by faith. “It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” “And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, but how shall they call on Him in whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” “At that day,ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” “By this we know that we have passed from death unto life is that we love the brethren.”

          • Wilma Mills

            Go ahead, replace the Son of God with a wafer, why don’t you drink the wine? The blood gives remission of sin. This reminds me of a verse from Proverbs, “…by the ways of a whorish woman, a man is brought to a piece of bread.”

          • susan

            Wilma, you have yet to address any of Jesus’ words. And now you’re bringing up whorish woman? Please explain Jesus’ words. Your insults give me something to forgive which i in turn freely relinquish to the Mother of God for the suffering souls in purgatory.

            These are the verses you are still ignoring.
            The Eucharist: The Lord’s Supper

            Roman Catholic Christians share with most Christians the faith that Jesus Christ, on the night he was betrayed, ate a final or last supper with his Apostles. This final meal was also the celebration of the Jewish Passover or Feast of the Unleavened Bread which commemorated the passing over of the Jews from the death in slavery to the Egyptians to life in the Promised Land.

            Christians differ in the meaning this Last Supper has to them and the Church today. Catholic Christians together with other historical Christian Churches (e.g., Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans and some Episcopalians, etc.) believe the literal words of Jesus – that the bread and wine are truly his body and blood. Other later Christian Churches profess a mere symbolic meaning to the words of Jesus.

            The faith of the Catholic Church is based on both a fundamental principle of hermeneutics and the constant faith of the Church from Apostolic times.

            The Catholic Church teaches that the first principle of hermeneutics–the science of the translation and interpretation of the Bible–is the literal meaning of the text.

            Spiritus Paraclitus Benedict XV, September 15, 1920
            As Jerome insisted, all biblical interpretation rests upon the literal sense …
            Divino Afflante Spiritus, Pius XII, September 30, 1943
            … discern and define that sense of the biblical words which is called literal … so that the mind of the author may be made clear. … the exegete must be principally concerned with the literal sense of the Scriptures.
            The definition of the literal sense:
            The sense which the human author directly intended and which his words convey.
            The first writer of the New Testament was the apostle Paul. His Letter to the Corinthians was written as early as 56 AD, earlier than the first Gospel, Mark’s, written about 64 AD. Paul was also not an eyewitness to what he wrote but testifies to his source.

            1 Cor 11:23-29
            For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
            The next New Testament text in chronological order would have been Mark’s Gospel. Written about 64 AD, in Rome, Mark, not an eyewitness, probably heard the account of the Last Supper he recorded from the Apostle Peter.

            Mk 14:22-24
            While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.”
            The third account of the Last Supper could be Matthew’s. Matthew, the tax collector Levi, was an eyewitness to the meal. He was one of the twelve Apostles. Matthew probably wrote his Gospel in the 70’s.

            Mt 26:26-28
            While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
            Luke’s account of the Last Supper, written from the standpoint of a Gentile convert and a non-eyewitness, probably heard the details of the Last Supper from Paul. Luke was a traveling companion of Paul. Luke also wrote in the 70’s.

            Lk 22:15-20
            He (Jesus) said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.”
            The beloved disciple, John, the last of the New Testament writers, wrote his Gospel in the 90’s. John was an eyewitness to the events of the Last Supper (Jn 6:30-68).

            Jn 6:53-56
            Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”
            Hence Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

            The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith–the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation–appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John’s gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

            Jn 6:51
            I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
            Jn 6:53
            Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
            Jn 6:54
            Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
            Jn 6:55
            For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
            Jn 6:56
            Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
            The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying–cannibalism and the drinking of blood–both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

            Jn 6:60,66
            Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” … As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
            Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus’ words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn’t. They had clearly understood his meaning–Jesus’ flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

            Non believers often respond that even at the Last Supper, the apostles did not sense that they had flesh in their hands and blood in their cup. But Jesus is God. The creative literalness of the words: “This is my body; this is my blood” must be believed. God cannot lie. And God can turn bread into flesh and wine into blood without the appearances of bread and wine changing.

            Medieval philosophers and theologians called this expression of Divine Truth and Creative Power “transubstantiation”. Yes, God can change the substance of any created matter while the appearances remain unchanged. And this demands faith.

            Paul confirms elsewhere in his letters the reality of the real presence.

            1 Cor 10:16
            The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
            The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.

            Irenaeus (Asia Minor, 140 – 202), Tertullian (Rome, 160 – 220), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 – 258) are just a few of the earliest who attest to the objective reality of the words of Christ.

            In the Church in Alexandria, Athanasius (293 – 373) and Cyril (376 – 444) equally attest to the literal meaning of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.

            In the Church in Palestine, Cyril (Jerusalem, 315 – 387) and Epiphanius (Salamis, 367 – 403) also affirm in their teaching the same reality.

            Unanimity is found across the universal church until the 11th century. Berengar (Tours, France, 1000 – 1088) was one of the first to deny the real presence by arguing that Christ is not physically present, but only symbolically.

            The Council of Rome (a local council), 1079, taught against Berengar that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.

            By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority (see Chapter 5) had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.

            The Council of Trent (1545 – 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words “Do this in remembrance of me.”

            The Mass: Synagogue Service and Last Supper

            Roman Catholic Christians celebrate the Eucharist in the liturgical act called the Mass. The word Mass comes from the Latin missa (“sent”). It was taken from the formula for dismissing the congregation: Ite missa est (“Go, the Eucharist has been sent forth”) referring to the ancient custom of sending consecrated bread from the bishop’s Mass to the sick and to the other churches.

            The Mass contains two parts: the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is a copy of the Jewish synagogue service of the first century: readings from Scripture followed by responses from the congregation often from the Book of Psalms. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is a reenactment of the Last Supper. A celebrant does what Christ did: take bread and wine and say the same words Christ said and then share the now consecrated bread and wine with the congregation.

            Roman Catholics believe that the bread and wine become the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and remain such until the elements are entirely consumed. The Body and Blood not consumed at one Eucharist are reserved for the next celebration of the Eucharist and venerated as the Body and Blood of Jesus.

