Major Division Not Seen In Catholic Church For Centuries Erupts As 60 Major Catholic Cardinals, Priests, Bishops, And Laity Issue Declaration Of Heresy To Pope Francis

Sixty major Catholic Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and laymen have signed a declaration issuing a formal “correction” to Pope Francis for preaching heretical teachings and ask him to clarify statements he has made or repent of heretical teachings. The document is the first time in at least five centuries- before the Protestant Revolution- that this has happened:

Most Holy Father,

With profound grief, but moved by fidelity to our Lord Jesus Christ, by love for the Church and for the papacy, and by filial devotion toward yourself, we are compelled to address a correction to Your Holiness on account of the propagation of heresies effected by the apostolic exhortation Amoris laetitia and by other words, deeds and omissions of Your Holiness.

We are permitted to issue this correction by natural law, by the law of Christ, and by the law of the Church, which three things Your Holiness has been appointed by divine providence to guard. By natural law: for as subjects have by nature a duty to obey their superiors in all lawful things, so they have a right to be governed according to law, and therefore to insist, where need be, that their superiors so govern. By the law of Christ: for His Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to rebuke Peter in public when the latter did not act according to the truth of the gospel (Gal. 2). St Thomas Aquinas notes that this public rebuke from a subject to a superior was licit on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning the faith (Summa Theologiae 2a 2ae, 33, 4 ad 2), and ‘the gloss of St Augustine’ adds that on this occasion, “Peter gave an example to superiors, that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects” (ibid.). The law of the Church also constrains us, since it states that “Christ’s faithful . . . have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence, and position, to manifest to the sacred pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church” (Code of Canon Law 212:2-3; Code of Canons of Oriental Churches 15:3).

Scandal concerning faith and morals has been given to the Church and to the world by the publication of Amoris laetitia and by other acts through which Your Holiness has sufficiently made clear the scope and purpose of this document. Heresies and other errors have in consequence spread through the Church; for while some bishops and cardinals have continued to defend the divinely revealed truths about marriage, the moral law, and the reception of the sacraments, others have denied these truths, and have received from Your Holiness not rebuke but favour. Those cardinals, by contrast, who have submitteddubia to Your Holiness, in order that by this time-honoured method the truth of the gospel might be easily affirmed, have received no answer but silence.

Most Holy Father, the Petrine ministry has not been entrusted to you that you might impose strange doctrines on the faithful, but so that you may, as a faithful steward, guard the deposit against the day of the Lord’s return (Lk. 12; 1 Tim. 6:20). We adhere wholeheartedly to the doctrine of papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council, and therefore we adhere to the explanation which that same council gave of this charism, which includes this declaration: “The Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles” (Pastor aeternus, cap. 4). For this reason, Your Predecessor, Blessed Pius IX, praised the collective declaration of the German bishops, who noted that “the opinion according to which the pope is ‘an absolute sovereign because of his infallibility’ is based on a completely false understanding of the dogma of papal infallibility.”

The final part, called ‘Elucidation’, discusses two causes of this unique crisis. One cause is ‘Modernism’. Theologically speaking, Modernism is the belief that God has not delivered definite truths to the Church, which she must continue to teach in exactly the same sense until the end of time. Modernists hold that God communicates to mankind only experiences., which human beings can reflect on, so as to make various statements about God, life and religion; but such statements are only provisional, never fixed dogmas. Modernism was condemned by Pope St Pius X at the start of the 20th century, but it revived in the middle of the century. The great and continuing confusion caused in the Catholic Church by Modernism obliges the signatories to describe the true meaning of ‘faith’, ‘heresy’, ‘revelation’, and ‘magisterium’.
A second cause of the crisis is the apparent influence of the ideas of Martin Luther on Pope Francis. The letter shows how Luther, the founder of Protestantism, had ideas on marriage, divorce, forgiveness, and divine law which correspond to those which the pope has promoted by word, deed and omission. It also notes the explicit and unprecedented praise given by Pope Francis to the German heresiarch.
The signatories do not venture to judge the degree of awareness with which Pope Francis has propagated the 7 heresies which they list. But they respectfully insist that he condemn these heresies, which he has directly or indirectly upheld.
The signatories profess their loyalty to the holy Roman Church, assure the pope of their prayers, and ask for his apostolic blessing. (source)

As the document notes, this is not an absolute condemnation of heresy, but a step before it. It is listing of heretical teachings that the Pope has spoken, the sources from where this conclusion was derived, and asking him in a direct manner to address with a explanation his positions or to repent of their heresy.

This situation has been building up for some time in the Church. They very short, condensed answer to this story is that it is not an issue over whether or not the Faith is correct, but about certain teachings which as the document notes, Pope Francis has publicly announced and which he has refused to clarity.

Pope Francis has been a subject of controversy for many Catholics. Some love him. Others completely hate him. Both the love or hate for Francis is unusually strong for a pope, and considering that the last formal anti-pope was around 1445, such divisions have not been seen in the Church between fellow Catholics since almost a century before the Protestant Revolution. There is a precedent in Church history for the angst one sees to day, but not in any contemporary sense for the last 500 years.

As the document lays out, there are seven specific points which are being called into question, all of them surrounding the issues of marriage and the family, as the Catholic Blog OnePeterFive has translated from the Latin:

By these words, deeds, and omissions, and by the above-mentioned passages of the document Amoris laetitia, Your Holiness has upheld, directly or indirectly, and, with what degree of awareness we do not seek to judge, both by public office and by private act propagated in the Church the following false and heretical propositions:

1). ‘A justified person has not the strength with God’s grace to carry out the objective demands of the divine law, as though any of the commandments of God are impossible for the justified; or as meaning that God’s grace, when it produces justification in an individual, does not invariably and of its nature produce conversion from all serious sin, or is not sufficient for conversion from all serious sin.’

2). ‘Christians who have obtained a civil divorce from the spouse to whom they are validly married and have contracted a civil marriage with some other person during the lifetime of their spouse, who live more uxorio with their civil partner, and who choose to remain in this state with full knowledge of the nature of their act and full consent of the will to that act, are not necessarily in a state of mortal sin, and can receive sanctifying grace and grow in charity.’

3). ‘A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.’

4). ‘A person is able, while he obeys a divine prohibition, to sin against God by that very act of obedience.’

5). ‘Conscience can truly and rightly judge that sexual acts between persons who have contracted a civil marriage with each other, although one or both of them is sacramentally married to another person, can sometimes be morally right or requested or even commanded by God.’

6). ‘Moral principles and moral truths contained in divine revelation and in the natural law do not include negative prohibitions that absolutely forbid particular kinds of action, inasmuch as these are always gravely unlawful on account of their object.’

7). ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ wills that the Church abandon her perennial discipline of refusing the Eucharist to the divorced and remarried and of refusing absolution to the divorced and remarried who do not express contrition for their state of life and a firm purpose of amendment with regard to it.’ (source)

Last year, the American Raymond Cardinal Burke and three other Cardinals issued a formal Dubia to Pope Francis, asking him to clarify his statements on the above-stated matters:

It is asked whether, following the affirmations of Amoris Laetitia (300-305), it has now become possible to grant absolution in the sacrament of penance and thus to admit to holy Communion a person who, while bound by a valid marital bond, lives together with a different person more uxorio without fulfilling the conditions provided for by Familiaris Consortio, 84, and subsequently reaffirmed by Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, 34, and Sacramentum Caritatis, 29. Can the expression “in certain cases” found in Note 351 (305) of the exhortation Amoris Laetitia be applied to divorced persons who are in a new union and who continue to live more uxorio?

After the publication of the post-synodal exhortation Amoris Laetitia (304), does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, 79, based on sacred Scripture and on the Tradition of the Church, on the existence of absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts and that are binding without exceptions?

After Amoris Laetitia (301) is it still possible to affirm that a person who habitually lives in contradiction to a commandment of God’s law, as for instance the one that prohibits adultery (Matthew 19:3-9), finds him or herself in an objective situation of grave habitual sin (Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, “Declaration,” June 24, 2000)?

After the affirmations of Amoris Laetitia (302) on “circumstances which mitigate moral responsibility,” does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, 81, based on sacred Scripture and on the Tradition of the Church, according to which “circumstances or intentions can never transform an act intrinsically evil by virtue of its object into an act ‘subjectively’ good or defensible as a choice”?

After Amoris Laetitia (303) does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, 56, based on sacred Scripture and on the Tradition of the Church, that excludes a creative interpretation of the role of conscience and that emphasizes that conscience can never be authorized to legitimate exceptions to absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts by virtue of their object? (source)

All of this is a very serious matter. What is being stated is that Pope Francis, for the first time in centuries as it concerns a Pope, is being formally accused in accordance with Church procedures of heresy by attempting to redefine divinely revealed teachings.

While the charges are serious, this is also an excellent teaching opportunity for the power and limits of the pope. Contrary to what many Protestants and even non-Christians think, the Pope cannot arbitrarily teach anything he wants in his formal capacity as pope. Sure, he is an individual with an opinion and his opinions on various matters may be right or wrong, but that is when he speaks in the capacity of his personal views as an individual, not as the temporal guardian of the Church. When speaking as the Pope, his job is not to create new dogmas because dogmas are divinely revealed truths from God. Since God is the author and not man, it is for man to understand and expound upon that which already exists, not to redefine, create or eliminate anything because it is not his place to do so because the dogmas are not his. The dogmas are like a trust fund, where God is the one who created the trust and who is belongs to, and the Pope is the guardian, or trustee, of the trust. The Pope’s job is to watch over the trust, and he cannot add to or subtract anything from it. He can only report what is already there.

This is why the charges are so serious- because Pope Francis is being charged with attempting to illegally modify the contents of God’s deposit of Faith he gave to His Church. It is another way of saying that the Pope is attempting to rob God or even worse, play God by attempting to speak in His place instead of as His representative.

A second point that is to be made is that what is taking place here, while it is something that has not been since the 15th century, is not new as far as Church history is concerned. There have been many popes who were heretics or just bad people. However, as noted above, the Pope is merely a trustee. He did not create the teachings of the Church, and he cannot eliminate them because they do not belong to him. Likewise, since they do not belong to him, his behavior as a person or his individual ideas cannot change or affect them in any way. The only thing that the pope can do is affect the perception of the Church, for better or worse. Indeed, he has a moral responsibility to make sure that the dignity of his office is preserved and that he represents Christ’s Church well, but even if he does a terrible job, his behavior as an individual does not change the teachings of the Church.

St. Athanasius

For example, there was a Pope in the early Church name Liberius who wanted to make peace with the Arians, a group of heretics in the early Church who denied the divinity of Christ. As such, he signed an ambiguous declaration of faith that could be interpreted as either being Catholic or Arian without any clarity, and he likewise upheld the excommunication of St. Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, Egypt who was later canonized for being a staunch defender of the Faith against the Arian heresy.

Fr. James Martin, appointed head of communications for the Vatican by Pope Francis.

No, this photo is not a joke. It is also not a joke that he is a supporter of homosexuality and homosexual unions.

If this sounds familiar, it should because this is similar to what is happening today. Pope Francis’ ambiguous statements have paralyzed many in the Church, and due to his refusal to clarify them even when formally asked by fellow bishops he refuses to, and the result has been widespread confusion and disorder. In the meantime, as we have pointed out, there is a tremendous movement in the Church, lead in particular by heretical bishops from Germany, Holland, and even the USA, to legitimize communion for divorced and remarried as well as to give legitimacy to the horrendous abomination of homosexual unions. The latter has been made a particular issue in the USA due to the appointment of Fr. James Martin by Pope Francis to the Vatican department of communications, especially in light of how Fr. Martin is a passionate advocate of homosexual unions, brags that homosexuality can lead to sainthood, and even made the abominable statement that Mary, Mother of God may have been a lesbian.

Again, the issue here is not that Fr. Martin is clearly a heretical priest who is worthy of death for multiple crimes, but that he was appointed by Pope Francis, that after he made and continues to make and defends his past statements that Pope Francis will not do anything to correct him, and that Pope Francis has a clear history from the beginning of his papacy and continuing forward of making statements that would seem to support heretical or sinful positions while at the same time refusing to clarify his statements.

Finally- and the most important part to remember- is that what is happening with Francis today does not mean it is THE END OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. This is a common statement made so often but it fails to take into account the history of the Church as a whole. To put some context around this, consider that there have been 42 formal anti-popes, not even mentioning actual heretical popes. These are false claimants to the papal office, and does not even matter if they are heretics or not in that context. Since the last antipope was around 1445 and up until then there had been 207 popes, that means that there was at least one anti-pope every 34 years. Considering that the average lifespan of a person today is around 80 years, one can say that up until 1445, it was completely possible that a man could see two antipopes during his lifetime.

The Church has survived 42 antipopes and many heretical or just plain bad popes. She has continued to grow and will continue to grow, even if there are periods of great persecution or even apostasies in her ranks. Even if she has not had a major heresy or controversy involving the pope in 500 years, it does not mean that she is suddenly going to collapse- it just means that she is long overdue for what has traditionally happened throughout Christian history. Like the common cold, she will recover and continue on as before.

If anything that one is seeing today, it is simply the fulfillment once again of the promise given in Sacred Scripture:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. -Matthew 16:18-19

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  • jimdiverman

    It is my understanding that NO cardinals signed the filial correction. Only some bishops, priests, and other laity. The cardinals who presented the dubia, only two are left, are supposed to be issuing a formal correction to the pope imminently.

    • Julie

      They were not asked to sign…and also to protect them.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    And….Only the Catholic Church continures to upholds the sanctity of marrriage, 100%, even the
    Orthodox, who try to pretend that they are the bastion of ‘right belief’, allow their subjects to receive Communion right up to, and including, their third marriage….And they do not condemn the use of artificial birth control. We all know that King Henry VIII started his Church because he wanted to divorce and remarry …..Only the Catholic Church, the Church that Christ built, still holds to this unpopolar teaching. So…Every one else is in formal heresy.There – I said it – throw the tomatoes at me. I noticed one day last week while clearing out a thousand plus old unread emails that our friend Chris, aka, OCA, threw more than tomatoes at me about a month ago quite a rant he went on, I haven’t had time to redress him – perhaps we will see what he says here.

    • Kamau41

      Hey Julie, here is another powerhouse book coming out you might want to add to your library.
      http://shop.catholic.com/the-real-story-of-catholic-history-answering-twenty-centuries-of-anti-catholic-myths.html

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Thanks for the heads up – I have materials from him about the crusades – he is very thorough.

    • Filip

      Wrong. We do not give communion to re-married couples, unless the divorce was due to sexual immorality. Because Jesus said. Whomsoever divorces his wife except it be for sexual immorality, commits adultery.

      • sojourner

        I’ve tried sending this twice and both times the message was almost instantly spammed. It could be the links. This time I won’t post the source as a hyperlink, spacing the letters, so that it isn’t flagged.

        That’s not what this Orthodox source says:

        “1. Canonical Grounds for Divorce
        Adultery- the violation of conjugal fidelity by either one of the spouses. In view of the exalted position in which marriage is held by the Church, adultery is equated to death, because it upsets the basis of the marital bond and distresses the purpose of marriage.
        Apostasy- the abandonment of the Christian faith by one of the spouses.
        Sponsorship of One’s Own Child- at baptism (spiritual relationship arising thereby between baptized child’s parents constitutes an impediment to marriage).
        Entry into the Monastic Life- of one of the spouses upon the consent of the other spouse.”

        Source: h t t p : / / s t g e o r g e g o c . o r g / p a s t o r s – c o r n e r / d i v o r c e / d i v o r c e – i n – c h u r c h – h i s t o r y

        Granted the Orthodox churches are de-centralised and independent and therefore have varying doctrines with regard to marriage. There is division and disunity among Orthodox churches and doctrines.

        You also ignored Julie’s statement regarding artificial birth control. Here is another quote from an Orthodox source:

        “3)There are those who teach that non-abortifacient contraception is acceptable if it is used with the blessing of one’s spiritual father, and if it is not used simply to avoid having children for purely selfish reasons. The statement on marriage and family from the 10th All-American Council of the Orthodox Church in America follows along these lines.”

        h t t p s : / / o r t h o d o x w i k i . o r g / C o n t r a c e p t i o n

        I have heard the argument, (from an atheist, not a Christian), that natural family planning and contraceptives are essentially the same thing and it’s absurd to claim one is immoral when they both have the same purpose.

        This is a silly argument. It’s an “the ends justifies the means” argument, and that’s not Catholic.

        For example, if you were to ask a friend to borrow their car and they willingly gave you the car keys there would be no ethical issues with that. If you were to steal the friends car without asking for it you’d be violating civil law (and liable to being charged and convicted by a court of law) and you’d be violating your friends trust. The result is the same: the person got to use the car. The means to this end couldn’t be further apart as well as the results/consequences of those means.
        Borrowing the car is ethical. Stealing the car is unethical and against the law.

        In the same way as working in harmony with God’s natural law of procreation in marriage isn’t a violation of His law. Using an artificial means to subvert the natural law is. In that case the couple has effectively made themselves (mammon) ‘god’, when Christ said we must choose between God or Mammon we cannot choose both.

        If God’s grace through the sacraments doesn’t bless the couple with the ability to exercise abstinence whether for health issue or to space their children, and the married couple can’t control themselves (as the Orthodox essentially teach), then the single person can’t control him or herself either and an argument can be made for fornication. The violation of one moral law as a matter of doctrine, allows for the violation of every moral law.

        The Catholic dogma is without contradiction. The Orthodox doctrine does contradict God’s law through permitting their members to violate it (for any reason).

