You Cannot Have A Personal Relationship With Jesus Unless You Eat His Flesh And Drink His Blood

sacred_heart_of_jesus

There has always been some form of devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, beginning with the apostles. In the early Church, this manifested itself in the form of devotion to the love of God, because as scripture states, “God Is Love” (1 John 4:8) and as such is God’s nature. Since the heart is considered the central point of one’s being, and since the heart of God is love, as this is His nature, then the worship and honor of the heart of God is nothing less that the worship of God Himself in possibly the purest form known to man.

In sacred scripture, this worship of the Sacred Heart begins with St. Longinus. For those who are unfamiliar, St. Longinus was the Roman soldier who pierced Jesus’ side with the lance after His death, upon which blood and water flowed out:

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Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” –John 19:31-37

The first devotions to the love of God were found in the Early Church among devotion to the Holy Wounds of Christ, for if by his stripes we were healed, then that which those who tortured Christ and sought after His death desired to use as their means to dishonor and denigrate Him have become an object of veneration. It is the same reason why the cross is  venerated, for if cursed is a man who hangs on a tree, and Christ became a curse and bore the curse that followed all men due to original sin, then the very object used to establish that curse has become a blessing for all. Following this line of thinking, this piercing of Christ’s side was understood by the early Church and is articulated through the Church Fathers as being the entrance for the Faithful into Christ’s mystical body and access to His Heart, which is the Heart of God:

A watchful word the Evangelist has used, when he says not “Pierced His side,” or “Wounded,” or anything else, but “Opened”: that there a gate of life might be opened, whence the sacraments of the Church have flowed forth, without which there is no entrance to the life that is truly life. (St. Augustine, Commentary on John)

The Ark is without doubt a figure of the city of God wandering in this world, that is to say, the Church which is saved by means of the wood, on which hung the mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. . . And the door it received in its side is surely the wound made in the side of the Crucified when pierced by the lance, by which those enter who come to Him; for from it flowed the sacraments in which believers are initiated. (St. Augustine, City of God)

One of the soldiers, snatching a spear, opened His side. Thus he did not break, nor pierce, nor throttle to death, but (he says) opened; that we might recognize in the gate of life made by this powerful thrust, not the mark of a wound, but the entrance to salvation. For that Ark also, in whose safe protection Noe alone, when all others were perishing, rode the swelling floods of the world and the unchecked triumph of death, is described as being fitted with a door in its side, by which entrance is made to salvation and exit to the light of day. . . Let us consider, therefore, first what proceeded thence, and next how the Christian enters in. (St. Avitus of Vienne, Sermon on the Passion)

The door in the midst of the side was in the right part of the house; for when the Lord died on the cross, one of the soldiers pierced His side with a lance. And appropriately in the right part of the house; since it was His right side that the soldier opened, according to the belief of Holy Church. Here also the Evangelist makes use of an apt word, when he says not “Struck,” or “Wounded,” but “Opened,” that is, the door in the midst of His side, through which the way to heaven might be opened to us. (St. Bede, On Solomon’s Temple)

Just as Christ’s earthly body was encased in flesh and as such His insides were inaccessible, so was the innermost sanctuary of God, the great sacred temple closed to the common man, just as in the same way Heaven itself was closed to all men before the crucifixion. As such it was that after the crucifixion that Heaven was opened and both the veil in the temple was ripped as was Christ’s side opened, so those who received Him and believed in His name might pass through this new entrance, this new partition of a once impassable sea as alluded to in the passage of God’s people from Egypt to the Promised Land of Israel through the parting of the Red Sea with Moses in the Old Testament, into a new life. But this is not merely an earthly life of abundance and peace, but a heavenly life in which man may realize his ultimate purpose and end, which as the Baltimore Catechism so eloquently states is:

God made me to know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next.

Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is particularly special because it involves devotion to both the physical and spiritual parts of His heart.

During the Catholic Mass at the consecration, the priest speaks these words:

Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body, which will be given up for you.

Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me.

These are the words of the prayer in which the bread and wine become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ during the Holy Mass. They still retain their physical character as bread and wine, but it is through this prayer that these substances are changed in substance into the flesh and blood of God who became man so that, following directly after this prayer you may hear (as there are several different prayers that can be used):

By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity

God became man so that man might become like God. It is also a direct refutation of the many different heresies of the past which denied the dual nature of Christ- his human and divine natures- that are so prevalent today albeit masked under different names. But make no mistake, Christ is not a mere superman among men (as the Arians taught), a superman who became God (the Nestorians), nor is he a pure spirit whose humanity is effaced by His divinity (as the Monophysites said), but is both God and man; God who stepped into time so that we might step into eternity.

Through the reception of the Eucharist we physically take Christ into our bodies, fulfilling the divine command in John 6, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you, for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in Him.

eucharist

This also assumes a spiritual reception of Christ as well into our souls, for indeed, even people who are unable to receive the physical Eucharist are asked at the very least to make an act of spiritual communion. That flesh of Christ which we receive, both physically and spiritually, is indeed the love of God made physically and spiritually manifest among men, which is the heart of Christ- His sacred heart.

Proof of this is not only found in the theological writings of the Fathers, but can be seen in the many instances around the world where the Eucharist becomes- in literal fashion- the physically manifest flesh and blood of Christ as a testimony to those around that indeed, not only is the Eucharist the true flesh of Christ, but that the particular kind of flesh is of the heart muscle and the blood type is the same kind found on the shroud of Turin.

 

The heart of Christ is the heart of God, which is love and mercy itself

This heart of Christ is made manifest in His flesh, which is consumed in the Eucharist

To partake in the Eucharist is to receive physical and spiritually the very heart of God into yourself.To enter into Heaven, one must partake in the flesh of Christ, which is that of His heart.

To access the heart of Christ, on must pass through His wounds which opened the way to His heart that occurred on the way to the Cross.

To enter into the wounds of Christ is to enter into His passion and death

To enter into the passion and death of Christ is to die to walk the via dolorosa, the way of sorrows, with Christ, and so to find the narrow path which leads to eternal life.

 

Sacred scripture gives a warning:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

There are many people who claim they are “doing the Lord’s work.” But are they really?

Earlier, I referenced John 6, where Jesus calls His flesh true food and His blood true drink. After He makes these statements, the scripture continues with these words: 

 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?  Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life.  We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

He who would desire to follow Christ, to pursue the divine Love must enter by the road which God has established for entrance, as there is no other way. This is the way to have a true, “personal relationship” with Christ as He has established.

Surely there are many people who can have supernatural experiences, feelings, or even have miracles happen, and these are all well and good. However, there is a difference between feeling and facts, and what a man feels does not mean that it is a fact.

The way to the Sacred Heart of God as Christ has instructed us to worship and consume is quite simple- it is just down the road at your local Catholic Church.

The only question that remains is ”Do you also wish to go away?”

Think before you answer.

Pange Linuga, by St. Thomas Aquinas:

PANGE, lingua, gloriosi

Corporis mysterium,

Sanguinisque pretiosi,

quem in mundi pretium

fructus ventris generosi

Rex effudit Gentium.

 

SING, my tongue, the Savior’s glory,

of His flesh the mystery sing;

of the Blood, all price exceeding,

shed by our immortal King,

destined, for the world’s redemption,

from a noble womb to spring.

 

Nobis datus, nobis natus

ex intacta Virgine,

et in mundo conversatus,

sparso verbi semine,

sui moras incolatus

miro clausit ordine.

 

Of a pure and spotless Virgin

born for us on earth below,

He, as Man, with man conversing,

stayed, the seeds of truth to sow;

then He closed in solemn order

wondrously His life of woe.

 

In supremae nocte cenae

recumbens cum fratribus

observata lege plene

cibis in legalibus,

cibum turbae duodenae

se dat suis manibus.     

 

On the night of that Last Supper,

seated with His chosen band,

He the Pascal victim eating,

first fulfills the Law’s command;

then as Food to His Apostles

gives Himself with His own hand.

 

Verbum caro, panem verum

verbo carnem efficit:

fitque sanguis Christi merum,

et si sensus deficit,

ad firmandum cor sincerum

sola fides sufficit.

 

Word-made-Flesh, the bread of nature

by His word to Flesh He turns;

wine into His Blood He changes;-

what though sense no change discerns?

Only be the heart in earnest,

faith her lesson quickly learns.

 

Tantum ergo Sacramentum

veneremur cernui:

et antiquum documentum

novo cedat ritui:

praestet fides supplementum

sensuum defectui.

 

Down in adoration falling,

Lo! the sacred Host we hail;

Lo! o’er ancient forms departing,

newer rites of grace prevail;

faith for all defects supplying,

where the feeble sense fail.

 

Genitori, Genitoque

laus et iubilatio,

salus, honor, virtus quoque

sit et benedictio:

procedenti ab utroque

compar sit laudatio.

Amen. Alleluia.

 

To the everlasting Father,

and the Son who reigns on high,

with the Holy Ghost proceeding

forth from Each eternally,

be salvation, honor, blessing,

might and endless majesty.

Amen. Alleluia.