            Remembrance: One Sacrifice–Calvary–Continued

            Roman Catholic Christians take the word of God seriously and seek to remember Christ in the Last Supper “as often as” possible. And in doing this proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

            1 Cor 11:24-26
            “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
            Lk 22:19
            “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
            Catholic Christians also believe that there is only one sacrifice, Jesus’, but following the command “as often as” to proclaim the death of the Lord, the sacrifice of Christ is made physically present to every Christian in all places in every age. The Eucharist makes the atemporal aphysical actions of Christ’s redeeming action truly present to us always and everywhere. This is incarnational.

            Following the word of God, Catholics also know that Christ is not and cannot be resacrificed. This has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

            Heb 10:12
            But this one (Jesus) offered one sacrifice for sins …
            Heb 7:27
            He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did that once for all when he offered himself.
            Heb 9:25-28
            Not that he might offer himself repeatedly … But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. … Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many …
            The constant faith of the Church from the Apostolic Fathers attests to the fact that the Mass was the one Sacrifice of Calvary made present to the faithful.

            Cyprian (Carthage, 200-258), Letters, No 63:9 (To Caecilian)
            In which portion we find that the cup which the Lord offered was mixed, and that that was wine He called His Blood. Whence it appears that the blood of Christ is not offered if there be no wine in the cup, nor the Lord’s sacrifice celebrated with a legitimate consecration unless our oblation and sacrifice respond to His passion.
            The 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this statement explicitly.

            Catechism Section 1085
            In the Liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present. During his earthly life Jesus announced his Paschal mystery by his teachings and anticipated it by his actions. When his Hour comes, he lives out the unique event of history which does not pass away: Jesus dies, is buried, rises from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father “once for all.” His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. The Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is — all that he did and suffered for all people — participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. The event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.
            Catechism Section 1104
            Christian liturgy not only recalls the events that saved us but actualizes them, makes them present. The Paschal mystery of Christ is celebrated, not repeated. It is the celebrations that are repeated, and in each celebration there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that makes the unique mystery present.

            The Roman Catholic Church through history approached her faith life with the clarification of language. That is, she translated the essentials of revealed faith into the vocabulary of living language.

            To the revealed Word that there is “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” the Church labeled the belief “Trinity.”
            To the revealed Word that the “Son of God became man” the Church labeled the belief “Incarnation.”
            To the revealed Word that the “blood of Christ spilled on Calvary saved us” the Church labeled the belief “Redemption.”
            To the revealed Word that “my flesh is true food, my blood is true drink” the Church labeled the belief “Transubstantiation.”
            Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.

            Jesus (omnipotent God) said: “This is my body; this is my blood.” And again Jesus said: “I am the bread of life;” “My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;” “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood …;” etc.

            Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.

            From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.

            Similar to all of God’s Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.

            Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.

            Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts–sight, taste, smell, touch–do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! “Transubstantiation” merely labels it.

            In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.
            Do you believe Jesus’ words?

          • Wilma Mills

            I worked in a nursing home for years. I saw people who could not eat, except through a stomach tube. They still had their right mind. They can still eat his flesh and drink his blood by using his body and blood to give them spiritual (eternal) life, BY FAITH. EPH 2:8-9~ “For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH, and that not of yourselves. It is the GIFT of God and not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.”
            Susan, you can tell Jesus,”I confess to your priests,” I eat what I think is your body, the priest drinks what I’ve been told is your blood.” and “I do many other wonderful works in your name.” “I hope that makes me acceptable.”
            I say to him, Jesus, “Just as I am, without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me, and that thou biddest me, come to thee, O Lamb of God I come. I come………”Come unto me, all ye who labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” This is salvation.
            “By your words you are justified, and by your words you are condemned.”

          • susan

            Did Jesus say it or not? Simple question.

          • Wilma Mills

            Yes, he said it, but he DID NOT say a priest or anyone else can change bread and wine into his body and blood. And if you believe that, you’re very sadly and tragically deceived.

          • susan

            Did He say it more than one time? What do you say He meant?

          • Wilma Mills

            I think I’ve said this several times, but here goes. He meant that his sacrificial death is our only means of eternal life. We have to have food to live physically. His body is the food that gives eternal life, but the Spirit is fed differently than the physical body. Eatting something through the mouth does nothing for my spirit. Faith in the finished redemptive work on the cross gives life to my spirit. Jesus told the woman at the well, “He that drinks of this water shall thrust again, but he that drinks
            of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but it shall be in him a well of living water springing up into everlasting life. And out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”
            He didn’t mean we’ll have a literal arteassian well spouting up out of our inward parts.He meant once we recieve life from Him, that’s it. We don’t have to do it again. That life just bubbles up and grows and never runs dry. When His life is in you, it brings forth a life of good works. We’re definitely not perfect because we’re still in the flesh, but our lot on this earth is fighting and overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil. Sometimes we fail, but we still have that spiritual life that causes us to get back up and on with the fight.

          • susan

            Was Jesus a Priest? Did Jesus have designated authority from His Father? Did He give that authority to everyone? Or just to some?

          • Wilma Mills

            Jesus is our high priest and he entered in to the Heavenly Holy of Holies, having died once for all, and having “obtained eternal salvation for us.”
            He said, “All power is given unto me in Heaven and earth,” and he is seated at the right hand of God, waiting till his enemies be made his foot stool. He did not make Peter a pope. I don’t think there’s evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. Paul certainly never mentioned that Peter ever came to him during all his times in prison there, and he made exhaustive lists of everyone who visited or did any good work for him. You’d think the pope would’ve at least visited his suffering brother. God said we (believers) are a nation of kings and priests, with Christ our high priest, who ever lives to make intercession for us.

          • susan

            “He did not make Peter a Pope.”

            Who did Jesus give the keys of the Kingdom to?

            Here is something good to read and consider.


          • racarrera

            She won’t bother. She’s neck deep in the fecal droppings of cult ‘Christianity’.

          • Wilma Mills

            Susan, you ask, “What is faith?” Here’s one of the best ways I know to explain it. We use faith everyday without even thinking about it. Every time you sit down on a chair, you have faith it will hold you. The same when crossing a bridge, you have faith that the buildegs did their job.Sometimes we may put our faith in the wrong people and be hurt or disappointed. It really hurts when people don’t have faith in us, say they don’t believe us. God feels that way too. He made a perfect way of salvation for us sinners who could never live a life that merits Heaven. Jesus is that wonderful, loving way, that the Father made for us. He’s begging us to use the way. You’ll find Him faithful and so worthy of your faith. God loves us to believe Him. “Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

      • Trevor

        Let me take a different position.