        Also, natural family planning doesn’t deny the possibility of life. Children can still be conceived in a woman’s less fertile periods. The couple remains “open to life.” It’s just less likely. It’s an ethical method the Church dogmatically offers for married couples who sincerely need to space their children. And again, this in no way violates God’s natural law. The couple act in full harmony and union with God’s natural law without using artificial means to subvert His sacred law/s.

        God be with you.

      • Georgeorwell

        But they still have no issue with serial adultery.

        • Filip

          Well did Jesus? If I am married to a woman and she cheats on me aren’t I entitled to a divorce? Jesus says that I am. It’s quite clear when he says. Whomsoever divorces his wife except it be for sexual immorality (from either side it is implied) commits adultery. So… quite obviously if she cheats you are entitled to a divorce and if you cheat she is entitled to a divorce. It does not put a “limit” on it. It says its best to stay together and work through it, but that is the only way you can be entitled to a divorce and it doesn’t say once or twice.. it simply doesn’t specify how many times this can occur. If my wife cheated on me I would definitely be feeling entitled to a divorce ( an re-marrying with another woman).

          • Georgeorwell

            Not all divorces are due to adultery in the Orthodox church and they still allow three to “save souls”. Besides the Greek word is pornia which means more than adultery it means prostitution and inchastity. Regardless it is a very protestant position to claim to interpret Christ’s words based on personal belief.

          • Julie

            The ancient Christians after Mass would make 3 vows — not to lie or steal, kill, or commit adultery.

          • 3 vows?
            1 not to lie
            2 not to steal
            3 not to kill
            4 not to commit adultery
            I never really understood the new math.:)<—smiley face. See?

      • Julie LaBrecque

        There is NO exception granted for sexual immorality -you nave taken the road of the protestants. The ”exception clause” regarded only those unions of fornication. Look at the original Greek and you will discover that the word used is porneia – not the word Mocheia, which is the Greek work for adultery. Regardless, you CANNOT remarry!!!!!

      • ace

        Julie LaBrecque is right when she tells you that the Greek word used (in Mt 19) is porneia. OK, in general, yes this Greek word means “illicit sexual intercourse”. Under this category illicit could include: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals, sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman, etc. It could also mean metaphorically the worship of idols. But, I think Jesus’ meaning here is actually “sexual intercourse with close relatives” as per Leviticus 19, in other words, marriage which is unlawful.. Why? Let’s look at some other passages:

        Mt 15:19 KJV For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries [moicheiai], fornications [porneia], thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Whatever translation you want to use, there is a need for 2 words. Mark 7:21 also uses 2 different words as does Gal 5:19 (speaking of the manifest works of the flesh).

        1 Cor 5:1 “It is reported commonly that there is fornication [porneia] among you, and such fornication [porneia] as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.”

        Now, let us go back and look at Mt 19. After Jesus says that whoever divorces his wife except for porneia commits adultery, the disciples are astonished and say “If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.”. Why would the disciples be “astonished” and say what they do, since at the time, as in this day, many believed that adultery was a good or valid reason for divorce?

        In the time of Jesus, there were 2 opposing schools of Jewish thought, known as the House of Hillel and House of Shammai. “The House of Shammai held that a man may only divorce his wife for a serious transgression, but the House of Hillel allowed divorce for even trivial offenses, such as burning a meal.” [Wiki]. The disciples are amazed because the rule of Jesus is even stricter than the rule of the house of Shammai!

        There is no exception for divorce in Mark 10:2-12 and in Luke 16:18 And then in the early church, we see that as long as a spouse is alive, one is not free to remarry (1 Cor 7:39, Rom 7:2-3).

        Also, look at Heb 13:4 KJV “Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers [pornous – unlawful sexual intercourse or prostitution] and adulterers [moichousi], God will judge. [Again, we see 2 words.]

        Of course, Malachi 2:16 also tells us that God hates divorce.

    • Doc

      I have to say that I have extreme respect for the Catholic church for holding fast to the sanctity of marriage. I am continually disgusted with the cavalier attitude people have toward the institution of marriage. Divorce is evil although I understand that a person should not stay in an abusive or adulterous marriage.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        Thank you for the compliment, the church is only doing its job by not changing its teachings to suit man’s ways.

    • Georgeorwell

      This reminds me of the Seventh Day Adventist who claim the Church is a whore and the beast because it is a Sabbath breaker or it violates the 4th commandment. Yet the SDA so called church has no issue with serial divorce and remarriage, violating the 7th and 10th commandment. They are also are one of the largest providers of abortion on demand in the united states breaking the 6th commandment. They also have no issue concealing their identity and religion when spewing their dogma and will even lie about their affiliation claiming only to be “bible christians”. They also intentionally lie about and mislead others about what the Church teaches breaking the 9th commandment. They consider Ellen G White as a prophet and their “interpretation” of scripture comes from her–her opinions even trump the apostles and the word of Christ himself making her an idol violating the 1 and 2nd commandments.

      But hey they are the true church.

      • Julie

        They are cults and closed minded. The SDA’s are the most difficult…some enter RCIA, and then leave.

    • How sad for you. There have been reports about this pope being in error for some time and there are always those who jump to his defense. Now that a writer on this site lays out the bad news, that there really is a problem, how do you react? You deflect this bad news by bad mouthing and belittling the one holy catholic and apostolic church of the east. More ancient that Rome. The church which has maintained apostolic teaching and has not changed. There was a reason I finally chose the eastern church and not Rome. Rome continues to morph!
      I suggest you are speaking in ignorance, whether willful or not. We shall all stand before the same judge.

      • Georgeorwell

        You actually think following the filioque will damn a person? Or by using unleavened bread, or kneeling to pray, or declaring that Mary was born without sin? You mean like those heresy’s? The Church has not changed its dogma and has been in existence for 2000 years. If you are an Eastern church(we don’t know which one) yours is no earlier except maybe by less than 30 years and proves nothing. The point you seem to miss is the so called Orthodox church has changed its teachings on divorce and remarriage which is contrary to the world of God. Yours has also made a habit of choosing nationalism and king over christian unity. I wont even get into the semantic arguments used by your church to prove difference where it does not exist. It does not evangelize. It denies the primacy of Peter yet it calls the Pope the paradoxical name of “first among equals”. Yet each patriarch acts just like a pope even placing under anathema other Orthodox churches. The Russian church claims there is no central authority yet it also believes it is the third Rome and the True Church that all others must follow. How laughably hypocritical. The Orthodox could not even carry out the great synod because there is no unity. Let those without sin cast the first stone.

        • Julie

          Is Craig now Orthodox? I thought he was Protestant…came across to me as anti papal.

          • Georgeorwell

            I don’t know but some protestants love to attack the Church with Orthodoxy which they believe is with them.

          • Julie

            I read that they will start to see the benefit of the Apostolic churches….but those who still have the partisan protest…will join the Orthodox…which to me…shows they are not converted yet to the apostolic Church…He Ekklesia Katolika…my context….

          • Georgeorwell

            What amuses me is when someone claims to be “orthodox” but does not mention which one. It is as if they are all the same and it is assumed they are all schismatic when in fact most eastern churches are in union with Rome. They are like protestants in this tactic.

          • Julie

            Doubt he converted….we have to keep praying for them.

            I came from a diocese that had to be corrected…but its fruits are showing up again in the St. Gallen group.

            When the bishop said to John Paul II he had brought many converts into the Church…it was said back to him by the Vatican…what converts?

            I know a DRE who came out of there from west side of town…still hung up…a convert…and she still cannot understand why people were upset in the parish when the former pastor removed the tabernacle from the center of the church and moved it into a separate chapel. Cannot understand why the new pastor returned it and people are relieved…

            I say she is not fully Catholic yet.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Many different umbrellas to hide under, just pick your favorite color!

          • Russian orthodox church in America. You can stop being amused now. They are very serious about pure doctrine. And they are the most loving group I’ve ever had the privilege to be with.

          • Georgeorwell

            In their words three divorces and remarriages, saying allowing adultery saves souls:

            “The Order of the Second or Third Marriage is somewhat different than
            that celebrated as a first marriage and it bears a penitential
            character. Second or third marriages are performed by “economy”—that is, out of concern for the spiritual well being of the parties involved and
            as an exception to the rule, so to speak.”

            https://oca.org/questions/sacramentmarriage/divorce-and-remarriage1

            Pure doctrine indeed–they have given over to the age.

          • Julie

            They don’t really understand or as I sensed before, they are not truly converted to the apostolic faith, irregardless which tradition.

          • Filip

            Sounds more like you cannot hear sound doctrine. When you hear it you flee or start attacking other faiths or referencing oh how wrong they are..instead of actually responding to what is being posed to you.

          • Julie

            Sorry…I took 5 plus years through my archdiocese, known for its historical orthodoxy…and we constantly referenced our catechism which contains all our doctrines — based on Scripture and the Councils.

            I think you should take a step back and consider the source of your doctrines because they sound antagonistic towards the Body of Christ.

          • I’m a catechumen. I chose the eastern orthodox over Rome. Anti papal? Not as a bishop. As virtual king of the church and head over all bishops and king of the nations? NO thanks. Not biting that one.

          • Georgeorwell

            So you reject the social kingship of Christ and his Church is sovereign over all nations?

          • I’m not certain what you are asking me here. Christ is king and his kingdom is eternal. “I am with you always, to the end of the age”. We are working out our salvation with fear and trembling and watching and waiting in anticipation for the Lord’s return at which time he will judge all. We do not believe ‘the church militant’ means we are to form armies and go conquer the infidels. We battle not flesh and blood but spiritual forces. The Lord is not waiting until we have conquered the nations and make them Christians before he returns. Otherwise, we would not be assure that there will be a great apostasy and the coming of the man of lawlessness.

        • Did I say or did the orthodox church say anything of what you just said? That you will be damned? NO!
          From the beginning Rome understood Matt 16 as the rest of the church in the east. Then they changed their interpretation. Rome was given first honour because of the existence of the Roman empire. The position was that no bishops could make any big decisions without the Pope and the Pope could not make any without the consent of all the other bishops. Rome added the filioque unilaterally thereby changing the universal confession of faith. It also changes our understanding of the nature of God.
          I can tell you are Roman Catholic. Just like that church which is a source of constant division (Protestants came from there), you are likewise divisive.
          The reason there were 7 ecumenical councils was to discuss and deal with heresy. Apostolic and biblical doctrine is set. There is no evolution of doctrine.

          • Georgeorwell

            It was given the first honor because Peter was selected by Christ to lead his Church. That is what is in scripture, that is why he is considered the first among equals. He is mentioned more times in scripture than any other Apostle, and the early Church fathers understood the primacy of Peter. This was not an issue until 1054 and the basis of that was geopolitical infighting not dogma. The filioque is a silly diversion and is a meaningless difference. I can argue the Orthodox creed is Arian in that it seems to ignore the divinity of Christ who said “I will send you the Paraclete”. You will not be saved or lost based on this stupid pretext. You are just an anti-Catholic who has found a new way to express what Protestantism has taught you.

            It is amusing that you blame division on the Church that has united in faith for 1000 years with the Orthodox and is still united with most of them. The division did not begin until 1517 when heretic catholic priest invented a new religion giving power to the secular kings to steal the property from the Faithful giving rise to secular dictatorship with no check on his authority. You are still infected with Americanism.

          • You are wrong on virtually every point here. Orthodox have far better things to do than spend their days thinking of ways to hate on Roman Catholics. And the only bitterness I see here is coming from you and a few others. I’ve met a number of wonderful Roman Catholics here, both men and women who I would be honoured to be their friends.
            Give this some honest consideration if you can:
            http://orthochristian.com/105123.html

          • Georgeorwell

            Nice site, it reads like a chick tract and is about as factually accurate. No wonder you embrace this.

            As one Orthodox comment said: “you will not convert a well informed Catholic with an article so riddled with inaccuracies”.

          • You would speak thus regarding pravoslavie.ru, that it is like a comic book, protestant site? I should have expected no less. You have done nothing but accuse me and even Stefan of saying things we have not. You have been throwing bricks at the Lord’s church. And you have not said what these inaccuracies are! You are spinning fake news and then presenting it as coming from the ministry of truth, just like in 1984. I have heard enough. Sadly this is what I will remember about this forum for the most part.

          • Grandmere

            Craig, I am begging you not to leave. As an Anglican, I have been rejoicing with you as you are entering the Orthodox Church. I know what it is to be the “black sheep”, the “red headed stepchild”. I love my Orthodox and Catholic brothers and sisters. I don’t have a dog in this particular fight so it is best for me to sit this one out. Please just drop this divisive thread and come back another day. God bless you. I’ll be praying about it.

          • You are a red headed step child? Who would have known? 🙂
            I didn’t expect or want a fight. The subject was about the current Pope. I didn’t write the article but I’m being projected at as if I wrote it as a Pope hater. One of the first comments I saw was Julie reacting to this article. What was her reaction? Throw bricks at the eastern church. Then the ministry of truth guy from 1984 decided he would take a piece. Out of one side of his mouth he tells Stefan how much he loves the Orthodox, and out the other side, to me, he shows nothing but contempt for the orthodox. The other Julie chimes in saying she has the impression I’m a pope hater. An anti catholic. I don’t recall ever saying much of anything about the Popes. They are all just conjuring this stuff up. I’d ask the opinion of Pope Honorius on this matter, but he was excommunicated as a heretic.
            Thanks for your kindly consideration.

          • Grandmere

            Red headed step child is Southern speak for the odd man out. LOL

          • Kkdgrace

            I don’t know how this thread has spun out of control so rapidly, and with a somewhat vicious “tone” conveyed at times, IMO. For years this has been a site where the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican Catholic, and even some well-meaning and earnest Protestants could come for information and- at most times- healthy debates. Through information researched and presented in so many articles, along with many thoughtful and informative comments, many a person has been convicted to leave their Protestant background and convert to the Apostolic Christian Faith. Whether RC, Orthodox, or Anglican Catholic, all decisions have generally been applauded and individuals have consistently been congratulated, supported in their new walk, and welcomed wholeheartedly into the fold of the Apostolic Christian Faith.

            I am sure there are some who have had prior experience and encounters with some of the ugly “back and forth” I’ve heard can be prevalent on sites dealing with “debates” between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic. For the most part though, that animosity has been absent from this site and many have felt welcomed to the point where they consider their fellow regular commentators as “family”.

            I guess that is why this thread- seeming to ooze in many areas with such overt animosity- causes such deep, deep distress to my heart. It is not an easy decision for many to convert to Apostolic Christianity- not when you consider the many who have been raised with and have held to a lifetime of erroneous beliefs and viewpoints, all constantly “pounded” into the head and heart, both overtly and otherwise in most cases.

            This site has led to many questioning their formally held belief patterns, often leading to much research and a pursuit of knowledge and information heretofore left unconsidered. Converting is then a HUGE step and, in my opinion, shouldn’t be belittled so cavalierly. And in the past, at least, it wasn’t. This is something new and ugly for me to see, as so much is in direct contradiction to what one could normally expect when coming and commenting on this site over the course of many years.

            I don’t know the original “catalyst” for such toxic views re Orthodoxy on this particular site- I suspect many may be a result of some or many past but unresolved encounters. I do know that much of what I am reading is very much out of character when compared to many prior postings and the viewpoints and attitudes often conveyed in those postings.

            May our Lord Jesus Christ heal us from the divisions and “hurts” conveyed throughout much of this thread….and may we return to the loving and supportive “family” that has previously been such a strong characteristic of this site. Lord have mercy on us all, I pray.

          • Grandmere

            This why I called you the keeper of the ceiling fan! Remember back in the day when it would get hot in the kitchen of the falafel stand? Those were the days! When I first came here, Walid was a non-denominational Christian. It was his Catholic wife who challenged him to read the Bible and explain how it had been corrupted. I remember, when ISIS was raging, he said he felt more of a Copt. In God’s providence and His timing, Walid was led to join the Roman Catholic church. I was very happy for him, Maria and the family. Many protestants fell away, leaving mainly Catholic, Orthodox and a few Anglicans. We were more or less supportive in calling out fundamentalists and cultists. Now that they are fewer, we have taken to eating our own instead of falafels. I guess we will only fight together again when our backs are literally against the wall. That time will come, sooner or later. May God have mercy on us. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God.

          • Стефан Евгений

            I refuse to fight, people forget that are talking to a ponasmu Hunky.
            I saw Orthodox priests get beaten with clubs….. arguments can get hot.

          • Grandmere

            It’s interesting that I said “I don’t have a dog in this fight” and you said “I don’t have a dog in this hunt”. You have a more important battle right now and I have your back. When you made a comment about that demonic fashion show, Nan replied that the space wasn’t holy so not a big deal.( My interpretation) Did I tear into her? No. I took it like a Christian. I am not going there. That is forbidden fruit for me.

          • Стефан Евгений

            I had to go to another site to reply to you. Ever sense tha adds popped up the page is unstable and almost impossible to type comments in the box.

            I get bashed by nutty off the wall Orthodox …I get bashed by crazy Protestant trolls and some real losers…even hard core Catholics. The internet posting sites like some Orthodox and Catholic bring out the worst in people and the worst kind of information what each teach.
            I never thought the Shoebat family would turn on each other.