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  • Tom_mcewen

    I just spent days talking to a protestant about the church and we ended up on heil Mary, there is real fear of Mary, she who had a true personal relationship. Protestants are to me are the civil servants of the Christian world. Civil servants should be brave, they cannot be fired, and protestants cannot lose their salvation, but both become afraid of sticking there neck out. Mary is a defining point, in who is Jesus and who is our neighbor. The bible is not a minefield for Catholics we think of it as typology, the same story in the OT and the NT, in the 500 years since we have been separated, the Jesus in protestantism is a jealous Greek God who will punish you for tipping your hat to Mary, she becomes a witch, a demon a threat if you get it wrong with Jesus. For us she is our neighbor, a creature like we are preserved by special means for a special task, but human. Protestants living in a universe of material, death is a fact in a material universe and the dead are dead and stay dead. We Catholics I hope understand that we live in a universe of space, time and material and in this universe death is a fact. But God is the creator of space, time and material and is its master not its slave, God IS, he is the God of the living, Mary is not dead, she is a saint in Heaven who prays before the throne of God for us her neighbors. Those in prison that Jesus gave the gospel too. Was in the time between one heart beat was hearing the voice of Jesus. We don’t fear Jesus, we don’t fear Mary they do. Bad theology.

    • nol gren

      Lets keep on interceding for them Tom. I know you will. Their ignorance is no excuse but they need to come to a place of maturity too, denying themselves and allow the whole truth to penetrate their hearts and souls. For behold, henceforth all generations will CALL ME blessed, says Mary the mother of Jesus AND our mother too. I love her and I am so thankful for her. She is alive and glorified. Just like all the other precious saints. I fell in love with the corporate truth Walid showed us a few weeks ago. The Body of God,…our connection with heaven, with the saints(dear mother Mary), the angels, the blood in heaven…Its amazing to KNOW that we are not alone and that we live in oneness with the members of the Body of God in heaven. I’m smiling a lot since then.

      • Neither do I see anything wrong with what nol says.

    • Flame blue

      That’s wrong Tom.

      Protestants respect Mary, but are nervous of worshipping her, known as Maryism.

      As to who Jesus is, l don’t know who you think he is but for Church going non Romans, Jesus is their divine Lord who came into flesh as the Word of God made flesh, the incarnate Lord, the Messiah and sacrificial perfect Lamb offering for their sin redemption. They love Jesus with all their heart, and through him they know God, his character. They believe that they have been gifted the Holy Spirit who keeps them on a righteous path, and has sealed this Commandments into their hearts, and that Jesus dwells with them, and lives in them and they live in him as temples of the Lord. They believe that Jesus did that when they first accepted his offer of salvation, and repentance, and believed in him. They also believe that when they came to faith, they will be on the vine and be branches that give good fruit, as good deeds, and actions, after they come to Jesus through Faith. They believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

      The Protestants, and l am not including JW and Mormons, have the same core scriptures as Roman Catholics. They take their view of Jesus from the Gospels, not the Quran, so they believe in the Biblical Jesus, not a different Jesus, not an Isa of the Quran who is not Jesus, in name or deed or personality.

      I am sad when l read such shocking statements, we don’t have a Greek God Jesus. You are giving the enemies of Christianty ammunition to use against Christians and Christianity. In doing that, l believe you to be on side with the mockers of Christians, and part of the darkness. May Jesus search your heart for wickedness and root it out of you.

      • Tom_mcewen

        Yes you do.

        • Catbr

          It’s like beating a dead horse, or talking to a brick wall. No matter how many times you explain anything about catholicism to protestants they give and stick to the same repetitive replies and call Catholicism evil and witchcraft etc. Quite brazen and arrogant, just like Islamic muslims. I see no love, which they always boast of, or mutual respect at all, rather only bigoted insults and hatred from these types. They are brainwashed well.

          • Flame blue

            I have not called Roman Catholicism evil and witchcraft. If l thought that for 1 minute, l would not come to this forum. I assure you, l don’t go to Satanic websites!

          • exwolf

            I’m with you on this one, Flame.

            I’ve just read your posts and it seems clear to me you have merely defended the ‘protestant’ position, which worryingly seems to be under constant and sometime irrational attack.

          • You are such a blessed peacemaker exwolf.

          • Catbr

            Lol.

          • What can you tell these flock of sheep Catbr? I ran out of instruction.

          • Catbr

            Absolutely nothing right now. Let them do what they want. I’m just tired of the name calling that they all deny. You handle them better than I ever could, blunt and to the point and then some. You’re the boss around here, they listen to you. Well, some do anyway. Lol.

          • I tend to cut down on trying to handle comments these days. So many are just a broken record and so few even show you a quote of what you said that they object to. They simply give opinion of what you are and what you stated and then they slander and slander and slander. Its the sign of the times Catbr.

          • Catbr

            You’re right Walid. I don’t blame you for not trying to handle all these comments so much anymore. It does drive one up the wall. Maybe that’s why they do it, to get people angry, like a school yard bully.

          • Flame blue

            Thanks. The vast majority of Protestants don’t protest against Roman Catholics. If my posts are read carefully, it can be seen that l am responding to statements that were started by Romans saying Protestants are heretics and apostates and outside of Christianity ( because Jesus just sanctioned Rome to be the one Christian Church. Also, statements that we are in league with Muslims, and that it can be proven because we reject Mary icons and so do Muslims. Then there is the endless accusations of being Lutheran, and focusing on the what the sins of Luther are and how we carry Luther’s sin on our Protestant backs. This led to Protestants being accused of having a different Jesus to Roman Catholics, one poster saying we have a Greek Jesus, or an Islamic view of Jesus, not a Jewish one. Yet, how we have, l don’t know, because we allegedly stole the Gospels from Rome.

            It’s a gang up, here. Of course, l can well win in a war of words, and in polite manner, if allowed, yet dare l attempt to educate them and one is accused of slander, yet God sees who is really the slandered and hated, and its not me, as God is my Judge. l wish they would move into the 21st century. There are some who just want to fight and lead the others astray. God is watching that l am certain of!

            My belief is that we get our chance here on this Earth to be fair, and kind and loving, because it’s in this World it’s needed most. God has shown me that, and we should make the most of our opportunity. When people can give love why would they not? We can never regret giving love, but we can regret, rue, drive ourselves mad thinking of the hatred we gave, so those who hate make themselves suffer in the end, as much as they made their victims suffer.

          • The New Testament IS the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Noah’s ark, for example, who lived through that terrible deluge? Only the people who were on that ark!

            The ark is the precursor to that holy Ship that God Himself started: The Roman Catholic Church! It is THE ONLY PLACE that has The Body Of Christ. “Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you have no Life in you.”

            “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man goes to the Father except through Me.” The Father Willed Jesus to suffer and die for us. You disobey Jesus, and you expect to get into Heaven??! You are kidding yourself!

            And that is the reason we Catholics tell you that you are in schism! “My people perish for lack of knowledge,” Jesus said. We love you and care so much for your soul, that is why we tell you the Truth, Christ commands it!!

          • Flame blue

            Gosh, you actually quote scripture that is in my Gospels, woe isn’t that amazing! What a weird coincidence that we should know the same scriptures and follow their directives. Amazing ! One Ark, the universal Church of the people of the way, in these times known as Christians.

          • racarrera

            The Apostolic Church, not merely Rome.

          • Catbr

            I didn’t say you specifically called catholics evil and practice witchcraft but said protestants in general. But this is what you did say “search your heart for wickedness & root it out of you, I believe you to be on side with the mockers of Christians & part of the darkness, ( these statements may have been directed at Tom but seems to be against catholics in general), protestants respect Mary, but are nervous of worshipping her, Maryism. (this has more than likely been explained to you over a dozen times that catholics don’t worship Mary.) So, what does this sound like to you? Praise and love for your brethren in Jesus, the RC church? I hardly think so.

          • Flame blue

            But that is the reason l am defending Protestants, it’s because l know that they don’t in general say that Roman Catholics are evil and do witchcraft. We are not accusers, Christians must not be accusers, for Satan is the chief accuser, and we are aware of that fact.

            Do you not think that it is likely Athiests or Satanists who are playing games with you Roman Catholics, pretending that they are Protestants and saying these vile things? Certainly, l do think that they are not right with God to be accusing and lieing. Never mind them! I would take any fellow non Roman to task who says such things.

            Recently, in the company of my church people, l mentioned that paedophiles in the Church would be going to Hell (but we go through rigorous training and we are vetted when we work with children, and we try not to be on our own with a child, not our own.) However, in the light of me mentioning Hell, a woman became quite annoyed and told me that she would not tolerate the mention of Hell, and it was a thing she did not believe in and Christians like me gave Christians a bad name and God wouldn’t do that, He would just forgive, so of course, l told her about Jesus ‘millstone bottom of the sea’ scripture. She went further, and complained against me to the elite of the Church. Well, he was miffed a bit at me but he defended me, telling her that she had sat week after week listening to his services yet she had learned nothing. Just letting you know, that l take them to task, so if l hear slander against Roman Catholics, l will not be shy in dealing with it.

          • Well one Fundamentalist Baptist I met told me we are worshiping the Sun God of the Romans which made me start reading history and the Bible and Catholic Doctrines, found out it was a false accusation/slander on our Church. Instead of staying away from RC, i became an apologist of the Catholic Faith. Walid helped me a lot with his articles.

          • Flame blue

            So, you were not a Christian when you met this Baptist but you then felt prompted and started to explore the Bible and Catholic Doctrines, and you became a Roman Catholic Christian. That was an amazing way you became a Christian. The Lord sure used that Baptist fellow and its true that God works in mysterious ways! Praise the Lord!

          • Grandmere

            Read it again. You MISINTERPRETED his remarks.

          • Hi Flame blue, I was a Catholic Christian by birth, only as I grew up I was one of that lukewarm in Laodicea mentioned in Revelation 3:14. Yes indeed, the slander made me go back to God and have come to defend the Catholic faith.