        Suppose the rapture never happens. Then those who have been in that camp for so long, which you would be included, would walk away from the Faith because you have been taught a bunch of bunk that are based on unsound doctrine which was invented in the 1800s.

        I cannot find one single Church Father from 70 AD to today who supported such a theory. They all taught to expect for the Antichrist to come first before the Lord’s appearance.

        The real tragedy is today’s pre-tribulation evangelical camps are setting up their members to fail because they have been taught that they would be whisked away in a blink of an eye instead of preparing for the hardship that is expected of Christians.

        To prove my point, I will simply point to the Iraqi and Syrian Christians, all part of the ancient apostolic church, and the persecution they have endured to this day with no help coming from Western church! So, why should the evangelicals be whisked away to safety while the apostolic Christians are left behind?

        Edit: I was just reminded that there are some Protestant churches in Turkey suffering persecutions as well. How come they haven’t been raptured either?

        • Wilma Mills

          The reason we’ll be whisked away is because at that time the wrath of God will be poured out on the inhabitants of earth. We are definitely not exempt from persecution of men and demons and all manor of earthy tribulations, but “We are not appoinced to wrath.” Enoch was raptured. Elijah was raptured. Even Noah sat shutup in the ark for “7” days before it started raining. God is not a wife beater. The bride will be safely in her chambers before the wrath of God begins.

          • AnthonyM

            Rev 6:9-10

            And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
            And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth” and avenge our blood.
            Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.…

          • Trevor

            “The reason we’ll be whisked away is because at that time the wrath of God will be poured out on the inhabitants of earth.”

            And you based this on one line from the Scriptures?

            You quoted, “We are not appointed to wrath.” That’s it? That’s your one verse argument?

            Let’s see the whole context, not a verse plucked out of context:

            Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

            Absolutely nothing in here suggests a rapture at all. It actually encourages Christians to live in expectation of the 2nd coming of Christ, which, in another epistle, Paul says is the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of Christ (Titus 2:13).

            In fact, Paul had to write a second epistle again to the Thessalonians because rumors began to spread that the Day of the Lord had passed and panic was spreading in the Church. In that, Paul made it quite clear that the 2nd Coming of Christ cannot come until the appearing of the Antichrist first!

            In many of Jesus’ parables, He did not alluded to a rapture except to discuss the 2nd Coming. Those who are watching will be rewarded while the other will be cast into the outer darker with gnashing of teeth and weeping.

            Again, I cannot find one single Church Father who have said there would be a rapture. They all agree more on the 2nd Coming is dependent on the Antichrist’s appearance.

            In a vision by the fourth century saint, St. Niphon, he revealed that the rapture you are looking for is the resurrection of the dead together with those who are living. You can read about it here.

            You write, “Enoch was raptured.” No he wasn’t. God took him to be held until an appointed time. Same thing with Elijah. He was taken in sight of all men, including his protege, Elisha. Is that a rapture? No. Again, God took him to be returned for an appointed time.

            For example, the Jews were expecting for Elijah to return, and he did…John the Baptist, and this would be confirmed by reading Jesus’ own words.

            Finally, the use of Noah as evidence of another rapture is also not a good ground for argument for favor of the rapture. Because after the flood was over and water receded from the earth, Noah and his family began to repopulate the earth. The logic is then that the rapture occurs and then Christians returns to repopulate the earth. It’s a vicious cycle, to be honest, of life and death and so on.

            I am more in agreement with the line from the Creed:

            He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

            That would be consistent with the vision of the fourth century saint and all the early church fathers who also argue about the Antichrist first appearing before Christ’s second coming to finally, once and for all, destroy the Antichrist and put all things under His feet.

            Again as I said earlier, the pre-tribulation rapture is a recent innovation introduced in the 1800s and gain widespread acceptance by the 1950s.

            And that’s all I have to say on this matter.

          • Kkdgrace

            I think many Christians are either confused or deceived about the difference between “tribulation” and “wrath”. It is my belief that Christians must endure the tribulation to come, whilst being saved from the wrath God pours out upon evil at the time of the end. Maybe I’m wrong. I thought I had read we weren’t appointed to wrath….nothing about not having to endure tribulation, however.

          • Trevor

            I see wisdom in you. So I will ask you these questions:

            To whom is the devil’s wrath poured out upon? To whom is God’s wrath poured out upon?

            Hint: look in Revelation and Romans to get your answers.

          • racarrera

            To anyone with common sense, this destroys the idea of pre-Trib rapture. Alas…

          • Trevor

            History, as you once eloquently put it, is a cruel mistress to Protestants holding fast to pre-tribulation doctrine developed and expanded from Darby (sometime during the 1800s) to Tim LaHayne and Hale of the 1900s.

          • racarrera

            So you’re literally peddling a heresy brought about by a fever-drenched Scottish girl and peddled by the charlatan John Darby, and you expect this to be treated as serious?

          • Wilma Mills

            Don’t you just wish you could be like bloody Mary and burn me at the stake?

          • Wilma Mills

            “If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.” His kingdom’s not a physical kingdom right now. That will be during the millennial reign. The worst thing Christians are to do is shun people of the church.

          • racarrera

            Considering how ignorant you are of how much blood heretics spilled murdering Catholics and then siding with Muslims at Lepanto, it’s better to simply dunk you in your ignorance.

          • Wilma Mills

            Well this “heritic” and all others who believe what I do have no interest in killing anyone. And if the people didn’t fight with the Catholics it was probably because they didn’t trust them after all the horrendous treatment. You think the pope is supposed to rule the world. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. “If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.” There is no physical kingdom of God in this world. That will happen during Christ’s millennial reign, which you’re not allowed to believe in. This country was formed to be free from church run states.

          • racarrera

            You have a very selective reading pattern.

          • susan

            Her soul is in mortal danger.

          • racarrera

            Amen, my friend. Unfortunately, you can’t suffer fools. You can only let them know of the danger they pose to themselves out of their own ignorance. Americans are among the warmest and finest people on this Earth, and I’m proud to be among them in many ways. But the negative is that some are mind-numblingly ignorant and arrogant about it. You see it in religious and political discourse.