            I never go for the churches that clam they are 100% true pure and right.
            That smacks of Prelest . We have enough of that in Orthodox sects.
            The Orthodox Church does not teach that it is exceptional of the others Just that it has the fullness of the Apostolic teaching.
            I much rather be in a church that has mercy on the ginful-sinful like me , than a Church that teaches God runs a torture chamber for sinners.
            I am so thankful of the Anglo Catholics for providing an island of peace and I was out of the church war ( yes we Orthodox had church wars) here in the usa
            The OCA and Rocor slung insults for years . Through Gods mercy the Russian Orthodox Church is united under one Patriarch. the purists left thank God. But some pop up like a troll .

            The way things are going ,we may be glowing radio active ash tomorrow. I’v watched the Russian News it is not good we may have a full on war by October
            here dear we all need a bit of this today

          • Grandmere

            Thank you. And here is one for you. It is one of my favorites at moments like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AmFu58Tk2Y

          • Kamau41

            Beautiful and refreshing…

          • Стефан Евгений

            Spasibo moya sestra! Thanks sister!!!!!!!

        • Julie LaBrecque

          “And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God ANDof the Lamb.”. Revelation 22:1 – “who proceeds from the Father and the son.” Providentially, God’s word perfectly aligns with the Filioque clause. Let them stew on that.

          • Grandmere

            John 20:22 He breathed on them and said “receive the Holy Spirit”.

          • MattB

            As does the unfolding of the New Covenant. Christ was born and died on the Cross to redeem man and make him a worthy temple for the Holy Ghost to indwell. Then He rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. Soon thereafter the Father AND the Son sent the Holy Ghost to indwell within the faithful from Pentecost onwards. The Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Holy Trinity of the One True God, proceeds from the Father AND the Son.

            The Catholic Church didn’t pervert this dogma. It merely added depth to our understanding of it. We continue to affirm the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. This has NOT changed. Adding that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is an insightful maturation of an already established and unchanging dogma.

          • Georgeorwell

            Their explanation of why the filioque is Arian is the biggest piece of rambling, pseudo theological garbage I have ever read. It makes Francis’s wondering writings sound succinct.

        • Filip

          http://www.teologie.net/2011/11/16/divort-recasatorire-cununie/
          Ok, i looked this up on my orthodox page, you are right, unless a spouse dies, person should not remarry. I am part of the Eastern Romanian Orthodox Church and apparently it is not condoned for anyone to be remarried unless it is their first time or their spouse has died. Other marriages the Church deems as sinful. We still do not accept pope s infalability or purgatory or all the other non biblical nonsense the Catholic church preaches as truth.

          • Georgeorwell

            Do you not believe in a period of purification before a soul may enter heaven? Seems I read from a Russian O sight they believe this. They also have a private revelation from a mystic who died and came back that said the souls have a period of purification before heaven. If this is your church’s belief, you believe in purgatory you just don’t call it that. This is why I keep referring to semantics in my comments. As for alleged “non biblical nonsense” you sound like a protestant who does not know Church history or scripture. But hey your bishop says so so it is. Mine say different and by your vector you have no right to tell my Bishops what to think or teach and your Bishop’s opinion is nothing but that, opinion, it carries no infallible weight since you reject that as well–or do you.

          • Filip

            Okay. I did not agree with you because your bishop is infallible nor did i agree with you on the divorce topic because my bishop says so. First of all i decided to agree on it because the Biblical evidence supports it and because my church also practices this. Eastern Romanian Orthodox is not 100% as Eastern Russian Orthodox. As far as purgatory, simply saying your bishop is infallible is pure nonsense and heresy at its peak. Give me Bible evidence as you did for divorce in order to prove that a purgatory exists, that the pope has the ability to pardon sin, that we are meant to pray to the saints not pray to God so that they pray for us, that the catholic church is the only means of salvation for Christians, that souls undergo a “purification process” that we should pray directly to Mary as a deity and not indirectly as we do asking the Holy Mother to pray for us. Back up the heretic Catholic claims with Bible verses. If you can back those up, I am a Catholic today just as my wife was born and raised. Until then, I am Eastern Orthodox.

          • Georgeorwell

            “nor did i agree with you on the divorce topic because my bishop says so.
            First of all i decided to agree on it because the Biblical evidence
            supports it…”

            Oh I see you decide what to believe (protestant), I hope your private beliefs do not make you an atheist one day.

            That said, your questions are filled with false premises like “pray directly to Mary as a deity”. Your questions prove you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches or you are just bad willed (I choose the latter). I will also not read the bible for you, you can do it yourself nor do I care what you believe. Really you sound like a protestant to me with those ignorant questions, and if this is how the Catholic Church is presented to you by your fallible(because you do not believe in infallibility so they can be wrong) Bishop then he is ignorant as well. This series of questions illustrates why Catholics do not take the orthodox seriously.

          • Filip

            You re just dodging my questions and calling me a protestant… I think that settles all things for all to see including God Himself. Just to reassure you. I am not a protestant, and secondly I am Eastern Orthodox , I was baptised in the Eastern Orthodox church since birth and I am still an Orthodox Today. My wife is catholic, she was raised that way, and we go to both churches. However God does not say believe in the Church, God says to believe in Him, put our salvation in Him and approach the Throne Of God with a firm approach.

          • Georgeorwell

            You attend a heretic church! You commune with a harlot instead of focusing on the breast of your youth that brought you joy? That makes you a heretic and outside of your faith–or has the unchanging, constantly changing, not so pure so called “orthodox” changed that doctrine as well? Never mind I know the answer.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        How sad that you’ve been deceived- I’ve done my homework, so have Walid and Ted –
        I would like for you to put your money where your mouth is and tell WALID and TED that they chose the wrong Church I await with baited breath .

        • I’ve heard Walid say maybe after he is finished with the Roman Catholic church he will move over to the orthodox! I’ve not been deceived. Read the small book, written by a former Roman Catholic called Two Paths-Papal monarchy-Collegial Tradition. Refute that and then we will talk.
          By the way, my priest is extremely well taught in church history and apostolic doctrine.

          • Julie LaBrecque

            In your dreams – why don’t you listen to what HolynWrit has to say about?
            Why not listen to the words of Jesus Christ in John 21, putting Peter in charge over ALL the Sheep – that includes the other Apostles – why not listen to Isaiah 22? It says it all – the Royal Steward, an INDIVIDUAL, was given the Keys to the Kingdom – he was in charge of ALL. If you choose to disregard Scripture, then here is an Orthodox theologian, Alexander Schmemann: “We do not need to go here into all details of this ecclesiology. The important point here is for us to see that in the light of this doctrine (of the universal Church ) the need for and the reality of a universal head, I.e., the Bishop of Rome, can no longer be termed an exaggeration. It becomes not only acceptable but also necessary. If the Church is a universal organism, she must have at her head a universal bishop as the focus of her unity and the organ of supreme power. The idea, popular in Orthodox apologetics, that the Church can have no visible head, because Christ is her invisible head, is THEOLOGICAL NONSENSE. If applied CONSISTENTLY, it should also eliminate the necessity for the visible head of each local church, i.e., the bishop……….Then the one, supreme, and universal power as well as it’s bearer becomes a self-evident necessity, because this unique visible organism must have a unique visible head. Thus, the efforts of Roman Catholic theologians to justify Roman primacy not by mere historical contingencies but by divine institution appear as logical. Within a universal ecclesiology, primacy is of necessity, POWER and, by the same necessity, a divinely instituted power; we have all this in a consistent form in the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Church.”

          • You are stretching what is said in John 21. Peter was the most vocal, visible denier of the Lord so he questioned his motives 3 times. Feed my sheep. Where do you get superiority even over the other apostles from that? Right after this he told Peter how he would die and then twice told him “follow me” and “you follow me”. Peter asked about John, what about him? Basically he was told, mind your own business. What I do with John is my business. You follow me. Peter certainly wasn’t head at the first council in Jerusalem. James was.
            What is the source of that Alexander Schmemann quote?

          • I don’t recall that. I think I will die Catholic:)

          • MattB

            Wise choice of words Mr. Walid Shoebat 🙂

            I do recall you writing something along those lines in an article in the past.

            Nice to see you now affirm that you plan to be a Catholic for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, until death do you part.

            Although it won’t really do you part if you are faithful until the end…)

            Once a Catholic has been graced with “the discernment of spirits”, a charism from the Holy Spirit, there is no turning back. This is an absolutely essential gift in this day and age where deception abounds everywhere, both within and without of Catholic circles.

            This gift blesses us with the the discernment to differentiate between an actual truth and a likeness to truth, the sun and the moon, in theological terms.

            It’s easy to be a Catholic when a saint is sitting in th Chair of St. Peter, Catholics believe in the dogmas of the Faith, and we are living in a largely Christianised culture. It’s times like these that truly test the faith and hearts of men, that separate the wheat from the weeds.

            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05028b.htm

            God be with you, sir.

          • that’s fine. I remember. Be in peace. No issue.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        “And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God AND of the Lamb.” Revelation 22:1. Perfectly matches the Filioque clause “who proceeds from the Father AND the Son.” Why don’t you see that your leaders (or are their any since they teach this is no head of the Church save Jesus Christ) choose to choke on gnats while swallowing camels?

        • The eastern orthodox are the one holy catholic and APOSTOLIC church. Hence, the leadership and teachings, traditions, practices were passed from the apostles to the Bishops who also passed them down.
          I’m still waiting to hear what your source is for that lengthy quote from Alexander Schemenn. There is no way he would support Papal superiority. I was speaking with Father Andrew today. He met the man. Fr. Andrew’s father was taught by him at St. Vladimir’s Seminary. You likely took that totally out of context, and if you did it deliberately, that is called deceit. You see, Father Alexander, as part of the way he would teach, is he would build up the opposing case much as what you presented trying to prove he believed in Papal superiority. After he did that, he would destroy what he just built up. Where did you get that quote?

          • MattB

            To openly suggest without cause that Julie could be deliberately trying to deceive you and others is a heavy charge. You could’ve instead suggested she is simply mistaken.

            Julie has noted on here many times, enough for you to have noticed, that she is hard pressed for time and isn’t always able to keep up with peoples comment ‘demands.’

            Here is a source that supports Julie’s comment (according to the Russian Orthodox article linked below): Alexander Schmemann. ‘The Idea of Primacy in Orthodox Ecclesiology.’ In: The Primacy of Peter: Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church. Edited by John Meyendorff. Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press. 150-151.

            This is the actual article this source was acquired from (after a simple google search on the matter):

            https://mospat.ru/en/2014/11/09/news111091/

      • Kelly Ann

        Rome is newer? I beg to differ as St Paul n St Peter established the church in Rome, it was the emperor St Constantine a few centuries later who decided to live in Asia Minor as he preferred it over Rome, not becasue of dogma. He wanted the town which morphed into the great city of Constantinople to be named New Rome, but it was eventually called after him. Even the early eastern church Fathers noted that in their letter to the pope in Rome following the second eastern council, which non of the Western bishops attended. you should read it. Very interesting.

        • Hi Kelly Ann,
          You can beg to differ if you like. That’s fine. Did the church of Rome appear before the church in Jerusalem and Antioch? I hope you are well.

          • MattB

            Hi Craig,

            You can beg to differ if you like. Do you appear externally different on the outside today than you did as a baby?

            Christ universally established the Church on the rock of Peter. Many in the Russian Orthodox community believe their Patriarch is the chief today, because they have the greater numbers. The question is who did Christ appoint as chief and who is His successor?

            Constantinople is now Istanbul. If that doesn’t make the message clear, nothing will.

            I listened to this homily yesterday and your rant about Peter being a flawed man and an unworthy universal bishop came to mind (in so many words):

            Hope you are well.

          • You continue to exaggerate. Now you say I’m ranting? The other day as a proof of my anti catholic crusade you brought up that I said to Julie something about the situation being much more serious than what she was offering. Did I call the girl vile names? Did I cuss her out for being Roman Catholic? You sound like a millenial snow flake looking for a safe space.
            What you say here is plain false. From the beginning it was universally believed the rock upon which Christ would build his church was in fact what Peter confessed: You are Christ the Son of the living God. So the church is build on the rock of Christ and our confession of Him. Even Rome at the start held this view. All the apostles received authority along with Peter.
            Eph:2: 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
            This doesn’t say anything about Peter or any other individual save for Christ. And now you have a social justice warrior/marxist Pope leading your church into deeper apostasy. He is clearly walking lock step with the global elite, to prepare the world for their demonic one world order.

          • MattB

            All one need do is click on the actual link and read the comment for themselves. You went on an anti-Catholic tirade in that reply to Julie.

            You’re continuing to live in denial of reality.

          • I’m leaving, but your comments are so ridiculous I feel a need to speak once more. How old are you? What is your age? Your continual characterizations of me are strange. You don’t sound like a mature adult. You sound like someone who has been infected with the indoctrination of modern education. Make it simple. How old are you?

          • MattB

            Who is the one that keeps getting ‘offended’ and acting ‘childish’ when confronted with the truth?

            Why does your church teach as a matter of doctrine, a person can live in a state of mortal sin and find salvation through Christ?

            Why does your church doctrinally teach divorce and remarriage, up to 3 times, is permitted, when Christ said it is not?

            Why does your church doctrinally teach, using contraceptives (a violation of Natural Law) is permitted?

            You boldly and proudly proclaim truth while standing upon lies.

            “Catholics use contraceptives!” Is not an argument.

            Stealing is illegal in America yet people still steal. That doesn’t make the law wrong, it simply makes the people who break the law wrong.

            The Catholic Church alone upholds the fullness of Truth on matters of dogma.

            You are denial of this. In fact, you are so in denial of truth, it offends you 😀

            This says a lot more about you than it says about me.

            I’ve got no interest in playing your childish games. My interest from start to finish has been confronting you with the truth.

            “You have been served.” You can no longer claim “ignorance” as an excuse.

          • Actually Matt, I’m not offended at all. Nor am I sitting in the seat of judgement as you are. The Lord is judge. As I said, I have reasons, after close scrutiny, to choose the churches of the east. The absolute last thing I want, and what I’ve worked against is being ignorant. I’m 63. I don’t play childish games. Truth is all I’ve sought. I don’t think we will have long to wait to find out who is a pharisee and who loves the Lord. Much yet to understand. I don’t need this. It is far to much of a distraction.

          • MattB

            Following your logic, that it’s Pharisaical to affirm violating Natural Law is a mortal sin, we can literally justify any sin as being permitted.

            This is the whole problem with your stance and position. The only argument you can find to work your way out of it is to “guilt” me into denying the truth of God’s law. A law is a law, Craig.

            By condemning a Divine/Natural Law you are condemning the giver of the Law, Christ Himself.

            When Christ condemned the pharisees it wasn’t regarding the moral law. He didn’t condemn them for affirming adultery is wrong. It wasn’t the law he took issue with, it was the motives and intentions of the pharisees. He showed the adulterer mercy but was clear “sin no more.”

            It wasn’t the moral law he attacked the pharisees on. It was how they used the moral law and tradition in order to justify their pride and hypocrisy. For example, they were so obsessed with the “no working on the Sabbath” day law, being a day of worship, they would condemn anyone who helped another for anything as evil.

            For example, when Christ healed the sick on the Sabbath, the Pharisees would attack him for performing “a work.” It’s this perversion of Truth and the Law that Christ was attacking, not the Law itself.

            The Pharisees were missing the whole purpose of this teaching and law, and Christ rightly took them to task for it.

          • Kelly Ann

            Within St Paul’s n St Peters lifetime, I presume so as it takes time to travel from place to place, by horse or on foot, but the fact remains still documented in historical records.
            Hope you are well also. We also have it on account in the gospels that pagan romans were converting in Jerusalem as well.
            Rome was converting even before both apostles stepped within the capital city, les you forget that Jerusalem and Anitoch was part of the Roman Empire at that time as well.

    • Стефан Евгений

      I find this comment a sad one Julie. It shows even with all my good will toward Catholics we are deeply divided I would nor expect you to comprehend Akrivia or Iconomia we come from a different mind set, we even have a different gospel Anslem of Canterbury and Augustine’s errors took root in the west sadly for us.
      http://orthochristian.com/101834.html
      http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel/

      I was diagnosed with cancer today and was hopping to see the Shobat family here to lift my sprites. I see the Evil one dividing us yet again , Only the Creed and the Eucharist is set in stone every thing else is open to discussion.
      Stefan Evgenii Kuznetsov.
      Julie dearest, I will always lite a candle for you.

      • Georgeorwell

        See there is an example calling Augustine a heretic.

        That said I am sorry to hear of your diagnosis and I will add you to my Rosary and pray for your recovery. How should I refer to you in my prayers?

        • Стефан Евгений

          Did I say he was a heretic? no! he is blessed in Orthodoxy. I have prayed for you a very long time to the Mother of God. The evil one enjoys how we snap at each other George . Let’s put an end to it shall we ? My christian name is Stefan

          • Georgeorwell

            I agree and I am sorry if I include you in the list of the bad willed. I always considered the Orthodox brothers and was shocked by the way they consider my religion which dogmatically teaches all seven of of the Orthodox sacraments are valid along with your priesthood. This is what Catholics are taught.

            I am recovering from an unknown disease and understand your suffering. I will pray for you now Stefan.

      • Grandmere

        Oh no! Not you dear brother. I want to come to see you and pray with you in your corner. Ask OCA for my e-mail address. You took me under your wing when I first came here and have always treated me with tender kindness and respect. I will be in daily prayer for you.

        • Стефан Евгений

          Well dearest. I shed many tears last night.
          Here is mine [email protected]

          • Grandmere

            I will be in touch. Count on it. XO

      • “I was diagnosed with cancer today and was hopping to see the Shobat family here to lift my sprites.”

        I shall remember you in prayers, Stefan, and take courage!