          • Flame blue

            My eldest son had attended church for some years and liked it, but stopped going when he was about 14 or so, that was sad, and he went through a period where he couldn’t stand up to his mockers. However, when he was 18, l managed to persuade him to come to a Christmas service. As we left church some Athiests outside decided to cause trouble on Christians Eve. That l had never seen before or after, and years have passed now. One atheist run forward towards my son, and punched him.

            My son spent Christmas with a black eye and swollen nose, and we were distressed. The boy asked me why, and l could only say that lots of people hate Jesus. My son pondered the matter, and l think came to the conclusion that the mockery of his friends, was not directed at him for being stupid for believing in Jesus but at Jesus himself. This brought my son to a new understanding, and he committed himself to a Christian lifestyle again.

            So, l can relate to what you said.

          • Where slander abounds, is where you find the truth. Well done.

          • Good job Walid. May God bless you and bring more light and truth in every article you share. I like the sun/moon explanation you recently explained. It makes sense.

          • The really slim shady

            There is a bunch of solar references in Catholicism, not entirely untrue – not that every Catholic worships the sun. My bet is the more well informed ones do – just like the Freemasons.

          • Catbr

            More with the slander and name calling. You just don’t know when to quit. I think you’ve seen you’re fair share of black eyes and broken noses. Some people don’t know when to quit talking and just listen.

          • The really slim shady

            Please show me what name I called anybody.
            I also didnt slander anybody, merely stated that theres solar references all over Catholicism – what do you think those halos are?

            Also made it clear i dont consider all Catholics as sun worshippers, yet you still took it personally.

            Never had someone punch me for telling the truth, but ill bet if i ever do it will be a Catholic!

          • Grandmere

            You called Catholics sun worshipers. You didn’t use those words but that is exactly what you did. You thought you left yourself some room to wiggle out of it but we know better. Get to pushing that broom.

          • The really slim shady

            I didnt leave wiggle room, i specified who i was talking about – more well informed Catholics.

            Just like the freemasons, im sure most of them dont even know who Jabulon is or that they serve satan – yet when they get to those upper degrees….
            Theres the inner circle and then the rest of the people in every organization.

            And just like in freemasonry, Catholic icons mean different things the more you know.

            I have no doubt that everyone here, and the majority of Catholics overall are sincere in their love of Christ.
            But id recommend people steer clear of their leaders and tradition.

          • Catbr

            All my life I have believed that a person’s religion is their own business. As I got older I read in the bible that Jesus said, anyone who believes in him is on his side and to leave them alone. So I think I had it right all along. So I’ll leave anyone alone as long as they’re not slandering or degrading what I know to be true. I have to believe and stand up for what I know is right. With all the communism in the world today it’s hard to believe who’s telling the truth anymore as communists are always out to destroy the church. Many Russians can testify to this fact. I have just started reading about how Hitler was out to destroy the church by first of all making priests look like criminals. This is going very strong right now in our main stream media. I am going to finish reading about it later.

          • Flame blue

            I think that a person’s religion should point to proof of God’s existence and influence in their life. Using our religion to invite others to be interested in Jesus is good, but l am thinking now, in light of the evil that certain people are doing by dictating about what religion must be worshipped, Muslims for example, who in following quranic scriptures, think it their right to mock Christianity and threaten that we will be forced to accept Islam, we cannot afford to be private about our religion, we must promote its values and defend our way of Christian life.

            It’s true, Jesus said that men healing in his name were for him and not against him so they should not be chased away with rebukes ringing in their ears. That’s a very good point you have made. It’s not complicated, Jesus simply says that if they are for him, they are not against him, and he didn’t say that they must perform certain liturgies, pray in certain ways, or appoint apostles who he breathed on, just simply be for him. Excellent point. Jesus even said to the two villains, sinners, on the crosses next to him, that he would take them into his Kingdom with him, simply because they demonstrated their hope in him in their final agonising hours.

            I have had hope in Jesus since very young, and fortunately, he didn’t stay away from me until l could afford a bible and make my way to a church, because if he had done so, l would have had no comfort for many a year. Jesus didn’t dictate to me that l had to attend a Roman Catholic Church. Jesus is the most compassionate, loving Lord, He makes it easy for us to follow him. Thank you for your insight, given to you by God.

          • You did call us Mary worshippers.

            “Protestants respect Mary, but are nervous of worshipping her, known as Maryism.”

            But thats fine. You can call us anything you like Flame, but when you do, expect someone to throw a pie or two. Thats all.

          • Flame blue

            No, Walid, l said that Protestants are afraid of worshiping a human woman much as she was a wonderful person who God thought highly of, we are afraid to go over the top with our adoration, but we should not be accused of not respecting Mary.

            Now, look at what l have said. I am talking about Protestants and how they feel on the whole, but if you misread that and get sensitive in a hyper way, then you think that l have accused Roman Catholics of worshipping Mary and going over the top. I haven’t done that! I have just tried to explain why Protestants are not so excited about Mary, not so much as you Roman Catholics. You should understand, because you used to be Protestant so you know our thinking on it.

            Roman Catholics don’t call their adoration of Mary by the name Maryism, but that is the name given by Protestants to the few Roman Catholics who do seem from a Protestant mindset to go overboard for Mary. But l did not accuse Roman Catholics of Maryism.

            From my point of view, l think a few Roman Catholics do love Mary as much or more than Jesus, but l think they are in the minority of Roman Catholics but l don’t care if they do because even though God said that He is a jealous God, and we should love Him only, l feel certain that God was referring to idols, and not Mary, or any other revered person who is onside with God and not against Him.

            That’s the truth, Walid, that’s what I think!

          • The really slim shady

            It feels the exact same way on our side 🙂

          • Catbr

            What side is that?

          • The really slim shady

            The “scripture alone” side.

          • Catbr

            And only your interpretation.

        • Grandmere

          Flame came through the door a few weeks ago just like so many we have seen in the past. He presented himself as a protestant who was interested in our conversations and wanted to learn more. Then he began the usual “soft” pushback. Now we are getting the hardline slander by way of the usual insults. He is no different that Edwitness, Slim and Sumsrent. Too bad. He can’t say we didn’t give him a chance. So he will have to be relegated to sweeping the parking lot and rucking out the dumpster. Sorry, Flame, but “no falafel”.

          • Flame blue

            I felt the nail go in Grandmere!

          • From Flame blue to Flame red, just take it easy.

          • And I also see my entrusted Grandmere with a wooden hammer slamming it on a pulpit. Judgment has come, duck down, run to the door, run for your lives, falafel fight is about to erupt.

          • Grandmere

            Pray for me, a sinner.

          • You judgment was fair and correct. No sin committed here.

          • The really slim shady

            I made the list!?!?!?!

          • Grandmere

            The broom is right outside the back door. Get busy! And don’t feel sorry for yourself. I will be busy mopping up vomit off the floor. It is a hot mess in here and it is time for everybody to get the heck out so we can clean.

          • The really slim shady

            I don’t know, I’d say its relatively less messy than it can sometimes get. 🙂

        • AnthonyM

          Depends on the branch of Protestantism, but generally they say Mary is a sinner, just like everyone else. She has no special place in God’s plan of salvation. Gave birth, now set aside. That is how they honor Mary. They don’t fulfill the prophetic verse “all generations shall call me blessed”.

          • Tom_mcewen

            Yes, God is trapped in their 16th view of science, that Tuesday follows Monday in Heaven that the dead stay dead until the clock runs down that God is a prisoner of time as we are. That God has limits, that he cannot create a creature for his own purposes and give her what he gave Eva, that all life and thought and will comes only in this human life not before nor after. That theology requires it’s own answers. The Catholic understanding is rational and what we believe because what we believe is necessary and required for reason. And I stand with that if you cannot love Mary the mother our Lord, then you will not be able to love your neighbor. She the women is in the garden, is the mother of our Lord and in Heaven. She IS, you cannot love Jesus and hate his mother unless you have an insane jealous Greek God as your Jesus, zero sum game.

          • Craig A. Mouldey

            I have seen this reaction 3 times recently when I deliberately looked for opportunity and then said “And Mary is the mother of God”. One who said she was raised a Catholic seemed quite offended. Well the three women were all offended. The one who I considered my long distance friend no longer sends me email. They cannot say anything complimentary about Mary and it may be from fear. But the Lord did and does honour his Father and his mother, and his mother is Mary. He would be pleased if we did also.

          • The really slim shady

            We still consider her quite blessed. Cant think of anyone else who gave birth to the Redeemer of mankind.
            Thats an honor is it not?

      • Julie

        Please get hold a Catholic catechism and see how we worship the Lord. It also contains and describes what is false worship and idolatry.

        There is no way a Catholic can truly worship anyone except Christ….we can make idols out of our reputation, things….but ironically — never Mary because she brings us always closer to Christ.

        • Flame blue

          I was not assuming how you worship Jesus, l was defending how non Roman Catholics worship Jesus. I was stating how we worship Jesus, because somehow Tom thinks we worship a blond Greek Jesus or an Isa from the Quran, and l was stating we have the same core scriptures as Roman Catholics. You know from the Gospels, we stole from the Roman Catholics, who God, apparently gave them to Roman Catholics for their exclusive use.

          There can be no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That applies to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, theology. Nothing can separate me from Jesus!

          • “Nothing can separate me from Jesus!”

            Sin and disobedience can and will separate you from Jesus.

          • Flame blue

            True, but l am not in Jesus bad books, l am in his Book of Life, and aim to stay there!

            You must put truth and fairness as above everything, for your brother is the one who does the will of God, and that will not be twisters and slanderers, condemning and accusing other Christians who they disown, even told they worship Greek idols instead of God.

          • How are you feeling Flame? All okay? Sea is calm?

