Study Shows That Thirty Eight Percent Of American Evangelicals Support Assisted Suicide

By Theodore Shoebat

A new study shows that thirty eight percent of American Evangelicals support assisted suicide. Its no wonder that Colorado recently legalized assisted suicide. Eric Metaxes just wrote an article on this very dark reality:

If it’s right to oppose the killing of human beings at the beginning of life, why do so many evangelicals say it’s okay near the end of life?

Evangelical support for the pro-life cause is both well-known and extensive. The Pew Research Center says a full 75 percent are still willing to tell a pollster that “having an abortion is morally wrong.”

But there’s disturbing news when it comes to evangelicals and another pro-life issue: assisted suicide. According to Lifeway Research, 38 percent of those who profess to be evangelical — nearly four in ten — agree with the following statement: “When a person is facing a painful terminal disease, it is morally acceptable to ask for a physician’s aid in taking his or her own life.”

In other words, physician-assisted suicide is okay — at least in some circumstances. So how in the world is that “pro-life”?

Yes, a majority — 62 percent — of evangelicals oppose euthanasia. But as BreakPoint This Week co-host Ed Stetzer says, it’s not nearly good enough.

“A shockingly high number of evangelicals believe that it is now okay for people to take their own lives when they see fit,” Ed notes. “When we filter the biblical truth that God gives and God takes away, that God creates and God ends, this 38 percent is quite disturbing.”

Disturbing indeed. How did we get here? For one thing, Lifeway’s Scott McConnell says too many Christians are not thinking like Christians.

“Traditional Christian teaching says God holds the keys to life and death,” Scott says. “Those who go to church or hold more traditional beliefs are less likely to see assisted suicide as morally acceptable. Still, a surprising number do.”

It might be that the desire to avoid suffering at all costs — one of the cornerstones of today’s post-Christian worldview — trumps any and all biblical considerations.

No wonder that in November, Colorado voters gave the thumbs-up to Proposition 106, also known by its Orwellian title: “The End of Life Options Act.” Among many of its problems, Proposition 106 does not require psychiatric evaluation for patients requesting suicide—this despite the fact that many suicidal people are suffering from depression and could be helped!

What makes all this even more troubling is that so many evangelicals and other Christians have imbibed this secular outlook. It certainly is not Christian.

“Let me be clear,” Ed says: “No one wants to suffer. It is a result of our fallen world. All of creation, indeed, all of humanity, groans under the weight of sin and death …. Of course, we don’t run toward pain and suffering, willing it upon ourselves. But neither shall we flee from it as though it has no use.”

Ed then goes on to quote scriptures that show how God wills suffering in our lives to build character, endurance, and hope — and he reminds us that we can agree with the apostle Paul that “the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

This fallen world cannot provide what only heaven offers. Nor should it. Richard Baxter, the great eighteenth century Puritan pastor, reminds us that our sufferings and extremities can glorify the God who allows them in our lives in ways that few other things can.

“If our rest was here,” Baxter said, “most of God’s providences must be useless. Should God lose the glory of his church’s miraculous deliverances … that men may have their happiness here?”

As difficult as it is to suffer or to watch our loved ones suffer, playing God is always wrong, whether at the beginning of life — or at its end. There can be purpose in pain. And there is hope, for today and tomorrow.

As Paul reminds us in 2 Corinthians, Jesus “was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but … we will live with him by the power of God.”

 

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  • Lance

    I may shed this body like clipped hair or fingernails. Yet I shall live forever as God promises!.

    • Julie

      Name it …Claim it!

  • Julie

    There are some Catholics I assume that would support euthanasia. The Church strongly condemns it where I live.

    And…palliative care greatly provides comfort to the dying and witnessing it in my work, it further negates any need for euthanasia.

    Most who go for it are white men who don’t want to lose body control of their functions, and for those who care for others who are dying, it is all part of the job and is no burden to any.

    The other issue is that there are those clinically diagnosed with depression and it is immoral likewise to have them euthanized…irregardless of their particular beliefs.

    • Kevin Nicholson

      “Palliative care is provided by a team of physicians, nurses, physiotherapists, occupational therapists and other health professionals who work together with the primary care physician and referred specialists (or, for patients who don’t have those, hospital or hospice
      staff) to provide an extra layer of support. It is appropriate at any
      age and at any stage in a serious illness and can be provided as the
      main goal of care or along with curative treatment.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care

      • Julie

        Yes, a very fine profession.

        There are dissenters every where. If people could experience the care of hospice, then may be people would not resort to euthanasia.

        In the Palliative Journal…it stated that those who were dying and experienced much care and hope by those caring for them were in less need of opioids and other forms of pain relief.

    • Marie Halligan

      I agree.When I was training as a nurse in England in the 80s,the old-style hospital based training,I obviously nursed a lot of patients dying of terminal diseases. Euthanasia was out of the question,but what I realised caused most suffering was some nurses reluctance to give pain-relief (because opiates dampen the Respiratory Response )and some junior doctors reluctance to prescribe. With the just a bit more study of the physiology of pain and pain control and analgaesia,one realises that most of the pain can be alleviated or at least lessened. The other important thing is good nursing care, keeping the patient clean,as comfortable as possible, guarding their dignity and honouring their humanity by spending what bit of time one can with them-talking,listening or just holding their hand.Terminal care was called TLC- Tender Loving Care and that sums it up really. The Hospices excel at it,all the nurses and doctors have extra training and education in pain control and care of the dying and are experts at it. What we need is more hospices and pain-control trained staff. But that costs money,doesn’t it?? You know what I am getting at;doing away with people is much cheaper than caring for them and trying to ease their suffering!

      • Julie

        Yes, so true and appreciate your experience as well.

        I had one case where the patient wanted to be alone, and I went to the desk to request more morphine and they pulled so many cups…shocked to find this was her next ‘dose’.

        From what I have been taught, morphine does not kill per se. It does hasten the dying process a little.

        But I have been on some cases serving seculars, and there were two where the morphine was administered by family or the dying wanted to starve himself…but kept living. The one who tried to die faster by starvation also had gained nationwide attention for his observations as a dr that morphine can extend life by reducing pain…however, not too long either…minutes? … hours…? days….? Inclonclusive.

    • Nan

      All Catholics are supposed to support life from conception to a natural death so condemning euthanasia should be universal (although I realize that may not be true)/

      • Julie

        They don’t. The progressive/liberal priests think we are now in the post sexual time of the Church and expect abortion and contraception to be legalized as well as second marriage.s

        Christianity began within the Roman empire and their sexual behaviors and treatment of women and children and the sick….it is like we are going full circle, and devout Christians uphold life, are open to new life, and stay in marriage.

  • From the article:

    “For one thing, Lifeway’s Scott McConnell says too many Christians are not thinking like Christians.”

    No. It is the lack of unified, central and harmonious authority that leads the way. American evangelicals are a hodgepodge mess when it comes to theology.

    • Julie

      I just read a comment from a Pope Clement…this one, If I recall– lived in the 300’s and he said Christianity doesn’t do well with alot of things, comforts.

      • He is not wrong.

        • Julie

          Another one to find.

        • Julie

          Can’t find him. Clement III lived shortly before the First Crusade.

          FYI: But witnessing your deep studies and observations, I came to this site that lays out in a clear way, and they just don’t use the term Universal….but the Universal Roman Catholic Church with all the patriarchs, with flow charts, explanation and the breakdown of them down to the various other rites (churches.)

          The next part covers the popes – and the times they lived in..the politics and wars, and different countries governing within the Universal Church.