        Yours in Christ, and an Anglican Catholic,

        Trevor

        • Стефан Евгений

          Why is it i can depend on Anglo Catholics? I worked in their Churches for over 25 years and grew to love them.
          Brat! it is a comfort you don’t have a dog in this hunt.

          • Brat, I love both dearly and it pains me greatly to see more mud slinging.

      • Kamau41

        Oh no. You have always been a bold and very courageous fighter and true warrior for us on this vessel. Our prayers are already going up for you for healing, my good brother.

        Please keep us updated!

        • Стефан Евгений

          Thank you brat! I must say I’m taken aback by some of the comments.I never expected the Shoebat crew to do the bashing.
          The evil one is seeking to divide us.The way the world is now we my not be here tomorrow, we can be glowing radioactive ash.

          • Kamau41

            We will be staying in touch. In times like these, as the world continues to grow much darker, this is what we need to hear.
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GaDeqSotwoc

          • Grandmere

            Thank you for this, dear brother. You and your family live in my heart. I pray you and your precious family were blessed by the gathering you recently attended.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        You have an entire cadre of friends here that will pray for your healing – including me rather anyone likes it or not. I am not going to silence Truth just to ensure friendship – personally it would be advantageous to me to leave The Church an head your way , You see, I am a divorced and remarried person – so I cannot receive the Eucharist – if I became Orthodox, presto, I could receive – but know that I would be jeopardizing my soul to do so – the Bible is quite clear about marriage – Jesus responded to the Pharisees that Moses allowed divorce only because they had hard hearts – and Jesus absolutely said that if you divorce AND then REMARRY you commit adultery. Please understand that adulterers cannot receive communion, St Paul says that you must receive it worthily less you eat and drink judgment on yourself, and the bishops of the Orthodox churches are subjecting their parishioners to damnation by allowing it – that is blood on their hands that they will have to give an account for. I stay with The teaching of Jesus and St Paul and The Church.
        If this stance causes hard feelings, it causes hard feelings and we will have to deal with that. Holy Writ does warn us that in the end , it will be brother against brother, sister against sister, etc. So here we are. In spite of your disappointment in me, I still regard you in the highest. Truth must prevail.

        • Grandmere

          Hi, Louise. It’s Thelma. I remember when we went to the EWTN homecoming. At the Eucharist we went forward with our arms crossed. The Anglican and the Catholic. Weren’t we quite the pair!

          • Julie LaBrecque

            Yes – crossed for different reasons, but we received spiritually didn’t we! And beautiful Jonette in her veil!!! I wanted to call today to tell about the fabulous beautification, overflowing crowd of 20,000, over 5,000 turned away and sent to Chesapeake center for live feed – and others went to restaurant in downtown and their bar areas changed the channel to EWTN so they could watch it on TV!!! One of my friends from OKC (attends St James the Apostle) called me Sunday and informed me that the Bishop of Guatemala con-celebrated the Mass at his Parish!!! So now we have a native son to intercede for us Okies!!!!
            I now know why Satan was spending so much energy in OKC – remember the black Mass they did and then on the following Christmas Eve desecrated a statue of Mary? I was constantly perplexed as to ‘why Oklahoma?’ – less than 4% Catholic – this is what Satan had in vain, hoped to prevent – oh how glorious his failure!!!!!! Mother Mary again crushed his infernal head !!! Another one of her sons, crowned in eternity, glory upon glory!

          • ace

            May Blessed Stanley Rother intercede for Guatemala. Their regular mail has been suspended for a long time now; only way to mail something there from the U.S., even a letter, is Global Express Guaranteed (GBX) which starts at $62.25 for 1 pound, non-document; $47.50 for document services up to .5 lb. They are also under a major corruption scandal (again). Furthermore, in the last couple of weeks, besides the protests in the streets, a New Jersey woman was shot twice in the head there while visiting family on vacation with her husband and she continues to recover at a hospital. She was riding in a car with her brother when attackers ran them off the road and opened fire for an unknown reason. May God have Mercy!

          • Grandmere

            Ace, Guatemala is on the hit list for a sizeable earthquake. Fuego volcano has been relieving incoming pressure from both Mexico and the West Pacific. Dutchsinse has it on his seven day forecast. Mexico is also on warning. Bali has evacuated tens of thousands of people as Mt. Agung is about to blow. The world is being shaken as never before. And what are we doing here? Squabbling. Thanks for the info. So many people are focused on the wrong things.

          • ace

            Thanks for the heads up. I wasn’t familiar with Dutchsinse. Interesting site.

          • Grandmere

            You would not believe how accurate he is. I have been at the forecast when one of his forecast sites hit with the exact location and magnitude he warned. This has happened multiple times.

          • ace

            Just Wow! First I went to his site, then to his YouTube. He certainly is above my level of complete understanding, but his uncanny ideas are amazing! (I like how he ties the earthquakes in with the volcanoes, the fracking, the dead zones, and the weather.) Having watched a while to get the sense of it, I’m now interested mostly in the predictions without all the explanation. Which of his sites do you go to BTW? And, is their a shortcut to the predictions, and, if not, what is his schedule for posting updates?

          • Grandmere

            He does a nightly forecast at 10:30 PM Central and a weekly forecast on Saturday. I just go to Youtube every morning. When he gets technical, which is necessary because he has so many new people coming in, I just skip forward and look at the globe until he gets to the place I’m looking for. He does occasionally post an update during the day if something noteworthy happens. I would suggest you stick with the explanations a little while longer. It can get boring for those of us who have been there for a long time, but if you are new, you will learn a lot over a week or so. I have children who live in WA right on the Cascadia fault zone. It is petrifying for me so I am always watching.

          • Kamau41

            Indeed, Grand. Thanks for warning the people. Dutch has certainly been nailing it.

          • Grandmere

            Every day I am checking on you and my kids. XO

        • Стефан Евгений

          Julie.I’m afraid you would not be allowed in the church much less be allowed access to the holy mysteries.Divorced persons are placed in severe penance for many years People in penance are not allowed in the body of the church and must remain on the porch.
          Just because the church allows something does not mean it is granted willy-nilly. Each case is individual and is reviewed by a bishop.
          The internet is the worst place for this kind of info… many get it wrong.

          St Paul used iconomia in verse 15 of 1 Cor 11-15
          “But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace.”

      • Julie LaBrecque

        And… St Peregrine is the patron saint of cancer. May he intercede for your healing to the Lord Jesus Christ.

        • Стефан Евгений

          I’m have ing problem comment in the box
          Thank you dearest. for prayers

      • DeusLoVult

        Hello, brat Stefan. (apologies for my ability to slaughter even Anglicized Russian phrases) I have largely stopped commenting for that reason, but I couldn’t stay my hands when I read that you had cancer. My first exposure to Orthodoxy was from you, and though I chose to become Catholic, I will always have respect for my Orthodox brothers. I will pray for your healing until it is done. God bless you, Stefan.

        • Julie

          You are Catholic now?

          • DeusLoVult

            Did you not know, Julie? I was Baptized into the Faith on Holy Saturday this year. I did post it on Shoebat.

          • Julie

            How wonderful! I know you were suffering alot with your family’s position and can only imagine all that you had struggled to get where you are.

            I missed it…am doing alot right now….and all I can say is come to Jesus in the full deposit of faith.

            On the side, I also read that the Orthodox have seen the seat of Peter as primacy…but there were other conditions…

            We have various cultural traditions, the small ‘t’ traditions over the big Tradition handed to us by the apostles.

            Anyway I am so happy and you made a comment some where in some place and wasn’t sure where you were coming from.

            Look to Christ and don’t put too much into fleeting opinions of the ecclesiastics…we have to pray and do penance for them. The Lord Himself chastises His Ministers…and many times through proper channels…I hope our current situation will be straightened out…saw the same sentiments, etc in my former diocese and it took Rome some time to finally get it straightened out.

            God bless you, brother in Christ!

          • DeusLoVult

            It was all worth it to get here. That was the happiest moment of my life, and wholly ineffaceable. I started ushering at the Church only a few weeks afterwards. I love it so.

            God will not abandon His Church. Of that, I have unwavering faith.

            God bless you too, sister!

          • Julie

            I missed your post and sorry I did.

            I had prayed for you for several days when you were going through a lot of torment and I am sure you will be do great good some day…

            My girlfriend converted, got a flash light and would study the faith under her blankets at night…later her mother converted.

            It is amazing to read such…I think the USA has its own form of persecution and suppression for all things Catholic…and what people from other Christian households must endure to enter the fullness of Christ’s Church.

            God bless you!

        • Стефан Евгений

          Spasibo moy brat! Thanks my brother.

      • Julie

        Hi from the ‘other Julie’….so sorry to find out…will definitely keep you in prayer….we have the shrine of St. Peregrine across town…for cancer patients…

        Hopefully you will pull through it oK.

      • Kkdgrace

        You will be in my most fervent prayers, dearest Stefan. Please let me know if I can help you in any way. I have a nursing background and believe we are located not far from each other- I am “here” for you, should you need anything or just want to talk to/with someone. Without a doubt though, you will be in my prayers throughout each and every day. Much love dear brother and may God be with you.

        • Стефан Евгений

          And also with you dear.

      • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

        God bless you!

    • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

      Well, here I am.

      You might be surprised but I have little to say. Why? Because I’m no longer one in which the Papist Church is something that my life revolves around, in or out of it, what is going on within it or without it. I’m sufficiently pleased interiorly to pray for and ask blessing from Almighty God for all men, for I am a wretch but God is the Healer of Souls. And He knows best, and He is the Terrible Judge to which I will along with all others, have to render an account for what I have done and what I have failed to do. Of that last one, I am particularly guilty. What I have done least is to have loved, and one cannot see God who cannot love. I know that I rest within the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which is the Orthodox Faith, and I know that you and others think otherwise. I’m not going to worry overmuch about that anymore and won’t debate it, God knows best and the future will show in His Divine Providence. And upon all may the Lord have mercy.

      A loathsome sinner,

      OCA

      • Grandmere

        You have made the wise choice, dear brother. There is a line between honest debate and returning evil for evil. “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, because you love one another.” May God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit be with you now and always.

        • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

          Thank you Grandmere, and may God bless you abundantly.

        • MattB

          ‘Love’ does not affirm a man in his sin e.g. adultery. ‘Love’ does not deny the truth e.g. the divine law of marriage or the natural law of procreation. ‘Love’ does not claim to be penitent whilst ‘demanding’ or ‘expecting’ the Church to change an unchanging truth to suit one’s own personal liking.

          Matthew 5:48 (DRA)

          48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

          Does that mean any of us lowly slows are claiming ‘perfection?’

          Absolutely not…

          It simply means we remain humble before Christ, Truth Himself, and genuinely penitent where we fall short in full awareness of the gravity of our shortcomings, praying, hoping, striving to always etch closer to Christ’s perfection through His grace and mercy.

      • Julie LaBrecque

        What happened to your emphatic declaration that you were done with me?
        You, a somewhat regular poster of Shoebat.com, slander a regular poster of Shoebat.com with the most vile slander ever slung from one regular of Shoebat to another – then turn to another poster on the same thread and state “I am patient, and try to follow His will best as I see how.”

        As the world turns…

        • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

          There’s no slander involved as far as i’m concerned, because you prove it by this pointless provocation, and you mentioned me in your post, desirous of a confrontation. I decided to let you and all know that I’m not going to feed your ego and renew a pointless and counterproductive debate with someone who doesn’t do so in good faith. So yes, that’s it, i’m done with you. My Papist, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian friends know I’m on their side, and you should realize that too.

          God bless.

          OCA

    • Kelly Ann

      Yes Julie, the church will always uphold the Sacrament of marriage,

      but the issue we are dealing with right now is AL which is attempting to suppress three sacraments all at once, and this current Pope is promoting it with his supposed theologians ( anticatholic clerics at the Vatican ). Already it’s being practiced in a number of areas around the world.

      The reality here is ; We have our own heretics within the church, who are just as bad if not worst because they put on the robes of being Roman Catholic as those outside of the church do not. the ones on the inside are a major concern, as they are working more boldly now to dismantle Our Church.

  • David G

    Thank you Andrew!

  • Elias

    This is something I wanted to see from all bishops and cardinals!
    Dividing the church is a sin and I don’t want that to happen i just want to see bishops and cardinals to make pope Francisco come to his senses

  • Frederikahere

    It’s about time.

  • Annais

    THIS IS WHAT THEY GET by playing politics or appeasing leftists around the world, PLUS Hispanics, in electing this left winger from a disgrace of a country, which was on the side of Hitler during Nazi Germany and hoped Germany would win against the allies…Argentina was anti Semitic then of course, and secretly many people there still are..as typical godless liberals..it’s a non religious country, Catholic in name only..in gral im speaking..i KNEW it was a TERRIBLE thing that this leftist liberal man was elected..

    • ace

      Are you a racist, or do you just make racist-style generalizations about certain ethnicities? BTW, who is Prof. Mario Caponnetto, University Professor, Mar de la Plata (Argentina)? He was one of those who signed the filial correction. The name sounds of Italian origin.

      BTW, Pope Francis’ father, Mario José Bergoglio, was an Italian immigrant and his mother, Regina Sívori was born in Buenos Aires to a family of northern Italian origin.

      OK, I just looked up Professor Caponnetto. He is a Catholic medical doctor and cardiologist born in Argentina (in 1939). He also holds a PhD in Philosophy from the University of Navarra (Spain) and the Austral University of Buenos Aires. He was director of the Thomist Training School (SITA). He belongs to the Consortium of Catholic Doctors, to the Corporation of Catholic Scientists, to the Argentine Society of Bioethics, to the Institute of Philosophical Studies of St. Thomas Aquinas, to the Center for Existential Psychology and to the International Society of St.Thomas Aquinas. He has taught at Argentine institutes and universities with professorships in: philosophical anthropology, biomedical ethics, professional ethics, and general bioethics.

  • Anthony Palo

    Pope Francis has gone overboard being too kind to the Protestants and their beliefs (correct me if I’m wrong but I think he has said things about other religions and atheism as well), and it is just right that he be rebuked, As for that Fr. Martin implying the Virgin Mary as lesbian he should die on the spot and be tormented in hell forever for that insult to the Mother of God.

  • Kamau41

    The late great Archbishop Fulton Sheen also said, “Judge the Catholic Church not by those who barely live by its spirit, but by the example of those who live closest to it.”
    St. Nilus, a disciple and very strong defender of St. John Chrysostom, had this to say about the future conditions of the Church/world, which we can absolutely see happening today right before our eyes:
    “After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognizable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents and elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right-hand way from the left.
    At that time, the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society. At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they received in Holy Baptism and equally of remorse.
    The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time. They will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. Then they will separate themselves out of the world in holy refuges in search of lightening their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints.
    And all this will result from the fact that the Antichrist wants to be Lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation with another from one end of the earth to the other. At that time men will also fly through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is deceit of the Antichrist. And, the impious one. He will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases. Then the All-good God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation. If that is possible…then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear and kill the perverter and his servants…”

    • Grandmere

      Just WOW!!!!!!

      • Kkdgrace

        Double WOW!

    • Amazing you mention St. Nilus and his prophecy. This past Sunday Father Andrew spoke to us about end times and what some of the saints had to say. Included was the above from St. Nilus. It appears we are well along in apostasy and the world is prepared for the appearance of the lawless one.

    • Georgeorwell

      This and other prophecies of the Church, which read like a history book, prove it is the true faith. St. Francis also has a very good prophecy about an pope destroyer. From 1226:

      Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the
      Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials
      and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

      The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a
      man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who,
      by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

      Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many
      others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error
      instead of opposing it.

      There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the
      people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were
      shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

      Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some,
      and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will
      receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in
      their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to
      support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

      Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love
      and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels
      and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil
      spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by
      destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord
      will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him.
      And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect,
      will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for
      themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will
      fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

      Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will
      trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in
      derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

      (Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

      • Julie

        I have read this…I worked among those of a branch of St. Francis who were caught up in liberation theology….I read a comment by someone, a white I assume, who said those priests came across as eating out of the hands of the Marxist guerillas…..I pray for them…and did at that time very much…and the Marxist government later confiscated their jeeps and other means of serving the poor as well.

    • Tom_mcewen

      During the black plague, it was thought there was a evil flux passed through the air and people fled to the country. I feel that way when I visit America. That there is a evil flux passing through the air of religion, too much of the wrong kind or a lack of any I recognize. C H Chesterton comes to mind.

      • Grandmere

        We are, indeed, one flea bitten ball of misery over here.

        • Kamau41

          You can sure say that again.

        • Tom_mcewen

          I after reading the conflict with the Orthodox, I am amazed, I accept their faith their Apostolic faith, but being we live on the 11th century border, I heard in my simple mind just butt hurt. The chair of Peter is necessary. I am confused by Francis but not by the office of the Bishop of Rome.

          • Grandmere

            I don’t know about the Czech Republic, but here in the US being butt hurt about any and everything is the current fashion. If you are at peace there must be something wrong with you. Jesus said he was leaving us HIS peace. He said for us not to be troubled but to believe in him and look forward to the time we leave all this behind to dwell with him forever. Most people over here are walking around, with their heads down, staring at a cell phone for a Tweet, as they fall off a curb or into a pothole. All I know is that one day they will have to look up because Christ will come again. And the majority will not be ready. This is such a sobering thought. As always, I send my prayers your way.