          • Flame blue

            I am ok Walid, thanks. Yes, that was stormy waters, but it seems that Jesus calmed the seas. Pray so!

          • Good.

            You were speaking of Luther. I guess the way to evaluate Luther is to read his table talks.

          • Flame blue

            How do we know that his table talks were true? I am not that interested in Luther, l take the view that the Lord saved him or rejected him, but he was dealt with by God.

            It’s amazing how this world deludes people to think that it’s long before they face the Lord. But on the whole, l think deep down most people want to please God. They want to be children of God, they do know that the World is temporary and they work in good faith and try to be good. I know there are exceptions such as Muhammad or Joseph Smith etc. Indeed there are false prophets. I can’t understand why they don’t fear the Lord, they must be Satanists or Athiests in disguise as pious, religious people. It’s a mystery, l can’t understand.

          • Tim

            Sin and death is swallowed up in the victory of Christ at Calvary… and disobedience?… we all continue to live lives of “disobedience” in the essence of our fallen nature… It is our belief and trust in Christ that removes that yolk. Roman Catholics throw the disobedience word around without ever defining what it is besides a way to keep fear in ones heart to make sure they maintain the ritual works as per church doctrine. Time to get off the teat and on to the solid food of the Gospel of the bible.

          • Another broken record. Excuse me, can you show me where Tower Records is? Or is that too out of business? Looking for a record that does not cause the needle to stick.

          • Grandmere

            Here ya go, Chef. If you saw the movie you will know what a handyman is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyTx7FKV8og

          • Your hilarious Grandmere. Saw the movie. Loved it. Here is my favorite scene, I think you know which one is the Chef:

            Cursed be the ground … thrones and thistles … to the dust we shall return …

            Just loved it.

          • The really slim shady

            Disobedience didnt separate Jonah from God.
            God just twisted his arm a little bit.

          • It did all the other ones who were not swallowed by a fish.

          • The really slim shady

            Peter denied Jesus multiple times before men, that didn’t separate him from the love of God.

            That’s even worse than disobedience.

          • Julie

            I see now.

            Our worship is so different from Protestants, though.

            We come in before the actual Living Presence of the Lord, and ours is more of repentance and adoration and reception. We have the Psalms to praise Him along with the Gloria and Sanctus. Before, we did not have the psalms in the Mass.

            Catholics do not sing well because our posture is more contemplative and in adoration. But then there are others who like to sing alot.

            You have as many opinions in one parish as people.

      • Muslims respect Mary, but are nervous of worshipping her, known as Maryism.

        Muslims actually say the same thing you said. They accuse falsely. Catholics do not worship Mary.

        And then you write:

        “As to who Jesus is, l don’t know who you think he is but …”

        Now why would you say “I don’t know who you think he is”? You know your brother/sister is Christian? Why say something like this? Why not simply dialogue your differences till kingdom come?

        “l believe you to be on side with the mockers of Christians, and part of the darkness. May Jesus search your heart for wickedness and root it out of you.”

        He is part of “darkness”?

        • Flame blue

          Yes, Muslims worship a black stone at Mecca so as l said what right do they have to say anything against Christians.

          I didn’t accuse Catholics on the whole of Maryism. I didn’t, l said Protestants don’t want God to think that they worship Mary. But I have explained that in another post to you. That doesn’t mean that l have said Catholics do it.

          When l said that ” as to who you think Jesus is” if you care to go over my posts and the posts of the people l responded to, you will see that l used that choice of words because Protestants were accused of worshipping a Greek idol, not Jesus, or a muslim Isa. So, l as a Protestant was being accused of having a different Jesus, so l said” this is who Protestants worship” and gave the attributes of who Protestants think Jesus Christ is, and my remark about ” l don’t know who you worship” is a challenge for that poster to say ” well, that’s not who Catholics worship or He is exactly the same God we Roman Catholics worship”. You are misunderstanding my words and the reason l used those words, Walid. Follow the posts, his and mine, down through the time line from the start?

    • I see nothing wrong with what this man says.

    • The really slim shady

      Name one Protestant thats afraid of Mary?
      They arent afraid of her, they just dont elevate her to a status as high as/higher than Jesus.

      Also interesting you think Protestants live in fear of doing something wrong to make God angry – theyre the ones that live with surety of their salvation.

      • Tom_mcewen

        What exactly did God the Father who is the solvereign judge say to make you believe you are saved. Peter says that scripture is not opened to private interpretation. Taking fives from five different places removing them from their context and putting your personal interpretation and spin, doesn’t bind God in his judgement. You can think all you want, but that doesn’t make it true. Tell me Luther believed what you believed and he raped his maids, is he saved?

        • The really slim shady

          “These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God. ” 1 John 5:13 – DRV
          See, it even says it in your Bible.
          What things did he write, that we may know we have eternal life? The rest of 1 John – that’s the context.

          “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” Romans 8:16
          “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39
          “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:28

          Yes, taking five sentences from different parts of the Bible does in fact prove a matter. It’s amazing how all three of these sources say the same thing – God is not an Indian-giver.
          Salvation is the GIFT of God.

          What man did i cite as a source? You have this misconception I’ve developed my faith from something other than the Word of God.
          If Luther believed what I believe he wouldn’t rape his maids.

        • Flame blue

          If Luther raped his maids, he abused his position as a Christian, and Jesus would have sent him to outer darkness. Luther had many, many enemies, they wrote all sorts of lies about him, they said, he was ugly, uneducated, course and vulgar, a foul sinner, and a heritic, an apostic, a liar, now l hear that he was even a rapist. However, what did his friends say about him, they said that he was refined, polite, well educated, articulate, kind, a solid Christian who loved God with zeal.

          So, where does the truth lie. Only God knows. Luther is dead, and he has been judged. Luther is not the Father of all non Roman Catholics. Protestants have not inherited Luther’s sin, if he has done these things his enemies say he did. Luther is not the God of Protestant Christians, it is Jesus who is! Now, l know that l have not been offensive to you, and l hate dealing with this subject. Luther was not the Protestant Pope. Please stop?

          • Tom_mcewen

            Are you accepting Luther was judged on his words and deeds, that was not what Luther taught nor what protestantism teaches.

          • Flame blue

            I accept that Jesus has judged him, and it’s up to Jesus what he decided. I don’t know the teachings of Luther not being German or in Germany, but l do know that his teachings didn’t go like wild fire throughout Europe.

            Henry the 8th, he broke from the Roman Church because he wanted to marry Anne Boleyn, and the Pope wouldn’t allow it. After breaking from Rome, he informed the staunch Roman Catholics that their loyalty must be to their King, not the Pope, and woe to any who thought otherwise. Later on his Roman Catholic daughter Mary took the throne, and decreed that this new Protestism brought in by her father, was no longer valid. The new Protestants had actually enjoyed their freedom from the Roman Church, so were reluctant to return to it, so Mary went ballistic with them and in so doing gained herself a historical place in history, she was known as “bloody Mary”.

            In Scotland, the tough Scots didn’t like sweet priests and glorious costumes, which they regarded as theatrical in a rough hard land where poverty dominated. The people ate porridge, haggis, and wore old clothes, hence the saying after the grand weddings of sons or daughters in this age
            ” back to old claes and porridge.” So, the Scots opted for basic churches and plain decor, and plain speaking manly priests (manly to their eyes) however, Rome wasn’t having that for they were for pomp and ceremony and a weird language that Scots didn’t understand, Latin, so protests flared and Scotland got its way, and became Protestant.

            Rome imposed her language and culture on other countries, just like Muslims will impose Arabic and Arabia on other cultures and countries that fall to Islam. Rome doesn’t do that now, but they did it, and Islam will certainly do much the same and l see them making headway with their plans. In my country, women wearing burkas take off like kites in the wind, but Islam doesn’t take little things like that into consideration and demands they dress as if in the sand dunes of Arabia.

  • Trevor

    This article brought up something for me.

    Only two people know about this, and both are Catholics.

    A few months ago, when I was expressing my deepest desire on this forum to partake in the Eucharist, I had a dream one night, where I actually received it. Here’s how it went.

    I was watching a priest, an elder looking one, and he was performing the rite of the Eucharist, taking a handkerchief and dabbling it once in something that looked like a bowl of powder, and covering the bread with it. There were also three glasses that were filled with water, which I surmised to be a symbol of the Trinity, and when the priest have finished the rite, he removed the handkerchief and beckoned me to come. Taking one of the breads, he said to me, “Blessed are those who [at this point in the dream, I was crying river of tears because those who know me knows my sorrow that I would not be able to partake in the Eucharist without having a proper annulment evaluation] hungers and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled,” and gave it to me to be consumed. When as I was chewing, I could taste (and still remember how it tasted) its slightly saltiness, and I was weeping as I went back to my seat. Then I woke up, chest feeling convulsed with sobs.

    This morning, I was dreaming that I was the one giving the Eucharist in what appeared to be a Foursquare building where my wife and I got married in, and I was performing the rite with my back toward the congregation, like the old traditional Latin Mass. When I was finished, I called the congregation to come, and it was chaotic as it was the first time it was ever done in that building. I distinctly remember rejecting two women who were in a relationship by saying, “No,” and then later, three women in a relationship came, all holding hands, and I repeated, “No,” to them. There were some members I had to give a second bread because someone in their family were too invalid to come, and some children wanted it, and I had to gently say, “No.”

    Later, a priest that I know only once, a Polish priest named Father Jarek, and I discussing converting the Foursquare church into a Catholic church, and I told him, “Let’s turn this into the old traditional Latin Mass,” and he agreed wholeheartedly.