          Just shows how complex the Roman Catholic Church in its universal sense truly is.

          http://www.frieisian.com/popes.htm

          You will come out of this study with college level in depth understanding.

      • Christendom

        Here is the perfect example of this truth Julie. Listen to this example of a persecuted Chinese Catholic who migrated to America (20 minutes):

        http://bulldogcatholic.org/122516-god-risks/

        • Julie

          Thanks. We have it too too easy. I think my faith is pretty weak.

          • Christendom

            It’d be cause for concern if you felt any different than that Julie 😉

            That’s why we freely choose to direct our wills and lives to Christ as best we can trusting in His strength and grace to see us through. When we fall into the temptation of relying on ourselves we either fall into the pride of success or a perpetual cycle of failure in the face of our weakness. When we depend upon Christ we know our successes are gifts from God and our failures are trials sent by Him to purify us and ultimately serve a greater good.

            Salvation is a lifelong work even for those deathbed confessors. They life lived up until that moment led them to a final act of repentance.

            Christ will continue to correct and refine our character until the day we die, as long as we continue to allow Him too in obedience to God and Church.

            The way is narrow.

          • Julie

            Thanks….but just reading all these terrible things already scare me and I wonder if I look at them too much.

            Remember Christ encountering the Holy Women while He carried His cross to Calvary, and spoke of the green wood that cries….He sounded like He was telling them to hold back their tears in light of the coming destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora.

            I try to remember to pray for strength to escape the consequence of His justice.

          • Christendom

            I guess “balance” is the key word, which of course, is easier said than done. Christ also said:

            “Matthew 6:31-34

            31 Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed?

            32 For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things.

            33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

            34 Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.”

            It’s best not to get too bogged down in the evils of tomorrow. The evils of today are enough.

            Take Rescue Christians for example. If they spent all their time worrying about the Christians they couldn’t save they’d never have the time, energy and resources to save the ones they could.

            One of my favourite prayers, this one gifted to us by an Evangelical Christian, is the Serenity Prayer:

            “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

            It’s good that you struggle with these fears and doubts. Christ’s apostles went through this same struggle. One of many examples we could cite is when Peter began to walk on water and then fell through lack of faith. What did Peter do when he fell? He reached out to Christ.

          • Julie

            My priest friend, who later became a bishop, told me that unity fragile…fleeting.

            Unity is more a rarity than division.

            I believe in purgatory.

          • Christendom

            I consciously look at the Church through the eyes of an illiterate peasant who has been blessed with sound oral instruction. Why?

            Christ’s essential teachings must be simple so that all can understand. Not everyone is or can be a theologian. In fact, the vast majority of us aren’t theologians.

            Christ said the gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church. This means no matter how bad things look to the human eye or become on the ground, hell won’t prevail. No thesis is needed to understand this truth.

            Christ also said Peter is the rock of Church. This means no pope has the power to destroy the papacy. We’ve seen morally corrupt and physically assassinated popes come and go throughout our history, and the chair of Peter itself has survived.

            Christ Himself stated stated that He reveals his truths to the humble and this often means bypassing learned worldly scholars (and sometimes Christian ones) because those who are puffed up with pride don’t see.

            We call religious belief “faith” for a reason. My faith is anchored in the flawless and unparalleled genius of the Catholic ethic and doctrine. However this pristine and sublime logic also serves as a launchpad for me to believe in Christ’s greater promises with respect to salvation, the ultimate destiny of the Church, the Mysteries, etc, even in the face of internal friction and/or chaos.

            We certainly can and are encouraged to pray for the Pope, Bishops and clergy. However the Churches ultimate destiny has already been assured by Christ Himself (in the flesh) and the Churches doctrine affirms this.

            This is the angle I approach these challenges from Julie.

            May God Bless you and keep you.

          • Julie

            You and I more or less are on the same plane….active contemplatives….I am glad my faith and understanding are where they are on, because it is clear what we believe, and my faith does not depend on any person outside of Christ.

            But Christian fellowship, be it only 1 or 2, suffices.

            God bless and keep you as well!

        • Julie

          I used to pray for the cardinal imprisoned in China, the Mindzenty Report keeping us in the know of those who suffered for their faith around the world. Phyllis Schafly is gone now.

  • FlyingDutchman

    This is a tricky one though. I am definitely against the liberal euthenasia practises as are currently legal in holland and especially switzerland. However many suffering and dying are kept alive by machines and medicines while if those people faced their diseases naturally they would ve been dead a lot sooner. I am taking miracles out of the equasion as they happen in both cases. A person who is dying of lets say cancer in their last hour, on morfine, if the dose goes slightly up they die and if it goes down (or no morfine)they also die. Or another example. My sister was part of last season’s my last summer (the dutch version) zo lang ik leef. One of the participants the only other Christian a Catholic actually (in holland i think there d be more catholics pro euthenasia than traditional protestants and evangelicals -christen unie and sgp voters-) decided to have assisted suicide. He was scheduled for a monday but they werent sure if he d make the appointment think they even moved it forward a couple of days as he was this ill. As a complete wreck basically held together by medicines he had an icecream and they gave him an injection. Humanly speaking without treatment he wouldve die 2 years or so earlier, with the treatment and without the ‘help’ he may ve lived a day longer maybe just a few hours probably on morfine. Is this assisted suicide unfortunately the programme bosses used it several times to promote the assisted suicide agenda with this. I know that assisted suicide is a slippery slope, just this month the Dutch liberals tried to soften the rules and on debates online i see that many christians are sympathic about it as its more humane. Personally i am strongly opposed to assisted suicide however would ve sympathy for someones choice as in the real life example mentioned above. Its similar to a situation where a young baby inside its mother is dying and the mother is dying as well the only way to possibly save the mother s life is to take the baby out. You d be speaking about a fraction of a percent of the total number of abortions. As prolifers these are 2 examples at both euthenasia and abortion you may debate about anything else is simply wrong.

    • Marie Halligan

      As an ex-nurse with 19 years working in the NHS, I have to say there’s a big difference between withdrawing artificial life-extending interventions,such as ventilation, when there is no hope of recovery and the deliberate ending of a human life. Even when patients who won’t recover are taken off a vent,for instance, when I was a nurse,they still received full nursing care and that included hydration by I.V. and nutrition by naso-gastric tube if the patient was fully dependent and pain releif, of course, as needed. Sometimes,with patients with terminal cancer, a dose of analgaesia might carry them away but it was an unintended side-effect.The objective was to control their pain, not kill them. Euthanasia is a deliberate,pre-planned intervention with the aim of ending someone’s life,of killing them. It is therefore murder,but withdrawing artificial interventions from a patient who is not responding and has minimal chance of recovery,so long as they are cared for properly after the withdrawal,is not done in order to end their life and so is not euthanasia,it’s not murder.Stopping the artificial extending of life but still caring for the patient for as long as they naturally live isn’t euthanasia.It costs money though- I suspect this is a major driving force behind the pro-euthanasia movement.

      • Julie

        Exactly. And the Church does not support extraordinary means to keep a person alive.

        I know of some Catholic families who don’t want their family members to go, especially their mothers…who are ready to go.

        My mother died suddenly. My dad was mad at the dr for not doing more…but her heart muscles just gave out. We cried so much. My sister and I both had an interior vision of her, seeing her young again with dark hair, very wise and telling us she was alright…didn’t help too much…she was so kind…just missing her so much so suddenly as well….

