BOMBSHELL: To Be Messianic Is To Be Catholic, Not Hebrew Roots

By Walid Shoebat

TO BE MESSIANIC IS TO BE CATHOLIC. Does this turn you off? Explain then, why early Jews, prior to Christianity, including even the first Jews who became Christian, these two groups resemble very little from what we see in the modern Messianic movements of today? It is here where none in the Hebrew Roots Movement or even the Messianic Evangelicals can connect to the true Hebrew Roots. Here, lets walk together through an amazing journey to understand the wealth and the treasures of God and see how to become as wise as serpents.

Benedict-Menorah

Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel understood Messianism. Paul who met Jesus at the Road to Damascus was a pupil of Gamaliel the grandson of Hillel, who taught between 22-55 AD. Uzziel, Hillel’s disciple understood Isaiah 53 as referring to ancient commentators which he understood differently than post Temple rabbis who switched the subject of Isaiah 53 to being about “Israel”. Uzziel explains it completely as Christians today understand the Messiah:

“Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to  c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

‘Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).'”

“Our ancient commentators with one accord”? This would mean that they all understood Israel’s rejection of the Messiah. We also find the same interpretation in the much older Talmud, the Babylonian Talmud: “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted” (Sanhedrin 98b) and similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: “Come hither” draw near to the throne “and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,” this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.”

What is amazing is that the sages of Judaism extracted all this from linking other prophecies to Ruth 2:14.  Yet all what Ruth 2:14 speaks about is a dinner (at the Shepherds Fields which my family owned much of that land) between Boaz and Ruth:

 And Boaz said unto her, At mealtime come thou hither, and eat of the bread, and dip thy morsel in the vinegar. And she sat beside the reapers: and he reached her parched corn, and she did eat, and was sufficed, and left. (2:14)

On a side note, I am touched by Ruth and Boaz. My grandmother Hilweh (meaning beautiful) was a gleaner, and how she married my grandfather who was a major land owner was similar to how Ruth married Boaz. What is profound is how a simple story about a dinner is so mystically interpreted. A simple invitation to dinner signifies the calling of the people to the Kingdom of the Messiah; a mere dipping of bread into vinegar is meant to foretell the suffering of Christ.

The modern reads such a verse and says, “They are just having dinner.” But the orthodox would read this, and see God. This way of reading Scripture is not exactly how Evangelicals read Scripture, it is the same as that of Catholic Church Fathers, who saw God in the simplest of events. For example, St. Bernard read the story of St. Peter coming to Christ with two swords, and saw one sword representing the temporal authority, and the other representing the spiritual authority, of the Church. Today’s modern evangelical theologian would read the story about Peter’s two swords, and say, “Peter had two swords,” so what?

It is this type of review of Scripture that makes all the difference. The Church Father would read “the two swords of Peter” and make the most profound observations, observations that would move nations and rile up armies just as Abraham, Moses and Joshua did before them. It is this connect between Old Testament and New Testament that has been lost through the reformers who in reality were no reformers at all. The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well: “as it is written, ‘Surely our sicknesses he has carried.'” (Zohar II, 212a)

The early sages expected a Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy including being a “healer” “savior” and even “the Son of God,” which the Jews denied only later on, and just as Luther did, they entirely removed the Book of Wisdom from their “inspired” books. This is no minor issue. In Wisdom, Messiah is being delivered into the hands of his enemies to be killed. And while Isaiah 53 speaks of the suffering servant, this prophecy written way prior to the New Testament in Wisdom has the “Son of God” including His Passion all in a one-lump within the same context:

“For if the just one be the Son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us [the Jews] condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”— Wisdom 2:12-20

So besides a reference to a suffering servant in Isaiah 53, whom we debate constantly about with the Jew who then clings to the post Temple era interpretation, that the suffering servant was an allegory for “Israel,” here we have this suffering Messiah being “the Son of God” who will be tortured and killed.

No one, be it post-Temple rabbis to Luther, can deny or refute the essential need that we understand why God chose the Greek Septuagint which included Wisdom.

With Luther, Wisdom departed.

It was this manuscript that included what the Jews later denied that the “Messiah” was no mere man, but “the Son of God” Who can be found sacrificed only in the Book of Wisdom. Now we understand who truly protected the meaning of “All Scripture” including the only Old Testament reference where in one solid verse, “the Son of God” is “condemned to death”.

Therefore, it must be conceded that it was not Luther who protected the Bible, and unlike the post-Temple Jews who also removed these crucial seven books, The God of the Jews, Who neither sleeps nor slumbers, reserved all this through His Church: the Catholic Church. This is why Eastern Orthodox and Catholics have these seven additional books, which were transmitted from the Jewish mindset that existed before the Temple was destroyed etching this theology into the wonderful Septuagint.

Do we then undermine all this for the sake of Luther and our denominational prejudices? God forbid, for I’d rather be a humble Uzziel than an Akiva who announced the wrong Messiah as a result of his pride.

And for a few cutting-edge examples, let us demonstrate this issue more closely. In Matthew 1:23, the pivotal prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 in the Septuagint it says that the “virgin” will conceive a child while in the Hebrew Masoretic text it is a “maiden”. The Septuagint therefore leaves no arguments open regarding the virgin birth. Jews prior to the Hebrew Masoretic text clearly understood that a virgin is to give birth to the Messiah of Israel who is the “Son of God”. It is these types of strange prophecies that show that God is sovereign. Imagine if the disciples used Luther’s favorite, the Hebrew Masoretic text, presuming that it was at hand in that time, and only had one verse in which it says “a maiden” gave birth, we could have a splinter cult that instead of having a Catholic-Protestant divide arguing over Mary’s sinlessness or her assumption to heaven, they would argue the central theme that Christ came as a result of a natural birth from a sexual union between Joseph and Mary.

This would be utter blasphemy. It is for this reason why when the Orthodox reference single words or single verses that a mountain of theology is rightfully extracted. So Mary being “full of grace” or that she will be “blessed throughout all generations,” that such phrases have monumental meanings.

Even the healing ministry of Christ and His message including the Gospel going to the Gentiles, it was the Greek Old Testament that set the runway which the Catholics used and the Protestants later rejected. For one example out of many, in Luke 4:18, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me to preach the gospel to the poor …” adding “recovering of sight to the blind,” which the Hebrew Masoretic text did not include in their text. Just this verse alone is monumental and since even the Protestant does not deny, that such short phrases are major, why then deny the Catholic and the Orthodox on their elaborate understanding regarding single verses?

As to insuring the Gentiles entry into the Kingdom, a very crucial aspect of Christian theology, in Acts 15:16-18, James the brother of Jesus quotes Amos 9:11-12 from the Jewish Septuagint, stating that other nations than Israel may seek the Lord, while the Masoretic Hebrew text says that the house of David (Israel), making it Israel centric, will possess the nations, entirely robbing the text of the meaning which James quoted.

In Romans 9:33, Paul quotes Isaiah 28:16 of the Jewish Septuagint calling Jesus the foundation stone which God lays in Zion, then, “whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” In contrast, Luther’s favorite, the Hebrew Masoretic text rendered the stone as a promise from God followed with, “one who trusts will not panic.”

The important lesson is this: Translation is interpretation. Therefore, the Septuagint is to that extent the earliest surviving witness of how Hellenistic Judaism understood Scripture; and therefore, it is a foundational text for studying the Judaism from which early Christianity arose. It is from here that the Messianic of today should bolt running from the Hebrew Roots Movement and look back to the blasphemers who deny Paul, the Trinity, and the use of the Greek. As Robert Hanhart notes, “the Septuagint cannot be bypassed if we want to conjure the Judaism from which Christianity grew.”

In Romans 10:15 Paul quotes Isaiah 52:7 of the Jewish Septuagint in which a messenger announces “the gospel” or “good news,” literally using the word “evangelion” while in the Masoretic it is simply “peace”.

“Evangelion,” or The Good News is the central issue of the faith as it was for the early Jews. Later in Romans 10:20, Paul returns to the Jewish Septuagint of Isaiah 65:1-2 where God is found by people who did not look for Him, the Gentiles, while the Hebrew Masoretic text only indicates God is ready for “Israel” to find Him. In Romans 15:11, Paul quotes the Jewish Septuagint of Deuteronomy 32:43:

“Be glad, O nations [none-Jews] with His people [the Jews], and let all the angels of God prevail for Him”.

The Hebrew Masoretic text, which Luther favored, completely omitted this sentence altogether. Even in the very next verse where Paul quotes the Jewish Septuagint from Isaiah 11:10 “the One who rises to rule” (The Messiah) is not in the Masoretic Hebrew Text.

In Romans 9:33 where Paul cites Isaiah 28:16, it speaks of God laying in Zion (Jerusalem) a precious cornerstone who is Christ the Messiah providing salvation to those who trust in him, and that the stone will also be a stumbling block that many will trip over (he uses the same ideas in Rom 11:9-12 and 1 Cor 1:23).

Even the first epistle of Peter, it had more Old Testament references per verse more than any other New Testament writing. When Peter emphasized on Psalm 33, not one of his references reflect the Hebrew Masoretic text, why?

I only quoted a few examples here of the mislabeling as “original” the later version of the Old Testament. Truth is, it was what the Catholics used was the closest to the original. It is crucial therefore, to note that the Septuagint Greek (which is Jewish) predates the other Jewish Masoretic Text (MT) by approximately one millennia. This is really old and is closest to the originals. While attempting to find the oldest texts is a good endeavor, the search for an “original text,” on which to ground one’s faith, is a distinctively modern worry and is in fact a major error to use as the prism from within which we decide theology. Jews compiled the Masoretic text several hundred years after they rejected Jesus. Regardless to what scholars argue (and they argue a lot), in contrast, Jews compiled the Septuagint prior to the arrival of Jesus, therefore bearing no bias against the prophecies concerning Him. And so now you understand, from ancient godly Rabbis to the true use of Scripture, the haters of truth wanted to coverup the truth to keep you blind.

And we ask yet another Jesus style question: “Did God know” or “did God not know” what He was doing when He penned the New Testament through the early church as He protected the Old Testament from the textual corruption by Jesus haters? The question then is: why do so many in both the Protestant and the Messianic circles disagree with the original Church?

All this means that the Greek (not Hebrew) Septuagint either reveals an older version of the Old Testament or a clearer explanation of how we ought to understand the message which the New Testament Greek set the record straight.

Therefore, a pursuit of the “original text” or an “exact text” is therefore not necessary since such pursuit is the futility of Muslims and not Christians. We do not worship a text and it is God Who directs His Body (the Church,) the very body of Christ that wrote the Bible by the Church, for the Church, and not vise versa. Let me remind what God (not what man) ordained, that it was the “Church” that decided on:

“how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church [not the text] of the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

And as it was, as Jesus clarified, that the Sabbath was designed for man, and not man for Sabbath, the Bible is designed by the Church, for the Church, and not the Church for the Bible. Therefore, it is the original Church that designs how the building fits the blueprint which is the Bible, while the building on that blueprint is Christ’s body which directed the hands of men. Period.

While many will argue this point ad nauseam, one needs to think of Calvin’s Systematic Theology and ask: which is the blueprint, the Bible or Calvin’s flowcharts on Systematic Theology? Therefore, we must understand that we must view history correctly and differentiate true Jews from the synagogue of Satan who wanted nothing more than to coverup the truth. In the book of Revelation, Christ refers to the unbelieving Jews of the time as the ‘synagogue of Satan’ on account of their lies and coverups:

 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, NKJV).

While Jesus was addressing current events of His time, this is also prophetic. Such are the adherents of the Hebrew Roots Movement. One must ask: was Jesus anti-Semitic for calling such Jews a “synagogue of Satan”? This is also confirmed in Revelation 3:8-9 where He says:

“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie–indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you” (Revelation 3:8-9, NKJV).

And what do we see today come out of the Hebrew Roots Movement?  Millions today say that using the English name “Jesus” is “improper”. They suggest you use Yeshua instead. For Christians to call the Savior Yeshua including the use of the Hebrew version of the Old Testament is absolutely wrong (which we will also cover in more detail later).

Surprised? Don’t be. Fact is, that by the time you read the name Yeshua, as you are doing here using English letters, you have 100% already mispronounced the name of the Savior. Unless one speaks ancient Hebrew, the Hebrew name ישוע can never be pronounced as Yeshua (Ya-shu-wah) which sounds more like Chinese, not Hebrew.

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These who swallowed the bait, hook line and sinker, do not know that the use of Yeshua as a name for the Savior is an evolved pronunciation that came from English speaking Messianic followers who miserably failed to properly pronounce Hebrew. First of all, the ending in the name Yeshua (what sounds like “ua” or “oowah”) is an American attempt that mispronounce the last Hebrew letter in the name. The last letter is aiyn (ע), a rough, guttural sound not found in Greek or English.

Millions of poor souls are duping themselves. They do not even realize that the Hebrew letter aiyn does not even exist in English and is never pronounced with the “oowah” sounding. In the ancient Hebrew world the letter aiyn just as the Semitic letters Khaf and Cheit are extremely difficult for westerners to pronounce.

Most people (including even Jews) only pronounce the Hebrew letter ayin as a glottal stop if at all, but when ayin is pronounced properly in some Hebrew accents (i.e. Mizrachi, Sephardic) the consonant is pronounced equally no matter where it occurs in the word. In ancient Hebrew it was indeed pronounced more “heavily” while modern Hebrew has slowly rejected this pronunciation (because they simply could not do it) and evolved when the European immigrants who revived Hebrew used sounds they knew from German or Russian, so they didn’t vocalize the Hebrew letter aiyn since they too, like the English speaking world could not do it.

I should know this subject on how to pronounce the Hebrew since it was Eliezer Ben-Yehuda who was the renovator of the Hebrew language for the state of Israel and his grandson, Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yehuda is a friend of mine. His grandfather came from the West. Eliezer and I had such discussions on the pronunciation of David, which most do not even know, should be more correctly pronounced as Dāwīḏ as we said it in Bethlehem. Anyone could consult these sages of the Hebrew language and see that we are correct.

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Eliezer Ben-Yehuda Sr

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Eliezer Ben-Yehuda Jr

Originally the aiyn was pronounced more like the other Semitic languages. In fact all cases of Hebrew phonemes ended up as allophones which wasn’t the case in ancient Hebrew. Ask most Jews and they will tell you that a lot of these traditions of Hebrew pronunciation are disappearing or have already disappeared because most Jews now learn and use modern Israeli pronunciation even in religious contexts.

Another fact is the predominance of Arabic as the spoken language that influenced and helped preserve the sound of ayin among Mizrahi Jews who correctly insist that it is European influence that resulted in its loss.

While everything I wrote so far about pronouncing Yeshua is an issue of semantics and nothing more, the question then is: why then object on semantics when English speaking folk say “Jesus” while the Messianic persist on the wrong pronunciation Ya-shu-whaa? The “oowah” sound is nothing like the sound of “aiyn” just as much as the sound of “Je” is unlike the sound of “Ya”.

Why all this hair-splitting gymnastics when even in the Septuagint and other Greek-language Jewish texts, such as the writings of Josephus and Philo of Alexandria use the Greek Ἰησοῦς Iēsoûs which was the standard Koine Greek form used to translate both of the Hebrew names: Yehoshua and Yeshua?

Greek Ἰησοῦς or Iēsoûs is also used to represent the name of Joshua son of Nun in the New Testament passages Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8. (It was even used in the Septuagint to translate the name Hoshea in one of the three verses where this referred to Joshua the son of Nun—Deut. 32:44.) So if the Almighty cared so much about how we pronounce a name, why is it that two of these men (Joshua the son of Nun and Joshua the High Priest) are mentioned in other books of the Hebrew Bible where they are instead called Yehoshua?

So to use Yehoshua, Yeshua or the Aramaic Eashoa’ M’sheekha or the Arabic Yesu‘ or the Spanish Jesus which is pronounced Hesus or the English Jesus … is all the same to God who never once said that the “saved” can only enter through the gate of “proper pronunciation”.

So it is okay to use Yeshua, but stop insisting that everyone else do the same.

Folks in the U.S. pronounce my name in their accent as Wha-leed when it is the lighter Wleed, but so what? Walid in Hebrew is Yeleed comes from Isaiah 9:6 which was a reference to the Messiah. Yeleed  which means “a child” which Isaiah announces “is born unto us”. My Mother said that she simply wanted to relay a message to me as to remind me later why she was always a Christian even though she had to adhere to Muslim culture. It is the meaning of the name that counted whether in Arabic or in Hebrew and not the pronunciation of the name. It is crucial to understand that God never cared about name pronunciations. Using the name of Jesus implies an understanding of what it means: the authority of the Savior. So when one gets baptized in the name of Jesus, it is this authority of what Jesus stands for. Making the issue of the Savior’s name an issue of pronunciation instead of what this name stands for is the trick of the devil. When the Bible says “For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached …” (2 Corinthians 11:4) would this mean that the impostor must also have the name “Jesus”? In other words, what the Scriptures are saying is that if someone preaches a different savior …

Keep in mind, that the name of Jesus includes an authority to carry out God’s will in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. While the Hebrew Roots focus on pronouncing a name, they ignore the serious issue: that 80% of Messianic synagogues swallow the levin of denying the Trinity (also see the entire Oneness Pentecostals movement). For example, these argue that the early church apparently baptised in “the name of Jesus only” quoting Acts 8:16Acts 10:48 and Acts 19:5 which according to them these verses reveal that early Christians baptized in “the name of Jesus” only. All such controversies were solved during the early church era since “the name of Jesus” was simply to mean “in the authority of Jesus”. The New Testament revealed what such authority entails that when Jesus said“…go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” that the other verses meant the same thing. So now the devil entered this flock, used Yeshua as a name and millions damned themselves straight to hell. All this because these did not follow a simple instruction: be as wise as serpents.

The problem even goes beyond this. Martin Luther went against what the original church did: he used the wrong Jewish Bible. Most Messianic Hebrew Roots do not even know they follow Luther’s error.

WHAT ABOUT USING THE HEBREW BIBLE?

I will not end here since I intend on killing this nonsensical issue once and for all, including the persistence on using the Hebrew Masoretic text, and all this hoopla on the persistence of non-Jews on worshipping in Hebrew. Hebrew is the language of the Jews. Period.

Let me first clarify that I am by no means saying that we should not learn Hebrew to examine our Christian heritage and how it links to ancient Israel. Heavens no. Having converted from Islam to Christianity, I have had the opportunity in meeting and dialoguing with many major figures in both Messianic and Evangelical circles, and during these two decades I slowly began to decipher the good, the bad from the plain ugly.

I recall the days when I would get together with the departed Messianic teacher named Zola Levitt who did a fantastic job connecting  Christianity with ancient Jewish tradition. What was perhaps amazing to me is that such tradition even adds more credence for the ancient Catholic view on Christianity where tradition was important in understanding matters of theology. What is not known by the Messianic is that the Orthodox also speak of Hebrew roots and do a much better job than the Hebrew Roots Movement without the dangers of disconnecting from historic Christianity where the Hebrew Roots make-believe that Christians, by practicing their faith in purely Hebrew are now transmitting back to the original faith as it was practiced by Jesus and the apostles. This is far from the truth.

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Masoretic Text

The major, one million-drachma question to ask is this: if divine authority is linked to Hebrew, why is it that the Almighty saw no sufficient reasons for Christ or any of His apostles to write the New Testament in Hebrew to even choose the Greek pronunciation in calling the Savior the way the Greeks do: “Iēsoûs”?

Who of the detractors can answer this Jesus style question? None.

When Christianity spread outside the borders of Israel, it was apparently the Greek Septuagint from which the Apostles, especially St Paul, preached Christ. This is a tremendously crucial issue. As a result, there was an evolution in Judaism soon after when Jesus departed and the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., where Judaism devolved from its ancient historical roots which by no means was identical to the later splinter into Orthodox, Reform and Conservative. Likewise is what happened in the Church after fifteen centuries when the so-called reformers showed up, the splits continued and still do now where Messianic Judaism of today is not even the same as it was just a couple decades ago from the times of my departed friend Zola Levitt who would not dare teach that denying Paul and that denying The Trinity as Orthodox.

 

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Zola Levitt with Walid Shoebat

But besides Levitt, I had the honor to become friends with the brilliant Messianic Jew: the Harvard Professor Roy Schoeman. But Schoeman was Catholic. The Shoebat-Schooman fellowship ended me up speaking at the Ave Maria Catholic University explaining from Scripture why the Catholic Church can never be the Harlot of Babylon. I was so shocked that few in my audience even knew that such libel “Whore of Babylon” was leveled on the Catholic and chiseled for centuries in the Westminster Confession of Faith announcing every Pope as “the Antichrist”:

…the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God

Centuries of slander, not one was the Antichrist, and without apology, the slander continues where the Bible never once cursed Rome in any literal fashion. While the Protestant condemns the Catholic for issuing anathemas, I confess, I have never shared my Shoebat-Schoeman encounter, fearing the anathemas and excommunications from evangelicals and modern Hebrew Roots. The university pays a token fee for speakers which covers a fraction of the air travel which had to come out of my own pocket. The big-money was in the Trinity Broadcasting Network (I knew them too) and the Benny Hinn (knew him personally too and his mother) and all the signs and wonders movement. Had it been “money” as most falsely accuse, I would not be writing all this here. I loved Catholics as I loved Jews, and here was a Catholic Messianic Jew who perhaps has the same blood running through my veins and his, and they tell me that this Jew is now of the Harlot and Antichrist. They say all this without a morsel of shame. 

The brilliant Schoeman is Messianic, but unlike the Hebrew Roots Movement, Schoeman was no Hebrew Roots Michael Rood heretic. He refuses to be swayed from the true first century heritage where both Christians and Jews used the Greek Bible.

Many do not learn history. It was because the Jews after Jesus interpreted the Greek Bible differently from the early Church that this became the main reason why the Greek Septuagint fell out of use in Judaism and is why the Jews embarked on new translations of the Hebrew text. So instead of using the Septuagint, Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer went backwards and used what the Jews who denied Jesus constructed: the Hebrew Masoretic text.

So from Calvinism to the Hebrew Roots Movement, which seeks to produce anti-Trinitarian converts and Paul-hating judaizers, the demonic attempts never stopped. Calvinists constructed Calvin’s “absolute pre-destination,” which is Islam’s Al-Aqada Wal-Qadar (fatalism) all with Calvin’s systematic theology. Calvinism demanded that the Bible fit a complex view that is presented by sophists who use technical lingo that is meant to impress and deceive.

It is here that we need to follow Christ’s wisdom to be as wise as serpents in understanding how heretics inject their venom by using hair-splitting jargon. For example, the complex structure of Systematic Theology intended to undermine the simple instructions in Scripture from being the blueprint. Calvinism  forced the simpletons to walk through a man-made maze where the Christian is converted into a mouse chasing and hunting for the simple truth by using pre-destination. This new structure uses a network of paths and hedges filled with complex jargon making it difficult to find the way. From Calvin’s tyrannical desire to establish Dominionism to all the talk of complex theological phrases like “Imputed righteousness,” “Imparted Righteousness,” “Infused Righteousness,” “Total Depravity,” “Unconditional Election,” “Limited Atonement,” “Irresistible Grace,” “The Five Points of Calvinism,” “doctrine of perspicuity,” “Covenant theology,” “God’s transcendence,” “substitutionary atonement” … and all the other ad nauseam jargon, the faithful is now forced to find truth from a structured theological flowchart.

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And so it is with certain proponents of heresies, who insist we deal their bone of contention when in reality, they are manufacturing another schism intended to sway Christians from the first century faith. The Hebrew Roots, while they persist we track our roots to the first century, they are in reality cunningly insisting on using the Hebrew, not in order to use the language Jesus and the apostles spoke, but for the simple reason to make-believe that everything you practice now is in the purist sense from the first century. The original faithful used Septuagint Greek and not the Hebrew Masoretic text. It was the Greek, and not the Hebrew, which was a central component of the New Testament and the early Church.

This is the fact that they are not telling you.septuagint

It is this question “why the Greek?” that no multitude of scholars could answer when it comes to defending the use of Hebrew. To these who promote such heresies the question that is impossible to answer without resorting to twisting of the truth is this: why is it that from the reformation to the Messianic Movements of today, so many insist on using the Hebrew text of the Bible, when Jesus and the apostles used the Greek Old Testament? If their arguments are true, that God desires we all use the Hebrew Old Testament, why then did The Holy Spirit Himself inspire the New Testament authors to use the Greek Septuagint and then to write the entire New Testament in Greek? Some insist that we had Matthew in Hebrew, why then did God allow such a manuscript to be lost?

The use of the Old Testament Greek manuscript is chiseled so deep in Christian history that to identify hair-splitters, the divisive, the heretic and the authors of confusion one must always weigh not their hair-splitting arguments, complex jargon or textual criticism, but must ask: why they reject what was instituted by the Church which was established from above, in the beginning of the Church, and not way later when Calvin, Luther, and even way later when the Hebrew Roots movement appeared out of nowhere?

Even Evangelical missionaries do not teach Hebrew to any tribe they send the Gospel to; instead they translate the Word of God to that specific tongue. It was obvious that to God, a focus on one language on earth is the work of Babel, which God cursed and opted for a multi-lingual world. The argument for a one-language is the argument of the Muslim who insists the entire world worship and speak Semitic Arabic. For the apostles to insist that Christian converts learn to recite anything in Hebrew is as ridiculous as insisting on circumcision for Christians, Kosher food, or to only use the King James as the only translation for the English-speaking world.

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King James Bible

One must heed to the warning which Jesus made to be as wise as serpents. Therefore, to attack the use of Greek and in order to insert all the hair-splitting theologies, the devil, like the Muslim does, must attack the Greek Septuagint as a “corrupt, non-original fake”. Why? It is because the Septuagint relays how Jews understood Scriptures prior to the coming of the Messiah and not how they reconstructed it after the Temple was destroyed where Judaism began to devolve. It was for this reason that a Masoretic text was made, which undermined the way Jews viewed the Messiah, stripping away the seven Duetrocanonical  books including other crucial text.

IN DEFENSE OF THE GREEK SEPTUAGINT 

Such attacks from the demonic realm also began as critics attacked the story when one of the world’s greatest libraries wanted the Torah of the Hebrews and the king of Alexandria also badly wanted it. His orders to his librarian essentially amounted to: “spare no expense in getting it”.

So begins the epic story of the Greek Septuagint, the translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into ancient Greek. Would God object that the Hellenists Greek speaking world see His light?

Yet this is one of the most attacked records from the ancient history (mainly by proponents of the Hebrew text) that is The Letter of Aristeas calling it a work of fiction. In the letter, the royal court official wrote to his brother and two centuries later, the Christian Church arose in Jerusalem among Jews who recognized Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, the ‘Anointed One’ and who found in the sacred scriptures of Judaism of their day the meaning of His death and resurrection.

While I will avoid addressing the hair-splitting attacks on the Letter of Aristeas, since it has no relevance in our argument, to insist on an exclusively Hebrew Bible (the proto-Masoretic) as ‘the’ canonical text of the Old Testament at the time of Our Lord is a serious charge. This would mean that the authors of the New Testament failed to quote the Old Testament correctly, because usually they quoted from the Greek Septuagint, not the Hebrew, a fact that is what the hair-splitters will always attack.

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It is crucial for the faithful to understand wisdom-101, that instead of focusing on critics, it is better to address the strength of an argument. Take any court case, one would always find both arguments that are meant to sway the jury, the bottom line is that once the right side wins the court case, it is the strength of the case and not the opposing arguments that count. Of the 80% where some disagreement occurs between the Septuagint and the Hebrew Text,  fewer than 5% agree with the Hebrew against the Septuagint (1). This leaves 95% of the references agree with the Greek. These figures show just how heavily the New Testament writers used the Greek version of the Old Testament and how significant the Septuagint was for the emerging Christian Church.

Christians need to contemplate this very carefully. Therefore, we have two choices, either God busts our bubbles or we try to bust God’s anvil. In the end, the losers are the bubbles that keep trying to land onto the tip of the needle.

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So regardless if the Letter of Aristeasbeing authentic or a work of fiction, is completely irrelevant. Careful study reveals that the Septuagint was likely translated from an earlier version of the Hebrew Bible which brings us to an important issue especially for those interested in Protestant Christian history. The Reformers, in focusing on the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, were not really going back to the oldest sources as they thought. This became especially true after the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls where no one could call the Septuagint translators crazy anymore. At the Dead Sea Qumran caves, there they found variant forms of the Hebrew Scriptures circulating before the time of Jesus. The Hebrew Bible that Jerome and the Reformers took to be more “authentic” and “original” was nothing of the sort. It was a later, heavily edited version of a diverse back history of the Hebrew Old Testament, which the Septuagint provides an earlier glimpse into that history.

The issue of using the Hebrew Masoretic text by the Jews who rejected Christ is that very stumbling over the Corner Stone, Jesus Christ. Such distinctions are crucial since the Septuagint relays how Jews understood Scriptures prior to the coming of the Messiah who they (in the time of the Masoretic text) denied.

In other words, in ancient Israel, it was not “scripture alone” or that each individual was “free to interpret” as the modus operandi of the day, but that there has always been a body of anointed scribes, Levites and Rabbinic interpreters who understood meticulously what was intended with these verses and they dictated how the Scriptures are to be understood, that there will be a “suffering Messiah” who will redeem “the Gentiles” (the none-Jewish nations). Theology and practice was understood and so if the Jews expressed their prayers through incense and so this too was passed down by tradition to the Church, which none of the Messianic movements exercise today. So worshipping in Greek and with incense, which resemble our prayers to God, the Orthodox would be practicing the Jewish faith more accurately than the Messianic Hebrew Roots.

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Therefore, it was the Greek Old Testament, not the Hebrew, together with the Greek New Testament that was the Bible for the Christian church. This was accepted until the sixteenth century when Luther objected, calling the Septuagint “foolish and ignorant” and its translators, “inexperienced and awkward.”  So we ask: who is Luther and who is Hebrew Roots Movement that we may serve them over Christ? God apparently did not feel constraint to speak in Hebrew only; God spoke in Greek when He gave His word to the Christian church and also spoke Aramaic at times when Israel was in exile. The persistence on a one language is the efforts of Babel and not the Holy Spirit.

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The reason for all this attack on the Greek Old Testament Septuagint is because these have a correspondingly important place in Eastern Orthodoxy as well as in Roman Catholicism and is why Protestant scholars, and particularly evangelical scholars, either dismiss the Septuagint completely or consider it an “inferior version” that has little or no exegetical and theological value.

If this was true, where then is the Bible that was in use by the “true believers,” “the Church,” that Christ established in the first century in which He said regarding it: “I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18)?

Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism considered the Books of James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation as well as the Septuagint including Esther and the Deuterocanonicals, which the Catholic Church preserved, calling them “irrelevant”. Augustine however considered the use of the Hebrew Masoretic text as “irrelevant”. Augustine trusted Jesus and the Apostles who quoted from the Greek Septuagint as authoritative, even where it disagrees with the Hebrew text, yet Luther out of hate trusted his own wit. Today no serious Christian can deny the wisdom of Augustine and the foolishness of Luther. Augustine corrected Jerome when he was about to embark on the same folly as Luther and use the Hebrew texts:

 I beseech you not to devote your labour to the work of translating into Latin the sacred canonical books, unless you follow the method in which you have translated Job, viz. with the addition of notes, to let it be seen plainly what differences there are between this version of yours and that of the Septuagint, whose authority is worthy of highest esteem. For my own part, I cannot sufficiently express my wonder that anything should at this date be found in the Hebrew manuscripts which escaped so many translators perfectly acquainted with the language. I say nothing of the Seventy, regarding whose harmony in mind and spirit, surpassing that which is found in even one man, I dare not in any way pronounce a decided opinion, except that in my judgment, beyond question, very high authority must in this work of translation be conceded to them. I am more perplexed by those translators who, though enjoying the advantage of labouring after the Seventy had completed their work, and although well acquainted, as it is reported, with the force of Hebrew words and phrases, and with Hebrew syntax, have not only failed to agree among themselves, but have left many things which, even after so long a time, still remain to be discovered and brought to light. Now these things were either obscure or plain: if they were obscure, it is believed that you are as likely to have been mistaken as the others; if they were plain, it is not believed that they [the Seventy] could possibly have been mistaken …

So to accept the detractors arguments, we must ask: for fifteen centuries was the Church led astray, until,  that is, Martin Luther showed up and that we should accept Luther’s choice who insists we use the Hebrew, all the while he hated the Hebrews and wanted to make Moses and the prophets “German” and even wrote his evil tract titled “The Jews and Their Lies”?

WHAT ALL SLANDERERS HAVE IN COMMON

Remember that Jesus rebuked slanderers and in fact He was the most slandered figure in history. This is also the type of suffering His followers will experience. I have been more slandered by so-called Christians way more than I have ever been slandered by Muslims and if in doubt, a quick view of my comment section will reveal much vitriol. The strange thing is that even my defense of what I believe as the truth is considered an “attack” and “plain rude” to even send messages wishing I “never converted to Christianity” and that I was better off “remaining as a “Muslim terrorist” where I am “a better fit”.

Many of Catholic-scoffing notables who even supported me against CNN’s slander have turned on me while other even stood with CNN. This including other types of Christians who turned on me while they act sycophantic towards the sodomite and the Muslim to quickly apologizing for the Crusades. When one finds true faith, one finds himself writing letters of similar suffering where so many left and abandoned Paul betraying him. Today the majority of the Hebrew Roots have also abandoned Paul. Nothing has changed.

And who today is persecuting Hyper-Calvinists and Hebrew Roots? In fact, all of these do follow Luther unaware. They do so even despite how much they denounce the man. All one needs to do is to examine their belief in the “sola” this and the “sola” that, and of their admiration of the Hebrew and their denouncing the Greek and their chastisement of Church fathers from Polykarp all the way to when Constantine victoriously, as a type of Moses, emerged to end Christian persecution. Constantine haters have no incense, no war victories, no remarkable art, just bare-naked walls …

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Speaking positively of Constantine is also an anathema since they, just like the Muslim, are quick to slander and accuse, that Constantine supposedly “corrupted the true original faith” including even “using the wrong Bible”. Likewise with the Septuagint. These do their faulty analysis in the typical fashion. They begin to critique the Septuagint, questioning its authenticity since we do not know who translated the Hebrew to Greek. So they begin to add more speculations, that the Septuagint is worthless!