    I woke up.

    Let me tell you something, this Foursquare Church was once a mosque that was bought out by a Bible College that is now on the west coast, and the building as well as the land is still under ownership of the Foursquare Church. It would be the irony of all ironies for that church to become a Catholic Church. It is perfectly located right next to a major highway that is highly visible, I drive past it everyday on my way to work. I have no idea what my dreams mean except that it’s like God is telling me I am on the right path.

    • Tom_mcewen

      You need a Catholic Bishop otherwise the Eucharist is null and void, but good dream good luck and a blessing
      Tom

      • Trevor

        Thanks, I think.

        • Tom_mcewen

          The building as you know means nothing, but you need an apostolic bishop for the Eucharist, good plan great dream. Yes it was a positive answer from me.

          • Trevor

            I know, Tom. In the first dream, I don’t know what building I was in, but the second one is based on familiarity.

          • Michelle Therese

            I forgot to tell you we went through an annulment too. I couldn’t take communion for several years. It was not an easy time. May God give you strength!

    • Catbr

      Sounds like you are very sincere and searching. I think the pope is trying to make things easier for people to get annulments. Not sure how annulments work for protestant marriages. Things should fall into place for you eventually. Good luck.

    • racarrera

      Heavy reading, Trevor.

      • Trevor

        Thanks, man. Amazing to remember those details.

        • racarrera

          If you’re remembering, that means this is not a mere dream, but a guidepost.

    • Hi Trevor, what Christian denomination do you belong to?

      • Trevor

        Grew up Baptist. Joined a Charmisatic Pentecoastal church in college. When I remarried, we attended a Foursquare church, and now we basically are church-less.

        We did go to St. Jude Catholic for Ash Wednesday to be marked and I have the picture to prove it. I am a pro-apostloic Christian, or as Rudy once put it, Orthodox Non-Orthodox.

        • Michelle Therese

          May God continue to guide you in this journey! Don’t give up, stay the courseGod has a way of writing straight with our crooked lines. He might be He might be teaching you some serious patience… and you can have spiritual communion. Before I was Catholic I would watch daily Mass on EWTN and during communion time they always have a spiritual communion prayer on the screen and being read out so it’s very helpful.

          You don’t have to sit by on the sidelines and starve! We Catholics and Orthodox would be honored to call you brother and welcome you among us even if you can’t have communion at Mass. You can study about communion, check out books by Scott Hahn “The Lamb’s Supper” which is very easy to read and understand.

          You can also engage in eucharistic adoration on-line, just google for one of the many chapels ~ and you can find many “holy hour” books to help guide you in making a prayerful holy hour once a day to Christ.

          You have every right to engage in the rich tapestry of Catholic and Orthodox devotions ~ Rosary, create a prayer corner rich in spiritual imagery such as using beautiful Icons, these are not idols but works of art that lift our hearts and minds to Christ.

          Remember, the Rosary and such, these are not necessary for salvation ~ don’t be afraid of the false rumors. These are *devotions* to help us focus on Christ for X time ~ the Rosary, especially if you find the Scriptural Rosary (on-line, there are even CDs, scriptural rosary books) with a Bible verse for each bead, it is “The New Testament On A String” !! A beautiful meditation on the life of Christ, nothing more.

          The “Hail Mary” is not about worshiping Mary but is a proclamation of the incarnation of Christ ~ the Rosary is a nice highly concentrated prayer that hammers like a jackhammer against demonic interference, something that bogs down our prayers, just look at poor Daniel that complained to the angel of waiting 28 days for an answer. The poor angel told him the demonic interference was so bad he had to give up and go get St. Michael the Archangel to help him get through! And so *mindful* repetition is very powerful at jack-hammering away at that cloud of the demonic blocking the way. All while saturating yourself with the life of Christ, a win-win! 😀

          Read the book of Wisdom which is amazing. You can FEAST without having to be Catholic/Orthodox or taking Communion because you are welcome among us, loved as a brother in Christ! You have our understanding and sympathy as you struggle with the pain of separation from the Eucharist and will support you, not judge you. (Catholic Bibles are on-line for free, also free on Kindle ~ New American Bible is good, Douay-Rheims is like the Catholic KJV, only older 😉 )

          More feasting, Trevor: You can learn the ancient Liturgy of the Hours, a continuation of the Jewish tradition of praying the holy Psalms that punctuates the day with moments of praying: there is the long 4-volume set, Le Yikes, a bit too much at first, but also the 1-volume “Shorter Christian Prayer”, the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin is also shorter, I try to pray that once a week and I am working myself slowly up from shorter Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office to the 4-volume set. You can find the Liturgy of the Hours prayers for FREE on-line and maybe start with Morning Prayer and Night Prayer? Check out this site:

          http://www.universalis.com

          More feasting: on EWTN.com they have the daily Mass readings, a 3-year cycle that takes you through pretty much all of the Bible, except maybe detailed bits from the laws of Leviticus because we don’t do animal sacrifice any more haha 😉

          Investigate Catholic.com for any questions you have, get into discussions there, find fellowship there, and know you are welcome at a Catholic or Orthodox parish anywhere. Sure, at first the people there are cautions ~ we Catholics/Orthodox do not get in people’s faces and proselytize. We give people SPACE and don’t want to chase them off. Sadly too many mistake this for cold shoulder and snootery but go to the coffee times after Mass and such. Speak with the priest. Speak with the others there ~ show them you won’t be scared away if they speak to you! 🙂

          Don’t starve, my brother in Christ. Feast! And until the day you can take holy communion you can feast on Spiritual Communion, it is not a fake pretend thing but very real! 🙂

          DON’T STARVE! Feast with us! Be our brother in Christ.
          God love you and your dear wife!
          Your sister in Christ,
          ~Michelle Therese

        • So the main reason you left the Baptist is that it isn’t apostolic?

          • Trevor

            They aren’t apostolic.

          • funny thing is they claim that their church had been underground during persecution by the Catholic Church in Rome…no evidence at all.

          • Trevor

            Some claim I’ve heard is they trace their lineage to John the Baptist and one supposition is that he had his own disciples. What they forget is John told them to join with Christ’s and the Gospel doesn’t mention them much except for two who came to Jesus with the infamous question about whether Jesus was the promise one.

    • Perhaps it is that you will finally receive it Trevor and you will also have others be blessed through you to receive it as well while other will not mend their ways to qualify for heaven. Great dream.

      • Trevor

        Yeah, well, I will have to go through annulment before I can partake.

  • The Lord is risen

    People should be very careful about what they say as if they represent God almighty, otherwise they bring a curse upon themselves.all I see is self righteousness and pious people men pleasers full of their own self importance,Pharisees……..

  • Стефан Евгений

    My question is where is this in Holy Tradition? devotion to he Sacred Heart. To Orthodox ears taking a body part and worshiping it is abhorrent and sounds like something Nestoris cooked up. we don’t worship the Logos of God separaited from the incarnated body we worship the Whole Christ.
    I know that it is popular with Catholics, it is, us Orthodox don’t have it….. I find it very confusing
    To our ears it smacks of prelest.
    http://stjohnshermits.org/2016/01/19/sacred-heart-of-jesus-an-orthodox-perspective/

    • Grandmere

      Thanks, Steve. I found both articles very good.

      • Стефан Евгений

        With you as an Anglican and me as a Orthodox, I think we can talk without getting our nappies in a pinch. glad you understand Grandmere.
        This is from one of our bishops one of the last from the “old school” that i grew up in. and miss with a deep sadness.

        “The first person says, “You don’t agree with me. That means you aren’t with me. That means you don’t like me. That means you’re against me. That means you’re out to get me. That means you’re attacking me. That means I have to destroy you”.

        The second person should reply, “No, it means I don’t agree with you. That’s all. Let’s have a cup of coffee and discuss it, and maybe you’ll convince me, or, at least, we might be able to reach some compromise”.

        But, my friends, our reality has shown that the exchange wouldn’t take place. The second person would never have been given the opportunity to respond, and the attack by the first person, with the motive of character assassination would begin. And, my sisters and brothers, there’d be no opportunity for discussion, for dialogue, or for compromise. This scenario was repeated again and again, and continues today, and has become the basis for promoting personal agendas and lusting after power and authority. Is this noble; is it righteous; is it Christian? Can it ever be justifiable as being “for the good of the Church?” God forbid! And may He help us all, because this is how we’ve been operating in the Holy Synod and Central Church Administration for years, and we’re slow to adopt an alternative”.

        Archbishop Job Osacky

        • Grandmere

          Thank you for that, my dear friend, Archbishop Osacky is a very wise man.

    • David W

      I am an Orthodox catechumen Steve, and I see the different language. I am sitting with my coffee, wanting to see calm and reasonable dialogue, and I get a little concerned with the accusations tossed around (FYI, I attended every type, from pentecostalism in the 80s, seeker sensitive in the 90s, Reformed Presby in the 00s, and finally the Orthodox Church)…

      • Стефан Евгений

        Orthodoxy is not easy, but if you stay, it takes 5 years to get the hang of things David. The Church is a Hospital of the soul after all. I will be easy on you, so just ask.

        • Tom_mcewen

          Orthodox is not easy, especially Russian Orthodoxy, where the grandmothers keep an eye on you and are not shy of correcting you and even the priests. They were the guards on Orthodoxy and take their job seriously. I lost count of the number of times my limbs were jerked into position. Grandmothers saved the church in Russia. I miss of course the icons.

          • Стефан Евгений

            To this day, I have dents in my ears from Baba’s boney fingers.