        • Nan

          The problem is that doctors can only do so much and if there’s no healthcare directive must take action. My mom had a stroke 5 yrs ago and absent a healthcare directive put her on a ventilator. When she awoke from her coma, she was livid but there was nothing we could do as all 4 of us didn’t agree on what to do.

          She wasn’t expected to live; if she by some chance lived, she wasn’t expected to awake from her coma, breathe on her own or have any cognitive function. One of the first questions she asked was whether I’d paid her property tax bill! Her stroke was a few days before it was due.

          She was paralyzed and had to be in long-term care but was pretty sharp; when she was still muddled, she self-diagnosed as delusional. I asked if she’d told medical staff and she hadn’t so when the nurse came in, I suggested she tell her what she told me. Then a psychiatrist came to talk to her and she was put on anti-psychotics for about a month. She was an OT in psych so knew bad through process when she experienced it.

          • mspip

            true doctors can only do so much. sometimes it is enough some times not.

        • mspip

          perhaps this vision was to give you and your sister comfort at the time of her death.

          • Julie

            It was miraculous in that it was identical and we have opposite personalities.

            We grieved alot for her because she had in some ways a tragic life. Her father died when she was 6, later hit by a car same age, and her internal organs damaged. They didn’t know she could have children.

            I was 3 when she had a nervous breakdown and I didn’t see her for 6 months and my grandmother and dad cared for us. It could have been related to loosing her dad and having a baby. She came home with white hair and acne. She had another when I was in 8th grade and came home one day to see the dr’s report:….schizo, catatonic, depression. She came home quicker because of the new meds.

            One day so many years later she was shopping with my sister, and she said, ‘You know what? I died a long time ago’. People who met her considered her a living saint. She was a beautiful woman when she was first married.

            She died of a sudden, massive heart attack we weren’t expecting and some man killed his wife in front of the hospital where she was dying and was afraid for me to go….but I did. the man lived 2 doors down so all the police cars were out there, put spotlights on us going into our house….I cried so much for her and her life.

            My girlfriend took me to the Coast for 3 days to in part share with me she knew my mother was in heaven and was watching over me…and a saint.

            Thank you.

          • mspip

            you’re very welcome. my mother died suddenly from car accident when i was 9 years old. very shocking and sad for all of us, caused many problems. it is hard to lose mothers, if they are young or old.

          • Julie

            So true!

      • mspip

        makes sense.

    • Julie

      The Church does not allow extraordinary devices to keep one alive.

    • Nan

      The Church doesn’t prohibit treatment of the mother that results in baby’s death if baby’s death isn’t the objective.

      I don’t know what the rules are in the Netherlands but in the US it’s possible to write a healthcare directive that doesn’t allow the hospital to take extraordinary measures to prolong their life.

  • Raph Sebastian

    Euthanasia is a Catholic non-negotiable. There are five non-negotiables in Catholic teaching.

    NO TO:

    ABORTION
    HOMOSEXUAL “MARRIAGE”
    HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH
    HUMAN CLONING
    EUTHANASIA or ASSISTED SUICIDE

    • Kamau41

      Exactly right Brother Sebastian. Thank you for re-emphasizing the Church’s solid teachings on the five non-negotiables.

    • mspip

      none of that should be in Christians, whether catholic, protestant or independent.

      • Raph Sebastian

        I wish it was, but not so in reality.

  • luis

    I read a study a couple months back that showed 48% of Catholics and 47% of Protestants were ok with homosexuality. It’s safe to say both churches are falling away.

    • Grace Ziem

      Yes, it helps to have the numbers for multiple groups, not just the “other guys”.

    • Kevin Nicholson

      “‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At the proper time I will tell the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.”’”” Matthew 13:29-30

    • Grandmere

      Jesus said there would be a falling away. We all need to examine ourselves to make sure we are in the faith and fear of the Lord.

    • mspip

      could be falling away if they will allow that, it is sodomy.

    • Marie Halligan

      My cousin, who is a Mass goer,fell out with me because I was against the legalisation of gay ” marriage” here in Ireland.I still can’t quite believe the YES lobby won and I suspect vote-rigging because the pro-YES propaganda by the government was alarming and NO voters were outright bullied by the pro-YES crowd, it was disgusting. The country isn’t anywhere near as pious and devout as it was but the Churches are still packed at Mass. Something’s gone wrong in somewhere, BADLY wrong

      • luis

        Same thing happened here with black evangelicals in the last election. How you can support a candidate who openly stated she was for partial birth abortion during the debate and still call yourself a Christian is beyond comprehension

        • Marie Halligan

          I know,it’s beyond beleif in a way isn’t it?I’d almost feel like asking them could they kill a newborn baby with their own bare hands? Because by voting for that woman, THAT’S what they would be accepting and supporting- some doctor actually deliberately and in a pre-planned, cold blooded manner, KILLING newborn babies! It is a true horror!

  • Darren Neufeldt

    As I live in constant pain and take many pain medications throughout the day, I refuse
    to look at assisted suicide as an option. On my bad days I have said to my wife to “kill me now, and to rip out my spine or leg(s)” in the heat of the moment, but she knows that these are said in frustration more than anything else. If anything, these moments have given me a sense of what our Good Lord suffered for my sins, and I am hopeful that it has brought me closer to God as I prayed for relief.

  • Grace Ziem

    Actually, the Bible does prophesy a 7 year tribulation, but we are glad you were able to “wait on the Lord” and use your reprieve well to bless others :).

  • Kevin Nicholson

    God’s peace Christina…the purpose was to ease pain not to kill your mother…that is the distinction (performed with a good conscience).

  • Julie LaBrecque

    (“Traditional Christian teaching says God holds the keys to life and death,” Scott says.) caveat…but not as regards the use of artificial birth control. What does this spokesman expect?

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Trevor’s point that you missed is the whole divided-up theology of Protestantism – they claim to use the Bible ( as if every Christian ever had one) as their guide, but they refuse the teachings of the Church that Jesus Christ left on earth to TEACH.

  • Julie LaBrecque

    Yes – it is all there in seed form –

  • “Agreed……”

    Should have quit while you were ahead.

    “[…] however, the same could be said about the vast majority of Catholics,” and ” I wonder what percentage of Catholics would support assisted suicide?”

    So which is it? “Vast majority” or “what percentage?”

    Like I said, you should have quit while you were ahead.

    “Not a big fan of these negative articles.”

    You don’t like it when articles shed some alarming light on the fact that orthodox theology are being chipped away? Then I suggest you go and read “Reader’s Digest” as you sit on the toilet instead of wasting my time or responding to my comment.

    • Raph Sebastian

      Boom!

      People do not realize that being Catholic is absolute, you are either Catholic or not. IF you disagree, or pick and choose what you like about the Catholic Church’s teachings, then essentially one is NOT CATHOLIC. There is a word for it, that was is — PROTESTANT.

      Being Catholic is being obedient to the LORD, His Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and the inherent authority therein.

      This often flies over the head of the willfully ignorant, who would associate bad Catholic behavior with all Catholics even those who are faithful and obedient.

      When one ask what percentage of Catholics approve of abortion or homosexuality or suicide or euthanasia the answer invariably MUST BE — NONE, ZERO not one single percentile. Those who approve are NOT CATHOLIC simple as that.

      One can continue to claim to be Catholic and even go to Mass every day or Sunday and receive the Eucharist but does not practice the teaching of the Church especially in areas of contraception, divorce, refusing to go to Confession, sexual promiscuity, lies, abortion, murder, fornication, adultery etc etc etc, then one unworthily receives the Body, Blood, and Divinity of the LORD and then brings judgment upon himself.