Such method is like questioning the book of Hebrews since there has been many “theories” of “when” this book was written, and “who” wrote it. Some say a Gentile wrote it while others say it was a Jew. Some claim Paul wrote it while others say by Luke, Barnabas, Silas, and Apollos. Some claim it was written in the early 60’s AD while others in the late 90’s AD. Such are the authors of confusion.

One scoffer with a “Th.D.” and “Ph.D.” is quick to even slander. He writes that Origen, Eusebius and many “other of the so-called early Church Fathers” “were merely religious Gnostics steeped in pagan Greek philosophy” and that “the Apocrypha has always been “part and parcel” of the Septuagint”. Fact is they were appended to the Septuagint and added for historical purposes just as it was appended to the original 1611 King James Version. This same scoffer says that the “Arian heresy resulted from Origen’s editing the Greek manuscripts”, when Origen was quoted and referred to when the Fathers of the Church was combatting Arianism. Such slanderous and wicked generation.

Again, the quest to find an “original text” and to degrade what we have, becomes a case of what cults do. Muslims when they challenge Christians they insist “produce the original Bible”. Although no Muslim was able to produce the “original Quran” such is the quest of the scoffers. Why then do so many from the  seminary graduates are mimicking Muslims?

It is the mind of God that we should seek and not the strict way that certain scholars observe textual criticism. What is true however is that it is Protestant theologians and not Orthodox who look more into such textual critical issues. They would rather trust the liberal over the Orthodox. It is why the Protestants always feel it necessary to debate with textual critics like Bart Ehrman who finds it a breeze to do a ring around the rosy spinning the Protestant scholar by using textual criticism.

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The Orthodox responds to all this and says: so what, our faith does not depend on a specific manuscript but includes a wealth of Church history with traditions that were passed down from time immemorial. Some of the Church Fathers understood inerrancy (2) different from many modern Evangelicals while the Orthodox see the Bible and churchly tradition as one flowing stream in which the Gospel message remains truthfully conveyed through the work of the Spirit.

Folks like Ehrman would only debate textual criticism. While the Bible was inspired by God and written by the weak mind and the hand of man, the issue of the Bible then is simple; who can refute the miracles of God; Israel’s exile and return to the land, the Jew observing Passover promised forever, Christ’s Church with the gates of hell not prevailing against it, archeology unearthing biblical history, saints moving and shaking the mountains and twelve disciples who changed the world? Who is then Luther and Ehrman that we may serve the devil?

The case for God is to prove the brave from the coward. It would take me a few seconds to prove that  Ehrman uses exactly the method Muslims do which finds the sola-scripturist crowd as an easy-picking to deceive in order to have them denounce the deity of Christ. Such are the cowards and the heretics who use freedom-of-speech to only critique Christianity. Such freedom they use as the protector mother-bear while they love to do the sola-scripturists a ‘ring around the rosy’ because they know that such standards are the weakness of Islam and is why Ehrman would never apply the same textual criticism to Allah and the Quran because these are simply cowards. The “cowards” God says “will never inherit the Kingdom of God” (Revelation 21:8). The issue to ask is how did Ehrman fulfill what God promised regarding scoffers: they are cowards.

If the issue is the issue of truth, why not attack the Quran? While the secularist identifies with the world, he could never recognize the spiritual battle and is the reason for his downfall. It is crucial to know that the history of the Christian church did not start with Luther or Calvin or with the Hebraic Roots Movement or with the sola-scripturists. The Church was using virtually and exclusively the Greek, and not the Hebrew Bible. It was from the Greek translations that the Church derived everything and there is no need to read in the Hebrew language at Messianic synagogues or to insist on the Masoretic text, which throughout Christian history has never been enforced until Luther. So to link divine authority with Hebrew must answer as to why that the Almighty saw no sufficient reasons for the New Testament authors to write the gospels in Hebrew or even to use the Hebrew Masoretic Text for that matter?

Again, for the apostles to insist that Christian converts learn to recite anything in Hebrew is as ridiculous as insisting on circumcision for Christians. Christianity came to give the Gospel to all: Jew and Greek, black and white, man and woman, Aborigines and English. Equally ridiculous is to insist on using the Hebrew Masoretic Text, a text that came much later and was finalized centuries after the advent of Christianity and after the formation of the church itself. This especially when we also consider that the removal of deuterocanonical books, came form Rabbi Akiva who appointed the false-Messiah named Bar-Kochba over Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the very covenant on which that text was based.

Bar Kochba’s lineage in fact still exists in my old neck of the woods in Judea. While they live as “Palestinians” they themselves will tell you that they are Hebraic Roots (see 11:00):

These Muslim-Jews as well as modern Judaism’s following Jews all need Jesus Christ. Bar Kochba’s real name was Bar Kawkaba “son of the star” who was the one who made all this mess. Kochba or Qahhbeh, is also the word for “whore” in the collequal Arabic of that land. The Jews even at times call him Bar-Kozeiba (see video 11:00). Kozeiba is another Semitic word, which mean “a Lie” (3). To all who desire Hebraic roots I ask: must we believe The Lie instead of Jesus who was the Way, the Truth and the Life? Therefore, calling Him in the Greek Yesus, or in the Arabic Yasou’a or on the English Jesus or in the Hebrew ישוע, is not the significant issue here, the real issue here is that you — the Hebrew Roots advocate — do not yet know how to be as wise as serpents.

SOURCES

(1) A nineteenth century study of 275 New Testament passages by D. M. Turpie: concluded that the New Testament, the Septuagint and the Hebrew text all agree in only about 20% of the quotations. Of the 80% where some disagreement occurs between the Septuagint and the Hebrew Text that  fewer than 5% agree with the Hebrew against the Septuagint.

(2) Tertullian (AD 200) said, “Never mind if there does occur some variation in the order of the [gospel] narratives. What matters is that there is agreement in the essential doctrine of the Faith” (Against Marcion, IV:2). St. John Chrysostom (AD 390) was even bolder to suggest that contradictions in the gospels actually strengthen the conviction that Christianity is true. If the gospel authors agreed in every small detail, then it was obvious that the stories were forgeries by a group of dishonest early Christians in collusion with one another. He even says, “the discord which seems to be present in little matters shields [the authors] from every suspicion and vindicates the character of the writers” (Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, I:6).

Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE) emphasizes that inerrancy only applies to the original autograph copy as written in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek:

“For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it.”

(3) See the standard lexicon of rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic is Marcus Jastrow, A Dictionary of the Targumim, The Talmud Babli and Yershalmi, and the Midrashic Literature (New York/Berlin: Verlag Choreb and London: Shapiro Valentine & Co. 1926). The only meaning given for the Aramaic word Kazab in Jastrow is “falsehood”, and all examples cited by Jastrow from rabbinic literature have the meaning of lie, deception, or falsehood. In modern Hebrew, the usual meaning of kazab is “lie”, although it can also take the meaning of “disappointment.” But any attempt to translate “bar Kozeba” as “son of the disappointment” would be forcing a meaning from a modern language onto a similar word in a different language and from a different millennium.

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  • Jeff Benton

    Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!!
    Im going to make some Popcorn before I settle in for this one 🙂
    BRB…

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Almost better than opening day for college football.

      • Jeff Benton

        Much better in my view hehehe… I dont watch sports…

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I’ve been a sports fan since I was in 3rd grade, guess its in my bones.

  • Trevor

    Folks, it is not hard to see the Jewish root in Catholics and Orthodox mass. The repetitive use of prayers and recite of creed can easily be traced back to the giving and reading of the Law, just read the Pentateuch. The use of incense for prayers can easily be traced all the way back to God’s command to have a permanent incense before the Ark of Covenant.

    The cap that the Jews wore back in ancient time? The Catholics priests do the same. The ceremonial robe the high priest wore? You can see both the Catholics and Orthodox, although I would say the Orthodox are far more elaborate, do it today. The use of candle is not pagan. The idea that candle is pagan is so ridiculous it is laughable! How the heck were the apostles and eventually monks supposed to write in the late night when everyone was asleep!?

    The Eucharist is easily traced all the way back to the Law as well. The Passover meal were a foreshadow of Christ’s coming. The painting of a precious lamb’s blood on the lintel and doorpost were foreshadow of Christ’s shedding His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, the whipping post, on the way to Calvary, and finally on the Cross. The use of anointing oil? Found also in the ancient practice as well.

    Who told John the Baptist to baptize with water? No one was able to answer Jesus. Yet, Elijah commanded a leper into the Jordan River and to dunk himself into it seven time to be cleaned. Going further back, the Hebrews passing through the Red Sea were foreshadowing of water baptism.

    Why did God command that animal sacrifices were the only acceptable form to atone for sins? Because God had to make clothing to cover Adam and Eve from animals to atone for their sins.

    I love my Catholics and Orthodox brethren very much, and I love my Protestant ones as well. So please, folks, let’s unite against the force of darkness instead of throwing rocks at one another.

    • Eric

      Trevor, I agree. Over the past year, I have learned so, so much. As someone who comes from both a Catholic and Protestant heritage, I am eager to learn as much about Christianity as I can period. Second, I never understood the hostility between the two groups, as in my own family it never was an issue. So as you say, let us unite against evil as Brothers, regardless of our membership card.

      • Trevor

        I grew up in a Southern or Independent Baptist church most of my life. It wasn’t until I went to college I started attending a Charismatic Pentecostal church where I learned there was much more to the Holy Spirit and the gifts involved. The last church membership I was part of was a Foursquare Church, and it was similar to the Pentecost movement though it was founded by a woman back in the 1920s. That should have been red flag for me.

        Like you, I have been eager to learn the history and root of Christianity. It’s amazing to see the change in mindset I have as I begun to shift more easterly, toward Orthodox way of thinking.

        • Eric

          Same, Trevor. I have begun to shift more to an orthodox way of thinking as well. I’ve gone to a wonderful little Methodist church my whole life, but I don’t consider myself “Methodist” per se. I don’t even like to label myself as Protestant even. I simply try to learn as much as I can. Me and my family are already looking into Orthodox Churches should we ever need to leave down the road.

          • Trevor

            What is encouraging to me is the fact Protestants are reading the Church Fathers’ writings and discovering they have been fed half-truths.

          • Eric

            That is encouraging, Trevor. Luckily, I was never indoctrananated with anti-Calthloic things. Although my mom had some negative experiences with growing up Catholic (which is why she left after college), there was never any slander, ever. Growing up, I have nothing but a positive view of Catholics, since most of my mother’s family, and many of my friends are so. There is simply just some minor doctrinal disagreements, and they’re things that we don’t even bother discussing.

            As such, I was very surprised to learn there was all this tension between Catholics and Protestants when I first came here.

          • Trevor

            It was reading Comparative Theology by the late Coptic pope, Shenouda II, that got me going investigating the Catholics and Orthodoxy’s theology. Great read, if you are interested, http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf

          • Eric

            Thanks, Trevor. Will certainly read. 🙂

          • A Pope Senouda advocate. I also listen to Daud Lam’i but he is in Arabic.

          • Trevor

            What is a Protestant doing advocating Shendoua’s work?! The apocalypse is upon us!!!!

          • The world needs a lot more of Pope Shenouda’s work available in English. The Copts are terribly underrepresented in the West, though His Grace was fluent in English.

          • Woody

            So true…so much of EWTN (Catholic TV) and Steubenville University is made up of ex-protestants and in the lead. Julie 1 led me to view an ex-Baptist on U-tube who has been thru it all from So Baptist…on thru Anglicanism, and is he funny, great sense of humor. He said, he was so shocked when he entered a Catholic Church for the first time (something he had vowed he would never do) he was so overcome with a feeling of Reverence he wanted to drop down on his knees in adoration (Jesus being in the Tabernacle)

          • Trevor

            I know the feeling.

          • susan

            Exactly!! 🙂

        • Kamau41

          You and Eric have very compelling stories which adds great value to this forum.

          • Eric

            Thank You, Kamau. 🙂

          • Trevor

            But, but, according to Ed, I am part of the great apostasy for “always learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth!”

          • Grandmere

            Let the dead bury the dead.

          • Dave Knapp

            Only if you feed them brains…

          • susan

            Ed is riding his horse backwords. ;).

          • Woody

            Never; you have kept an open mind and why you are progressing, like John Henry Cardinal Newman

          • Trevor

            Wow, high praise coming from you to be put in a good company such as John Henry Cardinal Newman (whew, what a mouthful!).

          • Woody

            Yes, I love his Jesus prayer which Mother Teresa and her nuns said every morning before setting out to care for the poor.

        • Grandmere

          That’s good, as you know.

          • Trevor

            I love learning, especially history (usually military) and now theology. How I wish I wasn’t pursuing engineering and pursuing theology. Don’t care if I become poor. I want to be enriched by understanding God better.

          • Grandmere

            God bless you and your girls. You are a righteous man and I am blessed to call you my brother.

          • Trevor

            Righteous? Hardly.

            Thank you for the blessing, and you are a blessing to me as well.

        • Julie

          There is so so so much to learn and most of it never in this life…but the next…

        • You and Eric are impressing the heck out of me with your desire to dig into Church history. It’s a wonderful, endless well we swim in.

      • Rexlion

        Eric, as a former Catholic my main concern is in the way the Catholic Church treats salvation. They see initial receipt of saving grace at baptism (usually as an infant) followed by additional saving grace received via works (receiving Sacraments). Then if a mortal sin is committed, all saving grace is lost and the person must confess his sins to a priest and receive absolution conditioned upon the performance of works of penance (usually prayers).
        In contrast, the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith and not by works; moreover, those who try to earn saving grace through works place themselves under the curse of the law.
        If a person places his faith in his works of penance and of receiving Sacraments, his full faith is not in Jesus’ sacrifice as the one redemption for all sins. Not all Catholics believe strictly what their church teaches, which in this case is a good thing; but it is a dangerously slippery slope.
        Acts of penance were never mentioned until the writings of Tertullian, I believe in the early 3rd Century. The early Christians confessed their sins and were forgiven by God (1 John 1:9).

        • Eric

          Rexlion,

          I understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with a lot of Catholic doctrines upfront. At the same time, I am wishing to put aside any sort of biases I may have in order to examine things more closely. From what I understand, there’s a distinction between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, correct?

          I am merely open to learning, Rexlion. My mom is also a former Catholic, and had the same issues you did. Considering the Heresy that seems to be spreading rapidly in the Protestant churches at large, I have been looking for a possible escape route. My family and I currently go to a Methodist Church, and considering the liberal positions of that particular denomination, I’ve been looking into Orthodoxy in case we have to flee the coup.

          I’m simply trying to have a “Plan B” of sorts if we need someplace to go. Roman Catholicism isn’t what I’m suggesting: I’m leaning more toward Orthodoxy, and have been sharing that with my parents as I’ve learned more and more about Orthodoxy here.

          • Rexlion

            Eric, I have never been in an Orthodox Church but I did read up a bit recently about their version of confession. Keep in mind that I could be wrong about some of the details. I believe they don’t use a confessional but you are talking to the priest out in the open. Yet your confession is primarily targeted toward God. I don’t recall that they give an absolution. And penance is suggested for therapeutic value rather than for recovering one’s salvation.

            Here is a Greek Orthodox site with info on their doctrines, which may be helpful overall. This particular page is about salvation:

            http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-we-are-saved
            I think they still say some things (about works lending themselves to justification) that make me uneasy, but you see what you think.
            If you feel drawn to traditionalist type churches with a liturgy, then it’s hard to find a Protestant church like that which hasn’t started making too many compromises. If you are willing to consider a less liturgical worship style, I regard the Assemblies of God as scripturally sound.

          • Eric

            Rexlion, thank you so much for your help and information! I will consider and look over all that you have presented. I generally would feel awkward about confessing out in the open, but I suppose that is something one could get used to over time.

            As you mentioned, penance seems to be for more therapeutic value, which makes sense, and I would consider helpful. Confessing to someone, I’ve found, generally helps with the healing process of bigger things, and gets a weight off one’s shoulders. I’ve only done this with close family in the past, however. Doing it with someone I’m not anywhere near as close to would feel a little more nerve-racking. But there again, I suppose it’s something you get used to over time.

            Again, thank you SO MUCH for all your information! I will process and consider all of it carefully. God bless. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            ‘Scripturally sound’? Where are their Bishops? Where is their Apostolic Succession? Are ‘they’ the pillar and bulwark of truth? Can’t be, they’ve only been around for a hundred years or so.

          • Grandmere

            Well. a hundred years is ancient to some of these guys.

          • Dave Knapp

            None of those are scripturally sound…they are all man made catholic traditions supported by catholic warping of scripture…sorry Julie, but thanks for playing.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Why does the NT depict a sinner being given penance for sinning?

          • Rexlion

            Citation, please.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            “…Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst. I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced JUDGMENT on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus; when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” 1 Cor 5:2-5

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Checking with your Church for their interpretation?

          • Julie

            Nobody sat around reading the bible then either. They went to Mass, received the absolution for the forgiveness of their sins, heard the Liturgy of the Word, had a collect by the rich to help in alms for widows and the orphans, and then Holy Communion, made the vows not to lie or steal, not kill, and not commit adultery and then go home…every day there was Mass.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Why wasn’t Moses allowed to enter the promised land? Why did David’s child have to die for his sin? If you can’t see penance in the Bible, you must be blind. You can do penance for your sins here on earth, or you can suffer loss after death, and be saved by fire, per Paul,1 Cor 3:13-15

          • Rexlion

            1 Cor. 3:13-15 has nothing to do with penance.

            We all do works. Whether they will survive or be burned up depends not on the nature of the good work but upon the motivation. Works born of the power of the Holy Spirit and performed in love will be rewarded in heaven. Works done out of attempted self-righteousness will be burned up.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That’s a crock of an interpretation. Paul is speaking of purgatory – wood, hay, and stubble, are NOT works done in ‘attempted’ self-righteousness. Paul was the student of the brilliant Rabbi Gamaliel, grandson of Hillel – and the School of Hillel TAUGHT PURGATORY – Orthodox Jews believe in purgatory – it’s a Jewish/Christian ‘thing.’

          • Dave Knapp

            Purgatory is an invention…it does not exist…. Once again you Catholics twist scripture to suit your inventions

          • Julie LaBrecque

            When you’re singing 5 octaves over soprano, you’ll remember being warned.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Explain the prison that Jesus said we will go to if we don’t forgive our brother from our heart.

          • Woody

            Right which us why you are in Luther’s heresy. Part of the 7 books Luther removed from the Bible,2 Machabees, Chapter 12, Verse 46:

            “it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.”

            But again didn’t the famed Protestant Theologian, says dot listen to protestants for they are “Blind.” They do not follow Jesus–they follow a lowly defrocked Catholic priest.

          • Dave Knapp

            That did not make their teaching correct

          • Dave Knapp

            And again you rely on the traditions of men….

          • Julie

            Works…it is such a shallow and misconstrued understanding and application here to the point it has no meaning to the devout life.

          • Grandmere

            Sackcloth and ashes. We need that here in America.

          • Dave Knapp

            It happened because they were under the law…believers are not-/-but this is lost on uou

        • PaulF

          I’ve been receiving those sacraments you’re speaking about all my life Rexlion, and it has never even crossed my mind that I am receiving salvation from my own works or the rituals of the church. I’m receiving salvation from Christ, by the Blood of his sacrifice, through the church’s ministry.

          • Rexlion

            Wonderful! I’m glad to hear that your belief is correct.

          • Julie

            See refs to catechism above for Rexlion….

          • Julie

            He has been indoctrinated by the sects. I find mainline denominationals much more honest and objective.

          • Dave Knapp

            It all depends are on what or who your faith is in…

          • Dave Knapp

            Are you relying on faith in Jesus or faith in your reception of those sacraments via tradition? The answer to that makes all the difference…

          • PaulF

            Sure does. If your faith is in sinister spirits you will get sinister fruits. If your faith is in Christ you are in safe hands.

        • Julie

          What is so sad is that you never experienced Christ in the Church..Christ Who binds us. Otherwise we are tossed about and subject to all sorts of false doctrines.

          The sacraments…how an anyone call them works? The sacraments are the means the Lord continues to minister to us…as well as His Word so that we are not just nourished in Him intellectually, but our bodies, souls, our marriages, our healing from sin, our support in dying. To reduce my faith to just pondering text is so so limited and does not serve me as a human being.

          CCC1116? Sacraments are “powers that comes forth” from the Body of Christ (Luke 5:17; 6:19; 8:46, which are ever living and life giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in His Body, the Church. They are “the masterworks of God” in the new and everlasting covenant.

          Baptism is essentially our incorporation into the Body of Christ. All people who receive a Trinitarian baptism in the broadest sense are members of Christ’s universal church.

          Confirmation is being looked at again to be placed back with First Eucharist…Confirmation is the affirmation and sealing in Christ that we are giving our entire lives to Him and are willing to lay down our lives for Him….Confirmation deepens and seals us in the Holy Spirit.

          The sacraments come to us from the Lamb of God Who stands at the altar of God wounded but triumphant ministering to us from heaven…today the one event of Calvary.

          CCC1119, Forming “as it were, one mystical person” with Christ the head, the Church acts in the sacraments as “an organically structured priestly community.” Through Baptism and Confirmation the priestly people is enabled to celebrate the liturgy, while those of the faithful “who have received Holy Orders, are appointed to nourish the Church with the word and grace of God in the name of Christ’.

          Christ is the fulfillment of Melchizedek who prophesized the perpetual sacrifice of bread and wine…this being the Mass.

          The sacraments…that nourish us in Christ….it is Christ Who is working, not us. To say they are merely our works is…I don’t think you mean wrong…but this is the falsehood of the Evil One at work, the divider, the one who wants to destroy us.

          CCC1127. Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ Himself is at work: it is He who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayers of his Son’s Church, which, in the epiclesis of the sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. As fire transforms itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

          I think you should go online and see what the sacraments are, not that which denies the truth of what they are for us. You have been greatly misinformed and indoctrinated in that which does not place you deeply in Christ Himself.

          Keep you in prayers…………

          • Rexlion

            Julie, without a doubt one’s faith can be strengthened by receiving communion and by making confession. I do not believe that saving grace or any other ‘spiritual nourishment’ is dispensed in these.

            I forget exactly, but does the Catholic Church say that one must go to confession and receive communion at least once per year? Doing these things out of obligation, with the idea of receiving saving grace by fulfilling an obligatory act, is a dead work. Going to Mass out of obligation and out of fear for the consequence of losing one’s saving grace is also a dead work. A dead work is anything which one does to earn, or prevent the loss of, saving grace. Anything done out of love is alive, but anything done out of fear is dead. Consider the parable of the talents: the evil servant said, I feared you so I hid your talent.

            The idea that a loving God would toss you out of His family and withdraw His presence (Holy Spirit) from you for making one mistake is a repugnant idea to me. The Bible says that the believer has been justified, has been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Humans slip up all the time, but when God looks at us He does not see our faults any more because Jesus nailed them to the Cross. His shed blood covers *all* of our sins. Confession and repentance are important, but absolution was already granted by our high priest, Jesus Christ, once and for all.

            Even if one were to concede that doing obligatory acts for the purpose of gaining or keeping saving grace were not works of the law, there is still the matter of performing works of penance for the recovery of saving grace. Anyone who returns to works to bridge an imagined ‘gap’ between God and the sacrifice of Jesus is like the “foolish Galatians.”

            Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
            Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
            Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

            The Catholic Church has set itself up as the doorway through which saving grace is supposedly dispensed. They wish you to believe that you must obey the Church to be saved, you must receive their sacraments (not anyone else’s) to be saved, you must pay for your sins through penance and through purgatory’s suffering to be saved, etc. The Pope has set himself up as “Christ on earth.” But their is another doorway, a better doorway.

            john 10:7-9 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

            Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
            Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

            Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
            Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’ve bought in to the protestant lie, hook, line, and sinker. Paul, the great Paul, himself, said he forgave in the PERSON OF CHRIST. The Church, the real Church, is Jesus’ ‘Body’, and it has the power to bind and the power to loose – yes, they can throw someone out, and yes, they can forgive or NOT to forgive sin – which is loss of salvation.

          • susan

            Another pearl Julie. Thank you :). What they choose to do with it will be upon their own head. Hopefully they’re not all swine.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Willful ignorance.

          • Dave Knapp

            Sad that you do not recognize the Protestant lie, as you call it , is actually THE truth…..as things stand now with you, you will rep the ultimate consequence of Matthew 7..

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Protests didn’t even exist til Luther showed up – you are his.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Protestantism is heresy.

          • Dave Knapp

            Ps the REAL church is NOT the catholic which was formed by Constantine in 313 to unite the Roman Empire at that time–which meant he took whatever parts of Christianity he desired or found convenient and mashed them together with various forms of roman paganism….,THAT is where the catholic so called church really began….

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Have another drink.

          • Julie

            How old are you? The Catholic Church was already in Rome hundreds of years before Constantine…now you should find out more…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Where is your documentation? Guess you have never read Church History. St. Ignatius calls the Church the Catholic Church in AD 107.

          • Woody

            Yes, he has no historical education; if her were to read even the early Church Father, Eusebius History of the Church, he would know the first 29 Popes beginning with Peter were martyred, all the way up to Constantine (who was a pagan) until his death bed; his Mother, St Helena found the True Cross of Jesus. [this is why uneducated people cannot even “google” which even a seven year old can do. That is what prejudice does to one.

          • Dave Knapp

            Btw, Catholicism likes to hijack and twist scripture to support its invented man made traditions…. I can’t help but notice this…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’re drunk.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            How so? What do you do with the litany of documents that state almost ALL of our beliefs before the Scriptures were even Canonized?

          • Dave Knapp

            If the great Paul was around today, he would be writing AGAINST Catholicism…..for that, you would declare him protestant

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Paul would first pronounce judgment and then assign penance for you, and if lucky, would then let you back in the fold.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Your putative Protestant Paul sounds like a rabid Catholic – he turned over a sinner to suffer for what he had done, then later loosed the sinner from his sin.

          • Julie

            A dead work is totally irrelevant to one atleast going to confession once a year.

            I think you have spent more time in your organization learning the misconceptions by compromised sources rather than going to the source of our faith as well as the references to the early Church.

          • Julie

            You are denying how the Church lived out its faith…the Mass was the life of the Christians and still is.

          • Dave Knapp

            Nope

          • Julie

            nope

          • Michael Clarke

            “the Mass was the life of the Christians and still is.” How very false a statement is this! The Mass is communal prayer to the King of the Universe, which Y’shua (Jesus) Himself admonished His Disciples NOT to take part in. Y’shua said prayer is a private matter between the one who is praying and God Almighty. Catholics take an interactive part in the Mass by reciting litanies. This is a pagan ritual. Y’shua admonished His Disciples NOT to say prayers by wrot and NOT in long and or repetitive prayers.

          • Julie

            I would further add, we center our lives on The Word Made Flesh…the Incarnation….the fulfillment of the feast of life and the feast of Abraham in the Jewish calendar.

            Jesus in the Eucharist…how can you compare the Living Word of God made Flesh in the Eucharist where we receive Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity to other people’s interpretation of what is true faith and church?

            There is no comparison. There are no liturgies within Protestantism.

          • Grandmere

            Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to not be Protestant. I love liturgy!

          • Julie

            Worship is a room with no sacred images, nothing to connect us to the OT, to keep this continuity of faith and worship, a preacher up giving his individual or sectarian take, people singing hymns, opening of their bibles…it tends to place people in the present moment with no past or future. No weekday Mass where they can also learn about the saints of old and the times they lived in who are the counter point to people of faith in the OT. So many times as they have no saints, they can only draw on figures of the OT…very sad.

          • Dave Knapp

            I thank The Lord I’m not catholic…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You’ll be singing a different tune at judgment day.

          • Julie

            You know Dave…I spend no time at all on Protestant sites. I really don’t, and you should re consider what is motivating you to spend your time behaving as you do. It is very childish, it is not saying anything positive…I should say, demonstrating any Christian spirit…you are also demonstrating such topics are way over your head, you are not proving anything…and you are not gaining any thing here with your time, and most of all, with your life.

            You should instead think of serving the Lord…pray to Him, see how He directs you…..every moment of our life God gives us is sacred…we all need to use our time wisely and that is pleasing to Him.

            There is so much bad going on in this world….if you say you are Christian, then using it in fasting and praying for all the people suffering now because of what is happening everywhere. Judgment is coming.

          • Julie

            Christ’s yoke is light easy….and there are people out there far from confessionals….again…you have to look at the early church and not protestant protest. I get tired listening to the protests and cherry picking at times…sorry that I do to you…

          • Grandmere

            When you go to work in the morning, do you not do it out of love for your family? Are you not doing it out of obedience to God to provide for your family? We are to do the works of our Father out of our love for him.

          • Dave Knapp

            But your works will not save you

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No works – no heaven.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          “If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards… They discipline us for a short time as seemed right to them, but de does so for our benefit, in order that we may share in his holiness. As the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it…Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:8-14

          • Grandmere

            They hate that word, “strive”.

          • theophorus

            And ‘work out’ isn’t well received either:

            Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

            The book of Hebrews(which I hated as a protestant)

            Also the entire book of James.

            Revelation speaks of ‘overcomers’.

            And on and on.

          • susan

            That is one of my favorite/fearful verses. These verses should be pondered. They are speed bumps and we treat them as a German autobahn.

          • An aside as to how we see salvation: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU

          • Trevor

            Do you have anything that I could read? I enjoy reading things from an Orthodoxy’s perspective.

          • Starts with “the Orthodox Way” by Kallistos Ware.

          • Trevor

            A book wasn’t what I was looking for. I meant an article. Oh well, off to the Internet go I.

          • I’m going to see if I can find some good PDFs especially for you, Trevor. You actually love tearing through this stuff, so that will be a pleasure.

          • Trevor

            Never mind, I found the website by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. 🙂 I remember vising that site many time in the past.

          • Julie

            Oh…Seattle Pacific is a school that teaches that the Protestants focus on the Word of God and Catholics focus on His Person…wonder now what they teach today……….atleast we are not the great whxxx church.

          • Grandmere

            Here is the hymn, a favorite of Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican , performed by the choir of King’s College in Oxford. Enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T5WWy-uk0U

          • Lovely!

          • Dave Knapp

            You hated them because you never understood what they really meant…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Because they think salvation is easy – just believe – their magic bullet.

          • Dave Knapp

            You are so lost…

          • Kamau41

            Yet that is the KEY!

        • Julie

          Again…you do not know what the sacraments are or how Christ works through them to minister to us.

          The Mass has been said since the beginnings…and the beginning of Mass is where all ordinary sins are forgiven, now these days, called the ‘confiteor’ or penitential rite.

          If we were saved and redeemed by Christ we would no longer sin. But we do…and we must be free of mortal sin to receive Holy Communion.

          The Church is likewise self reforming and learns….but the Holy Eucharist has been the summit of our faith for 2,000 years…truly consistent practice and discipline in approaching the Eucharist.

          The sacraments were gradually developed.

          In Luke 3:13….do penance for the remission of sins unless ye likewise perish.

          In earliest times, Christians lived under constant fear of death. They confessed their sins to the Church and were given severe penances, not being able to partake in the Eucharist, some not for a long time.

          The sacrament of penance, confession was developed more after the ceasing of persecutions and Christianity was then legal.

          The Church was given the power to forgive sins on the evening of the resurrection when Christ appeared to them and gave the apostles the power to forgive sins…this is a point so many times overlooked by those who cannot accept the sacrament of penance.

        • Woody

          Again, you don’t sound like an ex-Catholic; Catholic’s follow both Faith and Works and a great Apostle James who is right when he said, “Faith without works is “dead.” (Luther rejected Jame and Luther was nothing; talk about arrogance-him correcting an Apostle yet) All true Catholics believe ALL THAT JESUS Church teaches for Jesus is GOD and does not lie. You can see heretical statements in this very post. Penance and confession was here from the first:

          “Whose sins ye shall forgiven them, they ARE forgiven; whose sins ye shall retain they are RETAINED.” Jesus granting the Apostles the Sacrament to “forgive or not to forgive sins” in His name. Pretty clear. The only way this distinction can be made is for SOMEONE to HEAR the sins. Pretty obvious, and I have been on both ends of it.

          Other Scripture pointing to “confession.”

          Is Confession in Scripture?

          Tim Staples

          March 28, 2014 | 56 comments

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          The Lord declares in Isaiah 43:25:

          I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

          Psalm 103:2-3 adds:

          Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases…

          Many will use these verses against the idea of confession to a priest. God forgiving sins, they will claim, precludes the possibility of there being a priest who forgives sins. Further, Hebrews 3:1 and 7:22-27 tell us Jesus is, “the… high priest of our confession” and that there are not “many priests,” but one in the New Testament—Jesus Christ. Moreover, if Jesus is the “one mediator between God and men” (I Tim. 2:5), how can Catholics reasonably claim priests act in the role of mediator in the Sacrament of Confession?

          BEGINNING WITH THE OLD

          The Catholic Church acknowledges what Scripture unequivocally declares: it is God who forgives our sins. But that is not the end of the story. Leviticus 19:20-22 is equally unequivocal:

          If a man lies carnally with a woman… they shall not be put to death… But he shall bring a guilt offering for himself to the Lord… And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.

          Apparently, a priest being used as God’s instrument of forgiveness did not somehow take away from the fact that it was God who did the forgiving. God was the first cause of the forgiveness; the priest was the secondary, or instrumental cause. Thus, God being the forgiver of sins in Isaiah 43:25 and Psalm 103:3 in no way eliminates the possibility of there being a ministerial priesthood established by God to communicate his forgiveness.

          OUT WITH THE OLD

          Many Protestants will concede the point of priests acting as mediators of forgiveness in the Old Testament. “However,” they will claim, “The people of God had priests in the Old Testament. Jesus is our only priest in the New Testament.” The question is: could it be that “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) did something similar to that which he did, as God, in the Old Testament? Could he have established a priesthood to mediate his forgiveness in the New Testament?