          • Grandmere

            It is useless to try to dialog with Wilma or Filomena. They are wearing cement shoes. Neither one will give the other a quarter inch and are not interested in reconciliation based on humility before God.

        • susan

          I’ll leave that answer for Wilma. I have to go now. Cya!

        • Tom_mcewen

          Ecclesiastes 8:8 there is no discharge in this war. The rapture says there is, it is us who must remain and fight. While they watch from heaven. Do you respect them, not me.

      • Julie

        Do you know a Britisher named, Darby concocted this idea of the Rapture only about 150 years ago or so??? And that he later retracted it.

        This thinking is more based in the USA than anywhere else.

        • Wilma Mills

          Isa.26:20-21 Come, my people, enter into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation is overpast. For, behold,the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for there iniquity:”

          • David W

            No mention of the mythical rapture in that passage. The apostolic church has endured centuries of persecutions and members of the various protestant sects will be devastated when the false teachings of the PLYMOUTH BRETHREN are exposed. How many evangelicals and mainline church members will follow the example of Calvin and Luther to take sides with the Caliphate is anyone’s guess.

          • Wilma Mills

            Well, we’ll see. That verse discribes it perfectly.

          • Wilma, you misunderstand what is God’s wrath and what are the works of the devil.
            Matthew 24:29 “¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” 30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
            This is one verse amongst others saying the same thing. It identifies the Lord’s coming AFTER the tribulation. The great tribulation is not God’s wrath. That is Satan’s attack. We get to experience it. The good news is the Lord’s coming stops it.
            How are precious metals refined to remove impurities? They are put in the fire, right? At some point all believers will stand before the judgement seat of the Lord. In his examination of us, anything in our lives which is according to the flesh will be burned up. There is that fire again. It is not God’s wrath. It is his purifying of us. Main point: The Lord does not come (parousia-the apostles initial question about his coming) before the great tribulation. It really is that simple.

          • Wilma Mills

            God’s wrath is mixed in there too.

          • Julie

            Watch out…it means you, too.

          • Wilma Mills

            Yes, I’m looking for and hastening unto the day. The chambers are the place Jesus prepared for his people for when he comes again to recieve US unto himself.
            Heb.9:28 “…and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

      • susan

        “There is pleasure in thinking that you have something to add to what Christ has done.”

        “Do you know you’re saved so that if you were to die right now, heaven would be absolutely certain for you?” This “all-important” question is designed to bait Catholics into an ambush. When I speak at conferences around the country, I often ask the attendees how many have been asked that question by a Fundamentalist or Evangelical: Usually, over half of my Catholic audience raises a hand.

        If the Catholic responds as any good Catholic would by declaring he cannot—apart from a special revelation from God—have metaphysical (or absolute) certainty concerning his salvation, the Protestant then springs his biblical trap, 1 John 5:13: “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.” Next he tells the Catholic that if he will but “confess with [his] lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in [his] heart that God raised him from the dead, [he] will be saved” (Rom 10:9-10). All we need do is confess Jesus as Lord, and salvation is assured. We can know it with certainty. Salvation is guaranteed regardless of anything we may do or not do in the future. What a deal!

        The Catholic Two-Step Response

        Step One: The Greek word for knowledge (Gk. eideitei) in 1 John 5:13 does not necessarily equate to absolute certainty. We use the verb know the same way in English. For example, I may say I know I am going to get an A on my Greek exam tomorrow. Does that mean I have metaphysical certainty of this? Not at all. What I mean and what the verb know can be used to indicate is that I have confidence that I will get an A on my test tomorrow because I have studied the material thoroughly and I know it well.

        The context of 1 John makes it abundantly clear that this is how “knowledge” is being used in 1 John 5:13. In the next two verses, John draws a parallel between the certainty we have concerning our salvation and the certainty we have when we petition God in prayer: “And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.”

        Does this mean we have absolute certainty we will receive what we ask for when we make requests of God in prayer? Obviously not! John says we can have “confidence,” but not absolute certainty. We cannot always know with strict certainty that our request is truly “according to his will.” Moreover, Psalm 66:18 informs us: “If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.” And 1 John 3:22 says, “. . . we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.” Can we always be certain we have not “cherished iniquity” in our hearts, or that we have not done anything that may have displeased the Lord?

        Step Two: Our salvation is contingent upon many things according to the Bible. This indicates the certainty of our salvation is not absolute. Just a few examples include 1 John 1:8-9: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” The text says we will be forgiven if. Thus, the sobering truth is: Unconfessed sin will not be forgiven. And the Bible is very clear that no sin can enter into heaven (see Hb 1:13; Rv 21:8-9, 27).

        I have heard it said that if is “the biggest little word” in the English dictionary. Well, Scripture has lots of ifs. John, for example, also says: “Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life” (1 Jn 2:24-25).

        This passage is plain. Our eternal life is contingent upon our choosing to abide in God. Can we choose the opposite? Absolutely! John goes on to explain: “No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil . . . No one born of God commits sin . . .” (1 Jn 3:6-9).

        On the surface, this text seems odd. We have already heard John say that everyone who is born of God does sin. Indeed, “all” sin. Yet, here he says those who are born of God do not sin. Is John contradicting himself? No: John makes a distinction between mortal and venial sins in this same epistle. In 1 John 5:16-17, John gives us remarkably plain definitions of both mortal and venial sins. “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal . . . All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”

        In this context, we can reasonably conclude the one who is born of God does not commit mortal sin. If he were to do so, he would be “cut off” from the body of Christ and would need to be restored via confession to a state of grace (Cf. Gal 5:4, Eph 3:3-6, Jn 20:21-23). Three more texts about the contingency of salvation bolster the argument:

        1 Corinthians 15:1-2: Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. (See also Matthew 24:44-51; Luke 12:41-46; Romans 11:22; Hebrews 3:6;14; Revelation 2:10; 25-26; 3:1-5; 22:18-19, for many more “ifs” and contingency clauses.)
        Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard . . .
        2 Peter 2:20-22: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first . . . It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
        The Evangelical Counter

        In response, the Protestant apologist will sometimes say these texts do not indicate one who was truly saved could actually lose his salvation. The one who, in the end, did not continue with the Lord, never really knew the Lord in the first place. He only knew about the Lord. But this line of reasoning does not hold up under scrutiny. In 2 Peter 2, the Greek word used for knowledge is epignosei. This word means “knowledge,” but it denotes an experiential knowledge. This text is very clear that the persons referred to have “escaped the pollutions of the world” through this “experiential knowledge” of Jesus. Only a personal relationship with Jesus can have this effect. Merely knowing about Jesus cannot do that. Moreover, the image Peter uses in verse 22 is of the sow having been washed in water. Water is the symbol Peter uses for baptism in 1 Peter 3:20-21. The connection seems obvious. The sow—female pig—which had been cleansed represents a person cleansed from sin; the sow returning to the mud represents the Christian returning to sin.