    • Michelle Therese

      Devotion to “Sacred Heart” is simply embracing the love that Christ has for us.

  • 1Bobby8

    Beautiful. Thank you for this Andrew…and thank you for that beautiful music in the video.

  • Grandmere

    How are you able to receive the Eucharist many times a day?

  • AnthonyM

    Thought provoking article Andrew, your insights were good for meditation and well made.
    Bread of Angels, Bread from Heaven.

  • What you say of what I said is true Bert. I think at times I found myself harsh too and I noticed it happens if I comment more than I study and research. I see Flame arguing. I see exwolf joining in in support and now has appointed herself as Flame’s attorney and I see fuel, gas, fumes, hydrogen mixed with gun powder TTP and C4 and I also predict that someone will soon light a match and we will all become instant suicide bombers.

  • Catbr

    Yeah, right. Stow it. Read my other response to flame.

  • Well put.

  • Catbr

    I have seen many people like you on the Journey home show on ewtn. They usually say the same thing, that their wives were catholic and they weren’t but they all after searching out the truth converted to Catholicism. I predict once you start searching for the truth, you will convert too. See you on the Journey home show someday. Lol.
    For the record, I don’t hate protestants, I just get bothered by the ones who for no reason like to hurl insults at Catholicism. Some of my best childhood friends for years were my protestant neighbors. We never sat around talking about which church was better, we just liked each other as very good friends. We all believed in Christmas and Easter and that was all that mattered to us as kids.

  • Kamau41

    Absolutely beautiful, concise and insightful article. Very well done Andrew.

  • AnthonyM

    Remember the rule that the Most Holy Eucharist may received once per day, twice in the same day if the individual materially participates in the celebration of the Mass, observing the guidelines for reception. The stipulation that one receive the second Communion at a Mass “in which he participates” doesn’t apply in the case of those in danger of death (canon 921).
    After Vatican II this restriction was mitigated to permit reception twice on the same day.
    The limit is placed to not encourage casual reception of the Most Holy Eucharist.

  • Isaiah5512

    Sorry Andrew, but Jesus did not change the bread into His body. The New Testament could not begin, could NOT be enforce until after Jesus died. That’s Bible, brother. Therefore, Jesus was speaking figuratively. (Hebrews 9:17) “For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” Jesus was not in a position to give his disciples His Body or His Blood, because The New Testament was “of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

    • Rjk

      Amazing how you can deny something that started 2000 years ago and completely wash it aside. Yet you prefer to believe something that started only 500 years ago by a disgruntled heretic named luther. All those verses referring to the Eucharist and yet you call it B.S

      • Isaiah5512

        Here is what really started 2000 years ago. Jude warning Christians:

        “… certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”
        (Jude 1:19)

        “For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.”
        (2 Cor 11:16)

        Did not even Jesus say, “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.” ? (Matthew 15:8)

        So there was falsehood coming into play, not only as far back as Jesus day, but false members who were defiling the truth “long beforehand marked out for this condemnation…”

        So yes, Catholic teaching goes wayyyy back. But deception began “long beforehand”.

        I did not call anything b.s. We are each to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, (Philippians 2:12 ) but it will not hurt if each of us express ourselves without becoming insulting or trying to force our beliefs on anyone.

        • Стефан Евгений

          These words were ment for us Orthodox, to warn us against people like you. You take 27 books that we put together by our BISHOPS AND CLAM IT AS YOURS.and you are the only ones that knows it. AND WHAT IT IS SPEAKING OF. You can hardly grasp the English, much less the Greek original.
          Let Fr James Bernstein help you with who put the bible together.
          http://orthodoxmartyria.blogspot.com/2012/06/who-gave-us-new-testament-fr-james.html

    • Tom_mcewen

      You are mentioned in John 6:66. P.S. the New Testament is not the bible.

    • Стефан Евгений

      I wonder if people who hold views like yours actually Read scripture ?
      Jn 49-67
      …49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50″This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51″I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”…
      52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.…
      54″He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55″For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56″He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.…
      …55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56″He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57″As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

      The Jew got it right why can’t you people…… Then Christ goes on to say.

      60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?…
      62″What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63″It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.…

      Some still do this sadly……66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”…

      Orthodox say this prayer before partaking.

      I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first (see 1 Tim 1:15).

      I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own most precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: Have mercy upon me and forgive me my transgressions, committed in word and deed, whether consciously or unconsciously.

      And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting.

      Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant. For I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: “Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.”

      May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, 0 Lord, but to the healing of soul and body.

      • Grandmere

        Beautiful prayer. Poor old Isaiah seems to think the word “Testament” only refers to a will. That is what private interpretation gets you. Sad.

        • Стефан Евгений

          i may take this in parts, not sure.

          • Grandmere

            We need a Greek speaker for this task. Go for it, brat.

          • Стефан Евгений

            I have to work on it, the power outings and flooding makes it hard to work on the laptop.

      • The really slim shady

        “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” John 4:14

        Is that literal or figurative water that Jesus is giving out?

        • Стефан Евгений

          It is related to the above search this and you will find my answer. ὕδωρ ζωῆς

          • The really slim shady

            I looked that up.
            Looks like what youve offered me is the phrase “living water”, but i only speak english and could be wrong.

            I found a whole host of things on what living water is, but that wasnt my question.

            I was wondering if the water was literal or figurative.
            The way i see it its not actual water at all, Jesus just used it as an analogy.
            As in when were thirsty water quenches that thirst, and when were spiritually thirsty Jesus quenches that thirst.

            I see the same thing with the body and blood. We dont literally ingest God to be nourished by Him its an analogy.
            “Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.” John 4:34

            God and His Word are nourishment on their own, it sustains us.
            We live on “every Word of God”.

            Jesus used common things like hunger and thirst to relay a deeper message of our spiritual emptiness.
            And drinking water and ingesting what is perceived as Gods flesh is not the reaction He was looking for.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Christ is speaking of the Holy Sprit the living water.
            It is the Holy Sprit that changes the bread into Christ’s body and blood.

          • The really slim shady

            Youre right, its not literal water at all but the Holy Spirit.
            And its the Holy Spirit who transforms us into the likeness of Christ, thats the only change that the Bible discusses.

            Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is to take on the sacrifice he laid out for you – to make it part of yourself.
            You do that with faith, not transubstantiation.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Orthodox don’t teach transubstantiation, that is a Catholic teaching.
            http://daphneisgood.tripod.com/essays/id8.html

          • The really slim shady

            Forgive me for being difficult, but i read your article and dont see much of a difference.

            Its definitely a bit challenging of an article, ive read through it a couple times.

            Seems like its saying that Christs presence is in everything which He has made whole (in communion with God). So, in reality Christ is in all life – since He is life.

            In that way, were still eating His flesh and drinking His blood, albeit not in a literal way.

            Am i close?

          • Стефан Евгений

            There is a big diffrence, we did not come up with a formula to describe it. Orthodoxy also describes the Eucharist as a mystery, but it is a mystery that rejects formal attempts at explanation.

          • The really slim shady

            Ok, well I’ll maybe read through it again sometime.
            When I read it I don’t feel utterly repulsed, indicated I disagree with it. It’s just definitely not a “Theology for Dummies” article.

          • Стефан Евгений

            My question to some protestents, that hold the view that it is not literal, is that you don’t fall dead from grapejuse and a cracker.
            1ST COR 11;28 ……. …28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.… that is a way of saying dead.

            St JUSTIN
            “And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

            For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” – (First Apology, 66)

          • The really slim shady

            You said there was a question but didnt really ask one.
            But i think i see what youre saying, “why not just do it”?

            Thered be a couple answers to that;
            One, in many churches you have to basically be a member to take their communion. At least you have to go to some classes usually. And im not a member of any organization, and dont want to be.

            Second, and my main reason, i see communion as something else entirely.
            “Wherever two or more come together in My name there I am”.
            When we come together as a body to reflect on Jesus our redeemer that is communion. Its not about eating and drinking, its about remembering the body that was broken and the blood that was shed.

            Thats why I believe the bread and wine are symbols, just like we break bread – Jesus body was broken for us. Just like wine is poured out, so too was Jesus blood.

            I know thats not what the people here believe, and I understand im probably in the minority on the evangelical side as well, but that is what im convinced of – and I leave it to God to convince me otherwise.

          • Flame blue

            Why do Orthodox not teach transubstantaition? Does that mean from a Roman Catholic viewpoint you are not Christians? Are Roman Catholics, the only Church that does teach that the wine and bread literally change into the flesh and blood of Jesus?

          • Стефан Евгений

            FB, Orthodox object to coming up with a formula to explain it.
            ”The word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord; for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified, that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord ”(English translation in R. W. Blackmore, The Doctrine of the Russian Church, London, 1845, p. 92).

            And the Catechism continues with a quotation from john of Damascus: ‘If you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it is through the Holy Spirit … we know nothing more than this, that the word of God is true, active, and omnipotent, but in its manner of operation unsearchable (On the Orthodox Faith, 4, 13 (P.G. 94, 1145A)).

            As to what Catholics think of us is either good or bad some have really nasty words for us.

          • Flame blue

            Thank you, very interesting.

            We are all the Lord’s sheep in Christian fields, Jesus our Shepherd.

            Up in Heaven, when they come along falling on their face in adoration, and for judgement, Jesus should lift up his staff, and say ” you can stay in the pastures of Heaven after l pass judgment, and whip them with his Shepherd crook stick, for being bad black rams”. That would serve them right, those nasty bullies who use nasty words for you Christians of Russian fields.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Thanks FLAME!. see this interview, yes we can get along.