      It’s quite simple, but of course those who are willfully ignorant or worse improperly catechized do not know this.

      • No room for compromise. It’s God’s way or the highway to hell.

        • Kamau41

          Right on to that my Brother.

  • I get accused of having poor reading comprehension when it is your own comment that contradicted itself.

    The point I made is simply this – the evangelicals do not have a central authority whereas the Catholic Church does – the Magisterium. As a result, the number of evangelicals who support assisted suicide while the Catholic Church prohibits it outright.

  • “You can’t say that stuff here. They just refuse to listen to it.”

    Hound Dog. He says it. We allow him to say it just as we are allowing you to bark like a hound dog. To say “look so many sinners” therefore the church is gone means nothing. Its the oldest stupid argument which the OT tells us of David sinning, Israel sinning … yet God was still in control.

    Glad you found another puppy buddy to roam roundabout looking for bones. The beef is in the articles which you fail to deal with in detail. Happy bone hunting.

    • luis

      Wasn’t trying to imply the church is gone. I was just pointing out that the non biblical/ church teachings seem to be running rampant amongst both churches “followers” currently

      • Nan

        The Catholic Church uses both Scripture and Tradition. It is protestants who follow Martin Luther’s heresy.

  • O not that puppy again.

  • What? Someone threw you a bone and you caught it? Here a frisbee.

  • Very funny:

    “The central authority of the evangelical church has always been and always will be Christ himself. ”

    Which you seem to be representing in every comment you make.

    Learn how to crawl before you put a bone in your mouth:

    • Grandmere

      Happy New Year, Chef! Nice catch on those kids.

  • Kamau41

    No. Let’s set the record straight Hound. Your sorely mistaken about Catholics and what the Church actually teaches and you are just parroting what you and your anti-Catholic followers have come up with for the past 5 centuries.

  • Kamau41

    It’s definitely NOT the 50,000+ churches that exists today, which did NOT originate from Rome.

  • Raph Sebastian

    Too bad but even if you can cut and paste and replace Protestant for Catholic you still fail. Read the post again, if one approves abortion, suicide, homosexual “marriage” etc etc and go against Church teachings then they are not Catholic, which part of this don’t you get or just cannot get into your head?

  • mspip

    what book is this?

  • mspip

    hound is sarcastic and rude.

  • Raph Sebastian

    First learn to use paragraphs before replying. Next you make no sense, obviously you know nothing about the authentic Christianity, which is the Catholic faith.

    You are here to spout off and make what you think are witty comments. You fail over and over in the the very few comments you have made here.

    For me it’s like interacting with a three year old kid who knows not much but tries to make whatever he knows like the absolute truth. It’s absolutely juvenile and utterly infantile to be interacting with you.

  • Marie Halligan

    The Pope is only a human representative,a creature,subject to God like all of us. Jesus Christ is the head of our Church too. I am too tired to argue.Can we just wish each other and all here a Happy Christmas and the peace of Christ in our hearts? God bless.

  • Marie Halligan

    Those things wouldn’t have been around 2000 years ago,granted,but they would come under prohibitions of tampering with nature and human life, which is a sin becuase it’s playing God,interfering with the way He has set up the Laws of Nature!

    • Grandmere

      That hound is baying at the moon. I think I will give myself a New Year’s gift and BLOCK HIM.

      • Marie Halligan

        Lol,fair play Grandmere,I think you have the right idea; these types can be a small bit withering after a while!

        • Hound

          You won’t find me “small” or “withering” any time soon, my friend. Only at the feet of Christ.

          • Marie Halligan

            I didn’t mean YOU are small and I sincerely hope we do both meet at the feet of Christ and be sister and brother in Christ.I am withered by the constant arguing!

      • Why Grand. Imagine having a falafel party at a park where everyone is socializing sipping on seven up while servants pass around falafels and horderves. In this scene you must have a hound sniffing and running roundabout picking up whatever scraps the guests accidentally drop on the ground and its low unheard bark begging for a scrap. Why not keep it in the script?

        • Grandmere

          Actually, I never did block him. We just got him from the pound so I figured we should see if we could house break him instead of consigning him to a doghouse out back.

  • Marie Halligan

    What I understood he was saying is NOT that there are no people who regard themselves as Catholics who are pro-euthanasia,etc.,but that if they ARE pro-euthanasia or any of the things prohibited by the 5 Prohibitions, they are NOT faithful Catholics. I understand he is saying that as Catholics,we can’t cherry pick and still truthfully call ourselves Catholics. I don’t doubt there are people who think of themselves as Catholics who don’t agree with the 5 Prohibitions, see my post about my cousin,but what he’s saying is they have fallen out of cohesion with the Church and therefore aren’t true Catholics- does that make sense now? Can we please just stop arguing!

    • Julie

      I don’t know any Catholics who are for euthanasia. The issue for many is the use of contraception.

      • Nan

        But their failure to be open to life means they’re not really Catholic either.

      • Marie Halligan

        No I don’t know any personally either and I hope I never do. Sadly, there seem to be Catholics around who think gay marriage is OK and the pro-abortion lobby here in Catholic Ireland is alarming. I suspect most of them are lapsed or complete atheists but how their Catholic upbringing and education,( almost every child in the R.o.I gets a Catholic education at school at least), doesn’t imbue them with a profound sense of the humanity of the unborn and the sanctity of human life, I don’t know. Of course, there is a LOT of outside influence and MONEY in the militant pro- abortion and gay lobbies but what I can’t understand is, how come the faith most people in the R.o.I. were reared in ,doesn’t help them set clear enough boundaries around these issues. Hopefully euthanasia is just a step too far for even the most lapsed!

        • Julie

          I heard it was an American from an Irish Catholic family who brought the death culture to Ireland when it was reeling from the clergy abuse. Our pastor from there showed the congregation many years ago his hands scarred by the beatings of the Christian brothers there.

          I went to parochial school here in the USA and the Irish sisters were abusive and harsh to us, that the immigrant Jesuit parish priest had them come to his church for a meeting with the parents about their concerns for us.

          I thought I would never again put my own children in parochial school. But when the time came with the death culture taking over everything, the school was a gem among Catholic schools, with daily Mass and an Irish American pastor who had a degree in business. We consider those days the good ol days.

          But to this day I avoid that particular order. I met with an American sister for spiritual discernment about joining a lay group, she its director, and she made me cry and walking out, she looked so proud of herself.

          My women’s group had some coming to share and I would not come.

          A priest told me that they don’t see much good fruit coming from these secular institutes and that particular one was all supporting illegal immigration and very left wing political….never again.

          So you have to endure in the Lord until the end and I have my own days ahead of me to still grow in faith with Him. We pray for all, and hopefully many in Ireland will come back to the faith.

          I did, and it was my prayers to St. Patrick, no less, who helped me restore my faith, I considering him the father of my soul and he died long before Islam.

          Yes, we pray for purity of faith to return to the Irish.

          I work with Jewish people and they told me they like the Irish and Italian the best.

          • Marie Halligan

            Ah yes,I had forgotten about the culture of abuse in schools and institutions here-my parents only completed National school and they were beaten, but by lay teachers; I was born and reared in England and at my Catholic Infants and Junior Schools, we were treated OK for the most part,some teachers nicer than others and some Corporal punishment but not beatings and only one nun,the Headmistress of the Infant School,who also came to my girls grammar school to give the Catholic pupils after-school Catholic R.E. .No beatings though and none of our priests ever touched us never mind beat or molested us,so I suppose it’s easy for me to forget how bad some kids had it and how it would distort ones’perception of the Faith. Those cruel religious have a lot to answer for,haven’t they? I did lapse for many years too though I was never an atheist and my experience of our Faith is mostly benign.Your experiences sound quite harsh Julie,you have not had it easy,Bab! I would love to have a good long chat with you about it all,I’m really interested in what you have to say;I am just recovering from a nasty does of the flu at the moment,but when I am better maybe we could talk more if that’s OK with you?I am starting to type my words all jumbled up,LOL!