        When seen in the fuller context of 2 Peter, this point becomes unmistakable. In 2 Peter 1:2-4, Peter begins with a description of Christians:

        May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge [epignosei, experiential knowledge once again] of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge [epignosei] of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

        One cannot help but see the parallels between these two texts. The same Greek words, epignosei, apophugentes, “having escaped from,” and a form of kosmos or “world,” are used to describe what Christians have been freed from, as well as to describe the one who then goes back to his old ways and ends up worse than he was before he ever knew Jesus.

        These are just a few texts among the scores we could examine, but the bottom line is Scripture is crystal-clear on this point: Once saved does not mean always saved. In Matthew 6:15, Jesus tells us that “if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” It does not matter how “born again” one may be or how many experiences one has had, if he does not forgive others, he will not be forgiven, according to the text. And remember—as we have seen—no sin can enter into heaven (cf. Hb 1:13, Rv 21:27). Further, the Bible says we can “fall from grace” (Gal 5:1-5, Heb 12:14-16), be “cut off” from the vine from which we receive divine life (Jn 15:1-6, Rom 11:18-22), have our names removed from the Lamb’s book of life (Rv 22:19), and it assures us over and over again that if we commit certain sins and we do not repent of them, we will not go to heaven (cf. 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3-5, Rv 21:6-8).

        Not Once, But Many Times

        But what about Romans 10:9-10? Doesn’t the Bible say if you believe in your heart and confess Jesus with your mouth you shall be saved? Yes it does, but that doesn’t mean we need only confess faith in Christ one time. The Bible uses the same Greek word for confess, homologeitai, in multiple places and emphasizes we must continue to confess Christ if we are going to be finally saved. For example, in Matthew 10:22, 32 Jesus says, “You will be hated by all because of my name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.. . . Therefore everyone who confesses me before men, I will also confess him before my father who is in heaven. . . .” (NAB). The context here is one of holding fast to our confession until death (see also 2 Tm 2:12 and Heb 4:14; 10:23-26).

        Finally, confessing Christ is done not only in word, but also in deed: “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tm 5:8).

        Notice, the man who neglects his family for selfish pursuits denies Christ in his actions. And as we have seen, the Bible records in many places extensive lists of sins whereby we can deny Christ, such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Scripture never says the saved can do these things and still go to heaven.

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    Then why in the world is Pope Francis going to Sweden in Oct. to celebrate the 500th Anniversary of the Reformation? Don’t get that man. Period. Not with his admonition to a million (plus) young Catholics in Krakow, this week, to get behind the (clearly) programmed Muslim Invasion Migration into Europe. Don’t trust him. Or, I don’t understand his part in all this.


    • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

      John 6:10;

      “Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? “

    • AnthonyM

      The theme for World Youth Day 2016 in Krakow will focus on mercy, one of the topics Pope Francis talks about most. The event will take place from July 25 to August 1. The theme is “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.”

      While Pope Francis said many things during the week long WYD, it is easy to find something to take out of context. For example “People may judge you to be dreamers, because you believe in a new humanity, one that rejects hatred between peoples, one that refuses to see borders as barriers and can cherish its own traditions without being self-centered or small-minded,” Francis told his flock. Some interpret that as calling for a ‘borderless world society’.

      I don’t know why others do things, but best guess is Pope Francis is going to the 500 year Protestant commemoration for bridge building, or attempts at reconciliation.Nothing more sinister than that. People aren’t converted to a new way by telling them to ‘go rot in hell’ when they invite you. There is a divergence of opinion, and so people believe they are holier than the Pope and judge him harshly, and others that see it as proof he is not Pope (and they are??).

      Don’t be too easily swayed by today’s quick opinion.

    • Tom_mcewen

      I think the Pope is aware this is not the Christendom of Lepanto but has an infestation of secularism, agnostics, atheists and cafeteria catholics. We have nothing but uncertain trumpets. In Shakespeare Henry V the king says, If all things be ready, if our minds are ready..well our minds are not ready. We have protestants who fear and hate the Catholic Church and wishes it destruction. The elites of Europe and America don’t believe in the Christian idea of evil, but of economics. Imagine if the Pope declared a crusade, the world would slam him into a rubber room. Evil must be seen and experienced, then we can start. There is no easy way. Pope Benedict said we would become a small persecuted church, a backbone is needed and only suffering will do it. We have Christ’s word, just not all of us will survive. Let me ask you how do form a force of uncertain trumpets, agnostics atheists secular and elites to fight? This is a fight to the death and we must do this right first time out of the gate Evil is nonexistent to modern eyes, like Tobit the angels must help to take off the scales. You are called part of the church militant for a reason.

      • susan

        You hit the nail on the head. Papa Francis is right where he’s supposed to be. Let’s hope many Christians are heading out of harms way. We don’t have much longer before the caliphate.

      • Vinny Zee

        We should also not forget this is an extraordinary year of mercy, which ends in November (December 8, 2015 – November 20, 2016.) The Church has declared this as a period for remission of sins and universal pardon focusing particularly on God’s forgiveness and mercy. Pope Francis wants the Jubilee to be celebrated not only in Rome but all around the world. For the first time holy doors are going to be opened in single dioceses, either in the main cathedral or in local historical churches. The first holy door was opened by Pope Francis in Bangui on November 29, 2015, during a tour of East Africa. The importance of mercy calls us to reflect on it and recalls the need for the Church to be more open, keeping alive the spirit of the Second Vatican Council.

        I say all of this in addition to what you added. This pope is in a different era, dealing with radically different heresies, indifference, etc. I some days feel he has a bigger picture than I do. He has called on us to be merciful so I try in my might to be merciful.