          IN WITH THE NEW

          Just as God empowered his priests to be instruments of forgiveness in the Old Testament, the God/man Jesus Christ delegated authority to his New Testament ministers to act as mediators of reconciliation as well. Jesus made this remarkably clear in John 20:21-23:

          Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

          Having been raised from the dead, our Lord was here commissioning his apostles to carry on with his work just before he was to ascend to heaven. “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” What did the Father send Jesus to do? All Christians agree he sent Christ to be the one true mediator between God and men. As such, Christ was to infallibly proclaim the Gospel (cf. Luke 4:16-21), reign supreme as King of kings and Lord of lords (cf. Rev. 19:16); and especially, he was to redeem the world through the forgiveness of sins (cf. I Peter 2:21-25, Mark 2:5-10).

          The New Testament makes very clear that Christ sent the apostles and their successors to carry on this same mission. To proclaim the gospel with the authority of Christ (cf. Matthew 28:18-20), to govern the Church in His stead (cf. Luke 22:29-30), and to sanctify her through the sacraments, especially the Eucharist (cf. John 6:54, I Cor. 11:24-29) and for our purpose here, Confession.

          John 20:22-23 is nothing more than Jesus emphasizing one essential aspect of the priestly ministry of the apostles: To Forgive men’s sins in the person of Christ— “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained.” Moreover, auricular confession is strongly implied here. The only way the apostles could either forgive or retain sins is by first hearing those sins confessed, and then making a judgment whether or not the penitent should be absolved.

          TO FORGIVE OR TO PROCLAIM?

          Many Protestants and various quasi-Christian sects claim John 20:23 must be viewed as Christ simply repeating “the great commission” of Matthew 28:19 and Luke 24:47 using different words that mean the same thing:

          Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

          … and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations…

          Commenting on John 20:23 in his book, Romanism—The Relentless Roman Catholic Assault on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! (White Horse Publications, Huntsville Alabama, 1995), p. 100, Protestant Apologist Robert Zins writes:

          It is apparent that the commission to evangelize is tightly woven into the commission to proclaim forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus Christ.

          Mr. Zin’s claim is that John 20:23 is not saying the apostles would forgive sins; rather, that they would merely proclaim the forgiveness of sins. The only problem with this theory is it runs head-on into the text of John 20. “If you forgive the sins of any… if you retain the sins of any.” The text cannot say it any clearer: this is more than a mere proclamation of the forgiveness of sins—this “commission” of the Lord communicates the power to actually forgive the sins themselves.

          FREQUENT CONFESSION

          The next question for many upon seeing the plain words of St. John is, “Why don’t we hear any more about Confession to a priest in the rest of the New Testament?” The fact is: we don’t need to. How many times does God have to tell us something before we’ll believe it? He only gave us the proper form for baptism once (Matt. 28:19), and yet all Christians accept this teaching.

          But be that as it may, there are multiple texts that deal with Confession and the forgiveness of sins through the New Covenant minister. I will cite just a few of them:

          II Cor. 2:10:

          And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ (DRV).

          Many may respond to this text by quoting modern Bible translations, e.g., the RSVCE:

          What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ (emphasis added).

          St. Paul, it is argued, is simply forgiving someone in the way any layperson can forgive someone for wrongs committed against him. The Greek word—prosopon—can be translated either way. And I should note here that good Catholics will argue this point as well. This is an understandable and valid objection. However, I do not concur with it for four reasons:

          1. Not only the Douay-Rheims, but the King James Version of the Bible—which no one would accuse of being a Catholic translation—translates prosopon as “person.”

          2. The early Christians, who spoke and wrote in Koine Greek, at the Councils of Ephesus (AD 431) and Chalcedon (AD 451), used prosopon to refer to the “person” of Jesus Christ.

          3. Even if one translates the text as St. Paul pardoning “in the presence of Christ,” the context still seems to indicate that he forgave the sins of others. And notice: St. Paul specifically said he was not forgiving anyone for offenses committed against him (see II Cor. 2:5). Any Christian can and must do this. He said he did the forgiving “for [the Corinthian’s] sakes” and “in the person (or presence) of Christ.” The context seems to indicate he is forgiving sins that do not involve him personally.

          4. Just three chapters later, St. Paul gives us the reason why he could forgive the sins of others: “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation” (II Cor. 5:18). Some will argue that “the ministry of reconciliation” of verse 18 is identical to “the message of reconciliation” in verse 19. In other words, St. Paul is simply referring to a declarative power here. I don’t agree. I argue St. Paul uses distinct terms precisely because he is referring to more than just “the message of reconciliation,” but the same ministry of reconciliation that was Christ’s. Christ did more than just preach a message; he also forgave sins. Catholics also call the Sacrament of Penance, that of “Reconciliation.”

          James 5:14-17:

          Is any one among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. [Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.] The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain… and… it did not rain…

          When it comes to one “suffering;” St. James says, “Let him pray.” “Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.” But when it comes to sickness and personal sins, he tells his readers they must go to the “elders”—not just anyone—in order to receive this “anointing” and the forgiveness of sins.

          Some will object and point out that verse 16 says to confess our sins “to one another” and pray “for one another.” Is not James just encouraging us to confess our sins to a close friend so we can help one another to overcome our faults?

          The context seems to disagree with this interpretation for two main reasons:

          1. St. James had just told us to go to the presbyter in verse 14 for healing and the forgiveness of sins. Then, verse 16 begins with the word therefore—a conjunction that would seem to connect verse 16 back to verses 14 and 15. The context seems to point to the “elder” as the one to whom we confess our sins.

          2. Ephesians 5:21 employs this same phrase. “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.” But the context limits the meaning of “to one another” specifically to a man and wife—not just anyone. Similarly, the context of James 5 would seem to limit the confession of faults “to one another” to the specific relationship between “anyone” and the “elder” or “priest” (Gr.—presbuteros).

          ONE PRIEST OR MANY?

          A major obstacle to Confession for many Protestants (me included when I was Protestant) is that it presupposes a priesthood. As I said above, Jesus is referred to in Scripture as “the apostle and high priest of our confession.” The former priests were many in number, as Hebrews 7:23 says, now we have one priest—Jesus Christ. The question is: how does the idea of priests and confession fit in here? Is there one priest or are there many?

          I Peter 2:5-9 gives us some insight:

          … and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ… But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people…

          If Jesus is the one and only priest in the New Testament in a strict sense, then we have a contradiction in Sacred Scripture. This, of course, is absurd. I Peter plainly teaches all believers to be members of a holy priesthood. Priest/believers do not take away from Christ’s unique priesthood, rather, as members of his body they establish it on earth.

          FULL AND ACTIVE PARTICIPATION

          If one understands the very Catholic and very biblical notion of participatio, these problematic texts and others become relatively easy to understand. Yes, Jesus Christ is the “one mediator between God and men” just as I Tim. 2:5 says. The Bible is clear. Yet, Christians are also called to be mediators in Christ. When we intercede for one another or share the Gospel with someone, we act as mediators of God’s love and grace in the one true mediator, Christ Jesus, via the gift of participatio in Christ, the sole mediator between God and men (see I Timothy 2:1-7, I Timothy 4:16, Romans 10:9-14). All Christians, in some sense, can say with St. Paul, “…it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me…” (Gal. 2:20)

          PRIESTS AMONG PRIESTS

          If all Christians are priests, then why do Catholics claim a ministerial priesthood essentially distinct from the universal priesthood? The answer is: God willed to call out a special priesthood among the universal priesthood to minister to his people. This concept is literally as old as Moses.

          When St. Peter taught us about the universal priesthood of all believers, he specifically referred to Exodus 19:6 where God alluded to ancient Israel as “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” St. Peter reminds us that there was a universal priesthood among the Old Testament people of God just as in the New Testament. But this did not preclude the existence of a ministerial priesthood within that universal priesthood (see Exodus 19:22, Exodus 28, and Numbers 3:1-12).

          In an analogous way, we have a universal “Royal Priesthood” in the New Testament, but we also have an ordained clergy who have priestly authority given to them by Christ to carry out his ministry of reconciliation as we have seen.

          TRULY AWESOME AUTHORITY

          A final couple of texts we will consider are Matt. 16:19 and 18:18. Specifically, we’ll examine the words of Christ to Peter and the apostles: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” As CCC 553 says, Christ here communicated not only authority “to pronounce doctrinal judgments, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church,” but also “the authority to absolve sins” to the apostles.

          These words are unsettling, even disturbing, to many. And understandably so. How could God give such authority to men? And yet he does. Jesus Christ, who alone has the power to open and shut heaven to men, clearly communicated this authority to the apostles and their successors. This is what the forgiveness of sins is all about: to reconcile men and women with their heavenly Father. CCC 1445 puts it succinctly:

          The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

          SEE WHAT WONDERFUL PROTESTANTS JESUS IS RETURNING TO HIS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH

          Tim Staples is Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers, but he was not always Catholic. Tim was raised a Southern Baptist. Although he fell away from the faith of his childhood, Tim came back to faith in Christ during his late teen years through the witness of Christian…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Tim was later an Assembly of God pastor.

          • Rexlion

            Woody, there is enough evidence in the Bible to lead some people to reasonably believe that confession should be made to priests. However, I don’t find the evidence so overwhelming as to make it the only confession methodology that’s acceptable to God. Since I believe that God hears my prayers and God forgives my sins, I will confess my sins to God (scrupulously avoiding acts of penance, which I believe to be ineffective payment for sins) and skip the middle-man. You’re welcome to follow your conscience, as will I.

            I would like to suggest a book that’s available for free on Google Play, written in 1896 by a historian and Doctor of Laws named Henry Charles Lea. It’s called “Confession and Absolution.” Mr. Lea wished to avoid accusations of bias in his historical work, so he was careful to utilize only the documents and writings of the Catholic Church and the early church fathers (which, I’m sure you would say, are one and the same). The book cuts both ways; many things in the historical record make a strong case for Catholicism, while many facts reveal its ‘feet of clay,’ as it were. I was not a boring tome, either.

        • Woody

          All of Jesus (God’s) Commandments must be observed, not just the ones we like and reject the ones we dislike.
          What is it unclear of Jesus saying to the Apostles (the First Bishops) “Whose sins you shall forgive they ARE forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain the ARE retained” (not forgiven).
          Note that Jesus allows for both “forgiving” and NOT “forgiving.” The only way this “distinction can be made is for SOMEONE TO HEAR THE SINS.

          You were a poor Catholic by your above understanding. All sins are for given by GOD – the priest forgives in PERSONA CHRISTI as commanded by HIS Words establishing Jesus’ Sacrament of Penance as above (Confession), the second greatest Gift Jesus bestowed on His Church (the first is His Own Body and Blood) If the angels would be jealous of anything of humans it would be that they cannot receive His Body and Blood.

          One is NOT a Catholic unless he believes ALL that Jesus One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches. (all that are matters of doctrine.. e.g., (not what one should wear to church)

          But you “protestanized” wonderfully, learning quickly how to pluck the verses which support your errors,while denying others despite St Paul telling “Timothy” to “listen to the bulwark and foundation of Truth–the Church (note not scripture)

    • Julie

      Greatly appreciate your remarks here, Trevor…you are coming to encounter the sacred among us….we unworthy…

      • Trevor

        I am just as unworthy.

    • theophorus

      I remember the first time I read John 6. I mean really read it, instead of scanning over it wondering ‘what is Jesus on about here?’ and skipping ahead.

      Straight from the king james:

      Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat
      the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in
      you.

      “Weird” I thought. “It’s almost like the Catholics are right.”

      • Julie LaBrecque

        The belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, as attested to by Christ’s own words, has always been believed and is well attested to in all the writings of the Church Fathers. Google the Miracle of Lanciano – and Miracle of Buenos Aires.

      • Catbr

        They are right.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Read later post of his, he converted.

          • Catbr

            Yes I saw that later on.

      • Dave Knapp

        Complete misinterpretation….

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Very well written, I can only add/amend your statement about the Eucharist – it goes back as far as the Garden of Eden: “…lest he put forth his hand and take also of the Tree of Life and eat of it and live forever.” Gen 3:22 “…whoever eats this bread will live forever.” John 6;58. Only two places in Scripture that state you can eat something and live forever.

      • Julie

        Amen to that..I just saw the picture of this huge wood tree artwork at the Vatican and an anti Catholic remark about what is that weird thing today on internet…

        It is an artistic rendering of the Tree of Life at the Vatican and I saw pictures of JPII there meeting people….The Tree of Life is the tree that is made alive through the tree of the Cross, and the fruit it bears is the Eucharist…fulfilling our need to consume to become divine.

      • Trevor

        Don’t forget a third place – Revelation 2:7, a letter to the church of Ephesus.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Isaiah 25:6-7, Rev 3:20, Malachi 1:11

    • Kamau41

      Excellent job and very accurately written Trevor.

      • Trevor

        Thank you.

    • Grandmere

      The nuclear fusion is coming. Unlimited, pure, clean power.

    • Kelly ann

      Your very much right this throwing rocks another trick of the devil. All of this is the forces of principals and powers we have to fight against The church is preparing to defend against the darkness, here’s one way the church is doing this. You may find this very interesting the spiritual roots go back to the battle of lapanto. The church knows we are running out of time, so a urgent call this year has been given by our Good Cardinal Burke, as we can’t afford to wait for the Pope at this time, as he is more focused on other concerns of ecumenism and open dialogue. I only share this with you so you can see what we are doing in the church, and give you some encouragement. It’s time for prayer and worship and begging Gods mercy, not bickering. Its time to obey the first commandment Our Lord gave, and get the focus off people and their opinions, the second commandment comes second. We don’t have the time to be in open dialogue with slanderers.

      The battle belongs to the Lord!

      http://holyleague.com

      • Trevor

        You are telling me I am throwing rocks because I am explaining why I see Jewish roots in mass?

        Shaking my head here.

        • Julie

          I did this to Woody….I didn’t use the line thing you just did, though.

        • Kelly ann

          Lol, that’s Ok , your forgiven , yes your right concerning the Jewish roots in our Mass as well it has always been there part of our culture and our religion, The Old Testament is the precursor to the New Testament. Our Lord fulfilled the law., and inherited his kingdom , the kingdom of David sets up the foundation of the kingdom that Our Lord inherits and perfects , the Angel Gabriel told this to The Blessed Virgin, that the Lord God will give him the throne of David His father. The law was set in place to prepare for his coming to save us. It’s that simple.most of what you will find in the rites of the catholic mass, you will find a relation to it in the old testament. God is very ceremonial, He seems to like ceremonies that honor and worship Him, After all he’s a jealous God , and he deserves the very best we have to offer him, even though it’s not worthy, but it’s the best we have and we have to make do. It’s all to give him Glory and I’m sure over the past 2000 years dressing Priest in the very best to serve him at the alter, as the Levi priest dressed in jewelled garments isn’t an offence, and our lovey decorations splattered all over his houses to glorify him on this planet, as the Jewish temple was adorned in gold and jewels has never offended him in any way, if it did he would have destroyed the church long ago, and we wouldn’t be catholic today. They say that the Jewish temple was marvellous to look upon.

          Speaking of Jews , this past Sunday , a Jew (old gentlemen ) attended the mass and converted . well he nearly made me weep, his sorrow was so resounding, he nearly took up all the time in the confessional, can you imagine how He must be feeling about Our Lord? Gosh my heart was bleeding for him. He received the Blessed sacrament , still had his Jewish shaw and covered his head along with us traditional women folk lol.

    • jim gazay

      True Trev

  • Tom_mcewen

    Lookout the window before you go out in the dark there will be torches and pitchforks and a lot of screaming.

    • Catbr

      Ha.

    • Kamau41

      They are coming out big time out of the woodwork.

  • Countryflowers

    You wrote a book Walid……….God DID NOT set the Pope up. The Catholic Church has through history hindered the work of God…who so ever will, come…….the Popes tried to keep everyone BLIND to God’s word so they could control the people. Even going as far as murdering people who wanted bibles to read for theirselves. God said He freely gave it to us and we were to FREELY give it to others. Not keep people in the dark to the truth of His word.

    • Can you folks write something else besides repeating a mantra?

      “The Catholic Church has through history hindered the work of God”

      Then you must name from the first century to the sixteenth, thousands who DID the work of God? Start naming. Yet you can’t and you won’t. Guaranteed.

      • Countryflowers

        God’s church was persecuted by the Catholic Church in the first to the sixteenth century more then any other people alive at that time. Walid you can’t change history.

        • Catbr

          What was God’s church and what was the catholic church according to you? Where is the proof of this other God’s church from the 1st to 16th century? Where is the historical lineage to the present day of this other God’s church?

          • Countryflowers

            God has always had a people that keep his word going forth to sinners.

          • Catbr

            Ha ha ha. That’s a good answer. There’s some good historical evidence of this 1st century God’s church for us. Heretic.

          • Countryflowers

            That’s the problem with the Catholic Church and other cults ….they are think they are the one and only true Christians. Even calling others. “Heretic”.

          • Catbr

            The only one slinging names around here is you, an obvious self righteous protestant which is why I posted my comment about the venomous hatred from protestants. You like to have the focus on yourself which is why you do this, for attention. Instead of being full of the holy spirit you are full of something else.

          • DeusLoVult

            That post is now pending. But the answer to the question you pose, on why Protestants hate Catholics so much, is simple. They are taught that they have been wronged grievously by Catholics. (Inquisition, etc.) It’s sad.

          • Countryflowers

            “It’s sad” but true. They murdered many Jew during the Inquisition

          • DeusLoVult

            Another poor soul ignorant of history…PLEASE read.

            http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/madden/03481.html

          • Countryflowers

            And you are showing the love of God ? There is no hate in me for Catholics. But history of their persecution of people who just wanted bibles for their self is written for all to read.

          • Catbr

            Next. This country thread is done.

          • Grandmere

            Which Bible? Which Gospel? The Gnostic Gospels? Is that what you would have wanted to spread throughout the world? Old heresies are coming around again.

          • Grandmere

            They are always the ones to “throw the first stone”. Some things never change.

          • Stephen Dalton

            Yeah, they throw the first stone, and then they bawl that we hurt them!

          • Maria

            Never knew that Countryflowers was the true church.

          • Julie

            Heretic is someone actively promoting falsehoods of Christ.
            The Church considers all with Trinitarian baptism as separated Christians…but as our separated brethren…I would say a step up in comparison to yours.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you in a cult?

          • Are the Jews “a cult” Country Flowers?

          • Kamau41

            Why are you calling the Catholic Church a cult? You definitely have forgotten who wrote the Bible.

          • Julie

            Get a catechism…2,865 doctrines…all laid down clearly and with reason and references to Scripture, etc…….

            Trust in God to protect you from any false teaching you think may be in it….do not be afraid…check out the Catholic catechism on line.

          • Countryflowers

            I love to watch Jack Van Impee and he reads the catechism. My son’s girlfriend is Catholic so maybe I should learn more.

          • Maria

            That would be Countryflowers. Where can I find the Countryflowers Bible interpretation?

          • DeusLoVult

            I wouldn’t ask that, my lady, you might get your wish. Next thing you know, it will be circulating on the market. 🙂

          • Dang it Deus Lo Vult. This was me who put that comment when my wife was moderating comments and your calling me “my lady”. Just think of the type of rumors they can start now.

          • DeusLoVult

            Sir, I apologized for that, at the first comment you posted to me. I’m terribly sorry. Well, you know what they say…..if at first you don’t succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. 🙂

          • It was no big deal, just very funny 😉 it was my fault.

          • Grandmere

            You are killing me right now. It is early and you just made my day! My best to the Lady Maria!

          • Jennifer

            Is your wife Maria…so thankful for the both of you and Ted too.

          • Grandmere

            On a shelf right next to the Edwitness interpretation, which is next to the Rob Bell interpretation.

          • Julie

            So are you from CARM?? They deleted my post and put me on probation when I gave them material on St. Justin the Martyr.

          • Countryflowers

            CARM what’s that

          • Julie

            Westminster group.

          • You will never be blocked from here Julie and neither will Country Flowers regardless of how many time she makes little sense. We still love the Country and the Flowers.

          • Julie

            CARM is a site I would not recommend as well…it is very toxic and they hit people so unkindly..after my posting was deleted…because of the animosity, never went back. We are advised not to go there from Catholic Answers because it is so hurtful and biased.

            Yes…I was happy she asked me a question so I gave her a little…but now will scroll down to find her actual response.

          • Shoebat.com beats them. You can look it up on Alexa. Funny how folks come here every day and say that we are “finished” when we haven’t even started. Wish that this group here gets together and contribute instead of just comment. Many of you have talent. We can all share and post articles at Shoebat.com. This way we can be a strong cord.

          • Julie

            They have been misguided for generations. As I said before, we have the most fragmented Christianity in the world, although Christians make up the greatest voting bloc. Michael Savage noted that but couldn’t understand why it was so.

            Divisions destroy the faith and prevent us from fighting error and evil.

            Anyway, appreciate all your work…we are all in a lifelong conversion and any pope would say the same. (If a pope goes against faith and morals, then he is labelled anti pope and given the boot.)

            You will be drawing people to this article for some time.

          • Julie

            Thanks again…am so limited…I am here…and the dogs come in and run around…two boys downstairs here…in and out…am working at my age…very busy with 2 year old boy…and working to get parents to return to Church….and waiting for pastor to give new directives at our long dissenting parish. He is former vocations director…spot on and grew up in ghetto and very funny.

            I would like to have a Catholic Answers on our parish web page…such a disconnect with adult ed people so far…People are very upset by all the stuff put out here..these are Asians…foreign born…and feel such insult to the sacredness of our faith…

            I worked with very poor people so explain things in way that simplifies for them, not like some of others who can go into alot more detail. Mine was foundational as I said…addressing errors…so we had to constantly consult the catechism…and councils…

          • Grandmere

            So true, Chef. We need the food fight as well as the love fest. It makes the family more interesting.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Well, shock, you got something right here. What you won’t admit or get right, is that these people who kept HIs word going forth were Catholics.

          • Grandmere

            And from the very beginning there were heretics too.

          • Countryflowers

            Where is your proof that there was no other church

          • Catbr

            Still no proof.

          • Countryflowers

            No proof from you either

          • Catbr

            No only thousands of historical catholic books in print from shortly after the death of Christ which you deny foolishly.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            YOU need to prove with evidence that there was another Church.

          • Kamau41

            There is no way she can or will. Instead, she has decided to go out screaming.

          • Grandmere

            SNAP. She can’t. All the evidence shows only heretics leading people away from the church for the same reason they do today.

          • This is as dumb as it gets. It is like asking: show me proof that there are no aliens. Therefore, there must be aliens. Good grief Country Flowers. You’ve been here long enough to learn that such logic in nonsense.

          • Grandmere

            There is evidence that heretics were enticing people with false teaching. But they were never part of the church. Don’t you get that?

          • Stephen Dalton

            Read the Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. You will see there was only the Catholic Church and heretics.

          • Countryflowers

            I would bet the “other” churches called Catholics the “heretics.

          • Stephen Dalton

            The real heretics (like the ones you support) always call the real Christians what they actually are.

          • Julie

            How could they survive by themselves? How did they document?…

          • Maria

            “What was God’s church”

            It was called the Country Flowers Church.

          • Catbr

            lol

          • Julie

            She is coming across as an old lady from CARM…I read about them on Catholic Answers…people being advised not to go to it to give them any publicity…one Baptist friend went on to tell them we were not what she had been taught to believe and they called her a Catholic mole. She left the Baptist Church..still in process becoming Catholic.

          • Grandmere

            And it was established 100 years ago in a tent in Alabama.

        • Jeff Benton

          Country Flowers, this statement is wrong, and I am calling you out on it… Name one “God’s Church” that was persecuted by the Catholics from the 1st to the 16th centuries…
          You can only be referring to Gnostics or some such… and if that is the case, you are in terrible error…

          • Countryflowers

            There were church’s other then Catholic. But I meant to say ..,Gods people.

          • Julie

            What were their names?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Did this ‘ghost’ Church use the Catholic Bible? If so, why not one of their own making?

          • Julie

            They must have had tons of sheep, tons of them…all over Christiandom, 342 per household to make their own bibles.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Replete with monasteries full of monks making copies.

          • Tom_mcewen

            Julie, this was the famous invisible church, so the copies were invisible. Of course there was special glasses you could get from the 1st to 16th century cereal boxes, like koo,coo for koco puffs. Made in country kitchens. Country flowers you are a good sport.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That’s a good one, Tom, always like to read your posts, quite a kick in the britches.

          • Grandmere

            Do you think they used those infamous wax candles? Oh, the humanity!

          • Grandmere

            They started making one for themselves right at the beginning. I think they were called heretics. Satan got right to work trying to kill the infant in the crib just as he always does.

          • Grandmere

            You mean the one started by Arius?

          • Grandmere

            Correctomundo!

        • Trevor

          “God’s people were persecuted by the Catholic Church in the first to the sixteenth century more.”

          WRONG! The first group to persecute God’s people came from the Jews first. Then came the Romans’ persecution. And eventually, it came from within the church who began to teach heresies.

          • Julie

            St. Irenaeus pretty much closed it up on heresies..great scope by 200 AD.

            The books of Scripture, the form of worship in the liturgy, the episcopal form of governing the Church, and the Creed were pretty much set by 100 AD.

        • Maria

          Always changing the subject. The question was “you must name from the first century to the sixteenth, thousands who DID the work of God?” And as was told to you, you won’t answer is because you can’t answer.

        • Julie

          Show us…Lorraine Butner’s…totally devoid of factual footnotes…another one out there..

          You are fishing for anti catholic history. Find another fish.

        • theophorus

          There was no church that wasn’t catholic for the first 1000 years silly bean.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Can you tell us who ‘God’s people’ were in the first to the sixteenth century? Any secular historians who wrote about them?

        • Catbr

          You changed your original words from God’s church to God’s people because you knew how much of a lie this was….

          • Grandmere

            Hear, hear!

          • Countryflowers

            I changed it because that was my thought but I was typing fast and wrote church. If there was no other “churches” at that time then who were the people the Catholic Church was murdering ?

          • Catbr

            Yeah, I’m sure. It was a lie and you know it but you didn’t want to look like the liar that you are. I don’t know where you get the idea that the catholic church was murdering people. This would have made them as bad as you. So tell us where you heard this whopper?

          • Countryflowers

            History books

          • Catbr

            Name one history book that speaks of the murdering catholics. You can’t because there isn’t any.

          • Countryflowers

            Now you are being ridiculous. Inquisitions and Cursades? Go to your local library and ask about these books. If you can’t look at your past truthfully and be sorry and repentant then you could repeat history.

      • Half the fun of being in a cult is not having to think, though!

    • Tom_mcewen

      Did you talk to God and he told you this? I have a guy here who says God talks to him, he also spends a lot of time saying, “Get off me Devil !”. He also says he can do miracles. Can you do miracles too?

      • Countryflowers

        Can you ?

        • Tom_mcewen

          No, but if I pray my painting are better and I think that is a miracle

          • Grandmere

            It seems to be working. Keep praying.

    • Jeff Benton

      My Goodness Flowers… Im just curious, but why didnt you ask or debate something that Walid touched on in his article…

      I dont know, maybe even some obscure reference he barely touched on (sarc) — like say — The use of the Greek text over the use of the Hebrew texts of the Holy Bible???
      Could it be you didnt even read the article???

      • Maria

        “why didnt you ask or debate something that Walid touched on in his article”

        The answer is simple, if you talk about how sweet apples are, they bring up the bitterness of unripened grapes and if you talk about Olive Oil they then talk about how hard is an olive pit and if you talk about Pomegranates, they talk about how the seeds are hard to chew even though they ignore how sweet are the apples, the grapes and the pomegranates. Such are the divisive.

        • Julie

          Interesting…a Hebrew Catholic told me what line started their journey into the Church was the description of the vestments of the priests in Exodus…the pomegranites stitched on their hems…they saw this as the Church.

          • Maria

            Hebrew analogy and culture always has deep meanings.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Ii can’t remember her name, but a female Jewish convert said ‘Thanks for keeping the light on.’ – referring to the Tabernacle Light.

        • Julie

          I went to bed last night seeing how this illuminating thread…too hard for me to assemble and show my Protestant in laws, one in particular with the digs about Catholics….want to use it…I was there a few months ago…on one Sunday….4 different cars left the house to go to different churches……………………………………

          • Talk about division. 4 cars 4 churches. Typical.

          • Julie

            I am already sensing trepidation showing this piece on the Septuagint plus another to them..I sent them pictures of Sacred Heart, the prayer of consecration, the 12 promises….and no response.

            My daughter and I were spiritually close and prayed together…the sect greatly damaged our spiritual bond but she is telling me she doesn’t believe in rapture…agrees with some emerging church pastor who told his congregation he didn’t believe in it any more either…and the gathering got really upset with him…and my son in law and his mother…we all love each other very much, this I am grateful…but am building up my nerve to approach them more after no response on the pictures for their new homes.

            Atleast the neighbors wont’ be seeing the cars going out to different churches on Sundays.

      • Grandmere

        Hey Jeff! It’s all “Greek” to her. If she sees a reference to Greek, Hebrew, French, Spanish, Russian, etc. she falls into some kind of idiot’s trance. “I don’t speak those languages so I don’t have to think about it.”

    • theophorus

      Read the history of the first christians as I did as a protestant. Warning though, a year later I was Catholic.

      To be deep in history is to cease being protestant.

    • Julie

      You are truly obsessed with the pope…you focus more on him than we do. Really. Our faith does not revolve around any human being, including the pope.

  • Michael, your jargon perfectly matches your icon. Had you had anything good to write, your would have critiqued my arguments with care, yet you didn’t because you can’t. Enough said.

    • Julie

      I don’t want to go there…their faith is based more on Anti Catholicism than on Christ Who is Truth.

      You provided us a great teaching. I heard a priest preach on the Septuagint two Advents ago, and at end he brought up Luther…but again…very brief.

      • We won’t be brief here, I assure you, only full meal courses.

        • Julie

          LOL….well the priest was providing public service….and he only referred to Luther in at most 2 sentences….at Mass focus is on Word of God…not others….so that is why he was brief…I asked for copy of homily..and when it was printed out…the part on Luther was deleted.

          You are providing a rich background.

          Thanks again and I knew this was going to be a bombshell…see what is on here in 24 hours…no may be at dawn.

    • Catbr

      Ha ha, “your jargon perfectly matches your icon”.

      • Grandmere

        Sooner or later their tongue betrays what is in their heart. Peew!

  • Supersessionism is the belief that the Christian Church has replaced the Israelites as God’s chosen people and that the Mosaic covenant has been replaced or superseded by the New Covenant. From a supersessionist’s “point of view, just by continuing to exist, the Jews dissent.”

    This is so far from what I believe. Fact is, I do not believe in Replacement Theology. When one cannot refute, they resort to the only weapon left: slander. This sir, makes you a slanderer.

    • Jennifer

      Thankyou Jesus!

  • DeusLoVult

    Another VERY informative article. Thank you Mr. Shoebat, for enlightening us all. Such a wealth of information…..and of the greatest pertinence. I must say though, it makes me miserable to know that this true Christianity is rarely practiced in the modern age. I’d never have learned whit about it if I had not found your website. God bless you, Mr. Shoebat, you’re a Godsend, truly. 🙂 🙂

    • Maria

      Your welcome DesusVult. Are you asking about the Cepher Bible? If so, do we not have enough translations? I have not read it to give an opinion, but the key is to go to any Hebrew Roots blog and see how they argue over the Trinity. Go to an Orthodox, and its a pretty much established foundation. Why would anyone go anywhere to see the “spirit of debate” regarding issues that were established through Church history from long ago?

      • DeusLoVult

        Yes, my lady, the Cepher Bible. I have one….but I am unsure as to it’s advantage, if any, over other Bibles. I am told it’s one of the best translations, but I might rethink that assessment. It does include all of the removed Books, so that is at least somewhat improved over many currently in circulation. I agree, to argue over established fact is folly, as is, to contest those facts.

      • DeusLoVult

        Oh, oops. Sorry sir. lol 🙂

        • Jeff Benton

          BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
          😛 🙂 😛
          Now that6 was a classic!!!!
          Good save though Deus!!!
          heh heh heh…

          • DeusLoVult

            I didn’t see the P.S……until I reloaded the page. Ouch. lol

      • Grandmere

        Her computer works well. I wish I could meet her. She must be a saint to put up with everything that comes with you, Chef.

        • Indeed. She would love to meet you too Grandmere. I connected with Jeff. This way we could all communicate through him. Perhaps some might write articles on defending their faith and I will be glad to post them.

          • Grandmere

            Thanks. I got his e-mail regarding your idea. We can come up with “three strands”.

          • Jennifer

            I hope someday you and your family come to the Northeast Ohio area. It would be an honor to meet you all and hear your teaching in person

  • I never attributed the article of all Messianics.

    ” catholisism is anti semitic in nature”

    This is slanderous. Prove it. In reality, Protestant Luther was the most anti-Semitic man in Germany who was used by Hitler par excellence.

    Enough said.

    • The really slim shady

      Don’t forget, all the Reformers came out of the RCC – they carried with them many longstanding traditions that they already has as a result of being Catholic.

      That being said, here is a completely unbiased link (Neither Catholic or Protestant).
      http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm
      That’s just a brief glimpse.

      This is not trying to say Luther wasn’t anti-semetic, merely pointing out that Christianity has a long history of being anti-semetic.

      • Julie

        The Reformers were never Catholic, only in name and never experienced Christ in the Church. That is why they left..they preferred their own novelty and opinions.

        No more comments.

        • The really slim shady

          Hmm.. that’s an interesting take.
          I’m sure their leaving had nothing to do with being excommunicated.

          The Reformers didn’t wish to leave the Church – they wished to REFORM it. They never intended to start a new religion, just bring their religion in closer adherence to the Word of God – which it was supposedly built on.

          Stop commenting to me, and I wont comment back to you. It’s as simple as that.

          • The really slim shady

            “The Reformers were never Catholic, only in name and never experienced Christ in the Church”
            The last part of this quote says more than my friend Julie meant it to I’m sure.

          • Julie

            They never experienced Christ in His fullness…Catholicism is binding to the faithful…their faith not binding.

      • Stephen Dalton

        Your source is liberal and Anti-Christian ss.