  • Grandmere

    Yes. They have. Since it’s 2016 I will give you a little wiggle room. But who else was there? Certainly not Protestantism.

  • Julie

    The prosperity gospel…?…,

  • Julie

    Little churches are good. I have some devout Protestant friends…we are in communion, but we worship differently, but have the same basic values of Christianity.

    The Church, however, provides us great teachings going way back to the ancients that are easily available and help clear up alot…most based on reference to Scripture, others to Councils that had to come together to deal with faulty theology about Christ.

    • Nan

      Julie, are you actually claiming that Catholics are in communion with protestants? That’s simply untrue.

      • Julie

        Not at all, but I have experienced a deep and spiritual relationship with Protestants who share the same vision with me that reflect our faith in Christ, and pray for each other…they all liking those small little Protestant churches where they are very humble and Christ centered.

  • Julie

    ?? We have the apostolic teaching, the Early Church Fathers, the Councils, the catechism, the Septuagint translation as our foundation which is the most accurate of all going back to before Christ, the one He and the apostles used, the liturgy as form of worship….the hierarchy, and the Creed.

    All objective, concrete.

    What Ralph is getting at because of its objectivity, the consistent transmission of faith through the teaching Magesterium of the Church through the Holy Spirit that began at Pentecost…

    You either believe or don’t.

    So Catholics who dissent from our faith based on the fullness of Christ, not just parts, are not Catholics and their disbelief puts them outside of Christ Who is the Life of the Church.

    Christ IS the LIving Word of God, Logos, the essence, the Alpha and Omega of Scripture…we consume the Word…that is made into Flesh of the Lord…why we have the altar and tabernacle….Christ among us.

  • Julie

    Get a Catholic Catechism and find out what we truly believe, not that which is adversarial.

  • Julie

    Well, we have not really been persecuted like others, and we have had it too easy.

    The road to hell is wide and easy.

  • Julie

    Be fruitful and multiply.

    Sin of Oman.

    The Church does not cherry pick the Bible but approaches it in whole…because..it is Logos…Christ Himself Who is the Sum of Scripture.

  • Julie

    Don’t be resentful. If you would only take a little time to find out what Catholics believe, then you would understand.

  • Julie

    Christ stands before the heart of every person.

    What you do to a homosexual person because of his orientation, you do to Christ. We don’t abuse and put down any human being.

    We affirm the presence of Christ Who stands before them.

    Orientation is not the same as committing the act.

    When we are around homosexual persons, we consecrate them to Christ with love and compassion and ask Him to put their minds and souls in the right order.

    About the violent perverted ones…we tend to God’s will in our daily lives and don’t go near anything that offends Him.

  • Julie

    The last days for us is indeed our own death and passing from this world.

    You are a great testimony …. I know of those who tried to die from starvation or more morphine, and they wouldn’t die…until the Lord decided……..

  • “Come on Dude”

    Grandmere is not a dude, dude.

    “We had this talk before : The Church of Christ is the Body of Born Again Believers”

    Can you name me one born again believer between 100 AD to 1500 AD?

    “They didn’t give us the Bible -Jews did”

    Can you tell us which books were decided to be put in the New Testament and who decided which ones go in the New Testament and which ones were rejected? And can you please provide your information from reliable sources?

  • Grandmere

    Wow! I had no idea Bingo was ungodly. Is Bunco okay? I guess that one is out too as I hear it’s played with dice.

  • Nan

    Is that what your sect teaches you? Just because we don’t cherry-pick verses that we can rattle off out of context, you think we don’t learn scripture? We learn it in context, in part due to the Gospel proclaimed every Sunday (and every day of the week), which is done in context, in 3-year cycles.

    Not a fan of random Protestants proclaiming they know what the vast majority of Catholics do, think or believe.

  • Nan

    The Catholic Church wrote the Bible that you claim we know nothing about. The Bible in which Christ gave the keys to the Kingdom to Peter, told him and the Apostles that they had the power to loose and bind.

    Did you ever wonder why Protestants are told to rely only on the Bible? So they can’t learn Truth as stated in early Church Fathers.

    We have a magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit so we don’t fall into the same sorts of errors that protestants do, you know, claiming that we have little faith. It is because of the magnitude of our faith that we follow the magisterium.

  • Nan

    Sharing Truth in Charity is one of the things we’re called to do so yes, you may speak on behalf of the Church.

    • Well, I thank you, then.

  • Nan

    Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.

    The Church is the biggest provider of social services worldwide. That’s a hellofalot of bingo!

  • Nan

    Really? St. Paul was Jewish? The Bible you use has its roots in the Catholic Church. The epistles and synactic Gospel were written by Catholic saints; you know, the guys Martin Luther didn’t think we needed.

  • Nan

    God never says that following Him is a bed of roses. There’s nothing wrong with offering your suffering for the poor souls in purgatory rather than killing yourself in contradiction with God’s plan.

  • Hound,

    How could you say what you are saying here without showing proof? Sure the victims are in high majority Catholic or Orthodox, there are Evangelicals persecuted as well. We aid them too. We did in Pakistan when the Muslims bombed the Anglicans. We were also able to regain to the Anglicans the state monies stolen by Anglican bishop and give it back to the victims. Bonhoeffer was Protestant. I do not see him as “anathema”. I see him as “martyr”. Christ is the finally judge to all these issues.

    So what is all this crap about “no one judges Walid”?

    Heck I try to admit my errors when I find them. My coming article includes Bonhoeffer and in my last article I admitted I have made some errors.

    Heck, we were stupid to support PEGIDA and now we don’t. In fact we expose them. We learn from our mistakes. We are only human.

    Actually the question should be “no one should questions Hound”. What has Hound done to aid his fellow brethren?

    Here, I will prove my case. Show me a single comment where Hound admitted error? You won’t.

    But I can show you several articles where I admitted error.

    Now what are you going to do? You are hounding the wrong people. Why don’t you hound evil for a change? Is it because it is not about good versus evil with you?

  • “Yeah, we don’t really have to into the errors that that craplic church has committed in recent history, do we?”

    Sure we do. But what about the errors that crept into Hound lately?

    • mspip

      i am sure hound has some error…… reckon he would own up to it???

  • Julie

    You didn’t read others’ post and what people were trying to tell you.

    Yours came across as reactionary rather than reflective of theirs.

  • Julie

    So totally ridiculous! So ridiculous!

    What religion and church to you attend, because people like you who come across like this come out of sects about 100 years old or so with no sense or knowledge of what we believe, how we worship or anything else except you are better and superior.

    Yours never come on to share with us the true church you are in so others can join…just attack with no objective knowledge.

  • Julie

    They are members of the apostolic Catholic and Orthodox Churches. They have maintained their faith for over a thousand years and believe like us.

  • Julie

    So you are saved? Christ called us to pick up our cross and follow Him until the end of our days.

    We cannot claim we are saved, not until we are in His arms in heaven. Each day should be a struggle, and many times the hour of death, satan comes to snatch us from the Lord accusing us of past sins.