  • Trevor

    Ugh.. This kind of tolerance crap makes me shakes my head.

  • Tom_mcewen

    I think there some confusion on Adam’s letter to the Barbary state on the USA was not a Christian country. The answer given by the Barbary pirates was they had a duty to enslave Christians, this was real politics, to beg off. The Constitution did not even come into effect until 1790 and there was no true central government until then. Most importantly there was no navy to project power to the Barbary pirates to stop the enslavement of American sailors, the only weapon they had words and begging. The muslims had a good laugh and went back to work. It was not until the beginning of the war in 1801 that six frigates to fight an enemy of the nation. Captains and crews to be trained and marines to be equipped and trained. Until this was done the US Navy was whistling through the grave yard. Like Churchill said it is better to jaw jaw instead of war war. Especially if you only have words. The USA was very weak, it was in the 1800s a merchant not a naval power.

    • Trevor

      Bingo. It was not until Thomas Jefferson became president that he had Congress authorize the creation of the Marines Corps to fight the pirates, hence the line in their hymn, “to the shores of Tripoli,” and sent the Navy to teach the pirates a lesson.

      See, we have been at war with Islam, not because we started it, but they started it by attacking and enslaving Americans. Congress at the time preferred to pay ransoms and Jefferson objected to it. After having read the Quran and conversed with an ambassador, he knew there were no other options but to fight them. It is this kind of history that the liberal’s heads would explode because it destroys their argument that Jefferson was a bona fide liberal. The mistake made by today’s liberal scholarships is they try to pigeonhole Jefferson into the liberal camp, and that is a big no-no.

      Once the Navy and the Marine Corps did their damage to the Barbary states, it began the era of America’s projection of naval power.

      • Vinny Zee

        You stole my thunder. So I’ll just post the Marine Corp anthem here:

        From the Halls of Montezuma
        To the shores of Tripoli;
        We fight our country’s battles
        In the air, on land, and sea;
        First to fight for right and freedom
        And to keep our honor clean;
        We are proud to claim the title
        Of United States Marine

        Our flag’s unfurled to every breeze
        From dawn to setting sun;
        We have fought in every clime and place
        Where we could take a gun;
        In the snow of far-off Northern lands
        And in sunny tropic scenes,
        You will find us always on the job
        The United States Marines.

        Here’s health to you and to our Corps
        Which we are proud to serve;
        In many a strife we’ve fought for life
        And never lost our nerve.
        If the Army and the Navy
        Ever look on Heaven’s scenes,
        They will find the streets are guarded
        By United States Marines.

        • Trevor

          I have a soft spot for the Marines Corps in my heart.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Bro, i wish you could hear the vid i posted to Vinny it is on how Orthodox Christians saved the Marines. I will look for some printed info for you.

        • Стефан Евгений

          Vinny see this bit of history.

        • Tom_mcewen

          This is Obama’s Marine Corp, it is now “..from the Malls of Montezuma to the stores of Tripoli…” Shakespeare talked of “all the accouterments that make a soldier..” That is now the proper handbag and shoes. God help us and the United States Marine Corp

        • Kkdgrace

          Excellent Vinny- thanks for posting that.

    • Стефан Евгений

      But where would America be today without BRAVE Orthodox Christians?

      • Tom_mcewen

        The guy that named all the battles left out the company of marines at Harper’s ferry in 1859 under the command of Captain Robert E. Lee AUS

        • Стефан Евгений

          HE DID!

  • Trevor

    “[…] to understand prophecy we really need to know our history.”

    Wow, what an amazing line!

  • luis

    I agree. We need unity amongst Christians more then ever. I also hope Pope Francis changes his mind quickly. Franklin graham posted today:

    Pope Francis said Wednesday that “the world is at war,” but he said it was not a war of religion. I agree that the world is at war—but I disagree that it’s not a war of religion. It is most certainly a war of religion. Religion is behind the violence and jihad we’re seeing in Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and here in this country. It’s a religion that calls for the extermination of “infidels” outside their faith, specifically Jews and Christians. It’s a religion that calls on its soldiers to shout “Allahu Akbar” (“God is Great” in Arabic) as they behead, rape, and murder in the name of Islam. Radical Islamists are following the teachings of the Quran. We should call it what it is.

  • filomena seiffert

    I stand by what I said. Who testifies the hatred protestants have for Catholics and how they slander the Church and mislead others into error are the ex protestant pastors who were seeking the truth and studied going back to first fathers and finding the Catholic Church. Luther was a by-polar full of pride. It is said he entered into the convent to escape the death penalty for having killed a fellow student. At those time the monastery were protected, the law could not condemn one living in one. Some weeks he would pray, fast, do penance, on other he would do nothing. Who think there is excuse for what he did is not reasoning, millions of deaths both physic and spiritual up to the present time and who knows for how long. I know many protestants are not of their doing but were born in protestants families or had no religion, same is true for moslems, but the ones who betrayed Jesus by abandoning His Church and speaking evil of her, they are no better then Judas. I have never heard of any protestant prophecy come true, I see protestants prophecies on a daily basis and the people still dumb enough to believe them, they are like politicians, they say what the people want hear.

  • filomena seiffert

    Not when they are with Catholics and the big problem is that they have broke in 56.000 sects and each one do what he things is right, many are there just to fleece the flock. I had protestants friends and got along with them. When you watch the discussions on the web then you realize what they about, plus the ex protestant pastors spilling the beans on the tactics used to take the sheep from Jesus flock into protestantism, usually the simple, uneducated ones. The jargon is always the same; the Catholic Church preach heresy, is the beast, the great prostitute, the Babylon, the pope is the antichrist, they adore idols and so on.

  • Trevor

    Re-read what I said. I did not advocate any rapture.

  • Trevor

    I love it when a priest does not mince words. These, I will gladly sit under and listen to learn.

    The French are going to learn the hard way, I see.

    • AnthonyM

      Sadly so it seems.

  • Julie

    Many stayed Catholic.

    The Church never sold salvation….indulgences.

    The Council of Trent corrected the abuses of the clergy and mandated they be better educated, as well as the papacy consult with that many more advisors.

    The Catholic Catechism we use today is the one from the Council of Trent, only the doctrines expounded upon for our times.