        • The really slim shady

          Yes, i gather that. Wasnt expecting a site called “religious tolerance” to have a biased viewpoint.
          Thats precisely why i used that one.

          So many people reference Catholic websites to prove their Catholic worldviews. That doesnt work in my eyes.
          But, in contrast, i tried to show that its not just “Protestants” that share my viewpoint.

    • Woody

      So true…a long time before Hitler

  • Owen Schumacher

    Beautiful article, Walid. This makes me want to buy a Catholic–Orthodox Bible right away! If the Septuagint was used by Jesus and the Apostles, how can I argue with that?

    • Maria

      Wait till you read the Seven books Owen. The Bible I never knew.

      • Owen Schumacher

        I’m looking forward to it! I’m watching a Catholic Bible on eBay right now. 😉

      • Owen Schumacher

        Update, Maria! I just received my Catholic Bible in the mail today. It’s an old-timer printed in 1953, since I really liked the illustrations. I just read the book of Tobias, and it’s awesome! How each Tobias, senior and junior, entertains Raphael is really interesting, and the book’s emphasis on almsgiving and holy living is a big inspiration. (Annoying to Luther somehow? I really don’t get why this book would be removed.) Anyway, does Church tradition say anything about the meaning of the fish and its entrails? Immediately I thought of how Christianity itself is associated with the fish, but I couldn’t fully comprehend a connection—assuming there is one.

  • Countryflowers

    How about the Catholic Church even killing Jews who refuse to convert and be baptized

    • Catbr

      And did you hear the one about how the pope likes to eat babies? Maybe you’re not even a protestant but a muslim who wants to stir the Christian pot.

      • Countryflowers

        You need to read history through clear eyes not Catholic doctrine

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Are you kidding? All of Church history IS Catholic Doctrine.

    • The really slim shady

      They think the Inquisition and Crusades were good things.

      • DeusLoVult

        Yes…..because they WERE good.

        • The really slim shady

          🙂
          OK.

          • DeusLoVult

            I’m glad you agree, if only in a mocking, you’re-crazy-so-keep-your-distance kind of way.

          • The really slim shady

            Naturally, I don’t agree.
            It’s like the “ends justify the means” argument.
            Like it’s OK to murder and torture people because you’re doing God’s work. I disagree with that notion.

            And the people who flat out deny the RCC’s involvement, or deny that the Crusades/Inquisition slaughtered innocent people – remind me of Holocaust deniers.

            Of course people have “proof” that these things didn’t happen…. People also make money selling books and videos about the proof that the Holocaust didn’t happen.

          • DeusLoVult

            If you had read that article I gave you so long ago, you would know the murder-torture part was mostly fiction.

          • Countryflowers

            “Mostly fiction ” ? Wow the blind leading the blind…..where did God say they would end up ?

          • DeusLoVult

            I would rather lose my sight than become a fool like you. Am I to trust your uninformed opinion over that of the best Crusader historian in the world?

          • Countryflowers

            Was he a Catholic?

          • DeusLoVult

            He’s still alive. I have no idea what his denomination is.

          • Countryflowers

            Right…..

          • DeusLoVult

            Look him up, if you don’t believe me.

          • The really slim shady

            I did read that article. Read it again too.
            And the one about the Crusades.
            Just because someone writes it down doesn’t make a thing true.

          • DeusLoVult

            No….but because he is the Director of the Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies makes his views a h*ll of a lot more credible than yours, or anyone else on here.

          • The really slim shady

            Wasn’t even referring to my point of view.
            There’s plenty of evidence out there to “prove” the arguments both ways. It all comes down to what do you believe to be true.

            Everybody has an “expert” witness.

          • DeusLoVult

            Incorrect. One of them is an expert, everyone else is out to subvert the truth.

          • Trevor

            Only less than 10% were tortured. Do some reading online about the truth behind the Spanish Inquisition. And the torture only lasted 10 minutes under strict medical supervision.

          • Countryflowers

            Well then to that “ten percent” who’s life was murdered by the Catholic Church doesn’t count that much to you ?

          • Trevor

            Was it the Catholic Church? The Spanish Monarch? Who was responsible? Hmm?

          • Countryflowers

            Catholic Church and we all know it

          • Trevor

            Proof?

          • Countryflowers

            The proof is in EVERY library in U.S. Go read

          • Trevor

            That is conjecture. I am asking YOU to provide proof.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            She never has proof.

          • Trevor

            Never does when she is pressed.

          • Grandmere

            That’s her story and she is sticking to it. Never even stops to wonder is she is on a rock or a pit of quicksand,

          • Kamau41

            DEAD WRONG!!!!! You never answered the question. Where is the proof?

          • Countryflowers

            Where’s yours

          • Kamau41

            Since you started MSU(Making Stuff Up), I asked you first? I already know you CAN’T and WILL NOT! You might as well just stop talking.

          • The really slim shady

            So you would enjoy it if you or one in ten members of your family were tortured?
            Why is the church getting involved with torturing at all?
            Oh wait, I know that answer…. they didn’t do the torturing, they just handed them over to the authorities to receive their punishment….

            “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.” Matt 10:14
            That sounds like the way Christ would have us handle “heretics”.

          • Trevor
          • The really slim shady

            Well hey, that changes everything!

          • Trevor

            Please don’t be sarcastic.

          • The really slim shady

            I can’t make any promises….

          • susan

            He strikes me as more of a mocker.

          • The really slim shady

            No, Trevor was right. I was being sarcastic.
            Not that I see a problem with sarcasm myself, I understand some people don’t like it.

          • DeusLoVult

            People I know are always getting annoyed with my sarcastic personality. 🙂

          • The really slim shady

            Some people get out of hand with it. As in the case above, I really didn’t have much else to say….lol
            I could have went into why I disagree, but I figured it really didn’t matter. And didn’t feel like making the effort to argue such a (in my eyes) preposterous idea.
            It’s like 95 degrees around here today… I have much less stamina than I usually do. 🙂

          • DeusLoVult

            Bah, live in MS for a little while, then tell me it’s hot. 🙂

          • The really slim shady

            Lol… us cheeseheads are cold weather people.
            Were not built for 90s with 80% humidity.

            Im one of the priviledged few though, as i have less than 10% body fat. Most of us love cheese too much for that. Must be unbearable for them.

          • DeusLoVult

            Wisconsin?

          • The really slim shady

            Indeed. Feels like the Apocalypse out here….lol

          • DeusLoVult

            lol The heat get’s horrible here, but everything stays green…it’s kind of odd. And the humidity…..you could drown in it.

          • The really slim shady

            I can’t imagine. It’s got to feel like living in the jungle.
            I love spring and fall. WI is too extreme. It’ll be -20 and snowing here in just a few weeks.

          • DeusLoVult

            Kind of….without all the nastier bugs, thank God. It’s funny….earlier this year, in February, we had 7 INCHES of snow….that’s insane for down here….and unfortunate, in one respect. The people crash going 10 mph. 🙂

          • The really slim shady

            I bet you still have some nasty bugs down there.

            AHHHH! 7″ ?!?!? lolol… Yeah, you guys aren’t equipped for it like we are either.
            “We have a snow emergency….7 inches have fallen”….lol
            That’s a dusting.

          • DeusLoVult

            Well, we have cow ants, and horse flies as big as your thumb, and a few other nasty critters. The snow was cool….I know the dogs liked it. 🙂 Yeah, Northern folk always love to ridicule our snow…..but we can laugh whenever we see them complain about the heat.

          • The really slim shady

            Cow ants you say?! I’ll be looking that one up. Sounds very interesting.

            But yeah, I’ll give you… we’re wimps in the heat.
            Shade and a cold lemonade just doesn’t cut it.
            And I’m also a wimp in the winter. And I just agreed to plow this winter yesterday….. one of my greatest fears…lol

          • DeusLoVult

            Yeah, cow ants. They’re big, ugly, and hard to kill…..and their sting is VERY painful…best to avoid them. Here’s a picture.

          • The really slim shady

            Id be moving to a different state if i seen those.
            We have nothing too crazy around here.
            God built SE WI as a special place. Worst thing we get is blizzards.

          • DeusLoVult

            lol They’re kind of hard to avoid. We don’t get blizzards, thankfully. I don’t think the people could survive them here. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            No wine bottles are broken, I hope.

          • DeusLoVult

            No, my lady, but quite a few of them are empty.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Maybe all the unseasonably heat is emanating from his immense light?

          • Grandmere

            Try the bayou in Louisiana. Been there. Done that. Survived, as only the strong do.

          • DeusLoVult

            Can’t be too much worse, my lady. We get 110-15 degrees and 90% humidity in the summer.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Ain’t got nothing on Panama – lived 3 years of air you wear.

          • susan

            And the true numbers are probably HUGE Kind Sir 😉

          • DeusLoVult

            Only as many people as I know, my lady. God has spared that world, that that number is small. 🙂

          • Grandmere

            Did you read it?

          • The really slim shady

            Is it impossible to think I could read something and still not believe it?
            Like I said, there’s “experts” on every side of the aisle.
            I think the narrative of history appears quite clear.

          • DeusLoVult

            I think it’s actually 2%. The numbers have been ludicrously inflated over the years.

          • Trevor

            I got that number from reading Thomas F. Madden’s article.

          • DeusLoVult

            Oh……maybe it was 2% who were ‘tortured’ more than once? I cannot remember.

          • Countryflowers

            SICKO

          • DeusLoVult

            Haha. Please don’t tell jokes when we’re trying to have a serious discussion. Now, ‘torture only lasted 15 minutes, and was used as a last resort. READ the article!

          • Countryflowers

            Muslim

          • DeusLoVult

            You’ll have to make at least partially intelligible statements for me to understand you. That comment isn’t even close.

          • Countryflowers

            Truth

          • Grandmere

            You know he’s no Muslim. You are just being snotty.

          • Kamau41

            The problem is she can’t read or understand.

          • Julie

            Derailed thread last night.

          • Countryflowers

            Go to God and repent

          • DeusLoVult

            Me? I’m not the one distorting historical facts. How arrogant of you.

          • Countryflowers

            All liars will have their place in the lake of fire

          • DeusLoVult

            Which one’s yours?

        • Countryflowers

          Sicko …good killing other Christians and Jews ?

          • DeusLoVult

            That myth, along with every other is addressed here: http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/tmadden_crusademyths_feb05.asp

          • Countryflowers

            Man you are so deceived

          • DeusLoVult

            God help me, you are so ignorant. The article was written by Thomas Madden, RENOWNED Crusader historian, whose intelligence far surpasses your own. Read it, and learn, or continue to be stupid, it’s your choice.

          • Countryflowers

            There’s more historians and history books then his.

          • DeusLoVult

            Yeah, but most of them agree with him. Who would you believe, Runciman? The rabidly anti-Christian communistic ‘scholar’ whose propaganda was designed to make the West out to be nothing more than an evil imperialistic society from the get-go?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Hillaire Belloc ring a bell?

          • Grandmere

            There are none so blind but those who refuse to see. She is a dead person walking.

          • DeusLoVult

            I agree, my lady. Sight is truly a gift in the modern age.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Hope you preserved some of that fabulous wine, I need a sip.

          • DeusLoVult

            Still plenty left, my lady….and I’ve something stronger if you need that too. 😀

          • Julie LaBrecque

            For now, I guess Deep Fork Red will have to do.

          • DeusLoVult

            Ha! Very well, my lady…..one of these days, I’m going to have to take you out for wine. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Would be splendid – I’ll bring you a bottle from Oklahoma.

          • DeusLoVult

            I’ll get you some from France, my lady. I get it at discount from the French Embassy here. 😀

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Woo – impressive- Burgundy – Champagne – Bordeaux…?

          • DeusLoVult

            Only the best for you, my lady. Pétrus, Château Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande, Château Margaux, etc. 🙂

          • Grandmere

            My daughter in law always gets a couple of cases of Nueuvelle Boujeoulaise. I hope I spelled that right. That’s the oil of many a mother/daughter in law conversation.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Never had it.

    • Grandmere

      Your attic really needs to be aired out.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You better have Batman on speed-dial when she does.

  • Steve Smith

    after seeing this vid, hope people come to a better understanding of what we orthodox actually do.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2qSeiTCfI

  • Maria

    I will get that book. Thanks for the nugget.

    • Jennifer

      My father has his books.

  • Maria

    I asked the same question for years Catbr, the Hatred of Catholics is the only accepted prejudice. But this should attract the seeker. Why is the first word you wrote and “why” is the favorite word for the seeker.

    • Trevor

      Personally, I think those who hate the Catholics watch too many Hollywood movies.

      • Julie

        I looked this up today as a matter of fact.

        It turns out Mr. Chick is the most effective at present for creating this mess…and people pay no attention that he was never a Jesuit as he claims.

        • Trevor

          I looked up Jack Chick. It seem he is a modern version of Martin Luther.

          • Julie

            Yes, the primary protagonist is Jack Chick…and most mainline Protestants see him as totally off base and the fraud that he is.

            What is so disturbing is how he influences these evangelicals, and other sects.

          • Trevor

            And he also influences low informed Catholics as well.

    • Julie

      Maria, are you a native American or born overseas?

  • Trevor

    It wasn’t the Catholic Church that issued that call. It came straight from the monarch of Spain who fell to the Protestantism mania. Also, jealous Jews who saw their own being converted to Christianity also fueled the fire.

    In response to Jewish complaint, the Catholic Church sent investigators to check into the claim that Jews were being forcibly converted to Christianity. Under the Romans’ rules of investigation, the inquisitors found that in some case, the Jews were forcibly converted, and they were allowed to return to their original faith without any penalty whatsoever.

    I would tell you more, but there are plenty of reading materials online that soundly debunked many myths of the Spanish Inquisition.

    • colin

      It wasn’t the Catholic’s it was the Protestantmania; is this a joke…

      Alonso de Hojeda, a Dominican friar from Seville, convinced Queen Isabella of the existence of Crypto-Judaism among Andalusian conversos during her stay in Seville between 1477 and 1478. A report, produced by Pedro González de Mendoza, Archbishop of Seville, and by the Segovian Dominican Tomás de Torquemada, corroborated this assertion.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Start_of_the_Inquisition

      • Trevor

        Fail. You cited Wikipedia. Try again.

        • colin

          Ahhh a – sore loser…

          • Trevor

            Nope. Since college English professors threatened to flunk anyone who cited Wikipedia, I have made it a habit to never use Wikipedia to argue a point or counterpoint.

          • colin

            I checked three sources however Wikipedia was the most balanced…

          • Trevor

            Then give me those three sources!

          • colin
          • Trevor

            Okay, now I have read those three sources. Here’s a rebuttal from Thomas F. Madden, a leading authority on the Crusades, and he was involved, I believe, with the review of documents relating to the Spanish Inquisition. The late pope John Paul II was the man who actually wanted to know what was up with the Spanish Inquisition, so the Vatican opened up the archives.

            Read more here – http://www.nationalreview.com/article/211193/real-inquisition-thomas-f-madden

          • colin

            What a joke – it was all the fault of protestants and those dam printing presses.

            An account of an auto da fe, performed at Madrid in the year 1682

            The officers of the Inquisition, preceded by trumpets, kettledrums, and their banner, marched on the thirtieth of May, in cavalcade, to the palace of the great square, where they declared by proclamation, that, on the thirtieth of June, the sentence of the prisoners would be put in execution.

            Of these prisoners, twenty men and women, with one renegade Mahometan, were ordered to be burned; fifty Jews and Jewesses, having never before been imprisoned, and repenting of their crimes, were sentenced to a long confinement, and to wear a yellow cap. The whole court of Spain was present on this occasion. The grand inquisitor’s chair was placed in a sort of tribunal far above that of the king.

            Among those who were to suffer, was a young Jewess of exquisite beauty, and but seventeen years of age. Being on the same side of the scaffold where the queen was seated, she addressed her, in hopes of obtaining a pardon, in the following pathetic speech: “Great queen, will not your royal presence be of some service to me in my miserable condition? Have regard to my youth; and, oh! consider, that I am about to die for professing a religion imbibed from my earliest infancy!” Her majesty seemed greatly to pity her distress, but turned away her eyes, as she did not dare to speak a word in behalf of a person who had been declared a heretic.

            Now Mass began, in the midst of which the priest came from the altar, placed himself near the scaffold, and seated himself in a chair prepared for that purpose.

            The chief inquisitor then descended from the amphitheater, dressed in his cope, and having a miter on his head. After having bowed to the altar, he advanced towards the king’s balcony, and went up to it, attended by some of his officers, carrying a cross and the Gospels, with a book containing the oath by which the kings of Spain oblige themselves to protect the Catholic faith, to extirpate heretics, and to support with all their power and force the prosecutions and decrees of the Inquisition: a like oath was administered to the counsellors and whole assembly. The Mass was begun about twelve at noon, and did not end until nine in the evening, being protracted by a proclamation of the sentence of the several criminals, which were already separately rehearsed aloud one after the other.

            After this followed the burnings of the twenty-one men and women, whose intrepidity in suffering that horrid death was truly astonishing. The king’s near situation to the criminals rendered their dying groans very audible to him; he could not, however, be absent from this dreadful scene, as it is esteemed a religious one; and his coronation oath obliged him to give a sanction by his presence to all the acts of the tribunal.

            Read more here

            http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox105.htm

          • Julie

            Find out who wrote the story. English nationalists created alot of the disinformation after the reformation…the BBC came out and brought forward the truth of the Inquisition…you should follow their example on integrity.

            Anyway, what you say and realizing how unsubstianted, perverted and self aggrandizing you are of yourself… it is time to say Adios.

          • colin

            I like reading the Fox’s Book of Martyrs.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Big surprise.

          • Dave Knapp

            Blaaaaaaah

          • AnthonyM

            It was written by one of his church fathers.

          • A bit like reading Jack Chick comic book tracts. High level of intellect there, eh?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            For those who didn’t have far to go.

          • When you start in a cesspool, the only way to can head is up.

          • Dave Knapp

            Bleeechh

          • Julie

            learn anything yet?

          • This guy is a goof. Just ignore the troll. Anyone who cites Foxe or Hislop is no better than Jack Chick, and should be mocked as such.

          • Julie

            Just hearing about Hislop….too bad…I pray for them…but don’t want to engage with them,….their abuse….

          • They should be prayed for, as they source a Satanic man.

          • Julie

            I told this one fellow I did indeed pray for him at our rosary Mass with the archbishop…
            he is telling us to pray the rosary every day for the forthcoming synod…have you read about Cardinal Marx of Munchen Germany and his crowd…they met privately…but as usual in the Church such hidden groups are always exposed while they are in the secret meeting …it happens every time….

            Bishop is preparing us to be courageous…strong….I am here on this site to witness the martyrdom of our fellow Univeral Christian brethren of the MIddle East…and want to be brave and happy if I am set up for execution…because I am Christian…and all the worse for me being one of those idolatrous RC’s……

          • Julie

            I did today at Mass…thinking about them coming home…yes they are in bondage under a satanic man.

          • AnthonyM

            Foxe’s Book of Martyrs is slander, and has been debunked. He was criticized in his own day by Catholics such as Harpsfield and Father Parsons and by practically all serious ecclesiastical historians. It is mostly fabrication.

            ‘A Critical & Historical Review of Fox’s Book of Martyrs, Shewing the Inaccuracies, Falsehoods, & Misrepresentations in that Work of Deception, pubished between 1824 and 1826 in two volumes, on the rare book market. The author is William Eusebius Andrews. The books are very fragile.

            Protestants continue to print the Fox (or Foxe) book to use as a club against the Catholic Church, although it was printed in 16– something and should have been off the market centuries ago. It’s part of the Black Legend based on the deliberate lies of (English) Protestants around the time of the so-called Reformation.’ quote from one who read both books.

          • Dave Knapp

            Blah blah blah

          • Woody

            That’s what Julie meant by “no surprise.”
            “Know the truth and the truth will set you free.” Thanks, Jesus

          • AnthonyM

            Right. The truth means nothing to one with a close mind, that is why they remain in a cult.

          • Woody

            Yes, even their Nr 1 Theologian says they are “prejudiced” so don’t pay any attention them. (Harnack)

          • Julie

            Yes….so….how much to take…it is the same old stuff….

          • AnthonyM

            Many minds are closed.

          • Julie

            Makes me think of the serenity prayer….

          • Woody

            not new

          • Woody

            What is a most balanced lie? A mis-truth is a mis-truth…

          • Woody

            Good habit; I try not to use it too unless it says the same as a trusted source.

          • Unfortunately, Wikipedia is seen as an easy go-to for most people, since they are either too lazy or too stupid to actually go through history. Evangelicalism/Pentecostalism actually has a hatred for learning, which is a direct import from the English Baptist tradition. These people are so close to the Taliban in mentality that it’s frightening.

          • Trevor

            Wikipedia is a curse. Invented by satan to keep everyone lazy from actually researching and learning.

          • It’s not bad if these are old articles which are referenced from Britannica from 1911. Most modern articles are crap. And it shows from the people who source these things.

          • It’s true. I hated teaching after a while simply because students aren’t bright enough to actually read prime sources.

          • Trevor

            Agreed. Now I try to access academic journals since they are peer reviewed and held to a high standard.

          • This is why I look at primary sources, and if possible, at the original language. Translation is usually done poorly, as the King James Version of the Bible can attest to. No other Bible is so badly done.

          • Trevor

            I have been using the NASB now in conjunction with NKJV.

          • These are good upgrades. Just stay away from the NIV, which is considered damn near blasphemous.

          • Woody

            Yes, anyone can post anything they want on Wiki’ better to go to someone like Eusebius History of Christianity than the other stuff and this is closer to Jesus’ time. I also like the Didache.

        • Woody

          Great point…wikipedia can post whoever sends something in>>>

      • Julie

        Actually there are Crypto Jews living right in SW USA…and still afraid to come out with their identity…almost was able to meet a lady thus so in Seattle..all with good will and she backed out.

    • Dave Knapp

      Incendiary

  • susan

    Thank you Walid There is a lot of error and confusion and watered down teachings moving through Protestant churches. May your article equip everyday pew sitters like myself with wisdom to avoid the serpent salesmen and saleswomen.

  • Julie

    The Septuagint translation is the most accurate of all bible translations.

    Great article and will send to my evangelical in laws.

  • Jeff Benton

    Knowing God, how would anyone dare to remove entire books from the Scripture???
    And aren’t there some verses taken out of Daniel and whatnot too???

    I gotta admit, I’m pretty upset that there are books of Scripture I have never read when studying the Bible for these past years…
    I feel as if I have been robbed…
    I’ve got them right here too… Just never read them when moved by the Spirit to study Scripture…
    That’s just wrong…
    It is my own fault though… I should have been more focused… If I had been, surely I would have searched for the correct books when looking for where the Apostles repeated OT Scripture…

    Fear is indeed the mind killer… I should have never stayed away from books labeled as “Apocrypha ” or ” Deuterocanonical ” just because the words made them sound heretical or dangerous…
    Ahhh, but such is the lot of those who attempt to self educate… It sometimes takes a bit longer when the proper teachers are too few and far between…

    • Trevor

      I am in the same boat as you.

    • Countryflowers

      You have the Pope to teach you….”.

      • Jeff Benton

        That was oh so helpful…
        Troll much???

        • Julie

          Now…here they come….country flowers the Westminster CARM crowd? Valleygems, and other names they call themselves…

        • susan

          She’s as wall weed. 🙂

          • Jeff Benton

            If your talking about something she may be smoking, I may have to agree with ya LOL…

      • Julie

        Did you bother to read the teaching here? The Apostolic Church, Latin and Eastern apostolic churches, used the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the one referenced none other by Our Lord, His apostles, and St. Paul.

        Luther was highly scrupulous, could not experience God’s acceptance anywhere so he had to start his own form of Christianity that suit him. The preacher, not Christ the atonement for sin, was the main focus of your worship…man made worship.

        I don’t think you even bother to read what Catholics truly believe…the fullness deposit of faith in Christ and its practices…not any pope.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          She isn’t interested in disputing the article.

          • Julie

            Yes…I just sent her a long post…wonder if she will read it.

          • susan

            Depends on if she wants to learn or not. Hopefully she will. 🙂

      • theophorus

        Who’s your pope? If it’s you yourself I’m afraid you’re not qualified. I used to be my own pope and it nearly cost me my very soul.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Yes – parts of Esther (10:14 to 16:14) and Daniel (3:24- 90; 13; 14). If you are one for in-depth study, I recommend 2 books by Gary Michuta, ‘Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger’ and ‘The Case for the Deuterocanon’.

      • Jeff Benton

        Thanks Julie…

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Welcome- Bill who?

      • I just ordered it. Thanks Julie. Now we know we’re you get your nuggets.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          You won’t be disappointed, excellent, fully annotated.

  • Julie

    There were Jews and Muslims going into church as converts, receiving communion without faith and reverance, and the Church is supposed to protect the Lord’s Divine Presence from sacrilege.

    Also the Host was being taken into homes for Jewish blasphemy and sacrilege.

    And Catholic Spain saw its calling to be a Christian nation. It was plundered continually for 700 years by the Muslim Moors and endured dhimmitude and second class status with no ability to prosletyze its own people and subjects for the Catholic faith.

    It may be OK for Israel to want Jews to run it for their reasons, and I sense many who say such about the Church have never lived in dhimmitude…or their parents or grandparents so many generations back.

    The Jews in those days worked against civil authorities for a united country and was the final reason for their expulsion.

    • Dave Knapp

      Aaaaaaaak

  • Julie

    And how the Tanakh was different from the Talmud and wondered as well if Spanish Jews followed the Talmud and its derelictions against Christ, as well as how they dealt with ‘goyim’ in business matters. In Rome, the Talmud and other places were ordered by the popes to be destroyed for the dishonor and malediction done against Christ and His people and humanity.

  • Kamau41

    Waild-
    Another double whammy blockbuster article filled with so much truth/historical facts that is impossible to refute. There is so much to learn here. Thank you.

    • Trevor

      Trouble is…some people don’t want to learn. Some read articles like this just so they can argue. Others read articles so they could be appreciative and maybe have intelligent conversation. Sigh.

      • Kamau41

        So very true Trevor. If folks would just only open up their hearts to the truth and take the time to allow their minds to think thru they would be much further ahead.

    • I thought it would be something you would like 41. Wisdom is the key to Freedom 41. This was we do not spend our lives as slaves, on this ship.

      • Kamau41

        Indeed Walid. As I read these masterful articles you, Ted and Thomas King write regarding Church History I’m always reminded how much I don’t know, but have an open heart to learn and apply.

    • Julie

      It really hits at the center of ‘Sola Scriptura’….sola without evidence is the better term.

  • Julie

    Do you know the Eastern Orthodox is our other half????

  • Countryflowers

    I want to ask all you Catholics here ….do you believe the Pope has authority to change scripture ?

    • Julie

      Never happened. Show us where the pope changed Scripture when the Catholic Church teaches it anathema anyone change even one word of Scripture.

      • Countryflowers

        But do you BELIEVE he has that authority?

        • Julie

          No.

          You are in bondage by some false cult claiming it is Christian.

          Please take time to read Walid’s teaching.

          • Countryflowers

            How about this Pope changing scripture for sodomites to marry

          • Julie

            Show us in the catechism where it claims Catholic Church supports not only homosexual acts but also marriage.

            Our eyes are on the deposit of faith in Christ, not any man. You put too much trust on men.

            The pope can never teach against faith and morals. It is forbidden by Canon Law.

            He never said he was for gay marriage…what he is for is treating them with compassion, mercy, and prayer.

          • Countryflowers

            You are the one that puts to much in man. Stand on Jesus alone.

          • Julie

            Sorry. for us Christ is the Cornerstone of our faith…even if Muslims destroy the Vatican..in the end it is a beautiful building. And many times people of past persecutions went to Mass in the fields, in barns…

            The difference is that we are Ecclesial Deists. Christ is big enough God to trust allowing His Church to be run by His apostles and their successors…not anti Catholic preacher men with their false doctrines and empty worship based on their ideas. We are all sinners in constant need of Our Lord’s saving grace.

            May be instead of spreading false accusations…just spend some time reading about the Liturgy of the Hours…a priest is supposed to complete all the hours every day…see the Psalms he professes in his faith….

          • Countryflowers

            Maybe if you spent more time reading the holy bible instead of catholic books your eyes would loose their scales.

          • Julie

            why not take a look at our doctrines of faith in the Catechism that show the references to Scripture and the Early Church Fathers? Really, Countryflowers…how old are you?…you come across as an older woman who went to one of those rural churches in the South where on Sunday the preacher man would get up at his pulpit and start getting mad at Catholics.

            I don’t know….but you come across as such..and such preachers are not leading you into the fullness of God.

          • Countryflowers

            I was raise Church of God the one based in tenn. Same as Perry Stone

          • Julie

            Thank you…there are not too many Catholics down there. My dear friend moved to Kentucky but on SW side. She became a Catholic from Southern Baptist.
            You can look at Catechism on line…go to prologue…or go to part on Scriptures and it will tell you our perspective.

          • Countryflowers

            And I love all people. And I pray that all will see the truth of Hods word.. King James Bible

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Missing 7 books.

          • Grandmere

            What is it about the King James Bible that makes it “the one”?

          • Trevor

            I don’t like the King James Version that much. The heavy usage of “Thou,” “Thee,” and so forth puts me to sleep.

            Lately, I have been using the BibleGateway.com and using the New American Standard Bible.

          • Grandmere

            She is terrified to touch the catechism, let alone read it.

          • Julie

            I know, Grandmere….this is the bondage they are in…I am still scrolling down to see if she has any response to my post….

          • Julie

            Just heard from her today…she is now considering using it!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Is your Bible even complete – or do you have the truncated variety?

          • Countryflowers

            Get a King James and read it and you will be fine

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I believe that you once stated that your eyesight was poor? Did you even read the article? Your King James, unless it is the original 1611, is missing 7 books and parts of Esther and Daniel. Comprende?

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            And funny that she trusts in a Bible founded by a King, a man, a man who believed in Witch’s hexes and had serious personal issues

          • Grandmere

            You are not having a conversation. You are just throwing stones. Your mind is closed on the subject.

          • Maria

            Country Flowers, the devil is able to come and disguise himself and say he is Jesus. Ever think about that?

          • Countryflowers

            The Pope doesn’t even try to hide his blasphemy ever think about that ?

          • Julie

            Likewise because of how you come to your beliefs, you cannot understand what I said….

          • Jeff Benton

            LOL where in the world did you ever hear that???
            And exactly which new Bible came out with the new scripture from this Pope???
            Ya might want to take a bvreak from alex jones I’m thinking heh heh heh…

          • DeusLoVult

            I think he/she’s been reading the Edwitness Bible, it’s poisoned her/his mind. 🙂

          • Jeff Benton

            LOL

          • DeusLoVult

            I wonder if he’s giving out signed copies yet, I want one. Finally, the Bible has been interpreted correctly by a non-denominational scholar. A hero of Christendom. Were it not for that brave soul, who had to endure so much of our persecution, OUR souls would be forever lost to the grips of Satan. We are forever indebted to his wisdom. 🙂

          • Catbr

            ha ha

          • Countryflowers

            Heard it from the Pope himself. He stated it was alright

          • Jeff Benton

            That doesn’t make it Scripture even if he had said that…
            You are in Error…
            Its not Spoketure…
            It’s Scripture…

          • Countryflowers

            He is your leader…he has changed scripture for Catholics by going against God’s word.

          • Julie

            falsehood, totally unsubstantiated and kooky at that.

          • Countryflowers

            Did he not say to to accept gay marriage?

          • Julie

            No!…He is asking us to be like Christ with the woman at the well…not to condemn her but get into conversation with her..so the grace of Christ can touch her soul.

            The soul is spirit, it is the greatest part of us and it belongs to God…and it hungers for truth and love…so when someone passes on Christ’s grace to another…even at the moment they reject…the truth of grace continues to penetrate the soul.

            He can never go against the Church…

            And the Church right now is working to focus on the family….I personally think it started with women who wanted to be promiscuous, take contraception, commit abortion, and their counterpart men, who both no longer believed in the permanency of marriage and it as institution…both as matter of faith and Natural Law…ancient civilizations did not have homosexual marriages no matter how much you are told that today..it is atheists wanting to make it merely a Christian opposition..when in fact…gay marriage goes against life and our future generations.

            If you want to watch out for anybody…look up Cardinal Marx…and those in leadership of the German Catholic Church where they are losing people, churches and confessionals empty…and they are the ones trying to change our position on family, marriage.

            The pope is totally committed to the sanctity of marriage.

            And if he started to turn on the fullness of faith…he would then be declared an anti pope. He is not.

            P Francis just has a way of speaking…once you find out what he truly meant….that he is not clear…and he needs to for the sake of his office.

            Look at St. Peter…a good example of future popes. He was co founder of Church of Rome. Linus followed, title used was bishop of Rome. Any pope since then is also assigned as bishop of Rome as well..title pope did not come later until church grew more culturally diverse..

            Pope is sign of our common unity.

            There are 5 Patriarchs in Universal Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martrydom, named the Church…He Ekklesia Katholika (Greek)…the Universal Church.

            The Universal Church comprised of Jerusalem because Christ had his ministry there..although most Hebrew Christians left in the Diaspora and were the ones who were in Rome before SS Peter and Paul arrived. St. Mark founded the Church of Alexandria Egyptian Patriarch, St. Peter founded the Antiochan Church/Patriarch, SS Peter and Paul co founded the Church of Rome, and then there is the Patriarch of Constantinople. This is the Byzantine Church.

            The Emperor of Rome moved Roman headquarters to Western Asia Minor to escape the barbarian invasions. The worst Christian persecution was there in Asia Minor. late 200’s to 302 AD. Emperor Diocletian destroyed most churches, and killed almost every bishop. Constantine fought the Romans and won. He helped the Church choose bishops and helped rebuild churches. He was not baptized until days before his death. In part, ancient Christians made vows at end of Mass, not to lie and steal, kill, or commit adultery. Emperors kill. So in good conscience he could not be baptized until he was close to death…this an assumption.

          • Julie

            I saw one article link…in past, we would pull away from gay couples…and whole gay marriage idea.
            In Universal Church tradition…and Natural Law…marriage is between man and woman.
            The state seculars have moved it to include gay marriage.