          • Flame blue

            I watched it. The bishop looks Christian to me. Those people who accost him and say ” do you believe in Jesus etc” they wouldn’t dare go up to a Muslim imam or any identifiable Muslim and say such a thing. They know your bishop is not Muslim or they wouldn’t approach him.

            I am sad that this wickedness is happening. I am nauseated by it! The bishop is clearly, a kind, compassionate, righteous man trying to evolve to be like Jesus.

            I liked him, and totally agree with him when he says that he believes Christians must be strong and courageous, but he has no time for all who turn a blind eye to evil and forgive vile people their wickedness, which is soft mamsy pamsy false Christianity. I can’t remember his exact words but l picked up his meaning. I agree, that is not Christianity, it is cowardly and weak. The only time, l would forgive evil people is when they stop being evil, and turn to Jesus for salvation.

            I agree that your Church has evolved from the true roots of pious Jews, who accepted the New Testament prior to its canonisation in 325 AD and who were the bishops who were called to the Court of the Emperor Constantine with scrolls of scripture in hand which they had used in their churches.

            My view as a unique Christian person in the service of Jesus and known to him and him to me, is that all Christian Churches are but one Church. Just as we all have many languages, nations, God established his Christian Church as many but One. Of course, when l say that kind of thing, l attract fruit cakes who argue that JW or Mormons or Arians are not Christians. But l am not including them!

            Arianism is diabolical and has caused much evil in the World to this very day. Islam is Arianism and l think JW and Mormons are too, although the JW are not a threat to human life. They are just some sort of sickly sheep who God may be inclined to take pity on these runts. We can tackle these JW and Mormons and teach them the truth, we can make progress with them using skilled Christians. Muslims are basically a hopeless case who needs God in person to remove the demons within them.

            There are different types of heresy, l can’t name them all, but any sect who says Jesus is not divine, or did not live in a true human body or was not crucified, and did not rise from death and is not a Saviour, they are not my brethren, they are dangerous anti-Christs, killers who are out to attack Christian flocks.

            My best wishes to you and your Orthodox Church, may it enlarge rapidly.

          • Grandmere

            Don’t forget. Jesus changed water into wine.

        • Isaiah5512

          Future tense. Jesus had not yet inherited anything, so neither could He pass along anything that was everlasting when He was speaking those words. The New testament was not enforce until He gave, not crackers, but His real FLESH for our salvation, because “… a testament is of force after men are dead…” (Hebrews 9:17) Therefore Jesus imparted only words at the last supper, no transubstantiation, again, simply because “a testament is of force after men are dead.” It is not I who is not reading scripture. You cannot take allegory, a parable or symbolism and try to prove a doctrine with those as being something literal, when very plain scriptures explain that our cup is to die daily and suffer persecution. The water you quoted is also symbolism, and is not literal water splashing all over the place. Same thing with the bread and wine. Jesus is The Bread, but He is not literal bread, no more than He is a literal door made of wood that we must enter or a literal narrow gate made of iron. Jesus used things we can relate to in order to make spiritual things easier to understand. I truly feel sorry for those who can’t get that.

          • The really slim shady

            I dont know if you realize this, but im actually on your side…lol

            I think you meant this for the other guy, whos name i cant pronounce or even write on my keyboard.

          • Стефан Евгений

            It is Stefan Evgenii

          • The really slim shady

            Thats your name?
            Thats what your avatar label says?

            How did you make that O with the line through it?

          • Стефан Евгений

            Ok the power is back…. the o with a line is a Russian F, i have a Russian keys

          • The really slim shady

            Wow, thats a F?

            And keys, well that makes a bunch more sense than what I was thinking.
            I thought you knew like those little tricks programmers use to utilize different characters.

          • Стефан Евгений
          • Michelle Therese

            Shhhh… he knows better then Christ Himself what is and is not Christ’s flesh and blood. We should show respect as we stand in awe of his mighty wisdom. 😉

      • Isaiah5512

        Exactly the opposite, my friend. Jesus said, “…and the bread also which I WILL GIVE (future tense) for the life of the world is My flesh.” … not a cracker in the present tense..Yes, the Jews DID take Jesus literally, as you do… and they were absolutely horrified and disgusted and many of His disciples deserted Jesus over that saying, for not comprehending (for not having ears to hear) that Jesus was speaking figuratively. I quoted very clear scripture to prove to you that Jesus had absolutely NO authority to pass along his body in the form of a cracker, or His Blood in the form of wine during the last supper, because He was still alive, He had not yet died, and scripture proclaims that as such, the testament, that is, The New Testament, was “of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:17) It is against Jewish law to drink blood. But it IS lawful to drink if the same cup that Jesus drank of, to be willing to suffer and die for Jesus’ sake. That is the cup the Christian is to drink from, which Jesus spoke of in a figurative way, since during the last supper, He had not, as of yet, inherited anything that He could give to his disciples, because again (Hebrews 9:17) says so.

        • Стефан Евгений

          I happen not to have a craker god….. we have a risen bread called artos same word that describes the bread Christ used.
          You have become your own infalable pope

          • Michelle Therese

            You know better then Christ what is and is not His flesh?
            I stand in awe!

        • Стефан Евгений

          So did God die and you took his place? who are you to clame Christ could not change laws. It was the pre incarnate Christ that gave the law.
          The orignal Greek tence is not figurative,
          http://daphneisgood.tripod.com/essays/id8.html

  • Flame blue

    Yes, l know Mary is in Heaven, my dear, of course she is! All those in Heaven are not sinners because no sin exists in Heaven. When you go there, you will have no sin, for Sin cannot enter into Heaven. On Earth, Mary was very pious and wholesome, a good pious Jewish woman, to be used in God’s plan that salvation comes through the Jewish people, not the Muslims, the Jews! Mary is very loving, l know her, l know that for a fact!

  • The really slim shady

    Immaculately conceieved (like Jesus).
    Body taken to heaven (like Jesus).
    Never sinned (like Jesus).

    What did Jesus do that Mary didnt?
    Why was there a need for Jesus, she could have just died for our sins.
    And the way shes portrayed, she seems more willing to die for our sins than Jesus Himself.

    Thats what people mean by Mary worship.

  • The really slim shady

    What part does she play in salvation?
    Her supposedly being sinless profits nothings.
    Her supposed immaculate conception profits nothing.
    Her ascending bodily to heaven profits nothing.
    Her remaining a virgin her whole life….no need for it.

    Other than bearing Jesus she has done nothing for your or my salvation.
    Jesus didn’t receive His perfection from His mother but His Father.

    Jesus was not conceived? That’s a new one to me.
    “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.” Luke 1:31

    Mary supposedly could have filled the role of an unblemished sacrifice, then God killed His Son for no reason.
    The fact is it was impossible for any human to be flawless (even Mary), that’s why He HAD to kill His Son.

    And if God could simply indwell someone in the womb, as Mary’s “Immaculate Conception” suggests – and cause her to be a perfect human being, Jesus died in vain.
    God could bypass the laws of nature and just fill every Christian baby with enough spirit to keep him perfect, why would He kill His son?
    (Because sin is inherited from the father’s seed, thus Jesus can be the only one who never sinned because His Father is God).

    Where is Mary when Jesus is being tempted in the wilderness? How about in Gethsemane?
    Mary is such a central figure, where is she in MOST of the NT?
    Why did Mary get upset at Jesus when she lost Him in Jerusalem?

    “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
    But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” Luke 11:27-28
    Why did Jesus correct this woman?

    Let’s see what the word “worship” means when it’s used as a verb;

    WORSHIP, verb transitive
    1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.
    2. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence.
    3. To honor with extravagant love and extreme submission; as a lover.

    WORSHIP, verb intransitive
    1. To perform acts of adoration.
    2. To perform religious service.

    Now I’m no English professor……

    • Grandmere

      I want to be there when you tell that to Jesus. Uh, oh!

      • The really slim shady

        I want you to be there too!

  • sendtheclunkerbacktochicago

    Folks would be better served in becoming established in their faith by beginning in Paul’s epistle to the Romans. Paul brilliantly establishes the doctrine of our justification by grace through faith. Paul’s goal is to give you complete knowledge of our PERFECT judicial standing before God having trusted Christ as our Savior, and the TOTAL assurance in the eternal nature of that judicial standing. That is the first cornerstone of your salvation (Romans 1 thru 5).

    The second cornerstone is the establishment in the doctrine or our sanctification by grace through faith. Paul’s goal here is the complete knowledge of our sanctified standing before God “IN CHRIST,” which enables us to “live unto God.” (Romans 6 thru 8). Paul is always focused on your establishment in the faith so that their is no doubt as to what happened to you when you trusted in the “gospel of Christ.” This is a foundation built on solid ground, not sand.

    The third cornerstone is the establishment in the doctrine of the dispensation of gentile grace now in effect – that began with Paul and the revelation given to him by the risen Christ, not man. Paul’s goal here is to understand and appreciate what God has done with Israel, that His program with them is temporarily in abeyance, and that we live in a NEW and different dispensation formerly kept secret until revealed to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. That was Paul’s divinely appointed office. (Romans 9 thru 11). You begin to understand why Paul stresses the importance of “rightly dividing the word of truth” here.

    The fourth cornerstone is the establishment in the doctrine of walking worthy of who we are now as justified, sanctified, members of God’s “NEW creation” in this NEW dispensation.

    One can foolishly tell a person who shows interest in the Bible to begin his or her study of the Scriptures in various books of the Bible. The most common approach is to have them begin with the gospel accounts and John in particular where Christ is presented as Messiah God. That would not be the proper place for one to become anchored (established) in their new found faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul brilliantly presents that establishment in Romans. The “dictionary of the Gospel of Christ” is presented in Romans.