    The true faith was always taught….The teaching Magesterium of the Church through the Holy Spirit reaches those in the Church who are truly centered on Him and not man and self.

  • Vinny Zee

    Can you possibly expound upon what you mean by, “what the protestants are doing the catholics need?”

  • Wilma Mills

    So good to hear from you. I can sure use the moral support. Well, do you believe in a pre trib rapture? Some are not believing anymore. I do. I see the second coming in two phases. I think the Bible teaches it. Just looked up a verse that lends to it. Hebs. 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
    Every eye will see his glorious appearong, but this seems to be for the truly saved. Only those who’ve trusted completely are without sin unto salvation. Lots of people are looking for him, but he only appears to the Would you care to comment?

  • theophorus

    Once saved, always saved plus a pre trib rapture equals an incredibly lazy ‘christian’. You can literally lay there and waiting for the rapture.

  • susan

    Anyone familiar with or care to comment on this? Is this order under persecution by the Vatican right now?

    Francis of Assisi Prophecy:
    “A Man, not Canonically Elected, will be raised to the Pontificate… In those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a Destroyer.”

    Shortly before he died in 1226, St. Francis of Assisi called together the members of his order and warned them of great tribulations that would befall the Church in the future, saying:

    Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
    The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.
    Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.
    There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.
    Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.
    Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.
    Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

    (Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

  • Trevor

    The resurrection. The Jews asked Jesus about it. The dead in Christ will what? We who are alive and remain will what? The final enemy to be defeat is what?

    The second coming of Christ will defeat death. “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    The Creed make it clear the resurrection and the Second Coming is the Blessed hope.

    That’s all I have to say.

  • Dominus

    Erm, where did Catholic church or catholics by themselves ever publicly proclaimed hatred for jews?

    Luther once visited Rome and got dissapointed with jew treatment, really, is this some kind of a joke?! That’s why he was the one with clear contempt and hatred for jews he many times declared and written about I suppose, ye? Adolf Hitler(protestant or german pagan, whatever) we all know how he “loved” jews, yet he was staunch anti-catholic, and somehow you protestants have the audacity to slander RCC and claim we persecuted the jews?!

    Yes, “divide et impera”, or divide and conquer caused a huge deal of evil, which was the main reason ottomans were able to penetrate SE europe so deep, but mail that complaint to Luther, and protestant heresy, my friend. We Catholics from South-eastern Europe felt that divide the hardest, bleeding and dying for centuries just because that fat wretch and his ilk created their heresy and betrayed the one true church. Even those Austrians, your relatives who were Catholic were showing disdain towards non germanic christians and refused to send military reinforcments many times, while we fought the devil turks. Well, it seems that bill will be paid afterall, in 21st century. This time you will have a chance to deal with them in your midst, to see what we dealth with centuries past. It’s kind of poetic justice in a way, when you look at it, for that great betrayal all those centuries. I’m not gloating or happy, btw, just had to tell you this so you understand historical context a bit clearer. Germans biggest weakens is their arrogance and selfishness, which they have shown through history, some of them even allied with turks against catholic Europe.

    As I said week or so ago on other article, I lost a great deal of respect for Germans, when I realised how bad they have continually picked their allegiances.

  • elopes

    Something that has bothered me throghout the years was the fact that we, those who live in the west have peace because of men like Charles Martell, Jan Sobieski, the Catholic kings of Spain, Richard Lionheart, Vlad(aka Dracula), and so many other Catholics who fought the good fight.

    When I put my head on the pillow everynight I wonder how we all take for granted the peace we all have (for now)

    I have no doubts that once again Catholicism will save the because we, protestants, are a bunch of useless cowards.

    I just ask God Almighty that, when my time comes I make a stand for my family, my brothers and sisters, and for my country.

  • Raph Sebastian

    And if one is stepped in history one ceases to be Protestant.

    The recently deceased Tim LaHaye will have a lot to answer for because through his errors and falsities many have been led off the path of truth.

    • Kkdgrace

      Ralph, your first line is oh so true. It’s when I started studying the history of the Faith and the writing of the Church Fathers- along with a deeper study of the history of the Reformers- that my eyes were opened. I strongly encourage every Protestant/Evangelical to take the time to investigate and study the history of our Faith. I mean, how can it hurt? It will either open their eyes or not..but there is no excuse for blindly forging ahead, refusing to look at the truths of the past.

  • Raph Sebastian

    Welcome home!

  • Vinny Zee

    I see from your post your are Pentecostal. I would just like to point out that the Pentecostal view of “walking in the Spirit” is much different that what is understood as walking in the Spirit. Unfortunately “Holy Ghost fire” has not always translated into Holy Ghost living. However, if you are walking by the Spirit, then continue in that walk. However, you should be cautious in saying you do not see Catholics “walking in the Spirit.” A Catholic sees the Spirit as involved in everything in the life of a Catholic. The Holy Spirit is invoked at the changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit is invoked and called upon in Baptism. The Holy Spirit is invoked and called upon in the confessional. So the life of a Catholic is walking in the Spirit. Not just because there was an outward manifestation of prophesy or speaking in tongues. The fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, long-suffering. You’ve never seen a Catholic living by such principles? Yes, a greater bond of unity and understanding is important for us to all stand as brothers and sisters in these evil days.

  • Of course until he has a cross to bare the matter will change.

  • Tom_mcewen

    Because your founder said “Every man who reads scripture deems himself a theologian and a doctor and his proof is he has shallowed the Holy Spirit, feathers and all” – Martin Luther. Do you see yourself in that quote? I do.

  • Wilma Mills

    YAY !!!! Blazeman !!!!!

  • Kkdgrace

    Thanks for another outstanding Sunday Special. I always enjoy reading them tremendously and feel blessed by the insight you provide. The views of prophecy that have reigned over the past 500 years are so very deeply entrenched and it seems it’s difficult for people to overcome the millenniums of deeply rooted teachings- especially as it seems so many are falling away from the Church and any interest in Her teachings. It’s discouraging but I guess expected as a sign of the times. I thank you for giving me extra “meat” to chew on. The entire world seems to be in ever increasing chaos and its difficult at times to see any optimism for the Christian amongst the despair of the whole- although I know at heart that’s just another lie the enemy uses to try to beat us down. Every time I read the news it seems there is yet another evil either already here or at least looming on the horizon. I know “how the story ends”, so to speak, but it can be difficult to keep myself from feeling disheartened- especially when I consider my children and the future they may have to face. I pray for them to be strengthened in the Faith but there are massive forces- from every comceivable direction- pulling at them and keeping their hearts and minds distracted from the things of the Lord. I often feel those distractions myself, so I can only imagine how they must be affecting our children.