          • Tom_mcewen

            The guy reminded me of a Protestant convert to Orthodox who just continued his war with the Catholic Church by Orthodox charges. I know no Orthodox who talk like that, the monks I know read the Pope’s letters with interest, maybe in Brown paper packages with out hate. Humanea vitea, faith and reason, I was just given Augustinum Hippoonsrnsem by my scientist friend he is a Augustine Hungry eater who reqrets not living in a monastery 1000 years ago.
            From the tram I a girl sitting next to her boyfriend while she talked on the phone to someone else. That is stupid, be with the person you are with or suffer being alone. I see the world was to end or the demons were to be freed on 24-25 September, didn’t happen, a Perry Stone who plans to make Poland into a born again Christian nation.

      • Kamau41

        Indeed, Tom. I very much feel the same way. I’m really seeing it more and more each passing day.

    • Kevin Nicholson

      Amen.

  • Brenda

    Thanks for reminding me of Ann Barnhardt, Reading her blog now, Oh she’s good, smart, and makes so much sense in this backwards world, I’m surprised they haven’t found a way to bring her down and make her illegal.

  • Mart1963

    Pope Francis, himself a Jesuit, spent three hours with the Jesuit order on Oct. 24, delivering an address that spoke to decades of division among himself, the Vatican, and the Jesuit order.

    The Jesuit movement was founded by Ignatius de Loyola, a Spanish soldier turned priest, in August 1534.

    In 1491 San Ignacio De Loyola was born in the Basque province of Guipuzcoa, Spain. His parents were Marranos and at the time of his birth
    the family was very wealthy. As a young man he became a member of the
    Jewish Illuminati Order in Spain. As a cover for his crypto Jewish
    activities, he became very active as a Roman Catholic.

    On May 20, 1521 Ignatius (as he was now called) was wounded in a battle,
    and became a semi-cripple. Unable to succeed in the military and
    political arena, he started a quest for holiness and eventually ended up
    in Paris where he studied for the priesthood. In 1539 he had moved to
    Rome where he founded the ‘Jesuit Order,’ which was to become the most
    vile, bloody and persecuting order in the Roman Catholic Church.

    There are 3 arms of the illuminate, the political arm, the military arm and
    the religious arm. It seems the governing body of the Catholic church
    has been taken over by the Jesuits and they have their man in. If we
    follow the political arm we find that the Grand lodge is located in
    London. Above the commoner base pyramid is the small triangle which
    represents the Royl Grtr, the head of that and the Anglican church of
    England is the ruling monarch. The Royl gartr controls global commerce
    and governments through their secret squirrels located in all the seats
    of power especially in the west.,

    Here is the kicker, Daniel tells that the Lion(England) will have it’s Eagle(US) wings ripped off (war of Independents) and then later a Lion will stand up as a man and the mind of a man will be given to it. Daniel is told that the Beast he sees represent kingdoms/nations and the 4th Beast will consume the whole world which is the UN.

    Revelation tells us that that Beast will have a Lion’s mouth and that the number of the Beast will be the number of a man, this Lion Beast Man of Daniel who tells us that he is a Prince and later a king.

  • Doc

    I don’t understand point 4).

    • Kevin Nicholson

      “John Calvin used terms like “total depravity” to mean that, despite the ability of people to outwardly uphold the law, there remained an inward distortion which makes all human actions displeasing to God, whether or not they are outwardly good or bad. Even after regeneration, every human action is mixed with evil.”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

      • Doc

        I tend to agree that no person, no matter how surrendered to Christ, can ever become perfectly sinless in the flesh. This is one stumbling block I have with catholicism: if confession and absolution are so essential, what happens to the person who forgets to confess a certain sin? Or what happens to the Christian who dies in a car wreck on the way to confession? Is that person damned because of that “one time” they didn’t make it to confession? I’m more of the school that Jesus covered ALL our sins. YES, you need to grow closer to Him. YES, you need to grow less and less sinful (and I have known Christian alcoholics who are genuinely repentant and yet are in bondage).

        Thoughts?

        • Kevin Nicholson

          Doc, our Lord said that:

          “I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

          And Paul the apostle to us gentiles stated:

          ” It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” 1 Corinthians 4:3-5

          Thus, we must daily submit to our Father’s will to dwell in His presence:

          For “If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.”
          1 John 1:9

          Godspeed to His church….

  • The Mohicans

    Catholics aren’t Christians. They believe mother mary has power in Heaven, wrong. She is equal to all that perished before her and after. She still in the ground waiting Jesus Christ to return like everyone else, Period

    • Georgeorwell

      Neither are you a christian.

    • I always cringe when I hear such ignorant comments as you make here. The ever virgin Mary is part of creation; a human being. However, it is from her that our God, the second person of the Trinity, received his human nature. She is the mother of God! And people such as yourself try to belittle and degrade her? Dude, you are going to stand before her Son, the judge of all.

    • Julie LaBrecque

      So you chopped out another him or two from the Bible? You don’t know two cents about OUR book, quit stealing from it – what receiver caught your ear?

    • Julie LaBrecque

      Please tell us who you think is being prophesied of in Psalm 45:9 17, who is this glorious daughter dressed in gold, standing at the RIGHT, and of whom God says he would cause her name to be praised in all generations? Wow – sounds familiar, I think somewhere in the New Testament I recall some words being spoken about all generations calling someone blessed – oh, I remember, it was Elizabeth speaking about Mary !!! Remember that passage?? Surely your church has had several Bible studies and sermons about it!!! How cool that God put all this together for us!!! Especially how the Ark of the Old Covenant foreshadowed Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, and how the Temple of the Old Covenant foreshadowed Jesus, the Temple of the New Covenant!!! how awesome – then Psalm 132 verse 8 speaks of “Arise, O Lord, and come to your resting place, you AND your mighty ARK.” Then how cool is it that John tells us that he saw God’s Temple (Jesus’ body) in heaven opened, and in it was the Ark!!! Then John starts talking about seeing a woman!!! This has to be Mary, because scripture tells us that is was Mary, and only Mary, who gave birth to the man child who was to rule the earth with an iron rod!!!

    • Tom_mcewen

      You have any empirical evidence of what you stated ? I am glad to know I am not Christian. St Ignatius told us what is a Christian was for 15 centuries, then Luther explained, then Zwingli, explained, Knox explained, Calvin explained and there are 7,957 verses in the New Testament and 48,335 different Protestant denominations who all have their favorite verse to explain what a Christian is, what is yours? Czechia Catholic since 831AD.

      • Kamau41

        Heard from Trent Horn not too long ago on Catholic Answers Live that we really don’t know how many Protestant denominations there really are. He mentioned that every week, people are starting their own churches even out of their own home garages. Also, many young people these days, which has been going on for at least the past two decades, are buying degrees to become ‘pastors’ utilizing warehouse spaces, converting them into disco-tech or Starbucks coffee shop churches. It’s happening all of the time these days…

        • Tom_mcewen

          I use Biblicalcatholic.com the count Change each day 48363

          • Kamau41

            Got it. Thank you for the link. Another great resource that I have archived into my folder.

    • We, Anglicans along with Roman Catholic and Orthodox, believe she is alive and with Christ, and she was fully revealed to be the woman that was dressed with the sun and having the moon under her feet.

      Period.

  • Georgeorwell

    Its rambling SDA bs. Ignore him.

    • More like he bought into Herbert Armstrong’s warped teaching on the British-Israelism heresy. His “interpretation” was a dead giveaway.

      • Georgeorwell

        Interesting. I have not heard of that and will look it up.

        • Basically he argued that England and America are part of the lost tribes of Israel.

      • Stephen Dalton

        As A former member of Armstrong’s cult, I believe you’re probably right.

        • You would know better than I. David C. Pack is another major pusher of the same heresy. I almost got sucked into it after reading most of his eBook on America in prophecy until he plainly rejected the Islamic connection to the 9/11 attacks. That was when I started digging and found the British-Israelism heresy.

          The Puritans were also major believers of it. It undoubtedly also influenced the Mormons.

  • Julie

    Just read that the cardinals were not asked to sign to protect them.

  • Julie
  • Julie

    1Peter5.

    I am not against Novos Ordo…it brought about the conversion of millions of Africans to Catholicism.

  • Julie

    Keep your respect for the Petrine office and pray for him. He needs alot of prayers and apparently this problem was apparent in Argentina…

  • Julie

    No. And we have had anti popes who were not elected under canon law…and have gone without a pope for several years.

    The Church will go on….

  • Julie

    God bless you.

  • Julie

    The Church is the Interpreter of Sacred Scripture, not one man, Martin Luther who could not experience God …. anywhere. He had to make up his own form of Christianity without the apostles and tradition they set down.

    You follow Sola Scriptura…not in the Bible…in text..easily misinterpreted.

    The Holy Spirit guides the Church Who leads us to one heart and one mind.

    We have enough resources to know true from false and the Church will go on.

    You are looking at man too much and not the full deposit of faith IN Christ, which we have.

  • Julie

    Well spoken.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    That verse applies to YOU – Catholic Church has always bern here – yours came in the latter times. Look in mirror dude – it’s YOU that OUR scripture was warning about.

  • Georgeorwell

    Yes we should just read and follow our bibles then we too can be fractured into 40000 different versions of the Catholic Church, like our protestant friends who can’t agree on how to follow the bible.

  • Стефан Евгений

    Just what the heck happened to this site, it is now a Orthodox bashing site?
    How I am grieved and cut to the heart by this attitude.
    The church is a hospital not a judgement hall.
    I don’t expect Catholics to understand Akrivia and Ikonomia.
    Sure I get that some on the thread don’t really understand the Orthodox Church teaching
    But thin againI don’t comprehend Catholic teaching either the hard ness i se is not becoming
    http://orthochristian.com/101834.html

    • Georgeorwell

      It is because some Catholics are tired of their charity being reciprocated with Catholic bashing and Orthodox are some of the worst with their attacks calling us heretics. The fact heretic protestants use the Orthodox position to attack the Church should give you pause.

      Every where we go we are told we are not Christian, we worship Mary, idols, the Pope, we are Freemasons, they call My Blessed Mother a worthless dead woman ect., it never ends. Also, don’t assume you are some expert on Catholic doctrine either as most of you are no more versed in it than the average protestant that also knows nothing about the Church other than their propaganda. I have an idea why don’t you prove your good will and defend our Church from the heretics, I never see the Orthodox doing this in any forum yet Catholics often do.

      • I’ve not heard a single Orthodox Christian refer to Catholics as heretics, and that includes me, Craig the catechumen. You keep putting words into peoples mouths. It was not said Augustine was a heretic but that he had errors. Get the difference?

        • Georgeorwell

          I was called a heretic by a Greek Orthodox Priest to my face while I was supporting his Church at Greek Fest. I was shocked as I thought I was talking to a brother. This was the first time. The internet is filled with Ortho priest calling the Roman Church heretics and even apostates, there followers do it as well.

          • MattB

            I brought numerous Orthodox books on topics completely unrelated to the Catholic Church, and found unnecessary smears in almost every book I read calling the Catholic Church schismatic among other false accusations.

            A specific example that comes to mind is ‘Christ the Eternal Tao’ by Hieromonk Damascene. There were others.

            This book has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic and Orthodox relations. I brought it because I had a sincere interest in reading a comparative study of Christian doctrine and the Tao te Ching.

            I remember this example specifically because it was the last straw for me. I haven’t purchased an Orthodox book since, and I didn’t even bother reading that one after coming across its Catholic smear early on.

            Sin has a logical order. First the union of Church and State was severed. Second divorce was legally permitted. Third contraceptives were legally permitted. Then all hell broke loose when it comes to sexual ethics.

            In the same way as first came the Orthodox schism and then heresy and Protestantism abounded soon thereafter. That’s the unholy trinity schism-heresy-apostasy, the logical order of the falling away.

            Sin has a logical order. For as long as the Orthodox Schism exists, Protestantism will exist. The father of this crisis is schism, its son heresy, and its fruit apostasy.

            The Social Kingship of Christ has been rendered irrelevant among our nations at the present time due to this crisis. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

          • Georgeorwell

            I wonder if they have ever meditated on the fact that after the east west schism they were conquered by the Ottomans while the West was preserved from the same conquest. They were then persecuted under the Communists while the West was preserved. They are now as fractured as the protestants, as the failed Holy Great Counsel last year shows. It seems to me God has spoken on the matter. That said there will be a reunification and the world will be converted.

          • MattB

            The great irony is they insist upon a nationalised tribal church rather than a universal Church and call us ‘proud.’ The Church has always taught love of one’s country is a virtue. It also teaches love of God is a higher virtue.

            Matthew 22:36-40 (DRA)

            36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
            37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
            38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
            39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

            We hold the humble position. I’m not from the Vatican City or Italy. I don’t plan on visiting Italy anytime soon, if ever. I’m part of a universal Church and a universal Faith whose universal bishop happens to reside in Rome by the will of God.

            Our Church respects and honours the dignity and uniqueness of all cultures without compromising God’s law/will hence the various Rites e.g. Latin and Byzantine. We love our country, our culture and our people. We simply hold the universality of God’s Kingship and that of His Church higher than this love.

            The prerequisite to love of neighbour is love of God. Love of God is the foundation for love of neighbour. The Church Christ established on this earth is universal. It honours the common good and the individual good. Catholic Christendom was a kingdom of sovereign nations who shared a universal Faith/Church.

            No, it wasn’t a utopia. Mans nature is fallen. No society is perfect. We did uphold the fullness of God’s law as matters of dogma and civil law. We did achieve miraculous and holy feats as a universal Church and Faith by the grace of God and intercessions of Our Lady.

            The Catholic Church is the One True Church and the One True Faith, full stop, end of story.

          • Стефан Евгений

            Matt, first off Hieromonk Damascene does not speak for Orthodoxy. He is a Platina nut!
            The title of the book should have been a key he was a nutter
            Padmo and Rose were two fags who ran off to the woods to play monk they had no real monastic foundation they got their Orthodoxy from books

          • MattB

            Stefan, love you, Kallistos Ware and have the utmost respect Orthodox Christians like you. I ‘m deeply saddened by your diagnoses and will hold you and your loved ones in my prayers. You are a fine example of an Orthodox Christian. I love Russia. I love the Orthodox. I agree with Julie that we aren’t as far apart as we seem, and that our differences will be resolved at Christ’s appointed time and hour. It is destined.

            I will argue with Orthodox Christians who attack the Catholic Church and Faith at times, but my harshness is strictly reserved for those types, who as you’ve most likely observed correctly, are Protestant converts who never truly left their spirit of protest behind. I in no way mean to lump people like yourself in with these types. It’s so easy to forget, in the moment, that writing on a platform like this is a public, not a personal conversation, and I sincerely apologise if I have unnecessarily insulted you. Those who respect Catholics, and the Catholic Church, I can agree to disagree with and break bread as a brother or we can have respectful dialogue as brothers, depending upon their individual preference.

            Those who want to box as a sport, I don’t mind boxing with on occasion either 🙂

            I can’t remember the other examples now, this was some time ago. I do remember a Kallistos Ware book I read did not smear Catholics. I don’t understand what Platina nut means. I’m not fully schooled on the fringe Orthodox sects and mainstream Orthodox Christians. I don’t know exactly what doctrinal differences exist between the Russian and Greek Orthodox, and within those branches themselves.

            I know the Russian Orthodox and Catholics don’t entirely agree on the Catholic dogmas on Mariology for example (and a few others). I have a basic general knowledge on these matters, that is all. I only discuss the few things I am certain about on these issues.

            I’m by no means an expert. It’s the basics of Catholic doctrine I understand, and the misconceptions others have regarding them. For example, many believe based on a surface reading of the Catechism the Church now teaches homosexuals can remain homosexual. That’s not what it says at all. If read carefully the meaning is clear. It’s saying PENITENT homosexuals must first start with chastity through their penance (Confession, etc), and over time they will reach the fullness of Christian perfection, and that means they will by God’s grace, be cured of their disordered attraction.

            I know stories of real homosexuals who have repented and completely turned around their lives, as I’m sure you do. “With God all things are possible.” Penance is the essential ingredient. Nonetheless Catholic dogma has zero tolerance toward allowing same-sex acts and the Catechism states “under no circumstances can they be approved.”

            That’s one example of one of the countless doctrines people generally misunderstand today. There are endless misconceptions people have about Catholic doctrine, even Catholics themselves. We are at an especially fallen age and time in history. Confusion and disorder abounds.

            Stefan, I’m closing my conversation on this thread with this message. I feel like I’m hogging the message board here, having gotten into these long exchanges with Lane and others.

            I stumbled across a book on amazon written by a priest suffering from cancer recently. It’s called ‘Lessons From the School of Suffering: A Young Priest With Cancer Teaches Us How to Live’ by Rev. Jim Willig and Tammy Bundy. Maybe this priest offers firsthand insights and experiences that’ll help you with this cross.

            Much love to you and your family, brother.

            God Bless

          • MattB

            Stefan, thanks for explaining.

            With all due respect, Craig (and other Orthodox Christians) have been on a crusade against the Catholic Church since converting to Orthodox Christianity.

            You did say, and you could be right, that this is much more of a problem among Protestant converts to Orthodoxy. Based on Craig’s own testimony, he is getting this fervour from his local Russian Orthodox priest.

            I’m not aware of any Orthodox bashing going on in the Catholic Church’s RCIA program for new converts. According to Catholic teaching, every person who is baptised in the Holy Trinity, has received a valid Catholic baptism. When I read Catholic books, the focus is on the topic of that book. Unless the topic is schism or heresy, the Orthodox or Protestants aren’t mentioned.

            I am deeply saddened to read of your diagnosis and I did spend time in prayer last night to pray for you and your family. From what I’ve read of your comments here, you are a fine example of an Orthodox Christian.