            But P Francis is taking second look at it…in how to approach them…it is very hard…and I somehow think we have to keep connected to such people…the Lord gave me grace to be in such a household caring for someone who lived with them…prayed this partnership would break up….happened to see the former partner at a wedding…and she wants to serve overseas…and thinking of the celibates who gave all to the kingdom…

            told her if she goes…it may reduce her need for a more personal relationship, that is exclusive to just one person…and instead focus on serving the needs of many. It shocked her…but I am hoping and praying she will be lead by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ and let Him be her partner.

          • Julie

            Countryflowers…there is a Ms Winslet from Associated Press who is notorious for skewing p Francis’s words.

          • Jeff Benton

            Oh my… you are not very bright…
            Let me see if I can make known to you the difference between someone talking, and the Written Word of God known as the Holy Bible and referred to as Scripture…

            Nah… On second thought, that may be a very long task indeed… Forget I mentioned it heh heh heh…

          • DeusLoVult

            Easy now…..you’ve got to go slow with these people….your comment was much to complex for him to understand. Take it one word at a time. 🙂

          • Countryflowers

            Are you still going to listen to the Pope after his blasphemy about sodomites ?

          • Jeff Benton

            You have yet to show me any of the popes blasphemy about sodomites…

          • Countryflowers

            Search the web you will find it

          • Jeff Benton

            Every thing I have found so far was debunked… so why dont you find it… is it because you cant???

          • Countryflowers

            No it’s because I’m on my iPad and it’s hard for me to copy and paste on this. Look it up it’s easy to find

          • Jeff Benton

            So you start arguments you have no way of backing up and then expect others to go research your own arguments for you???
            Are you insane???

          • “Are you insane???”

            No she’s not. We are. For paying attention to what she says.

          • Jeff Benton

            LOL good point…

          • Grandmere

            You’re right, Chef. I needed to hear that.

          • Julie

            LOL.

          • Grandmere

            Of course. We are the ones who need an “evaluation” for talking back to her. But, hey! That’s why we need the Lord.

          • Grandmere

            You bear the burden of proof. Not Jeff. You made te accusation. Bring your case.

          • Countryflowers

            It’s all over the net

          • Grandmere

            That’s not the answer. Bring your case. Cite your evidence.

          • Julie

            Well…I am older and I have a hard time with copy and paste, too. my son came in and quickly did it and went off back to his studies…always out now.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I think she is the one that says she has bad eyes…..

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            I have bad eyes, dyslexic too, but I seem to manage around here ok, I think.

          • Julie

            I developed some dyslexia from caring for my dad and alzheimer clients…gads…I went into dental assisting…and was going to put a patient in a room, knew which room and when I was preparing…going to it and then turned to the opposite chair side. Lost my confidence and went back to home nursing where things are usually at easy, homemaker tempo, which I do most of my time.

          • Grandmere

            Yes. The last time she used that as an excuse when she blasted away without reading the article.

          • Countryflowers

            I read the title. It wasn’t woman friendly

          • Julie LaBrecque

            From your posts, one would think you never read the title or the article. Can you refute anything in the article?

          • Grandmere

            Well this whole world is not woman friendly. Especially right now. What you are really says was it wasn’t Countryflowers friendly.

          • Julie

            Do you live in the country side of Tennesee? My mother’s side was protestant. Her ancestors came in through Virginia, English, Scotch Irish. Then they moved into West Virginia, then Tennesee and then Missouri….my great great great great great uncle was first governor of the territory and had the most slaves…my great great grandparents had a plantation and left to come out to the Coast.

            They were Baptists…earthy, fun loving. But their faith ebbed. My grandmother, smoking her cigarette and always saying somebody was madder than s in a skittle, said that she was Christian, believed in the Bible, and that the Red Dragon was the communists, and the world would end by fire and that meant now nuclear war.

            My mother became Catholic on her own. She met my dad a devout Catholic, My grandmother never had a mean thing to say about Catholics and had reverence for our church. Her next door neighbor went to my cousin’s wedding who became Catholic and the neighbor wanted to know why they were allowing those telephones to keep on ringing during the wedding…the Mass…the consecration where the altar boy rings the bells..my grandmother got mad at her, madder than a s in a skillet…and really told her off.

          • Grandmere

            Good one Jeff.

          • Julie

            They are on tripping on the same stuff. Hogwash.

            If anything where there could be potential trouble, it would be elements from the dying Catholic church in Germany. Note, elements, not all.

          • Julie

            Country flowers…I am Catholic my whole life….devout kind…we lived 5 blocks from church.

            I spent some time answering you…you can scroll up here not too far and take some time to read it. It will also dispute your WND source.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Protestants change scripture.

          • Julie

            Show us the article. Our bishop never announced to us that the pope is now opposing Catholic morality.

          • Countryflowers

            go to WND and look it up

          • Julie

            Yes…I stopped going there when they said Constantine in Asia Minor started the Roman Catholic Church in Rome.

          • Julie

            WND does not have the ability to even comment on the Church and the papacy after what I have read. It is all distorted.

          • Grandmere

            Is WND the altar at which you worship?

          • Countryflowers

            No. It’s the news I read

          • susan

            Now you’re speaking with the Pope?! What a silly creature you are…

          • Countryflowers

            Susan he was on the news and an article on WND

          • Julie

            They are bent…and what they try to say is not what is happening….those are no sources on the pope.

          • Grandmere

            So what?

          • Countryflowers

            Proof

    • Catbr

      Why don’t you just say what you really mean? Like you disagree with this article and don’t believe any of it because it is proving the history of the catholic church? Instead you start stupid comments to distract from it and trash catholics.

      • DeusLoVult

        Thanks Catbr. I’ve been looking for a good definition of ‘troll.’ I just found it. 🙂

        • Catbr

          No problem. Troll is right.

        • Countryflowers

          I am a truth teller

          • DeusLoVult

            Good troll…..good troll….want a stick?! See! Go get the stick boy, go get the stick!

          • Countryflowers

            sounds like you and the Pope

          • DeusLoVult

            What sounds like me? I sound like me? Naturally.

          • Julie

            I think she is….someone of an older generation…that raised some where in the Deep South….I mom’s side came from there…pretty much lost their Baptist roots…and were, thankfully not anti Catholic…but open to it.

          • susan

            Now sit. 🙂

          • DeusLoVult

            Roll over and BE dead. 🙂
            (my lady)

          • susan

            Ahhh….just when i was having fun….and no i am not peeking. 😉

          • DeusLoVult

            Good, my lady….now, I’ll count to ten, and turn the rabbits loose. 🙂

          • mspip

            seems like something is not right with that girl.

          • DeusLoVult

            No, my lady, she has chronological history denial syndrome. She should consult her history books for help right away.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        None of her posts have any correlation to the article.

        • Jeff Benton

          You got that right… She is a mess…

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Do YOU believe that the Protestant reformers were authorized to change scripture?

      • DeusLoVult

        Ah, I was wondering when you would arrive, my lady. Don’t worry, you’ve only missed a little bit of the show. 🙂

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Just took a break from working on my Shroud article, I needed a break – this article is hardly going to provide it.

          • DeusLoVult

            What do you mean, my lady? Nice, relaxing conflict isn’t improving your day? I’m enjoying it. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Obviously, I am late.

          • DeusLoVult

            Only a little, my lady. A lot happened in so little time. Can I get you anything to make you comfortable? Domaine de la Romanee Conti? How about Chateau Pétrus Pomerol? 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks, neither go well after a dinner of pancakes and eggs ;(

          • DeusLoVult

            Nonsense. Alcohol goes well with any meal, my lady. 🙂

          • Julie LaBrecque

            HAH!! I had milk instead.

          • DeusLoVult

            That’s fine, my lady…..but who am I to use this $5000 bottle of wine on, if not ladies like you? 😉

          • Julie LaBrecque

            ‘Flattery will get you everywhere.’ Perhaps, over some dunce’s head?

          • DeusLoVult

            A fine way to spend $5000 dollars, my lady. Am I supposed to drown my sorrows with a cracked skull and broken glass? 😉

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Save for later.

          • Grandmere

            Boo! I just got home. This was quite a read.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Hope you didn’t plan on turning in early tonight – better be burning midnight oil tonight. Ah- it’s Labor Day tomorrow! No work!

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Me too…. Welcome 🙂 . This reminds me of all the stupid arguments i’d have with my Dad’s side of the family, all the ‘Baptists are the real church folks’, who know no history, or the Bible. Sad really.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            If you could get me your email address through a mutual friend, I have an idea for a fund raiser for RC that I would like to discuss with you.

          • Grandmere

            I will contact you in a minute from another location. Get ready.

          • Countryflowers

            Maria ?

          • Steve Smith

            if you would like help ? i can help you with it in byzantine art.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            That would be awesome, I intended on using painting/depictions to prove that the Shroud had to be seen for such art to be so accurate. Thanks.

          • Grandmere

            Do you have Trevor’s e mail?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Yes

          • Steve Smith

            you can reach me here [email protected]

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Thanks, have you in my email.

          • A Shroud article? Where are you posting it at so we can copy it and post it here.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I am still working on it, will let you know so you can preview it first.

        • Countryflowers

          Walid how many names do you write on here under ?

          • Catbr

            As though he would answer this question from you.

          • Jeff Benton

            This reply gets the most idiotic reply of the night award…
            Congrats on your award there oh bright one…

          • Countryflowers

            Thank you

          • DeusLoVult

            His own.

          • Countryflowers

            Right….

      • Grandmere

        Good one.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          I do have his email

          • Grandmere

            Cool. He knows what to do.

  • Julie

    This is great article and is already drawing good responses…

    • DeusLoVult

      And great discussion, my lady. I’m quite enjoying it. 1000 up-votes to your comment. 🙂

      • Julie

        Lots of replies coming up…this is great!

        • DeusLoVult

          I’m loving every second of it, my lady. 100000000000 up-votes to THAT comment! 🙂

  • Maria

    When the naive cannot refute the subject, they change it.

  • Linda Murray

    Poor Walid. He’s straining at gnats & swallowing camels in this mixed up, gobbledy gook of an article. Not even addressing most of the things that matter on the subject.

    “Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yehuda is a friend of mine. ”

    Well… I guess that makes you an expert then. There;s one of them ‘camels’ I was talking about. It doesn’t MATTER if you call Him Jesus… Yeshua… Yehoshuah… Joshua… Esus… WHATEVER.

    ANYONE who says you MUST call HIM by a certain name & you MUST pronouce it correctly… is in gross error. There are MANY in the Hebrew Roots movement that do that.

    BUT… there are MORE in it who DON’T do that! So why blame the ones of us who DON’T? Why lump us *IN* with those wHo DO?

    “Hebrew is the language of the Jews. Period.”

    AHEM! Genesis says OTHERWISE! God created the paleo Hebrew letters… & used them to create… CREATION. It is a SUPERNATURAL language. Each letter is a ‘packet of information’. If He chose to destroy even ONE of those letters… the entire creation would collapse!

    “The major, one million-drachma question to ask is this: if divine authority is linked to Hebrew, why is it that the Almighty saw no sufficient reasons for Christ or any of His apostles to write the New Testament in Hebrew to even choose the Greek pronunciation in calling the Savior the way the Greeks do: “Iēsoûs”?

    Who of the detractors can answer this Jesus style question? None.”

    MUCH of it WAS written in Hebrew ORIGINALLY… then translated INTO the Greek. It’s been PROVEN BY scholars who’ve worked on the dead sea scrolls, the aleppo codex… & many OTHER manuscripts… at the universities in Israel.

    And *I* ALSO was a friend of Zola Levitt. What’s the point of that?

    You need to speak with Nehemia Gordon who wrote… “Hebrew Yeshua vs. Greek Jesus”. He served in the position of Provost of the Karaite Jewish University. He ALSO worked on the Dead sea Scrolls & the Aleppo Codex.

    FORMER Pharisee… (Rabbinical Jew but now a Sadducee type Jew… DOES NOT follow talmud or ANY extra Biblical texts like the Rabbis do… ONLY follows total OT)… Nehemia Gordon, a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and Semitic language expert, explores the ancient Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew from manuscripts long secreted away in the archives of Jewish scribes. Gordon’s research reveals that the more “modern” Greek text of Matthew, from which the Western world’s versions were translated, depicts “another Jesus” from the Yeshua portrayed in the ancient Hebrew version of Matthew.

    Gordon will educate you on the TRUTH of God’s Word!

    • DeusLoVult

      How about…..THE FACT THAT HE LIVED THERE AND KNOWS THEIR HISTORY makes him an expert? Did that slip your mind, or did your mind slip?

      • Catbr

        Murray will come back and say he or she lived there too.

        • DeusLoVult

          She did….they way Alice lived in Wonderland.

          • Catbr

            Of course. Now that makes sense. lol

          • DeusLoVult

            It’s the only way it CAN make sense. Believe me, I know how delusion works. 🙂

          • Catbr

            No doubt.

    • Jeff Benton

      Are you reffering to Shem-Tov’s Hebrew Matthew???
      Havent looked that up in years… But I was working on a problem in Matthew when it came up…
      Cant remember much about it other than it might possibly help clear up one minor contradiction in Matthew…

      • Countryflowers

        Bill miss you on GLC

        • Jeff Benton

          Who is bill and what is GLC???

          • Countryflowers

            Ha ha ha

          • Jeff Benton

            No really… what on earth are you talking about… Who is Bill and what is GLC???

          • Countryflowers

            You look like Bill Cloud

          • Jeff Benton

            Well I looked up Bill Cloud and I looked up GLC…
            Just for your info, It is the first time I have ever seen them…
            So the answer would be no… I doubt either one of em miss me…

          • susan

            She has a warped mind.

          • Grandmere

            GLC? Must mean Gay and Lesbian Coalition. Bill is her secret troll contact.

          • Jeff Benton

            LOL!!!! Great to see ya Grandmere 🙂 🙂 🙂

          • Grandmere

            Back at ya. We all need to break out our secret decoder rings and out this evil consortium.

          • Jennifer

            Should we call the green lantern? 🙂

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Ah, Nehemiah Gordon, the Kairite, those spiritual sons of the Sadducees….

      • Countryflowers

        Better then being sons of the devil

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          Now I know you are ignorant of facts even in your King James Bible. Do you know who the ‘Sadducees’ were? Jesus opposed them, they denied Angels and the Resurrection, for starters. The Kairites are a survival of that sect. They were of those that Christ would’ve called; sons of the Devil. Read your Bible where St Peter warns the ignorant and unstable against private interpretation of Scripture.

          Mind you, I have my own problems with the Roman Church, but not about all this nonsense; I know too much history to fall for the baloney.

    • You’ve always been someone who chases after the wind. I know I should not waste one second on this, but what the heck. The Hebrew Roots followers are the easiest to be deceived (like you of course). Its so easy to prove it too. Show me one historic or archaeologic body anywhere who would ever approve of anything Nehemia Gordon claims. Do me a favor, examine another huckster named Ron Wyatt. Had anyone discovered any ancient manuscripts of the NT that were authenticated, the archeological world would have jumped all over it. Do me a favor, stop drinking out of the fountains of medicine doctors. So tell me, God allowed the “hidden manuscript” to remain hidden for 2000 years? I read many books that claim stuff like this. The problem with these books is that no one, I MEAN NO ONE from the archeology community supports it because it FAKE. Also, PROVE that NG is who he says he claims. Any articles in biblical archeological review? Any articles in ANY Archeological magazines? NO. NOTHING.

      • OrthodoxKGC2015

        Purely scam artists, they are.

      • Grandmere

        Thanks, Chef. I hope you nipped that one in the bud.

  • Maria

    Now thats a fair assessment of the Shoebats 😉

  • Countryflowers

    Walid I love to watch Jack Van Impie. Did he have a stroke ?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      You are the one that puts to much in man. Stand on Jesus alone.

      • Countryflowers

        Did he have a stroke.

        • Julie LaBrecque

          Ask Jesus.

          • Countryflowers

            I will just ask you Maria

          • Grandmere

            Maria will consult with Walid and get back to you. Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

          • Countryflowers

            That’s life

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Isabella and Ferdinand were responsible for the Edict.

    • Trevor

      I would really, really like to smack John Hagee and Mark Blitz’s “Blood Moon” documentary for deliberately omitting this fact from their documentary, and blaming it entirely on the Catholic Church. Don’t care if I break my hand smacking their hard head.

      • Grandmere

        John Hagee has sold out to the Almighty Dollar.

        • Trevor

          And he is also beginning to Judaize his congregation as well. I have noticed the change recently.

          • Grandmere

            Yep

          • Julie LaBrecque

            He looks like an over-stuffed turkey when he was parades around in the Jewish Tallit.

        • Kamau41

          Big Time. Very scary……

      • Julie LaBrecque

        I have no respect for Hagee, he’s nothing more than an obnoxious wind-bag out to reap a financial bonanza.

        • Trevor

          The row between Hagee and Biltz about the Blood Moon bonanza should be enough to discourage people from furthering the hype.

          • Julie

            The Blood Moons only speak to the Jews…there is no acknowledgement of them in the liturgical year at all…just feasts of Christ’s life, Mary’s feasts and those of the saints. New life in Christ.

        • Grandmere

          Money, money, money, money – MONEY!

          • richinnameonly

            Are you singing “For the Love of Money” by the O’Jays? Loved that song.

          • Grandmere

            Opening lines from The Apprentice.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            And ditched his first wife for a younger model.

          • Grandmere

            And it didn’t even make a ripple in the pond.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Nope – if a priest did the same thing, Newsflash.

    • colin

      and the catholic priests wanted it

  • Julie

    Your position misunderstood…no.

    Have you heard of the conversos, the murranos of Spain…Muslims did it as well to stay…they pretended conversions to stay in Spain. No they did not convert.

    Problem was civil dissension and disharmony and sacrilege and blasphemy.

    I was at a Mass in Seattle years ago to visit a priest friend in the inner city. And we both noted a woman with boots coming in, going to communion and stomping out with the Eucharist..and then had to be on guard no host would leave.

    Now….people had to begin to receive on the tongue…or stand before the priest until he saw the host consumed.

  • “I know you do not want the Roman Catholic Church to be identified with the great prostitute of the book of Revelation. No Catholic wants that. However, that makes it very difficult for me to accept your understanding of Saudi Arabia / Mecca being the great prostitute because you have a vested interest in defending the Catholic Church, as you have done in your article.”

    To make your case in a court of law, you need to first establish that the RC is the prostitute. Then to claim that a person has a “vested interest” might mean something.

    • Grandmere

      There will be a lot of people pleading a lost cause at the last Judgment. If they can’t present a decent argument before a Chef, how will they argue with God?

  • Julie

    And likewise the Church was not hearing of the abuses until later…things were going through Torquemada….who was a Jew himself. When they found out…they got hold of the situation.

    So far, all the events people have pointed out to me have been done by temporal rulers acting on their own, or a bishop and a monk awol from a monastery..inciting people to massacre Jews as what happened in the Rheinland and Danube at the beginning of the Crusades…with the pope and bishops demanding they stop.

    When Catholics kill as such, they are automatically excommunicated.

    Where you find out the perspective is to see when the pope, given full disclosure of an event…along with the bishops then makes a decree.

    In actuality, the Church took the position to exonerate and teach and explain truth from heresy.

  • Julie

    That title, is an emotional one but has no bearing until the next life. The Church has said we are not the kingdom of Christ, we are not the True Israel…although individuals have used it emotionally.

    there is no fulfillment until the New Jerusalem spoken of in Revelation.

    You have to look at objective sources. I am recommending Catholics in my parish have a catechism in every home as well along with their bible.

    If you got a copy, it would show you our actual beliefs.

  • OrthodoxKGC2015

    As do I, Thanks! 🙂

  • theophorus

    As an ex protestant who became catholic this year, it’s insanely ignorant comments like ‘sun god’ that make me smirk.

    • Rexlion

      It’s a reference to the sunburst-shaped monstrance into which the host is placed at times. But yeah, I agree, it’s quite a stretch to see ‘sun god’ in that. Chick gets carried away.

      • Julie

        Jesus was also seen as the Rising Sun in ancient times…think of the times they lived in, such darkness….and to have Mass in the middle of the night and then when it was ending, to see the sun begin to shine….

        Chick is the main culprit in our country who is creating so many false charges and the atheists are buying into him as well. I personally am wondering about him being sued…but the Church will turn the other cheek as it has done all down through time.

      • Dave Knapp

        Meh

      • Julie

        How about phrases in Scripture, in psalms, …like the light breaking forth…God coming through for us…

    • Grandmere

      They always fall back on that sun god nonsense.

      • Dave Knapp

        Sun gun

      • Woody

        Where yo ben, baby?

        • Grandmere

          Arguing with Catholic bashers. Don’t you just love your old Anglican grandma?

          • Woody

            Yes, glad you are here; I just read last night that Anglicans have the true bible and they never changed it like Luther did.
            I think it was also “Congregationalists” whatever they are they also kept the true bible.

          • Grandmere

            See there? You learn something new everyday.

    • colin

      you should educate yourself

      • Julie LaBrecque

        SON

        • AnthonyM

          YES! They simply don’t understand the difference between sun and Son, yet want to lecture us on what is right!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Just a way to get a cheap thrill.

          • Dave Knapp

            Julie thinks she’s god…,

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You act like the devil.

          • Kamau41

            Your real BIG problem is PRIDE.

          • Grandmere

            Amen

      • Julie

        This is Jack Chick type, the fake jesuit — kind of calumny.

        do you know anything about the commandment, do not bear false witness against one’s neighbor?

        I have studied the history of liturgy, the ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’ by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger…plus liturgical catechesis, liturgical year…under my bishop in authorized classes…and this is sheer bunk.

        I am not watching it if it is going to use a particular monstrance that resembles the rays of the sun…there are all sorts of monstrances out there that don’t even look like that.

        This is a blasphemy towards Christ present in the tabernacle.

        You are drawing to such..you should look at yourself…what church do you belong to so I can debate it…or why hide?…let’s be fair..

        what kind of church do you go to that calumniates, slanders and doesn’t even get its facts straight?

        I am sorry but this is very very very bad…pray for you and those who think as such…it is evil.

        • colin

          How can you say the facts are not write; when you haven’t watched it?

          • Julie

            Because it is the same old stuff.

          • Do you not get that most people here know about this trash, and have refuted it ad nauseum for years? Yet you people are sick, like tape recorders, unable to think or reason, and worse, accusing others of what you, in fact, peddle.

          • Julie

            I would have escorted them out.

          • Woody

            I agree; I was thinking the other night; “no wonder Rudy doesn’t enjoy being on this site when I see the same errors over and over again; yet once in a while a see a glimmer of truth helping. mostly because we post “sources” and they do not since they have none. Who is more reliable Luther and friends or the early Church Fathers who walked with the Apostles…100 vs 1517?

          • Julie

            I finally did…pagans take on the Church..I responded underneath..so what kind of religion are you into…what is name of yours?

          • colin

            Christian

          • Woody

            see Luther, et al and compare

          • Julie

            liar.

          • colin

            So you ask and I tell you – when I became a Christian after a short prayer in my bedroom a physical wind that blew on me; then I sat up and spoke in the language of heaven. 3 months later I went to a church meeting in which God spoke to me for 1-1/2 hours, I can remember looking at the people around me and asking do they know that God is speaking to me.

            I didn’t go back to church for another 2 weeks but when I went back I find out that God had been told a man in India to travel to a small fishing town in Scotland and to go the Pastor door and knock on it and tell him that God had sent to preach at his church. When this man of God preached his life sounded just like mine that he was suffering from a curse on his life. After he finished his sermon he asked for those he wasn’t walking a righteous life to put up there hand and he would pray for them, At which he asked if we could stand up as he prayed for us I was knocked to the ground by an unseen force that hit me square in the chest. From there I was surrounded by the church elders and the Indian preacher who proceed to cast out a devil from me. I will always remember the taste in my mouth as that foul creature left my body.

            A few weeks later ex-triads from Jackie Pullenger church in from the walled city within Hong Kong came to preach they prayed for my deliverance from drugs. Nothing happened in the meeting but when I went home by myself the love of God swept over me and I just lay on my bed and wept as Jesus just let me know just how much he loved me.

            The drunk, drug taking, violent, womanising fisherman was gone.

          • Julie

            Please your so called videos were so insulting to me…I am a highly educated person and am equal to you. They are so false, so maligning … they are evil.

            spirits must be tested. You have absolutely no idea how off base you are and the effect this kind of thinking is having on y our immortal soul.

          • colin

            Have a look at St Peter Square in Rome tell me why there is a wheel shape and a obelisk at it’s centre .

          • Julie

            I told you not to communicate. you are drawn still to pagan, very self righteous, and do not have any sense of Christ’s humanity…they mean nothing…you are watching too many kook shows….you need healing you need to be directed to the Truth of Christ who will set you free.

            Do not communicate with me because what you say is profoundly wrong and abusive…take your hatred and maledictions which are from the devil …and put them at the foot of the cross. you are in bondage and don’t realize it.

          • colin

            Open you eyes Julie – as it’s a Pagan Sun wheel right in the middle of St Peters square in Rome.

          • Julie

            What did I tell you?…I follow Christ, not your pagan concepts.

            Get lost.

          • Rapheal Sebastian

            Congrats you have just played yourself into the hands of atheists and agnostics spewing and regurgitating the rote learnt spurious swill of anti-Catholics without any historical knowledge, probably your ignorance of thinking that St Peter’s Square only existed when the Catholic Church started using the Vatican as it’s center. Here is a short history of the area and how things and the architecture came to being. Read on only if you are ready to have stupidity blown away from your mind and start thinking logically. Also spare me the round cakes offering diatribe, Semiramis and Nimrod and all other SDA and anti-Catholic horse manure. IF you fall for that and believe it all, then you must also believe that Jesus, the Savior is a myth, since the story of Hercules’ birth is similar to that of The Lord, go ahead I dare you to say Jesus is a myth! I bet you would not dare to see the similarity and come to the required logical conclusion as you did for all your placing of some sort of hidden message or agenda for the architecture, statues and buildings in the Vatican.
            Read on to remove stupidity.

            Almost everybody has seen the famous Egyptian obelisk at the center of the St. Peter’s Square in Vatican City. Either you visited Rome, or you watched it on television when a new pope is elected or for example during Easter. But what is the story? Why has this particular obelisk been erected here and what is the connection with the Vatican?

            First I want to point out that there are many kinds of obelisks. Some have been quarried in Egypt, but many have been self made. Currently there are only 28 Egyptian obelisks standing in the world. Only 6 are standing in Egypt, 13 in Rome and the rest is located around the world in cities like New York, London, Paris and Istanbul. The Egyptian obelisk which is now located at St. Peter’s Square is often called Vatican Obelisk. It is not known which Pharaoh has constructed it, but it is assumed that it was erected at Heliopolis around 2500 BC. Around 30 BC the obelisk was moved to Alexandria by Emperor Augustus and erected at the Julian Forum. In 37 AD Emperor Caligula ordered the destruction of the Forum and the obelisk was shipped to Rome. It was placed on the central Spina of Caligula’s circus, later called the Circus of Nero. Much of the circus is under the basilica and square, the original spot for the obelisk is near the present-day sacristy, south of the basilica. The Circus of Nero was not only used for chariot racing, but also for countless brutal public executions of Christians, who were blamed for the big fires in Rome in 64 AD. It is believed that the apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were crucified in the Circus. The obelisk remained there for 1.500 years. Then in 1586 Pope Sixtus V decided to have the obelisk moved a few hundred meters to its present location, in front of the construction site of the (new) St. Peter Basilica. The question is what motivated Pope Sixtus V to erect the 25 meters (82 ft) high phallic pillar on the center of St. Peter’s Square?

            Actually the idea of moving the obelisk came from Pope Nicholas V, but was never succeeded. Sixtus V, who desired to recover and restore statues and obelisks in the neglected city of Rome, was challenged by the idea of Nicholas V. At that time many believed that those who would adore and pray to an image were likely to believe the god represented by it was alive in the stone and watching their behavior. Probably Pope Sixtus V also believed this and that is why, after the obelisk was moved and before the cross was placed on top, he conducted the ancient rite of exorcism against the obelisk. After that he casted sanctified water upon the pillar in the form of a cross and spoke, “In nomine Patris, et Filij, et Spiritus sancti. Amen” (“In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen”). The text of the exorcism is carved in Latin into the western and eastern sides of the base of the obelisk.

            The obelisk was moved by engineer and architect Domenico Fontana. It took over 900 men and 140 horses more than 5 months to move the obelisk and pull it upright. Fontana did a good job and the obelisk still stands, in fact it is the only ancient Egyptian obelisk in Rome which remained standing since Roman times. It remains a mystery why the obelisk has no hieroglyphic inscriptions.
            Nowadays three different coats-of-arms can be found on the obelisk. Its base is adorned with four lions and some bronze eagles while at the top hills and stars can be seen. The lions refer to Sixtus V, the eagles (only added in 1713) to the Conti family of Pope Innocence XIII and the hills and stars belong to Pope Alexander VII‘s Chigi family. Recently Pope Benedict XVI revealed that the obelisk is in fact a huge sundial and that can accurately indicate midday thanks to a granite meridian and marble markers embedded in the square.
            Not everybody likes the obelisk, but we all agree that it has great history

          • Woody

            Right on; he follows Simon Magus, not Jesus (but he does not even know it)

          • Julie

            He just came back wanting me to look at sun god stuff…flagged him…sicko.

          • Julie

            I flagged him…but he is like acting obsessed with me trying to for upsetting things on me…I flagged him but wonder now what to do….

          • Woody

            Flagged? Report him to Walid; he knows so little i think he may be a little kid.

          • Julie

            Yes…then lose interest….

          • Woody

            I’m giving up on your buddy too; some people are just dumb, and nothing can be done for them.

          • susan

            All of my answers to his question had arrows to lead him to truth about the Queen of Heaven but Colin is dumb or a deceiver so i gave up.

          • Dave Knapp

            Catholicism is a corrupted –well, I wouldn’t use the word church to describe it….it sure isn’t of any relation to the true early church though…even the church fathers would be appalled at what it became after the 4th century….

          • Woody

            You missed most of Walid’s well researched studies complete with “sources” which you never post; you have never read the early church fathers…you can start with Eusebis History of the Christian Church complete with the 29 pope’s martyrdom under the Romans.

          • Julie

            Why bother coming here to agitate people…I studied early church history, the history of liturgy and how it developed…you are not demonstrating anything .

          • Woody

            Confused? What is write?

          • Grandmere

            Many people have posted such on many occasions. We are all well aware.

          • Woody

            The Jesus rule; one who lies about minor things will lie about major things. Same as one who follows men rather than Our Lord and His “Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”

            What does “write” mean; is this Arabic or something?

          • colin

            Where does the Bible say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Rev 12, Psalm 45:9-17

          • susan

            Collin will probably deny it Julie. He’s a trouble maker. He has poop all over his shoes and he will track it all over your house if you keep conversing with him.

          • Colin, I responded to your sun disc argument in detail. Your communion bread is a square and it reflects the Ka”ba. Also the Jews have a square box on their forehead which looks like the Kaaba. Would you tell Jews that they worship Allah and the devil?

        • Dave Knapp

          Yeah yeah yeah..,.

      • Catbr

        Did you hear this guy on the video? He said, “the priest’s costume” as though the priest is dressed up for Halloween. lol Yes, doesn’t everybody know that catholics in reality worship the sun and they’re just a bunch of pagans? Oh yeah, and the video also says that catholics saying the dove is the holy spirit is just an excuse. Lots of humungous lies circulating out there.

        • Julie

          Halloween costume? The priests vestments are following the same disciplines as the Lord dictated in Exodus.

          Before continuing to make yourself look totally off base, why not spend time reading and reflecting on Exodus 28, 29.

          • Catbr

            Once again I was being sarcastic about the video calling the priests vestments a costume. I thought it was funny because of how ridiculous it sounds. Most of my comments about this video is sarcasm because of the lunacy of that video.

          • Julie

            I can tell by the decrepid description…that reflects on the ignorance and prejudice of this person…hiding his malice under the veil of religion.

          • Julie

            Yes…was too rushed and yes. you were being sarcastic.

          • Woody

            “off base” it is long too late for this

          • Grandmere

            Wait a second, Julie. Go back and read Cat’s post again.

          • Julie

            I interpolated Colin’s with Catbr…the combo effect in SM..short term…I was disgusted with ‘utensils’….I think Catbr already got back to me…will clarify with h/her.

            I am not computer savvy…as things continue to come out and shed light on alot….I saw a synopsis of all Luther’s 94/5 theses..and it blew me away….he literally dismantled the church…so when I got back to you…I was trying to say, ‘Hey, Grandmere….get a load of this…in CAPS..’ and you thought I was communicating something else…

            I am also now learning to text after so many years…My first name begins with a k….and my daughter who is edgey…sent me an email starting not with Mom but with k…and I got mad telling she is not to call me but only as mom…we are not on the same level…and my son told me she was only saying OK.

            Thanks for letting me know…will get back to Catbr

          • Grandmere

            Now that was a funny story.

          • Julie

            k.

          • Julie

            I thought he was remarking on their language…studied Exodus…know all details put into temple, priest vestments, and so on…referring back to the dodo sungod charge.

        • Julie

          Or the utensils….

        • colin

          Don’t you know that all true believers are members of the Holy Priesthood so that you can declare the praises of God who called them out of darkness..

          • Julie LaBrecque

            But can they confect the change of the Bread to Flesh and Wine to Blood? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

          • colin

            Have you stopped taking your pills again?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Sounds like you have a pill problem.

          • colin

            No you…

          • Grandmere

            Maybe a relapse.

          • Grandmere

            That’s okay. sis. Remember what Chef did to that troll who called me a drunk? Colin is not long for this world.

          • Kamau41

            Are you diabolical cognitively?

          • Grandmere

            Some people are so twisted they actually get their kicks from this.

          • Grandmere

            His ” testimony” was very disturbing on several levels. You may have touched on the truth there.