  • Where you are in error Hound is that we are not divisive. We defend you attack. Keep that in mind. And if in doubt just peruse the internet for all the anti-Catholic garbage that is out there and then go find the Catholic websites that attack Protestants. They are so few.

    Do some math Hound.

  • So please point Hound what would you like us to moderate? I mean show us the quotes of our error and we will be glad to tone it down if untrue. Can you do that for me?

  • Cutthroats? Did you not realize that you first have to go through an initiation of some blood letting when you first entered in with a lip?

    • Hound

      How about an answer to my question: “will I be able to enter heaven as a non catholic?”

      • Hound, why don’t you ask tough questions for a change. Here, I will answer your question with a question, Jesus style: for over a thousand years before Luther, can you find anyone who chose a different path than the Catholic theology and in your view this person would enter heaven?

        You see you are unable to answer this question.

        But your inability to answer destroys your own argument since it would be unnecessary to divide and split as your Luther did.

        But following Luther makes a further disaster for your argument, since your argument would be that Jesus failed to build His church for 15 centuries until Luther showed up. This in itself would make Luther and not Jesus as savior since it was Luther who built the true church.

        So chew on this and think, then respond.

    • Hound

      You guys are all about “initiations”.

      • Yes. Test the spirit could mean to put you on the spiritual rake. Remember, you say we are the Inquisitors.

  • Asked and answered. You asked twice and had little patience. You will go on the rake, again.

  • Julie

    Who said that?

    The Church provides us the fullness of faith in Christ — Scripture, ours the one referenced by Christ Himself, Christ’s choice for worship: the liturgy where Christ is offered up as atonement for sin, the hierarchy of the episcopacy…the bishops who are shepherds over the local church and enforce right way of believing and tradition of living out, and the profession of Creed – the only perfection attainable in this life by the Church comprised of sinners, including all those in authority.

    You should get a catechism, start with the Prologue.

    The Prologue provides you the perspective of how we look at Sacred Scripture, the foundation of belief in Christ and why. Then the catechism is divided up in parts: Beginning with the breakdown of the Creed. It goes on to the sacraments, Christ Who ministers directly to us through the His ministers His life in Him, the summation of the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity…where He lives among us within the tabernacle in altars around the world, worshipped in the Daily Sacrifice for all sin in every place committed each day in atonement to the Heavenly Father….this being a very different understanding and vision of what true worship is.

    The catechism then breaks down the 10 commandments in great depth, and talks of the sins of pride and presumption and despair…much there to ponder. The last is on prayer, centered on Our Lord’s Prayer, the Our Father.

    Also, you can browse through the index of fine print….and see 1.5 pages of lines all defining from many different perspectives of what makes ‘Church’.

    Then there is the communion of saints, our documented history of the saints going back 2000 years. And they pray for us all the time for our perseverance and ongoing conversion of the Lord.

    If a bishop is not fulfilling his duties, he is eventually removed. P Benedict was removing a bishop/priest per month during his pontificate.

    Now back to salvation. It is a grace to believe in Christ. It is a grace to believe and accept His Church as mother and guide who nurtures us to Him and helps lead us to heaven and eternal life.

    There are many good Christians, we call them our separated brethren. A Trinitarian baptism incorporates you into the Body of Christ and in the broadest sense, into the Church.

    If a person is acting on the grace given Him in Christ, is grounded in charity, and lives charity, denies himself daily to put on the new man in Christ, he is united with us in baptism and faith in Christ, and yes, we pray for our separated brethren to come into communion with us.

    The problem comes up when we tell other protestants what we truly believe, and they come back insistent on some false and evil narrative, and then the trouble begins.

    We have no right to judge others or else we be condemned.

    The Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Scripture…including the passage on Oman in the OT…in regards to contraception, etc. The Church looks at the Word of God from its whole, not as a book or drawing out particular passages.

    No human being can do such and be accurate.

    It took many people and many years for the Church to assemble the books of Scripture appropriate for public revelation.

    We cannot say the Word of God is 100% accurate because it is written with human hands and coming from particular times and conditions.

    The tradition of faith — how the Apostles not only taught us Scripture, they also laid down the practice of how we believe and practice…this is the ‘T’, the large T of Tradition.

    Small traditions come and go or are reflective of particular patriarchal cultures in the Latin and Orthodox rites.

    So I have given you a perspective of how whole and inclusive the Church is of our whole life and upholding the integrity of the word of God.

    Every doctrine, 2865 of them are referenced to Scripture or to Councils that deal with specific misunderstandings and misapplications of the Word of God in daily life, as well as administrate issues of the priestly and religious orders, meaning the Church itself is self reforming.

    In America you are witnessing modernism enter into the Church. A priest told us that the 6 week fast during Advent and Lent, where you have one main meal with two snacks, is the orthodox way. But it is our bishops who have made church practice easy….and not countering materialistic, life is easy culture we live in. We are seeing this won’t last long.

    So what i am trying to say is that there is indeed compromise with the world in Western Catholic churches right now, and have bureaucratic issues….alot because the Church is so big. It is big because Christ is calling all to Him, it is 2,000 years old, the patriarchs and their cultures are so complex that are connected to their own histories and political governing….

    And yet the faith is simple when lived at the local level.

    So it comes down to a choice….would you believe it is a grave sin to miss Sunday Mass for a Catholic…60 minutes once a week on the Lord’s Day to honor Him?…Do you want to be fed not only by the Word, but by His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity that transcends any compromising bishop or priest, or what appears, is a confusing pope? We have all the supports on hand that transcend any in leadership. And we have the communion of saints, their testimonies as the answer to the testimonies of those who were faithful in the Old Testament.

    Where is the testimony of saints that are documented elsewhere? Where are the sacraments, where are the theological teachings, the development of faith, of counselling and teaching in times of great confusion — that unite us? and not separate us…and allow us to be salt to the earth and not bend with the reeds?

    So the question goes back to what do you prefer to guide you??? Can you renounce your will, your way of looking at things, your way of controlling things so you can get yourself into heaven by believing in this or that…when there is so much more out there….and a greater communion out there that transcends time and space???

  • Julie

    The point being made is that there are heretical ideas that float into a community of believers.

    As Catholics we have pro life materials in our parishes, and the morality of the sanctity of human life is always there…or should be. About 20 years ago, it wasn’t.

    It was John Paul II who began clearing the Church out of so much of this. And I live in a diocese that is most liberal but with one of the most orthodox bishops in the country.

    And in every diocese, there are priests and religious who hold up the true faith but in the past were marginalized or removed from parishes…horrific where I used to live.

    So back to Luther and the Reformers, it came through them that vows could be broken and one could remarry.

    A Hebrew Catholic I know…they see Protestantism is the force that fragmented Christianity by personal interpretation, the breakdown of the family, abortion, contraception. I hear even some Orthodox churhes allow remarriage up to 3 times and contraception.

    Now there are forces in Rome in conflict with those who uphold the faith who are labelled conservative, when we know there is no liberal or conservative in the Truth, Jesus Christ, objective truth, no subjective relativism.

    But to break away from Christ’s Church, and it was clericalism that brought about the Protestant reformation along with nationalism, people live more for this life rather than the cross and they think they have easy salvation because they believe in the Lord and refuse to refine and develop their conscience.

    Good read, ‘Veritatis Splendor’, ‘The Splendor of Truth’, by John Paul II. This covers our duty to neighbor, our bodies the temple of the Holy Spirit, our conscience, what is imprinted on our conscience, detachment in gaining perfection. I don’t see these kinds of teachings in bible alone churches.