            I’ve looked at links you’ve shared in the past showing the magnificent Churches being built by Orthodox Christians in Russia. I saw the article you shared about the disabled man who was creating masterful Orthodox icons and artwork with the help of modern technology. I ‘ve read that you have Orthodox and Catholic members in your family. I’ve read that you cherish your mothers rosary (if I’m remembering correctly). You are a fine example of a Christian.

            God bless you, your family and your motherland that is under grave threat at this time as you’ve noted. We’ll all be under grave threat if another major war breaks out. We have horrifyingly destructive technologies in this day and age.

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            God bless you, my brother in Christ, God grant you healing and peace of mind, soul, and body. And thank you for being there for me as well, aiding me along my journey in difficult times.

            A sinner who prays for you,

            Chris/OCA

          • Стефан Евгений

            As I pray for you brat! get my Email from Grandmere I would really like to hear from you.

          • Grandmere

            I sent it to him today. Let me know when would be a good time for a visit.

          • Стефан Евгений

            I will give you my phone #

          • Grandmere

            Oh yes, Please do.

          • OrthodoxChristianAmerican

            will do, God bless you!

  • Tom_mcewen

    A rerun of Pope Stephan VI and Pope John VIII who ordered Pope Stephan to be dug up after 9 months in the grave and be placed on trial. Thank God there is an expression of the need for explanation, Occam’s razor the truth should be clear and simple not a protestant shotgun blast to a barn door. Francis we just want to understand.

  • PARKS CURTIS

    Valid thank you for pointing out the pope is a puppet and a Traitor ,… now please also point out how Trump lies constantly and is in Violation of his OATH

  • Brick

    Just a thought about the comment section in this post…Brothers and sisters, if you may, please let Brick speak, though I am probably (and likely, I assume) considered as a heretic since my background is Protestant ad Evangelical. But, let us remember when Jesus Christ our Lord was about to go on the cross, at the garden of Gethsemane, he prayed for his disciples and those who follows afterward that “may they be one”. And, also, let us remember that Apostle Paul had corrected divisions over the Corinthian church over their difference as they competes themselves on whom they followed, or who baptized them. I know Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants have their differences, but despite our differences (or calling each other heretic), let us remember that our Lord Jesus Christ prayed for unity, and if we may, let us pray that eventually the churches who scattered around the world will eventually reunite into that One Holy Apostolic Catholic Orthodox Church… in the mean time, please let us correct each other with love, patience, and prayers..

  • Anthony Palo

    I’m not downplaying the Bible or anything, as a matter of fact it is the manual for our faith as Christians, but where did Jesus say “read the Bible”? Jesus left us a Church, (built on St. Peter Matthew 16:18) even the Bible says the Church is the pillar and the foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15). It is through this Church that we even have a Bible, not the other way around. the Bible is the book of the faith, not the faith of the book. The Bible is not the tell all and be all of our Faith, it is this Scriptures and traditions of the Church(2 Thessalonians 2:15)

  • MattB

    You’re no different than the atheist who pleads with the Christian that he must study the “God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins in order to be ‘converted.’

    We can prove the existence of God through reason alone, in the same way as we can conclude the necessity of a universal bishop through reason alone.

    Many distinguished Orthodox Christians have acknowledged the Popes position is universal (despite still denying aspects of the Catholic dogmas on this).

    You cannot deny the necessity of a universal bishop for a universal Faith if you are being intellectually honest.

    Minus a universal bishop what you’re left with are tribal factions who can’t achieve much of anything as a collective body. You pose as being united when it comes to challenging Catholics, in the same way as Protestants pose as being united when it comes to Catholics.

    While the Spanish and Portuguese and France, and other Catholic nations were successfully spreading the Faith throughout the known world you were languishing under Islam and then Communism.

    The crisis in the Catholic Church today, and the mass falling away from the top-down, proves the Catholic Church is the One True Church. When the dust finally settles all will be revealed. It’s the Catholic Church that will be left standing.

    Our dogmas remain intact, whether our leaders or laity are faithful to these dogmas, doesn’t change the existence of them. God has given us freewill. Catholics can abuse their freewill no matter their status or position in the Church or society at large.

    Marriage and divorce despite the claim made here isn’t the ‘sole’ reason for granting divorce in most Orthodox churches. This dogma has been perverted in your church in the same way as permitting artificial birth control for any reason is a perversion of dogma.

    The former violates the law of marriage the second violates the law of procreation. If you believe contraceptives are justified for health reasons then you are saying God’s grace through the Church and self-control are not enough. On this basis we could make a case for the rightful violation of every moral law, including fornication.

    Once again, the knowledge that contraceptives are a violation of the natural law can be known through reason alone. I don’t need to study your so called gurus to be convinced a self-evident truth is not a truth. No thanks.

  • MattB

    You’re grossly oversimplifying the various Rites of the Catholic Church.

    We are aligned insofar as we acknowledge the papacy and the dogmas of the Faith. Any other divisions that exist, exist outside of the dogmas we are bound to agree upon, and the various Orders of the One True Church exist in harmony of one another dogmatically.

    For example, the Byzantine Rite Catholic and the Novus Ordo Catholic do not permit the use of contraceptives dogmatically.

    The bishops, priests and laity who are choosing to violate this dogma will have to answer to God for that come judgement day when He decides their culpability. I doubt bishops and priests have any excuse. Poorly catechised laity on the other hand might be granted some mercy. That’s for God to judge.

    It’s our job, if we are faithful, to uphold and affirm the fullness of His truth in season and out of season.

  • Ceirwyn

    God is shaking everything that can be shaken, so that only what can’t be shaken will remain. He does this from time to time. Nothing to worry about, just tune into the Holy Spirit for instructions.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    As long as a spouse is alive, one is not free to remarry, 1 Cor 7:39 and Rom 7:2-3.

    • Filip

      In which case you divorced unlawfully and not because of Sexual immorality. Wrong yet again.

      • MattB

        Julie has answered your question. You chose to reject it because you twist the plain meaning of Christ’s words in Sacred Sciripture to conform them to suit your personal preference/bias:

        Matthew 19:4-8 (DRA)

        4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:
        5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
        6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.
        7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?
        8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

        Also, your statement that the Orthodox church solely allows divorce and remarriage for cases of adultery is misleading. Maybe your church does. That doesn’t mean all orthodox churches do.

        Example, quote (this took less than a minute to find via google):

        “1. Canonical Grounds for Divorce

        “Adultery- the violation of conjugal fidelity by either one of the spouses. In view of the exalted position in which marriage is held by the Church, adultery is equated to death, because it upsets the basis of the marital bond and distresses the purpose of marriage.
        Apostasy- the abandonment of the Christian faith by one of the spouses.
        Sponsorship of One’s Own Child- at baptism (spiritual relationship arising thereby between baptized child’s parents constitutes an impediment to marriage).
        Entry into the Monastic Life- of one of the spouses upon the consent of the other spouse.””

        http://stgeorgegoc.org/pastors-corner/divorce/divorce-in-church-history

        • Filip

          You still fail to see the point. The point was that she said that the Orthodox church allows for “adultery” and I said that it does not. Any Orthodox church that allows “adultery” is clearly far away from Christ and is fallen away. First of all. It is highly emphasized that God hates marriage and God does not agree that a couple may divorce for any other reason than… SEXUAL IMMORALITY (infidelity, or apostasy from the faith). In this case a couple may be permitted to divorce. This does not mean that now those two individuals are forever damned banned from ever being allowed to re-marry and live in full faith in Jesus and fidelity. You’re giving ultimatums which is another twisted teaching that some Catholic churches put out there.

          • MattB

            I’m giving ultimatums?

            “6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.”

            These are Christ’s words, not mine. Marriage isn’t ‘forever’ and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that marriage is forever as your message claims.

            The marriage bond exists (in a valid marriage) until death do the couple part. Once a spouse passes away the marriage bond has been fulfilled and the living spouse is free to remarry if he or she so chooses. This is a divine law. It’s not an ultimatum.

            What’s a simple example of an invalid marriage? Some cultures can force couples to marry against their will through arranged marriages irrespective of the will of the spouses. This isn’t a valid marriage according to Catholic dogma because the freewill of the individual/s was violated, and rightly so. God didn’t put a couple together in this instance. Man, in this case the parents, forced them together.

            We have purity of dogma. The Orthodox do not.

          • PaulF

            ‘God hates marriage’?
            Can you give us chapter and verse for this remarkable claim please?

  • Стефан Евгений

    Thank you for the info johny.,God less you!

  • Стефан Евгений

    Avi, My Mother’s name is Marie. On a side note My Jewish Great Grandmother converted to Russian Orthodoxy. I came across her conversion papers in my Mothers things when she passed away. I
    never knew I could be Jewish.
    Sorry to hear about your Mother I’ll put her in my little book.
    Thanks for the encouragement Avi.

  • Georgeorwell

    Our bishops disagree with your bishops on this matter and have for 2000 years and we have the quotes and history to prove it. Do you? We have more bishops and by the Orthodox standard one bishop may not impose his will on another. So since we have more bishops we are as right as your bishops by your standards. Who brakes the tie?

  • Georgeorwell

    Says who exactly? Your bishops? Remember one bishop does not have a right to tell another bishop what to do in his district. Many bishops disagree with your bishops. Therefore, you are spewing your bishops personal opinion which is neither dogma nor binding on our bishops.

  • This was something that was long coming. I have read on and off from Catholic News sites that there rumbling of a formal correction coming. Also there’s this uneasy feeling that there may be another schism coming from within Rome.

    I also find it a curious coincidence that this is going on the same time the worldwide Anglican communion are being ripped apart by heretical teachings and leadership of Abp. Welby.

    Traditional Catholics are fighting to preserve the Church teaching and traditional Anglicans are fighting a uphill battle against the worldly leanings of Anglicans like Welby.

    • Georgeorwell

      Never give up the fight Trevor. We will not run away like cowards to have our ears pricked by some sheep stealers, rather we shall stand with the Lord at his passion, and we will see the victory.

      • Not sure if you are aware, I’m an Anglican.

        • Georgeorwell

          Yep(you will be Catholic one day ; ) ) and I still say fight my friend. We can’t let Satan destroy our religions or let the hirelings scandalize the flock.

    • Grandmere

      As the globe is shaking daily with ever growing ferocity, bringing fear and destruction, so the Church is being shaken. But hold fast to the end. Hold onto your brother in the midst of the shaking. May God bless the tank!

      • Remember, “Once more I will shake the Heavens and the earth.”

        As Fr. Paul said, we must do all we can to help our brethren.

        God bless the tank indeed and bless the fraternity we have with one another.

  • ace

    OK, I disagree with some of what you are saying:

    Jesus did not just uphold Shammai’s stricter interpretation over Hillel’s. He actually went beyond that. I gave you a quick exegesis as to why – even Paul “circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee” and educated in Jerusalem under Gamaliel (who was the grandson of Hillel), upheld Jesus’ interpretation, as I also showed.

    So, tell the truth and shame the devil. What was the main language the New Testament was written in? Was it not Koine Greek which was widespread even among ordinary people? OK, I’ll concede that there is a hypothesis that the book of Matthew may have been originally written in Aramaic (do you speak or read this Semitic language?), yet most scholars have not found Matthew’s gospel to bear signs of a translation. Even so, what about the fact that the two other synoptic Gospels, Mark and Luke, do not show an exception? Jesus really was saying that only an unlawful marriage is no marriage at all, that’s it!

    Jesus was true God and true man, the second person of the Most Holy Trinity. He was the eternal Word made flesh and his Word is Eternal, so please, let’s not start with saying things like he wasn’t teaching for modern times. Even so, if you begin speaking about modern times and different cultures, why do you then speak about your worries of getting “stuck” in an arranged marriage with no possibility of an annulment? Please be consistent. Furthermore, an annulment is not just (for Catholics) a divorce, it is a church given decision that a true Christian marriage never existed, in other words, that a marriage was invalid.

    2 Thess 2:15 tells us to hold fast to the traditions we were taught whether orally or in writing. Who is the teacher of the oral traditions that we are to hold fast? It is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church built on Peter, upon whom Christ told us he would build his church and to whom he gave the keys and the authority of binding and loosing (compare the NT texts with Isaiah 22:20-22 where transfer of the second in command after the king is a keeper of the keys and is made from Shebna to Eliakim).

    Let’s see, you say that Jesus didn’t teach in Greek, I’ll concede that it’s an open question, and I’ll concede that at least some of the time he probably spoke in Aramaic and, of course, when he read from a scroll, he was speaking Hebrew. Still, he was obviously familiar with the Deuterocanonical books which have come down to us in Greek and which Protestants call the Apocrypha. In Matthew alone, there are allusion to passages from Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, and First and Second Maccabees. So, Jesus and the people he spoke with and to were obviously familiar with these books. Here is a list: https://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanonical-books-new-testament/ and you can use a Catholic translation in Bible Gateway to look the references up (DRA, RSVCE, NABRE).

    You say that we should not be unequally yoked and that there is no command to remain married to an unbeliever. The first of these is a biblical teaching which implies that Christians should marry Christians. On the second score, go read 1 Cor 7:13-16 again: ” And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.” OK, that seems to imply that one who is married to an unbeliever should remain with their spouse and it is only when the unbeliever leaves that it is OK. Also, in 1 Cor 7: 10-11 Paul says “And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.” So, a separation is OK if one is in a dangerous marriage, yet that does not give the person who leaves permission to remarry.

    OK, we don’t seem to be of the same mind about what the Scriptures say, still if you may have become curious about the Catholic position after reading this, here’s a link for further reading: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm (if you don’t wish to read it all, maybe start with paragraph 1644 which is on “The unity and indissolubility of marriage”, then skip around in this area to whatever else catches your interest).
    Jesus Christ told us that the way is narrow and few there are who find it. He also told us to pick up our cross daily and follow him. Why is it that so many in difficult (but not dangerous) marriages refuse to take up their cross or else put their crosses down? Did not Jesus also come to save that difficult spouse (and with God, is it impossible that the difficult spouse might repent and be converted with prayer and sacrifice)? Furthermore, why would the adult’s desires be more important than the needs of the children to whom the adults have obligations?

  • Anthony Palo

    How can Jesus say, as a command in your paraphrasing, to “Read the Bible!”, if it hadn’t been penned yet? duh.

  • Julie

    Baloney.

    I took a seminar that took 3 months that covered the historical roots of the papacy at our regional seminary.

    Over 25 protestant theologians affirm the Church’s foundation based on the primacy of Peter.

    You have to step back and look at why you hold the position you do.

    • MattB

      Add to that the distinguished Kallistos Ware from the Eastern Orthodox Church and his fellow delegates who held talks with the Vatican during Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy, and acknowledged the pope’s position in the Church is universal.

      They still interpret his universal role and status different than Catholic dogma. Nevertheless Ware and his fellow delegates have acknowledged the role of the pope/papacy is universal.

      Now it goes without saying not every Orthodox church or Christian agrees with this. This doesn’t change the reality that there is a strong and respected segment in the Orthodox community who are ‘maturing’ in their understanding of the need, importance and existence of a universal papacy for the Church:

      • Julie

        Thank you and yours is supporting actually of my understanding and observation.

        Two sources indicated to me that in the end it was mistranslation that caused the mutual excommunication by the pope and the head of orthodoxy in Constantinople. But that it is the lower rungs that are preventing the reunification.

        I used to be on Catholic Answers and the Orthodox site had to be shut down at times by the animosity. It was terrible, and as far as I was concerned, it was a tempest in the teapot, a friend shared with me he thought they were former protestants.

        Yes, the pope’s position is indeed universal but he is not a dictator. The pope’s infalllibility is quite limited and cannot be applied if he does not have the full backing of the bishops and the practice of faith by Catholics covering two thousand years.

      • Julie

        As I understand it the most difficult are the Orthodox Church of Georgia and the other, the Church of Bulgaria that are most anti Catholic, and that the Russian Orthodox want to be head of all Orthodox Churches, rather than the original Patriarch of Constantinople…a numbers game of the living….but for me the countless Christians martyrs of Asia Minor under the pagan Roman emperors, or those Orthodox who died under the destruction brought about by the Muslim Turks in their take over and destruction of the Christian faith to fulfill Mohammed’s dream (the next is Rome)….speak much more to me.

        The internet and persecutions are bringing the truth out….how much suffering must we go through to be one again??

        I was also going to add that in the earliest Church, the episcopal concilliors were tried out first but what worked out in the end was the Jewish model, the diocese run by one head.

        I am disturbed some times reading about our American bishops who vote Orthodox when they report directly to Rome, vs when they are on those councils and then vote more ‘diluted’…my term.

        • MattB

          “The internet and persecutions are bringing the truth out….how much suffering must we go through to be one again??”

          We’ve already been through two world wars within the last century alone and all the horrors this brought, and that wasn’t enough. God only knows.

          My greater and deeper concern to be honest is the state of the Catholic community today. When baptised Catholics, as a collective, no longer take the Church’s dogmas seriously, such as her teaching on contraceptives being intrinsically evil, what hope do we have of convincing non-Catholics that God’s natural law is sacred, and that a violation of part of the law is a violation of the whole of the law? This can be clearly seen by what’s happened in the culture since the legalisation of contraceptives.

          Yes, we can understand this perfectly through reason. The problem is those in denial of a truth are given ammunition to justify this denial by the example they see from the average baptised Catholic today. The current crisis with Pope Francis avoiding questions of dogma, and appearing to contradict established dogmas, isn’t helping matters any.