          • Woody

            Nonsense only priests created Christ and passed on by the Apostles with the laying on of hands can hear confessions and consecrate the Eucharist; no that Satan worshipers only steal Hosts from the Catholic Church for their black masses because even they know they contain the Body and Blood of Christ; they never would steal from the Prot churches because they only have bread and wine or grape juice which can be bought at any supermarket. In fact Julie was recently at a black mass protest which collapsed

        • Woody

          Truth; one Pope Fabian (19th after Peter) was elected when he walked into an election and a dove landed on his head; if you had any education you would know the dress types come from the Old Testament

          • Grandmere

            Woody, don’t smack Cat. Smack Colin. Cat is on your side.

          • Woody

            What is a cat? Did not sound like it????????????????????

          • Grandmere

            Catbr

        • Grandmere

          I thought to myself, “What do they think about the dove at Christ’s baptism?” Oh, yeah. They don’t think.

        • Julie

          Hi Catbr….I saw your leading remark…then jumped into Colin’s lack of judgment …so yes….got your intent. I am not trying to talk to this guy anymore…

      • Julie

        total falsehood. Just by the title alone. And your attitude and position promoting such calumny.

      • What stupid garbage this is.

      • Kamau41

        ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!!

      • Julie

        Shameful. halos are round always have been…doesn’t mean what these folks think…I did look at it and stopped half way….what do they want…have images of darkness all around the church?

        Talk about looking for things that are not there…the dove is the symbol of the Holy Spirit…’This is my Son of Whom I am well pleased…’ The Theophany at Christ’s baptism…the Heavenly Father’s voice…and the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove over Christ.

        Pagans seeking paganism.

        Wish they would stay out of our churches…and they don’t identify their association either.

      • Dave Knapp

        Way to kick the hornets nest

        • Julie

          To desecrate with blasphemies…is sin….

      • Julie

        How many times do we read in the psalms and Scripture the Lord come like a shining light..

        This is the most ridiculous unsubstantiated and ignorant thing I have ever seen…

        Shameful people..they are not Christ oriented…cult.

      • I responded to this in detail. Did you get my response?

    • Dave Knapp

      Bleh

    • Woody

      Yes, it is stupid

  • Countryflowers
    • Jeff Benton

      Do you even read the links you post???
      ” Archbishop Dolan stressed that the Pope had not shifted the Catholic Church’s position on same-sex unions.

      “It wasn’t as if he came out and approved them,” he told the NBC television network in the US. “

      • Countryflowers

        “Last year, Francis echoed similar reformist comments on gay marriage,
        saying he would tolerate some same-sex civil unions, though not
        marriage.

        • Jeff Benton

          In an interview last week with Corriere della Sera, a leading
          Italian daily, the Pope stressed that the Church continued to regard
          marriage as being a union between a man and a woman.

          • Countryflowers

            We can not go against God’s word and “tolerate some same-sex civil unions”

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Do you ‘Tolerate’ something when you think that you yourself can do nothing about it at the time? Yes or No?

          • Countryflowers

            no I tell the truth

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            No, you’re not even now. You and I both prudently decide not to stop some bad things from happening in order to keep even worse things from happening all the time, and you know it.

          • Countryflowers

            like what

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            You know what

          • Grandmere

            She is too stupid to understand what you were saying.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            I thought of saying an example like the time my grandmother wanted to swat my behind when I reached to touch a lit oven burner when I was 4, but let me touch it so I never would be curious about fire again….

            But I sense something else, and a wave of nausea came over me.

          • Grandmere

            That is an untruth.

          • Julie

            That is written in stone…in Natural Law…and bishops are preparing to go to prison and even die in public for our faith…

  • Countryflowers
    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Hmm… A Pope gives a crappy personal opinion, and it isn’t enshrined as doctrine by the Roman Church? Lol, You’ll have to do better than that. I almost feel like helping you write better arguments against the Papacy for you, but us Orthodox and Papists will work everything out without input from Westboro Baptist Church or whoever else you get your ideas from.

      • Jeff Benton

        I think you are onto something here…

        Maybe that is a new tactic??? Make those of us who know how to make a point, and know how to admit when we are wrong, teach her how to come prepared with links that actually make the point of her argument instead of refuting her own argument with the links she brings???

        Maybe she has had such a poor track record at making a point she is bamboozling us with blatant error so we will turn and show her how to make a good argument!!!

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          Lol, I sure like your pretzel logic, jeff, I think we’d be dangerous if we worked together;-)

        • Grandmere

          You can’t fix stupid. You have to have a modicum of intellect to work with.

          • Julie

            I am just going to try to be friends with her…saw her disabling the subject last night…alot of people got off…

      • Julie

        He definitely isn’t gifted with public comments. We are praying for him to not talk so much as he confuses people after you find out what he really said…had an east coast Italian visit our home and simply said papacy is most powerful office in the world and you have to adjust to its calling…P Francis thinks to just be himself…cannot do that anymore…just like Trump cannot be going around calling people stupid.

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          I am of a mind that he knows exactly what he is saying and has a reason for why he says things the way he does. He is not a Liberal; he is a Jesuit, and that’s a ‘horse of a different color’.

          • Julie

            Well…I was raised by Jesuits…all orthodox…he is Latin American…prefers to be among the poor. I have a friend of whom is consulted by American bishops and has attended fellowship with them here and at Rome. He was at some gatherings a few time and saw P Francis there before he became pope.

            Asked what he was like…and Francis does not speak English well either. Friend said he was a wall flower…I questioned again…wallflower…didn’t speak to anyone, just watched people..

            I think he was watching the Curia for a long time..his sister said he had a personality makeover when he became pope…he speaking in manner of correcting like the poor do, so the poor understand what he is saying.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            ‘Watching’ is a good word to use. I am saying in a non-partisan neutral sense that P. Francis has-I am sure-made an analysis with Jesuit logic and training and education about what must be done in Rome and worldwide concerning the Roman Church, and as in particular a Jesuit Pope, there are and will be significant implications for the Roman Church and the world.

            I’m not saying anything sinister or conspiratorial, but pointing out that this is the moment which every Jesuit for hundreds of years has worked for and desired in their hearts and minds, and they will make the most of it, and so will Pope Francis. Even if this is fully a spiritual war going on, Pope Francis is thinking-because he was trained to be-as a General of an Army.

            Liberals of all stripes will be very disappointed, to be sure, of that I am certain.

          • Julie

            My friends told me about a Jesuit who taught at this new super Catholic university in California…the priest…Fr Schuler?…he ended up in Waldport OR. He was like my old pastor…I will try to look him up for you.

            I am thinking of him now…and an old Jesuit taught me Tanquerray…spelling…started Skid Row in Seattle..looked like a old shoe…very penitential outlook on life…………..

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      ‘Tolerate’ means in the context; ‘There’s nothing we or I can do about civil unions anyway, Italy and most of the rest of the world being secular representative democracies and all’.

      • Julie

        Exactly. Same what my pastor said.

        But the trouble comes when they want the Church to change its beliefs…and that is the next step of the homosexual/atheist movement…to force the Church their beliefs…

        We are just being quiet…standing with our bishops because they are the one authorized to uphold our teachings at local level…and they know they could be executed in next 15 years or so…next step for now is prison…like we are now seeing in Kentucky.

  • Grandmere

    I’m glad you got the truth here.

  • Countryflowers

    Well I see I’m not welcome here Good bye Walid. Remember the locust are coming.

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Bye ignorant woman who can’t prove her points and so runs after a passive-aggressive snit….

    • DeusLoVult

      The truth is only unwelcome to the ignorant mind.

    • Kamau41

      BYE, BYE…..

      • Countryflowers

        CAN’T TAKE TRUTH ?

    • Catbr

      Oh please don’t go. We all need your vicious insults and input.

      • Countryflowers

        OK I’LL STAY

        • Julie

          Yes…you should stay and think about what people are saying to you…they are trying to help you. You don’t see it…yet.

    • Grandmere

      Don’t let the door hit you on the way out,

      • Countryflowers

        NO LOVE OF JESUS COMING FROM YOU

        • Grandmere

          Not one drop has ever come from YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Countryflowers

            you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. I came with truth

          • Grandmere

            I don’t even believe your story about sight problems. You are too quick on the draw when you want to be.

          • Kamau41

            NO. You came with slander.

          • Julie

            Countryflowers….you have given us links by those who have same issues…the pope taken out of context.

  • Catbr

    I’m glad you are so holy and righteous so as to have nothing to do with that hellish catholic church “who’s roots are in sun god worship”. (sarcasm) I wonder what church (or cult may be more appropriate) do you belong to which is holier and more knowledgeable than a 2000 year old church?

    • colin

      I am a called out one – I am a member of the body of Christ first establish in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost…

      • Catbr

        What is a called out one?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          He is full of himself.

          • Catbr

            I can see that now. lol

          • colin

            Just proclaiming what scripture says about a christian…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            A Christian receives Christ’s Body and Blood.

          • colin

            Keep taking those pills…

          • Kamau41

            Keep plunging deeper into the hole. Realize though, you are doing this to yourself.

          • Woody

            Un-education is a scourge of our society

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You forgot your own story line.

          • colin

            no you

          • colin

            What was it again…????

          • Woody

            oh, no! On top of no education now we have senility setting in

          • Woody

            That’s for sure-the Last Supper and John VI and like the latter Protestants still walk away from Our Savior and note that he did not go after them, instead sticking with our first pope and the other first Bishops

          • Julie LaBrecque

            They’ve been blinded by the father of lies.

          • Dave Knapp

            News flash….these people aren’t Christian…..they’re catholic……the two are not the same….. Wheat and tares, man.

          • Woody

            Again, you are not educated and still miss Ignatius of Antioch 107 AD

          • Woody

            You have a defective bible; 7 whole books missing?

          • colin

            Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible

            Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.

            None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

            The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

            The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion. The Roman Catholic “Church” is not Christian).

            The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

            The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Any proof that they weren’t written in Hebrew, or are we supposed to believe some more rubbish from you? FYI – fragments of Sirach IN HEBREW were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls – as well as 4 fragments of Tobit in ARAMAIC and one in HEBREW. Care to share any other falsities with us?

          • colin

            Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. This means that they are the ones who understood what inspired Scriptures were, and they never accepted the Apocrypha.

            Jerome, who translated the Latin Vulgate which is used by the RC church, rejected the Apocrypha since he believed that the Jews recognized and established the proper canon of the Old Testament. Remember, the Christian Church built upon that recognition. Also, Josephus the famous Jewish historian of the First Century never mentioned the Apocrypha as being part of the canon either. In addition, “Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and the great Roman Catholic translator Jerome spoke out against the Apocrypha.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You have half-baked truths – Origen quotes Wisdom: “Morever, as scripture says ‘God has arranged all things in number and measure (Wisdom 11:21). St Clement (AD 80) quotes Wisdom and Judith; St. Polycarp (AD 69-155) quotes Tobit. Would you care for more? Josephus DIED in AD 101 – 3 centuries before the Bible was Canonized – how would he know what happened 300 years after his death?

          • colin

            Many are fond of saying that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove the Septuagint. In fact the phrase “the Dead Sea Scrolls proves” is used to justify any number of ideas that have nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is nothing about the Septuagint in these scrolls. There are no quotes from the Septuagint or references to it. None of the Dead Sea Scrolls mention anything about the Septuagint.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Are you blind – or can you not read? Would you like for me to supply a litany of quotes from the Ante-Nicene Fathers from the Deuterocanons?

          • Julie LaBrecque

            David prayed for/to the dead – try again.

          • Kamau41

            Totally.

          • Grandmere

            Hebrew Roots. Just outed himself.

        • colin

          ekklēsía – people called out from the world to God, the universal body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You deny Christ’s Church.

          • colin

            No I deny a church that mis-represent Christ’s Church and the gospel…

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You are from the devil, back to your chains.

          • Catbr

            lol.

          • Kamau41

            Nice rebuke to Colin.

          • Proof?

          • Julie

            How does your church support that? What is its name?

          • Kamau41

            And that accurately describes you.

          • Catbr

            This sounds a little like the Jehovah’s witnesses. They think they will be the only ones who will be saved. This is not right.

          • colin

            Here is what the catholic church says: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.. “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

            Sound cultish just like the JW’s because it is..

            The name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

          • Actually, the Apostolic Church held and holds to that, because Jesus made it very clear He was forming ONE church, not your bedroom cult.

          • colin

            Let me finish it for you – the Apostolic Church held and holds to that – belief..

            Christianity is not just another religion propagating an ideology; The essence of Christianity is Jesus Christ; the essence of Church is Jesus Christ.

            The so-called “church fathers” of the first few centuries of Christianity had already reduced Christianity into moralistic and ethical religious rules and into creedalistic concepts of correct content of thought.

            They so quickly let go of the dynamic life of Jesus Christ as the
            essence of Christianity, and allowed it to become merely a
            belief-system.

            The Roman Emperor, Constantine, solidified this static concept of Christianity even more in the early part of the fourth century. Constantine wanted to unify everything – government, economics, religion, “Christian thought”, etc.

            He organised the Nicene Council in 325 A.D., bringing
            together these philosophically-based thinkers, theologians,
            to develop a rigid expression of “Christian belief.” They
            compressed “Christian thought” into logical propositions of
            truth and orthodoxy and called it the “Nicene Creed,” to
            which everyone who was called “Christian” was to give
            mental assent, or be regarded as a heretic.

            By 325 A.D. Christianity had been perverted into a
            formulated and fixated belief system, demanding devotion
            to its doctrine. This process was progressively developed in
            the institutionalized Roman or Latin Church.

            Christianity is not a belief-system. Christianity is Christ!

          • More of your laughably bad slop. You don’t get it, do you? You post outright lies, ignorance and heresy, and you expect to be taken seriously?

            Please, keep entertaining us.

          • Woody

            You still call Jesus a liar; when He guaranteed 100% authority to Peter and the Apostles, “Whatsoever you BIND on earth I WILL BIND in Heaven; whatsoever you LOOSE on earth I WILL LOOSE in Heaven.” Nothing stronger than that,AND “I will be with you UNTIL THE END OF THE AGES.”
            If Christianity is solely CHRIST you would not pick and choose only the words that fit your heresy; Catholics affirm ALL of Jesus WORDS.

          • Grandmere

            I think he may have gotten some bad pizza that night.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I was thinking bad acid, but, pizza, that’s nice.

          • I’m in agreement, Grandmere. This reeks of bad indigestion.

          • Julie

            You are not telling us the name of your religion…its actual name, because you innately sense it is not based on solid teachings.

          • colin

            I am a Christian

          • Woody

            Isn’t that what JUDAS SAID?

          • Grandmere

            SNAP

          • One of the beauties of the comment forum is that one can actually take the time to expound on one’s beliefs and discuss them in clarity. It’s a mark of shame that so many of these people use slander, half-truths, quotes out of context and lies to attack and denigrate things they aren’t bright enough to understand. I get that. Stupid is as stupid does. However…

            Would it not be more credible if these people would actually explain who they are, what they believe, and why they are here? The Lutherans seem to grasp this concept. The Anglicans who show up here are adept (and some of them truly lovely people). The Calvinists, for my disgust with their theology, are not stupid people, and will say how and why they came to their opinions.

            It is only Hebrew Roots types, non-Trinitarians and these basement cult ‘church’ losers who can’t be bothered to name their denomination.

            It’s best to simply ignore them.

          • Woody

            Not really, Catholic’s do not believe in the heresy “Once saved always saved.” proved by us as we follow St Paul …” we work out our salvation in Fear and Trembling.” not too confident is he this holy holy man; Judas disproves the once saved nonsense also and see again the hundreds of Lapsi in history

          • Julie

            Do you know how many takes there are on what makes Church? pages…

          • colin

            I could write in a few lines…. but your talking about the catholic church while I am not..

        • Woody

          Looks like “out of the closet nut-job” but give credit he is not afraid to show his ignorance, which then again is stupid

        • Grandmere

          Walid is gonna call him out any time now.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Called out for what? To trash Christ’s Church? How do we know that you aren’t the anti-Christ?

      • Catbr

        You must be careful of these small cult like groups. Seek the truth.

      • You’re not called out of anything but an insane asylum. This is exactly the sort of cultic thinking that leads people to Jim Jones-type behavior.

        • colin

          Just repeating what scripture says about being a Christian if you don’t like get on your bike…

          • You obviously can’t read, then, as no church of note would take what you have to say seriously.

          • Julie

            Are you a JW or SDA or one of those coming out of online cult groups?

      • Julie

        That is the Church of Jerusalem that went into diaspora to various different Catholic churches. No from sounds of your sources…you are one of those coming out of the American Stone Campbell movement of the 1800’s…

        • colin

          No – Julie the catholic institution with it system of beliefs hadn’t been created by then, but Christ and his Apostles did warn us that it was coming.

          • Julie

            liar

          • colin

            Come on Julie if you really loved the truth; then you would at least look at things from all angles.. rather than just name call..

          • Julie

            dumb dumber….or just plain stupid….get lost with your sungod.

  • Tom_mcewen

    There will be some grinding of teeth with this one. Greek is the perfect language for theology. Too bad that KJB people can not understand that, White’s head will come off.

    • Trevor

      What I learned about Greek is the extreme accuracy of the language. Example, there’s 8 ways of saying love with eight different level of “intensity,” if you will.

      Eros – named after the false god of love, used in word like “erotic.” It’s false form of love.

      Philos – brotherly love. Where the name Philadelphia came from, supposed to mean “City of Brotherly Love.”

      Apage – a love so intense it is demonstrated when one is willing to lay down his life for a friend. Jesus done that at the Cross.

      Thanks to my Southern baptist preacher grandfather for that lesson so many years ago.

  • Countryflowers
    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      This is how sad and Pharsaical you are; Bergoglio said;

      “When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn’t be marginalized. The tendency [to homosexuality] is not the problem…they’re our brothers.”

      In other words, if they accept the Lord and are working with God to uproot the evils in their life, as all sinners should, they are fine. If they are part of a Lobby trying to push their sin on others and force acceptance of it, they are not.

      Is there any part of that that you would disagree with as a Christian? Tell the truth.

      • Countryflowers

        YES ! God has judged homosexuality as SIN !

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          You’re not very bright and shouldn’t write or speak in public, i’m sorry to say. I even gave this to you; Francis basically said that Sodomites who repent, work with God to fight their sinful inclinations are to be praised and worked with, while the Sinful Lobby who promote the sin cannot be approved, and you don’t even allow for a repentant Sodomite in your midst, free of that sin and praising God?

          • Countryflowers

            if they repent then they are a sodomite no more

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Stop the Presses! Do you just now realize that you and Pope Francis ARE IN AGREEMENT?!

          • Steve Smith

            some fling mud at me for saying the same thing they think we should kill gays.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            People say lots of things, but they should remember all fall short of the Glory of God, and all are called to Repentance.

        • Grandmere

          And God hates those who sow discord among the brethren.

          • Countryflowers

            Telling the truth of God’s word us “sowing discord”.?

      • Steve Smith

        the pope and patriarch are in agreement on this.

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          As am I.

          • Grandmere

            Add me to the list.

      • I would have to say I agree as well. I was eaten alive about 10 months ago when I tried suggesting the same thing here on a post (about what I cannot remember.) It’s probably because I did not say it as eloquently as Bergoglio. I was also trying to make the point that many who denounce the homosexual forget about all of the other sexual sins Paul denounced along with them (as those who would not enter the kingdom of God.)

        • Grandmere

          That’s right. Heaven forbid they speak out about their fornicating children.

        • Steve Smith

          they fling rocks at me too. i posted what patriarch kirill said on the subject.

        • Here I write this entire essay for Vinny and Vinny is discussing homosexuals.

          • Hi Walid, will not Jesus Christ be all in all? I was actually discussing being Catholic. Didn’t St. Athanasius say that where the Jesus Christ is so is the Catholic Church? If Christ is all in all and where he is so is his church, then would it not follow that Christ and his church will not only touch the lives of homosexuals but transform them? This was what I was commenting on. Look closely at what Ortho said, “if they accept the Lord and are working with God to uproot the evils in their life, as all sinners should, they are fine. If they are part of a Lobby trying to push their sin on others and force acceptance of it, they are not.” This is what I was agreeing to.

            Sorry life has been so busy right now, wish there was more time to write, sorry it took 11 days to respond. Thank you for a well researched and thorough article. God Bless you friend.

          • jim gazay

            Hi vinny, you can contact me on fb James Gazay.

          • Hi Jim I did get your messages. Thank you and we will be in touch.

        • jim gazay

          Hi bunny you can contact me on fb James Gazay.

          • Cannot find James Gazay, I’ve tried contacting “Jim Gazay”, not sure if that is you?

          • jim gazay

            Bunny, not sure why you can’t find me on fb (James Gazay), not Jim Gazay on there, he is my distant relative. You can text me if you like (319)423-5557. Try that. Look forward from hearing from you!

          • jim gazay

            Vinny try my cell number (319)423-5557 can text me.

          • jim gazay

            My comment is pending Vinny, sorry for the delay.

  • Countryflowers
    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      I just saw an article, your article, basically say that Liberals HOPE Francis will be their Pope.

      Not the same thing as him BEING their Pope.

    • Jeff Benton

      http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/

      The Catholic
      Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality
      and same-sex relationships, but teaches that homosexual persons
      deserve respect, justice and pastoral care.

  • Countryflowers
    • Jeff Benton

      Type this into google oh brainless one… —>>> “The Catholic Stance on Homosexual marriage” <<<——-

      There you will find out just how ridiculous you are making yourself appear…
      Just trying to help you out before you accidentally come across a valid view of the Catholic Church and how they believe marriage is only between a man and a woman, and throw yourself off a bridge in shame and humiliation…

      • Countryflowers

        your leader is for gays

        • Catbr

          You’re gay.

          • Countryflowers

            no HAPPY

          • Catbr

            I know you no happy, I said you’re gay.

          • Grandmere

            Well, they do say “ignorance is bliss.”

        • Jeff Benton

          You are in error…
          Go here and find out just what the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops says about the whole ordeal in minute detail…

          I will have to warn you though… You will have to read a lot of writing AND comprehend what is written….

          Good luck…

          http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/same-sex-unions/

          • Grandmere

            For someone with poor eyesight, she sure manages to devour a lot of crap in the internet.

          • Countryflowers

            I took Susan’s suggestion and bought a magnifying glass

          • Grandmere

            You can’t type while holding a magnifying glass. I don’t believe you.

  • Tom_mcewen

    The French were occupied by the Germans for five years and shot 50,000 of their own citizens for supporting the Germans, Spain was occupied for 700 years and the moors were driven out aftsr 129 major battles, you don’t think the crown would want some payback. Read what the moors did to the women of Spain.

    • Trevor

      Or read how the Muslims forced the Jews to wear yellow turban and to bow so low they had to kiss the feet of the Muslims. History repeats itself because nobody would be bothered to read it and learn from it!

      • Grandmere

        Tell it brother. By the way, Julie L. wants to talk to me. does she have your e mail?

        • Trevor

          Yes, and I received her email last night, only checked my email this morning. Did you change email address?

          • Grandmere

            No change. Give it to her. Thanks, brother.

      • Julie

        The Golden Age of Cordoba was no golden age..both Jew and Christian were second class, wore a green badge, not able to be witnesses in court, could not prosletyze their faith, Spanish women used for sex…could not build new churches or synagogues….

  • Steve Smith

    ok… this thread is not about the pope. so every body stop!!!!!!!! and write about the topic please……walid has pot lots of work on this so lets respect him,

    • DeusLoVult

      Too late for that my Rusky friend. It’s chaos as usual. Nothing’s quiet on the Western Front. 🙂

      • Steve Smith

        i was in hope of greek words

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          I’m hoping for ‘Theosis’ myself. My thoughts have become vain, I feel.

          • Steve Smith

            vespers was long i’m worn out.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Christ forgive! I missed my vespers to indulge my vanity. Brother pray to the Lord Our God for me.

          • Steve Smith

            you got a candle brother,

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Christ Bless!

        • DeusLoVult

          I don’t any of those…..is this easier for you?

          Πολύ αργά για την εν λόγω Ρώσος φίλος μου. Είναι χάος ως συνήθως. Τίποτα δεν είναι ήσυχα στο Δυτικό Μέτωπο

          • Steve Smith

            i listen to this

          • DeusLoVult

            Hey, Greek IS cool! 🙂

          • Steve Smith

            get your english translation bible and fallow along. that is how i learned.

          • DeusLoVult

            Do you speak the language as well?

          • Steve Smith

            yes but i’m getting rusty,most greeks sound like tukish accent, my godparents did not like pontian greek.

          • DeusLoVult

            I have always wanted to learn Hebrew…..I like it. What is Pontian?

          • Steve Smith

            northern part of turky along the black sea

          • DeusLoVult

            Ahhhh…..that place of great dispute for so many years….I know Russia isn’t too happy they control the territory.

          • Steve Smith

            there was a population exchange between greek christians in turky to greece and moslems in greece to turky. in the 1920s

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            I guess that would be around Trebizond around the Black Sea? Ah see you answered elsewhere.

          • Steve Smith

            right, they lost the h sound it’s now ah like turkish.

          • DeusLoVult

            That would have been right after their war with Turkey, correct?

          • Steve Smith

            yes, lots of people died.

          • DeusLoVult

            Yes…and a lot of Greeks were enslaved to Turkey, I think.

          • Steve Smith

            strange thing happen to my laptop ,every time i reply to your comment .the window would vanish. i see were you used a traslater. but it us quite good….. russian is even harder to put in english ,there is no equivalent. for some words.

          • DeusLoVult

            I’m having problems as well….stupid disquis. Yeah, lol, I had to use the translator….it’s never perfect, unfortunately, and the quality varies depending on the language.

    • Jeff Benton

      Well steve…. My Popcorn is all gone anyway… I guess I can quit refuting the Pope bashers…

      • Steve Smith

        i was thinking of you when i put up the vid of the liturgy.

        • Jeff Benton

          Thank you so much… You have also now afforded me the time to stop bashing the bashers and watch it 🙂 🙂 🙂
          Thanks so much my brother… gotta take 5 and I will be right back to watch it…

          • Steve Smith

            just ask if you wish to know somthing….. did you see the candle stand?how jewish is that.

          • Jeff Benton

            The next vid was this one… I am around the 17 minute mark… Lots of good practical stuff so far…
            Perfect for a newbie like me to get to know some of the thoughts of an Orthodox Priest on matters of life…
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOysP4bJZw

        • Jeff Benton

          Ok Steve…. Got her open now… See you in a little over 30….

          FOUNTAIN OF IMMORTALITY – Meditation on the Orthodox Divine Liturgy

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2qSeiTCfI

          • Jeff Benton

            Awesome and very Beautiful…

          • Steve Smith

            this was a very small church in the u.s.a…..russia, wow standing room only.

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Well, an article like this which contradicts their cherished errors about the Bible and brings out their inner ‘Anti-Catholic/Anti-Orthodox’ bigot, and they bring out their stupid lies about the Papacy and pretty much everything else. Fact is they created a ‘Paper Pope’ which needs a select class of Ministers to interpret, of course…. So they are more Leader-Cult oriented than any other kind of Christian, ironically enough.

      • Julie

        I pray to Almighty God for charity….I am at breaking point many times…getting to be old woman.

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          As do I need charity badly, especially as I am puffed up in my false knowledge.

          • Julie

            They spend alot of time devouring anti Catholic positions…with no idea of seeking out what we truly believe either.

    • It is usually the case. I spend several days working on a topic and then it is as if I have thrown it to pigs. But believe it or not, there are a few who convert to sheep.

      • Steve Smith

        ha! love it brother.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Can’t refute the article?

  • Derek, it is. Have you read Maccabees? The question should be is Maccabees Bible? If it is, what then will you do? Thats the real issue.

  • Countryflowers

    Walid its been fun tonight

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Scandal and division among Christians is ‘funny’? Get out Satan!

      • Countryflowers

        I HAVEN’T HAD ANYONE TO ARGUE WITH IN A LONG TIME.

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          I a sinner and numbered among the goats and refuse, I rebuke you in the Name of Jesus Christ.

          • Catbr

            lol

          • Countryflowers

            And you call me a slander

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            No. You boast of your desire to argue, where I felt my own sin in the matter and am sorrowful for my sin, of showing my intellect instead of love, in my estimation of myself.

          • Countryflowers

            it is best for one not to think to highly of ones self

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Truth!

        • Grandmere

          You call a couple of days a long time? Sheesh!

        • Julie

          Have you read St. Paul’s admonition not to get into vain arguments?

          What was the topic of this article? The Septuagint, not your impressions.

          • Countryflowers

            How can anyone come on this site and not argue

          • Julie

            You throw out a few things and refuse to read what people are trying to share with you.

    • Kamau41

      So what is so funny? So you call slandering Catholics funny? You are a very REAL sick, vile, diabolical person.

    • DeusLoVult

      Has it been? Didn’t notice any comedy in all the insults and ridicule you posted.

    • Catbr

      Funny to insult another’s religion. Weirdo, heathen.

    • The really slim shady

      Hang in there. Work on your content.
      Your heart is in the right place, but you’ve come to a gun fight with spoons.
      These people aren’t your run of the mill Catholics, they actually know alot about their faith.

      You’re going to have to go to the sources to dispute them, and even then, they probably won’t believe you.

      I found this. Clement of Alexandria is a hoot.
      http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

      • OrthodoxKGC2015

        Yes, one can learn from st. Clement of Alexandria, were one humble and faith-filled like a child.

        • The really slim shady

          Didn’t really mean “hoot” in a good way.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Someday perhaps you might.

          • The really slim shady

            Hes got a very Greek philisophical outlook on Christianity. He also speaks extensively about Gnosticism.
            Ive just began reading the letters in the web page, but pretty much all ive read by Clement has been about Gnosticism.

            I dont really see my view changing. But i wont say they will not.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            His ‘Gnosticism’ has nothing to do with the Gnostics falsely called, who only knew of Satan, but of the actual Knowledge of God, knowing and loving and living Him.

            He uses technical philosophical language to draw puffed up intellectuals like me away from the stupidities of false knowledge of God that Satan sows.

          • The really slim shady

            I get the context of the letter (I am referring to the Stromata, as it’s the only one I’ve actually read through so far).

            It’s definitely a book written to people of a higher intellect – and focuses on arguing that reason proves God and Christianity.
            I found myself having to reread things multiple times, and sit there and really think about what he was saying. So i understand, it’s written to intellectuals.

            And I have no problem with 99% of what I read in the Stromata. I have only one dispute with it at all actually, and that’s this:

            “On this wise it is possible for the Gnostic already to have become God. “I
            said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” And Empedocles says that the souls
            of the wise become gods, writing as follows: “At last prophets, minstrels, and
            physicians, And the foremost among mortal men, approach; Whence spring gods
            supreme in honours.”” Stromata 4:23

            That’s a weird thing to say if you ask me, whether you’re intelligent or not.
            What I gather reading chapters 22/23 is that a true gnostic follows God – because God is good and right. And a gnostic should want to be good for goodness’ sake – and not for fear of punishment, or hope of reward.
            So where then does this come from? That the gnostic can/has/will/might/ever can “become God”. That looks more like an ACTUAL gnostic teaching than a Biblical teaching to me.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            What he is talking about is the actual goal of any true Christian, becoming by grace, given illumination to become, adopted sons of God. Not in His Essence, which is impossible, but in His Energies, which is the goal, to be caught up into the Life of the Holy Trinity.

            Don’t let the abuse of the term ‘gods’ or ‘Gnosis’ by heretics throw you; God wants us to share in His Life, to be gods indeed. “Is it not said that ‘ye are gods, all of you sons of the Most High?”

            Satan can make his errors so seemingly close to the Truth, his spiritual deception. And so you must now know that both sides, the True and the False, use the terms ‘Gnosis’ and ‘gods’…. But by this fact it does no good to throw out the Baby with the Bathwater, because the Christian goal is still the same even if you change the words.

            God Bless,

            OKGC

          • The really slim shady

            Id beg to differ with you.
            I dont come away with grace when i read it, i come away with knowledge.
            Which is the pursuit of the gnostic – to know. To seek hidden truth. He is mostly explaining in the Stromata is God and His Word really are that hidden truth.

            He is saying here that being intelligent already makes you God. He doesnt say “like God”. Thus he goes on to reference the other quote that says philosophers and people of the sort become gods.

            I think what you said is right, but i dont think hes saying the same thing you are.
            I could be wrong, id have to read more things from him to be sure.
            One thing i do know; it doesnt make enough of a difference, what he believed, for me to analyze it like its scripture.

            Just seems like he took his gnostic ideas a bit too far.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            No, you’re confusing his ‘Gnosis’ which is the Orthodox perception of the Uncreated Light of God and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, with the foul ‘Gnosis’ so-called, of those who thought a magical ‘knowledge’ could carry them past the Archons of the Material Universe and all that other nonsense.

            What Clement is saying is that perception of God, His Revealing of Himself through a chastened and disciplined and illuminated understanding (which ISN’T discursive rational Logic!), enables one to know God. And knowing God is possible only for those who are called to be the sons of God, to be as He is in His Energies, His Glory.

            Read more, fast and pray, and you will see if you are humble.

          • The really slim shady

            Also, who is this “ye” that the psalmist is referring to?

            “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
            But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” Psalm 82:6-7

            When you read Psalm 82, you see that the “ye” are the nations.
            Arent all men going to die like men? Why does the psalmist mention “ye”‘s man-like death?

            This verse doesnt say that a man is a god.
            We are, however, a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people – children of the Most High Jesus.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Children, I am sure you’re aware, resemble their parents, and so shall we, by adoption. You are refusing to see because of the language blinders caused by the misuse of perfectly good terms for things.

            And it has come to my notice that indeed, men need to be reminded that they are men, and will die as men, and that they are gods, should they be joined to the very ‘chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people-children of the Most High Jesus’.

            Get too far into the iconoclasm of words, and people find themselves in the Unitarian denial of Christ altogether, as in Islam and Judaism.

          • The really slim shady

            The psalm is about nations.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            The psalm is about mankind; nations are composed of men, whose collective identity is emphasized. Jesus Christ Himself gave the meaning, else His retort to the Jews would’ve meant nothing.

            Don’t let obscene and ignorant Mormon polytheism and misuse of holy language, lead you to the inhuman monotheism and unitarianism of Islam or Judaism. God is drawing us to Himself, and if this is so, then we are called to be like Him, ‘gods’ ourselves, but to Him alone be praise.