    I present this because articles like the one presented here serve NO purpose. I scroll through the comments made after articles are published like this and discover that very, very few people do not express themselves as people who have been established in the faith that saves them from the debt and penalty of their sins and justified unto eternal life as a result of that salvation. I ask, are you building upon solid ground or sand?

    A very simple survey of the Scriptures should lead one to discover that from Genesis Chapter 12 thru to Acts Chapter 7 and later picked up again in Hebrews thru Revelation are books written to and for Israel with the gospels and Hebrews thru Revelation for the “remnant” “little flock” saved out of that apostate Jewish nation. By constantly presenting articles with material from God’s program with Israel and attempting to apply them to the “body of Christ” the “one NEW man” the “NEW creature” (emphasis on “NEW”) really allows for one to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

    • Michelle Therese

      I would never direct anyone to place Paul’s words over Christ’s. Start with the Gospels every time.

  • Glad to have made your day. I just hope Flame is alright.

  • Bless you brother Bert. Send my best to your beloved wife.

  • Patsy Koenig

    You are so right, Walid Shoebat. “Sola Scriptura” is nonsense. We achieve a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Eucharist. God bless you and your apostolate.

  • Grandmere

    Stop trying to bait someone into an argument, Tim.

    • Just bait him with the cheese. Missed the sound of that SNAP which breaks his neck quickly 😉

  • Michelle Therese

    Thank you for making the time to write these great articles, Andrew B. !

  • Michelle Therese

    Because we would puke our guts out if we saw that every time. God is merciful and doesn’t want to torture us.

  • Whoever says Mary is “the Whore of Babylon” are themselves the Whore of Babylon.

    • Michelle Therese

      Yes, indeed. I can’t even imagine where they get this idea in their heads, it is insane.

      • “I can’t even imagine where they get this idea in their heads”

        From the very devil whom they always slander others of being of the devil.

  • Craig A. Mouldey

    Wow, good one Tom. With that I will simply add a firm AMEN

  • Craig A. Mouldey

    Everything is very tame in here from what I’ve seen thus far. You want to see vile and vicious? I can take you to a few ‘Christian’ chat rooms to make a comparison.

  • The really slim shady

    Really dont feel like arguing over the gravity of words, as if honor isnt stong enough…lol

    I give Mary the same respect i give every other saint (every true Christian).

    Jesus will reward her for her service just like every other Christian at the Great White Throne Judgement.

    Tradition has fomulated a whole story around Mary, who is only mentioned a tiny bit in the whole Bible.
    Someone so pivotal youd think would take up more of the script.

    • AnthonyM

      Community Service Award for Mary, LOL, you crack me up!

      Remember, Jesus followed the 10 Commandments, Including ‘Glorify your father and mother. So you can be sure Jesus has glorified her, and for us to be irreverent or flip about Mary is to impugn her and the glory given to her. Just sayin.

      I was about to say ‘You’re right, her name is not mentioned even once in the Old Testament’, but honestly, her part in salvation was mentioned beginning in Genesis. “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall strike at His heel.”

      She is the 2nd Eve. But she was mentioned many major events of the life of Jesus, from beginning to end. Not in the Last Supper as that was the beginning of the priesthood.

      Just to be clear, Catholics follow scripture, but also draw from sacred tradition, not the tradition of men. The early Church Fathers clearly understood and appreciated Mary’s role.

      It was the tradition of men that inspired Luther, and the hodgepodge that followed.

      • The really slim shady

        My Bibe says “honor” your father and mother, not “glorify”…lol

        And “Sacred Tradition” is the tradition of men – you just consider it sacred.

        I wouldnt argue that Lutherans and the lot of Protestants dont follow their own traditions.
        I dont follow theirs either.

        My dad likes to watch the Christian preachers on TV all day sunday – thats his tradition, i dont follow that either.

        Other than whats mentioned in the Bible for Doctrine, i observe mostly my own traditions (though i still celebrate Christmas to a point).

        • AnthonyM

          That is the commonly used word, but I’ve been told that in Hebrew it literally reads, “Glorify your father and mother.”

          You’re confused on traditions. In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: “The Word of God”), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: “Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

          There is no sacred tradition in Protestantism because Martin Luther founded his own church on what he felt was right. He was not commissioned by Jesus, or divinely inspired.

          Prov 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

          • The really slim shady

            “I’ve been told that in Hebrew it literally reads”
            Did you think about that before you wrote it?

            I do appreciate you taking the time to quote things for me to read though, its good to get to know them.
            Id agree with this declaration, except i can see what “Sacred Tradition” has become doesnt much resemble the “full purity” of Gods Word.

            Why does every Catholic think youre a Lutheran if youre not Catholic?
            I disagree with Luther on many things.
            I went to Lutheran school for 8 years, was “handed over to the devil” (in writing…lol) because we quit attending the school/church, and two of the clergy came to bully me at my house (i was 13).
            Trust me, a follower of Luther I am not (all my extended family is).
            But they do have their traditions. Were you aware my grandmother is spinning in her grave because i wasnt confirmed Lutheran?
            Because “Ive been told that…”

            “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matt 15:9

          • AnthonyM

            This is old post, but I wanted to give you a reply.

            It is about Authority. You seem to have set yourself up as your own authority, acting as your own pope (small p).

            Think about this, Jesus did not leave a Bible. He did not tell the apostles to read his book. He left 12 men and Peter with the keys. What they taught and preached, became apostolic tradition. There was no Bible until the Catholic Church decided what should be included in it as divinely inspired. They picked 27 books and the 4 gospels. This was around the late 2nd 3rd century. Prior to that the Church teaching were only apostolic or sacred tradition. One of the criteria how the bishops decided what was inspired is did it agree with sacred or apostolic tradition. The books that corresponded were included in the canon of scripture. Those that did not correspond were excluded.

            Sadly, Luther took the Catholic bible (73 books), tore out those books that conflicted with his ideas. That is the beginning of the protestant bible (66 books).

            I didn’t think you were Lutheran, but Protestant, which to me is the umbrella under which exists all non-Catholic Christianity. You can determine if you are on the Catholic trunk or Protestant branch by counting the number of books in your Bible.

          • The really slim shady

            We have a completely different outlook on just about everything you said, but thank you for getting back to me.

            Are you aware there’s currently more than two canons in the world?
            It makes sense to me that canon isnt “closed” considering that fact.

            (Back to the top)

            In a sense, i suppose youre right – I am my own authority.
            At least in the areas i can be.
            God tells us to subject ourselves to the governing authorities – The church doesnt govern over me, like the hand doesnt govern the foot.
            Other than the things I must render to Caesar, Jesus is my Governor – just as He is the rest of the church.

            The Bible is a collection of many books.
            The books contained in the Bible may not have been available as a complete collection until the second or third century – yet they were cleary in circulation individually, and thats widely documented.

            I bet even you can see that the Bible began with Moses; made its way through Jerusalem, Babylon, back to Egypt, Rome, Europe and Asia, and finally the whole world.
            It has been an ongoing effort by many people and organizations, its spanned most of the history of mankind.
            The books of the Bible contain the interactions of men with God, as well as many of the direct words of God.
            God in His supreme wisdom had the foresight to get a written copy of it so EVERYBODY can have access to it.

            Rome didnt make the Bible, God used every avenue to make the Bible widely available for everyone.
            Yes, He used Rome.
            He also used Israel.
            And yes, He also used the Protestants.

            Without the original Protestants we’d all worshiping in Latin and all be forbidden from having/reading the Bible because they cosider the lay people “illiterate”.

            The Bible isnt the important part, thats just the roadmap of how to get to the destination; but thank God He gave it to us.

            Being a Christian isnt about knowing every thing there is to know about the Bible or the Church, but having our Spirit being made into the likeness of His Spirit – the way we were originally made.

      • Grandmere

        S-N-A-P !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • AnthonyM

          I wonder if Jesus will hand out the C.S.A.s alphabetically, so at least Mary will get hers before Obama?!

  • The really slim shady

    Lol.
    Find an impartial person?
    That would be much harder than finding a sun-worshipping Catholic.

  • The really slim shady

    Ive been pretty well schooled on the Catholic view of the Bible right here on Shoebat.com
    Im aware of how the Bible was put together, I just disagree on who was responsible for it.

    Where you see the Church as the author, I see God as the author.
    The Church is the vehicle used to do it, not on their own inspiration – but Gods.
    The Gospel is the story of redemption for man, the OT is a story of the coming redemption for man.

    God is the keeper of His Word, not men.

    I agree with your point on reading it to debunk it, if thats what i was aiming to do.
    And if i had more time i might. Youtube videos are more my free time right now…lol
    But honestly, i feel i have a good grasp on the creation of the Bible, and really our only difference is one of outlook.

    I think of all the “holy men” as fellow laborers.
    When im at work i let the boss compensate his employees.
    (Although i always thought its a good idea to buy your underlings lunch and whatnot sometimes to keep them working hard for you)
    But generally, glory and honor is the bosses job.

  • The really slim shady

    There is only one Church, just happens to be many denominations.

    The writers of the Bible were not Roman Catholic.
    All of the common people who copied and shared and ultimately formed the canon were not all Roman Catholic.
    Many translators of the Bible were in fact Protestant, and not Roman Catholic.

    Just like God used people who identify as Roman Catholics He also used people who considered themselves something different.

    My bet is many of the people that are claimed as the fathers of the RCC wouldnt have anything to do with it today, and would probably be considered heretics by it.