          We can trust God has a plan and any evil He allows is only allowed for a time to ultimately bring about a greater good. Christ has not and will not abandon His Church, even if too many of us as individuals have abandoned Him right now, whatever degree.

          I appreciate the insights you’ve shared and the dignity and eloquence you have shared them with Julie. Thank you for being an example for me to learn from.

          • Julie

            Yes, totally agree. I find the parish spiritual level more superficial….they are very nice people, really not cliquey and open minded and non judgmental, and work to relieve the suffering of others.

            And it is hard for most people to attend catechesis explaining the Mass and different points of doctrine that come up alot in public.

            A Pope Clement the IV?….certainly not the first ones, said that Christianity doesn’t do so well in affluence.

            I think it is the materialism and fast pace living that strangles our spiritual life, and so when Sunday’s come, the parishioners spend their first minutes before Mass catching up with their friends, and they don’t have Marian prayer groups, Adoration one hour a month. I was told I could get the key from the office to visit….but find myself in the same dilemna….

            God bless you as well and hang in there!

          • MattB

            “I think it is the materialism and fast pace living that strangles our spiritual life,”

            Agreed. There are other factors too. For example, try explaining sexual ethics to a Catholic who has been watching tv shows and movies (and music videos) his whole life that depict fornication as perfectly healthy and normal. Catholics who were never taught anything about natural law, gender, and things of that nature from the standpoint of Truth. A Catholic who was taught secular sexual practices e.g. “practice safe sex (use condoms)”, at a Catholic school year after year. You come across like an alien from out of space to them, a Catholic whose stuck in the stone age.

            That’s one of countless examples. We live in a thoroughly brainwashed culture and society. We’re so fallen that much of this same indoctrination now exists in our very own Catholic schools and institutions, and has for quite some time. Our dogmas remain intact. They’ve largely been relegated to the catacombs to collect dust at this point in time though in many Catholic districts, Churches and families.

            Secular humanism is a perversion of Catholicism. Our work on the humanitarian level is important but it’s not ‘everything.’ It’s largely powerless at affecting social change when we aren’t sharing the fullness of the Catholic Faith in so doing it. In short, it misses the mark.

            Thanks for your words of encouragement. They mean a lot. Don’t worry, leaving the One True Faith and the One True Church is not an option (to me).

          • Julie

            You are focused on the fullness of faith in Christ, the Good Shepherd.

            Yes prayer and penance and following the Gospel of Christ…to lay down our life, embrace the Cross and follow Him.

            Your note represents the disconnect from the consequences of free sex as promoted by ‘Playboy’ and the rest….abortion the sacrifice of countless lives such unions have cost.

            I was in the missions through the Church under the bishop. Not on my own, etc. The Africans love their children very much but the life expectancy is short, and I witnessed a number of children and infants who had died, along with mothers, fathers, young people…the climate evil in itself…so destructive.

            I shared my experience with women in my Catholic bible study that used authorized versions with the catechism supporting every doctrine. Yet they still thought the Africans be given contraceptives. They got very emotional. We were doing Jonette’s studies from EWTN on the chapter covering ‘Humanae Vitae’. It was very surprising. Finally a friend of mine who headed the Pro Life group told me a number of the older mothers had taken their daughters in for abortion. it was so shocking…had the most beautiful women, well groomed…and quite affluent. They were covering solid Bible studies but still would end up like this.

            I think what would help them, and many women both within the Church and out…is deep devotion to the Blessed Mother and a more contemplative, less active lifestyle.

            I am working alot now…we were caring for our grandson….a high maintenance but loving fun boy…and so we couldn’t keep up with house repairs…so this year is my Katrina…paying for the expenses and our family working on repairs.

            Have you watched ‘Wolf in Sheep Clothing’ by EWTN? It is tremendous. Brilliantly executed and am trying to hear from our pastoral assistant to show this to the parish….that ends up with Mary the paradigm for evangelization and God’s means for our times to defeat evil.

            Bless you! You are quite refreshing!

          • MattB

            Wheat and weeds, that’s the way it’ll be until the end of time.

            It’s so sad to me that brainwashed secularised Catholic (and other) westerners however well intentioned, (the road to hell is paved with good intentions), are undermining the conversion that’s happening throughout Africa by pushing these UN eugenics based agendas. I watched an edifying interview with an African woman (can’t spell her name from memory), that was brilliant. You can find this channel on Patrick Coffin’s youtube channel. It is recent.

            When we make “this life” and the “preservation of the body” (the dignity of the human person) EVERYTHING, as though human dignity is more important than God and holiness, we actually pervert the teaching of the Church and dehumanise the dignity of the human person altogether.

            Artificial birth control and abortion are NEVER viable solutions to alleviate human suffering. They cause much greater and far worse sufferings as a consequence, both to body and soul, both seen and unseen, both to the individual and society at large.

            The conversion in Africa is happening at breakneck speed, and it’s to be expected that teething pains are going to be a part of the maturation of the Faith over there.

            On the home front, yes, even the minority of Catholics who are properly catechised face an uphill battle, in that they still have this culture and its mechanisms of sin to contend with, constantly trying to lure and tempt them away from faithfulness and obedience, sanctifying grace and mercy, truth and charity, faith and hope.

            The truth is hidden in plain sight, and Satan does his best to counterfeit God’s truths and distract us from them in every possible way. Christ has built a Church that is seen and known throughout the entire world/universe. How many actually ‘see’ this Church though and her significance?

            When it comes to the Virgin Mary, Louis de Montfort, said it best in his book title, ‘The Secret of Mary.’ This is another open secret of the Catholic Church hidden in plain sight. We can look at the crusades, the spread of the Faith in Central and South America and elsewhere, wherever we look, even in our local Church, we see Our Lady, the holy Mother of God, leading the way for her Son’s Kingship, “to Jesus through Mary.” Hearing her words of instruction, “Do as He says.” No wiser words have ever been said.

            The Catholic Church stands upon faith and reason. Christ promised the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. We can take this on faith, and we have 2000 years worth of reasons to believe in His promise.

            Yes, I just so happen to have seen that documentary. I believe it was reading a comment of yours here at shoebat.com some time ago, that prompted me to watch it.

            It’s a quality film. That’s a whole other discussion in and of itself. The Church isn’t short of her Judas’ right now and many of them wear different hats, some Communism, others Freemasonry, Homosexuality, Americanism, etc. My personal choice words are modernists and modernism, because St Piux X defined modernism as the synthesis of all heresies, and that’s we see all too often today at the pastoral level in particular. The most common sin is the sin of omission.

            It’s certainly a challenging time to be a Catholic, but as Sacred Scripture says, the greater sin abounds the more grace abounds. Christ blesses us with the grace we need to persevere. It’s not about how we fall, whether as a body of believers or as individuals. It is about how we get back up and if we get back up through Confession etc. This takes humility, deep humility. This is not a virtue that comes naturally to me at all. Thank goodness for Christ’s supernatural graces and mercy, and PATIENCE. Through Him the impossible is made possible, the red sea is parted, and we are given a straight path to salvation.

            Glad all is well with you on the home and family front. Christ is keeping you busy with noble activities. Noble activity is good for the soul.

            Peace be with you.

  • Julie

    Yes….the rubrics of the Mass must be followed and if not, the Mass is invalid.

    You can search on line and see what makes a valid Mass. Do not worry, Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass, plus other rites are valid. It is the rubrics that matter. The priest must wear his alb, cannot deviate from particular prayers….and there are over 4 forms of saying the Mass in the new rite….unleaven bread, wine not grape juice, etc….the pulpit is not to be used politically or to put down other people…you can report a priest to the bishop for any deviation….but it best you know all the facts before you do….best to pray, have peace, and study your faith.

    You should visit http://www.RomanCatholicMan.com and they will guide and nurture you.

    Once you know more and…I would recommend the catechism as well…you will get a clear understanding of the full deposit of faith…pray the rosary, do penance…and claim joy every day!

    We need to love every person in whom we encounter and extend His love to them.

    • Grandmere

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the priest must also wear a stole. Only a priest is allowed to wear one. Love you.

      • Julie

        I put in alb…meant to say alb.

        There are some more…and there is a difference as to what is valid and what is illicit.

        St. Catherine of Siena attended Mass, and seeing how some priests celebrated the Mass made her want to protect herself in prayer from idolatry.

        Before the Reformation, the clergy is poorly educated. And there was also this sense of being the educated class, refined, dignified…where a wall was put up, higher and higher, between them and the laity at Mass…

        St. Francis of Assisi lived in those times and is one of the greatest saints ever.

  • Julie

    The Eastern Church developed differently than the West, that included imperialism and when such a concern was brought to Rome, Rome always trumped it.

    The patriarch of Constantinople is second in line to headship of the papacy, and wants to return to our sacred unity.

    You can read alot of history and come out in a different place.

    What is important is the word of Christ Himself, that He pray we be one…irregardless of our different traditions…those I state with a small ‘t’.

    Russia converted about the time of the Great Schism, and wanted to be the Rome of the east. That is one of its contentions now…thinking because it has more people, it deserves to be second in line to the pope. And there are various independent Russian dioceses beholden to no one.

    The problem with Eastern Orthodoxy is that is too easy to fall into nationalistic, and even clannish attitudes. Extreme nationalism destroyed most of Catholicism Great Britain and Germany.

  • Georgeorwell

    I will take your revisionist author Guettee (a criticism of his work can be found here http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/guettee.html) and give you what the Church Fathers had to say (I know this wont change your mind you will dismiss it, or claim its out of context, or not really from the people it claims to quote, but I give proof you give revision and speculation):

    http://www.catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_orthodox_church_fathers.php

  • Donna E Turner

    Thank God. The Revival has begun!

  • Georgeorwell

    I again give too much credit to the orthodox mind when I assume they understand this doctrine, you clearly do not but your church once did. The clue is the two headed eagle. Don’t worry about it, it is just another example that the doctrine is not so pure and unchanged but do as some and continue to wag a bony finger in the face of every Catholic you encounter and yell, “HERETIC”!

    • Julie

      On Catholic Answers at various times the talks with the Orthodox would have to be closed down…because of the belligerence, etc…and that is when one of my friend’s told me he doubt they were orthodox but new converts from anti Catholic denominations.

  • Georgeorwell

    You too my friend.

  • Anthony Palo

    sorry about the “duh” part.

    but the point is, what I was saying, in your paraphrasing of Jesus words to “Read the Bible” is illogical because by it’s essence the Bible should include the Old Testament and the New Testament (which wasn’t made yet, letters of Paul specifically wasn’t written yet), he could not have meant “Read the Bible.. the old and new testament, the letters and revelation, when it is compiled 350 years from now”

    now if it is St. Paul said and we paraphrase “Read the Bible” that would be a different matter and would’ve made sense bec. the component books were already there in real time.

    your statement just reinforces my claim that Jesus specifically and technically did not refer to the modern Bible. so your “Read the Bible” paraphrase is amiss.

    now If I were to paraphrase it according to context, He was saying “Know your Faith, everything about it, written and otherwise, and understand”, .

    I think what you’re trying to say that it’s the message, applied to modern times. but it still would not say read only the Bible,.hence the “or” part

    we are in agreement that we all should read the Bible, but regarding the Bible as the sole source of Truth, would disregard everything else he said to his Apostles, “Upon this Rock I shall build my Church” Matt. 16:18, it was not, upon this “bible”, I shall build my Church . Again, the Church is the pillar and the foundation of truth(1 Timothy 3:15), and the fact that the Bible came about from this Church just solidifies the verse.

  • MattB

    Yes, it does appear to me and many others that this current pope is actively working to undermine the unchanging dogmas of the Faith. As Andrew explains in this article, the Church is bigger than any one pope. Individual pope’s come and go. The papacy remains.

    The established dogmas of the Faith are intact and Francis cannot change that which is unchangeable. He has neither the power nor authority. Purity of dogma remains irrespective of the pastoral and clerical errors that are actually occurring or falsely perceived to be occurring, high or low,.

    An abuse of power doesn’t change the laws upon which that power is granted. If the US President murders a coworker and is caught, the laws of the land should still apply to him legally speaking. Whether they do or not doesn’t change the reality that they should as a matter of law.

  • MattB

    One cannot miss the long dated and obvious doctrinal errors and tribal divisions in the Orthodox church, and remain an Orthodox Christian if they are being intellectually honest. They would join the Byzantine or Coptic Rite Catholic Church.

    One cannot compare the historical accomplishments of the Orthodox church with those of the Catholic Church since the Great Schism, when taken as a whole, and not see the truth, if they are being intellectually honest.

    Christ didn’t leave us with Guettee’s work, ‘The Papacy.’ He left us with His universal Church, the Catholic Church:

    John 10:15-16 (DRA)

    15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.
    16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

    Come home. Christ is calling all His lost sheep to the one fold and one shepherd. He wills all Orthodox churches and Christians to end the schism and come home.

    God be with you.

  • MattB

    Any person who claims the Catholic Faith is required to adhere to the fullness of Catholic dogma. Those who do not are in heresy to whatever degree they don’t. And, yes, many claim the Catholic ‘title’ while denying the dogmas of the Faith in this fallen period of history.

    You obsess over the filioque, which the Catholic Church didn’t change (we still affirm the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father), it merely clarified (adding “and the Son”), and COMPLETELY IGNORE the obvious doctrinal errors of the Orthodox church such as permitting divorce and remarriage and the use of contraceptives. as well as the irreconcilable tribal divisions (not being able to hold a single Church counsel since the Schism),

    The true Church suffers the falling away, that’s the Catholic Church. The Orthodox have never had anything to fall away from because the moment they fell into Schism they were fractured from the body of Christ and soon thereafter fell into heresy (to a lesser degree than Protestants), the natural result of schism.

    The Filioque is to the Orthodox what Mariology is to Protestants, a misguided excuse to justify their rebellion from the (universal) Catholic Church.

    • Lane Cobble

      We see clearly here the abject and obvious denial of reality: you have the exact SAME nationalistic churches in your Eastern Rite churches.

      Another delusional denial of reality: You can officially and publicly profess to “accept the 7 Ecumenical Councils” which defined The Faith, but then say “but we knew better than the 3rd and 4th Councils, and had to ‘clarify’ the Creed by breaking the clear dictates of the Council.”

      It’s untenable, dishonest, disobedient. Not things God likes.

      So, your position demands you reject the Councils as well. You can’t have it both ways. And if you reject the Councils, you have not Apostolic Christianity.

      The 3rd and 4th Ecumencial Councils declared anathema to any who who change the Creed. Later bishops, popes, and laypeople disobeyed not only the Holy Spirit through the Councils, but also earlier ‘infallible’ popes who accepted the Councils, and some of who actually censured the Filioque.

      It’s ok, keep believing the untenable and illogical, contradictory propaganda of the Romanists and Ultramontanists.

      Read Guetteé’s “The Papacy.” It destroys all the pretensions of Rome as the sole source of Authority, usurping the rightful place of ALL the Apostolic Sees.

      • Julie

        Do you know the rest of over 20 rites within the Catholic Church? do you know what is meant by ‘rites’?

    • Kelly Ann

      Concerning your statement on western priest, and keeping with their cultures this is quite true as defined in the first council presided over by St Constantine himself, for all metropolitan churches including Syria and Egypt. If everyone read these early councils all of this debating would settle down.

  • MattB

    You can’t win the argument because your claims are built on straw. Therefore you digress to insults, slander, hyper-emotionalism and hypocrisy.

    God made man a rational creature with a rational mind. The Catholic Faith stands upon faith and reason, not faith and emotionalism. A man must be ruled by reason that is grounded in truth not emotion.

    Love and Truth are one and the same. God is love and truth. Love is higher than emotion. How else could we love our enemies as Christ has commanded? Have you ever felt ‘angry’ with a person in your life you ‘love’? Yes. Love and emotion are not the same thing.

    King David committed adultery and murdered the husband. He’s remembered as a saint.

    Peter rejected Christ thrice. He’s known as the first pope.

    Saul violently persecuted Christians before Christ converted Him into the great apostle Paul.

    The Sacred Scriptures are filled with accounts of men of God who were saints then sinners, or sinners then saints, including sinners who later repented (Samson, David, etc), and those who did not.

    The homosexual infiltration and activity in the Church is a disgrace, and needs to be dealt with. God has Providence. Justice finds every man sooner or later. This isn’t the first time Rome has been overrun by sodomites. Read:

    The Book of Gomorrah and St. Peter Damian’s Struggle Against Ecclesiastical Corruption available at amazon.

    God’s providence ultimately saw us through then and it will ultimately see us through now.

    The Orthodox church has not been without its scandals. They just aren’t given the attention or spotlight of the Catholic Church, because man instinctively knows (even as he consciously denies it to himself), who the true Church is.

    • Lane Cobble

      Disobedience to the Councils is disobedience to the Holy Spirit is disobedience is disobedience is disobedience to God.

      It really is that simple. Too simple for scholastics and ‘clarifiers’ of perfect doctrine already put forth by our Fathers. Oh, wait, Romanists in their pride wished to make the Nicene Creed “better” or “clearer,” aka they KNEW BETTER and still KNOW BETTER than the Councils or Fathers. Therefore, they REJECT the Councils and Fathers, thereby rejecting the Holy Spirit Himself. They say “we know better, just a LITTLE clarification.”

      Disobedience. Clearly. The 3rd and 4th Ecumencial Councils forbid changing the Creed, lest one be anathematized.

      Anathema. It’s that simple.

      Oh but wait, you know better. All those Church Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils that previous popes accepted, affirmed, you will reject them… and there goes the entire edifice of your own Roman Catholic Faith. Without the Fathers and Councils, you have nothing, like the Prots, Mormons, JWs.