            The Angels in Heaven are called ‘gods’ for the same reason; they see God, and chose Him, and are thus joined to Him, joined when they accepted the sight of the Incarnation of God into history, shown to them. And this is what Lucifer rejected…And was the moment of his rebellion.

          • Julie

            Clement was not into secret knowledge.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            You’re right; he was into spiritual maturity, understanding the mysteries of God when the right combination of study, prayer, mortification of the disordered passions illuminates the soul with the Glory of God.

            The understanding of the things of God truly is effected by sin, and so sin must be removed.

          • Julie

            Christ died for all so that all may be saved.

  • Countryflowers

    forgive me everyone. i do love you all

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      Pray for me to the Lord Jesus Christ

    • We love you too Country Flowers.

    • Grandmere

      Pray for me, a sinner.

      • Countryflowers

        Go to Jesus yourself. He is always there to hear our prayers

        • Julie

          I love you in Jesus!

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Want to explain why so many pious Jews have converted? Rabbi Israel Zolli? Jean Marie Lustiger? Charlie Rich? Theodore Ratisbonne, Alphonse Ratisbonne, Edith Stein, Rosalind Moss, Roy Schoeman, Lawrence Feingold, Augustin Lehmann, Joseph Lehmann, Hermann Cohen, Bob Fishman….

    • I’ll happily add James Bernstein to this list.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        I didn’t quite have his name etched in my brain yet, thanks for reminder.

    • colin

      Deception

  • Julie

    I keep thinking of the Dominican who gave his ‘take’ on the Book of Revelations…I mean every period of time can relate its events to the Book of Revelation…he saw false teachers as locusts with power to sting souls…I would think the same of bad Muslim imams and communists.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Getting ‘closer’ to God’s word was not the reason – it was so they would have prominence in Government.

  • Julie

    Don’t know him.

    Do know Shane Shaetzel…got permission from him….would like to put out once a week to faithful…common misconceptions evangelicals have of Catholics, a former evangelical himself….He answers clearly and concise. I am hoping we have our own parish ‘Catholic Answers’…there was a big hit on Christmas for the past two seasons saying the Church took it from paganism.

  • Julie

    I read one time as well that the Protestants were a punishment to lukewarm Catholics.

  • Rexlion

    Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

    This is not from the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy, but from
    Psa 117:1 O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people.

    • Julie

      The third and last dogma of the Church is Mary’s assumption into heaven, 1954, P Pius XII…an extraordinary and gifted person. Assumption means, we assume…

      The God we believe in is the God of order and not chaos.

    • Julie

      The Church has always had an immediate acceptance of any decree by any pope, this the work of the Holy Spirit. And likewise, bishops then rise up to disagree in God’s time and then there is a going back and forth, to come to the final conclusion in any dispute.

      Many Catholics do not understand papal infallibility that was not declared however until 1856. It is the first dogma of the Church. What it is, the pope looks on the faith of the people, convictions of faith long held since the Church’s beginning. He then is prompted to make a dogma. A dogma contains the sense of Scripture. What he must do is consult all the bishops in communion with him. If they give the pope full consent, then he can make a dogma and this dogma is a profession of some element of faith that the faithful have always believed.

      After this dogma, came the second, the Immaculate Conception, Mary conceived without sin. The theologians of the Church have argued down through history about Mary’s conception and how could she not be created with Original Sin, as was her parents, Joachim and Anna. The point though is that the faithful have always believed since the beginning that Mary was conceived without sin. So when the dogma came about…it canonized so to speak what already people privately believed.

      The third dogma of faith is Mary’s assumption into heaven. Note the word, assume. Mary was conceived without sin. She did not sin. The wages of sin is death. It is a mystery in how Mary died. Only what we know from Eastern orthodoxy was that Mary’s passing was shocking…no more details. We don’t know if she actually died or went to sleep or was gloriously assumed into heaven.

      This last dogma of Mary is the last one. There are no other points of faith the Church has held all down through the ages.

      The public always talks about Catholic dogmas…even President Obama, but we have 2,865 doctrines.

      Now as there are no more doctrines or dogmas to define, where the popes speak to us are in pastoral letters, not all carrying the same weight of truth….these called encyclicals.

      Your local diocese is the one to communicate the ‘weight’ of an encyclical.

      The pope is not a god, but the main pastor of the Church and the sign of unity among the Church.

      Papal infallibility is in no terms whatsoever the pope is like a music conductor or someone calling all the shots. When in doubt, consult the catechism. Rather, papal infallibility along with the bishops….are to take the position of God’s Servants…they serve us, not the other way around.

      Hope this helps.

      • Rexlion

        You miss the point of my post. The point was, the Catholic Church claims that it is constant, unchanging, and infallible in its dogmas, yet it has changed (in some cases 180 degrees) over the centuries. Therefore the church you follow today is not the church of the first or second century. This is what happens when a group prefers tradition over the written, inspired Word of God.

        Despite this, the devotion shown to the Catholic Church by its adherents is like blind fanaticism and worship of the church itself. Any critique is met with intense indignation and closed minds.

        • Julie

          The Church has developed. I read of a young woman who was raised in an anti Catholic family and got hold of an catechism. She compared it to one used today and saw the consistency of faith and morals.

          So I have no idea what kind of church you are in either. What is it?

          I explained what dogmas are….only 3 of them…two in 1856 and one in 1954….defining belief already believed for 2000 years….

          I cannot say we are blind fanatics by a long shot…my pastor said to a protestant minister seeing the diversity of people attending our own parish…how there are as equal as many different opinions.

          Forget the use of dogma..it doesn’t pertain as such to your allegations.

          What doctrines are you talking about?

          Have you a Catholic catechism in your hands….see the footnotes to each doctrine showing reference to Scripture and Early Church Fathers, to the saints and councils?….this comprised the work of many people and many years..and much labor in seeking truth in further establishing Christ’s Church.

          What doctrines have changed?????????????

          I would think the American sects are most narrow and anti Catholic.

          They see people as you as their ‘Catholic trophies’…

          Locusts…the power to sting souls…blinding….bondage…that is what false teachers do.

          No the Lord, never left us to be on our own for 1850 years until American sects came about…do you see the lack of reason here? Have you studied the drs of the Church..I don’t see how you can call them fanatical because of their innate use of reason.

          What are the changing doctrines?

          And what about SS Peter and Paul that exhorted people to stay with their teachings and traditions…how faith is lived out in context of the Church, not bible alone.

          I would also go back to the intent of this article.

          • Rexlion

            So, you’re saying the Assumption of Mary is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church? it’s merely a dogma? Seems like semantics. Do you not find it alarming or at least suspicious that the Assumption was declared heretical by the early church but then declared ‘dogma’ in 1954? Does that not constitute a significant change in Catholic teaching, impacting the way its members pray and believe?

            Consider the doctrine regarding confession. The Bible does not speak of making acts of penance, but 1 John 1:9 speaks of confessing sins and receiving forgiveness from God (no mention of a priest). No mention of penance from Clement of Antioch, Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, or Irenaeus. Tertullian wrote about penance, some 200 years after Christ ascended. Later writers Origen, Cyprian and Aphraates add info about this penance, showing us that by their lifetimes penance was practiced, but it was done only for the gravest of sins and could only be done once in a person’s lifetime. No priestly absolution was involved, even then; absolution came into vogue somewhere between 500-700 AD.

            Consider the communion elements. Justin Martyr did write of recognizing ‘the body and blood’ around 150 AD, but Hippolytus of Rome wrote about 60-70 years later in his “Apostolic Tradition” that the elements were merely symbolic. So there is definitely some doubt and variation in the early church teaching on this.
            “Then the deacons shall immediately bring the oblation. The bishop shall bless the bread, which is the symbol of the Body of Christ; and the bowl of mixed wine, which is the symbol of the Blood which has been shed for all who believe in him.”

            I attend an interdenominational protestant church. No one there even knows I was once Catholic, and there’s not a glimmer of this ‘Catholic trophy’ idea among any protestants I know.

          • Julie

            The Latin Church is a culture of administration, systematic theology. Why not look up the difference as to what is doctrine and what is a dogma…particularly because there are only 3 dogmas.

          • Julie

            Good to know you are in interdemoninational gathering.

            I spent a good number of years under my diocese studying the foundation of our faith. There is nothing in there to trick people either but the work of many under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Word of God in peoples’ specific times as well as nourish them in the sacraments.

            There are about 2,865 doctrines of Christ that bring us to the fullness of life in Him. How many doctrines does your church have and what are the aids in assisting you in living out your faith i Christ?

            Dogmas are only 3, and took about 1856 years to define. don’t you think there was alot of thought and debate behind them to finally declare them??????????? No shotgun dogmas.

            Mary was model par excellence of the Christian life and her intercession in helping Christians endure in great trials goes back to around 200 AD along with the fact Christians always held her as sinless.

            If you can turn to CCC88 to 90, it describes the dogmas of faith…The Church was given authority….and is based on truths contained within Divine Revelation or having necessary connection with them, in a form obliging Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith….dogmas are light along the path of faith…the mutual connections between dogmas and their adherence can be found in the whole of Rev elation of the mystery of Christ.

            Remember, our religion is not based on faith as proposed in text, book form…but the full revelation of Christ as True God and True Man.

          • Julie

            big difference…answering people…get a catechism and avoid second hand talk.

          • Rexlion

            Let’s boil it all down. God wants us to worship in spirit and in truth. God looks at the heart. It isn’t what we say we believe or what we do; what matters is what we really believe about Jesus. Can we agree about that?

            I’m urging people to make sure they are trusting wholeheartedly in Jesus and are genuinely loving God. Some people, deep down, are trusting in their own good life or in their church leaders or in something else. I am not saying “this person” or “that person” is believing wrong; everyone’s heart is known only to God (and to themselves, if they are honest with themselves). But I am sounding a clarion call: wake up, time is short, today is the day to examine our own hearts and our motives.

            The Catholic Church does teach that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, right? Well, that is our best guidebook. We can trust that God would make sure we had a decent reference manual to go by, because He loves all of us so much and He doesn’t want to see anyone miss out on the chance to be with Him forever. Other writings, and stories passed down orally, can be helpful sometimes… but whenever there’s any conflict between those writings and the Bible, shouldn’t we toss those traditions and keep the Bible? For example, if tradition says we must pay for a sin with penance, but the Bible says no payment can be made for sin beyond the payment Jesus provided, should we not trust the words of the Bible?

            Churches are organized by humans, and humans make mistakes. But God made no mistakes in getting His servants to write His message in the Bible.

            So my message is, let’s all look at what we’ve been relying on and believing, just to make sure we are not going through the motions of a Christian life. Instead let’s check ourselves and see that our hearts are filled with love and with complete faith in the ‘once and for all’ redemptive work. Jesus is Lord; not my church, not your church, just Jesus!

          • Julie

            I cannot compare the worship of Christ to that of bible fellowship and a preacherman who is opposed to Christ’s church and there is nothing looking of holiness in its environment.

            The Mass is the first step on earth of heaven…you cannot compare the two…people can go to Mass and they aren’t even paying attention.

          • Julie

            Sorry Rexlion to answer you in segments…very busy today was sick over weekend with an intense flu/cold and think I picked up some dust/mold working out in yard…like velcro stuck to back of throat for 4 days so painful.

            CCC102: Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time. St. Augustine.

            CCC104. In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, ‘the word of God.” 1 Thess. 2:13. In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children and talks with them.’ Divine Word 21, Vatican II.

            CCC105…God is the author of Sacred Scripture…
            CCC106. God inspired the human authors of the sacred books….
            CCC107: The inspired books teach the truth…
            CCC108: Still, the Christian faith is not a ‘religion of the book.’ Christianity is the religion of the Word of God, ‘not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living. St. Bernard. If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must through the Holy Spirit, ‘open our minds to understand Scripture’. Lk 24:25.

            The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of Scripture…
            but 3 things need to be taken into mind:

            reader must take into account the conditions of the writers of their time and culture, the literary genres of that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current.

            CCC111…”Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same spirit by whom it was written.’
            So……..l. Be attentive to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture….2…Read the Scripture within the ‘living Tradition of the Whole Church’…(not fragmented…1900 to 2000 years later..) According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart than in documents and records for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpertation of Scripture…

            CCC114…3..be attentive to the analogy of faith…coherence to the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

            You should get a copy of the CCC……….

        • Julie

          I would also add the Church must always address the times it lives in. The Church pastors its people through Christ.

          But I would review what I gave you of what the sacraments are before making future charges they are our works to get into heaven…totally off base and false statement.

          Mainline denominationals have their differences but they also can relay back to us our actual beliefs and discuss differences.

    • Steve Smith

      rexlion, sadly you think orthodoxy is some exotic branch of the late old rome.

      orthodox do not teach all traditions are the same it is clear in greek there are two words used translated to just tradition. local custom and tradition pasd on by the apostles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_A9sRf89Zc

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Afraid he might pronounce the Holy Name like Peter did?

    • Grandmere

      Now that would be a treat.

  • Julie

    He is not the best communicator…and I came to conclusion today he is not in touch with America’s middle class Catholics who are against abortion, against so much taxation, and entitlement..and open borders with criminals coming through. We are in the middle.

    • Trevor

      To be honest, I really fear for the Pope’s life. I don’t know why I do.

      • Julie

        Pray for him. He has good sense of humor…remember, he said he just prays it won’t hurt too much. He is a down home boy…pretty simple minded but doesn’t mean to be as inflammatory as he does…watch him in America.

        But the most dangerous place for the pope is always the Vatican. He will be OK here.

        • Grandmere

          He’s from South America. That says a lot if people want to think it through. Most don’t want to strain a brain cell.

  • Steve Smith

    people who reject greek as pagan, are missing the voice of god calling them. this is a byzantine hymn with english captions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RysoZGPK2JE&index=4&list=RDRwFYUJb03d0

    • Ahhh one of my favorites. So beautiful.

      • Steve Smith

        brother, i am getting reports that the turks are afraid, strange lights and sounds are coming from h’agia sophia lately .even locked doors are opening by themselvs

        • OrthodoxKGC2015

          I have heard that the priest saying the last Holy Liturgy at the Hagia Sophia disappeared into a wall or pillar, in a state of suspended animation, as the Turks entered, and will come out and finish the service someday….

          • Steve Smith

            there was actually one under the british in ww1

          • Steve Smith

            orthodox worship is temple worship. just look at the patterns of what we do in the liturgy. when the seraphim’s face was uncovered the crosses in the church are becoming more pronounced. here is a link what do you think? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2925452/posts

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            It is a Miracle!

          • Julie

            Oh…incredible…keep me posted…I am so close to asking my dr’s office to take the staked Hagia Sophia out. Many Jewish drs go there and may be carry hurt from past.

        • Julie

          Oh my ! …my soul is praying to the Lord it be returned to our people…it belongs to the Lord. That is one to share…will look on line and then share with my friends.

          After 9/11, Steve, I began studying Islam, etc…and saw more and more…………not that my prayers are causing it either…

          • Steve Smith

            the crosses are coming through the plaster even more so whem the cover was taken off the serafim.

          • Julie

            I see that as sign God is hearing us and we are acknowledging the great injustice down to the Orthodox people who have suffered so much and so many deaths….

          • Steve Smith

            this is a greek site the pics are from 20 11 i am told that they are even more clear now there is no reason that they should come through 2′ in of plaster. http://www.orthodoxia-ellhnismos.gr/2011/09/blog-post_7915.html

          • Julie

            Thanks, Steve..will keep this…was able to translate..next time I go to dr…I really want to comment on that picture of staked Hagia Sophia..horrible now that I understand all about it..saw it as child and knew nothing for years.

            Muslims such cowards to truth.

          • Julie

            God is saying have hope.

    • Grandmere

      So beautiful!

  • Julie

    Are those the Talmudic Jews who changed…it is masoretic text…but were they the talmudic jews…who came from the line of the Judeans who rejected Christ?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Defunct blog – any other great ideas? The Church does not teach replacement theology. What sect are you?

    • Julie

      Shane Schaetzel’s book is good, gone through it.

      So many times people get easily confused…thinking individuals are speaking objectively in spirit of the Church, when they are actually being emotive.

  • Kamau41

    I have been wondering about that too for years. It never made sense to me either until I started becoming a regular reader on this forum. Now I have a much better understanding.

    • Catbr

      I still don’t get it.

  • Julie

    They all know what the Church teaches, believe me.

  • Kamau41

    You have already fell deep in your own ditch.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus speaks twice that we can be thrown into a prison – and don’t get out until we pay back the last penny/debt ( Matt 5:23-26/ Matt 18:27-35). Paul refers to people suffering loss, but being saved by fire (1 Cor 3:10-15), after death, Jesus went to a prison of ‘disobedient spirits’ and preached, 1 Peter 3:19. 4:6. The School of Hillel (person spoken of in article) taught purgatory, which is purgation, (purification), after death, still believed by Orthodox Jews.

    • PaulF

      Excellent points Julie. Also, Matthew 12:32 where Jesus speaks of the sin against the Holy Spirit which will never be forgiven “… either in this world or the next.” Meaning that forgiveness, or redemption, continues in the next world.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Prots don’t subscribe to having any discipline administered to us – in this world, or the next – what do they do with Luke 12:46-48?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Any comments/refutations to the article?

  • jim gazay

    Wow an excellent article Walid. It was very interesting to note the differences between the masoretic text and Septuagint version regarding the messianic prophecies, what an enormous difference that makes in The meaning and also I have also wondered why Hebrew roots, Solas and other protestants would not employ the Septuagint version since it is quoted about 95 percent of the time and clearly is the foundation of the early church and is the glue that holds together the Church. The Wisdom of Sirac is such a beautiful book all about Jesus Christ as the word wisdom used many times in the book is in reference to our Lord Jesus.

  • Indian Christian Crusader

    I want to ask a question, I am curious and since I am a protestant I don’t know about Catholic-Orthodox relations much. The Catholic and Orthodox churches split in the 10th century. So today if a Roman Catholic goes to an Russian orthodox church, say in some central Asian country remote area, where only orthodox churches are there, will they welcome him and give him sacraments? How does the Russian orthodox church view the Roman Catholic church Western rite (Rome-Latin rite) ?

    • Trevor

      I cannot answer you on your question regarding a visit to Russian Orthodox. I’ll let a more knowledgeable person answer.

      What I do know, though, is the schism between the west and east churches were mostly over doctrinal dispute based on understanding of the Greek text. Example would be purgatory, which the Greek Orthodox completely reject.

      Sadly, it was the 4th Crusade that made the schism permanent, in spite of the Latin Pope attempt to put a stop, going so far to excommunicate the crusaders. In the last century, the succession Popes have tried to bridge and heal the divide between the west and east. Francis recently made a trip to Turkey to partake in the Eucharist with the Greek Orthodox church. I have watched the video myself. While they were being cordial, I could sense the tension between the two top dogs.

      I hope someday, all of us, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants be united soon.

      • Julie

        So many Catholics praying for this…last I heard Russia was holding back…if we had not had the Schism..the liturgical abuses of Vatican II would not have happened because of the fidelity of the Orthodox to holy liturgy.

        • Steve Smith

          blame stupid people like this greek catholic bishop. and catholics wonder at us backing away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EXdbzIDEk

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            They stick to the Roman Church, only in the hopes that they can be ‘weaponized’ against their Orthodox neighbors, and even the Latin Polish, from time to time.

          • Steve Smith

            they are like the heb roots they make it up, like they are real orthodox, just becouse you dress up like us does not male you one of us.
            just look at all the dumb ivans on youtube.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Lol, true. years ago when I still was a traditional Roman Catholic, I had become exposed to the local Uniate community. It wasn’t pretty, lol. They really do make things up as they go along, with a cautious and hidden, but strong fondness for ‘Uncle Adolf’ if you know what I mean.

          • Steve Smith

            back in pod- carpatskya they loved killing fellow catholics.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Yes, I knew some Poles and Hungarians and Latin-Rite carpathian people who said they weren’t fond of the Uniates.

          • Steve Smith

            if the pope would like us to get closer, he has to shut down the uniates

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            I think the Uniates hope that the Pope will get us all closer by making all the Orthodox pretty much as Uniates, as was attempted at Florence and Lyons in the Middle Ages.

            But you’re right; the shutting down of the Unia is an essential condition of goodwill and real desire for real unity and not subjugation.

          • Steve Smith
          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Lol…

          • Grandmere

            ROFL

          • Steve Smith

            i have 3 vids up, take a look and i would like to hear what you think

          • Grandmere

            I thought I had a comment on all of them. The one about the burial of Christ blew me away. It was so moving. I will go look for others. You already slew me with the fake Jew.

          • Grandmere

            Okay. Loved the two addressed to the Baptists.

          • Steve Smith

            it’s the fake jew ,the real jew ,and how the real jew and orthodox sound alike.

          • Steve Smith
          • mspip

            very strange rabbi

          • Steve Smith

            he is not real he is a proddie

          • Jennifer

            Who is he?

          • Steve Smith

            his name is kirt schnider a hebrew roots fake jew

          • Steve Smith

            hear the real jewish sound, sounds very orthodox, does it not.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Yes indeed, so it sounds.

            May the ‘Natural Vine’ be grafted back in, it will mean ‘life from the dead’!

          • Grandmere

            Sure does.

          • Steve Smith

            here is the russian orthodox deacon… so in your mind who is the closest to the jew.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn2UlLTHsmI

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            Truly, this is where the ‘sons of Abraham’ are, where the ‘spirit of Abraham’ is.

          • Steve Smith

            here is one that is even closer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z53KlBEK7iA

          • Julie

            I will have to look at all the videos…missed the vespers…seeing the world..my friends, all mothers I have known through the years are taking up their rosaries, Scripture, sacramentals to protect the pope…and we are becoming militant…In Mary’s way in our homes and daily duty…but we are beginning to fight now the forces of evil more than before…………

      • Steve Smith

        big bart is not the top dog, this guy is, patriarch kirill

        • Grandmere
          • Steve Smith

            grandmere, so your bishop was asked to come to the fish fry. this is no little thing to happen, russians gave up on ecusa a long time ago.

          • OrthodoxKGC2015

            good news!

          • Grandmere

            So exciting and he is the Archbishop. They love GAFCON.

    • Julie

      The Latin Church allows Orthodox to receive our sacraments but they should first introduce themselves to the priest before Mass.

    • Steve Smith

      icc, a catholic partaking the holy gifts is the priest’s ”economy” if he knows the persons heart that may happen. but non orthodox are not given the sacraments. and no russian orthodox comes to the chalice without going to confession first.
      america does have western rite churches in orthodoxy under russia and antioch. personaly i think all orthodox should worship as one body i know that anglos that come in find more comefort in western style…. they miss the fullness of orthodoxy. some western rite splinter in to small clicks and sects.

  • FF

    No wonder Jesus title in the cross was written in Hebrew, in Greek, in Roman (Latin).

  • Trevor

    That a sign they are in a cult. If they are afraid to ask questions concerning their salvation, they are perceived as rebelling and in danger of being excommunicated.

  • Trevor

    Thomas, I am in agreement with you on this line, “It is this element that the “synagogue of Satan” was a more direct reference to, namely, Judaizing Gentiles.”

    There is a high degree of consistency in the N.T. alone (sorry for going there, but bear with me a moment) where the apostles, especially Paul, slammed the Judaizers for trying to seduce Christians away from the doctrine of grace to bondage. I think of His letter to the Church of Galatia when he attempted to defeat the Judaizers’ attempts.

    Sadly, we see Judaizers today mainly in cults like Seventh Day Adventist who insist on keeping Saturday as the Sabbath and forbidding folks from eating pig meat.

  • PaulF

    I learn much from this article. It is good to have one’s Catholic faith confirmed with perspectives one never had before.
    I still feel that the church needs to be more accommodating to Jews so that they feel at ease about following their dual vocation, to be members of the church and to remain the family of God according to the flesh and the heirs to the promises specific to Israel.
    The churches are recognizing this need increasingly, but it is possible that the Hebrew Roots movement thrives because the churches need to go a good deal further in this direction.

    • Julie

      This is what Hebrew Catholic is hoping we do…through havurots…publicizing the meetings where Catholics come together to study their Jewish roots…I think of Tom Nash’s, Biblical Roots of the Mass, that was on tv last year during Lent, a 6 week series that I would love to see in our parish.

  • Julie

    The Church is binding….English culture has named Him in our linguistic sense….same for other cultures…but we all know immediately without any intro what foreign languages are accomplishing in their dialects, the holy name of the Lord.

  • Grandmere

    Well your poster boy Rob Bell does. It’s based on his “interpretation” of scripture. Your move.

    • Countryflowers

      I have never heard of Bob Bell

  • Grandmere

    21 Grams of poison will kill a person, depending on the poison ingested.

  • Kelly ann

    Holy smokes like St Catherine once said to the pope “be a man,” learn some history for once

  • richinnameonly

    I am way too slow or too busy. I check the articles this a.m. and there are already 684 comments!
    Walid, (Wleed) I wonder if sometime you may visit the subject of varying names and pronunciations for God the Father, the God of Israel, Yahweh, Jehovah, Adonai, etc. Or might there be too many comments?

    • I haven’t written on it. I do know how to pronounce the names. But what counts is understanding what is behind the names.

      • richinnameonly

        Yes, some people embrace the use of one and reject another as incorrect. Some use Lord to address God the Father as well as Jesus. Can be confusing if ones understanding of the names and terms are different.

        • Grandmere

          Lord in Spanish is El Senor. If you know Spanish Senor is also used for Sir in everyday conversation. So many people get tripped up by language.

      • Steve Smith

        scripture is not like harry potter.not like you have to say the magic word correctly.

  • If I am blind and you’r the doctor offering the treatment, why then instead of operating, you’r only giving me a summary of my disease? If you care, then you would walk the extra mile and help me out. First, try to show me line by line from my article where I went wrong? The topic was not about the Eucharist, yet you’r addressing issues that were never even discussed. Can a patient go to a dentist for a toothache where the dentist examines his feet?

  • Search and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you. Searching and knocking is a lifetime process as you well know my friend.

    • Julie

      He is speaking truth. Priests in past studied alot of logic, reason in communicating the faith as many times it is fractured souls who are drawn into sects….I did not learn about the Septuagint way that was clear when studying Scripture at the diocese in the mid 90’s….

  • Visions of a false prophet

    • Countryflowers

      Walid what’s false about it. The Bible states it will be a time like never before. That people would pray for the rocks to fall on them and kill them.

      • Julie

        the people of the world….afraid of the little Lamb of God walking along the mountain side in Revelations.

        • Countryflowers

          I have no idea what you just said

          • Julie

            The Book of Revelations…in the bible…Christ the little lamb walking along the mountainside and the people preferring instead the mountains fall on them instead of facing Christ.

          • Grandmere

            That is why you need to sit down and listen. There is nothing wrong with listening and learning.

          • Countryflowers

            Yes I listen better then I read

    • Countryflowers

      I must confess I never really liked to listen to Tl Osborn. Just something about him didn’t seem right to me.

    • Grandmere

      Another “silly woman” coming out of the woodwork to teach.

      • Its a tweety bird who lost the other half of the egg-shell.

    • Tom_mcewen

      And the apostles asked, When shall these things be? And Jesus said, it is none of your business except for Ricardo, him I will send a vision.

  • Folks who never address anything from what was written and always change the subject are not truth seekers.

    • Countryflowers

      Are you talking about me Walid ? You know I only read headlines.

      • At times you do this, but it also takes years for some to recover. I am too in the recovering process Country Flowers.

    • Grandmere

      That’s like sitting through a lecture about “The shot heard ’round the world” and asking a question about Miley Cyrus’ Wrecking Ball video.

  • As soon as one insists that “call upon the name” to be a literal pronunciation and spelling issue, then RUN. I addressed what “name” means in the article. God chose Greek to the Gentiles, NOT Hebrew.

    • Steve Smith

      ok , walid god did use greek to spread the gospel, if it stayed in hebrew it would never went as far or as fast as it did. when i saw the vid you made on the mark of the beast. i could clearly see that this was not normal greek writing, no greek would have drawn the letters like that.

  • Steve Smith

    no one is blocking you!!! it is the discus site. it takes a wile for some posts to show up.

  • Off topic. Why?

    • Grandmere

      He wants to set up a falafel stand around the corner.

      • mspip

        going to look up falafel, don’t think it is any good.

  • Steve Smith

    please explain this to me if catholic and orthodox are pagan …..it is a second century synogogue.

  • Indeed, but while we unite, we can still be open for discussion and reasoning.

  • Strange. And you’r logo carries an olive branch. Even more strange.

    • Grandmere

      What is it about people named Shep? Strange, Chef. Very strange.

  • Stephen Dalton

    There’s more evidence that Jews and Muslims have had “unholy alliances” than the Vatican and Islam.

  • You fill my heart with joy Tony and you are so right. Wish that others can tap into your soul. Do you have more detail about this issue you presented? Would love to see you’r take since iron will sharpen iron. With blessings. Walid.

  • Ann,

    A Protestant has a right to defend his faith and so does a Catholic. But some folks decide to disrespect one another. But that should not stop us from sharpening one another.

  • Wise point indeed. The signature of the Christian is to be “slandered”. So watch out from the ones who everyone compliments.

    • Smith

      Thank you Mr. Shoebat, you are far more patient than I when it comes to dealing with heretics

    • susan

      Perhaps this explains why one can get nervous at compliments. 🙂

  • Who ever said that we should dismiss everything? Just some things. Sure it said “Almah” but by no means we are saying that it shouldn’t but that we were better off with the Septuagint which interpreted it already.

  • I don’t even know what you are talking about. You are welcome now as ever.

  • Julie

    Unbelievable…how you can bypass all the historical and linguistic and anthropological truths here and instead believe in sola scriptura.

    • Steve Smith

      i cant get over the “hat’ looking like a fish.

      • Julie

        The swarm of locusts poisoning men’s souls…is how I privately interpret it..pray for their conversion..that is all we can do and penance…I just saw..JPII’s video on ‘Be not Afraid’ in English….and how we need Christ to be that much stronger…I need more time to pray now.

        I think many will be coming to this site for awhile.

        I am trying to get nerve to send a copy of this to my daughter and her evangelical in laws who make cracks about my cathoilcism for some time and when I want to share, one in the family raises her voice to talk over me…so nobody even knows my ‘superstitious faith’.

        • mspip

          they may not thank you for it or better scenario, it may cause them to begin to think instead of just following the ideas of the preacher who may be in error about a lot of stuff.

          • Julie

            I hope so..foundation of Protestantism is to protest, to oppose, and faith revolving around your way of looking at things instead of how the apostles taught us and laid down traditions to protect such beliefs.

          • Julie

            I pray but some times the insult hit me to the core of my being…I know there is an old locust biting, too. I see them as in religious bondage. My daughter’s mother in law…we love each other, we are sisters in Christ.

            But she is in to name it, claim it….and don’t say anything negative…I discuss things as you can see. But she has a superstitious attitude towards my faith…so if I try to share anything she raises her voice and interupts and has it go in a different direction…even prayed over me infront of my daughter and son in law…I had been caring for my family, my husband almost died last year…things alot better now…but it had impact on me…and anyway, I was humiliated…felt like I was a Catholic freak…don’t speak of my faith it could taint the environment with falsehoods is how I felt…….

          • mspip

            name it claim it often does not work. some of the ones who are into that are a bit aggressive.

      • OrthodoxKGC2015

        Lol… I always heard, when I was Roman Catholic, that the Bishop’s Latin Mitre was shaped to recall the cloven tongues of fire that descended upon the Apostles in the Upper Room on Pentecost.

        People who read Hislop, etc, and talk about ‘fish hats’ are ignorant.

  • 21 Grams, to defend does not mean “an attack”. For me to defend Jews and Catholics from certain falsities is by no means an “attack”. It is just that when one “defends” others paint the defender as an “attacker”.

  • Julie

    You are missing the point…people are addressing erroneous presumptions about the Universal Church.

    Christ is the Good shepherd and He never intended this all happen but we be one as He prayed at the Last Supper.

  • See my comment to you above. Now that I spent the effort to answer you, lets see how much effort will you spend to respond back. I went the extra mile, will you go an extra inch?

    • Grandmere

      After all you did on his behalf, I hope he reads it. Thank you so very much.

  • Julie

    The Church of Rome developed differently from the Byzantine….SS Peter and Paul came to Rome solely for the ecclesia. The Byzantine Church in Asia Minor was almost completely destroyed by the Roman Emperor and the Lord did not chose a bishop but a temporal ruler to save the faith of His people…He chose an emperor to fight.

    And we await a temporal ruler who will be raised up by God to fight what we are witnessing now.

    The Byzantine Church emerged both ecclesiastically and imperialistically. If there were disputes…Rome settled on side of ecclesia, never imperialistic wise.

  • Julie

    You describe a very materialistic picture of the Church.

    The Church is first to admit there was alot of need for reform. And there were movements within Germany by pastors and lay people to counter witness to the failings of such clerics.

    We still have indulgences today and they are forms of penance as was then…any devout Catholic then and now knows one does not buy one’s way into heaven. Remember, people heard the teachings of Christ at Mass way back then.

    You have to step back from the materialism and corruption and know that in spite of the sins of the clerics, the Church goes on because its life is from Christ, not man.

    And under the altar of St. Peter in Rome….in 1942, excavation was going on there…and by accident the alleged tomb of St. Peter was found…along with sign, ‘here is Peter’ along with accompanying graffiti going into 200’s on walls next to tomb. Right now the Church is still conducting scientific studies as well as the sarcophagus under the altar of St. Paul…both remains reflected the recorded manner of death of how both co-founders were martyred in Rome by Emperor Nero between 64 to 67 AD.

    There were also excesses among those in Constantinople as well.

    It was Dominican Tetzel of Germany who was out on the marketplaces selling indulgences…against Church law.

    • colin

      I saw if you sign up to the pope on twitter you could get one….

      • Julie

        don’t ever communicate with me again, locust.

  • Julie

    That is OK…but I prefer the deposit of faith and the place of Peter over the universal Church because it is through Peter the keys of salvation were given.

  • Julie

    Interesting….but we see antichrist as a jew…who could take the seat in Jerusalem when it is rebuilt…

  • Stephen Dalton

    Oh my Lord, somebody swallowed 21 Grams of Hislop and Adventism!