    So without sound solid teaching that looks back in history, just is for today….many times there are subtle heresies people don’t realize. I think I read you are aware of the heresy of the prosperity gospel.

    As a Catholic you have to pray and follow your conscience and if the priest or parish is not fulfilling your spiritual hunger to the depth of your being, that is something you need to talk to the priest about. I wrote down things for the new pastor, my desire to greater communion, etc. and the majority of the parish wanted more socials. But that is a sign for me to continue there and share my faith.

    If the priest is teaching error, you go to the bishop. If nothing is done, you will find priests who are on the same page to support your faith…and in time things are corrected or those in position leave.

    Heresy is extremely destructive to a society because it splits people up.

    Protestantism broke up the common faith of the family and it is primarily the Protestant countries who are going down in numbers. It is cafeteria catholics who are going down in numbers.

    But the Church does teach the full Gospel. It is all there in the sources I gave you that protect you from heresy. People who become Catholic later also say they feel they lost out on so much because learning your faith in the Church is ongoing.

  • Julie

    We call that presumption.

    And we don’t use the King James Version. Ours is based on the Septuagint that was put together 200 years before Christ by 70 rabbis who went to Egypt to prepare books of the bible for Emperor Ptolemy’s library.

    The Septuagint is the one Christ and His apostles used.

    You are looking at one single phrase and not connecting it to the rest of the Gospel, and even the Last Judgment.

    We are being called to a living faith that we are to live out one day at a time…and I dread Judgment Day in fear of the little Christ’s I ignored along The Way…’I was hungry and you did not feed Me, I was naked and you did not cloth Me’, I was in prison and you did not visit Me, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me….

    I cannot believe in a simple phrase that it will take me to heaven. My God is greater than that and the Kingdom of Christ is a heavy price to acquire.

  • Marie Halligan

    Well unless you yourself have donated as much as low-income Catholics all over the world have to feed, clothe and provide health care to the world’s poorest,I don’t think you have the right to accuse anyone!

  • Marie Halligan

    The Jews wrote and acclaimed the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, which proclaims Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, as Holy Scripture? Are you having a girraffe?If the Jews had even believed the NT,never mind wrote it,they wouldn’t BE Jews,except ethinically, they’d be Christians! You must be having a laugh! No one can be THAT daft- we certainly aren’t!

  • mspip

    hound, you are becoming a bit rude.

    • Hound

      Just look at NAN’s comment above mine. It’s heretical. I will be “rude” to heretical comments all I want. Doesn’t make me feel bad. There’s no future in believing what NAN said. That is exactly the type of thinking that sends folks to hell. This type of thinking is how Joseph smith started Mormonism. With any false belief it’s always “Christ plus something else” that is required to get those people to heaven. When, in fact, that is exactly what he preached against to the Sanhedrin and the religious system that was flourishing during his ministry. He destroyed that idea and they tried to destroy Him for it. How can you possibly tell me that i am mistaken? I am believing in the written Word. It doesn’t get any better than “out of the mouth of God”.

  • Julie

    The Jewish people did not follow sola scriptura but had people within their society who had God’s authority.

    God did not call us to personal interpretation, but to hold on fast to the teachings the Apostles gave us.

    So Christ began with a physical Church — He the life of the Church through Word and Sacrament, that is the same today as it was then, to His apostles, who in turn through the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands, their successors.

    Without the physical and spiritual Church, you get into sola scriptura or picking and choosing phrases and taking them out of context, as well as leaving the deposit of faith in Christ, one is entering into a place outside of the Church.

    Actually, when we commit mortal sin, we are outside the Catholic Church and cannot enter into communion until we have a sacramental confession.

    There is nothing to debate with the one, holy, Catholic, apostolic Church. But you debate when it comes to pastoral administration and how faith is translated into the times we live in. That is where the trouble and confusion and scandal starts.

    Just because a bishop is a successor of an apostle, does not make him perfect or guarantee his orthodoxy.

    So it gets down to us taking to time to know our faith.

    If you get hold of a Catholic Catechism, you start with the Prologue to get the context and see how we relate to the Word of God. And there are 2,865 doctrines of faith, each building on the other. So you have to look at the subtitle, know was before, and continue on.

    Some Mormons ingratiate on CCC460 where we become adopted sons and daughters of gods…we become as gods. Well they refuse to acknowledge the footnotes that refer to saints and teaching on the Eucharist….that it is no longer we that live but Christ living — and serving through us. They mix up partaking the life of grace in Christ vs their belief they become gods some day in eternal progression.

    Practically all our doctrines are referenced to Scripture; others refer to Councils who in later times, had to correct heresies or lack of clarity or misunderstandings of the Word of God.

    So bottom line is I don’t trust my self or my way of looking at things. I cannot judge even myself as St Paul says. Only God can.

    The next act of faith is renouncing one’s way of looking at things and accepting Christ’s will to live in His Church….which the interior expansive…

    A public sojourner shared with us he had a prophecy that Christ centered (not anti Catholic, etc. their main intent) Catholics and Protestants will some day reunited under One Shepherd. It will not witness any triumphantalism but more as a family reunion.

    And the other point he made is how critical it truly is for us to acknowledge the Blessed Mother Mary and her work in bringing us cloer to Christ and deeper into the Church.

    I have been a life long Catholic, my father was in the Benedictine monastery for 2 years, we had excellent books in our home, and it was a very simple home in a poor neighborhood. I always loved studying my faith and the saints and thinking about God and life and people and their condition. I just don’t see Protestantism providing all the resources I draw on to live out my faith.

    We pray for our separated brethren at Mass and for our unity. That is it. no antagonism, etc ever. We come for Christ alone.

  • Marie Halligan

    I wasn’t “bigging myself up” so how was I bragging?I was pointing out that you need to look at yourself and your own behaviour before you go accusing a whole group of people, over a billion of them, who COLLECTIVELY donate whatever they can afford to help the world’s poorest.And no,it’s not about HOW much,it’s a bout doing what you CAN and if all you can manage is to donate a few quid and you do that then good, or if you can go to the poorest areas and countries and roll your sleves up, which Catholics DO do, then good and if all you can do is point the finger and put people down, try to make them look like a shower of heartless so-and-sos when you don’t know hardly anything about them- how can you know the hearts of every single of the billion Catholics in the world?- then you haven’t a leg to stand on! I don’t go on Protestant or atheist threads and make sweeping allegations against them so why are you? You seem to have appointed yourself the judge and jury of Cathoilics.I think you just want the row to be honest!

  • Marie Halligan

    How am I prideful by pointing out a fact? I am not in the poorest demographic in the world,but then again,it’s none of your business how poor or well-off I am,is it?I wouldn’t dream of prying into your private financial affairs. You’ve given what you can,fair play! Nowhere did I say or even infer that no Protestants ever give to help the poor!

  • Marie Halligan

    They were religious Jews then converted to Christianity. They remained ethnically Jews and Christ incarnated as a Jew.I read it as you saying religious Jews wrote the Bible.If you meant ethnic Jews,I ‘m sorry,my mistake.

  • Marie Halligan

    Se my reply to Hound- if you mean ethnic Jews, then sorry,my mistake!

  • And you think you learned scripture?