      Somehow you think you can reject the clear proclamations of the Councils, which Rome accepts as well (officially), and then also say you ‘accept’ the Councils, while rejecting…. wait. Yep. Untenable.

  • MattB

    When Orthodox or Protestant Christians throw stones and point fingers at the Catholic Church, I will at times hold up a mirror for them to gaze into, and defend the infallible dogmas of the Catholic Faith. Many people misunderstand the dogmas or falsely assume something is a dogma that isn’t e.g. a pastoral opinion is not the same as a dogma.

    To respond to your comment, I’ve heard stories of Latin Rite Catholic priests who have married while in the priesthood, say a priest stationed away on a remote Pacific Island for example. It happens. It’s against the rules of the Latin Rite tradition. If the priests superior is faithful to his duties and position he would have this priest defrocked upon confirming it. If he isn’t, he will turn a blind eye for as long as he can.

    In an ideal world every law would be faithfully adhered too and every violation would be justly repaid. This isn’t an ideal world. We are all marked by Original Sin, and we all have freewill and can abuse it. Sometimes justice isn’t served until ‘after’ we die.

    America has laws against stealing yet America still has its thieves regardless. Some get caught. Others get away with it.

    Being a priest isn’t a guarantee of holiness. Not every priest chooses to pick up His cross and follow Christ. Not every priest lives in a state of sanctifying grace. Not every priest has embraced his vocation. Every priest does act in Persona Christi when fulfilling his sacramental duties.

    In the same way as there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, truck drivers, school teachers, janitors, etc and supervisors in these professions, there are good and bad priests and bishops too.

    The Church doesn’t claim any Catholic is immaculate. It claims the established dogmas of the Faith are infallible. To quote the great Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

    “Judge the Catholic Church not by those who barely live by its spirit, but by the example of those who live closest to it.”

    “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

    Sams_1, I’m now officially signing off from this particular thread altogether. Walid is incredibly generous with the freedom he gives us to message here, and I don’t wish to abuse his charity by dominating this thread. I’ve shared my piece as clearly and faithfully to Church dogma as best I can, however poor that is.

    God’s blessings to you and every shoebat.com reader and contributor.

  • Julie

    Were you born Orthodox?

    I put in a response to Matt. You are welcome to read it.

    When you accuse me of united to man, it is so far off from the reality of my faith, understanding, and practice…which is centered on Christ alone. You are judging by the surface of langauge here.

  • Julie

    I was reading up last night and on a forum opposing the papacy, one came out saying if only the Orthodox would do 1/100th the work for humanity as the universal Catholic Church, it would be much more effective.

    You are mixing up your anti Catholic indoctrination which doesn’t appear to me as Orthodox along with your lack of knowledge of the various rites of the Church, which we call the small ‘t’ tradition.

  • Julie

    You then obviously are ignoring the first thousand years before the Schism….

    Guettee was drawn to Gallicanism, where the French bishops in those times where they wanted to have increasing power, nationalistic, for both ecclesial and temporal jurisdictions, as well as into Jansenism which is a heresy and has a severe outlook on the tenants of faith.

    So good for him to join a national church that reflects the same desire for dominance…..aka considering those Russian Orthodox priests who colluded with the communists in the face of many Russian Orthodox murdered under communism.

    Guettee …? I would rather follow P Cyrian than him….

    It is said there are Orthodox who quickly are drawn into nationalism, but slow to draw deeper into Orthodoxy………………..

    You drawn to Guettee makes me think of those who decided to follow sole man Luther….who later became extremely nationalistic….

    And you don’t know that it was the Papal States…that gave us the De Medici and Borgia popes, those cultural conditions that led to the Reformation — which in turn was corrected by the Council of Trent.

    Guettee comes across as skewed, not in tune to the spirit of the Gospel, but rather strident and would not have the scholastic open mind for objective, non partisan truth as those 27 Protestant theologians.

    Wedded to Rome?????You are passing judgment.

  • Julie

    I find your response needing some kind of guidance….you may want to visit http://www.calledtocommunion.com, where Protestants who have divinity degrees come to discuss.

    There is one put out by a Mr. Ryan, August, 2009, ‘Catholics are Ecclesial Deists’….

    And may be do some more research on the history of the papacy from another angle.

    I pass on Guettee….to partisan for me.

  • Julie

    I am not afraid of Guettee’s writings and see them for what they are….devoid of the spirit of ‘He Ekklesia Katolika’.

  • Julie

    I will add here to suggest you attend some diocesan classes on the nature and mission of the Church.

    When we are in mortal sin, we are now outside the Church and are not in communion, and so must go to confession…

    Address Christ and do not look so much at the priests.

    Study your faith….beautiful teachings out there on the Mass…the Sacred Constitution of the Liturgy….did you know that Ordinary Sunday is the greatest feast in the Church, not Easter or Christmas….because on Ordinary Sunday, with your full participation, you encounter the fullness of the Resurrected Lord as did Mary Magdalene and the apostles and all those others He appeared to.

    Pray the Psalms…Lord you are my rock, my salvation…place your trust in the Lord alone!

    God bless!

  • Julie

    Went Catholic? From where??? Re reading your posts today, you make me think you came from an anti Catholic background….Bless you.

  • Julie

    Married Anglican priests who are no longer in schism retain their marriage. Orthodox men who are married can pursue the priesthood. However, an Orthodox seminarian who is not married must remain celibate upon ordination, and their bishops are not married.

    There is a truth spoken by Christ that there are those who do not marry and are made for the kingdom, a true calling from Christ to be His ministers, and they openly acknowledge they are not deserving of such a high calling.

    The Latin rite will always remain celibate. It is a discipline that was first proposed by the Spanish clergy in the late 300’s.

  • Julie

    Went Catholic from where? Your verbage sounds anti Catholic….from a indoctrinated particular Protestant perspective.

  • Julie

    Declaration of faith is of Lutheranism.

    Didn’t Peter a number of times make a declaration of faith…when he began to sink after walking on water…or when the Lord said we are to eat and drink of His Body and Blood and Peter responded, ‘Where should we go….You alone provide us eternal life…’

    St. Peter is referred to over 180 times in Scripture. He is primary apostle, upon Peter…the Rock…’I will build My Church’. St. John defer to him when they were entering the tomb, allowing Peter to enter first….and Paul went to Peter to discuss with him all he had learned to make sure what he knew was correct, and later affirmed Peter when Peter admitted Paul was correct in admonishing him for falling back before the Hebrew assembly regarding the freedom to eat most foods.

    St. Peter and Paul were both sent to Rome to found the church for the sake of the Church, not any attachment to imperialism or nationalism. Both were martyred there. Both are co-founders of the Church of Rome. When they had arrived those Nazarene Jews who fled the Diaspora assembled in private homes of the rich with presbyters beforehand. Yet all considered themselves as one. Their martyrdom was the sign of their as co-founders.

    Peter was given the keys to heaven….and in Isaiah 22:22, in his time, the Jews all knew what the key meant…the one who had proper authority, who even wore a key in the time of Isaiah.

    The beginning Church began with the conciliar model of administration, but in time the most practical was having one head.

    The apostles were all sent out as founders and all were martyred with the exception of St. John.

    By 100 AD, the books of Scripture, the liturgy as the form of worship, the episcopacy of the bishop as administrator, and the foundation of the Creed were in place. St. Ignatius on his way to martyrdom in 104 named the Church …’He Ekklesia Katolika’….

    Simply the Universal Church.

    And it is to the Pope who upholds our unity, who is shepherd, our universality. It is Christ present in the Seat of Peter. We look beyond the person and his imperfections.

    When the Pope speaks, the world listens. May be our present pope can be confusing.

    You may want to read a copy of the Catholic Register who provides us what the pope actually said, not the media or the misinformation or even disinformation that is out there…and I would add as well….all the anti pope talk that has been out there since Luther’s falling out with P Leo XII. The Orthodox didn’t want Luther’s new religion either.

  • Julie

    My diocese enjoys one of the most orthodox bishops in the country….and he would not allow any two bit talk given at the seminar where priests are formed.

    You don’t even sound Orthodox.

  • Julie

    What is yours? Every body has problems. We are human.

  • MattB

    You’re the one that bashes Catholics for applying faith and reason, and condemned logic and rationality etc, in your message. You’re not talking to an atheist here who rejects the existence of God or the Divine Mysteries of the Faith. You are communicating with a Catholic who actually values the dogmas of the Church and their infallibility.

    Dogma cannot contradict itself because truth cannot contradict itself. You can have your quasi-mysticism and pseudo-intellectualism, while I simply and plainly acknowledge God’s laws as they are instead of playing god.

    The use of artificial birth control is intrinsically evil because it violates the natural law. A violation of part of the law is the violation of the whole of the law, as we’ve seen in everything that’s subsequently happened in our society, and is happening since they were legalised. This isn’t difficult to understand. In fact, it’s about as basic as it gets.

    I’m closing our conversion with this message. The spirit of protest, the evil one, is strong in you. I will pray for you.

  • MattB

    You suggest Julie is deliberately deceiving you and others and then follow that by calling me batsh*t crazy. You’re a real class act.

    You have been attacking the papacy here. You have attacked Catholic history. You have shared anti-Catholic material.

    One need only to scan your profile, which you’ve chosen to leave public, to find examples.

    • You sir are making this up. I rarely post. How is that a crusade? Was Andrew’s article attacking the papacy? It looks to me that if I don’t fall down and lick your boots I am on a crusade. And you few speak out of both sides of your mouth.
      I’m learning wonderful things about God in the Orthodox church. Why would I be attracted to the venom of Rome? God is love. You aren’t. And I have better things to do than spend my time deflecting poison arrows. Goodbye. God have mercy.

      • MattB

        Okay, I’ll conclude our conversation, which you have initiated more than once, with the following example, quoted from you:

        “It is much more than a tempest in a teapot Julie. ”

        Source: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/walidshoebat/the_head_of_the_russian_orthodox_church_has_just_declared_that_the_russian_orthodox_church_and_the_r/#comment-3496192529

        The other regular Julie here, wrote a lovely and warm message of unity to you, and you responded with that venom and all that subsequently followed it.

        You have no leg to stand on. The spirit of protest remains strong in you. I’ll pray for you.

        Farewell.

        • Any of these conversations I’ve initiated only because a Roman catholic said a false statement or started to go on a crusade against the orthodox church. “It’s much more than a tempest in a tea pot Julie”. that is venom? Seriously? What are you? A Teenage millenial? There is no venom in that statement. If you want venom, just look at the Roman catholic comments about orthodoxy.
          The spirit of protest? Protestantism are the daughters of Rome. I’ve left both behind. I’m learning wonderful things about God. Why would I go back to what you offer?

          • MattB

            Yes, it is an attack. Julie offers an olive branch of peace and you instead choose to go on an anti-Catholic tirade.

            You recently insulted Julie L by implying she is a deceiver. Our other Julie offered you that olive branch and you threw it in her face. You call me batsh*t crazy for stating the truth that you are anti-Catholic, that’s why you have been challenged on your anti-Catholic positions/errors.

            Andrew didn’t condemn the papacy in this article. Andrew is a Catholic who defends the papacy. He fairly critiqued the current standing pope, not the importance and need for the Chair of Peter. He correctly stated that a pope isn’t a supreme “dictator” who is given unlimited and unchecked power to pervert Church dogma contrary to popular belief.

            You claim love while denying truth, when Christ said He is truth. It seems, from what you’ve shared here, your Russian Orthodox priest is merely teaching you different methods to deceive yourself and rationalise away God’s simple and plain truths, in Sacred Scripture and seen in natural law.

            If man justifies artificial birth control for any reason, he has made himself the god of his own morality regardless of what he claims with his lips.

            You claim a spirit of love and charity yet fail to see and respond to the charity of truth that is shared with you. The Church is universal. Truth is universal. Christ’s kingship is universal. Dogma cannot contradict itself because truth cannot contradict itself.

            You hold contradictory positions (at the present time).

  • Стефан Евгений

    And I for you and your Mother.

  • Anthony Palo

    now that made sense, that one you can paraphrase.

    now that doesn’t mean I said “do not read the bible”. as I said. we agree. that the reading of the Bible is most fundamental. Scriptures it is read. in public.

    but do not disregard the Church that Jesus left us with. Jesus left us with men to spread the Good News build his Church, and it was this Church that gave us the Bible as a means to it.

    Disregarding the Church is disregarding His Apostles because they are their successors. The Bible and the Church both are important and both have weight. that was what I was saying all along.

  • Anthony Palo

    Avram More. initial reaction was kinda harsh wasn’t it, it’s not as if I can do anything about it (perishing and stuff);) i gues that’s why we have calm minds like yours 🙂

  • Avram Moreh

    I would surmise that the vast majority of theologians and historians disagree with you.

    https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what-language-did-jesus-speak/

  • Kelly Ann

    Contrary to what many Protestants and even non-Christians think, the Pope cannot arbitrarily teach anything he wants in his formal capacity as pope.

    This applies to Catholics as well who are not well informed or misinformed concerning the Popes infallibility serving in the Petrine office.
    This certainly is a great learning opportunity for all.

  • Kelly Ann

    Here is the direct site set up by the authors themselves
    Notice the date which they wrote it is on the feast of Our Lady of Mt Carmel, I found this date to be quite fitting for the correction however it’s not a formal correction, so Francis isn’t obligated to respond to it, which he recieve in Aug 11th this year. And the authors not receiving a response post it publicly on Sept 24th.

    It has also been noted that this is the beginning of a long process, so expect more in the near future.

    http://www.correctiofilialis.org

  • Kelly Ann

    where’s your authority coming from and where does it say in the gospels that St Peter is to share the throne with all the bishops ? Can you point it out for me? If Our Lord wanted the Keys to be given equally to all the apostles then didn’t he bring the rest of them into this conversation with St Peter ? Why only St Peter and not the rest ?
    By the way do you know who took the seat of St Peter following his death? It was one bishop, only one, and after him only one bishop and so on to the present day. It’s alll recorded historically. The early eastern church never denied the pope, this is a new idea that came later with the great schism, the details which you can read.
    And by what authority did the church in Constantinople have to strip Syria and Egypt of their ranks to place itself second after Rome ?

  • Kelly Ann

    Here are you speaking about the Sensus fidelium or human feelings?

    • MattB

      Exactly… It is a grace, a gift from God. Its pre-requisite is true contrition of heart and surrendering one’s intellect to Christ (as He is without twisting and manipulating Scriptures e.g. Matthew 16:17-19).

      I honestly have no doubt whatsoever in the ACTUAL dogmas of the Catholic Church, none. Therefore, by the grace of God, the truths of the Faith are self-evident to me even in the midst of slanderous attacks and propaganda.

      We’ve seen how the “other side” lacks humility in their inability to acknowledge violating the Natural Law is forbidden. I’m accused of being too rational for stating this, and Saint Augustine for whatever, seems to get the blame 😀

      The two most frequent knocks I get from their end on this matter is Augustine, and being too logical and rational, as though logic and rationality, when standing upon faith and reason, is a bad thing.

      There is a lack of sincerity (humility) on the part of those who make these claims.

      • Kelly Ann

        well stated!

  • MattB

    Catrina,

    I’d honestly forgotten about our exchange. In other words, I wasn’t harboring any resentment towards you.

    Christ does say that He is truth. Therefore when a person attacks the truth they are in a very direct sense attacking Christ Himself. A zealous defense of the truth, particularly on matters of faith and morals, is a zealous defense of Our Lord and Saviour.

    He also said forgive others their sins if you wish to be forgiven yours. Bygones.

    Everything in the Scriptures must be read and understood in context, and the Church perfectly blesses us with this context and balance through her infallible dogmas, which are literally a work of the Holy Spirit who is The Soul of the Church.

    The Church is 100% divine and 100% human. The day you see the 100% divinity is the day you’ll never be distracted or deterred by the faults and failures of the 100% human element.

    As a Catholic, I don’t blame the Orthodox or the Protestants for the crisis in the Church. I blame sin. Whereas it seems it’s popular for the Orthodox to blame ‘Rome’ for the fall of Constantinople whereas the Protestants blame Rome for clericalism.

    Rome isn’t the problem. Sin is the problem. Rome isn’t the enemy. Sin is the enemy. Christ built His Church upon the rock of Peter, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

    Where we can’t reason through our differences we can agree to disagree and still love the other (not their error), God gave us freewill. What I cannot do is be silent on the areas we disagree on when being challenged on them. Christ told us to preach sound doctrine in season and out of season.

    Thanks for your message and kind words.

    Much love to you.

    God Bless

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Jesus was Teaching – this Samaritan woman was representative of the Samaritans, which had broken off from the Davidic Kingdom. It had set up its own monarchy and form of worship until Assyria invaded and sent most of its inhabitants into exile. The king of Assyria brought pagans into Samaria to settle there (1 Kings 17:24).
    Interestingly enough, 1 Kings 17:30-31 tells us there were five groups that settled there, each worshipping their own pagan gods: The Babylonians worshipped Marduk; the men of Cuth worshipped Nergal; the men of Avva worshipped Nibhaz and Tartak; the men of Sepharvaim worshipped their city gods; and King Hadad worshipped Anath.

    Even though the Israelites were joined in covenant to the one true God, they intermarried with these foreigners and adopted their worship and practices. This is why the Jews wouldn’t have anything in common with Samaritans — because their assimilation with these pagans had defiled them. Samaria, like the woman at the well, had five husbands and was estranged from her true husband.