    • Julie

      Steve…on the side here looked at the Talmud…and the derelictions against Christ and can now understand why the Popes wanted these copies burned and to protect the property of Christians.

      Do you know though how many Jews in our country follow the Tanakh vs the Talmud?

      • Stephen Dalton

        It’s my understanding that a very small minority of Jews (usually Orthodox or Ultra-Orthodox) read the Talmud. It’s my understanding that it takes years to read through the Talmud, and many of those Talmudic students have to do it full time, and have to be financially supported by others. So the average Jew (if he’s observant) would most likely read the Tanakh. However, he would have to rely on a Talmudic student to explain it to him, because the Talmud is reguarded as the real authority in Judaism, not the Tanakh.

        • Julie

          I see, thanks for clarifying..if I hadn’t told you, it makes sense why talmudic jews in past had to be id’d to protect people and destroy derelictions of Christ in Rome. Thanks for eye opener.

  • Julie

    The problem of Vatican II was that of the German faction…and that is the warning by Cardinal Muller…to watch out for this faction that still continues to want to run and dominate the Church while the Church in most parts of Germany is seeing emtpy confessional lines and churches. They cannot direct anyone…and it looks like the spirit of the Reformation is still trying…

  • Julie

    There is a reference to a Jewish kabbala source in two lines at the Mass…but don’t know how much of it remains…

    Cardinal Wuerl and many in USA first want to see renewal of sacred liturgy.

  • Julie

    ???

  • Julie

    The theologian who had jurisdiction over Luther made the mistake of not meeting with him to discern what he had to say if it was to be further thought out.
    Luther wanted more vibrant homilies, lay people singing…but today the Church has swung too far in improvising to the point in John Paul II’s pontificate, he spoke of the serious problem in America where the priest became the show man…and so many Catholics did not like the focus on man…whether the personality and jokes of the priests or the choir next to the altar where everyone could watch them.

    The focus of the Mass is Jesus Christ, Victim Lamb, as atonement for our sins and our acceptance by the the Heavenly Father.

    • colin

      There is a video I posted earlier were you’ll see a priest in his performance costume along with his performance utensils.

  • Julie

    It is sad…so we pray for their conversion.

  • Rexlion

    Why am I not surprised? Catholic seminary doesn’t go very deep into the Bible, go figure… I’m glad someone like you had the courage to admit it.

    • Grandmere

      How would you know how deep they go? You’re a mile wide and an inch deep.

    • OrthodoxKGC2015

      You may not want anything to do with his ‘courage’ or false praise; a ‘sybarite’ is a lover of pleasure, the term is taken from the hedonistic citizens of the ancient Greek city-state of Sybaris.

    • Julie

      They go deep into bible…but they spend alot of time on reason, logic, philosophy because people cannot understand the universal Church, its constructs, etc…because of issues of philsophical and personal outlook.

      Priests teach Scripture…but it is unitive…gave you several teachings from catechism.

  • Trevor

    “the monarch of Spain was not a protestant. The problem was the comfy
    relationship between Jews and Moors under the muslim rule, so they
    didn’t trust the Jews and kicked them out also.”

    Go back and reread my comment. I said the monarch of Spain fell to the Protestantism mania.

  • Julie

    So you are former protestant. It came through in way you spoke to the Catholics and the papacy…that is how former protestants talk who are now Orthodox…anti papal indoctrination…don’t know how we relate to the pope.

    • Trevor

      Remember – the Orthodox do not recognize the authority of the papacy.

      • Julie

        What will it take to return…they all have their own patriarchs to run as well….and the local bishop has complete and total authority over his own diocese, not the pope.

        The pope has authority to call all bishops to Rome..synod council….

        Peter always has had primacy. And as patriarchs ran their own ..if they needed help in founding new churches or there was need for end of dispute, it went to Peter.

        So much of the qualms are as tempest in a teapot to me.

        The Orthodox see Mary as above all others, that she did not sin…Latins are intellectual…they define the Immaculate Conception…so what I say, another perspective..or..the Orthodox call Mary, Mother of God, Theotokos, but be cause of our proximity to protestants we do not.

        Someone told me it was mistranslations going between the two that caused the split plus grievances from past…lack of forgiveness…and different elements to deal with…mistranslations causing it. The higher ups know this…but what is keeping the Schism going is the common people…and certain clerics.

        So we pray for our reunification…do we have to be bombed, terrorized, etc. for this?

        • Woody

          Yes, and even when St John the Apostle was alive, disputes went to the then Bishop of Rome, not to St John.

          • Julie

            They say there were times all three apostles there…Peter, JOhn, James…but that is also who Christ had at Transfiguration.

            I read two articles last night that spoke to me….the issue with Novo Ordo that lost so much of the sacred and brought in a shallow expression of faith — but which was effective in Africa and other indigenous cultures so far removed from us…so simplified…they could understand. P Benedict that thought Novo Ordo a mess as well. And the Novo Ordo is a big obstacle in our reunion.

            The other as Rudy said, is the pope head of the patriarchs. I went to C atholic Answers: Eastern Orthodoxy and it was the best I read and can see now the seminary instructor saying now the Byzantine Church evolved differently and now clearly naming those emperors, etc wanting to appoint who is head of churches, etc.

            And it was the Muslims, the Muslims who made the Schism real A gatekeeper forgot to close one gate at Constantinople. Muslims came and ransacked and took over. They forced Orthodox head to be under their authority.(.with Latin history don’t think this could happen I don’t know either..) out of 100 plus…several died, others got sick, ….

            Then this is where I now see Orthodoxy falling into ethnicism…the russian emperor wanted Moscow to be the Rome of Russia…and so the Russian patriarch was formed…separate from Constantinople..and then others huddled based on ethnicism.

            And when they become ethnic oriented…they are not going to listen to anyone outside their ethnic group and i cannot call this universal Catholcism.

            It was Islam that in the end was the cause of the complete Schism.

          • Julie

            If I didn’t say it…seeing time line…there were times Pope didn’t go…he had rep…or times it didn’t happen, other times it did…

            It was Muslims who made schism final…didn’t want patriarch to be connected to Rome…and then others broke off led by Russian emperor to have his own Rome of Russia..and then several others became ethnic based churches…this a no go to me.

            Novo Ordo good for Africa but not for rest of us…we need liturgical renewal on par with Orthodox.

            leadership should be flexible..bu when it comes to faith and morals to enforce…every diocese all over the world must be on same page…we don’t toss dice to see if we follow the pope or patriarch of elsewhere…some instances we need one head so we don’t pick or choose…for example, US Bishop Council..tehy admit they vote differently as a group vs voting directly back to Rome….

          • Woody

            And when Clement was pope he was strong in making decisions, not at all bashful and he knew his role, or when Constantine wanted the Nicea Council he merely directed the Pope to call it, no one else.
            Or Peter’s 25 years as Bishop of Rome making decisions all that time; none of the other Apostles were there except an occasional visit by someone like Paul, who eventually was martyred there like Peter on the same day, one inside the walls of Rome-one outside the walls of Rome and to this day there are cemeteries there named after them.

      • Catbr

        Don’t they have their own pope?

        • Julie LaBrecque

          The Coptics do, others just Patriarchs.

          • The Pope is an honorific title, Latin for Papa, from the Greek ‘πάππας’, as in father or shepherd. Patriarch is essentially a head bishop. All are bishops in the end. Ⲡⲁⲡⲁ Ⲁⲃⲃⲁ, the Coptic form, is still in use for the Copts, but the English translation still comes out to Pope.

          • Julie

            I go by papa, personally as that is how he was called by the European Latins…’pope’ in English sounds protestant and derisive…even negative.

            Yes such a title, papa, falls in line as pope sign of unity for all, making us family.

          • Papa, like daddy, is a warm, friendly term. I, too, approve of it.

          • Dave Knapp

            No

          • Julie

            no…you are outsider not family. No.

          • Woody

            Oh, noooooo! Call no man papa, oops, or is it father? or Daddy? or -whaaa?

          • Woody

            So true…

          • Dave Knapp

            Ummmmmmm

          • Julie

            I also think there needs to be alot of forgiveness by the Orthodox for what happened in Constantinople…JPII went there to ask forgiveness…was that in Greece and it was denied. Very painful.

          • I think that those were a few Greek monks who made a stink, and therefore got all the press. Athenagoras and Pius lifted the excommunication. That part is over with. Now, we have to build to reconcile.

          • Julie

            I was reading about the Novo Ordo as a great obstacle…Cardinal Wuerl wanted renewal of liturgy…there is no good American Catholic liturgical music. My bishop finaly has new head of liturgy, took him a year.

            The other…Catholic Answers: Eastern Orthodoxy. Resonated with my seminary class for lay. Teacher said Orthodox heads would bring in imperial issues…

            Big thing it was Muslims who really caused the break. Broke into Constantinople when guard didn’t close gate. They wanted them to not communicate with Rome.

            Then emperor of Russia wanted Russia to be the Rome of his part of the world, had his patriarch..and so there came about this ethnic…vs universal character…then some others broke up as such. Then later temporal rulers wanting to pick heads of the churches.

            Ethnic issue is main complaint by Catholics.

            What is good is Novo Ordo for Africa and other places…to simplify faith and liturgy…

            But Latin Mass never intended to be removed.

            I saw some history….some times patriarchs decide with bishop, some times pope included.

            Other issue came up for me after we shared yesterday…I was reading how beginning church tried out the conciliar form of church government. Didn’t work out, so they went to having one bishop head local diocese.

            Then what we went through with American Bishop councils…compromised salt of our faith…or how a bishop would vote differently as a group vs voting directly and position go back to Rome…integrity.

            So how group consensus weakens us or we decide as protestants who we want, you will then be put in position, should I listen to Rome here on this or should I listen to Moscow or Constantinople?….so in relation to human weakness and self serving ego…I still think we need one head…may be depend on type of circumstances in how it worked before, sometimes inc Rome…other times not….but when regarding faith and morals…I think we need one head to represent our faith and practice all over the world.

            We had problems where you go to one parish. this and that is OK, not a sin or something. You go to another different position…this in early 1980 crazy days.

            So I read there are sub divisions of some sort in Orthodoxy that don’t have the same strictness we have towards morals indicated in Humane Vitae…irregardless most Americans do it and cannot see how they are contributing to the loss of those who can care for them in their old age, and likewise what our country will be like in future because so many wanted things instead of children…so they could be under Muslim areas and not have their faith nurtured in their dying days…or what kind of world now our kids and grandkids will have for their faith….

            So it is critical for survival we need uniform faith for it to be workable for me…that we all have same moral standards irregardless of where we live as universal Catholics.

          • Dave Knapp

            You win some you lose some

          • Woody

            Yes, I don”t think “Pope” wasn’t used until the ninth century; I always like “Bishop of Rome” from Peter on as when St Ignatius renamed Jesus Church to “Catholic” in 107 AD because of all the heresies beginning to confuse the flock, as Peter predicted would happen. We had Peter the First Bishop of Antioch; and James the First Bishop of Jerusalem, where the 1st Council of the Church was held (at Jerusalem). Of course the Prots added the term “Roman” to Catholic (Greek for Universal) to try and “limit” the term to a “locality” in a feeble effort to make it seem that the Church of Jesus was not “everywhere” (Catholic) found. ‘Roman” is rarely used by Catholics and neither did St. Ignatius used it thus.

          • It’s merely honorific, and has never been the official title of the Bishop of Rome. Still, it’s fun to watch people lose their mind over it.

          • Woody

            St. Januarius, Martyred – Feast Sept 19 died 305 AD

            “A dark mass half fills a hermetically sealed 4 inch glass
            container, and is preserved in a double reliquary in the Naples Cathedral as the blood of St. Januarius, liquefies 18 times during the year…. This phenomenon goes back to the 14th century…. Tradition connects it with a certain Eusebia, who had allegedly collected the blood after the martyrdom…. The ceremony accompanying the “liquefaction “ is performed by holding the reliquary close to the altar on which is located
            what is believed to be the martyr’s head. While the people pray, often tumultuously, the priest turns the reliquary up and down and in full sight of the onlookers until the liquefaction
            takes place. … Various experiments have been applied, but the phenomenon eludes natural explanation. There are similar miraculous claims made for the blood of St. John the Baptist, St. Stephen, St. Pantaleon, St. Patricia, St. Nicholas of St. Tolentino and St. Aloysius Gonzaga—nearly all in the neighborhood of Naples.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            I thought it only liquefied 3 times a year – I remember that it liquefied recently in Pope Francis’ presence.

          • I saw the vial, as my ex took me there (Naples is her home town, and the area is filled with amazing things).

          • Woody

            Nice; On October 21st the body of St Maria Goretti is coming here at the Cathedral. She is “incorrupt” and dead since 1902 but still radiant. and she forgave the guy who raped and stabbed her 14 times.

            I hope I can get by the crowds.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df838d155373f9b7fd57bee26abfe0c7c9ec064366cc58c75b539d1021b4851b.jpg

          • The title is also used by the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria. It’s a traditional title, like the Roman Pontiff’s.

        • Julie

          No….but at one time the pope did have universal authority…but tremendous divisions were coming..Council of Florence tried to prevent and the pope then asserted his position to call on unity, but the Council failed…the protestants. Swiss bishops, deeper split with Orthodox, nationalism, etc etc etc..horrible time and we are seeing its consequences.

          • No, the Pope never had universal authority, certainly not over Eastern Christians, who exerted their own authority. This exertion of Papal authority was what led to the split. The Council was quite flawed from an Orthodox perspective, and the laity rejected it entirely because of the unresolved dogmatic problems between East and West.

            This is why a council has to be called. This needs to be cleared out once and for all.

          • Julie

            Council of Florence happened just prior to protestant split….the patriarchs did exert….but came together to resolve disputes..how long this went on, I am not well versed in history, but do know the Byzantine Church developed differently with different history along with language, culture, politics, geography.

            There are already so many rites within Catholicism of different cultures…it is overwhelming to think about…

            But we should all pray for this reunification. The pope is sign of unity among all Christians.

          • I agree we should pray, and I maintain respect for the office of the Bishops of all the cities of the world. My one problem, and the sticking point for all Orthodox, will always be papal authority, which the Vatican would have to renounce, and go back to the collegial fraternity of Bishops, which would be a far healthier thing.

          • Julie

            I don’t know how he would assert such authority at this juncture as Christianity has already been decimated by division.

          • Dave Knapp

            Naaaaaaah

          • Julie

            I just sent you a piece….read some history…looks like it was not always set in stone…needs flexibility…just that when it comes down to right and wrong…one head would best represent so people don’t pick and choose what they want to believe in deposit of fiath like they do here in Usa.

          • Dave Knapp

            Guess again

          • Julie

            don’t know try again.

          • Woody

            Universal authority, of course. “I shall be with you until the Last of Days…”AND whatever you BIND on earth I shall BIND in Heaven; whatsoever you LOOSE on earth I shall LOOSE in Heaven.” That’s 100%.

        • Trevor

          More like a top patriarch. Hard to describe the organization of the Othodox. Similar to Southern Baptist, I would say, in organization.

      • Dave Knapp

        Good

    • Dave Knapp

      Uhhhhhhhhhh

      • Julie

        ???????????????????????????????? Are you understanding anything of the article or people’s conversations????????????????????????????????

  • Steve Smith

    ???? what did you just say

    • Grandmere

      He doesn’t know so he can’t tell. Ignore him.

  • Grandmere

    Where did the altar call originate? And if they don’t have an altar why do they call it an altar call?

    • mspip

      would like to know that myself. heard these frequently in protestant country church. revivals were held and the church people were encouraged to bring “sinners” to revival meeting,

  • Grandmere

    Don’t even think you can waltz up in here with your gobbledygook and hijack this conversation. It aint gonna happen.

  • Grandmere

    Oh, No! We are not going off on some tangent about Palestine or absolution! If you have a question about the Septuagent vs the Masoretic that is acceptable. Otherwise, keep quiet so the real students can ask real questions.

  • Grandmere

    Peter??? Man, that is wild!

  • Grandmere

    Yea, Tony! Way to go!

  • “Walid, I merely ask that you examine the accepted canon of Scripture ”

    Now there is a guy who either DID NOT read carefully what I wrote or even never read much. Answer me honestly, did you carefully read the article?

    Because have you done so, you would have never made this silly comment.

    Question: By WHO and WHEN was the Canon of Scripture set? Just this question alone would reveal your mistake and your error which is throughout your comment. If you like, I do not mind dialoguing with you on this. Peace.

  • Julie

    Yes….and the Mass and your ordinary village parish church fulfills the Temple.

    I recall a fr Christopher noting how the ancient temple had a sacred drain where the sacrificial blood offered at their daily sacrifice was put.

    We don’t ever throw the Eucharist away….both sacred Species…are treated as they are….Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity.

  • Julie

    All the saints warn us not to judge…you come across some Muslims…and many are hostile to you…and then one Muslim reaches out to you most humanely…then later he dies…is he condemned?

    I met an African, a pagan, who accidentally washed the money bills of the man he was working for. He didn’t steal them. He laid them out on the line to dry along with the rest of the laundry.

    Fact is our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. All of us are made in the image of God, free will and intellect, and within our souls, n spite of our sinfulness…the Lord speaks to us in our conscience…always guiding us to His will.

    That is to whom Vatican II is addressing..those peoples in their environment who listen to their inner conscience…where the commandments of God are inscribed…they learn to listen and to follow but have not come to Christianity at this time…and treat all people with brotherly love.

    God condemn them? No, I think not…as they are already demonstrating something of Christ Himself leading them.

  • Julie

    Thanks…I saw a reference to a line from a Jewish kabbala…1600’s that was inserted into the Vatican II Mass..and is freaking people out.. I don’t recall it…but will talk some day to some local priests about this…

  • Julie

    Check out Hebrew Catholics…www.hebrewcatholic.net…and they speak against the things you mention…no replacement theology…they have a long series on Israel and the Church by Dr Friedman. Dr Roy Shoeman, http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com is also a member…i am an associate.

  • Grandmere

    Join the club! A LOT of people misjudge Walid.

  • Julie

    Just saw references to purgatory…your stance against Catholicism is showing…..do you know there are some issues the Latin Church as well towards our Orthodox brethren?….

  • Julie

    Check out Julie’s response …the great rabbi Hillel taught purgatory. You cannot just caught off one lung that is apostolic, deny its purpose and function and then accept only the other half.

    The two are meant to be one. Compliment and correct each other…just like Paul corrected Peter for turning back for the inspiration he got from the Lord…noting Paul himself had no such inspiration…

  • The really slim shady

    If i want an unbiased look at the issue, no. A Catholic perspective is not where im going to look.
    As i often say, thats like going to the 911 Commissions report to find out what happened on 911.

    I could see your argument if in fact Catholics invented Christianity, and were actually the keepers of it (as i completely understand you believe), however – thats not the case.

    Its also like trying to use a Protestant page to prove “sola scriptura”.
    Yeah, i could do it. But will people consider the argument valid? No.
    And why not? Because a Protestant already believes that, is biased, and is obligated to prove their preconceived ideas.

    Logic doesnt work that way.

    • Stephen Dalton

      Cop out #2!

      • The really slim shady

        The best way to fight an argument is to pretend theres no argument at all hey?

  • OrthodoxKGC2015

    Scripture Itself never says that ‘the truth is uncomplicated’. You are a liar and a deceiver, unless you provide evidence from Scripture that ‘the truth is uncomplicated’.

  • The really slim shady

    If i want to know why NOT to buy a Ford, im not going to call the Ford dealer.
    Id rather trust someone whos got nothing to gain.

    • Stephen Dalton

      Cop out!

  • Julie

    Oh yes we do…by Word and sacraments…we are nourished and the Lord says those who endure to the end will be saved…and we are sinners..all of us…only when we are with the Lord in heaven can we claim salvation.

  • Julie

    Yes…it is …and when people misconstrue what Catholics believe etc…we take it to share the truth with them…even the changing of a preposition can affect meaning at its most profound level.

    So please hang in there…God bless you!

  • OrthodoxKGC2015

    Nullifier of the New Covenant.

  • Julie

    Well we are raised not to be self righteous. And we need all the charisms of our separated brethren in our church…come back home.

    But we place our righteousness in the Lord…not ourselves…so confession is helpful…and keeping our eyes on Him.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    The question you should ask, is why did they do something on behalf of the dead? Purgatory is just the name given, just as Trinity was the name given to represent our belief in the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and Paul also spoke of ‘purgatory’.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus was speaking to all who have ears to hear – He said that if we don’t forgive from our heart, that the Father will throw us in prison until we pay back the debt.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Why did Paul pommel his body everday? Why did he tell us to work out our salvation with FEAR and trembling? Paul wasn’t too self-assured that he had eternal salvation — till the very end.

  • You typed all this crap and wasted your time for nothing. Here is how this argument is destroyed, in two seconds: find any reputable historian who would agree that Nimrod and Samiramis even lived in the same era and I will yield. You can’t and you won’t, 100% guarantee. This will show that you believe in myth and not God.

    • One trained historian here. Walid was right. End of story.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        How many weirdoes are there?

        • Here, it’s endless.

        • Dave Knapp

          More than you can count ;^>

          • Julie LaBrecque

            You are in that number.

        • Grandmere

          They are legion.

  • Amen, I do, indeed, my friend!

  • Jennifer

    Walid,
    I am messianic jew. Hebrew roots isn’t the only heretical movement. There is a movement called the name movement that ascribes to the same heretical doctrines about the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, and other foundational aspects of our faith. Maybe they are one in the same. When you say that to be messianic is to be catholic, what does that mean? I was a little confused by the title.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Here is your answer.

    • Jennifer. You’r correct on both points. As far as the question, being Messianic is simply being Christian who believes in the Messiah/Jesus and is not associated with Gentiles speaking and worshiping in Hebrew. To link to the first century style worship, this is already in the Orthodox, Coptic, Catholic etc … Have you fully read the article?

      • Jennifer

        I just fully read the article. I have some visual tracking disabilities. When there are really long articles and the spacing between lines is small, it takes me extra long to read through an article. The article was really good. One of my closest friend considers herself a Calvinist and “reformed” Christian and very much promotes sola scriptura. What you are saying here sounds Biblically grounded to me. I have always been taught that the apocrypha was not Scriptural canon_ I am interested to hear more about your perspective and understanding. Will you sometime in the future write a posting more focused on the Scriptural canon? I think you absolutely correct about gentile Christians not needing to speak Hebrew. I can’t tell you how many stories or websites I have come across promoting heretical anti-trinitarian, judaizing doctrines. When fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have found out about my being a messianic Jew, I have to remind them of Acts 15and warn them to enjoy the Jewish roots of knowing Christ but not to fall pray to the pseudo-messianic cults. One of my favorite passages in Scripture is Ephesians 2- which tells how Jesus is bring Jew and Gentile together as one in Him. I loved this article. When I was younger, I had relatives who wanted to send counter-missionaries to deconvert me. Anytime, I come across articles of this nature, it is a treasure to me.

  • Your idol was destroyed and you’r upset? Or is it a case that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned?

  • Have you had a chance to read the Philokalia yet? This may also make for lovely reading if you haven’t, though we’re still missing Book 5 in English.

    • Woody

      Yes, Rudy; can you tell me more of the Christian Church in Russia; I met a Russian last week in Myrtle Beach thinking about your remarks about the Church in Russia. I think the average US person thinks it being Atheistic would persecute any Christians…you know they allow Services, e.g, the Mass, what restrictions do they have if any??? etc. Thanks

      • The average person is being bombarded with terrible news from Russia, most of it trash. They don’t get Russia, and especially not the Church, which has become far more integrated into society. That brings about its own problems as well, and the bishops must be vigilant about this, but still, I’d rather see church involvement than the chaos we have here in the US.

        There are Roman Catholic masses in Russia for those Catholic adherents, usually Germans, Poles, Filipinos and others. But for the majority, people go to the Liturgy, and it’s common everywhere.

        • Woody

          Thanks Rudy knew you would know.

  • Julie

    The confessional booths started with the Irish..before penitents got up before the congregation to confess grave sins.

    Yours …what kind of religion do you belong to that makes you want to prove anything with these totally unrelated sources?

    Why don’t you go to Church sources to see how they first worshipped and practiced their faith and how Christianity developed instead of being so drawn into paganism.

    You are more knowledgeable of paganism than you are of Christianity.

  • Julie

    Thank you…Latins more economical and pressed for time…on the go and the Orthodox take time to enter into the mysteries…

  • Julie

    You are the one with such beliefs.

  • Julie

    1. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them as we do others and the intercession of saints.

    2. Priests do not forgive sin. Only Christ in absolution.

    3. Catholics adore God alone..no pope.

  • Stephen Dalton

    Warning, warning! Hislop alert, Hislop alert!

  • Stephen Dalton

    Huh?!

  • Two more seconds to nail this one with another question, Jesus style:

    So which did Jesus fulfill:

    a) Luther’s Canon?
    b) Catholic’s Canon?
    C) Your Canon?

    In other words, name me the books that Jesus approved as “Scripture” and WHY?

  • Julie

    I did get it wrong…National Catholic Reporter is off center. I meant to say, wwwncregister.com…National Catholic Register …presents what the pope has said.

    • Julie

      It is National Catholic Register to get the actual words of P Francis. Don’t go to National Catholic Reporter…they are into change…

  • Julie

    Voice of sanity. I think it wise not to listen to lies as they do…the sting of locusts…that poison men’s souls…as these unfortunates are.

  • Rev. Jones a paleontologist? Over 34 years ago after “resigning from his scientific vocation,” (Jones biography online at http://www.floydjones.org ) Jones devoted the rest of his life to the young earth creationism he still promotes. His 1993 dissertation was titled, “Chronology of the Old Testament: A Return to the Basics.” He should have subtitled it, “A return to the 1600s.” He has also written that the King James Bible is the only translation that is the Word of God, the others are all corrupted by Satan himself. Oh dear!

    For over 34 years, Jones has not published a single article on paleontology. In fact, a search of available data bases and journals fails to return a single example of Jones ever publishing anything related to paleontology. Jones probably had taken some college courses on paleo, but to claim to actually be a paleontologist demands an active participation and contribution to paleontological study. There is no evidence that Jones has ever done this. The oil industry certainly does hire people in paleontology, particularly micropaleontology. This is the study of things like pollen, and tiny microscopic critters. There is no justification for Jones to call himself a paleontologist, and an ordinary sort of journalist knows these days how to use Google.

  • “His Canon Jesus said “Search the SCRIPTURE, for in them you think you have eternal life, and it is THEY which testify of Me””

    This verse Jesus says to look at the Scriptures to see He is fulfillment. Again had you examined the Book of Wisdom in my article you would find that this DID testify of Christ. However, we are speaking about the Canon and all you say is “Search The Scripture?”

    Okay:

    1–in John 10: 22-36 Jesus and the Apostles observed the key Feast of the Dedication (Hanukkah), which celebrates events only recorded in 1 and 2 Maccabees. By treating the Feast of Hanukkah and the account of it in the books of the Maccabees as an image or type of His own consecration by the Father. That is, He treats the Feast of Hanukkah from what we called “apocryphal” books of 1 and 2 Maccabees exactly as He treats accounts of the manna (John 6:32-33; Exodus 16:4), the Bronze Serpent (John 3:14; Numbers 21:4-9), and Jacob’s Ladder (John 1:51; Genesis 28:12)— as inspired, prophetic, scriptural images of Himself.

    2—Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children (Matt. 2:16) was prophesied in Wis. 11:7.

    3—The ‘desolating sacrilege’ (Mt 24:15) Jesus refers to is taken from 1 Mac 1:54 and 2 Mac 8: 17.

    4—Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women (Luke 1:42) follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

    Again, apparently you are being a bit lazy and did not read the article carefully. Why else would you write stuff like:

    “the Old Testament, accepted by the Jews, and accepted by Jesus, who came to fulfill the Law.”

    The Septuagint WAS what was exactly used as the Old Testament, which WAS accepted by the Jews, and also WAS accepted by Jesus (including His apostles, read the article), who came to fulfill the Law.

    GET IT? Its easy.

  • AnthonyM

    Great article, Walid. It shows a lot of work went into it!
    Like the turn of phrase ‘With Luther, Wisdom departed.’.

  • Fear God. The issue FIRST is what we projected, who has the full set of Scripture? Once this is determined by you, then all the other questions will fall in place. It is sort of like when Muslims say “I will never worship a man who is claimed to be God”. First this Muslim must trust Scripture to see that Jesus was God. Same with your issue. Who took these seven books out? It was in the nineteenth century. In these Seven book there is much. But first do you trust them as being from God?

  • Fair enough Drofmar. I agree. I also agree that at times such dialogue is necessary. Even though it gets heated at times.

  • It would be better to send it to [email protected]. I am not allowed to email for security reasons but can receive email. Would love to read your thought.

  • Dave Knapp

    Gasp

  • As I find, I’ll post.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Wish all prots were as eager to learn as these two.

  • marlene

    Admitting that I will have to read this remarkable article again, I make this comment anyway. I was born both jewish and christian. My son was born jewish, Christian and greek. Between us, we covered all bases. I call myself a jewish Christian. My son calls himself a greek Christian. When I came to yahweh, He strengthened my jewish heritage, rather than rejecting it as many jews believe. At first, I was so happy to lose that nagging sense of persecution that I suffered as a jews. But soon it all came back as a real sense of being persecuted for being a Christian. Go figure. By the way, I really enjoyed reading about Dr. Shoebat’s family, as I’ve always been curious and watch him on TV whenever he’s a guest. Thank you.

  • dovari

    Thanks for the link. I just ordered my copy of Orthodox Study Bible from flipkart.com

  • Trevor

    I know what you mean as well. For me, it was more about thinking critically instead of swallowing everything I have been taught.

  • Trevor

    I know. Unfortunate.

  • Steve Smith

    i will not bit your head off.

  • Marcos Filipe Guerra

    I use the http://www.blueletterbible.com

    However I can’t seem able to change from the masoretic text to the septuagint. It’s funny you said that it’s the church that interprets the Bible, for when I see the Bible account on the creation some say that “evening and morning were the first day.” while other translations say “evening and morning were one day.” This is where some people fit that gap theory about evolution. KJV got that one right.
    Looking at Isaiah 10:34 it says in KJV “And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.” That one, they got it wrong. Guess wich version got it right? NIV “He will cut down the forest thickets with an ax; Lebanon will fall before the Mighty One.”

    I was shocked, LOL. The NIV account on Job 40:15,17: “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox….Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.” Various english translation keep this record, because it can’t be a hippopotamus. Hippo’s tail isn’t like a cedar, no land animal on earth right now fits the bill. The brachiosaurus or the diplodocus, however, fit the bill. If this makes you unconfortable with evolutionists, tough luck, do your home work. I had a hard time on this one, because in my translation in portuguese says “hipopótamo”. Never occured to me to look at its tail. Why? Because I thought that it was written what it said in the hebrew or greek. Just when I looked at some other translations is when I began to think that maybe someone was inserting their interpretation over what was written. Never occured to me to question:”Hm, maybe they didn’t know what it meant, or what animal it was, so they inserted what they felt confortable with.” Indeed careful is needed when examining the Bible.

  • Grandmere

    Did you say you are in complete agreement with Walid? Does not compute.

  • mspip

    rob you are rude!!

  • Woody

    Greatly researched article as usual; bottom line protestants follow Luther, not Jesus and why He said, …they have me on their lips but not in their heart…”

  • Julie

    I see. But I never thought the Orthodox believed in once saved always saved….I don’t know enough about it…except bullet points given to us in our Sunday Visitor.

    But do you hear of the need to do penance…Luke 3:13, Do penance for the remission of sins lest ye likewise perish.

    This no purgatory concept has profound differences then between the two because then it is sounding more like protestant position in eastern Orthodox…

  • Woody

    Hmmm, does that mean Peter?

  • Tom_mcewen

    “HOW can you possibly disagree with me!” said Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao,The Devil and all his assorted churches of Death.

  • Julie

    Julie the other one here….would be good source on background. I just cannot understand Orthodoxy being so different.

    They see Mary as without sin and above all women…so we name this state…we simply name this state…Immaculate conception and they call it heresy.

    Go to Catholic Answers: Eastern Orthodoxy. I found out it was Muslims who really made the schism, forcing it on the patriarch of Constantinople..and then the Russian emperor deciding to make his placea in the world the Rome of Russia…and had his patriach…then there were some others based on ethnicity…broke into their own thing…so cannot see this as universal Catholicism…He Ekklesia Katolika…originally so named 107AD.

    Other problem is Novo Ordo..even P Benedict saw it a mess.

    We need liturgical renewal.

  • Julie

    Julie Harbinger, you are interpreting my faith through something that is distorting us .

    All I can tell you now is to go online and see the full deposit of our beliefs in the universal catechism. Start w Prologue, then go into each doctrine one at a time…read academically…see how points build on another to avoid taking anything out of context.

    The real problem now in the Church are the Germans who want to dictate to Rome gay marriage, etc. Cardinal Marx, his crowd and some Swiss bishops..Swiss bishops same source of errors before Council of Florence ….

    You are reading so much conspiratorial stuff that is based on falsehood…the locusts…in Revelations…you spend more time on this stuff than in the Word of God Who leads you to truth in God and your neighbor.

    You don’t know anything of the Mass, who Mary is and how we relate to her.

  • Julie

    Your interpretation is so out of touch with reality of my faith.

    Thanks to the internet..see the kooky stuff out there and I can sense right away it is not from God.

    Yes…you certainly are outside of religion and are no interpreter of my faith…best go and find the Lord…you are being led by a false spirit who is leading you to false understanding…and hatred of those who don’t think like you.

    Religio is Latin…it means to look up…to bind. My faith is binding to Christ.

    You think the Father is disgusted…I only sense His love for me and His guidance to always become more Christlike…which is what the Catholic Church teaches.

    Adios!

  • Woody

    Another half-wit joins in….

    • Julie LaBrecque

      That’s a bit generous in my opinion.

  • Woody

    Walid disposed of this heretic fast, truth always wins out-ask Jesus

  • colin

    Bit like your name then…

  • Eric

    All right, Grandmere. I will.

  • Dave Knapp

    Not even what that verse says…