    All I can do is remain in prayer, try to remain aware of the forces aligned against my allegiance to my God, and fight all these distractions with every fiber of my being. Seems to be getting more difficult as time progresses and as our world darkens even further. So much evil abounds and surrounds us- it takes my breath away and sometimes I have to fight a desire to hole up somewhere so that I don’t have to deal with all of the things I am seeing- both here and on the horizon. The split of the Faith into so very many competing factions has been one of the evil one’s “finest” acts, if you consider how it has fractured and weakened the strength of the Faith as a whole- all of the incessant infighting over the centuries and the seemingly never-ending heresies that continue to arise or to reappear after being dealt with during a much earlier time. I don’t mean to be so negative. Maybe I’m just going through a period of being overwhelmed, especially as I see the massive corruption taking place in our upcoming elections and the events occurring on the world stage and the lies and deception that surround those events.

    What do you think about what is happening with Russia? Seems the US is determined to provoke them into war, despite Putin’s pleas to journalists to report what is REALLY going on and the extreme danger of the provocations taking place . I am ashamed of my Country for the part it is playing- lighting match after match and seeming to hope something takes hold in order to provoke a conflagration of frightening proportions.

    Well, I guess I have lamented enough as far as my concerns about the goings on in this present age. Back to Scripture and much , much prayer. Once again, thank you for your insight- a haven of sanity in this insane and increasingly evil world. God bless, sir. We love you in the Lord and you are such a blessing to us.

  • Julie

    Nobody follows the pope blindly. We follow Christ.

    The problem with Luther was that he was highly scrupulous to the point of being imbalanced, the theologian who had jurisdiction over him caused problems by not wanting to first discuss issues with him, people didn’t have email those days, and Leo was not communicating with him either.

    There were countless Catholics who stayed Catholic irregardless of Leo and various clergy because they drew on the full deposit of faith in Christ the Church has always provided.

    What Protestants end up doing is staying in Luther’s time before he split and don’t realize that the Council of Trent, that took a number of years for the bishops to congregate due to wars, corrected the abuses of clericalism.

    And the Church never taught we pay indulgences to go to heaven. Never. And we still have indulgences.

    What helps to understand them are the graces the Church has afforded us to draw on other forms of penance…for the remission of sins that is found in the Chapter of Luke…we must do penance for our sins for the remission of sins for our salvation, otherwise we perish.

    Catholics are focused on picking put the Cross and following Christ.

    We will never until the next life how valuable redemptive suffering is.

    You have to go beyond Luther and realize the Church is self reforming, its workers constantly re evaluating themselves.

    And yes, there are those in the Church who fail us today…and Christ said the chaff would always be with the wheat…it is a trial…but it helps us draw closer to the Lord and all the Church gives us, rather than focus on fragile men who do not provide us salvation but Christ alone.

  • Julie

    Thank you for your kindness.

    The Catholic bible uses the word, penance. For myself looking past on my life..I ask the Lord to always stand in the place where I have been lacking, but in the next opportunity, now live His presence and virtue to be more of Him and less of me.

    We do not see penance…as ‘works’….but as Christ said, the road to heaven is narrow and difficult, the road to hell wide and easy…the Kingdom….the pearl of Great Price where we must die to ourselves daily…..

    Penance is mentioned in the Gospels….Matt 3:2, Matt 3: 8 and 11, Matt 4:17, Matt 11:20, Matt 11:21, Mark 6:12, Luke 3:8, Luke 5:32, Luke 10:13, the big one, LUKE 13:3, Luke 13:5, Luke 15:7….and on….

    The Catholic Church’s foundation of Scripture is based on the Septuagint, the one Our Lord and the apostles referenced…Christ fulfilling the Septuagint…Christ Himself the living Word of God.

    Catholics from the first hundred years or so, rather experienced Christ as nourishment, as consuming Him in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    The bible was finally completed several hundred years later, and still most could not afford to have a bible of their own….let alone read one.

    And I wonder in Luther’s time, how many of his followers could read?

    Later the Protestants came out with sola scriptura…which is not in Scripture but rather we follow Christ as the apostles taught us and the tradition they set down in Word, Sacrament, ritual, practice, morality.

    The King James Version simply changes penance to instead mean,

    we know that we can say we are sorry but still go back and do the same old stuff. So we have to work on ourselves through our own desire to be more Christ like and depend on His grace to work within us and deny ourselves.

    So have Lent 6 weeks out of the year, where we try to do penance, not so much skip the candy and ice cream, but spend time doing little penances or almsgiving so He can grow in us….not by ourselves, sola alone, but together as Church.

    Because anything we have that is good belongs to God alone, and we cannot give any credit to ourselves but to the Lord Who works through us if we so will Him and allow Him the space.

    Penance is the means to allow the Lord to enter us and help us to avoid future sin and selfishness…along with the sacrament of ….Penance.

    Hope this helps.

  • Julie

    You have to use the Church’s interpretation of the Bible that has always been there since Christ established His Church. It doesn’t mean you go along with His ministers.

    It is about the full deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles and every one of us no matter their rank, must do God’s will every day.

  • Vinny Zee

    I can see you are a true brother in Christ and it is refreshing to have you as a fellow heir with Christ. One day we will be beyond the petty divisions. Until then we must all attain to the knowledge of Christ and walk according to the calling he has given each of us. God Bless you.

  • Wilma Mills

    Great to hear from you again. Wonderful rendering of God’s salvation plan. Let’s pray for all our friends on this site. I’ve never heard of Charles Lawson. I’ll have to look him up. Thanks for the help.

  • I can easily recognise the relationship of that song with Wilma. Sadly, she won’t. It seems people like her who have had some emotional experience believe the church quickly descended into apostasy and the Lord only had a handful of ‘true’ believers amongst them until the deeds of Lurther occurred. It is the ultimate pride. They don’t need apostolic succession. They make up the rules as they go along. These people tell God how it’s going to be.