    • Hound

      You should really wake up to the reality of what’s happening down on the ground, Walid. It’s a nice thought to think that the RCC or Protestantism has been doing well lately, but that simply isn’t true. You can cheerlead and pep talk all you want but the church has issues and they/we are gonna need to get it together to be effective. My statement had very little to do with how much scripture I do or don’t know. It was a simple observation of the spiritual health of the body. Guess I should’ve said that I consulted with a priest first. Maybe it would’ve had been a little more persuasive. What is with you folks that you think your not allowed to use your faculties to serve God?
      You make yourselves impotent. Just look through the past coversation a Ive had with some Catholics. Never any scripture references from their side. Pretty alarming really. A few have even said that we can’t trust the bible because it’s inaccurate. What say ye to that? Defend some of the positions of your followers…..with scripture, of course. I dare you. Truth is that you can’t use scripture to defend your faith and I would embarrass you when it comes to biblical knowledge. Just keep on thinking that everything is fine and dandy in the church. BIG MISTAKE.

  • “keen nose for a good piece of fiction, and that is precisely what comprises the bulk of your commentary. :)”

    Never seen you use a single scholar or original sources besides your clumsy interpretations.

    “Because, I was so dog gone good at catching radical Islamists. Uncanny talent really. Just had a knack for it, I guess. Always felt more like a gift from God than anything else. It was like I could get inside their minds. Bizarre place to be, for sure.” “It was like I could get inside their minds. Bizarre place to be, for sure.”

    Listen Hound,

    I hate to break it to you. We have an old Arabic proverb that says “who complements himself is usually a liar”.

    Had you had a keen nose you would have unlocked a ton of terrorist attacks, cases and issues as I did. I once picked a single name from a list of around three hundred names of whom I thought was the suspect in a situation where I did not know the person. I knew the terrorist from his name. Can you do that? I doubt that you are qualified to sniff drugs much to sniff bombs in an airport. You would probably make a nice pet for some elderly woman that you might bark at the Persian rug salesman knocking at the door thinking he was terrorist. So you do have some good use except that you always have your nose sniffing where it does not belong.

    Sorry, just an honest review. In my department you would be fired.

    “My wish is that someday you and I will spend some time together in the midst of our Lord and his Angels and laugh about this fading world of imperfection.”

    Now that sounds good. I know you have this idea that I am anti-Evangelical, I am not. I love discussing scripture with Evangelicals and I like many of their dogmatic stances on many issues.

    P.S: when we talk like men, no hard feelings okay? No need for tissues tears or blowing your nose okay?

    • Grandmere

      “I like many of their “dogmatic” stances. ROFL. It’s true.

  • Good grief Hound, STOP sniffing around.

  • Julie

    Thank you and appreciate your comments here.

    You may want to go to http://www.calledtocommunion.com that is comprised of highly educated protestants and Catholics, as well as sharing by those who did come into the fullness of faith in the Church, who are alot more knowledgeable about differences than myself.

    I just believe we are on much safer ground when we approach the Word of God collectively combined with the development of grounded theology that has developed from the tradition of the apostles — how the Word of God is to be understood and lived out.

    Doing so, if we persevere, and detach from all that connected to creatures and not to God, the result is that we encounter likewise the fullness of Christ Himself.

    For some, such can enter early in life, for others, such as myself, it came later…after my own tribulation…that came to me in my soul by the Holy Spirit when we moved to this diocese, a very different church culture than from that which I was born and raised in. I grew up in what is now an international city where it is very diverse, people are informal and inclusive and open minded and seem to get what people share to each other.

    Same faith and tradition, but a culture that also reflects in some way the secular, geographical culture, the response of those who kept their faith in a hostile environment, but developed personal strategies to persevere…meaning not too friendly to new comers and somewhat isolated, causing both good and bad experiences.

    Yes, I would recommend Called to Communion. They now have their own show on Sunday evenings where people call in with questions, and I think those catechizing on tv may be former protestants. It was interesting how they answered, ‘Once saved, always saved’.

    Professing once saved, always saved projects a sense that Christ’s death and resurrection was more penal punishment taken on Him, when the first event for us is that Christ’s death then allowed the Holy Spirit to become part of us, whereas before, He was not.

    In this context that the Holy Spirit is the first Effect of Christ’s death and resurrection, is yes forgiveness for our sins. But likewise, we must make up for all the wrong we have done by good works….as what we will be judged by Christ on the Last Day, ‘When I was naked, you covered Me, …’

    Some go so far to claim the 7 sacraments are works, when in fact…they fulfill Revelations of the Lamb with 7 eyes…the eye symbolizing God’s constant watch over us, the Lamb the fulfillment of the ram stuck on the bush that was used for sacrifice instead of Abraham’s son Isaac, and 7 representing all the concrete (no subjective relativism here) sacraments where Christ ministers to us by including us part of His mystical Body and Universal Church (Protestants with Trinitarian baptism become Catholic in the broadest sense), by the forgiveness of sins by representing the One High Priest through penance, through being nourished by His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in sacramental worship, marriage where Christ is the Binding Agent – you can say they marry Jesus, Holy Orders, the rite of Healing….the priests are physical representatives, but it is Christ Himself Who works through the sacraments to minister our entire/wholistic being and one or two friends who are on the same level as us personally (every Catholic parish has its members with equal number of opinions and spiritual levels but Christ is the Binding Agent).

    Called to Communion has a good article that came out in August 2009, called ‘Catholics are Ecclesial Deists’. We believe Christ is great enough, God enough to trust His Church to set up on ‘Treasures in Clay’ and the rest of us are supposed to pray and do penance for the clergy to keep them strong and pure….and this lack today we see is based on the spirit of the world that has entered the Church that compromises the Cross.

    God bless you!

    • Grandmere

      This website is awesome! Thanks so much Julie.

      • Julie

        It is best place. They come on EWTN Sunday evenings, now….been on the past year or so.

        Ecclesial Deists…really like that…wish fundamentalists could understand the Incarnation.

        I would recommend it because the whole spirit is communion…the walk in holiness our daily goal to the point our increase only will lead to type of decrease of ourselves but the way to manifest Christ to the world around us.

  • There were no hard feelings Hound. I have already profiled you when you first came on and I know you have thick skin if you get my drift.

    Let me guess, you’re between 25-35, African American?

    So what was the name of the governor in Anbar province you guys saved?

  • Julie

    I just visited and there is an article out on Dr. Rodney Stark, Lutheran, who wrote the book, ‘Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti Catholic History’. Alot of this was started by English nationalists after the Reformation, where English speaking Americans have held on to alot of the misconceptions.

    It can give you a background of why Catholics can appear short tempered…another to look up is Wiki and Anti Catholicism in the US. It goes back to England, and I felt so sad reading what was done to the Irish, not realizing just so many died in relation to their actual numbers. I do know that the English literally tried to destroy their culture and they made Gaelic illegal for awhile. My Catholic side is Irish, arriving here in the 1870’s.

    Keep you in prayer that the Lord guide you into a greater kingdom of Christ here on earth…the Holy Communion of the Trinity we are all called to grow into more every day.

  • Julie

    I would add one more, if you want to learn what Catholics believe — living in the Church, not in the cafeteria, I would stay here at this site. You see the really refined people demonstrating alot of scholarly, well founded thought and intentions that also takes on so much of salvation history of Christ.

    Another site to understand us better, and I think this is one of them that truly reflect the authentic Catholic today, especially in our secular country is http://www.RomanCatholicMan.com

  • So I was way off and my profiling stinks after all. Scottish? We are related. Gun clan. And you?

    Yes Maamoon Sami Rasheed al-Alwani was targeted by Al-Qaeda. Alright then, no old lady’s pet since you are a K9 pedigree 😉

    You have been promoted with medal 😉

  • Grandmere

    Good Hound. Not breaking the china. I think you should get a spot by the fireplace. If you get rambunctious, we’ll just let you out back to run and play for a while .